on the account of separation from the Catholick church let him prove that that church is not made up of the universality of professors of the Gospell throughout the world under the limitations expressed that the union of it as such doth not consist in the profession of the truth and that the breach of that union whereby a man ceases to be a member of that Church is Schismes otherwise to tell me that I am a Sectary a Schismatick to fill up his pages with vaine surmizes and supposalls to talke of a difference and schsme among the members of the catholick church or the like impertinencies will never farther his discourse among men either rationall solid or judicious All that ensues to the end of this chapter is about the ordination of ministers wherein however he hath beē pleased to deal with me in much bitternesse of spirit with many clamours and false Accusations I am glad to find him p. 120. renouncing ordination from the Authority of the church of Rome as such for I am assured that by his so doing he can claime it no waie from by or through Rome for nothing came to us from thence but what came in and by the Authority of that Church CHAP. IX WE are now gathering towards what seems of most immediate concernment as to this Reverend Authors undertaking namely to treate of the nature of a particular church its union and the breach of that union the description I give of such a church is this It is a society of men called by the word to the obedience of the faith in Christ and joint performance of the worship of God in the same individuall ordinances according to the order by him prescribed This I professe to be a generall description of its nature waving all contests about accurate definitions which usually tend very little to the discovery or establishment of truth after some canvassing of this description our Author tells us that he grants it to be the definition of a particular church which is more then I intended it for only he adds that according to this description their churches are as true as ours which I presume by this time he knowes was not the thing in Question His ensuing discourse of the will of Christ that men should joine not all in the same individuall congregation but in this or that is by me wholly assented ūto and the matter of it contended for by me as I am able what he is pleased to adde about explicite covenanting and the like I am not at all for the present concerned in I purposely waved all expressions concerning it one way or other that I might not involve the businesse in hand with any unnecessary contests it is possible somewhat hereafter may be spoken to that subject in a tendency unto the reconciliation of the parties at variance His argument in the close of the Section for a Presbyterian church from Acts 20. 17. because there is mention of more elders then one in that Church and therefore it was not one single congregation I do not understand I think no one single congregation is wholly compleated according to the mind of Christ unlesse there be more elders then one it there should be elders in every Church and for my part so we could once agree practically in the matter of our churches I am under some apprehension that it were no impossible thing to reconcile the whole difference as to a Presbyterian church or a single congregation And though I be reproved a new for my pains I may offer ere long to the candid consideration of godly men something that may provoke others of better abilities and more leasure to endeavour the carrying on of so good a work Proceeding to the consideration of the unity of this church he takes notice of three things laid down by me previously to what I was farther to assert all which he grants to be true but yet will not let them passe without his animadversions The two first are that 1. a man may be a member of the Catholick invisible church and 2 of the visible Catholick church and yet not be joyned to a particular Church These as I said he ownes to be true but askes how I can reconcile this with what I said before namely that the members of the Catholick visible Church are initiated into the profession of the faith by Baptisme but where lies the difference why saith he Baptisme according to his principles is an ordinance of worship only to be enjoyed in a particular Church whilst he will grant what yet he doth denie but will be forced to grant that a minister is a minister to more then his owne church even to the Catholick Church and may administer Baptisme out of a particular church as Phillip did to the Eunuch A. How well this Author is acquainted with my principles hath been already manifested as to his present mistake I shall not complaine seeing that some occasion may be administred unto it from an expression of mine at least as it is printed of which I shall speak afterwards for the present he may be pleased to take notice that I am so far from confining Baptisme subjectively to a particular congregation that I do not believe that any member of a particular church was ever regularly baptized Baptisme precedes admission into Church membership as to a particular Church the subject of it is professing believers and their seed as such they have right unto it whither they be joined to any particular church or no suitable to this judgment hath been my constant and uninterrupted practise I desire also to know who told him that I deny a minister to be a minister to more then his own Church or averred that he may perform ministeriall duty only in and towards the members of his own congregation for so much as men are appointed the objects of the dispensation of the word I grant a man in the dispensation of it to act ministerially towards not only the members of the Catholick church but the visible members of the world also in contradistinction thereunto The third thing laid down by me whereunto also he assentes is that every believer is oblieged to join himselfe to some one of those Churches that there he may abide in Doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and prayer but my reasons whereby I prove this he saies he likes not so well and truly I cannot helpe it I have little hope he should like any thing well which is done by me Let him be pleased to furnish me with better and I shall make use of them but yet when he shall attempt so to doe it is odds but that one or other will find as many flawes in them as he pretends to do in mine But this he saith he shall make use of and that he shall make advantage of and I know not what as if he were playing a prize upon a stage The third reason is that which he likes
trouble of a Rejoinder His first attempt in this chapter is upon a short discourse of mine in my processe which I professe not to be needfull to the purpose in hand relating to some later disputes about the nature of this Church wherein some had affirmed it to be a Genus to particular churches which are so many distinct species of it and others that it was a totum made up of particular churches as its parts both which in some sense I denyed partly out of a desire to keep off all debates about the things of God frō being enwrapped and agitated in and under Philosophicall notions and faigned tearms of Art which hath exceedingly multiplied controversies in the world and rendred them endlesse and doth more or lesse streighten or oppose every truth that is so dealt withall partly because I evidently saw men deducing false consequents from the supposition of such notions of this Church for the first way our Reverend Author lets it passe onely with a remarke upon my dissenting from Mr Hooker of New England which he could not but note by the way although he approves what I affirme A worthy note as though all the brethren of the Presbyterian way were agreed among themselves in all things of the like importance or that I were in my judgment enthralled to any man or men so that it should deserve a note when I dissent from them Truly I blesse God I am utterly unacquainted with any such frame of spirit or bondage of mind as must be supposed to be in them whose dissent from other men is a matter of such observation One is my Master to whom alone my heart and judgement are in subjection for the latter I do not say absolutely that particular Churches are