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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
reason_n	church_n	member_n	visible_a	3,184	5	9.3025	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A08426	A true report of the disputation or rather priuate conference had in the Tower of London, with Ed. Campion Iesuite, the last of August. 1581. Set downe by the reuerend learned men them selues that dealt therein. VVhereunto is ioyned also a true report of the other three dayes conferences had there with the same Iesuite. Which nowe are thought meete to be published in print by authoritie	Nowell, Alexander, 1507?-1602.; Day, William, 1529-1596. aut; Fielde, John, d. 1588.; Fulke, William, 1538-1589. aut; Goad, Roger, 1538-1610. aut; Campion, Edmund, Saint, 1540-1581. aut; Walker, John, d. 1588. aut; Charke, William, d. 1617. aut	1583 (1583)	STC 18744; ESTC S113389	169,017	230

purpose is not to deale by discourse but briefely by Logical arguments according to the order of schooles c. After he had inquired D. Fulkes name Campion also spake after this maner Campion The disputation that I desire is yet behinde for I desire it might bee in the Uniuersities This may bee called a conference but it is not the disputation which I require Besides these conferences are vnequall both in respect of the suddainnesse of them as also for want of such necessary helpes as were fitte and conuenient I see that you haue some appoynted to note as if it were made a solemne matter I shoulde haue the like so shoulde I haue come better furnished and all these might haue bene better profited Besides I haue bene yll dealt withall already things heretofore spoken by me haue bene mistaken and published in print otherwise then I euer meant D. Fulke For the suddennesse it is all alike with vs. Master Lieutenant sent you worde by my request to chuse the question your selfe on Saturday last at noone so that you had knowledge of the question as soone as we and also the choyse and appointing thereof As for the noting it is not made so solemne a matter that it can preiudice you but to preuent false reportes that may bee spread of the conference iniurious as well to you as to vs. As for the disputation you require it is not at our appoyntment It must be ordred by them that are to appoynt both you and vs. We come by commandement c. but let vs goe to the matter You slaunder vs and Master Caluine likewise in the thirde chapter of your booke for defining of the Catholike Church as we do You say we make it a Platonicall Idaea an ayrie thing that is no where c. But I will proue that it is against the nature of the Catholike Church at any time to be visible Campion Where do I slaunder you or Caluine Reade my booke I wil maintaine my booke and euery part of it And as for the Catholike Church I will mayntaine that from the time of Adam to Christ and from Christ vnto vs the Church hath bene visible But because you say I slaunder you and Caluine shewe my wordes D. Fulke These are your wordes Non est ausus contrauenire sonitu videri noluit Ecclesiae quam toties Scripturae commemorant refragari nomen callidè retinuit rem ipsam funditùs definiendo sustulit c. And ye quote Cal. Institut lib. 4. cap. 1. Sect. 2. 3. Here you plainely slaunder Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church comprehending all the elect of God that haue bene are or shal be to be inuisible Camp The Catholike Church is considered according to her parts triumphant in heauen and militant on earth generally particularly and I am ready to maintaine that alwayes the militant Church in earth is visible euery 〈◊〉 in his mayer knoweth this who in their prayers pray for the Church militant therefore this is the poynt whether this be alwayes visible Fulke Wel then it appeareth in the very beginning that you swarue from the title of your owne booke sclaundering vs without cause for the definition of the whole Catholike Church and Sophistically you goe from the whole to a parte from the Catholike Church to the Church militant which is but a part of it when as the whole Catholike Church comprehendeth all the elect and is the full body of Christ that filleth all in all things as the Apostle sayeth and as we confesse in the articles of our faith We beleeue the Catholike church We deny not that the church militant sometime is visible but we affirme that the whole Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen is not visible And what cause haue you then to exclaime vpon Caluine and vs for defining the Catholike Church to be inuisible This we are here ready to prooue Camp I haue sayd that vpon earth the Church is alwayes visible But I pray you let vs speake of the Church militant I am sure these gentlemen would heare not of a Church of Saints in heauen but of a Church in earth w●…etd they may ioyne themselues what shoulde we talke of the Church in heauen They would rather knowe I am sure of what Church they are here Aske them Fulke Wel then you are found recreant in this paynt openly to sclaunder our definition to