l'esmotion bruyante de ses entrailles sur vos Eglises qu' Il nous donne bien tost subject de glorifier son Sainct Nomen vostre delivrance Amen jesuis Monsieur Vostre tres-humble serviteur Morus Geneve 18. Septemb. 1644. To Monsieur Buchanan a Scottish Gentleman at London SIR I Have shewed our Consistory the writing which you were pleased to addresse to them by my meanes whereby after you have deduced the Causes of your Troubles and the divers obstacles that keep back so long the publique peace you demand of us our Advice and particularly as to the Opinions of certain of the Members of your Synod that maintaine that all Churches may be sufficiently governed by their Consistories every one a part without any dependance at all upon the greater Assemblies that have fuller Authority such as are the Colloques and the Provinciall and Nationall Synods To which Head I have direction from them to write unto you that as our bowels have ever earned in compassion toward you as concerning your misfortunes having been very sensible of the Afflictions of Ioseph and considered the sad face of your Churches as a calamity that touches us very neare however we beheld it but at such a distance so we can doe no other then redouble our sighes to understand how the Devill sowes his Tares during the darke night of your Affliction and stirrs up such diversity of Spirits who through a zeale voyd of Knowledge teare in pieces that seamelesse Coate of our Lord and Saviour Iesus Christ But that which touches us yet nigher is that into an Assembly that should have no other levell or ayme save such a peace as may be Holy such differences and misunderstandings should glyde and insinuate themselves as ought not to spring up amongst the Servants of God or that Christian Prudence ought at least to stifle in their very birth and first Rise following the Authority of the Holy Scripture the Custome of the Primitive Church the History of all Ages and the Experience of our owne Times For not to stay my selfe upon the name of Independents which they take or others call them by though it deserve for ever to be banished from among those that are Orthodox and to be left to the Councells or to the Bishop of Rome know we not that the internall Kingdome of our Lord Iesus Soveraigne Monarch of the Church which tends all to unity to consummate all in One as He is one with his Father cannot possibly entertaine an Union without a Communion of the Spirit And is not this Communion extreamly weakened by meanes of the distractions of the severall members of the Body and by reason of the obstruction of the Vessells which should serve her as so many Conduit-pipes How should this Spirit freely passe up and downe from one part of the Body to the other for the entire aggregation of the Body of the Saints by its influence if a singularity of Discipline as a thick Hedge interpose and choake up its way How should ever this Body grow into a perfect man according to the measure of that perfect stature of Christ in all its joynts if so be that the Foot have no need of the Eye if the inferiour members disjoynt and loose themselves from the noble parts and the noble despise the lesse honourable which yet are the more necessary How can the Building of the Spirituall Temple be advanced if the worke-men will needs doe their worke every one a part and will not maintaine a close correspondence and understanding the one with the other Or this Heavenly Army how shall it ever be able to vanquish its Enemies when we see its Squadrons breake thus their Files and that its Bounds are so badly ranged The Scripture often tyes the Power of the Church and her Beauty in one band together But neither the one nor the other of these Graces can ever preserve its strength if men come once to set at naught that exquisite prop and ornament that Generall Assemblies afford it There it is that the Church still re-inforces her selfe and where she makes her selfe formidable as an Army that marches with Banners flying in a kind of Holy Triumph There it is where her Countenance appeares glorious after she hath gotten out the staines and filled up the wrinckles wherewith particular Mens Opinions and passions had eclipsed her lustre There it is that her Head comes to shine as bright as though she were Crowned with Starres and that she beares in her Hands those two staves of Beauty and Bands And to save my selfe the labour of alleadging here the Policy of the Church of the Iewes wherein notwithstanding it is evident that the great Councell of the Sanhedrim had an authentique direction Paul and Barnabas in their Dispute touching Ceremonies had they their recourse to any private man or particular Consistorys or decided they the point in controversie every one by his private Authority as he conceived of it No they assembled a Councell wâ—â— should serve as a Glasse and patterne to all the posterity of the Faithful even to the end of the world When as the Celebration of Easter Day was so much controverted was every Church left to its liberty to celebrate it after its own guise and fashion No here were assembled I know not how many Synods wherein it was ordered that it should be celebrated constantly on the Lords Day So when Constantine saw how the Bishops the People banded themselves one against the other like to Symplejades to use Eusebius his terme he convocated the Nicene Synod as though he had leavyed an Army for God protesting thereupon according to the report of Theodores Socrates that he had not found out any other meanes to settle any thing that might be firm and holding But we should be forced to interweave all the Epoches of the Church if we should bring here all that might be brought to this purpose These things are so cleare and so well knowne that it should be unusefull to speak of them did they not justifie the proceedings held at this day every where in the Orthodox Churches For we know not of any one that in a Conformity with the Primitive Church accounts not her selfe happy when she can see the Servants of God gathered into an Holy Assembly regulating with common consent that which appertaines either to the Decorum of the service or else the points of Doctrine by reason and by Scripture which is farre above all Reason And for our selves since you are pleased to demand our Advice we protest to all the world how great Enemies soever we are of Tyranny that we are no whit lesse of Anarchy We abominate and detest together with the usurpations of the Pope the madnesse of the Anabaptists We prize as high as ever did our Fathers a free Councell convocated in the name of God wherein his Spirit and Word may preside and have the casting voyce and we are clearely of Opinion that
in a Rhetoricall and Oratorious way endeavour in the most part of your Book to publish your great Sufferings and extraordinary Piety and so to move us all to compassion and ravish us all into admiration as if ye meant rather to perswade then to prove them Hee answereth that he cannot answer since here is no sence And wherefore I pray Because the Interrogatory point is put after these words or from us Truly As the word agree or differ may by a certain Figure in Grammar called Zeugma be understood to be joyned with all those words so is the point of Interrogation But it should bee at the end as it is in the Observations And whereas it is in the beginning in stead of a Comma it is either the Printers over-sight or mine But to say that this great learned Clerk could not perceive this wherein the most ignorant findeth no difficulty who can believe him It is a pretty evasion to elude my Question Whereas he saith that the Interrogation should have been after Anabaptists as if the Reformed Protestants who refute Brownists and Anabaptists should say we Brownists and Anabaptists it is but his foolery which yet we could easily endure if he answered the Question Which since he cannot do I take it for granted that in this they have not proceeded well or at least not so well as they might If I should serve my selfe of such poore advantages or shifts rather as easily I might up and down in his and C.C. Books I should answer nothing at all as this Gentleman does But good men know that when ever I doubt of sence in them what ever I do I deale ingenuously with them and consult with sundry to find out their meaning and when neither others nor I my selfe can find any sense in their writings I passe it over in silence not reproving that which I understand not or that cannot be understood But if others understood it it is a great shame for this great Divine to have been so dull 7. Consid A.S. Whether the Apol. Narr be published in the name of the Five Ministers or of all those also or a part of those whom they pretend to hold their Tenets If in the name of you Five only whether ye Five can arrogate a power unto your selves to maintain these Tenets as the constant opinion of all your Churches having no generall confession of their Faith thereabouts If in the name of all the rest we desire you would shew your Commission from all your Churches c. These Questions have much vexed M.S. and put him to his wits end he would not answer but turnes them over unto me and will have mee to answer To which therefore I doe answer 1. Quaestio questionem non solvit 2. I answer directly 1. that this Answer I have made to the Apologie I have done it of my selfe and have done it by Authority since I have a Licence granted by him that by Authority Licenceth Books 2. I write in defence of all the best Reformed Protestant Churches and specially of that of Scotland France and the Netherlands to whose Judgement and Authoritative power in Synods I acknowledge my Booke to be subject so I arrogate nothing but with due Dependence and subjection but the Five Ministers are as Independent as I am Dependent as imperious as I am subject and odedient to my Superiours If they will answer as I we shall no more contest They have gained me to them if I have not gained them to the Church of Christ Besides this These Questions cannot reasonably bee propounded to A.S. 1. for A.S. is no Sectary neither Independent Brownist Anabaptist Arminian c. condemned or rejected by the Church of England or any other well Reformed Church 2. He is no minister much lesse an Independent Minister 3. He is not a Suitor for a Toleration of any not tolerated or intolerable Religion as the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers 4. He has not written against the common Faith of Reformed Dependent Churches as they have 5. If he had done so he should judge himselfe bound to give Reason both of his Faith and answer all those who would ask for an account thereof 6. However you turne and returne the Interrogation yet are you bound to answer 1. M.S. takes upon him to answer but answereth not as we shall God willing heare His first answer is It is no arrogating for any Christian upon just occasion to make his Confession of faith But to what Question I pray answereth this I grant you this but answer you to my Question In whose name c. His second Answ The Confession of Faith in Doctrine that is in all the best Reformed Churches is theirs A.S. As wide as before the Question is not of the Confession of Faith but about the Apologie in whose name it is published c. 2. M.S. For one touching pure Discipline it was not found in Scotland whiles the Tyrannie of Bishops prevailed A.S. 1. Here he seemeth to acknowledge that being freed from Episcopall Tyrannie we have pure Discipline which I acknowledge to be true 2. If by pure Discipline he understands Presbyteriall Government wee had it when Bishops prevailed howbeit oppressed by Episcopacie 3. There is no Confession of Faith if it be taken strictly but of some points of Discipline in the Apologie but we cannot know of them in whose name I am not angry at their Confession of Faith as M.S. saith but sory for their Schismes and want of Charity neither is it true that I have opened other mens mouthes but God Efficiently and your Calumnies against the Church Occasionally have opened good mens mouthes against you Turdue sibi malum cacat and yee must be content to drink as ye have brewed for your selves 3. M.S. 3. The godly learned Fathers Tertullian Justin Martyr c. produced no Authority from men to Apologize for the truth The Scripture they Apologized for bore them out A.S. 1. It seemeth by this Answer that they Apologize only for Scripture and can produce no Christian Church that they Apologize for 2. Tertull. Justin Martyr and all the Fathers apologized in the name of all the true Christian Churches of their time and acknowledged themselves and their Apologies to be subject to the Judgement and Authoritative spirituall power of Synods and they were as Dependent upon them as ye are Independent 3. Howbeit their Apologies had no Authoritie of men yet were they able sure to tell from time to time in whose Names they did Apologize M.S. 4. The Parliament allowes the five Ministers more viz. to shew their Reasons therefore the less to shew their Opinion A.S. 1. This answereth not yet the Question 2. But the Parliament alloweth them not a particular clandestin Assemby separated from the Generall Assembly 3 It alloweth them not to print Apologies against all the best Reformed Protestant Churches when they are sitting in qualitie of Members of the Assembly and against the Opinion of the most part of the