not the parts of the Catholique visible in any sense but that they are not so parts of it as such so that it should be constituted made up by thē of thē for the order and purpose of an instituted Church for the celebration of the worship of God and institutions of Christ according to the Gospell which when our Author proves that it is I shall acknowledge my selfe obliged to him He saies indeed that it was once possible that all the members of the Catholique Church should meet together to heare one sermon c. But he is to prove that they were bound to do so as that Catholique Church and not that it was possible for all the members of it under any other notion or consideration so to convene But he saies they are bound to do so still but that the multitude makes it impossible Credat Apella that Christ hath bound his Church to that which himselfe makes impossible Neither are they so bound they are bound by his own acknowledgement to be members of particular Churches in that capacity are they bound so to convene those churches being by the will of God appointed for the seat of ordinances And so what he adds in the next place of particular Churches being bound according to the institution of Christ to assemble for the celebration of ordinances is absolutely destructive of the former figment But he would know a reason why 40 or more that are not members of one particular church but only of the Catholick meeting together may not join together in all ordinances as well as they may meet to heare the word preached and often doe to which I answer that it is because Jesus Christ hath appointed particular Churches and there is more required to them then the occasionall meeting of some any or all if possible of the members of the Catholick church as such will afford His reflexions upon my selfe added in that place are now growne so common that they deserve not any notice In his ensuing discourse if I may take leave to speak freely to our Reverend Author he wrangles about termes and expressions adding to and altering those by me used in this businesse at his pleasure to make a talke to no purpose The summe of what he pretends to oppose is that this universall church or the universality of Professors considered as such neither formally as members of the church Catholick mistically Elect nor as any members of any Particular Church have not as such any Church forme of the institution of Christ by virtue whereof they should make up one instituted Church for the end and purpose of the celebration of the Ordinances of the Gospell therein If he suppose he can prove the contrary let him cease from cavilling at words and by expressions which is a facile taske for any man to engage in and no way usefull but to make controversies endlesse and answer my Reasons against it which here he passeth over and produce his testimonies and arguments for that purpose This triviall ventilation of particular passages cut off from their influence into the whole is not worth a nut-shell but is a businesse fit for them who have nothing else to employ themselves about Coming to consider the union that I assigne to this Church after whose breach an enquiry is to be made which is the maine and only thing of his concernment as to the aime he hath proposed to himselfe he passeth it over very slightly taking no notice at all of my whole discourse frō p. 116. top 133. of my treatise wherein I disprove the pretensions of other things to be the union or bond of union to this church he fixes a very little while on what I assigne to be that union This I say is profession of the faith of the Gospell and subjection to Jesus Christ according to it to which he adds that they are bound to more then this viz to the exercise of the same specificall Ordinances as also to love one another to subjection to the same discipline and where it is possible to the exercise of the same numericall worship All this was expresly affirm'd by me before it is all virtually contained in their profession so far as the things mentioned are revealed in the Gospell only as to the celebrating of the same numericall Ordinances I cannot grant that they are obliged hereunto as formally considered members of that Church nor shall untill our Reverend Author shall think meet to prove that particular congregations are not the institutions of Jesus Christ But hereupon he affirms that that is a strange assertion used by me pa 117. namely that if there be not an institution of joining in the same numericall ordinances the union of this Church is not really a Church union This is no more but what was declared before nor more then what I urged the testimony of a learned Presbyterian for no more but this that the universality of Christians throughout the world are not under such an institution as that to assemble together for the celebration of the same numericall Ordinances the pretence of any such institution being supplied by Christ's acknowledged institutiō of particular Churches for that purpose What I have offered
hath lien neglected on booksellers stalls for above these seven years For the rest of those principles which he excepts against as he thinks meet I leave their consideration to that farther enquiry which the Lord assisting I have destined them unto The way of gathering churches upon a supposition of their antecedency to officers he saies is very pretty and loads it with the difficulty of mens comming to be baptized in such a case but as I can tell him of that which is neither true nor pretty in the practise of some whom he knowes or hath reason so to do so I can assure him that we are not concerned in his objection about baptisme and with them who may possibly be so it is a ridiculous thing to think it an objection And for that part of my enquiry whether the Church be before ordinary officers or they before it as sleight as he is pleased to make of it it will be found to lie very near the bottome of all our differences and the right stating of it to conduce to the composure and determination of them His charges and reflexions which he casts about in his passage are not now to be further mentioned we have had them over and over indeed we have had little else If strong vehement passionate affirmations complaints charges falfe imputations and the like will amount to a demonstration in this businesse he hath demonstrated Independentisme to be a great Schisme He shuts up his discourse as he began it reciting my words by adding interposing perverting commenting enquiring he makes them speak what he pleases and compasses the ends of his delight upon them What contentment he hath received in his so doing I know not nor shall I expresse what thoughts I have of such a course of proceedure This only I shall say it is a facile way of writing treatises and proving what ever men have a mind unto My last taske is to look back to the beginning of this last chapter and to gather up in our passage what may seem to respect the businesse in hand and so the whole matter will be dismissed The plea insisted on for immunity from the charge of Schisme with reference to the Episcopall Government of the Church of England and the constitution which under it it is pretended to have had he passes over though on sundry accounts his concernments ly as deeply in it as in any thing pleaded In that treatise The things he is pleased to take notice of as far as they tend in the least to the issue of the debate between us shall be reviewed Considering the severall senses wherein that expression the church of England may be taken I manifest in my treatise in which of them and how far we acknowledg our selves to have been and to continue members of the Church of England The first is as it comprises the elect believers in England what the unity of the Church in this sense is was before evinced our desire to be found members of this Church with our indeavour to keep the unity of it in the bond of peace was declared I am greived to repeat our Reverend Authors exceptions to this declaration saies he unlesse he think there are no members of this church in England but those that are of his formed particular churches I fear he will be found to break the union that ought to be between them And why so I pray The union of the members of