be such as should take away the nature of the Church in that we make it inuisible and now when it commeth to the tryall you will not deale with the Catholike Church whereof our definition is giuen but with a part of it to witte that which is vpon earth which wee neuer denyed in some sense to be alwayes visible because it consisteth of men vpō earth although it be not alwayes seene because it is oftentimes hidden from the worlde and sometimes also from the true members thereof But this Church vpon earth you wil haue to be alwaies visible Seeing therefore you giue ouer y● defence of your slaūder of our definition of the Catholike Church which we came prepared to maintaine we are ready also to reason of the church militāt Campion The state of the question is that the Church militant vpon earth can not be hidden but it is alwayes knowen so that a man may vnderstand of what Church he is c. Fulke The case may be such as a member can know no more but himselfe what meane you by visible Campion I meane to be visible is to knowe one another to meete at Sacraments when I can tell that I am of this church and you of that I a Catholike and you a Protestant as I certainely know there is a Church in Fraunce a church in Spaine and in Flaunders though I be farre from it and we may knowe one another a member can say This is my pastor these are my prelates and gouernours This is playne I would to God I had one also to write for me I pray you let me not be mistaken for I haue had great wrong that wayes and thinges haue bene put in print that I neuer spake or meant Fulke If we haue this discoursing we shal neuer haue done I would you would be briefe I will prooue from a place of scripture that the church militant vnderstanding visible as you say is not alwayes visible in earth Elias complaineth that he was left alone c. Ergo the Church was not then visible Campion I deny the Antecedent further declare the meaning of the place which maketh altogether for me For Elias setteth out the schismatical church of the Samaritanes In this schismaticall church a member being driuen out as sometime it falleth out to be the worlde turning and changing he might not know the rest but yet knew there were 7000. that neuer bowed their knees to Baal Agayne you must not bring a particular to ouerthrowe a generall There were none there therefore

Goade That is not to the point though some remained yet they were hidde All being persecuted and put to death that coulde be knowen or founde Campion The time of these persecutions was euen like to our times For then the Christians were exiled put to death driuē into corners as the Catholikes are nowe and yet there remained inough c. and they were knowen Goade Surely you make euill and vntrue conparisons you haue no such cause to complaine of bloody persecutiōs in the time of our gratious Queene and doe not wel to compare her highnes peaceable and milde gouernement with those tyrannical persecutions ye might better liken your crueltie shewed in Queene Maries time to those examples I had thought to haue founde more modestie in you Campion Well let the comparison bee of Q. Maries time then Protestants were put to death yet there remained many Goade The question is not whether they remained but whether they were seen But you said of those Emperours times that there remained many and they were not vnknowen They were vnknowen both to the faithles and faithfull ergo they were altogether vnknowen Campion I deny both partes of the antecedent Goade Then I must proue both distinctly and first touching the faithles The faithles could not knowe the Church therefore they did not knowe it Camp They knew it not by faith but by sense they knewe it Goade Iohn 3. The worlde knoweth not vs because it knoweth not him Campion I tolde you they did not knowe him as they ought to know him to saluation They knewe but not fruitfully and effectually As I knowe you are a Protestant but yet beleeue not your religion And a man that saith Masse is knowen and yet you doe not beleeue in it Goade But though the persons were knowen yet they knewe them not to be of the Church I will come to the other part of the antecedent As is the whole so are the partes But God onely knoweth the whole Ergo he onely knoweth the partes For the members of Christ are knowen to Christ alone By reason of many hypocrites men are not able to iudge who are truely faithfull There are many wolues within and many sheepe without Deus nouit qui sunt sui 2. Tim. 2. God knoweth who are his therefore the true members of Christ can not be knowen but to God alone Campion I knowe not who is elect but I knowe who is a Catholike I knowe not whether the Bishop of Rome bee elect or no c. Goade Onely the elect are of the Church whereof Christ is the head Camp I say that both good euill are of the visible Church Goade Christ hath no dead members of his body therefore the reprobate can not bee of the Church I will helpe you with a distinction They may be in the Church but not of the Church Campion The distinction is Caluins and