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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A82522	The defence of sundry positions & scriptures for the Congregational-way justified: or An answer to an epistle written by Mr. Richard Hollingworth, unto S.E. and T.T. wherein he (in many particulars) chargeth them with injurious dealing against God, and against himselfe, in that booke of theirs, called A defence of sundry positions, &c. Containing a vindication from such charges and aspersions so laid upon them. As also a briefe answer to his large (if not unreasonable) demands, to have scripturall, or rationall answ. given to his 112 queries. / By Sam: Eaton teacher Tim: Taylor pastor [brace] of [brace] the church at Duckenfield in Cheshire. Published according to order.	Eaton, Samuel, 1596?-1665.; Taylor, Timothy, 1611 or 12-1681.	1646 (1646)	Wing E120; Thomason E346_4; ESTC R24943	33,505	50

abound more and more with you and with Your loving Brethren Sam. Eaton Tim. Taylor COncerning your questions whereto you require rationall and scripturall answers you have beene so insatiable in the multiplication of them as that you have made your demand irrationall to rationall men If seven or eight questions may well exercise an Assembly of men some weekes perhaps monthes to give scripturall and rationall answers to them how long may one or two be exercised in answering one hundred and twelve questions Yet we shall say somewhat to them and give our sense of them the better to be excused with the Reader though we give not at present a direct scripturall answer to any of them 1. Your questions are reduceable to these heads Some of them are either in whole or in part answered already in our defence as Q. 11. 24. 30 31. 35 36. 38. 41 42 43. 48 49. 52. 56. 73. 77 78. 84 85. 102 103. 2. Some of them are bottomed upon mistakes of things asserted to be held by us which yet we hold not as 19 20 21 22. 39. 44. 50 51. 56 57 58. 61. 80. 3. Some of them do arise and proceed ex non concessis from things taken for granted which yet we cannot grant as 23. 29. 32. 84. 4. Some of them are de non negatis of things which we grant and yeeld as well as you wherein you and we doe agree or else they are de negatis of thi●gs which both you and we do alike deny as 55. 86 87. 91. 96 97 98 99 100. 102 103. 5. Some of them are in the nature of them deep censures full of calumny slander both of our way persons as 1 2 3 4 5 6. 10. 15. 37. 41. 45. 49. 57 78. 83. 88. 104. 10● 6. Some of them savour of a bitter distempered spirit and tend to incense the Magistrate against us as 57. 96. 106 107 108 109 110 111 112. 7. Some of them seeme to be dubious questions proceeding from a troubled spirit that either we have Auditors to heare us preach or any maintenance from any beside them of our owne way as 77. 79. 84. 8. Some of them are entrapping questions and in them there is aliquid latens some thing that appeares not and you watch for advantage as 76. 81. 82. 9. One of them in a superfluous Parenthesis gibes at the language of many godly knowne Christians who yet are able to justifie their expressions viz. 46. 10. One of them is a question concluding with a vaine-glorious chalenge viz. 100. 11. Some of them are such as that many of the Brethren of the Presbyterian judgement doe agree with us in them and we may referre you to them to answer them as 46. 71. 12. One of them is rather a point controverted among your selves then betwixt you and us viz. 90. 13. Some of them are impertinent and come not up to the controversie betwixt us as 16. 17. 18. 44. 54. and same others 14. Some of them are unnecessary questions because the answering of some one would cut off and make voide the necessitie of propounding and answering of the rest of that nature as the answering of the 7. would prevent the propounding of the 8. 10. 13 14. the answreing of the 11. would make the 9. and 12. uselesse So the answering of 63. makes vaine the propounding of 58. 59. 60. 61. 62. 64. 65. 66. 68. and so of others 15. The most of them are argumentative and do dispute against the thing and sometimes conclude peremptory rather then propound and inquire after the thing of which yet in forme of words there is a question made By all which it arpeares how many of this great multitude of Questions might have beene spared and how little reason we have to answer them Had you not done more commendably if you had propounded some one Question of a kind as namely one about constitution of Churches one about gathering out of many Churches one about the qualification of Members one about an universall visible governing Church one about diversity of Congregations in those City Churches mentioned in Scripture one about the entity and power of an incompleate Church that hath no Officers one about the Covenant and of what Covenant Baptisme is the seale one about the power of the Keyes one about Ordination one about Communion of Officers one about maintenance of Officers one about a private mans exercising his