Members thereof 4. The Parliament alloweth them not to shew their Reasons a part without imparting them first to the Assembly and that without their Consent 5. Much lesse to be Suitors for a Toleration or allowance of their Sect or if it allow them any such thing I would pray them to shew us an Ordinance for it 6. What reason that your extraordinary Sect should have more allowance then the rest of the Synod We pray you in the name of God to live as Brethren more humane as other mortall men and if ye can or dare to answer my Questions as I doe yours M.S. 5. A thousand good Christians were glad to heare how the Five Ministers dissented from the rigid Separation and closed with the best Reformed Churches A.S. Note here that M.S. saith not that the five Ministers dissented from all the Separatists but only from the rigid Separation 2. They close not with the best reformed Churches unless by the best Reformed Churches be meant the Independent Churches For he calls all our Churches in Scotland France the Netherlands and Switzerland Episcopall Churches our Presbyteries Idols that must be grinded 3. Hee and his Partie dissent not in effect from Separatists in point of Separation in generall for they separate themselves from our Discipline and Sacramentall Communion as well as they doe 4. All this answereth not my Questions I will not reply to his injuries against my Person for they touch not the Cause Neither envie I him in ill doing A.S. 8. Consid Whether ye desire a Toleration for you Five alone in your Religion or for all the rest Item If a Toleration in publick in erecting of Churches apart or to live quietly without troubling of the State As for the last appearingly yee may have it unsought but for the rest the Parliament is wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church of God and the State My Adversary finds these Questions so newhat too hot for his fingering and therefore takes it for a point of Prudence not to touch them for feare to be burnt Now then that he may not seeme to have said nothing he falls to quarrelling with me about the signification of the word Toleration and the Parliaments wisedome because I say It is wise enough c. which he calleth a Contradiction to what I say afterward M.S. Toleration saith learned Cappell is of things unlawfull A.S. Toleration or Toleratio in Latine has many significations 1. Sometimes it is taken for Patience and so it is an Act or integrant part of Fortitude as Thomas and the Schoole-men speak 2. Sometimes it signifieth a permission of things that we cannot mend Toleranda sunt quae emendari non possunt And so the Magistrate tolerateth sometimes many things against his Lawes when he cannot make men obey 3. Sometimes a permission of things indifferent that are not forbidden by Law 4. Tolerabilia Tributa in the Roman lawes are moderate Tributes Tolerabilia saith Calvin sunt quae vetus consuetudo comprobat Cal. in Lexico Juridico And we have in Tacitus tolerare vitam which is not a thing unlawfull So that Cappell if he say so appearingly he speaketh not of Toleration in the whole latitude of its signification for things indifferent may be tolerated Afterwards M.S. he sayes that he will not yeeld the one nor beg the other i. e. if I understand him yeeld that their Religion is unlawfull or beg a Toleration what then will he have an allowance and approbation will nothing content him unless we confesse that Independency is lawfull and consequently that Dependency upon Councells and Synods is unlawfull This is close home and so to content you the whole State and all the Protestant Churches needs nothing els but that without any further reason they come hither and cry peccavimus omnes The other quarrell is my pretended Contradiction in these two Propositions 1. The Parliament is wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church 2. The Civill Magistrate arrogates not to himselfe any directive power in matters of Religion 1. But tell me my good Trifler what Contradiction can there be here Is not a Contradiction an Opposition between two Propositions the one Affirmative the other Negative both singular or the one Universall the other Particular having both the same termes Now is there here the same termes viz. the same Attribute in both these Propositions are they both singular or the one Universall and the other Particular where are thy eyes where is thy judgement where is thy Logick 2. Howbeit the Parliament be wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church will it follow that the Parliament and every Civill Magistrate has a directive power whereby Intrinsecally they may rule and teach the Church which is that whereof I spake there 3. By the same reason any good Scholler who liveth a private life and knoweth what is convenient for the Church should have the like power 3. Learne they here that it is not simply wisdome or knowledge but Gods calling that can give any such power to any mortall man 4. What if the Civill Magistrate were a Papist or a Professed Atheist should his bare knowledge give him any directive power over the Church I cannot believe thee to be so absurd or wicked as to say it The rest of his Discourse here is his ordinary injuries and words of contempt against my person which I sleight and passe by as unworthy of an answer A.S. 9. Consid And because the whole draught of this Book tends evermore to a Toleration and consequently to some Separation 1. I would willingly know of you what Things are to be tolerated or not tolerated in Religion 2. Not in private persons but in Consociacions 3. And particularly when the whole Kingdome is joyned in one Religion 4. What sort of new Consociations of divers Religions it may in good Conscience tolerate and receive into it 5. Item upon what ground Churches may in good Conscience make separation from other Churches that desire union and communion with them 6. Whether they that aime at a Toleration and Separation be not rather bound to tolerate some small pretended Defects not approved by those from whom they desire to separate themselves and especially when they that are so desirous of Separation are not pressed to be Actors in any thing against their consciences then to separate themselves from a Church that testifieth a great desire to reforme the defects pretended to be in it 7. Whether it were not better for them that aime at Toleration and Separation to stay in the Church and to joyn all their endeavours with their Brethren to reforme Abuses then by their Separation to let the Church of God perish in Abuses 8. Whether they doe not better that stay in the Church to reforme it when it may be reformed then who quit it for feare to be deformed in it The Adversary to Elude these 8. Questions telleth us that they answer themselves and
the Church By their naturall estate or condition I understand either their estate of integrity as that of the good Angels who continued in their Originall purity and of the wicked who afterwards apostatized and of Adam Eve before their fall or of corruption such as is that of all mankind after our first sin By the word called here must be understood the act of vacation by Gods word either internall speaking unto Angels or mens Consciences by the light of nature or supernaturall Inspirations 1 Cor. 1.9 1 Pet. 5.10 1 Thes 2.12 and 4.7 or externall such as is the vocall and written word of God or any other externall signe presented to our outward Senses by him as 1 Jo. 1.3 2 Thes 2.4 Heb. 1.1 And therefore the Elect before they be borne and called are not properly or actually but meerly potentially and vertually members of the Church 1. For how can he be a member of the Church who is not yet in Rerum natura 2. By the same reason the Church should have been actually before the Creation of the world and before she was created from all eternity for God elected his Church from all eternity 3. Men of age should be actually members of Christs Church without Faith for they have not actually Faith by Election but by their efficacious Vocation 4. And howsoever the Decree of Predestination or Election be requisite and be the first cause of the Church and of all the members thereof and it being put all the second Causes must needs be yet makes it not them to be when it is its self but in their own time and in due season when it is put in execution by some externall act of Gods Almighties power which can not be eternal as his Decree but temporal 5. Because Gods Church is an House a Family and a City which can not be built of stones that are not or composed of Domesticks and Citizens that are not in this world 6. A man cannot be the Brother of Christ and member of his church before he be regenerate or born againe how much lesse before he be generated or born unlesse ye will say that he may have his second birth or generation before he have the first Out of this naturall estate c. here is expressed Terminus a quo et ad quem from whence and whereunto the Church or the members thereof are called Terminus a quo or from whence is from the estate of Nature pure and incorrupt not incorruptible as was that of the Angels and of man before his Fall or of corrupt nature such as hath been that of mankinde since their Fal. Terminus ad quem or whereunto they are called or which can intend is Grace in this life and supernaturall Glory in that to come By supernaturall Glory must be understood supernaturall Beatitude or felicity which is the last aym their summum bonum or greatest good and perfection whereunto they tend or which they can intend And this in respect of entire and pure or immaculate Nature is absolutely called Beatitude or Felicity but in regard of corrupt Nature Salvation for it is not a man without sin as Christ or Angels that never sinned but Adam his posterity that are said to be saved from their sins and misery whereunto by sin they are subject Means are called convenient when they are fit to effect that which by them is intended such in respect of Angels was the Law of Nature printed in their Understanding answerable to their spirituall Nature some Supernatural Precepts also for they were bound to beleeve the Trinitie answerable in Adam before his Fall was the Law and such respect to the spirituall and corporall nature whereof he was compounded as the Morall Law and some supernaturall Precepts to beleeve the Trinity c. proportionate to the end and aym viz. supernaturall glory whereunto he should tend and which he should intend And in regard of all mankind since our Fall is the Covenant of Grace and the means to fulfill it as Faith Hope and Charity The Church in this vast and large signification contains 1. in it self the company of Angels 1. because the Scripture sayes so Heb. 12.22 23. 1 Pet. 1.12 2. because they are our Fellow-servants and our Brethren Apoc. 19.10 and 22.9 they belong to one society with us 3. because the Angels are our Con-disciples in studying the Gospel with us 1 Pet. 1.12 4. Because they are Subjects with us of one Celestiall Republike and Citizens of one Celestiall City 5. Because we aspire to the same Beatitude and Felicity with them viz. to the vision of Gods face and ardent Charity 6. Because in respect of our spirituall part and the Faculties thereof our Intellect and Will we are capable of the same union with God 7. Because Christ is head of the Angels as well as of Men Col. 2.19 Eph. 4.15.8 Because he is their Creator Conservator Mediator God gathered in one all things in Christ both which are in Heaven and which are in Earth and every thing in them Eph. 1.10.9 Because the Angels adore Christ Hebr. 1.6.10 Because all things yea the Angels are subject to Christ Hebr. 1.7 2. It contains men in Heaven and in Earth for the Church in Earth and in Heaven differ onely as a man travelling and one arrived to his Port or home All these that are or shall be saved those that are already born and to be born regenerate or to be regenerate howsoever they that are not yet born or regenerate be not actually members of the Church till they be born and regenerated This Church in regard of its materiall parts integrity and quantity may be distinguished 1. into the Catholike or universall and particular Church The Catholike Church is that which before we defined composed of all the Elect Angels and Men. 2. Again it is to be observed in passing of this Word Catholike Church that it is not a term of Scripture nor was any man called a Catholike in the Apostles time if we beleeve Pacianus epist 1. Ad Sempronianum neither in their time was the Christian Faith spread Catholikely or Universally through all the World and hence many Protestants infer that the Creed I mean that of the Apostles was not framed by them Neverthelesse we have some terms in Scripture equivalent unto it as that of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb 12.23 that signifies a generall Assembly Item the City of the living God the Heavenly Jerusalem ver 22. the Church of the first-born which are written in Heaven c. The Church then is called Vniversall 1. in respect of her Intrinsecall and Essentiall form viz. internall vertues viz. Faith Hope Charity and the Spirit of Christ which be all and the same in all the members thereof for howsoever the Church in respect of some Gifts otherwayes called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and by the Schoolmen gratia gratis data is distributed by Christ unto some of her members not so much for
