these ruins Qu. 3. Whether the Church upon Earth be visible or invisible or whether both together considered in a different sense and under different respects Thus much I think Sir may suffice to give a resolution of the second question which was whether the Bishop of Condom's definition of the Church upon Earth was a good and sufficient definition viz. A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word or whether it was defective and required something else to be added to it You see the necessity of handling this subject with some exactness for it being our business to know what Society we must be of to obtain Salvation and both sides agreeing that it is the true Church being it concerns us to know to what Society the Promises of Jesus Christ are to be applied and both sides agreeing that it is the true Church The first thing in reason to be done is to form an abstracted Idea of the true Church before it be applied to any particular subject that so this may serve for a Rule and direct us to know at least what that true Church is which we enquire after We know in general that there is one true Church we know also that this Church is a Religious Society but when we come to define it particularly every one knows his own method of doing it This therefore is the first thing to be determined not only to avoid equivocation but to prevent a continual deviation which may otherwise happen through the whole dispute by means of a mistake in the beginning and this having given occasion to the second question the dispatching that already will mightily facilitate our enquiry into the third The thing then to be examined is whether the Society of true believers who only are the Church be visible or invisible or whether both in some senses and respects For the resolution of this Query I shall not say that this true Church being a Society of men and so a body that hath its external order as all other Societies have hath likewise consequent to that a visibility common to it with all other bodies Thus much is necessarily supposed for the Believers are not Angels nor invisible Spirits but in this respect like the rest of mankind But this visibility being supposed we must further enquire Whether there be not yet another which gives it the Character of Jesus Christ's true Church so that a man may say That the body we see and which is the object of our senses as the true Church of Christ In this there would not be the least difficulty had not God's design as to his Church been disturbed by the enemy of our Salvation For since God calls true Believers only and since as we have already shewn such alone constitute the Church were it not for what happens from some other thing there would not be among the outward Professors of Christianity either Hypocrites or Hereticks or Superstitious or worldly or profane persons And thus none but such as are truly the faithful being to be found among them this outward profession would be a sure means and an univocal Character to know the true Faith and Regeneration by and consequently to know the true Church of Jesus Christ as such So that we need say only thus much That although the Church were not immediately visible by its inward and cssential form because none can immediately see mens hearts but God only yet it would be visible by its external form as by a sure distinguishing Character For it might be seen by its Ministery and profession of Faith in Christ and known to such a degree that a man might infallibly and positively say That is the Church But we all know that is Jesus Christ sowed his good seed in the field of the world so to use the expressions in the Parable the enemy hath likewise sown Tares That is that with the true Believers are intermixt vast numbers of men who 〈◊〉 no more than the appearance and outside of Christianity and so make the outward profession to be a note subject to mighty uncertainties and equivocation This God hath permitted for reasons known to his own wisdom and hence have risen on one side false Churches and on the other false members of the true I mean whole Communities who have wrongfully assumed to themselves the title of a Church and single persons who wrongfully assumed the title of the Faithful So that the Church now like all other things liable to hypocrisy and dissimulation cannot be truly known without much difficulty And whereas according to the nature of the thing the Churches visibility and invisibility ought to lye here that its essential and internal from cannot be seen immediately and of it self but may by the mediation of its external form instead of this they do now consist further in a discerning between true and false a distinguishing betwixt that which is real and sincere and that which is counterfeit We must therefore examine how this distinction is to be made because in it consists the visibility or invisibility of the true Church Whether we must make it between several external bodies differing from one another or between several persons externally incorporated into the same Body I bâ—gin with the former and affirm that the discerning between several bodies depends upon some certain marks or characters whereby that body on whose side the true Church is may be distinguished from another where it is not I shall not now shew what those Characters are for this is another dispute between the Church of Rome and us which we need not here engage our selves in It is enough we are all agreed that such marks there are and that by them this distinction must be made That which most concerns us to take notice of and which I desire you would observe with a very particular attention is that after we have found this Body or external Society on whose side the true Church is we may and in reality do form to our selves