therefore I refuse it But you answere your selfe for euill men may be viua membra Christi the liuely members of Christ in respect of faith but not in respect of charitie A man may be a member of the body of Christ as it is here in earth being a wicked man but onely the godly are members of his body as it is in heauen Your own argument doth confound you It is impossible to knowe the elect therefore it is impossible the Church should be inuisible Goade It is your parte to answere not to oppose you vse many words graunt absurdities Your argumēt doth not folow Campion You cannot know any particular man to be elect you cannot pronounce it of your selfe therefore you cannot measure the Church by election then it remaineth the Church must be visible because it must be knowen Goade To be elect or true members of Christ is one thing to be in the visible Church is another Campion This was Wickliefes error that onely the electe were true members of the Church but as I haue sayde no man can knowe who is elect and therefore you teache that no man can knowe a member of the Church nor no man can knowe that he shall be saued Goade Particular electiō is not so vnknowen as you would make it for a man may haue knowledge of his owne election by vndoubted testimonies and see the signes of election in others Fulke You saide before that visibilitie was an inseparable qualitie of the Church whereupon I reason thus If it be an inseparable qualitie it is an inseparable note But it is not an inseparable note Ergo not an inseparable qualitie Campion I deny both the Maior and the Minor both may be doubted of Fulke I will proue both Campion Giue me leaue A note is more then a qualitie The qualitie is to goe right to goe the neerest and gainest way the safest way A note is a marke that may be remoued that teacheth to turne on the right hand or on the lefte by this crosse or by that windmill or marke c. Fulke I graunt there is a difference betweene a note and a qualitie and you needed not so many wordes to haue shewed that but I speake of an inseparable note and an inseparable qualitie That qualitie which is inseparable being also a note must needes be an inseparable note Also of that your selfe haue saide that it is an essentiall qualitie I will proue the Maior Whatsoeuer marke is of the essence or nature is inseparable The visiblenes is a marke which is of the essence and nature of the Church Therefore it is an inseparable marke Campion It is an inseparable qualitie but not an inseparable note but after a sorte for a qualitie must euermore stande but a marke may be taken away Fulke The question is whether it be an inseparable note of the Church that cannot be taken away Campion I say it may be in a sense Fulke I know not what sense you speake of but this is euident by your owne confession the visiblenes of the Church is a marke and it is of the nature Ergo it is inseparable so my Maior is plaine Campion Proue your Minor Fulke There was a time when visiblenes was no note of the Church ergo it is not an inseparable note Campion I deny the Antecedent Fulke There was a time when the Church was only knowē by the Scriptures therefore there was a time when visiblenes was no note of the Church Campion I deny both the Antecedent and the consequent Fulke I will proue both and first the Antecedent Cam. Nay proue the consequent first then the antecedēt Fulke Why the other is first both in order and nature Campion Nay Whensoeuer the consequent is denied you must straight proue the argument Fulke That is if the consequent onely be denied but seeing you deny both I will first proue that which in nature order is first and afterward I will proue the other if it neede It is but a sory shift of you to decline from the point of the question Chrysostome

when he wrote The other is the continuall contestation of the Churches succeeding To this effect writeth S. Augustine and so be all latter Churches barred from authoritie to make any writings canonicall scripture specially those that haue of olde bene doubted of They may testifie what the olde Churches before them haue done as we nowe doe Hereunto they saide againe that it was blasphemie after those Councils to call those bookes Apocrypha or to doubt of the authoritie of them It is rather most horrible blasphemie said we to make humane writings equall with the Canonicall scriptures as of late your Tridentine Councill hath done and as your Pope being but one man hath made his Decretal epistles then with S. Hierome Eusebius and other ancient godly fathers to call those bookes Apocrypha which they do so call And we said that notwithstanding those Councils Caietanus their Popes Cardinall thought it no blasphemie who in the ende of his expositions vpon the olde testament in very plaine wordes maketh the same difference of the bookes of the scriptures doeth not onely alowe the iudgement of Hierome but addeth further that all writitings yea of bishops of Rome them selues of whome he nameth some must be brought to S. Hieroms rule They vtterly reiected Cardinall