idle some erroneous if not hereticall in their judgments And attained with their Lordships Hierarchicall superstitions I could name others of inferior ranke of great note for learning pietie and soundness of judgement even in points controversall who upon conformitie after long standing out accepted great livings and presently became the very Atlas's of popish Ceremonies Vpon all which I conclude that these pretended reformers having heretofore tasted of the Devils broth in their conformitie and subscription and having not yet repented of it will shortly fall to eat the flesh and swallow up any thing which makes not against their honor or profit Pr. You cast very foule aspersions upon our reverend Clergie and have drawn mee into a discourse which I never intended I intimated to you before that it 's the peoples fault that they do not joyne with their Ministers to settle the Church and reforme the abuses in the same It 's an easier matter to finde a fault then to amend it for my part I think the perversness and peevishness of the people is the cause which hindreth Reformation for that they will abide no government but every one will be of his own Religion without controul Ph. I cannot excuse all the people nor think I all faultie who are afraid of having their Religion measured out unto them by the Presbyterie especially by the rigid sort who account all error and heresie which suites not with their conceptions and all men schismaticks and Sectaries whose consciences are not just of their size and yet I am perswaded that reformation goeth not forward is chiefly the fault of the pretended Clergie Pr. How can that be or how doth it appear Pr. Because most of the pretended Ministers must be casheired before there can be any reformation for either the Ministers are dumb blinde guides or els so prophane irreligious or superstitious that if they be reformers their Elders in all probabilities will be of the same stamp to joyne with them And then I leave it to you to judge what reformation here 's like to be when Satan must cast out Satan Pr. This is the condition but of few places many being better furnished both with Ministers and people Ph. The most of the best sort of Ministers stand so much upon their own interests and besides are in so great slaverie to their Patrons that we see they straine their wits to advance their own honor and profit and to please men least either their Livings should suffer any diminution or some one finde a hole in their coat some Symonie lapse or other flaw in their Title whereby to put them out of their Living which before they will loose the most will adventure their souls And upon these grounds it is that every one living within the compasse of their Parish or their perambulation walk must be acknowledged one of their flock and comming to Church he is without doubt a member of the visible Church how ignorant or wicked soever or els how can they demand any Tythes or offerings from them And for the same reason the Ministers labor to preserve their Parishes intire and not to leave out any part thereof least they loose the Tythe and benefit which comes by it And hence is it that they maintain every Parish to be a visible Church although there be neither lawfull Minister nor any Congregation of faithfull people there who have given any testimonie that they are members of Christ or of the houshold of faith Pr. These things may easily be amended and I presume when the Church is setled and the Presbyterian government with the Classes and Synods confirmed these things which are amiss may be altered or changed they are but pettie blemishes and the Ministers will therein satisfie the weak and such as are offended But it s well you have no greater matters to charge them with Ph. I could acquaint you with other abhominable things maintained by your Ministers on purpose to satisfie their lusts of pride and covetousness to which all other things are but drudges besides what I formerly told you off which although you account them pettie matters yet are they repugnant to the essence of a Church of Christ And I see none goeth about to amend them they have Elders and Officers chosen as if they intended reformation but the Ministers and their confederates the Elders do but provoke the Lord grieve his holy Spirit and mock and abuse the people of God Where is anie of your great Presbyters that ever confessed that his Parish was too great and the people too manie although they were twentie thousand and his Living worth 500 l. per annum or that anie of the people were so wicked that hee would spare them out of his Church or defired to have his Parish divided that hee might make way for others more able to worthie then himself Least also hee should part with some of his Tythes and so diminish his revenue and greatness which is against his honour and profit Pr. I have already given you satisfaction to that you now said and tell you again wee must not expect to have a reformation at once it s a matter requires time and autoritie to compell obedience to the Orders of the Church and then you shall see the Presbyterie act vigorously and reformation will undoubtedly go on apace But I pray you what are those other things to which you take exception as things abominable and yet maintained by the Clergie Ph. They defend and maintain their Popish callings from the Prelates their old conformitie and subscription which ingaged them to bee the Prelates and so the Popes Vassals the Patrons right to present to the Churches the Popish and Apocryphal names of Priests Parsons Vicars and Curates