gifts one about withdrawing from communion of ones own Church Ministry and Ordinances one about the externalls of discipline whether they be contained determinately in the New Testament one about the lawfulnesse of tolerating another way then what is by Law established and yet it vvould have been unseasonable to have propounded some of these till the answers vve have given to them already in our Defence have beene rendred invalid and all these would not have amounted to above 15. Questions vvhat then vvould have become of your many scores But your designe vvas under the forme of sundry Questions to assault us vvith sundry Arguments for very many of your Questions yea the most of them are arguments which if we confute and overthrow though your greatest strength be put forth in them yet you come off with honour you asserted nothing positively but propounded only Questions if we confute them not nor answer them clearly we receive as you imagine a blot thereby such cunning there is in the vvay of your proceeding But vve rather choose to put you upon it to state the Question vvith us and then to forme your Argument and vve shall vvillingly ingage our selves then in answering of you this is to set our selves upon equall ground vvith you and you cannot and we hope the Reader vvill not expect fairer proceedings from us Notwithstanding if you like not this vvaite but a vvhile till this present controversie be issued betwixt us and if others in the intrim doe not we shall probably be at leasure to undertake the particular answer of them in the forme they are presented to us FINIS

enterteises which serve for ornament and yet possibly may yeeld some contributions of strength also yet so that if they should be removed the building would remaine firme These amongst the learned are usually types doubtfull parables and darke prophesies which they bring in when they have solidly proved a point by sound argument before Thus it falls out with the Elders of New England who being demanded whether they did allow or thinke fit to allow and settle any certaine stinted maintenance upon the Ministers answer that there is nothing done that way amongst them and their practise they defend by two reasons which must needes inferre the unfitnesse of the contrary course at least to them which may be resolved into these two Arguments 1. Arg●If the Condition of the Ministers and the Churches to which they belong may vary then it is unfit to settle a certaine and stinted maintenance for the Ministery But c. Ergo. 2. Arg t If Christ our Lord hath appointed no such thing as stinted maintenance then it is unfit for the Church to settle stinted maintenance But c. Ergo. Upon these two pillars is the fabrike of their practise borne up yet to adde some probable lustre to what was well proved before they adde the opinion of some Divines concerning Revel 8. 8 9. and they speake doubtfully of the place as not thinking it fit confidently to lay this burden upon it But say they if those writers be not deceived which so expound that scripture as for our parts we know not but they expound it truly c. They say not confidently that the exposition is true but that they know not the contrary and if it be so then it may be truly gathered that the bringing in of setled endowments and eminent preferments into the Church hath beene the corruptions and to some t●● destruction of such as lived by them both Church Officers and members And we have endeavoured to shew the probability of this interpretation but dare not speake definitively of it Yet the Position in the leter of it undertakes no more than what you Brother grant viz. that Revel 8. 8 9. is applyed by some good Authors to those times in which Constantine brought setled endowments into the Church and yet we are still beaten as though what the Elders intended viz. to cast a probable lustre upon what was solidly proved before we had not clearely delivered this text of scripture and by consequence must be guilty of belying God and counterfeiting the King of Kings hand which is the language of the preface and so make us a laughing stock to some and the objects of hatred to other vulgar readers For this cause we must of necessity discover your dealing in this businesse 2. It is said of Amaleck that he met Israel in the way and Deut. 25. ●8 smot the hindermost of them even all that were feeble behind them so you Brother shew a singular dexterity in passing by the two fore-mentioned reasons and fall upon the probable argument drawne from this place the hindermost and most feeble of all the rest 3. Againe what they speake hypothetically and by way of supposition you make use of thetically and by way of position and so that it may well leave the ordinary reader under this apprehension that we have no other argument to build our dislike of stinted Church maintenance upon but this place For your scope is apparently not onely to vindicate the scriptures from abuse but also to confute these positions of the Congregationall way 4. Once more whereas the Elders shew that this place is applyed to those times wherein Constantine brought setled endowments into the Church with ampla praedia large possessions you Brother leave out ampla praedia and mention onely setled maintenance whereas the place may be understood in the latter sense as well as in the former For there were certaine Revenues belonging to the Churches before Euseb lib. 10. 