comprehends a certaine number of persons of one or divers places Here it is to be observed 1. That the Church may be denominated universall or particular either absolutely or respectively in relation to another bigger or lesse so Absolutely the universall Church comprehends in its selfe all the Churches of all times of all places of all forts of Persons Angels and men of all Estates or conditions and Covenants As that in the Covenant of integrity naturall or supernaturall as of Angels and men before their Fall and that in the state of sin under the Covenant of Grace and in the state of Glory And according to this consideration the Church of the Angels is one particular Church That of Mankind another The Triumphant and Militant two others and in a word all the parts thereof may be called particular Churches Respectively the Church of Mankind is an universall Church in respect of its parts as of that before and after the Fall the Triumphant and Militant so the Church after the Fall is universall in respect of that of the Old and New Testament which be its parts and the Christian in respect of its parts in Heaven and on Earth of the Primitive and that of subsequent times that which is in all the world in respect of its parts in divers Kingdomes Provinces c. But that which is most to the purpose in this our Discourse is the Catholick Christian Church here upon earth 6. Againe the Militant Church whether she be considered according to her universality and totality or particularity in her severall parts and Assemblies in respect of her internall and externall forme is either visible or invisible The invisible Church is that which cannot be seene but only is beleeved by Faith The visible is that which we see or behold where it is to be observed 1. That the word visible is not to be taken here strictly for the object of the sight alone or the word see or behold for the act thereof but in a more full signification for that which any waies is perceptible by the eye or any externall or internall Sense or by naturall Reason such as are the confession and profession of Christian vertues the exercise of their externall Acts whereof some be apprehended by the sight and Eye as the acts of Charity some by the hearing and Eare as the confession of Faith some by feeling as the assistance and attendance upon the Sicke some by the internall Senses some by Act of Reason only and the reason of this is because the word visible must signifie all that which is denyed by invisible now invisible signifies a negation of all that can be apprehended by any Sense or Act of Reason Ergo the word visible must signifie that which can be apprehended by any Sense or Act of Reason so that it belong to the Externall Form of the Church which represents the internall Forme thereof 2. Besides that it is here to be observed that the visible Church of it self is evermore visible and conspicuous but by Accident becomes sometimes invisible latent obscure and unseene and that 1. either because of the persecution Shee suffers by her enemies when Shee hides her selfe in the Wildernesse or 2. by reason of her slitting from one place to another as when Shee went from Hierusalem to Pella or 3. because of the weaknesse of the sight of the Seer as in Eli 1 King 9. verse 4. for want of sight as to those to whom as the Gospel so the Church professing the Gospell is hid and invisible 2 Cor. 2 3 4. 3. Finally It is not to be omitted that this is not a Division of the Churchinto two Species or two integrant parts or any waies into parts really but Accidentally distinguished For a Church altogether one in the same time and place and according to the same parts may be howsoever according to divers considerations and Formes which be the grounds of divers considerations it may be Visible and Invisible as the Church of Geneva which is visible in respect of her externall forme viz. Confession of the true Christian Faith the profession thereof and other christian vertues Item in respect of her Discipline c. And the same Church in respect of her internall Forme viz. Faith Hope Charity the Spirit of Christ c which be spirituall qualities altogether invisible in the sense before declared is altogether invisible 7. The Militant Church both in her totality and partiality may be divided into two integrant parts viz. into the Over-seers that preach teach rule c. and the Flock which is over-seene And they be the two principall parts concurring to its integrity without the which it cannot be a totall or whole visible Church and therefore a Church without Oversseers is not a whole visible Church I say a whole or totall Church for without Pastors it may be a totum essentiale i.e. essentially a Church for Pastors are not absolutely necessary for the essence but for the integrity of a Church Item I say without Over-seers 1. All Over-seers for it may be that a Church may subsist without Pastors alone or Doctoss alone or Rulers or Elders alone or Deacons alone but not without all 8. The Militant visible Church whether it be conceived in its universality and totality or in its particularity in severall Congregations is either Reall or Representative The Reall Militant Church is any visible Church here upon Earth composed of all its reall Professors of the Gospel The Representative Church is an Assembly of certaine Persons or Church-Officers in an Ecclesiasticall Iudicatory chosen out of the whole Body of the Reall Church to represent it as it is such be the Sessions or Consistories the Synods Provinciall and Nationall As for the Reall visible Church some thinke that it is very probable that it is never altogether without Iustifying Faith but it is probable that where there be very small Congregations of seven or eight persons they may be all without Faith and especially where the Church is corrupt or where the Members are all vicious and dissolute Their conjecture will hold more probable in great Congregations in Provinciall and Nationall Churches But in a Representative Church composed of very few Church-Officers it is very probable that sometimes they may all be without Faith howsoever they represent a Church of Reall Beleevers for to represent Reall Beleevers it is not absolutely necessary that they that are to represent them be Beleevers or have the same essentiall and internall Forme with those whom they represent but that they have the externall confession and profession of their Faith whereby they represent them nor represent they their Faith but their profession of faith So the Image of Caesar represents really Caesar without any humane nature such as is in Caesar and so may men without Faith represent them that have Faith By the word Church we must understand the Militant Christian particular and reall Church consisting of one Congregation These
being presupposed I put this Conclusion All Persons in a Church or the whole Collective Body thereof have not Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction 1. They have not the power to exercise it 1. Because we read no such thing in Scripture viz. that ever God committed the Government of the Church to every idle Fellow that is a member thereof 2. Because it is contrary to the generall Ordinance of God 1 Tim. 3. that all Church-Officers be examined and tryed before their Admission And to the practise of the Old Testament in the religion of the Levites that served five yeares in their Apprenticeship 3. Because every particular member of the Church hath not the Ability to Iudge or Rule because of his ignorance and want of learning for every one in the Church cannot be learned for some there be that needs are spirituall some that be carnall some Babes in Christ some men some have need of milke some of meat 1 Cor. 3.1 2 3. 4. Because of their imprudence for some of the vulgar are somewhat precipitate and rash in the examination of matters others very slow in their judgement some in their speech and some in all which is not convenient in so grave matters in Iudging the Iudgements of the Lord. 5. Because some are vicious and culpable of the faults or crimes that are to be Iudged and condemned in others and therefore are not fit Iudges to Iudge them 6. Many in the Congregation may be friends Kinsmen or allyed with the party that is to be Iudged and so partiall wherefore some of the Congregation at the least in that case are to be excluded and by Consequence the simple Title of Christianity and profession thereof or to be a member of the Church gives not all christians this right but some other thing 7. If every one of the Church may Iudge or exercise Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction then women also whom Saint Paul commands to hold their peace in the Church 1 Cor. 14.34 and to be subject in obedience without Iurisdiction 8. All distracted men and babes should have power to Iudge and so those that are without Iudgment shold Iudge since they are members of the Church It may be answered that they admit not babes but those only that are in age and apparently regenerated Inst But then every member of the Church hath power to Iudge but men distracted are in age Ergo they have power to Iudge It may be answered that they understand that those only that are in age and have the use of reason should be admitted Inst 1. But when hath a man the use of Reason how shal they define that It is commonly defined by Philosophers and others the age of seven yeares which will make no very able Ecelesiasticall Senator here the Scripture is desicient they will admit nothing in Discipline but that which is commanded by Christ 2. What if a man in his old age begin to dote they may answer that then he is excluded because reason failes him Inst Then he must be declared not sitting which may breed division Jnst Item a man may be in age and yet little skilled in Divinity for to Iudge in matter of Heresie and be more vitious then when he was a childe And if a man be Iudged by babes children fooles and doting old men it is to be feared especially if the Iudged be rich that the Iudgement be the cause rather of division then concord so this Discipline being established all Schismes may break forth controversies and contentions They may answer that they establish these that are really or apparently in judgement of charity Saints as it may be collected from the Rom. c. 1.2 1 Cor. 1. Eph. 1. Phil. in the beginning of the chapters Reply But every particular man in every particular Congregation of the Visible Church whereof we only dispute is not nor can in speaking morally as falleth out ordinarily be a Saint 1. Because the Church is compared to a Ground whereof one part is by the way side the other stony another thorny another good To a Ground wherin growes Wheat and Tares To a Draw-Net receiving good and bad fishes Mat. 13. to a Society of wise and foolish Virgins Mat. 25. And to a House wherein there are Vessels to honour and dishonour There must be Offences or slanders saies Christ Math. 18.7 2. Howbeit they were all Saints yet should it not follow thereupon that they are all learned prudent judicious and endowed with other gifts to judge either in matters of Doctrine in Creating of Ministers and in Excommunicating of Hereticks or of Discipline which sometime requires some knowledge of the Civill law as in Cases of Matrimonie c. As for the Passages of St. Paul 1. I deny that he calls all the Members of the Church Saints Formally but the whole Body of the Church is so called or denominated because of the holinesse which is really or apparently inherent in some Members or parts thereof which denominates the whole Body as when a man is said to see because of the sight which is not inherent in all the parts of his Body but only in his Eye or wise for his wisdome which is inherent in his Soule alone 2. If it were otherwise the Apostle should have written untruths in these Texts for Rom. 16.17 18. he sayes Now I beseech you Brethren marke them which cause divisions and offences c. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly and 1 Cor. 5. It is known that the Incestuous man was not excommunicated Some of them were also Schismaticks saying that they were of Christ of Paul of Apolloes And what the Galathians were the whole Epistle testifies so that according to our Brethrens grounds there was no visible Church here and nothing could have been judged 3. It is not sanctification or holinesse of life but Politicall or Ecclesiasticall prudence that furnisheth their Abilities for 1. Sanctification is Gratia gratum faciens one sort of Grace or gift of the Spirit that renders us gracious or makes us acceptable to God But the facultie of Ruling and exercising of Jurisdiction in the Church is Gratia gratis data given gratiously only but makes us not gracious or acceptable to God as the Gift of Prophecie of Tongues Intepretation c. 2. The first is given us principally for our own benefit the other principally for other mens benefit and therfore 3. the first is for to save a man himself the second to save others when peradventure he may be damned himselfe as we see in Judas who had the grace of Prophecie whereby he saved others but damned himselfe and did preach salvation to others beleeving but damnation to himselfe unbeleeving 4. The first makes one a good Christian the other a good Citizen in the exteriour Societie of the Church alone yea 5. I may boldly say that a man may be a good Preacher or Prophet or Ruler in the Church and an ill Christian if hee preach