the Book of Common Prayer and Homilies and use of popish Ceremonies maintenance by Popish and superstitious offerings double benefices leaving one living when they can get a greater thrusting themselvs upon people without their suffrage consent maintaining Popish Vestries beeing a mear mockerie of Christs Ordinance as if they intended to separate the precious from the vile when they do nothing less All which things with others might easily bee shewed to bee abominable and not to bee suffered in the Churches of Christ Besides these they plead stifly that marrying burying and funerall Orations belong to the Ministerial function and allow of all children to bee baptized although the Children of Turks and Infidels but especially those of their Parish if they bee offered to them how wicked soever their parents are And in like manner they admit all to the Lords Supper how unfit soever if they come but to Church These and others such like have I heard pleaded for with great confidence whilest they have blamed others who take upon them to preach not having such callings as they howsoever gifted and yet for advantage they will bear with anie novice or ignorant fellow having been two or three years or it may be less at the Universitie
A CONFERENCE BETWEEN A PRESBYTERIAN MINISTER And A LAWYER Concerning all the Material Points that are in difference between the PRESBYTERIAN and the INDEPENDENT and in what particulars Presbyterie is an hinderance to REFORMATION One great hinderance is The mainteining of Great Parishes LONDON Printed for T. M. and are to bee sold by Giles Calvert at the Black-spred Eagle at the West-end of St PAUL'S An. Dom. 1651. TO THE READER Courteous Reader THou hast here in a plain and familiar Dialogue discovered the carnall ends and poor shifts of the temporizing pretended Clergy of this Nation whose pretence is Reformation but their maine designe indeed the preservation of their Parishes and thereby the advancing of their honour and profit The most part of the Presbyter's Answers are collected out of certaine Sermons or rather polititicall Lectures and conferences which I have heard with mine own ears and the rest is made good out of their practices It is not to be conceived that all the Ministers of all the Parish-Congregations in England and Wales are guilty of all the superstitious and Popish practices and other crimes and offences herein mentioned for I doe aknowledge many to be pious and conscientious men who have not submitted to the Bishops yoake nor received the marke of the Beast But the generality of the Ministery being led by some few in every County whose Oracles are at Sion-Colledge are so setled on the lees of their old Conformities and subscriptions and in the courses which they learned from their Predecessors that they will not easily be removed Nor have I much hope that any of the Ring-leaders of this Faction will hereby bee brought to acknowledge their errour much lesse to lay aside their gainfull callings which make them Lords over their whole Parishes but rather expect that some galled proud Parsons Vicars or Curates or other inferiour Priests or Deacons as they cal ed them will raile against me as one not fit to bee answered and least others should hear or understand will fill the Aire and Ears of all the multitude with sensless noise and outcries in vindication of their great Diana Yet I doubt not but the wise in heart will understand and som of the most ingenuous amongst the Formalists will at the least take a view of their present condition and be put upon som serious consideration of their by-past courses and remember that without Repentance those that receiv the mark of the Beast shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God and bee tormented with Fire and Brimstone Apoc. 14.9.10.11 But that I chiefly intend is to lay open to the plain and weaker sort of Christians the subtilties falshoods and vain delusions of our pretending Church-reformers upon consideration of all which almost the weakest judgments may see sufficient to satisfie them that wee can never expect any Through Reformation whilest the Parliament consults these men who are so many wayes engaged against Reformation by their own Interests of Honour and Profit the two main Hinges of all their Designs I conceiv many will be ready to say I trouble my self too much to rake into the Dung-hill of Popish and superstitious Ceremonies beeing dead and buried but therein I desire to bee excused beeing enforced thereunto by such as I heard defend them in the Pulpit and in private since they were Damned by Ordinance of Parliament The defence of which and of others their Popish Trinkets is brought in to take away the scandal of their Popish callings from the Bishops and to justifie their former conformities least their Parishioners offended should seek out other Pastors or as they call it Run to separation or Independencie I have one thing to adde by way of request to the Reader which is this that where hee findeth any Satyrical jests or sarkasme's savoring of too much levity or bitterness hee would consider whether the matter occasioning the same from the Presbyter bee not more ridiculous and yet it 's such as I have heard divulged by one or more of the most learned of that faction in the Countrey where I live which may in some sort excuse my expressions What I have herein set forth repugnant to the Truth upon conviction I shall I hope gladly retract So wishing this little Treatise may bee profitable to some and hurtful to none Reader I bid thee farewel Abraham Boune The