1. 5. Constanstine his time as may appeare out of the imperiall constitution directed to Anilinus wherein he saith We have already decreed the same that the possessions belonging to the Churches aforetime should be restored And againe provide that if either gardens or houses or other possessions whatsoever have belonged to the tytle of their Churches all the same be speedily restored to them againe Lastly Give us leave to tell you that we conceive you are not a little injurious to the Elders of New-England and learned Master Forbes and others whilest you affirme that Constantines donation as you seeme to understand it is the foundation of this exposition because you would imply that they beleeve such a donation of Constantine to be a truth which is such an impudent fiction that all wise men no sooner heare it but abhorre it For those which say d. c. fund de El●c Sext. Chro. vol. 2. least affirme that Constantine gave the City of Rome to Silvester the Pope and his successours and others are not ashamed to avouch that he gave all the Westerne Empire And this donation is mentioned by Gratian in the Decretalls this also is censured by Nauclerus to be but Palea because it is manifest that Constantine gave Italy and other Kingdomes of the West to his sonnes by his last will and testament No● not of this Donation but of other maintenance which Constantine bestowed not upon the Bishop of Rome alone but upon other godly Bishops and Ministers throughout his Empire are the Elders of New-England Master Forbes and others to be understood Eightly say you And Position 7 doe you manifestly cleare that 2 Cor 8 5. doth pertinently and powerfully prove that every member at his admission doth promise to give himselfe to the Church to be guided by them when you say the practise of the Churches of Macedonia is by way of allusion made use of and the Argument is a Comparatis For you know allusions and comparisons are not argumentative Answ Why doe you the second time after admonition given by us in our former booke leave out that without which neither can the Churches directing nor the members following direction be lawfull For the Elders of New-England say not that a Church member is to give himselfe up to the Church to be guided by her according to will but according to God But these words according to God you leave out 2. If to answer all your Reasons to the contrary be to defend this Position by vertue of this text we have done it produce if you can any thing which hath the least appearance of an Argument in it which we have not answered 3. We have shewed that the case of the Macedonian Churches 2 Cor. 8. 5. is paralell with the case of a member giving himselfe up to be guided by the Church according to God For as God gave Paul and Timothy to direct the Churches of Macedonia according to God so God hath given particular Churches to direct their severall members according

to God that is to say The Elders by way of office authoritatively and the brethren as God shall give them opportunity to advise and admonish their fellow members Therefore by the same reason that the Churches of Macedonia gave themselves up to Paul and Timothy by the same reason ought Church members to give up themselvs to the Church to be directed by her according to God But you would make men at least if any possibly may looke upon this exception as though Logique Reason and Religion what ever they be are wholy in subserviency to your present designe beleeve whether you have confuted us or no that we have consuted our selves when we say it is Argumentum a comparatis for say you You know that allusions and comparisons are not argumentative For unlesse we must unknow all that we have knowne to gratifie your cause withall we must needes professe that when we were but boyes in the University we were taught that one head or common place from which Arguments were to be drawne was a Comparatis from Comparrisons And we have had no reason to extirminate that doctrine from intermedling with the matters of God Suppose a man should say to Master Hollinworth a Minister You should season others with the salt of knowledge and of the love and seare of God for you are the salt of the earth Math. 5. 