transgression of the Politicall Law of Moses c. yea it is probable that they were not abrogated at all by Christ among the people of the Iewes since they were Juris Naturalis quoad substantiam Politici quoadmodum for he came not to abrogate but to fulfill the Law And so hath all the Christian world hitherto understood this Passage whose Iudgements we cannot easily reject without some solid ground and so much the rather for that since Iesus Christ his time till some forty or fifty yeares agoe or thereabouts never any man of esteeme did ever dreame of such a Popular and confused Government if yee except Morellies And so is the word Ecclesia taken Deut 31.28 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Septuagint translates it gather unto me all the Elders of your Tribes and Officers and Deut. 23. v. 1 2 3. it is commanded that he that is hurt by Bursting or hath his privie members cut off that is a Bastard an Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the Congregation or Ecclesia even to the Tenth Generation Here Ecclesia or Congregation cannot signifie the Reall but the Representative Congregation For it had been unjust to exclude any man from the reall Church consequently from Gods Covenant that desired to be therein If it had been so they could not have received any Proselytes which is against Gods Law Exod. 23.48 where it is commanded to admit unto the Passeover all Strangers that would be circumcised so that which was said to the Elders of Israel that were the Representative Congregation Exod. 2.16 is said to have been said to the Sons of Israel that were the Reall Congregation Exod. 14. and the Text confirmes it for Moses had not charge to say that the Lord would bring up out of Affliction the Elders only but also the People 25. This Doctrine at once condemnes all the Martyrs and Councells and all their practise in Ecclesiasticall Government 26. Our Brethren holde that the absent part of the Church may give over or remit their power of Iudging to them that are present and that the lesser part are bound to acquiesce with the major part in voycing wherefore then may not all the People give over or remit their power of Iudging to a certaine number of the wisest such as the Representative Church is or acquiesce unto their Iudgements 27. To whom the Apostles in the first Constitution of the Church at their last Farewells committed the power of Iurisdiction and Ordination to those it is to be committed at this present But to Church-Officers or to the Representative Body of the Church alone did the Apostles in the first Constitution of the Church at their last Farewell committed the power of Iurisdiction Ordination c. Acts 20. 1 Pet. 5. Ergo. But our Brethren reply that we cannot shew any Place in all the holy Scriptures or prophane Authors where the word Church is taken in this signification viz. for the Representative Church or Congregation A. Whereunto we answer 1. That the stile of Scripture must not be sought in prophane Authors but in Scripture it selfe 2. Some give some Examples in prophane Authors 3. In Scripture our Adversaries will never finde any place wherein the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is taken for all the Reall Parochiall Church to the exclusion of children women all those that have not the use of Reason and that are notoriously vicious as it is taken by themselves 4. We on the other side to confirme the signification wherein it is taken by us viz. for the Representative Congregation present them with these places 1 Exod. 3. v. 14. Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel i. e. unto the representative Body of the children of Israel viz. the Elders of Israel gathered together as it is expounded v. 16.2 Exod. 12. In the institution of the Passeover v. 3. Speake yee unto all the Congregation of Israel i. e. the Elders which were the Representative Body of Israel as it is expounded v. 21. and Reason confirmes it for they could not in so short a time speake to all the Reall Congregation composed of so many thousands neither could they easily be gathered together into one place nor could it be done without apparent danger Item Numb 35.24 in speaking of Murther through ignorance the Revenger of the blood and the Cities of Refuge It is said that the Congregation shall Iudge between the slaine and the Revenger of Blood according to those Iudgements without doubt the Congregation here cannot signifie all the Reall but the Representative Congregation i. e. the Elders 1. Because so it is expounded Deut. 19.2 and Iosua 20.4 5 6. 2. because it was not for every one of the people or the Reall Congregation but belonged to the Elders that were the Representative Body thereof to Iudge of the Blood And Deut. 31.28 Gather unto me all the Elders of your Tribes and your Officers the 70. turne it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Now if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie to congregate By the Rules of Conjugata it followes that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies a Congregation that was congregated or gathered together from amongst the rest But the Ecclesia or Congregation that was here gathered together was not all the Reall but the Representative Congregation consisting of Elders c. as appeares by the Text Ergo. So it is said that Solomon assembled the Elders of Israel and all the Heads of the Tribes c. 1 Reg. 8.1 And that David assembled all the Princes c. 1 Chro. 28.1 so the word Congregation is taken for the Representative Body thereof 1 Chro. 13.1 2 3 4 for David could not speake to all the Congregation but to the Captaines and Chieftaines thereof as it appeares v. 1. and 4. 5. neither could they all goe with him Deutrinomy 23.1 2 3. It is commanded that neither he who is bursten or that hath his privie members cut off or that is a Bastard an Ammonite or a Moabite shall enter into the Congregation or in Ecclesia even to the tenth Generation here the word Ecclesia or Congregation must not signifie the Reall but the Representative Congregation for it should have been unjust and cruell to have excluded from the Church and consequently from the Covenant of God any of those that desired to be admitted thereunto 2. For then they could not have received any of those Nations for Proselytes to the tenth generation 3. Because this is repugnant to another Law of God Exod. 23.48 where it is commanded to admit unto the Passeover all Strangers circumcised 28. If every member of the Church should have power to Governe or a power of Iurisdiction in every Ecclesiasticall Cause Ergo of teaching also and of Deaconship for there is a parity of reason in both for there be some points of Controversie as hard to be Iudged as it would be to master a Sermon and it is much difficulter to rule then to exercise the charge of
Zerubbabel to Sanballat and Tobiah OR The First Part of the DVPLY TO M.S. alias Two Brethren BY ADAM STEVART Whereunto is added The Iudgement of the Reformed Churches of France Switzerland Geneva c. Concerning INDEPENDANTS who condemne them with an unanimous consent Published by DAVID STEUART EZRA 4.1 2 3. The Adversaries of Judah came to Zerubbabel and to the chiefe of the fathers and said unto them Let us build with you for we seek your God as ye do and we do sacrifice unto him since the dayes of Esarhaddon king of Assur which brought us up hither But Zerubbabel and Jeshua and the rest of the chief of the fathers of Israel said unto them You have nothing to do with us to build an house unto our God but we our selves together will build unto the Lord God of Israel March 17. 1644. Imprimatur JA CRANFORD London Printed for Iohn Field and are to be sold at his house upon Addle-hill neer Baynards-Castle 1645. To their EXCELLENCIES The Lord William Boreel Lord of Duynbeck chiefe Syndicke and Counceller of Amsterdam The Lord John de Reede Lord of Reinswond Deputy in Ordinary in the Assembly of the States Generall of the united Provinces for the Province of Utrecht The Lord Albert Joachimi Lord of Oostende in Oedekenskercke Secretary for the Republick of Ter-Goes Lords Ambassadours of the High and Mighty Lords the States Generall of the united Provinces of the Netherlands THe World happily will conceive that Personages so Noble and Eminent for Place and Employment are much too High to be solicited to undertake for or be God-Fathers to a Childe of so mean a Birth and quality as is this that now presents it self unto Your Excellencies for that purpose Every one will be ready to say that I in making choice of Your Honourable Names for Protection of this Treatise have erected too stately and augustuous a Portall for so low and mean a Building as mine is It may not be denied but that such a construction may very justly be made of my enterprise if either the Authors inferior quality and condition or the frame and structure of his work should be strictly eyed and regarded But on the other side if the matter and end of it be well taken into consideration scarce any man can think other then that it is most worthy Your Patronage as that that hath no other aime save only the glory of God the Edification of the Church the Vindication of the Truth against the illusions of Sectaries and Novelists and the reduction to the bosome of the Church of such as are strayed from it Now what can there be more sutable and fitting for Children and Servants of the great God such as as You are then that which makes for the advancement of his Glory What can there be more proper for such as are Members yea Nursing-Fathers of the Church then that which tends to the gathering and Uniting together of the Members of her Body What can there be more worthy such Eminent Personages professing the true Religion then that which is for the defence of the truth of such opinions as are Orthodox What can there be more corresponding with the duty of Chistian Magistrates then to that which is intended for the reduction of such as are strayed to the Sheepfold of the great Shepherd of our Souls and that They should assist the Work by their Politicall Authority whilst the Church contributes which is all she can do her best Reasons for their conviction I have further Grounds and Motives for the Dedication of this Treatise to Your Excellencies to wit For that You represent here the Persons of the High and Mighty States of the United Provinces some of whose Territories and Estates are infected with this Venome Howbeit God be thanked it gaines not ground so fast there as here nor the Gangreen proves hitherto so dangerous Concerns it not us therefore being infested with the same Malady and Disease the one as the other that we should testifie our mutuall sense and apprehension thereof and that we should make it appear to all the World that however we are divided in Body we are yet notwithstanding strongly united in Heart as also in an Harmony of Opinions You labour likewise how You may Establish here a Peace both in Church and State and this Treatise is a good Means conducing to the former of these You endevour to procure a Generall Councell and this Treatise maintaines the equity and proves the necessity of it But yet there is one Reason more which more particularly obliges me to present this Treatise to Your Excellencies and it is such as I may not at any hand passe over without incurring the Crime of highest Ingratitude Which is Most Excellent Lords That great Honour Your Famous University of Leyden the very Athens of our Age hath put upon me in vouchsafing me so honorable a Call to be one of its Members Truly to this Head give me leave to say I cannot sufficiently admire Your great love to good Letters and Your unparallel'd care for the advancing of them so as it seems that in Your Provinces and in them alone they flourish and shew themselves in their perfect Lustre and Beauty For this purpose You from time to time make choice and Election of the most Famous men of all Europe Notwithstanding that You have very able men of your own as though You meant to gather into one Place all the most radiant Stars in the Firmament so as You despoil all other Kingdoms of the fairest flowers of their Crowns and with a kinde of sweet violence do as it were draw their Eyes out of their Heads and so quite darken and eclipse their Lustre and shine I say not this that I would be thought to rank my self in the number of those Great and Eminent Personages I know well that there are some Stars that shine by their own light That there are others again that shew not themselves but by a borrowed light But I will not enlarge my discourse upon Your Praises nor undertake to describe at large Your Heroick Vertues for this is not the place for it and it hath already been done by far better Pens then mine is I should by such an untertaking fear to sully the brightnesse of their Lustre and to draw a cloud over their Orient and vivid Colours And if I should go about it I should at the same time resolve to imitate that Excellent Painter who when he had done all that his Art enabled him to do for the drawing of an exquisite Pourtaicture and had set out its beauty with the most lively colours he could devise drew a curtain over it mistrusting the goodnesse of his Workmanship and intimating thereby that there was much more to be conceived of the Peece then he was able to expresse Notwithstanding I cannot tell how to contain my self but I must take notice of Your great Actions and Your many Noble Atchievements by Arms How