AUTHOR'S Protestation I Do hereby declare and protest in the presence of Almightie God that I do not put forth this Tract with any intent to vilifie or bring into contempt the preaching of the blessed Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ after the manner of such who say they live above all Ordinances for I acknowledg the preaching of the Gospel to bee the ordinary means of salvation and that withont preaching ordinarily none can bee saved Rom. 10. But I desire to discover those builders who refuse or set at nought the Lord Christ and his Ordinances to uphold their own honour and profit A. B. The Pride and Avarice OF THE CLERGIE viz. Parsons Vicars and Curats hindering REFORMATION Discovered in a plain and familiar Dialogue between Philalethes and Presbyter SIR you are well met here at London I am glad to see you what is the reason you look so sad Pr. Sir I thank you I am in health but perplexed in minde Ph. What is the news in your Countrie from whence you com or what is it that trouble's you Pr. There is no news but new distractions both in Church and Common-wealth arising by reason of old Errors and Heresies countenanced everie where Ph. What Errors and Heresies do you mean Pr. They are so manie I cannot easily count all that the Sectaries and Schifmaticks of this age have broached Ph. Do you conceive that these are the occasion of the distempers in the Common-wealth as well as in the Churches Pr. Yea without all doubt for the unsetledness of the Church occasioned by Sectaries causseth the distemper of the Common-wealth both sympathizing in each others miserie Ph. What do you think might cure these distempers Pr. There is no other way of cure but by setling Church-Government with the Classes and Synods Ph. How will that cure all things Pr. 1. Hereby Errors and Heresies will bee discountenanced and the Sectaries the broachers of them restreined and punished 2. None will bee admitted to the Ministrie but such as were brought up at the Vniversitie or licenced by the Assemblie 3. Private men will bee inforced to continue in their callings and not meddle with the Ministers Office in expounding the Scriptures 4. Everie man will bee forced to pay his Tythe and dues to his Ministers that thereby they may bee honorably maintain'd 5. Lastly everie one will bee ordered to keep their own Parish and not follow Sectaries and seducing teachers If these and such like were looked to and observed the Church and Common-wealth would soon bee quiet and the want of these things is the occasion of all the miseries which wee
and put him up into the Pulpit not doubting of his calling to the Ministry And all these in order to the service of these mens pride and covetousness Pr. I perceive you finde fault almost with every thing although never so ancient and inoffensive What can you say against Mariage why it should not be accounted to belong to the Ministry having been so long used in the Church Ph. I answer that Marriage is a civill action and belongs to the Magistrate to see it orderly done and so was used under the Law and is so used at New-England and in other reformed Churches at this day Ruth 4.9 Lechfield newes c. pag. 39. It s true that in corruption of time when Antichrist prevailed above the civill power it was brought into the Church that the Priest might have an oare in every boat and no man marry but whom they permitted And by this meanes it was looked to that the Priests might not marry and those persons who did marry must have the Parish Priests Certificate or Licence least any grist should go by their mill Pr. This may be true and yet the thing not unlawfull for the Minister in the face of the Congregation to joyne the marryed couple and to give them some good exhortation fit for such a Solemnitie Ph. Why may not as much be done by a godly Magistrate being a civill action and common to all Nations But that is not all after the Marriage was annexed to the Ministeriall function the Church of Rome soone made it a Sacrament and the Ring must needs be added as the outward signe of love the invisible grace that as the Ring is endlesse the marryed couples love should be endlesse A worthie Sacrament and without doubt fit to be retained in the Church for the benefit of the Clergie both in respect of honor and profit the two maine things of all their designes Pr. But I pray you why may not burying the dead be a fit action for the Minister and a funerall Sermon requisite for them which are living Ph. For burying the dead It s also a civill work of Charitie for Christians to accompanie the corp's of their dead friends to the grave and to lay them there without more adoe and the dead also may burie their dead And what the Minister hath there to do more then another man I know not Pr. It s fit he should give some exhortation to the people and if he preach a Funerall Sermon it s done for the edification of the living and not for the dead and preaching is good in season and out of season Ph. I confess the word ought to be preached in season and out of season but some times and places are so unseasonable as no christian prudence will admit it convenient to preach as the times now are for a man to preach in Westminster-hall when Judges are sitting though Paul preached upon Mars-hill the Judges Court at Athens or to preach a Sermon in a common hall when a companie are at dinner where no man regards these times and places are too unseasonable there being convenient times and places for such religious actions And for your exhortation or funeral Sermon they are more inconvenient and unseasonable