13. You should feede your people with wholesome doctrine and discipline for you are a shepheard would Master Hollinworth out with this Logique and say Comparrisons prove nothing and therefore the Arguments are naught Did Paul commit a sol●ris●e in Logique when he proves that Ministers should receive maintenance because the mouth of the Oxe must not be ●●zelled that treadeth out the corne Or is our Saviours argument weake and insufficient when he justifieth his Disciples for plucking the eares of corne by an argument ● Comparatis taken from Davids taking and eating the shew-bread So that till we have something more then your bare assertion to convince us we shall beleeve there is a truth in the old rule of Analogie Quod de uno secundum proporti●nem affirmatur vel negatur id etiam de altero That which is asserted or denyed of one thing according to proportion may be asserted or denyed of another thing And if you can overthrow this old maxime we are confident that the Classique cause will suffer as well as the Congregationall Ninthly say you In stead of cleare manifestation of Ministers mantenance out of the stock of the Church you say we thinke we see most warrant for it from the New Testament and as most probable once disputed it but neither then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are per●●ptory in it c. Answ What shall our modesty be now ●●de use of against us Though it be so yet we shall desire to be mode●t Salust B●l. Jug still It was the Commendation of 〈◊〉 that he did plurimum fac●re ●inim●m de s●l●qui We hope God will never leave us so 〈◊〉 to ou● selves as to professe my doctrine or f●ll upo● a●● practise confidently and per●●●torily as of divine inspiration or institution for which we have not a cleare evidence of scripture That tythes and stinted Church maintenance are unlawfull that Ministers are to be maintained out of the Church stocke the reception and distribution whereof appertaineth to the Deacons office we conceive we have solidly proved out of the word of God But that the Ministers are to be maintained by such a stocke as is raised by a weekely contribution because it is not absolutely cleare in the Text at least to us we thought fit to dispute it onely as probable If you could come as neare unto a demonstration of Classique goverment as this chapter doth to a demonstration of a stocke by weekly contribution of the Church and we had no more to say against it then yet we have heard for we cannot prophesie what you may hereafter produce against a Stocke raised by weekely contributions we should be tender how we mutter'd a word against Classique government 2. Except you can produce some one of the Congregationall way that in writing or disputation hath asserted weekly contributions to be of divine institution and binding to all Churches we shall esteeme the Position and scripture annexed as to such a purpose your owne invention As for us as we defended it in disputation so we have to the same purpose clearely manifested it to be sufficient pertinent and full of power viz. to make it probable that the Ministery should be maintained by a Stock raised by weekly contributions and see no cause to doubt but that we have solidly answered all your arguments to the contrary Lastly Colophonis vice as the close of this charge you conclude when you say we thinke we conceive its probable and doe never so confidently assert any of the severall Positions and do not prove the same by the severall texts respectively alleadged nor cleare the said text from all Objections made against your Exposition one materiall Objection unanswered being enough to invalidate the same you afford so many Arguments to any wise Reader that you have not clearely manifested the Positions and Scriptures where such Speeches are found to be sufficient c. Answ All that we have to say is this First That your triumph concerning our not proving the Positions by the Text respectively alleadged is before your victory Secondly Though one materiall Objection unanswered unanswerable you should say for our weakenesse may not peradventure be able to defend a truth doth invalidate our Exposition yet where we urge divers Texts to any Position if any one of them be truly urged and so unanswerable though you should invalidate all the rest as to such a purpose you may advantage the truth thereby but advantage not your cause at all So that one materiall Objection such as we have not yet met with in your writings though it might invalidate the Exposition yet possibly might not prejudice the Position at all The third Charge which you lay upon us that our pretending to prove some Positions and practises by other Scriptures and Arguments as to your intent expressed in the preface is but a By-matter For Positions and practises may be true and lawfull and yet not truly and lawfully grounded on the Text alleadged c. Answ When the King had burnt Jeremiahs Rowle and Jerem. 3● 32. and he caused Baruch to write the Rowle a new it is said he added besides to them many like words If we had neglected to answer your Examination of the scriptures alleadged by us and had fallen upon new scriptures you might well have complained but we thought good measure pressed downe shaken together and running over would not have offended you And yet the truth is we know not how to please you the one way or the other In some sections though to our understanding we have not left any thing in the similitude of an Argument unanswered