the church in this sense consists in their joint union to with Christ their head by one spirit What hath the Reverend Author to charge upon me with reference thereunto Let him speak out to the utmost yea I have some reason to think that he will scarce spare where he can strike God forbid that I should think all the members of the Catholick Church in England to be comprised either jointly or severally in their Churches or ours seeing it cannot be avoided but you will keep up those notes of division I doubt not but there be many thousands of them who walk neither with you nor us He adds that by gathering saints of the first magnitude we do what lies in us to make the Invisible Church visible It is confessed we do so yea we know that that church which is invisible in some respect and under one formall consideration is visible as to its profession which it makes unto salvation This with all that lies in us we draw them out unto what he addes about the churches being elect and the uncomely parts of it which they may be for a season who are elect believers because it must be spoken are uselesse cavills For the scornfull rejection of what I affirm concerning our love to all the members of this church and readinesse to tender them satisfaction in case of offence with his insinuatiō of my want of modesty and truth in asserting these thoughts because he will one day know that the words he so despises were spoken in sincerity and with the reverence of the great God out of love to all his Saints I shall not farther vindicate them such hay and stubble must needs burn My next profession of our Relation to the Church of England in respect of that denomination given to the body of professours in this Nation cleaving to the Doctrine of the Gospell here preached and established by Law as the publike profession of this Nation But he tels me first 1. That many Independent Churches in this Nation are grosly apostatized from that doctrine and so are hereticall 2. That the worship was professed and protested and established as well as the doctrine and that we are all departed from it and so are schismaticall for we hold communion with them he sayes in the same doctrine but not in the same worship Answer His first exception ariseth from the advantage he makes use of from his large use of the word Independent which will serve him in his sense for what end he pleaseth In the sense before declared his charge is denyed Let him prove it by instance if he be able surely God hath not given orthodox men leave to speak what they please without due regard to love and truth 2. As to the worship established in this nation by law he means the way of worship for the substantials of it we are all agreed in I suppose he will not say a relinquishment of the practice of it is schisme if he do I know what use some men will make of his affirmation though I know not how he will free himselfe from being schismaticall for his renewed charg of schisme I cannot I confesse be moved at it proceeding from him who neither doth nor will know what it is His next indeavour is to make use of another concession of mine concerning our receiving of our regeneration and new birth by the preaching of the word in England saying could they make use of our preaching c. but the truth is when the most of us
world of my thoughts herein in my book of Schisme I now informe him again that all thes surmises are fond untrue And truly for his own sake with that respect which is due to the reputation of Religion I here humbly intreate him not to entertain what is here affirm'd with un-Christian surmizes which the Apostle reckons amongst the works of the flesh as though I were of another mind but durst not declare it as more then onâ—â— in some particulars he insinuates the state of things with me to be But blessed be the God of my salvation and of all my deliverances I have yet liberty to declare the whole of my judgment in and about the things of his worship Blessed be God it is not as yet in the power of some men to bring in that their conceited happiness into England which would in their thoughts accrew unto it by my removall from my native soyle with all others of my judgment and perswasion We are yet at peace and we trust that the Lord will deliver us from the hands of men whose tender mercies are cruell However be it known unto them that if it be the will of the Lord upon our manifold provocations to give us up to their disposall who are pleased to compasse us with the ornaments of reproaches before mentioned that so we might fall as a sacrifice to rage or violence we shall through his assistance and presence with us dare to professe the whole of that truth and those waies of his which he hath been pleased to reveaâ— unto us And if on any other account this Reverend person suppose I may foster opinions and thoughts of mine owne and their waies which I dare not owne let him at any time give me a command to waite upon him and as I will freely and candidly answer to any enquiries he shall be pleased to make after my judgment and apprehensions of these things so he shall find that God assisting I dare owne and will be ready to maintaine what I shall so deliver to him It is a sufficient evidence that this reverend Author is an utter stranger to me or he would scarce entertaine such surmizes of me as he doth Shall I call in witnesses as to the particular under consideration one evidence by way of instance lies so neare at hand that I cannot omit the producing of it not above 14 daies before this treatise came to my hands a learned Gentleman whom I had prevailed withall to answer in the Vespers of our Act sent me his Questions by a Doctor of the Presbyterian judgment a friend of his and mine The first Question was as I remember to this purpose UtruÌ„ ministri Ecclesiae Anglicanae habeant validam ordinationem I told the Doctor that since the Questions were to passe under my approbation I must needs confesse my selfe scrupled at the limitation of the subject of the Question in that terme Ecclesia Anglicana which would be found ambiguous and aequivocall in the disputation and therefore desired that he would rather supply it with Ecclesiarum reformatarum or some other expression of like importance but as to the thing it selfe aimed at namely the assertion of the ministry of the Godly ministers in England I told him and so now do the Reverend Author of this treatise that I shall as willingly ingage in the defence of it with the lawfulnesse of their Churches as any man what ever I have only in my treatise questioned the institution of a nationall Church which this Author doth not undertake to maintaine nor indeed hath the least reason so to do for the asserting of true ministers and Churches in England I meane those of the Presbyterian way What satisfaction now this Reverend Author shall judge it necessary for him to give me for the publicke injury which voluntarily he hath done me in particular for his attempt to expose me to the censure and displeasure of so many godly ministers and Churches as I owne in England as a person denying their ministry and Church station I leave it to himselfe to consider And by the declaration of this mistake how great a part of his book is waved as to my concernments therein himsefe full well knows A second principle of like importance which he is pleased to make use of as a thing granted by me or at least which he assumes as that which ought so to be is that what ever the Presbyterian ministers and Churches be I have separated from them as have done all those whom he calls Independants This is another fountaine out of which much bitter water flows Hence we must needs be thought to condemne their ministry and Churches The Brownists were our fathers and the Anabaptists are our elder Brothers we make an harlot of our mother and are Schismaticks and Sectaries from one end of the book to the other Quod erat demonstrandum But doth not this Reverend Author know that this is wholly denyed by us Is it not disproved sufficiently in that very Treatise which he undertakes to answer He grants I suppose that the separation he blames must respect some union of Christs institution for any other we professe our selves unconcerned in its maintenance or dissolution as to