then at anie other time and place being more abused and the very original being naught 1. First we read of no such thing in the Scripture onely we finde godly men used to accompanie others to the grave and sometimes made lamentation for them 2. Secondly these funeral Sermons or rather Orations were first used by the Heathen and then taken up by the Church of Rome who used at these Solemnities to praise the dead 3. Thirdly thence the Church of Rome came to pray for the dead and to this day defend it stifly And therefore as a learned man once said in a Sermon in my hearing we have left praying for the dead for the evill of it we may as well leave off praysing the dead by reason of the abuse of it 4. Fourthly now besides this the corruption of the times are such that the gift for the funerall Sermons so blindeth the eyes of the Ministers that generally they alwaies finde out one thing or other to commend the dead for although most prodigiously wicked as what man in his sickness or at some other time will not do or say some good for which the Minister presently in conceipt placeth the dead partie in Paradise to the woful hardning of the wicked many of their auditors in a course of sin when they hear as bad as themselves absolved by the Minister as a Saint departed and a faithfull brother according to the blinde charitie of our Service-Book And were it not that some profit comes to the Clergie by these funeral Orations they would as easily be laid aside as their prayer and exhortation at the grave for which they had nothing given unto them Pr. You seemed before to take exception to the Baptisme of Infants and truly you reason like an Independent who are for the most part Anabaptists Ph. I do not disallow of the Baptism of some Infants whom I conceive to have right to Baptisme but I do not allow of the Baptisme of all children indifferently nor of all such children whose Parents profess Christianitie Pr. The ancient Fathers testifie the Baptisme of Infants in the Church to be an Apostolicall Institution and to have been used from the Apostles times when whole housholds were baptized and no exception of children And there are many reasons and unanswerable arguments grounded upon Scripture both in the old and New Testament to warrant it And the verie Text it self is clear Acts 2.39 The promise is made to you and to your children c. And if the promise be made to them children they then have right to the signe or seal of the promise Ph. Touching what you alledg from the Fathers I confess I have not all those books in my custodie which I finde cited for this purpose but I have searched divers of them and if you please to examine them they make nothing for you All agree in this that Infants were baptized in the Primitive Church and Augustine affirmes it to be an Apostolicall Tradition August contr Donat. l. 4. ca. 23.24 Lib. 10. de gen ad liter ca. 23. Ciril in levi l. 4. But this doth not prove that the children of Heathens nor of all such who professed christianitie were baptized how wicked and lewd soever their parents were or whither of the Church or excommunicate And such as hold all ought to be baptized hold that children dying without Baptisme cannot be saved Cipri Epi ad fidum 137. And for your Arguments from Scripture you can thence conclude nothing But that the Infants of believers have been and may be baptized And if you observe where you finde whole Families baptized as the Jailor Acts 16.14.15.33 34. and Lydia's the Parents at least one of them were believers And touching that place in the
Acts which onely seemes so plain to you If I should admit the promise there mentioned to be that which you meane which may verie well be questioned it makes nothing to prove that for which its intended by the men of your opinion who will have all the children in their Parish if their parents come to Church to be baptized The next words clear it from such construction and give you a full answer The promise is made to you and to your children and to such as are a far off but the Apostle further addes even as manie as the Lord our God shall call so that by your construction this must be concluded Converts have right to the promise and so have their children c. You conceive the State hath done well in debarring the wicked and abominable from the Lords Table and if the Parents be separated or excommunicate so I account them who are debarred from that Sacrament how can their children have right to the other as being born of believing Parents Pr. We conceive we have sufficient warrant to baptize all Infants that are brought to us being offered in the Church to be baptized For although their immediate Parents were neither of them Beleivers yet some of their ancestors might be and we are bound in charitie to believe they were Believers for God sheweth mercy to thousands of generations of them that love him Ph. You are without doubt singular in your opinion and upon this ground all the children of Turks are to be baptized if offered in the Congregations because they proceed from Abraham by Hagar and all the Jews because they proceed from Sem yea and all the Gentiles because they proceed from Japheth and all the world because they proceed from Adam I never heard asserted untill of late nor do I think any Orthodox Divine will maintain it I confess I once heard something to that purpose from a Minister whom you know very confidently affirmed But afterwards he having to deal with the Anabaptists forsook that hold and stood onely upon that point to prove that some Infants had right to or might be baptized which he then and at other times proved by Doctor Featleys arguments against the Anabaptists Pr. How ever it may be with the children of Turks and other Infidels yet there is no doubt but the children of such as are members of the Church by outward profession although we see not the signes of grace and election in them have right to Baptism Ph. I account godless impenitent persons living in the bosome of the Church as Infidels and Heathens and the Apostles rule is so and in the language of the Scripture they are dogs and swine to whom holy things are not to be given nor the childrens bread to be cast to them Matth. 