we curtall and clip your answers fold them up in obscure c. Omit that which we know to be more pertinent while we transcribe and largely answer some thing lesse pertinent pag. 13. To beginne with the first How doe you acquit your selfe from provoking us to be your Antagonists in print Did the Booke breake forth into the world against your consent Your selfe imply the contrary when you say others rather then your selfe thought fit the examination c. should be printed And what charge soever you gave concerning the prefixing of your name yet we could not be ignorant what by R H M A of Maygd Col. Cambr. meant Yet it was not your name which we love as we doe your person that could provoke us but the matter in the Booke which as it tended to the subversion of that Government which is in our apprehensions sutable to the golden rule of the word of God and the setting up of another governmēt which in the things in controversie we can see no other ground for save humane policy and prudence so called measured by the line of naturall reason so it reflected upon us in some particulars which falling from us in conference or writing you took up and committed your answer unto them to be made publique And for that cause when we saw no other of better abilities take up the businesse we thought we were bound to make our defence as publique But as Joseph in another case said to his Brethren Gen. 45. 5. Be not grieved that ye sold mee c so whether you provoked or whether we without cause were provoked yet if God as we hope he will make this a meanes to bolt out some truth of his so farre forth we shall rejoyce in it Your second charge is that there is a difference betwixt our Title page and the Text pag 7 8. for say you The Title speakes indefinitely that the Positions and Scriptures alledged not some or many of them by me examined are sufficient pertinent and full of power and are manifested yea clearely manifested so to be But in your text you disclaime the places applyed to Position 23 as it is by me controverted and are confident they are not found in the workes of any Congregationall man c. Answ 1. The title page was not that we sent up but was prefixed to our defence by a Friend to whose care we committed it to see to the printing of it our selves living at such distance And if lesse had beene given out in the Title it would not have derogated from the validity of the worke and would have liked us better Notwithstanding we doubt not but to maintaine the concordance betwixt the Text and it though not perhaps in every Punctilio Yet it must be understood that so farre as the Positions and scriptures are ours and truly and justly alledged by you as ours so farre we maintaine the sufficiency and pertinency of them And also so farre as Congregationall men have intended to make use of them in reference to their true and proper scope in alledging them they are full of power for they have produced and mentioned severall of them as probable and there is strength of probability though not of certainty even in those texts in which the infallibility of them is not asserted 2. The title that we sent up prefixed to our Booke you may behold it in the first page of our defence without variation and we suppose you will judge it modest enough 3. And whatsoever may be said for the rest yet sure we are in the instance you give there is no difference betwixt them For the Title page ingageth to a defence of sundry Positions and scriptures alledged to justifie the Congregationall way But Position 23 as it is by you controverted is a doctrine devised by your selfe and the scriptures fixed by your selfe to render us odious to all other Churches and all other Saints As for us we hate and detest the thought of confining the Priestly Propheticall and Kingly Offices of Christ to Churches meerely Congregationall Neither were these scriptures ever alledged by us or any of our judgement to our knowledge to any such purpose therefore without clashing with our Title page we might and ought to explode them 4. Forasmuch as your Title page runnes thus The examination of sundry scriptures alleadged by our Brethren in defence of some particulars of their way Either make it out that some Brethren of the Congregationall way have made use of these scriptures to this purpose or else there will be found not onely an imaginary but a reall clashing betwixt your title page and your text and you also will be found guilty the second time of a grievous reproach not onely against the Brethren but against the way it selfe For the second place viz. Position the 15 wherein say you After the allegation of some Authorities instead of answering a Text upon which the distinction of Pastors and Teachers is grounded You the one a Teacher and the other a Pastor conclude if we doe put a false glosse upon the scripture by misinterpreting of Eph. 4. 