a farre Country to dwell at Hierusalem so these are come too from farre from America c. 4. They made as though they would build the Temple together with the Jewes but in effect they had not the least intention so to doe as not acknowledging them at all So These here make faire semblamces as though they meant to build with us They are Members of the Synod but yet are loath to acknowledge them 5. The Jewes were ready to have received them had they found they had proceeded with sincerity And so should we be ready to receive these could we finde they proceeded sincerely 6. They discouraged the Worke-men and retarded the Worke so do these as is but too apparent 7. They accused the Jews that they purposed to rebell against the King So these men in like manner charge us that we give not power enough to the Magistrate 8. Maugre all the impediments that they cast in the way of Gods people to hinder the Building of the Temple it came at last though not till a long time after that to be finished and compleated So we well hope that in despite of These the spirituall Temple shall at last be built up to Gods glory Thine in the Lord Jesus A. S. Clarissimo virtute doctrina praestantissimo V. D. Davidi Buchanano amico plurimum honorando SAl pl. Vir clarissime praestantissime D. amice honorande venerandus Ecclesiae nostrae pastor D. Breitingerus literis tuis acceptis propter senii incommoda quibus laborat mihi in mandatis dedit ut suo nomine respondeam illam Consistoriorum Independentiam de qua scribis Ecclesiis nostris non probari Venerand Synodum Ecclesiarum nostrarum ordinem politiam non ignorare Si tamen illarum sententia requireretur suo officio non defuturas Dolendum maximopere viros Ecclesiasticos faederis juramenti religione posthabitâ ab Ecclesiarum Scoticanarum ritibus recedere quibus hac in parte transmarinae omnes congruunt Apud nos Conventus minores maioribus non quidem serviliter subjici sedita tamen subordinari ut Ecclesia veluti acies ordinata suos in ordine officio contineat simulque hostibus formidabilis existat Vt libertatis Ecclesiae nostrae sunt studiosissimae it a licentiam omnem Synodica censura reprimere prohibere Ita Consistorium vel Collequium Antiochenum à judicio censura Synodi Hierosolimetanae dependisse spiritus prophetarum prophetis subjici debere Haec vir optimus reverendus senex cum plurima amoris ac benevolentia significatione tibi priuatim significari voluit Deus Ecclesiae laboranti benignus adsit Synodum spiritu pacis dirigat ut Ecclesiae formam optimam Iuramenti Religione sancitam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 stabiliat Vale vir praestantissime Data Tiguri 18 Iul. 1644. Tuus omni obsequio cultu Joh. Rodolphus Stuckius To my much honoured vertuous and learned friend Master Buchanan SIR THe reverend Pastour of our Church Mr. Breittinger after the receit of your letters being himselfe much indisposed by reason of his great Age has charged me to return you Answer in his name that that Independencie of Consistories whereof you write is not approved by our Churches and that the Synode was not ignorant of the order and Discipline of our Churches yet neverthelesse that these Churches would not be wanting to the discharge of their dutie if it were required of them to declare their Opinion hereabouts It is verie much to be lamented that Church-men neglecting the religious reverence due unto a solemne Oath and Covenant should depart from the Rites of the Church of Scotland with which in such things the Transmarine Churches doe agree That amongst us the Inferiour Conventions are not in any servile manner subject but only subordinate unto the Superiour that so the Church of God as a well disciplined Armie might the better keep her owne people in order and dutie and so be more formidable to her Adversaries That howsoever our Churches are verie carefull to preserve their Christian libertie they be no lesse to represse by their Synodicall Censures all licentiousnesse and Libertinisme whatsoever That just so the Consistorie or Colloque held at Antioch depended upon the judgement and Censure of the Synod held at Ierusalem That the Spirits of the Prophets ought to be subject to the Prophets Sir These are the things that the good Reverend old man enjoyned mee together with his best love and affection to you to acquaint you with apart The mercifull God be present with and assist his afflicted and distressed Church and so direct your Synod by the spirit of peace that they may unanimously agree upon it to establish the best modell and frame of a Church such an one as by Covenant they stand obliged to seeke after Farewell dated at Zurich the 18 of Iuly 1644. Sir yours Rodolphus Stuckius A Monsieur Monsieur Buchanan Gentilhomme Escossois à Londres Monsieur IAy faict voir à nostre Compagnie l'Escrit qu'il vous a pleu luy adreser par mon Entremise ou nous ayant deduict les causes de vos troubler ies divers obstacles qui retardent la Tranquillité Publique vous nous demandez nos advis particulierement sur l'opinion de quelques uns des Membres du Synode qui tiennent que toutes les Eglises peuvent estre suffisament gouvernées par leurs Consistoires chascune à part sans despendre des Assembleés plus grandes plus authoriseés comme sont les Colloques les Synodes Provinciaux Nationaux Sur quoy say eu charge de Vous escrize que comme nous avons tous jours deploré vos mal-heurs avo◠des entrailles de Compassion senti la froissure de Ioseph consideré le triste spectacle de vos Eglises comme une calamité qui nous touche de prés encores que nous la regardions de fort loing Aussi ne pourons nous que redoubler nos gemissements lors que nous apprenons que Satan some son yvroye durant les tenebres de vostre affliction qu'il s'esleve divers Esprits qui par un zele sans Cognoissance desehirent la robbe qui na point de cousture Mais ce qui nous a le plus touche c'est de voir qu'en une Assemblee quine doibt avoir aultre but que celuy d'une Saincte Paix il se glisse des differents des malentendus qui ne debroyent jamais naistro parmi les serviteurs de Dieu ou que la Prudence Christienne y deburoit au moins estouffer des leur naissance suivant l'authorité de l'Escriture Saincte l'usage de Eglise Primitive l'Histoir de tous les fiecles l'experience de nos jours Car pour ne nous arrester point à ce nom d'Independants qu'ils prennent ou qu'on leur donne bien qu'il merite d'estre à jamais banni du milieu des Orthodoxes d'estre laisse aux
only to pull in pieces the garment but even the Body of our Lord and his Spirituall Tabernacle and to take away from the Church the title of the Communion of Saints to divide that which God hath joyned together by his Holy Spirit the which being the spirit of peace inspires where ever it bloweth peace concord and brotherly and charitable communication and leades us to lend each other of us the hand to maintaine the whole together in a spirituall sympathy and a reciprocall ayding and assisting one of another 11. Besides that under the pretence of casting out Tyranny it is to introduce and bring in an Anarchie and confusion into the House of God and to open a wide gate to all sorts of disasters which are apparently unavoy dable if every particular Church shake off all manner of Yoake and refuse to give an account of its behaviour unto the assembly of his Brethren attributing unto itselfe an absolute power to doe whatsoever it selfe please without answering unto any therefore save to God only For if we open a gare to such a licentiousnesse the Socinians the Anabaptists and generally all sort of Hereticks Fanaticks and Enthusiastsshall quickly find the mean of seducing the people to possesse themselves of the Pulpits and so to make havock of the Churches of God 12. Moreover this pretended Independence ingageth them that maintaines it in a manifest contradiction for since they confesse that the Church of England is a Body they must necessarily avow that its parts ought to be united and tyed together which should be absolutely impossible should every Church be obliged to make a combination a part and to stand Independent upon another Church 13. From the very birth of the Christian Church unto this present there hath never been such a Government established as these men at this time propound on the contrary the mutual and reciprocall dependence of Churches and the uniting of them all together to a certaine Ecclesiasticall Order and Politie having been debated by a common deliberation hath been accepted voluntarily by all and hath ever been judged absolutely necessary 14. But to rest my selfe upon the Scripture alone we have it formally enjoyned without any exception to submit our selves one to another in the feare of God Eph. the 4. and to goe one before another Rom. 12. God would have every thing in his House decently and in order and as the spirit of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets so those that Prophesie ought to subject themselves one to the other remembring that God is not the God of confusion but of peace 1 Cor. 14. 15. The Apostle Saint Paul had beene called by our Lord Iesus Christ unto the Apostleship immediatly so as that he had neither received nor learnt any thing of any man and yeelded not in any thing to to those that would seeme something and acknowledged not that those that were in place had added any thing unto him notwithstanding he tooke not himselfe for an Independent but after that he had three yeares together Preached the Gospell and wrought divers miracles he disdaines not to goe to Ierusalem to visit Peter and to receive the right hand of fellowship And like wise he went up ten yeares after by Revelation to Ierusalem to conserte with the Apostles touching the Gospell to the end saith he least by any meanes I had not or should have run in vaine Gal. 2 In conclusion after that he had undergone a world of troubles and was become famous for many signes and miracles and had made the Gospel of Christ to flourish from Ierusalem unto Illyricum Rom. 1.17 he maketh no difficulty or scruple to submit himselfe unto the Counsell that the Church of Ierusalem gave him although he had never required any Counsell at their hands Acts 21. 16. Saint Peter that was the first in order in the Colledge of the Apostles beleeves not himselfe to be an Independent when he perceiveth that they were offended with his manage of the affaires he presents himselfe boldly to his Brethren as they were assembled in Ierusalem and gives them an account of what had passed by the meanes of his Ministery in the Calling of the Gentiles Act 11. And when he went not the right way to the truth of the Gospell he endured himself to be reprehended publickly by the Apostle Saint Paul Gal. 2. 17. The Church of Antioch was the first that was honoured with the Title of Christian and it had famous men immediatly inspired by the Holy Ghost Amongst others Saint Paul and Barnabas And yet notwithstanding when there hapned amongst them a Controversie of importance it presumed not to decide it of it selfe alone it presumed not to shew it selfe Independent but contrariwise it sent Paul and Barnabas with some others to Hierusalem where a Councell was called consisting of the Apostles and Elders And the Question that was first of all moved and debated at Antioch was examined and decided at Hierusalem to the glory of God and the edification of the Church Acts 15. 18. For very great important and just reasons it is decreed to abolish the Episcopacy but it were lesse mischiefe and inconvenience by farre to suffer it after that the Excesses of it were corrected and the Tyranny abolished then to bring in such an horrible confusion as is vailed under this name of Independency 19. God be thanked there is no need to come to that For if the Church of England will observe the order already happily established in ours and the Churches of Scotland if I mistake not it shall receive much profit and edification thereof and shall see the Gospell of Iesus Christ and of true Piety reigne and flourish more then ever in the midst of her people 20. In every particular Church there ought to be a Body made up of Pastors or of Pastors Ancients and Deacons that may meet in Consistory upon set and appointed daies to advise by common consent of the Affaires and the Government of the Church 21. If there be but one Pastor in these Consistories He presides there evermore But if there chance to be more they preside by turnes 22. In great Cities and Townes as in London where there are many Parishes every Parish may have its particular Consistory made up of Pastors Ancients and Deacons And yet notwithstanding to entertaine an holy Christain like and Brotherly union and concord such as ought to be among the Faithfull that are of the same Towne we are of Opinion that it would doe well that every weeke or Moneth at least a Generall Consistory should be held where the other Consistories should meete either in their Bodies or by their Deputies if their number be too great The Pastors of the several Parishes may preside by turnes or as it shall be agreed upon by a common choise And the businesses that shall be there propounded shall be there decided by plurality of voyces 23. Over and above this It will be needfull to establish the