the businesse in hand Now wherein have we separated from them as to the breach of any such union For an individuall person to change from the constant participation of ordinances in one congregation to do so in another barely considered in its selfe this Reverend Author holds to be no separation However for my part who am forced to beare all this wrath and storme what hath he to lay to my charge I condemne not their Churches in generall to be no Churches nor any one that I am acquainted withall in particular I never disturb'd that I know of the peace of any one of them nor separated from them but having already received my punishment I expect to heare my crime by the next returne 3. He supposeth throughout that I deny not only the necessity of a successive ordination but as farre as I can understand him the lawfulnesse of it also By ordination of Ministers many upon a mistake understand onely the imposition of hands that is used therein Ordination of Ministers is one thing and imposition of hands another differing as whole and part Ordination in Scripture compriseth the whole Authoritative translation of a man from among the number of his brethren into the state of an officer in the Church I suppose he doth not thinke that this is denied by mee though he tels me with the same Christian candor and tendernesse which he exerciseth in every passage almost of his booke of making my selfe a Minister and I know not what I am I blesse the Lord extreamly remote from returning him any of his own coyne in satisfaction for this Love For that part of it which consists in the imposition of hands by the Presbytery where it may be obtained according to the mind of Christ
he will yet proceed and Sec. 13. informe his Reader that in that Treatise I aver that two things are required in a teacher as to formall ministeriall teaching 1. Gifts from God 2 Authority frō the Church well what then I am of the same mind still but now I cry down ordination by Presbytery what is not this a great alteration and signe of inconstancy Truly Sir there is more need of humiliation in your selfe then triumphing against me for the assertion is most untrue and your charge altogether groundlesse which I desire you would be satisfied in and not to be led any more by evill surmises to wrong mee and your owne soule He addes sect. 14. two cautions which in that treatise I give to private Christians in the exercise of their gifts and closeth the last of them with a Juvenile Epiphonema divinely spoken and like a true Presbyterian and yet there is not one word in either of these cautions that I do not still own and allow which confirmes the unhappinesse of the charge Of all that is substantiall in any thing that followes I affirme the same as to all that which is gone before Onely as to the liberty to be allowed unto them which meet in private who cannot in conscience joyne in the Celebration of publike ordinances as they are performed amongst us I confesse my selfe to be otherwise minded at present than the words there quoted by this Author do expresse But this is nothing to the difference between Presbytery and independency and he that can glory that in 14. yeares he hath not altered or improved in his conception of some things of no greater importance then that mentioned shall not have me for his rivall And this is the summe of M◠C. Appendix the discourse whereof being carried on with such a temper of spirit as it is and suited to the advantage aimed at by so many evill surmises false suggestions and uncharitable reflections I am perswaded the taking of that paines will one day be no joy of heart unto him CHAP. 3. A Review of the chargers Preface HIs first chapter consists for the most part in a repetition of my words or so much of the discourse of my first Chapter as he could wrest by cutting off one and another parcell of it from its coherence in the whole with the interposure of glosses of his own to serve him to make biting reflexions upōthem with whom he hath to deale How unbecoming such a course of procedure is for a person of his worth gravity and profession perhaps his {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} have by this time convinced him If men have a mind to perpetuate controversies unto an endlesse fruitlesse reciprocation of words and cavils if to provoke to easie and facile retorsions if to heighten and aggravate differences beyond any hope of reconciliation they may do wel to deale after this manner with the writings of one another Mr. C. knowes how easie it were to make his owne words dresse him up in all those ornaments wherein he labours to make me appeare in the world by such glosses inversions additions and interpositions as he is pleased to make use of but meliora speramus Some particulars that seem to be of any importance to our businesse in hand may be remarked as we passe through it pag. 1. He tels us the Donatists had two principles 1. that they were the onely Church of Christ in a corner of Africk and left no Church in the world but their owne 2. That none were truly baptized or entred members of the Church of Christ but by some Minister of their party These Principles he saies are againe improved by men of another party whom though yet he name not yet it is evident whom he intends and pag 3. he requires my judgement of those principles Because I would not willingly be wanting in any thing that may tend to his satisfaction though I have some reason to conjecture at my unhappinesse in respect of the event I shall with all integrity give him my thoughts of the principles expresséd above 1. Then if they were considered in reference to the Donatists who owned them I say they were wicked corrupt erroneous principles tending to the disturbance of the communion of Saints and everting all the rules of love that our Lord Jesus Christ hath given to his disciples and servants to observe if he intend my judgment of them in reference to the Churches of England which he calls independent I am sorry that he should thinke he hath any reason to make this inquiry I know not that man in the world who is lesse concerned in obteining Countenance to those principles then I am Let them who are so ready on all occasions or provocations to cast abroad the solemne formes of reproach Schismaticks Sectaries Hereticks and the like search their owne hearts as to a conformity of spirit unto these principles It is not what men say but what men doe that they shall be judged by As the Donatists were not the first who in story were charged with Schisme no more was their Schisme confined to Africk The agreement of multitudes in any principles makes it in its selfe not one whit better and in effect worse For my part I acknowledge the Churches in England Scotland and France Helvetia the netherlands Germany Greece Muscovia c. as far as I know of them to be true Churches such for ought I know may be in Italy or Spaine and what pretence or colour this Reverend person hath to fix a contrary perswasion upon me with so many odious imputations and reflections of being one of the Restorers of all lost Churches and the like I professe I know not These things will not be peace in the latter end shall the sword devour for ever I dare not suppose that he will aske why then do I separate from them he hath read my booke of Schisme wherein I have undeniably proved that I have separated from none of them and I am loath to say though I feare before the close of my discourse I shall be compelled to it that this Reverend Author hath answered a matter before he understood it confuted a book whose maine and chiefe designe he did not once apprehend The rest of this chapter is composed of reflections upon me from my owne words wrested at his pleasure and added to according to the purpose in hand and the taking for granted unto that end that they are in the right we in the wrong that their Churches are true churches and yet not esteemed so by me that we have separated from those churches with such like easie suppositions He is troubled that I thought the mutuall chargings of each other with Schisme between the Presbyterians and Independents was as to its heat abated and ready to vanish wherein he hath invincibly compelled me to acknowledge my mistake and I assure him I am heartily sorry that I was mistaken it will not be