Caietanus because as they said he was but one man against all the Church We said you of your side will not be charged with the wordes of others though they be the Popes Cardinals and yet you doe thinke it reason that we should be charged with euery worde that hath slipped from Luther Nay you charge him and vs by him with that which you can neuer proue that he did write or speake Hart said further that Caietanus was a good scholemā and traueled in that course with commendation but when hee began to become an expositor of the scriptures said he then he lost his grace and credit We answered if they thought it reason to charge vs with all the sayings of Luther or of any other we might by good and great reason charge them with the sayings of so great learned a Cardinall of Rome as Caietanus was Last of all wee came to the place of S. Augustine in his second booke De doctrina Christiana Which Campion and his fellowes gladly receiued because they said it made for them and not for vs. For saide they S. Augustine rehearseth those bookes for Canonicall scriptures which you call Apocrypha To this wee answered that they shoulde rather charge Saint Hierome and Eusebius and other auncient fathers who doe call them Apocrypha And S. Augustine in that place rehearsing the order of the bookes of scriptures though said we he differ somwhat from Eusebius and S. Hierome in shewe of wordes yet hee doeth in deede agree with them For where they deuide the bookes of the scriptures into three sorts that is Canonicall Apocrypha and feigned or vntrue Augustine deuideth them into Canonicall and Apocrypha onely and then he deuideth the Canonicall bookes into two sortes that is those that be certainely true which we with S. Hierome and Eusebius do call properly Canonicall and those that haue bene doubted of which Eusebius and S. Hierome do call Apocrypha And S. Augustine nameth those that be vtterly vntrue Apocrypha which Eusebius calleth doubtfull feigned and forged And this may be gathered out of Augustine him selfe in diuers places whereof we haue noted some And albeit Augustine calleth those bookes Canonicall yet he giueth not the like authoritie to them as namely to the Maccabees and to the other of that sort as he doeth to those that be Christes the Lords witnesses as he nameth them which be these that are named properly Canonicall Here would they not admit in any wise that the worde Canonicall was aequiuocum or of diuers significations in diuers places but that wheresoeuer that worde was founde it brought all bookes so called vnder one kinde Much time was spent here about and the matter was much argued on Master Campion and his fellowes part At the last Master Campion was desired by vs to reade the chapter in that Canon law beginning In Canonicis which Gratian takes out of this place of Augustine and first that hee would reade the rubrick which he seemed both to do And Pound one of his companions sitting by who with his importunitie impertinent speaches had often interrupted the course of the conference saide Father Campion let them reade their places them selues Yet at the length Master Campion read it and it is thus Inter Canonicas scripturas Decretales Epistolae connumerantur which after much desiring he englished also The decretall Epistles are numbred together among the Canonicall Scriptures Whereupon one of vs saide you charge vs with blasphemie for naming those bookes Apocrypha which Saint Hierome Eusebius and other ancient holy fathers doe so name but here may you see most horrible blasphemie in deede in the Canonical lawe of your Pope which matcheth his Decretall Epistles that is meere fables with the Maiestie of the Canonicall Scriptures as he doeth in this distinction and sundry other places whereby you may see to what point this boldnesse of making mens writings Canonicall Scriptures is come Then saide we to M. Campion do you hold that Popes decrees for Canonical scriptures as you do the bookes of Moyses and the Prophets He answered no and graunted then that the worde Canonicall was aequinocum or of diuers significations which before they all did so constantly denie Whereupon we sayde that we had some good hope of Master Campion for that he blushed And we sayde further that Cardinall Caietanus in the place before alleadged sayeth expressely that S. Augustine placed those books in the Canon of maners but not in the Canon of doctrine whereby he plainely declareth that the word Canonicall is aequiuocum After this he was desired to reade the text of that Chapter and there he founde and could not denie but that the place of Augustine was vntruely reported by Gratian and by manifest corruption drawē altogether from the meaning of Augustine For where S. Augustine saith that those Scriptures are to be taken for Canonicall which the most or greatest part of Christian Churches so take among the which those Churches be which deserued to haue Apostolique Seas and to receiue Epistles from the Apostles these wordes of S. Augustine are chaunged and in the place of the Apostolique Seas is put the Apostolique Sea meaning the Church of Rome and those Churches which deserued to receaue Epistles from the said Church of Rome which is cleane contrary to S. Augustines wordes and meaning Both often before and here specially Master Campion and his fellowes seemed to be desirous to dispute vpon some pointes of religion rather then to continue in this examination of his booke which we said we woulde not at afternoone refuse but the forenoone qd we is so farre spēt that we must at this time make