Order of Colloques and of Provinciall Synods consisting of Pastors and Antients deputed by the particular Churches and of Nationall Synods consisting of Pastors and Ancients deputed by the Provinciall Synods And that there may be a proceding in these holy Assemblies from step to step according to the quality and merit of Businesses 24. The Colloques may be held once or twice a yeare or oftner if there be businesses that require it The Provinciall Synods ought to be held once at the least in a yeare As for the Nationall Synods we conceive it will be sufficient that yee hold them from two to two or from three yeares to three yeares 25. The Ecclesiastique Assembly now sitting may make Rules touching the matters which the Consistorieâ— and Colloques shall judge definitively of as also of those which shall afterwards be carried to the Provinciall Synods and from the Provinciall to the National As when there is a Question that touches either the Interdiction or Deposition of Pastors 26. In all these Colloques and Synods as well Provinciall as Nationall after the invocation of the Name of God the President the Assessor or Assessors and the Secretaries should be Elected by plurality of voyces and after the end and shutting up of the Assembly they are to submit themselves as well as all the rest of the Company to the Censure of their Brethren 27. Those that are consecrated to the Holy Ministery after they have given good and sufficient testimony of their lives and manners ought to be examined in the Provinciall Synods or at least in the Colloques who having judged them capable are to send them with letters of Recommendation to those Churches that demand them where after they have by some Exercises or Sermons given a proofe of their gifts and the dexterity they have individing a right the Word of God and received the approbation of the people they receive the Imposition of Hands by the Pastors that are deputed for that purpose 28. This is a very profitable order that all the Pastors of a Colloque Preach there in their turnes and that their Sermons be subject to the charitable Censure of their Brethren 29. For that after the breaking up of the Assemblies they that presided in them have no more power then they had before the Calling of them To the intent there may alwaies be some constant and set order betweene the Churches Before such time as the Assembly part it ought to enjoyne some one certaine Church to give and receive the Advise of all the rest of the Churches of the Colloque or of the Province and to give it power in case of necessity to convocate a Colloque or Provinciall Assembly Extraordinarily The Nationall Synod ought also to give it in charge to the Provinciall Synod commit the care to call the Nationall Synod that is next to be to the Provinciall Synod 30. We are of Opinion that by the meanes of such an order once setled you will be able to remedy all that is amisse For on the one side there will be no primacy nor dominion of some particular Churches over others and on the other side you shall by that meanes chase out of the House of God all disorder and confusion 31. If whilst we studied to be briefe we be found obscure any where in this Discourse we are all ready to explaine our meanings and to make it cleerely appeare how exceeding sensible we are of your Interests as also what great contentment we take in this Brotherly Communication of yours with us 32. We know not what may be the Reasons of these Gentlemen you call Independents and we doubt not but you have both in England and Scotland gallant witts that are able men enough to refute them neverthelesse if you please to acquaint us with them we to testifie in testimony of the uniformity of our Opinions shall receive the communications as a respect unto us and will endeavour the Answer thereunto with charity Now the God of Patience and Consolation grant you all to thinke one and the same thing according to Iesus Christ to the end that you may all with one tongue and mouth glorifie the God the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ Amen IT is true that considering that the pretended Independency that some would bring in in England is the way to open a wide gate to a most fearfull confusion and that by the means therof the Devil is so busie to pull down whatsoever yee build up in my nineteenth Article I said That for very great very important and most just reasons it was resolved upon to abolish and pull downe the Episcopacy but that there was lesse mischiefe and inconvenience to permit it after a due correction of the Excesses of it and an abolishment of its Tyranny then to bring into the Church of God such an horrible confusion as seem'd to be conched and vayled under the name of INDEPENDENCY I freely confesse unto you that I am yet of the very same Opinion notwithstanding your reasoning to the contrary I say then 1. that though such a Tolerance might give somewhat to many to apprehend and suspect yet the Evills that could possibly thence arive would be without comparison farre lesse then those that this unbridled Licensing of Independents might introduce among you Now of two Evills you would doe well to choose the lesser 2. I conceived not that there was so great danger in tolerating the Bishops provided that they were ranged within the order of other Pastours so as that they might not have dominion over them but only a certaine Presidency and Commission to watch over their Brethren and that this Commission were given them by the Colloque or the Synod of the Province and that those Assemblies had the power in themselves to deprive them of it and to substitute others in their Places 3. There are many things established in the Government of the Church which formally and expresly are not to be found in the Word of God 4. It hath pleased God to give this in charge to those that he hath called to the guidance and Government of his Flock His Will is that All things in his House be done in order and to edification 5. You your self use yee not to choose from amongst your Pastors some persons to preside in your Colloques and in your Synods Is this formally and expresly in the Word of God A Presidency for certain Moneths or for certain Yeares is it of it selfe more faulty or criminall then that of yours for certaine daies or certaine weekes 6. Consider if it please you that Parker and other learned men of your Nation that have written against the Hierarchy declare how that were the Bishops in England but as the Pastors in Germany and Suitzer-land which they usuall stiley Inspectors and Super-intendents they would never goe about to put them downe 7. Put the case this order were established amongst the Pastors it were not properly to establish an office
that is not in the Word of God for if it be well thought on these Inspectors have not any other Office in the Church of God then the other Pastors they are but onely delegated by their Brethren and Fellow Ministers and have from them and by their order a Commission for a time to watch over their Brethren as their Brethren may have a like Commission when their turne comes to watch over them and their behaviours Iust so as if in a well governed Family Brethren should make an agreement to give some one amongst them a Commission to watch for a certaine time over the deportment of the rest and this without any domination or command 8. To conclude sir you and we may easily agree upon this Article For you beleeve you are bound absolutely to abolish the Bishops of England and to shut quite out of doores the confusion of the Independents my thoughts are the same and I approve your designe wholly beseeching God with all my heart that he would blesse the worke of your hands and that you may see those happy daies wherein the Churches of England being purely Reformed may enjoy the same Discipline which is holily established in those of Scotland You are pleas'd in your letter to adde something concerning the Independents but you doe but only alleadge that which they beleeve and touch not upon any of the Reasons upon which they ground themselves wherefore I shall but only give a slight touch with my Pen upon every one of your sven Articles As to the first I thanke you most affectionately for the Copies of your Covenant the which I had seene before and had praised God who is the Author of this Christian peace and of this holy agreement of which I expect great fruit to the glory of God and the edification of his Church 2. The Independents doe but make sport when they say they acknowledge that Synods and Colloques are of Divine Right and deny them notwithstanding any manner of jurisdiction over particular Churches This is to pull downe with one hand what they build with the other For I cannot comprehend what use at all there can be of Colloques and Synods if they have no jurisdiction over particular Churches and lesse yet how one particular Church can refuse to submit it selfe to a generall Assembly the which it acknowledges to be of Divine Right 3. Now to that that they will not admit any one for a member of their Congregation that hath not some notable and conspicuous markes of Regeneration I conceive not that this opinion can have many Followers for that the members of the Church consist either of the Infants of Beleevers or of persons of perfect Age. As for the children of Beleevers there is no difficulty at all for the Apostle calls them Saints in regard of the Covenant of God that sanctifies and makes them holy And as for the others either they are borne amongst us or they come to our party by Conversion As for them that are converted it is true that they ought not hand overhead to be admitted into the body of the Church and that it does well to have some prooses of their knowledge in Religion as also some testimonies of their holy Conversation to the end that the Church be not defiled with their unsoundnesse But in this Examination we must proceed with charity and not be over severe for feare of casting backe and destroying of him who is yet weake and feeble in the Faith For as much as concernes those that are already in the communion of the Church the Rules of the Word of God are expresse concerning them They whose sins are not publique and notorious we are to reprove and censure them in private otherwise it were to spread a scandall and to offend against charity which covers a multitude of sins These that sin publickly and whose sins are notoriously knowne to all or the greater part of the people are to be reproved publickly and the businesse is to be carried so as that an amends be made by a publicke repentance for publick scandalls in case that it be requisite for the edification of the Church If the Offences be enormious or if the Offenders chance to be hardned and obstinate in their wickednesle we are to cut them off by Excommunication and so to take from among us the old leven that it soure not the whole lump and that the accursed thing cause not Israel to turne her backe But the Offender how great or enormious so ever he be if he repent after a convenient time of triall of the truth of his repentance we are bound to have compassion of him and to readmit him to the peace of the Church that he be not swallowed up with sorrow and cast head-long into Despaire It were good we should avoid as the too great severity and rigidity of the Ancients so likewise the over great levity and indulgence that is in vogue amongst us at this day 4. As to that that they will have every particular member present at the deliberation of all businesses whatsoever without having any right of suffrage or Authority I conceive this stands in need of some good distinction for certaine occasions there are upon which a man may grant them more then they demand as at such times when there is any debate touching businesses that are extraordinary and that concern the whole Church in generall for example then when as the question is touching the vocation or admission of a Pastor into a Church In such a case I am of opinion that all the Masters of Families that belong to that Church not onely ought to be present at the Consultation but also that they are to have their voyce and suffrage therein But that they should be at all kinds of debates there seemes to be no colour for it this neither can be nor indeed is it expedient It cannot I say be for the Church having continually businesses whereon to deliberate how is it possible the whole Church should so often be congregated Againe I say it is no waies expedient for there are certain businesses which ought not to be divulged wherein Christian Prudence and secrecie are very necessary If some particular man were to be censured for some particular offence that few know of and which if it were known would in all likelyhood expose him to a visible and apparent danger were it fitting now to debate and deliberate touching the censuring of this man before the whole Congregation Meet we at no time with businesses of such a nature as wherein the simple people are neither capable of understanding the Reasons nor yet able to hold their peace Must we needs abandon all Affaires of the Church to the discretion of every particular man If the people were to assist in all Consultations what a noise what contestations what divisions what scandalls should we have For however some men perchance would forbeare to deliver an opinion yet they would be