discipline instituted by Christ is corrupted among them with which corruption he dares not defile himselfe is no where in the Scripture called Schisme nor is that case particularly exemplified or expressely supposed whereby a Judgment may be made of the fact at large but we are left upon the whole matter to the guidance of such generall rules and principles as are given us for that end and purpose Such is my meanesse of apprehension that I could not understand but that either this assertion must be subscribed unto as of irrefragable verity or else that instances to the contrary must have been given out of the Scripture for on that hinge alone doth this present controversie and that by consent turne it selfe But our Reverend Author thinks good to take another course for which his reasons may easily be conjectured and excepts against the assertion it selfe in Generall first as ambiguous and fallacious And then also intimates that he will scan the words in perticular Mihi jussa capessere c. 1. He saies that I tell not whither a man may separate where there is corruption in some one of these onely or in all of them nor 2. How farre some or all of these must be corrupted before we separate A. This is no small vanity under the sunne that men will not onely measure themselves by themselves but others also by their own measure Our Author is still with his finger in the sore and therefore supposes that others must needs take the same course Is there any thing in my assertion whither a man may separate from any church or no any thing upon what Corruption he may lawfully so do any thing of stating the difference betwixt the Presbiterians and Independants do I at all fix it on this foâ—t of account when I come so to doe I humbly beg of this Author that if I have so obscurely and intricately delivered my selfe and meaning that he cannot come to the understanding of my designe nor import of my expressions that he would favour me with a command to explain my selfe before he engage into a publicke refutation of what he doth not so clearly apprehend Alas I do not in this place in the least intend to justify any separation nor to shew what pleas are sufficient to justify a separation nor what corruption in the church separated from is necessary thereunto nor at all regard the controversie his eye is allwaies on but onely declare what is not comprised in the precise Scripture notion of Schisme as also how a Judgment is to be made of that which is so by me excluded whither it be good or evill Would he have been pleased to have spoken to the businesse in hand or any thing to the present purpose it must not have been by an inquiry into the grounds reasons of separation how farre it may be justified by the plea mentioned or how farre not when that plea is to be allowed and when rejected but this only was incumbent on him to prove namely that such a separation upon that plea or the like is called Schisme in the Scripture and as such a thing condemned What my concernment is in the ensuing observations that the Judaicall Church was as corrupt as ours that if a bare plea true or false will serve to justifie men all separatists may be justified he himselfe will easily perceive But however I cannot but tell him by the way that he who will dogmatize in this controversy from the Judaicall Church and the course of proceedings amongw them to the direction and limitation of duty as to the churches of the Gospel considering the vast important differences between t he constitutions of the one the other with the infallible obligation to certain principles on the account of the typicall institution in that Primitive Church when there neither was nor could be any more in the world must expect to bring other Arguments to compasse his designe then the analogie pretended For the justification of Separatists of the reason if it will ensue upon the examination for separation and the circumstances of the seperating whereunto I referre them let it follow and let who will complain But to fill up the measure of the mistake he is ingaged in he tells us pag. 75. that this is the pinch of the question whither a man or a company of men may separate from a true Church upon a plea of CorruptioÌ„ in it true or false set up another Church as to ordinances renouncing that Church to be a true Church This saith he is plainely our case at present with the Doctor and his Associates truly I do not know that ever I was necessitated to a more sad and fruitlesse imployment in this kind of labour and travaile Is that the question in present agitation is any thing word title or iota spoken to it is it my present businesse to state the difference between the Presbyterians and Independents do I anywhere do it upon this account do I not every where positively deny that there is any such separation made nay can common honesty allow such a state of a question if that were the businesse in hand to be put upon me are their ordinances and churches so denied by me as is pretended what I have often said must again be repeated The Reverend Author hath his eye so fixed on the difference between the Presbyterians and the Independants that he is at every turn lead out of the way into such mistakes as it was not possible he should otherwise be overtaken withall this is perhaps mentis gratissimus error But I hope it would be no death to him to be delivered from it When I laid downe the principles which it was his good will to oppose I had many things under consideration as to the settling of Conscience in respect of manifold oppositions and to tell him the truth least valued that which he is pleased to mannage and to look upon as my sole intendment if it be not possible to deliver him from this strong imagination that carries the images and species of Independency alwaies before his eies we shall scarce speak ad idem in this whole discourse I desire then that he would take notice that as the state of the controversy he proposes doth no more relate to that which peculiarly is pretended to ly under his consideration then any other thing whatever that he might have mentioned so when the peculiar difference between him and the Independents comes to be mannaged scarce any one terme of his state will be allowed Exceptions are in the next place attempted to be put in to my assertion that there is no example in the Scripture of any one Churches departure from the union which they ought to hold with others unlesse it be in some of their departures from the common faith which is not Schisme much with the same successe as formerly let him produce one instance and En Herbam I grant the Roman church on a
to church priviledges they are indeed in some places as to providentiall advantages of hearing the word preached but woe unto them on that account it shall be more tolerable for Mahumetans in that day of Christ then for them shall their Baptisme availe them though it were valid in its administration that is was celebrated in obedience to the cōmād of Christ is it not null to thē is not their circumcision uncircūcision shall such persons give their children any right to church priviledges let them if you please be so subjects to Christ as Rebells and Traitors are subject to their earthly princes they ought indeed to be so but are they so do they owne their Authority are they obedient to them do they enjoy any priviledge of Lawes or doth the Apostle anywhere call such persons as live in a course of wickednesse manifesting principles utterly inconsistent with the profession of the Gospell brethren God forbid we should once imagine these things so to be And so much for that chapter CHAP. VIII Of Independentisme and Donatisme THe Title of our Authors book is Independency a great Schisme of this chapter that it may be the better known what kind of schisme it is Independentisme is Donatisme Men may give what title they please to their books and chapters though perhaps few books make good their titles I am sure this doth not as yet nisi accusasse sufficiat Attempts of proof we have not as yet met withall what this chapter will furnish us withall we shall now consider He indeed that shall weigh the title Independentisme is Donatisme then casting his eye upon the