his conscience be neuer so pure it sanctifieth not the bodie of Christ Therefore there is no way for you to escape Goad If there bee transubstantiation then Christ is really present in his true body But Christ is not really present in his true body Ergo there is not transubstantiation Camp Christ is really present in his true body Goade He is not present in his sensible body Therefore not in his true body Campion I deny your argument Goade It is the argument of our Sauiour Christ who neither deceiueth nor can be deceiued Luk. 24. 39. See my handes and my feete that it is I handle me and see c. Here Christ proueth his true body to be present by the senses of seeing and handling as reasoning thus You see and feele my body Therefore I am present in my true body And it is not a spirite as you feare as if he could not haue bene seene and handled then not to be beleeued to be his true body Camp The argumēt of Christ is good The body that might be felt must needes be a true body The body of Christ is alwayes sensible but he doth whē it pleaseth him withdraw this propertie Goad Then by our Sauiour Christes reason we may doubt of the trueth of his body Camp It is said of Christ that he vanished out of their sight yet his body was visible And can not Christ bee present nowe without our seeing him Goad He was taken out of their sight and then howe could they see him but you say his body is present with vs. Will you chalenge more vnto you then Christ him selfe doth It pleased Christ to be iudged by our senses touching the presence of his body our senses do see feele smell and taste nothing but bread Campion Christes pleasure is ●…nough 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 ●…e him rise out of his sepulchre Goad It pleased the Lorde to holde their eyes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 astonished for feare so when he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is true that wee can not vse this sense Campion Then his body may be 〈◊〉 to ●…s if he will yet he in him selfe is alwayes sensible so the cause of not seeing him is in him and not in mine eye Goade Yea if our eyes were holden that we could not see but it is manifest that the Apostles knewe nothing of this doctrine of reall presence in the sacrament before Christes resurrection For if they had bene taught before in the 〈◊〉 that Christ was present in the sacrament in his naturall bodie and yet they sawe and handled nothing els but bread this argument nowe after his resurrection drawen from their senses had bene of small force Campion Ye haue heard mine answere though now it pleased him to shew him selfe palpable yet there may bee impediment in him and also in vs why this is not alwayes so Here was no miracle when Christ did thus shewe him selfe but Christ wil be present in the sacrament miraculously Goad Let vs ende with prayer Wee yelde thee humbly thankes most gracious God and merciful father that it hath pleased thee to call vs to the knowledge and profession of thine euerlasting trueth reuealed in thine holy worde and although it bee the lotte condition of the same truthe alwayes to haue aduersaries and gainsayers that set themselues against the cleare light of thy word yet we beseech thee so to establish and confirme our faith in the knowen trueth that we be neuer offended by reason of errors and heretiques knowing that as there hath bene alwayes amongst thy people so there wil be still false prophets which priuily shall bring in damnable heresies yea there must be heresies in the Church that they which are approued may be knowen But rather O Lord by this meanes stirre vs vp the more to study and meditate in thy lawe And specially vouchsafe to worke in our heartes a greater measure of zeale and loue towardes thy truthe seeing that of thy iust iudgement thou vsest to sende strong delusions that they should beleeue lyes which woulde not receiue the loue of thy trueth And amongest the multitude of those that wander in blindnes and errour wee beseeche thee in thy good t●…e so many of them as pertaine vnto thy kingdome of thy mercie to conuert and the rest that are obstinate against thy trueth and glorie of thy iust iudgement to co●…de and finally to breake the might of Sathan by the power of our Lord Iesus Christ to whome with thee and the holy spirit be all glorie now and euer Amen William Fulke Roger Goade A remembrance of the conference had in the Tower of London betwixt M. D. Walker and M. William Charke opponents Edmund Campion Iesuite respondent the 27. of