11. yet more modest language let any man finde immodesty in that examination if he can had become you Brother seeing such reverend and learned men whom your selfe honour have gone before us in this exposition Answ If we had only urged their authorities you might have charged us with not making out in this place what we pretend in our title Page but we urge and improve the reasons and so make them our owne reasons for the confutation of your answer First after we have shewed that whether you translate the prepositive article 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 some or these you gaine nothing by it we endeavour to prove that the Doctors are not Schoole-Doctors but Church Doctors from Rom. 12. 7 8. 1 Cor. 12. 8. and then proceed to prove that these Church Doctors are distinct from Church Pastors not onely by the authority of Zanchy but by the reasons rendred by Pareus and Bucer and specified by us viz. That God gives distinct gifts to Pastors from those that he gives to Teachers For to the one is given a speciall faculty of exhortation to the other a clearer understanding of doctrine and consequently they are distinct offices And yet you would make all men beleeve that in our Reply we defend not the Text at all Concerning our conclusion in which immodest language is charged upon you and your defence of your selfe Let any man finde immodesty in that examination if he can we say we conceive not our selves injurious in it at all For the immodest language though it be not in the examination of this Position yet we finde it in the first words of the preface which is applicable in your proper scope to all the positions and so consequently to this Position viz. True Positions and lawfull practises must not much lesse untrue and unlawfull be fathered upon God by misinterpretation of

his word c. In which words you doe insinuate the Positions which you examine and practises built upon them to be untrue and unlawfull and to be fathered on God by misinterpretation of Gods word And therein you doe not asperse us onely but lay an immodest charge upon Bucer Zanchy Pareus who concurre with us in our Position and interpretation of Eph. 4. Thirdly say you Doe you clearly manifest that the text Mat. 18. whatsoever other texts doe doth prove that the Church must be Congregationall Answ We clearely manifest what in conference we have endeavoured to prove out of these words and the Position as you have laid it downe and doe controvert it we shall beleeve to be your owne Fiction till you produce your Author We hold that the exercise of Church Power by the Congregationall Church is founded upon this text as the observation of the Christian Sabboth is upon the fourth Commandmēt We have clearely proved that Christ in this place sends the offended Brother to the Church endowed with power at that time when the offence should be committed and therfore sends the Brethren of the Jewish Church to the Jewish Church whilst that Church remained in power and sends the brethren of Christian Churches in the times of the Gospell to Congregationall Churches as they stand in opposition to Classicall Provinciall Nationall and Oecumenicall Churches And how slight soever you make of this our Reply except by scripturall reasons you force us to quit this ground you lose your Presbyterian cause Fourthly say you Position the 20. Have you clearely manifested that the Keys were given to Peter to be used by him For you could not but know that to be the meaning as a Disciple Beleever not an Officer Answ We have clearely proved the contrary And yet you without the least refutation of the proofe made by us sticke to the conclusion that we cannot but know the meaning to be that the Keys were given to Peter to be used by him as a Disciple or a Beleever not as an Officer A doctrine which we professe against as in our Reply we manifest as neither consonant to the mind of the holy Ghost as we conceive nor the Elders of New England whom you alledge as we proved it out of the sense of their owne words Doe we but sing to a deafe man in what we say to you We leave it to the ingenuous Reader to judge betwixt us Fifthly say you Have you clearely manifested that Col. 4. 17. proves the Churches power to censure her Officers when the strongest argument you bring to prove Archippus his faultinesse without which it was no censure amounts but to a strong presumption and that you know is but a weake proofe Answ A man would imagine that you Brother never built any conclusions as mortally probable upon premisses that might beget strong presumptions but that all your arguments were demonstrationes potissimae and concluded with an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 because you finde fault with our strong presumptions built upon two good reasons and ushered in by the authority of Zanchy as one of those many Classick Authors that assert the same thing with us in this particular Yet your selfe upon this place argue thus Paul say Examination in pag. 15 1● you bids Timothy fulfill his ministery 2 Tim. 4 5. yet this doth not suppose Timothy to be faulty c. And then you adde And