first lines of the chapter it selfe find that the Reverend Author saies he cannot but acknowledge that what I plead for the vindication of protestants from the charge of schisme in their separation from Rome as the Catholick church to be rationall solid and judicious will perhaps be at a losse in conjecturing how I am like to be dealt withall in the following discourse a little patience will let him see that our Author laies more weight upon the Title then the preface of this chapter and that with all my fine trappings I am enrolled in the black booke of the Donatists but 1 quod fo rs feret feramus aequo animo or as another saith debemus optare optima cogitare difficulima ferre quaecunque erunt as the case is fallen out we must deal with it as we can 1. He saith he is not satisfied that he not only denies the Church of Rome so called to be a particular Church pag. 154. but also affirms it to be no Church at all That he is not satisfied with what I affirm of that Synagogue of Sathan where he hath his throne I cannot helpe it though I am sorry for it I am not also without some trouble that I cannot understand what he means by placeing my words so as to intimate that I say not only that the church of Rome is no particular church but also that it is no church at all as though it might in his judgment or mine be any Church if it be not a particular church For I verily suppose neither he nor I judg it to be that Catholick Church whereto it pretends But yet as I have no great reason to expect that this Reverend Author should be satisfied in any thing that I affirme so I hope that it is not impossible but that without any great difficulty he may be reconciled to himselfe affirming the very same thing that I do p. 113. It is of Rome in that sence wherein it claims it self to be a church that I speak in that sence he saies it is no church of Christs institution and so for my part I account it no church at all but he adds that he is far more unsatisfied that I undertake the cause of the Donatists and labour to exempt them from Schisme though I allow them guilty of other crimes But do I indeed undertake the cause of the Donatists do I plead for thē will he manifest it by saying more against them in no more words then I haved one do I labour to exempt them from Schisme are these the waies of peace love and truth that the Reverend Author walks in do I not condemne all their practises and pretensions from the beginning to the end can I not speak of their cause in Reference to the Catholick Church and its union but it must be affirmed that I plead for them But yet as if righteousnesse and truth had been observ'd in this crimination he undertakes as of a thing granted to give my grounds of doing what he affirms me to have done The first is as he saies His singular notion of Schisme limiting it only to differences in a particular Assembly 2. His jealousy of the charge of Schisme to be objccted to himselfe and party if separating from the true Churches of Christ be truly called Schisme A. What may I expect from others when so grave and Reverend a person as this Author is reported to be shall thus deal with me Sr I have no singular notion of Schisme but embrace that which Paul hath long since declared nor can you manifest any difference in my notion from what he hath delivered nor is that notion of Schisme at all under consideration in Reference to what I affirme of the Donatists who in truth were concerned in it the most of them to them to the utmost but the union of the Church Catholick and the breach thereof Neither am I jealous or fearfull of the charge ' of Schisme from any person living on the earth and least of all from men proceeding in church affaires upon the principles you proceed on Had you not been pleased to have supposed what you please without the least ground or colour or reason perhaps you would have as little satisfyed your selfe in the charge you have undertaken to manage against me as you have done many good men as the case now stands even of your own judgment in other things Having made this entrance he proceeds in the same way and pag. 164. laye's the foundation of the title of his booke this chapter of his charge of donatisme in these words This lies in full force against him and his party who have broken the union of our churches and separated themselves from all the protestant churches in the world not of their own constitution and that as no true churches of Christ this I say is the foundatiō of his whole ensuing discourse all the groūd that he hath to stand upon in the defence of the Invidious title of this chapter and what fruit he expects from this kind of proceeding I know not The day will manifest of what sort this work is Although he may have some mistaken apprehensions to countenance his conscience in the first part of his assertion or that it may be forgiven to inveterate praejudice though it be false namely that I and my party
that 's the phraseology this Author in his love to unity delights in have broken the union of their churches which we have no more done then they have broken the union of ours for we began our reformation with them on even tearms and were as early at work as they yet what coulour what excuse can be invented to alleviate the guilt of the latter part of it that we have separated from all the reformed churches as no churches and yet he repeats this again pag. 106. with especiall reflexion on my selfe I wonder not saith he that the Doctor hath unchurched Roome for he hath done as much to England and all forraign protestant churches and makes none to be members of the church but such as are by covenant and consent joyned to some of their congregations Now truly though all righteous laws of men in the world will afford recompence and satisfaction for calumniating accusations and slaunders of much lesse importance then this here publickly ownd by our Reverend Author yet seeing the gospell of the blessed God requires to forgive and passe by greater injuries I shall labour in the strength of his grace to bring my heart unto conformity to his will therein notwithstanding which because by his providence I am in that place and condition that others also that fear his name may be some way concern'd in this unjust imputatiō I must declare that this is open unrighteousness wherein neither love nor truth hath been observed How little I am concernd in his following parallell of Independentisme and Donatisme wherein he proceeds with the same truth and candor or in all that followes thereupon is easy for any one to judg He proceeds to scan my Answers to the Romanists as in reference to their charge of Schisme upon us and saies I do it sutable to my own principles And truly if I had not I think I had been much to blame I referre the Reader to the Answers given in my book and if he like them not notwithstanding this Authors exceptions I wish he may fix on those that please him better in them there given my conscience doth acquiesce But he comes in the next place to Arguments wherein if he prove more happy then he hath done in Accusations he will have great cause to rejoyce By a double Argument as he saies he will prove that there may be Schisme besides that in a particular Church His first is this Schisme is a breach of Union but there may be a breach of union in the Catholick visible church His second this where there are differenccs raysed in matter of faith professed wherein the union of the Catholick Church consists there may be a breach of union but there may be differences in the Catholick or among the members of the Catholick church in matter of faith professed Ergo Having thus laid down his Arguments he falls to conjecture what I will answer and how I will evade but it will quickly appear that he is no lesse unhappy in arguing and conjecturing then he is and was in accusing For to consider his first Argument if he will undertake to make it good as to its forme I will by the same way of arguing ingage my selfe to prove what he would be unwilling to find in a regular conclusion But as to the matter of it 1. Is Schisme every breach of union or is every breach of Union schisme Schisme in the Ecclesiasticall notion is granted to be in the present dispute the breach of the union of a