September 1581. as followeth 1. Whether the Scriptures containe sufficient doctrine for our saluation 2. Whether faith onely iustifieth MAster Charke beganne the action with this godly prayer but Campion refusing to pray with them becrossed himselfe on the forehead breastes and other partes after his superstitious maner Our helpe is in the name of the Lord who hath made heauen and earth O eternall God and most mercifull father we thy seruantes doe humbly acknowledge that we are by nature miserable sinners ful of darkenesse and errour without thee neither meete to receiue the loue nor able to yeelde the obedience of thy trueth Therefore wee beseech thee in Iesus Christ to throw all our sinnes into the bottome of the sea to chase away all our darkenes with the brightnesse of thy wisedome that we may growe vp in the knowledge in the loue and in the obedience of thy most holy will And because we are here assembled to maintaine thy trueth against the errour and superstition of Antichrist vouchsafe O Lord our God to be present in this action by thy holy spirit and so sanctifie our hearts and gouerne our tongues that our corrupt affections being suppressed all things may be done in a godly zeale for thy trueth and nothing against it Moreouer for those that are come to heare graunt that as many as loue thy Gospell may be more and more confirmed in the knowledge thereof by that which shal be faithfully deliuered out of thy holy worde such as be otherwise minded wee pray thee that they may yeelde either to the manifest trueth if they appertayne to thy holy election or being none of thine that they may appeare guyltie and conuicted of a lying spirite such as is gone out into the worlde to deceyue those that will not receyue the loue of thy trueth but delight in darkenesse These things O Lord and whatsoeuer thou knowest to be good for vs we aske in the name of Iesus Christ and by that forme of prayer which he hath taught vs. Our father c. After the prayer was ended M. D. Walker entred with this preface Walker Gentlemen ye shall vnderstande that we be sent hither by authoritie to talke conferre with one called Campion an English man borne

faith being of things that are not seene You haue graunted many absurdities this daye while you labour to defende that the Church on earth is alwayes visible And now the conclusion is worst of al that the visible Church for which you are so earnest is proued to be no article of faith Campion Why may not a man see yet beleeue Peter sawe him whom he beleeued saying thou art Christ the sonne of the liuing God c. Fulke That which hee sawe of Christ was experimentall knowledge but that which he confessed Christ to be the sonne of God was of faith and not of sense For flesh and blood reuealed it not vnto him but God from heauen That which Peter sawe of Christ with his bodily eyes was seene of many vnbeleeuing Iewes and of Iudas the traytor but his confession which came of faith he had not by bodily sight but by diuine reuelation It is not of faith to see men which are the members of the Church but to see them as they are members of the Church that is of faith therfore that which is seene of the Church is not of faith Camp Why you said the Church might be seene by experimentall faith as Peter sawe Christ and beleeued Fulke When said I so Campion Euen now when you spake of Peter Fulk I neuer thought it much lesse did I speake it It is needfull there should be writing els I see you would outface the matter I said the cleane contrarie That which Peter sawe of Christ was experimentall knowledge and not faith that which he beleeued and confessed he sawe not Euen so I say that which we beleeue and confesse in our Creede of the Catholike Church wee neither do see neither can we see Campion I can see the whole world though I cannot see it all at once so I can see the Catholike Church in her parts although I cannot see it all at once or in one place Fulke Whatsoeuer you can see at seuerall times and in seuerall places of the Catholike Church is no article of faith For that which we beleeue of the Catholike Church is not seene at any time or in any place Campion That is true Fulke Ergo the whole Catholike Church and euery part thereof as it is of faith is not visible Here Campion of himselfe brake vp Campion Shall we meete againe It were to be considered of what question we shall talke Here question being made what point they should deale vpon and being asked whether he would defend the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ he denied to medle therein as being daungerous vnles leaue might be obtained of her Maiesties most honourable Counsail Then being demanded whether he woulde deale with that question in the after noone Whether the Church might erre he consented the company present agreeing therunto And so the houre was appointed at two of the clocke after dinner the Replyers hauing no longer time to prouide their arguments In the after noone ❧ The Question whether the visible Church may erre FIrst because promise was made in the