it may be Archippus was not faulty and then this Admonition was no censure and thence you inferre therefore its alleadg●d to no purpose It had beene more tollerable if you had said therefore it may be it is alledged to ●o purpose Is it a fault in us to build a strong presumption upon two reasons yet uncontrowled Is it no fault in you Sir to build a peremptory conclusion upon that which amounts to no more then an it may be which is not so much as a remote probability much lesse a strong presumption Since our worke and businesse was to defend the scriptures alleadged against your examinations we have fulfilled what our Title page undertakes if we prove that a Church hath a priviledge to admonish her Officers by virtue of this text any thing in your examinations notwithstanding Now the two reasons by us alleadged make it absolutely cleare that Archippus was faulty by virtue of Col. 4. 17. and that tho Churches power in censuring her Officers may be and is founded hereupon i. e. For ought you alleadge to the contrary in that place and containe in them grounds of a strong presumption that the thing is so indeede Sixtly Have you say you clearely manifested from Adams Family that 7 8 or 9 make a Church c. Answ Is not our worke to defend the Position against your arguments Is there any thing that hath the least appearance of an argument produced by you in this section which we have not fully answered If there be produce it We thought it superfluous and impertinent to prove that which your selfe clearely grant when you say the case of Adam and Noah was extraordinary there were no more in the world and therefore could be no more in the Church Doe you not grant a Church at that time consisting of 7 8 or 9 Of this we make use and argue in effect thus How few ever made a Church since the beginning of the world the same may make a Church at this day But 7 8 or 9 say you made a Church in Adams time and Noahs time Therefore 7 8 or 9 may make a Church at this day Yet we would not have the Church to consist of no more but judge a numerous addition of members a great mercy As for our concession that God hath not precisely determined what number doth make a Church which you make use of to darken the clearenesse of our manifestation we say It is a confirmation of our argument which we bring viz. That looke how few have made a Church so few may make a Church still because God hath not determined what number a Church must consist of And it is brought to cleare the Position that 7 8 or 9 may now make a Church because so many have made a Church in Adams and Noahs dayes And till you have overthrowne the strength of the Argument which is contained in these words because God hath not determined what number must make a Church you deale not candidly to suggest that out owne acknowledgement in those words is against that cleare manifestation of that Position which we in the Title page speake of Seventhly Methinks you have not cleared say you that Revel 8. 8 9. is sufficient and full of power against setled Endowments Answ Sir It falls out with the best writers as it doth with the best builders they have not onely in the making of their walles certaine peeces of timber which beare up the weight of the stories and roofe which if they were removed the whole building would fall but also certaine carved

there i● no difference in that betwixt us and the primitive Apostolicke gentile Churches 2. The civill custome of those Countries differ much from ours hence we are not bound to make the covering of a mans head a token of dishonour 1 Cor. 11. 4 5. 7. 10. Answer What ever it be that the Apostle meaneth by covering of the head for that is disputable it seemeth to us to be perpetuall and binding to all Churches as well as to that of Corinth because of the Apostles reasons in 1 Cor. 11. 7. 14. He saith ver 7. The man ought not to cover the head because he is the Image and glory of God but the woman must because she is the glory of the man And ver 14. he saith Nature it selfe teacheth that if a man have long haire it is a shame to him because haire is not given to him for a covering For so it is to be understood to make the Antithesis perfect But if a woman have long haire it is an honour to her because her h●ire is given her for a covering We think the reason is fetcht from the excellency of the one sexe above the other and that reason which is drawne from nature are perpetuall And if ever in force remaine still in force 3. The Church was then but in gathering from amongst Heathens and Jewes bence we want examples to convince refractory Anabaptists of the baptizing of Christian Infants c. Answ Such an argument as this you use to defend your selves in pleading for an Nationall Church Scripture say you mentioneth not a Nationall Church for beleevers were not so many then as to beare the name of a Kingdome or Nation As we conceived it weake against us so may the Anabaptists judge it unsatisfactory against them For can any one rationally thinke but that among those