shall shew hereafter that ye are not Separatistae nominales but reales If the Church lie now gasping as you complain who I pray can be the cause of it but your selves that vex and torment her more then Papists Arminians Anabaptists Socinians and all other Sects and Heresies besides ever yet did P. 2. sect 4. Thou art a strange Divine that consultest Astrologues about the Horoscope of my Book But to that I say no more but what the Prophet saith Stand up with thine enchantments and with the multitude of thy sorceries if so be thou maiest prevaile Let now the Astrologers the Star-gazers the monethly Prognesticators stand up Jer. 10.12 I am not dismayed at the signe of the heaven for the Heathen are dismaid at them I tell thee with all thy Chaldeans and Sorcerers I feare you not all Christians feare not such Prophets God hath raised us up a Prophet like to Moyses whom we must heare and Moyses tels thee that they who doe these things that thou doest are an abomination to the Lord Deut. 18.10 11 12 13 14 15. After this sect 6. in the same pag. he giveth out his judgement upon the title of my Book but without the least judgement or reason at all P. 3. Sect. 1. He accuseth me to be too peremptorious in determining the question and so anticipating the judgement of the Assembly Answ 1. If I anticipate so I must tell him does he with the rest of the Sectaries of his Faction in determining the question for his party 2. particular mens Determinations cannot anticipate the judgement of the Assembly or take it out of their hands as most ignorantly hee pretends for particular mens private Determinations are evermore subject to publike Determination 3. Neither is it necessary that when ever Sects or Heresies creepe into the Church wee should presently all begin to suspend our judgements in things revealed in Gods word and already determined by the Church as this is as we shall God willing hereafter make appeare and so stand ever gaping after new Decisions I should doe my selfe wrong to answer the 2 Sect. Which conteineth only his unreasonable judgement against me who say nothing of Independents but what I prove by evident Reasons And the judgements of Protestant Churches abroad here printed will decide this Controversie But what he saith from the rest of the third page till page the 6. Sect 3. it shall be an swered in a particular question P. 4. Sect. 2. A.S. his Observations are like a man with a Pole-ax knocking a man on the head to kill a fly lighting on his heard Answ What this man meaneth by his Pole-axe I know not I strike at no mans head If I strike at any fly it must be some Wasp and then either a Hornet that stingeth to death the Horse of whose dung it is bred or a Wasp with which Tertullian not unfitly compareth Sectaries faciunt favos vespae faciunt Ecclesias Marcionite quid ni Donatista P. 6. Sect. 3. He propounds himselfe for a pattern to me in writing But hee must excuse me if I tell him plainly I hold him not worthy the imitating neither may I ever so much reverence any of his party as to quit my Christian liberty to refute their extravagancies where ever I meet with them especially when they appeare to be of so pernicious a consequence As for the title of Most revenend that I gave them I learn't it in part of themselves that they are reverend and since their reverence is independent what else could I take it for but most reverend that acknowledge no superiour Reverence Sect. 5. Howsoever of his liberality hee bestow the lie on me I must pray him permit me to return it home again for what I said before by his good leave I must say again it is most true that in your particular Opinions ye differ from all true reformed Churches at least so far forth as they are distinguished from Conventicles and Schismaticall Assemblies And as for your Reformed Churches in England viz. Independent from which ye differ not 1. they are invisible 2. they are Schismaticall 3. and erected without the Civill Magistrates consent and such Churches your selves hold unlawfull turbulent Schismaticall and punishable in N.E. And if in N.E. wherefore I pray not in old England also Sect. 6. And as for that his conjecture that I wil object some Manuscripts and Master Parkers letter from N.E. and another from Zeland it is his mistake for it was not my intention to dispute in a liminary Epistle only I say of Master Parker since he puts me upon this subject that if he were at his liberty in O.E. as he is in servitude under that oppression of N.E. he might happily say more then he will be allowed to say there P. 7. Sect. 1. It is also a great mistake in him to think that their Discipline can be abused to ill it cannot be abused but to good P. 8 Sect. 1. It is an abominable accusation and a black calumnie that hee layeth upon the Reformed Churches of Zeland viz. that there are in their letters many high passages seeming so prejudiciall to our worthy Magistracy that it justifieth that of the Apologie 2. for that letter speaketh not at all of the Magistrate or Magistracy of England 2. It speaketh only of their own wherof this little Independent Minister is too bold to thinke himselfe a competent Judge Neither will they depend of him howbeit he should a spire to be as Independent as Lucifer himself 3. They speak not of all their Magistrates but of some and especially of those who joyned with the Arminian Sect The Arminians crying up their authority in the Spirituall government of the Church and these unworthy Magistrates crying down the Doctrine 4. Because the Government of Holland and the Magistrates power there is not like to that of England the one being Monarchicall or rather mixt of Monarchicall Aristocraticall and Democraticall as it is commonly holden here and the other Aristocraticall or mixt of Aristocracy and Democracy and therefore the rules of the one Government cannot be well drawn in consequence for the other 5. This M.S. cognomento Calumniator in this matter should have done well and gone more honestly to work if he had cited those high passages so prejudiciall to our worthy Magistracy but he shewes himselfe more cunning then so to discover his calumny 6. As for his sententious conclusion of this point with Verbum sapienti sat est a man very well affectioned to the Zelanders in reading of it added in the margin of the Book sed non insipientis nedum decipientis It is as great pitty so good men should have harboured so ill and so unthankfull Guests P. 9. Sect. 3. He speaketh as if he were a Prophet sent to reforme all the Churches of the world so did Bur Jesu and bringeth us in I know not what a Master Davenport like another Salomon in the way of N.E. casting out his
question As if I should goe about to prove that Christ according to his humane nature had a Body his due dimensions or qnantitie because all men have so But you should except Christ for so no man can prove any thing for evermore my Adversary shall except that which is in question 15. If all the people promiscuously may judge then they may judge without their Presbyters and Church-Officers But the Consequent is false E. The Antecedent from whence it is inferred is false also They will not deny the Assumption and it may be proved thus For without their Pastors and Seniors the Congregation cannot make a compleat Church the People being but one halfe thereof and their Rulers the other Besides that there may be some Cases wherein the People cannot judge alone as in point of Heresie and touching the capacitie of Ministers admitted to Preach The Consequence of the first Proposition may be proved thus For if they be all Judges and of foure hundred or five hundred foure or five or fifteen chance to be absent the rest may judge the number of those that are absent being no wayes considerable in respect of that which is present But so is the Case in the first Proposition Item Because if of the people two three or foure yea 20.30 or 40. be absent the Church-Officers with the rest will judge without them Why shall not then the People have the same power also in absence of the Church-Officers fince they have all alike power to judge viz. every man one voyce This Argument ariseth out of our Brethrens Supposition viz. that every one has power to judge and rule 16. I Would willingly aske our Brethren whether or no they thinke that an Ecclesiasticall Judgement can hold without the Peoples presence and voyces If it can hold then the peoples voycing is not absolutely needfull nor ex instituto divino For it cannot hold nor be just without that which God requires to make it just If it cannot hold without the Peoples voyces I ask againe whether all the peoples voyces be requisite or that the major part suffice If all it is impossible Morally neither see we ever almost that in a great Congregation all can meet together or if they meet together that all consent together yea nor in lesser Assemblies If the major part suffice as it must be said then can it not hold for if many be absent and of those that are present the major part surmount the lesser by 4.5.6 or 7. voyces then the lesser part may complaine that all the people were not present and so desire the businesse to be remitted to another meeting so that in conclusion no businesse should ever end unlesse all the people were present which ordinarily never or rarely falls out Item they fall into that very inconvenience which they presse so hard against their Brethren viz. that they that are absent shall be led by the nose and consent by an implicite Faith to a Judgement of Doctrine or of Discipline of great consequence for other mens judgements sake whereunto Formally they dissented For if Judgements of Consistories composed of Church-Officers alone cannot hold because then the People should be led by the nose and assent thereunto by an implicite Faith no more should the Judgement of the People in this present Case The same inconvenience or worse should fall out in voycing for if there were in the Assembly of 20000. 10000. for one part and the rest for the other Here all the rest should be led by one implicite Faith to consent against their own explicite Faith for here things are carried by pluralitie of voyces which are not weighed but accompted If only the Masters of Families or all Servants have power to voyce and if that may not procure partialities when a Father may draw his sons and servants to his opinion to voyce with him as he will 19. Besides this our Brethren must determine how many they require to accomplish the Assembly to the end that the Judgement may hold and be valeable How many for the discussion and voycing of the businesse and after it is voyced and judged how many to draw up the Sentence or Judgement for in this all Nations doe not agree neither one Senate in the Kingdome with another in another Kingdome nor one Senate in the same Kingdome with another nor one Senate with it selfe in divers times And if they determine it we pray them to draw their Determination thereof out of Gods word since they will admit of nothing concluded by naturall Reason or drawn from the Law of Nature 20. We may bring many more Reasons to shew the impossibilitie or at least the very great difficultic that is in this sort of Judicatory as the Case there should fall in many incidents as about refusing of some of the Judges some witnesses the Protestation of the nullity of the Judgement for sundry Reasons that all the Judges were not well informed of the matter some of them having given their Judgement before-hand some having promised to the party to judge so or so some of them having solicited others to judge so or so if all these Incidents should be discussed and passe by the voyces of 20000. men when should it be ended Wee might also bring other Reasons to shew how that sundry things in this Government are altogether repugnant to Ecclesiasticall Government as 21. That a man should be borne a Judge in Christs Church without any Election or Vocation to such a place But no man taketh this honour unto himselfe but he that is called of God as was Aaron Heb. 5.4 And truly there is no reason that a man yea that all men should rather be borne Judges in Gods Church then in the State 22. The Hang-man and the most ignominious persons in the world should be Judges here 23. Nothing could ever be decided for in case there were 5. or 6. divers Opinions you could decide according to none for if you followed that which had most voyces with it all the rest would voyce against it if that which had fewer they that had more would not suffer it so what ever should be said or done it should be controlled 24. We only adde Christs Command Math. 18.17 Tell it unto the Church 1. Unto the Representative Church and not to every one of the People for that should be impossible This passage our Brethren bring for them but surely it makes rather against them for Christ here establishing an Ecclesiasticall Judicatorie alludes to the order of the Jewes in their Synagogicall Judicatories and Sanedrim in Censuring of Vice and redressing of the grievances that Brethren received of Brethren in the Church for he abolishes not such Judicatories Quoad substantiam since they are grounded on the Law of Nature but quoad Circumstantias in so far as they are ordained by Moyses Captaine and the leader of the people of God or did only bind the people of the Iewes and had for Object the