forenoone that those places which were omitted should bee shewed D. Goade brought forth his place out of Chrysostome vpon Math. 5. Rursus eos per ista ad bene viuendum ac diligetiam cohortatur ostendens vt studeant esse soliciti quasiante omniū oculos constituti in medio orbis terrarum theatro Nolite inquit aspicere quia in isto nunc residemus loco in exigua sumus parte certaminis Sic enim eritis manifesti cunctis quemadmodum ciuitas in montis vertice collocata vel sicut lucerna in domo super candelabrū relucens Againe by these things he exhorteth them by diligence of well liuing that they might stande to be carefull as they that are set before all mens eyes and in the middest of the Theatre of the whole world Do not you regarde saith he that we remaine nowe in this place and are but in a small part of our battle for you shal be so manifest to all men as a citie placed vpon the top of a hill or as a candle shining in a house vpon a candlestick c. Here you see by the iudgement of Chrysostome expounding the place that it onely respecteth the Apostles which you denied to day For he exhorteth them to liue well as those that are set in the sight and eyes of all and therefore must be carefull howe they beare them selues vpon that open stage of the whole worlde being as a citie vpon an hill Campion The place is nothing against me for it pertaineth to the whole Church Doth Chrysostome cōtrarie any thing spoken by me doeth not their function their faith and religion their place shew that this is not spoken onely to them Goade These are but wordes It is plaine hee noteth their doctrine by the salte and their conuersation by the light Campion He speaketh not any thing contrarie to that which I haue said Goade Yes you say the place meaneth the whole Church to proue the visibilitie thereof as a citie set vpon an hill can not bee hidde Whereas Chrysostome interpreteth it of the Ministerie onely as is manifest by the word Salt the whole drift of the place Campion Of all other first it belongeth to the Prelates then to their flockes as I haue shewed you by the example of a Master of a familie Goade It belongeth in deede to the flocke also to liue well but this place is not directed vnto them It is absurde against the whole scope of the place to make a general conclusion from a particular from the Apostles to the whole Church Campion The Apostles were faithfull they include the whole Church as they were Christians and not Apostles Goade Why then that which was spoken to the Apostles was likewise spoken to the Church But it was said to the Apostles Drinke you all of this ergo to the whole Church Campion That was personall and in respect of their functiō he spake onely in respect of those that were present but there was none present but the Apostles like that which was saide to the Apostles Go ye and preach to all nations baptizing c. doeth he therefore commande the people also to preache and minister the Sacraments Goade The rase is farre vnlike The receauing of the Sacramentes belong to all Christians they must all receaue And though preaching the word and ministring in respect of the funetion be onely appropriate to the Apostles and Ministers yet the word and Sacraments are commō to al Christians So by manifest difference it appeareth that the commādement Go preach is personall belonging to one calling and the commandement Drinke ye all of this is generall to all the faithfull Campion There is no place in the institution that cōmandes the common people to drinke or not to drinke Goade The Apostle the best interpreter of Christes institution applieth it to the whole Church 1. Cor. 11. verse 23. That

which I receaued of the Lord c. And by the same reason you may say as was said before there is no commandement to receaue the Communion Campion There is no cōmandement in that institutiō that the lay people should receaue the Communion Fulke That is a shamefull absurditie But nowe seeing the place is shewed let vs come to the question agreed vpon Whether the Church militant 〈◊〉 erre That it may 〈◊〉 I proue thus Whatsoeuer error is incident to euery member is incident to the whole But it is incident to euery member to erre Ergo to the whole Campion I deny both the Maiorand Minor Fulke Why the Maior is from a place in Logique that which is incident to euery part must needes be incident to the whole as euery part of a mans body is subiect to corruption therefore the whole body is subiect to corruption Campion There is no such place in Logique Euery man may erre but not the whole gathered together Your example is not like for the whole hath a promise and so hath not euery particular man Fulke The whole hath no promise that it shall not erre more theu euery particular member for euery member of Christ hath the spirit of Christ which is the spirit of truthe and therefore the same promise that the whole hath Campion Why then there should be no heretikes Fulke Yes heretikes may be within the Church but not of the Church Si ex nobis essent permansissent nobiscum saith Saint Iohn