7.6 And their children where neither Parent can be judged a believer which no notorious wicked man or woman can be are pronounced unclean 1 Corinth 7.14 How ever God may shew mercie the Church ought to judge according to outward appearance and not to admit the wicked Parents to the one Sacrament nor their children to the other without reformation in the Parents or one of them But I pray you why was not the child baptized which was brought from another Parish to your Congregation to be baptized I understand the Minister refused to baptize it Pr. It s true but it was not refused upon your ground the Minister consulted with the heads of the Parish and upon debate of the matter they concluded it was not fit it should be baptized there least it might be chargeable to the Parish Ph. I am sorrie to hear this carnal resolution from such a Minister and so long taught a people It seems some Ministers and people dare transgress the Law of God if it be for advantage As the Pharisees taught upon pretence of their Corban the Box But how doth this agree with that tenet that all children of such as are members of the Church by outward profession which all are in that Parish where that Childe was born ought to be baptized Pr. If it be a fault let him or them answer for it who did it it may be they are able to give satisfaction therein But touching that which you said before that some are to be accounted unclean we cannot censure any as profane or unclean nor keep them from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper the Minister cannot do it of himself without the Elders Church-Officers joyn with him Although the Minister know the Communicants to be prodigiously wicked or ignorant and in all probabilitie eat and drink their own judgment or damnation he cannot keep them from the Sacrament Such must be suspended by the Church before the Minister can refuse to admit them and untill then their children ought not to be denied the Sacrament of Baptisme for the reason before alledged Ph. Touching admitting all to the Lords Supper upon that ground because the Minister cannot refuse them not being prohibited by the Church you mean the Presbyterie I answer the Minister is bound to forbear to administer the Sacrament to them whom he knowes eat and drink their own judgment for the reasons aforesaid Although you have not the power of the Church-censures in your hand The reason is clear because it is alwaies a sin to give holy things to dogs and to prophane Gods Ordinances But it s no sin to forbear to administer a Sacrament upon just occasion for a time The Jews were not reproved for omission of Circumcision in the Wilderness Joshua 5.5 and the Passeover upon just occasion might be deferred for a moneth Numb 9.9.10 And although I think it no sin to communicate with the wicked in the Ordinances where I am not a personal actor nor approver of their sin but a partaker Yet it s without doubt a sin to be an actor in such a case for the actor transgresseth the rule and causeth others to transgress Pr. It seems you stumble at mixt Congregations do you ever think to finde a Church on earth so clean as not to have wicked men in it The tares will grow in the field with the wheat untill the harvest which is the end of the world Ph. I confess your mixt Parochiall Congregations do so far make mee stumble that I much question whether they can be reputed true visible Churches of Christ And I hold that manie of them are not having not the essentials either the material nor formal causes of a Church in Gospel sense but are rather the Synagogues of Satan like Priests like people and the best are leprous and very unclean I know the Tares shall grow with the wheat Matth. 13.38 but if you mean by Tares profane wicked men they shall grow in the field that is in the world not in the Church the Tares which shall be in the Church untill the harvest are hypocrites profane men shall be cashiered or rather never admitted into the Churches of Christ But I cannot devise
how its possible these Parochiall Congregations can be purged without disbanding there are so few who are fit to be Church-members and so many of the wicked Pr. Although we have not the Discipline set up to sweep and cleanse the Church yet we endeavor to put a difference between the precious and the vile and to give everie one their portion and to order things in the best manner we can both for the Ministerie and people Ph. It s true you have the Image or rather counterfeit of some such thing as putting a difference in he Popish Vestries But I pray you what garments have you to keep there that the Vestrie must needs be upheld the Whoores smock with the Cope Rochet Tippet and other trumperie are gone And I know not any of Baals Priests here who now use such vestments that there is any need of a Vestrie to put them in or that so manie men need be trusted with them Pr. That meeting which you scoffe at is no such Vestrie it s only a place for