church which it hath by the institution of Christ and this not of any union of Christs institution but of one certaine kind of union for as was proved there is an union whose breach can neither in the language of the Scripture nor in reason nor common sense be called or accounted schisme nor ever was by any man in the world nor can be without destroying the particular nature of schisme and allowing only the generall notion of any separation good or bad in what kind soever So that secondly it is granted not onlie that there may be a breach of union in the Catholick church but also that there may be a breach of the union of the Catholick church by a deniall or relinquishment of the profession wherein it consists but that this breach of union is sehisme because sehisme is a breach of union is as true as that every man who hath two eyes is every thing that hath two eyes For his second it is of the same importance with the first there may be differences in the Catholick church and breaches of union among the members of it which are far enough from the breach of the union of that church as such Two professors may fall out and differ and yet I think continue both of them professors still Paul and Barnabas did so Chrysostome and Epiphanius did so Cyrill and Theodoret did so That which I denied was that the breach of the union of the catholick church as such is Schisme He proves the contrary by affirming there may be differences among the members of the catholick church that do not break the union of it as such But he saies though there be Apostasy or Heresy yet there may be Schisme also but not in respect of the breach of the same union which only he was to prove Besides evill surmizes reproaches false criminations and undue suggestions I find nothing wherein my discourse is concerned to the end of this chap. pag. 109. upon the passage of mine we are thus come off from this part of Schisme for the relinquishment of the Catholick church which we have not done and so to do is not schisme but a sin of another nature and importance he adds that the ground I goe upon why separation from a true church he must meane the catholick church or he speaks nothing at all the businesse in hand is no schisme is that afore mentioned that a schisme in the Scripture notion is onely a division of jugment in a particular assembly But who so blind as they that will not see the ground I proceeded on evidently openly solely was taken from the nature of the Catholick church its union and the breach of that union and if obiter I once mention that notion I do it upon my confidence of its truth which I here againe tender my selfe in a readinesse to make good to this Reverend Author if at any time he will be pleased to command my personall attendance upon him to that purpose To repeat more of the like mistakes and surmizes with the wranglings that ensue on such false suppositions to the end of this chapter is certainly needlesse for my part in and about this whole businesse of separation from the catholick church I had not the least respect to Presbyterians or Independents as such nor to the differences betweē them which alone our Author out of his zeale to truth and peace attends unto If he will fasten the guilt of Schisme on any
the mercy of God in Jesus Christ I can freely forgive unto you all your reproaches revilings hard censurings and endeavours to expose me to publick obloquie and yet hope that I may have before we dy a place in your heart and prayers CHAP. X. Independency no Schisme WE are come now to the chapter that must do the work intended or else operam oleum perdidimus Independentisme a great Schisme is the title of it what this Independentisme is he doth neither here declare nor in any other part of his book nor do I know what it is that he intends by it I heare indeed from him that it is a schisme a Sect but of what peculiar import or wherein it consists he hath not declared I suppose he would have it taken for separation from true Churches but neither doth the notion of the name though invidiously broached and disavowed by them to whom it is ascribed import any such thing nor is the thing it selfe owned by them with whom he pretends to have to do I find indeed that he tells us that all Sectaries are Independents Anabaptists Seekers Ranters Quakers Doth he expect that I should undertake their defence what if it should appear that I have done more against them then our Reverend Author and many of his brethren joined with him he may perhaps be willing to load my selfe and those which he is pleased to call my associats my party I know not what with their evills and miscarriages But is this done as becomes a Christian a Minister a Brother what security hath he that had he been the only judge and disposer of things in Religion in this nation if I and my associats had been sent to plant Churches among the Indians that he should have prevented the eruption of the errors and abominations which we have been exercised withall in this generation unlesse he had sent for Duke D'Alva's instruments to work his ends by and indeed there is scarce any Sect in the nation but had they their desires they would take that course This may be done by any that are uppermost if they please But how shall we know what it is he intends by Independentisme All it may be that are not Presbyterians are Independents Among these some professedly separate both frō them us for there are none that separate from them but withall they separate from us that I know of because as they say neither theirs nor ours are true Churches we grant them to be true Churches but withall denie that we separate from them is it possible at once to defend both these sects of men is it possible at once with the same arguments to charge them The whole discourse then of our Reverend Author being uniforme it can concerne but one of these sects of Independents which it is any man may judge that takes the least view of his treatise He deals with them that unchurch their Churches unminister their ministers disanull their ordinances leaving them Churchless officerlesse and in the like sad condition Is this Independentisme a Schism though that it is properly so called he cānot prove yet I hope he did not expect that I should plead for it what I shall do in this case I professe well I know not I here denie that I unminister their ministers unchurch their Churches hath this Author any more to say to me or those of my perswasion doth not this whole discourse proceed upon a supposition that it is otherwise with them with whom he hath to do only I must tell him by the way that if he suppose by this concession that I justifie and owne their way wherein they differ from the congregationall ministers in England to be of Christs institution or that I grant all things to be done regularly among them and according to the mind of Christ therein I must professe he is mistaken In breife by Independentisme he intends a separation from true Churches with condemning them to be no churches and their Ministers no Ministers and their ordinances none or Antichristian whatever becomes of the nature of schisme I disavow the appearing as an advocate in the behalfe of this Independentisme If by Independentisme he understand the peaceable proceeding of any of the people of God in this nation in the severall parts of it to joine themselves by their free consent to walk together in the observation and celebration of all the ordinanees of Christ appointed to be observed and celebrated in particular churches so to reforme themselves from the disorders wherein they were intangled being not able in some things to joine in that way of reformation which many godlie ministers cōmonly called Presbyterians have ingaged in and seek to promote without judging condemning thē as to the whole of their station or ordināces If this I say be intended by Independentisme when the Reverend Author shall undertake to prove it Schisme having not in this book spoken one word or title to it his discourse will be attended unto This whole chapter then being spent against them who deny them to be true Churches and defend separation I marvaile what can be said unto it by me or how I come to be concerned in it who grant them true Churches and denie