If they had bene of vs they had abidden with vs. Camp They were of vs in apparance in outward shewe Fulke I denie that they were of vs though in outward profession they seemed to bee of vs for in deede they were neuer of vs. Iohn 3. They went out from vs but they were neuer of vs. And he addeth the reason For if they had bene of vs they had remained with vs. They were within the Church but they were neuer of the Church Campion Christ saith of them that fall away in persecution that they beleeued the Gospel therfore before persecution they were of vs but they departed from vs c. they were of vs according to faith though they were not according to election Fulke Christ speaketh not there of true iustifying faith nor of the elect but of those that beleeued for a time For if they had bene of vs they would haue remained still with vs but they were not of vs neither according to iustifying faith nor according to election Camp The meaning of Iohn is they were not of vs according to the election of God yet they were of the militant Church which conteineth both good and euill Fulke It is true that in the visible Church be conteined both good and euill but the elect onely are of the Church Campion Why what say you by Dauid when he cōmitted adulterie was he elect and the childe of God Fulke I say he did wickedly but yet he was and remained elect and the childe of God Campion This is strange But I say when he cōmitted adulterie he was the childe of the deuill for it is plaine He that committeth sinne is the seruant of sinne But Dauid committed sinne Ergo he was the seruant of sinne and the childe of the deuill Goade The meaning of the place is that he that giueth him selfe ouer to sinne is the seruant of sinne to be led wholy by it in whom sinne reigneth But no particular sinne in the elect doeth make the children of God to become the children of the Deuil neither doth separate them from the hope of saluation Fulke He that is once a true member of Christ can neuer become a member of the Deuill Campion Then once good and neuer euill Fulke That followeth not Hee may fall into euill but neuer finally Goade The place is to be vnderstodde of him that falleth of malice and not of him that falleth by infirmitie Campion He that falleth into adulterie falleth malitiously for he may resist if he will For euery member of the Church hath power to withstand sinne if he will Fulke Nowe we shall haue free will Campion I meane not of him selfe but by grace For when God hath giuen him grace he may if he will resiste Answere me this place He is the seruant of sinne that committeth sinne Fulke You were answered before Campion Why then you holde that a Catholike falling into adulterie is still the childe of God I graunt that for euery offēce God doth not cast out his sonnes For in a great house In magna domo there be many sonnes which though they be disobediēt they cease not to be sonnes till they be cast out c. but when they are cast out they are no more the sonnes of God Fulk God casteth out none of his si●…es For if they be sonnes they are also heyres They are the Apostles wordes Camp I say they are sonnes for the tune which are cast out Eijcit in exteriores tenebras He casteth them out into vtter darknes He that had not the nuptial garment maketh this claime to be the sonne of God and sitteth down amongst Gods children but he is cast out into vtter darkenes Fulk But he was neuer any sonne but an hypocrite therfore no maruaile if he were cast out S. Paul saith that a sonne is an heire Camp Why are not all that are bapti●… the sonnes of God Fulk No for they haue not all the spirit of adoption Camp Why then what iudge you of infants that die without Baptisme or immediatly after they are baptized are they not the children of God Fulke I take not vpon me to iudge But if they bee not Gods elect baptisme cannot make them his children Camp Then Christ commanded baptisme in vaine if it saue not those that are baptized Fulke That is not so for there is a necessary vse of baptizing though the holy Ghost be not giuen to euery one that receiueth baptisme I baptize with water saith Iohn Baptist●… but Christ baptizeth with the holy Ghost Camp I wil proue that infants are without si●… therefore must needes be saued For if they haue sinne they must either haue original sinne or actual sinne but being baptized they haue neither of both for originall sinne is taken away by baptisme as for actual sinne they neuer committed any ergo they are without sinne Fulke Originall sinne is not taken away from any in this life but it is not imputed to the elect M. Lieutenant M. Doctours the question that was appointed before dinner was Whether the visible Church may erre Goade M. Lieutenant he continually draweth vs into newe questions to auoid the matter in controuersie Shall I enter that question I will recite some Churches in the Apostles times aske your iudgemēt of thē then go to mine argumēt The Churches of Corinth of Galatia what say you to thē The Church of Corinth though they had a promise as you said did