a Deacon But the Consequence is false as is granted by all neither can every one of the People assist and give their voyce touching every Almes that must be given to the Poore yea it were very dangerous that every Poore man should Iudge for then all the Poore should Iudge one for another and hunt after the Deaconship that they might keep the purse or give their advise upon every point of Doctrine taught or to be taught nor should they then need to learne at the Sermons And before the Pastor should teach the People they must consult whether his Doctrine be sound or not As in governing we consult whether this or that is to be done censured or not censured 29. If every man hath power to rule we need no Ruling Elders for every member of the Church is a Ruling Elder since he may exercise Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction as the Ruling Elders doe But they hold the Consequent to be false Ergo. They may answer that Elders are needfull to debate things before they be propounded to the People But that is only the duty of a Committee and lesse then to Iudge and he who may have a deliberative and decisive voyce may debate the matter yea the matter being debated by the Elders may be debated again amongst the People so that their Debate should besuperfluous 30. Here to confirme this we may bring in all those passages of Scriptur which our Brethren bring against it as Christs Command Mat. 18. c. 1 Cor. 5. and 2 Cor. 2. They only have Iurisdiction and power of Excommunication in Christs Church whom St. Paul in those passages commands to cast out from amongst them and to admit the Incestuous person But not every one of the promiscuous multitude but those only that are of the Representative Body of the Church those only whom St. Paul commanded to cast out from amongst them and to admit the Incestious person Er. The first Proposition is granted by our Brethren the second is certain for that which is in the Text cannot appertaine to every one of the people This is written to all the Church of Corinth which was very great and consequently could not meete together as it is commanded verse 4. neither could every one of them deliver him to Sathan as it is commanded 5. neither can it be shewed from the Text that this is only said to growen men that have the use of Reason that doate not to the exclusion onely of Children of those that doate that want altogether or in part the use of Reason and of women Neither could every one comfort him forgive him c. as it is commanded 2 Cor. 2.7 and 15. Chapter For further proofe hereof we shall by and by bring the rest of the passages that they alleadge for evidence against them CAP. 2. Where the Independants Opinions are refuted THey object 1. some Passages of Scripture to prove that the Exercise of Iurisdiction belongeth to all the People promiscuously as Mat. 18.17 Tell the Chnrch all i. e. the People Acts 1. where the People did choose Matthias to the Apostleship Acts 6. where Deacons are chosen by the people Acts 14.23 where Priests or Elders are said to be chosen of the People i.e. by the Peoples suffrages signified by the stretching out of their hands Acts 15. in the difference about the Observation of the Ceremoniall Law 1 Cor. 5. and 2. Cor. 2. where the Incestuous person is excommunicated by the People and admitted againe to the Communion by the same People To all these I answer in order and 1. To that of Mat. 18.17 Tel the Church Ergo all the People I deny this Consequence for our Brethren themselves at least one great or the greatest part of them denies that we should delate every Offender to all the People as 1 to women 2. to children 3. To distracted Persons howsoever they be members of the Church 2. Neither can they produce any Passage of Scripture where the word Church is taken in this signification viz. for the collective Body of the Church to the exclusion of the greatest part therof viz. all women children distracted persons and vicious men or notorious sinners But of this we have said enough before To the second Passage Act. 1.15.1 Put the case that the word Disciples signifie the promiscuous multitude yet 2. I answer that it is not there said that every one of them gave their voyce but only that Peter stood up in the midst of the Disciples the number whereof was about 120.3 If every one of them voyced Ergo the women and Mary who are named v. 14. voyced also which is contrary to St. Pauls command that women are to keep silence in the Church 4. Only therefore those did voyce that had power to voyce viz. Church-Officers and not every one of the promiscuous multitude for the Reasons already alleadged And it may be confirmed 5. because it was not in the Peoples power to choose or not to choose an Apostle for he shewes from Psal 9. that another man must take his Bishopricke v. 20. Item he binds them in another point that some must be chosen of those men which had accompanied with the Apostles all the time that the Lord Iesus went in and out among them beginning from the Baptisme of Iohn unto the day he was taken up from amongst them Obj. But wherefore then sayes Peter v. 22. One must be ordained Answ To shew them that necessitate Praecepti of Gods command or rather to accomplish this Prophesie Psal 9. some man must be put in Iudas his place but hence it followes not that he was to be chosen by the People Obj. But wherefore then sayes the Text that the People appointed two viz. Barnabas and Matthias Answ The Text saies not that the People but that they viz. the Apostles and other Church-Officers peradventure they that accompanied with them at the time that the Lord Iesus went in and out amongst them 2. Besides this it is not for us to answer all these Questions or wherefore the Holy Ghost speakes so or so It suffices us to beleeve that which is spoken These things are written and said to the end that we should beleeve them It is our Brethrens part to prove from the Text that which they say otherwise we neither can nor will beleeve them 6. To give them more satisfaction and to answer sundry other Questions that may be proposed we distinguish in the Creation of a Minister two things 1. His Vocation to the Charge 2. His Admission unto the actuall Exercise thereof The 1. containes 1. the examen of his Life 2. the examen of his Doctrine 3. the act of Ordination or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 As for the first of these three it may be done by the Pastors and Ruling Elders by power of Iurisdiction and by the People by way of Accusation in declaring to the Assembly of Pastors and other Church-Officers what impediments they finde if so be that the Person that
is to be created Pastor be of a vicious and scandalous life The second belongs not to every one of the People but only to Church-Officers who are presumed capable to judge of Doctrine and of his ability for the Ministery Now whether this belongs to Pastors alone or to the Ruling Elders also I will not dispute only they say that they only can examine his Doctrine that have the capacity to judge of it To these two may be referred the voycing of his probitie and capacity for his Doctrine which belongs to the Pastors and Elders or to the Representative Church for howsoever the People may assist at the Action to accuse the person that is to be received of ill life or false doctrine or of ignorance yet for the Reasons above proposed they are not to be accepted in voycing either of his life or Doctrine but that belonging to the Pastors alone 1 Tim. 3.15 and chap. 5. v. 11 22. The third viz. the right of Ordination or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seemes only to belong to the Pastors neither doe our Brethren deny it and it may be proved from 1. Tim. 3.14 Tit. 1.5 As for the Admission or Acceptation of a Minister into a particular Church it belongs to the people or to the whole Congregation for as a Husband is not to be urged upon a woman against her will but it being not Concubitus consensus qui facit matrimonium no more is a Pastor upon a particular Church and howsoever he may goe to the Pulpit and preach among them yet unlesse they consent he is not their Minister Now to apply this to the present Passage I say that the examen of life and Doctrine in this Election of Matthias belonged to the Apostles and other Church Officers whereunto might be admitted such of the People as had the capacity so did the Deliberative and the Decisive voycing as likewise the power of Ordination belonged to the Church-Officers alone And yet the People were there 1. to propound if they knew any impediment against his Vocation 2. to know that he was chosen 3. to admit him as a Minister of the Universall Militant Church upon Earth and in this they might voyce 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. by giving their consent in stretching out their hands Neither can they or any man living draw any more from this Text But note here that the Vocation of a Minister Essentially and Formally consists in the Decisive voycing and in his Ordination The examen of his life and Doctrine are only Antecedents and the Admission of the people only Consequents of the Vocation and so Accidentally it belongs to the People but Essentially to Church-Officers only But what if the Congregation will not admit the Minister that is ordained A. I answer 1. That the Representative Church should not ordaine a Minister till they be assured of some Flock or Congregation that will admit him for their Minister 2. That if after they have promised to admit him they admit him not they doe wrong to the Church He is their true Pastor and they are to be commanded to admit him even as a woman that hath lawfully consented to marriage by her contracting of her selfe to such a man 3. If they will not obey neverthelesse he is a Minister yea their Minister and hath power to teach though he cannot exercise it for want of a Flock But it concernes the Church to provide him of some Flock 7. Others answer that the People may have a hand in the Election of their Church-Officers in Ecclesia constituenda such as this was but not in constituta The Passage which our Brethren bring out of Acts 6.2 3. and 5 6. prove not That every one of the people had power of Iurisdiction and of the voycing in the Election of the seven Deacons to the exclusion of children yong men men of weak Iudgement notorious Sinners and women for the Text hath no such thing in it 2. It may be doubted whether the multitude of the Disciples v. 2 3. signifie the promiscuous multitude or the multitude of the seventy Disciples chosen by Christ 3. But suppose it signifie generally Christs Disciples and not precisely those seventy yet it is not said that they created or ordained the Elders 4. The contrary may be concluded from the v. 4 5. Then the Twelve called the multitude of the Disciples unto them and said Looke yee among you seven men of honest report full of the Holy Ghost and wisedome whom we may appoint over this Businesse where yee see that the Apostles appointed their Deacons and not the People only the People sought out those seven men as knowing better what kind of men were among them then the Apostles And they presented them to the Apostles to be examined in their lives and Doctrine before the Church-Officers and to be ordained by them So that the Apostles 1. ordained the Office 2. commanded the People to seeke out honest Men. 3. examined them 4. and appointed or ordained them The people only had the power to inquire of their lives and to admit or approve them by their consent and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v. 5. After that They were ordained by the Church-Officers that were present in the whole Action and had seen all things passed without partiality as I have above declared 5. If the People had had any voyce here which cannot be collected out of this Text yet it should only follow that they had this power in Ecclesiâ constituendâ but not in constitutâ i. e. in the first Institution of Churches or Church-Officers but not in a Church already established and furnished with all her ordinary Church-Officers say others The Place Acts 14. verse 22. whereon they insist so much hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and when they had ordained them Elders in every Church Here they conceive that the word signifies to create Ministers by Suffrages of the People who had voyce in the creating of Elders A. To this some answer and that very probably that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hath three divers significations 1. that it signifies the same that the latin word suffragari or porrectis manibus suffiagia ferre to give their approbation by lifting up or stretching out their Hands 2. to choose in any fashion whatsomever Acts 10. verse 41.3 for the imposition of Hands commonly called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and so it is taken in some of the Fathers Writings so they say that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 here may be taken either in the second or third signification and that it cannot be proved from the Text that it is taken in the first But they take that for granted which they are not able to prove 2. Put the case it signifie here to ordaine by the Consent of the Peopte yet followes it not that this Consent of the People was a Voyce because it was not asked of every man a part neither hath the Text that nor can it be