the heads of the Parish to meet in to consult about the affairs and Orders of the Church and for setling and chusing the Minister when there is need and providing maintenance for him Ph. It seems then that those Vestrie-men who are there to consult are more worthie then the rest who are without and may not intermeddle with these things about which they consult These do very well resemble the conclave of Cardinals at Rome advising about the chusing deposing and ordering the affairs of the Pope and his Church But I pray you by what Law of God have these your Vestrie men autoritie to elect and put out the Minister and to prescribe rules and Lawes for the residue of the people I protest against all their Orders and agreements how just soever they may seeme as not daring to submit to such an usurped power being contrarie to Christian libertie in which the Apostle Paul commands the Galatians and in them all Christians to stand fast and to maintain the same as being purchased by Christ himself Gal. 5.1 compared with chap. 3.1 3. chap. 4.10 Pr. I confess this Vestrie is not a right Presbyterie nor claim they any such power by colour of any divine Law But yet for order and conveniencie I think they ought to be tolerated untill the time of reformation But Sir what doth this concern you It becomes you to be a hearer and a learner rather then a Teacher having no calling thereunto Ph. It concerns me and every Christian as a member of the Church if your Church be a true Church to elect our own Minister and not to have him thrust upon us either without or against our wills or consents as the manner now is And he that comes in otherwise then by the suffrage of the people enters not by the door but comes in as a Thief and a Robber and hath no lawful calling Calvin Instit l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 15. Act. 14.23 Pr. For our calling to the Ministerie we doubt not of it nor ever questioned it being confident its warrantable Those who ordained us being Bishops and lawfull Presbyters or at least they stood in the place of such and acts don by them are valid Sacraments administred by Papists and other hereticks are right Sacraments so they be duly administred for the matter although joyned with their corruptions And I hold it unlawfull for any man to take upon him the Office or function of a Minister without a lawfull calling And I finde that in those ancient Canons called the Canons of the Apostles it is ordained that one Bishop may ordain a Presbyter Ph. This is a poor and insufficient calling if a Bishop had any autoritie to ordain a Minister or to judge of his gifts in order to his admission to a Church which I denie and the same is a point of Poperie yet that thereupon the Churches suffrage or assent should be by the Bishop conferred upon the Minister is against all sense and reason much more against Religion which ought to be squared by the word as the Rule Mar. de vulson de libert de le Eglises Gallicane Pag. 148. ca. 9. And for your Canons of which you speak none regard them but the more ignorant sort of Papists they being known to be of a later date then the Apostles and are credited as much as Lucianus scoffes Tobits and Judiths stories or Jeffery Munmouth his tales And those Canons were coyned just at his time some four hundred years since by some of Jeffery's Religion But can you shew no more then this for your calling then give over railing against others who have not the same and yet it may be a better calling then you have Pr. Why what do our Ministers of the Church of England want or what is requisite to a lawfull Calling to the Ministerie Ph. Besides abilities of gifts and inward graces every Minister ought to have a more due ordination and this is to be performed by the Church or Congregation for the better effecting whereof they may take the advice of the learned who are able to make tryal of his gifts and of his abilitie and aptness to teach And then the same is perfected by the free election or suffrage of the people who are Church-members And in these things the Scripture is plain shew how you have such a calling Pr. For the first I had thought I had given you satisfaction alreadie when I told you we were ordained by Bishops who had abilitie to judge of the Ministers gifts and were or stood in the place of true Presbyters And for that which you call Election or the Suffrage or assent of the people although it have no place with us regarding everie circumstance in the formalitie of it yet we have that which is equivalent to it Ph. I pray you what is that Pr. We at the least some of us have the consent of the Parish or at least the most of them either before or after our admission and if not we are presented by the Patron of the Church who is instead of all the Congregation being their representative in as much as he was intrusted by them all to chuse for them all in regard of their weakness and to avoid confusion in the election and his act in presenting is the act of all the people as the Acts of Parlament being made by those who are chosen by the people are the Acts of the people And the people are bounden as well by the Acts of the one as of the other yet if any man except against the person presented he bath his liberty to do it Ph. O most profound divinitie or rather notable poperie By the same Rule and upon the same ground the Pope collated to many Churches in England and the Bishops had the oversight of all the Churches in their Diocesses some peculiars excepted and put in and put out at their pleasures and this must be allowed for the people