separation But our Reverend Author knowing that if this bottome be taken from under him he hath no foundation for any thing he asserts thought it not sufficient to charg me over and over with what is here denyed but at length attempts to make it good frō mine own words which if he doth effect make good I confesse he changes the whole nature and state of the dispute in hand Let ut see thenhow he answers this undertaking From those words of mine the reformation of any church or any thing in it is the reducing of it to its primitive institution approving the assertion as true he labors to evince that I deny their Churches to be true Churches how so I pray why we erect new churches out of no Churches and it had been happy for England if we had all gone to do this work among the Indians What will prove Englands happinesse or unhappinesse the day will manifest this is but mans day and judgment He is coming who will not judg by the seeing of the eye nor by the hearing of the ear In the mean time we blesse God think all England hath caus to blesse God what ever become of us that he and our brethren of the same mind with him in the things of God have their liberty to preach the gospell and carry on the work of reformation in their native soyle and are not sent into the ends of the earth as many of ours have been But how doth our gathering of Churches denie them to be true churches Doth our granting them to be true Churches also grant that all the Saints in England are members of their Churches It is notoriously known that it is and was otherwise and that when they and we
began to reform thousands of the people of God in these nations had no reason to suppose themselves to belong to one particular Church rather then another They lived in one parish heard in another removed up and down for their advantage and were in bondage on that account all their daies But he saies in some words following I discover my very heart I cannot but by the way tell him that it is a sufficient evidence of his unacquaintednesse with me that he thinks there is need of searching and racking my words to discover my very heart in any thing that belongs though in never so remote a distance to the worship of God All that know me know how open and free I am in these things how ready on all occasions to declare my whole heart it is neither fear nor favour can influence me unto another frame But what are the words that make this noble discovery They are these that follow When any Society or combination of men what ever hitherto it hath been esteemed is not capable of such a reduction and revocation that is to its primitive institution I suppose I shall never provoke any wise or sober person if I professe I cannot look on such a society as a church of Christ His reply hereunto is the hinge upon which his whole discourse turneth and must therefore be considered Thus then he is not this reader at once to unchurch all the churches of England since the reformation for it is known during the raign of the prelates they were not capable of that reduction and what capacity our Churches are now in for that reduction partly by want of power and assistance from the magistrate without which some dare not set upon a reformation for fear of a praemunire partly by our divisions amongst our selves fomented by he knowes whom he cannot but see as well as we lament And hereupon he proceeds with sundry complaints of my dealing with them And now Chistian Reader what shall we say to these things A naked supposition of no strength nor weight that will not hold in any thing or case namely that a thing is not to be judged capable of that which by some externall force it is withheld from is the sole bottome of all this charge The Churches of England were capable of that reduction to their primitive institution under the prelates though in some things hindred by them from an actuall Reducement so they are now in sundry places where the work is not so much as attempted the sluggards feild is capable of being weeded the present pretended want of capacity from the non-assistance of the magistrate whilest perfect liberty for Reformation is given and the worke in its severall degrees incouraged will be found to be a sad plea for some when things come to be tryed out by the rule of the Gospell And for our divisions I confesse I begin to discover somewhat more by whom they are fomented then I did four daies agoe for the matter it selfe I desire our Reverend Author to take notice that I judg every church capable of a reduction to its primitive institution which all outward hinderances being removed and all assistances granted that are necessary for reformation according to the Gospell may be reduced into the forme and order appointed unto a particular church by Jesus Christ and where any society is not so capable let them call themselves what they please I shall advise those therein who have personally a due right to the priviledges purchased for them by Jesus Christ in the way of their administration by him appointed to take some other peaceable course to make themselves partakers of them and forgiving this advise I neither dread the anger nor Indignation of any man living in the world And so I suppose by this time the Author knowes what is become of his quod erat demonstrandum and here in room of it I desire him to accept of this return Those who in the judgment of charity were and continue members of the church catholick invisible by vertue of their union with Christ the head thereof and members of the generall visible church by their due profession of the savings truths of the gospell and subjection to Christ Jesus their King and Saviour according to them do walke in love and concord in the particular churches whereof by their own consent and choice they are members not judging and condemning other particular churches of Christ where they are not members as they are such as to their stationand priviledges being ready for all instituted communion with thē as revealed are not according to any gospell rule nor by any principles acknowledged amongst Christians to be judged or condemned as guilty of Schisme but such are all they for whom under any consideration what ever I have pleaded as to their immunity from this charge in my treatise of Schisme therefore they are not to be judged so guilty If you please you may adde Quod er at demonstratum I shall not digresse to a recharge upon this Reverend Author and those of the same profession with him as to their mistakes and miscarriages in the work of Reformation nor discusse their waies and principles wherein I am not satisfied as to their proceduce I yet hope for better things then to be necessitated to carry on the defensative of the way wherein I walk by opposing theirs It is true that he who stands upon meer defence is thought to stand upon none at all but I wait for better things from men then their hearts will yet allow them to think of I hope the Reverend Author thinks that as I have reasons wherewith I am satisfied as to my own way so I have those that are of the same weight with me against him But what ever he may surmise I have no mind to foment the divisions that are amongst us hence I willingly bear all his imputations without retortion I know in part how the case is in the world The greatest chargers have not alwaies the most of truth witnesse Papists Lutherans Prelutists Anabaptists I hope I can say in sincerity I am for peace though others make themselves ready for war But we must proceed a litle further though as to the cause by me undertaken to be managed causelessely The discourse of our Author from the place fixed on wherein he faintly indeavoured to make good the foundation of this chapter which I have allready considered consists of two parts 1. His Animadversions on some principles which I lay down as necessary to be stated aright and determined that the question about gathering churches may be clearly and satisfactorily debated Some of them he saies have been handled by others which if it be a rule of silence to him and me it might have prevented this tedious debate what ever his thoughts may be of my pamphlet I do not fear to affirm of his Treatile that I have found nothing in it from the beginning to the ending but what