many thousands converted of Jewes and Heathens and gathered into Christian Churches there were not many who had Infant Children some of them borne before they were converted who upon such conversion of their parents were to be accounted Christian Infants and others borne after such conversion in that period of time which the history of the Acts of the Apostles fills up which Infants must also be stiled Christian Infants And if so then the reason of wanting examples of baptizing Christian Infants is not that which you alledge viz. because the Church was then but in gathering from amongst the Heathens and Jewes But because it seemed good to the Holy Ghost for what cause we dare not determine to forbeare the expresse mentioning of Infants baptisme 4. The Church was then under heathenish persecuting Magistrates hence they had no houses built for or appropriated to holy worship Answ In your Examinations pag. 6. you cite 1. Cor. 11. 22. and say To come together 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is if rightly translated to come together in one place and ●o Ecclesia is opposed to the buildings or houses in which they did eate and drinke in Here you say That the primitive Churches had not houses c. Doe you not manifestly contradict your selfe for if they were not houses in which they did eate and drinke in but did meete together in for holy worship were they not so farre forth set a part for holy worship If by appropriation of houses to holy worship which you say was not then in the primitive times but ought to be now you meane such a setting a part as must necessarily exclude all using of such houses to other purposes it is superstition so to conceive or speake But if you grant that ●se may be made of them otherwise then in Gods worship How are they then appropriated to Gods worship more now then in the times of primitive Churches For they were then knowne noted places at least among some Churches and capacious of great multitudes in which the Churches did ordinarily meete as from 1 Cor. 14. 23. appeares They meete in the night to pray preach and celebrate the Supper Ans And did they not meet in the day also How else did 1 Cor. 14. 23 the unbeleevers meet with them come among them Ministers had no setled maintenance Answ It is a non sequitur that because the Church was under Heathenish and persecuting Magistrates therefore Ministers had no setled maintenance Is there any rule for setled maintenance in the whole Gospell which yet being that there are predictions many of peaceable and prosperous times to the Church there might have beene if God had meant any such thing Nay there are intimations if not cleare declarations against setled maintenance to arise from the Churches There was then an extraordinary effussion of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles Evangelists and sundry of the Elders and people hence there was no neede of Universities c. Answ Yes there was neede because you speake but of sundry and the Apostle desired that they all might speake with tongues but rather that they might prophesie 1 Cor. 14. 5. therefore there might be use of schooles in reference to them that wanted extraordinary gifts Nor of studying for Sermons Answ Yes Else what meaneth the Apostle when he bids Timothy stirre up the gift c. and give attendance to reading c. No using set Prayers and Psalmes Answ Were there no set Psalmes in those dayes were those Psalmes Hymmes and spirituall songs which the Church at Ephesus and at Colosse and all the Churches did sing inspired by the spirit And were no scripture Psalmes sung in those times That will be a strengthening to them that doubt of the singing of Davids Psalmes As for prayers is there a necessity now of a Forme because extraordinary gifts are ceased May not an ordinary gift be sufficiently helpfull to put up prayers by We would thinke it should now be unseasonable to plead for set formes of prayer 6. The Apostles had the care of all the Churches and without difference taught and baptized and ordered matters in all Churches where they came now we may not expect such Officers but must be content with ordinary Elders amongst whom so much of their power as God intended to be perpetuall ●s divided Answ But if there be an universall visible governing Church which you plead for the Elders of it must have care of all the Churches and must Preach Baptize and rule where ever they come And the representative oecumenicall Church or Counsell consists of such Elders that every of them must have care of all the Churches Where then is the difference according to your principles betwixt the Apostles and such Elders in that matter And whether the Brethren do not share in some of their power you know is under controversie 7. There were then some extraordinary occasionall precepts and practises which binde not in ordinary as selling all to give to the poore Mat. 19. 21. having all things common Act. 2. 44 45. 4. 32. 3● 35. Answ Selling all and giving to the poore was never a precept nor