two notions of it one proceeding from a mere Judgment of Charity the other from a Judgment of Reflection By the Judgment of Charity we look upon all within the Body to be true Believers indifferently For the searching of hearts being not in our power but peculiar to God Charity makes no distinctions but supposes that things are in truth what they should be and upon this supposition we call all that society the visible Church speaking simply and absolutely By the Judgment of Reflection having consulted the Rules of Scripture and the light of Experience we come to know that there are Tares mixed with the Wheat and that it is past a doubt that among these outward Professours are abundance of hypocritical superstitious ambitious and prophane people Hence we correct our first notion and term this Society a visible mixt Church Thus in the same external body we distinguish two different Bodies one of true
Believers that is not of the true Church On the other side when we see men undergo long sharp tryals without being removed either from the profession of the true Doctrine and Worship or from that of Righteousness and Holiness in this respect here is made a positive distinction and such as makes us acknowledg that these persons are of the true Church of Jesus Christ I confess these distinctions are not always either so certain as never to admit of mistakes nor so universal as not to confound one with another For a man may judg rashly of both sorts either for want of knowing mens particular circumstances and the motives they went upon or some other way and it is never seen that all Hypocrites discover themselves at once But however there is great use to be made of this distinction and such a visibility of the true Church results from it as is in some sort personal according to our Hypothesis Now Sir you see whether M. de Condom was in the right to take it for granted as if it were a certain truth that there was no visible Church but such a one as he defined that comprehends good and bad true Believers and Worldlings contrary to the Scriptures and St. Augustin's sense You see too whether he was in the right to maintain in this first part of his discourse that we deny the Churches visibility The Pretended Reform'd says he will not have the visible Church to be that which is called Jesus Christ's Body Which is then that Body where God hath established some Apostles c. Which is that Body where God hath placed several Members and different Graces the Grace of Ministry the Grace of Teaching the Grace of Exhortation and Consolation the Grace of Ruling Which I say is that Body if it be not the visible Church We never denied the visible Church upon Earth to be Christ's Body not the whole Body indeed for there is one part of it collected in Heaven and another not yet in being but still that part upon Earth is Jesus Christ's Body so the Scripture calls it and we are so far from thinking as he saies that quite contrary we prove Hypocrites and Worldlings to be really no part of the true visible Church by this very Argument that it is called in Scripture the Body of Jesus Christ For this reason the visible Church is thus defined in the 27th Article of our Confession of Faith The company of the Faithful agreeing to follow the Word of God and that pure Religion grounded thereon and who constantly make proficiency therein Now this Company of the Faithful thus described is and is called the Body of Jesus Christ If M. de Condom had been at the pains to read Calvin he would find him speaking of the visible Church in the 4th Book of his Institutions Chap. 1. thus It is no ordinary commendation the Scripture gives it when 't is said Ephes 5. 26 27. that Christ hath chosen it and separated it for his spouse to make her without spot and wrinkle his body and his fullness M. Mestrezzat speaking of the visible Church in the same sense says The instruments made use of by God to build his Church are the Pastors and Ministers of his Gospel Ephes 1. 23. according to that of St. Paul Ephes 4. He hath given some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the gathering together the Saints for the work of the Ministry for the edifying of the Body of Christ And a little after The same Body of Christ which is invisible as to the Election of God and inward sanctification of the heart enjoys the visible Ministry of the Word and from it brings forth fruit unto salvation For we must not look for the Church of God out of this visible state of the Ministry of the Word The same thing I say with relation to that other passage of St. Paul where he says Ephes 5. 25 26 27. Jesus Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word That he might present it to himself a glorious Church not having spot or wrinkle They will not have it possible says M. de Condom Conference Page 5. for this place to be understood of the visible Church not yet of the Church on Earth He must pardon me if I say he is mistaken for tho we understand by this the Church already in Heaven yet do we besides understand the visible Church upon Earth and M. Mestrezzat speaking of this passage saies expresly That St. Paul there sets forth the Church as one and the same Body receiving Grace and Glory and makes Glory to be the perfection and accomplishment of Grace It is evident then that the visible Church is in our Opinion Jesus Christ's Body or which comes all to one that the Body of Christ which is the true Church upon Earth is visible I should now conclude my Third Enquiry did I not think my self under an obligation to remove some difficulties which may be started upon it For it may be said the Ministry is common to good and bad and consequently it makes a Church composed of good men and bad I answer that the Ministry and the use of it is common both to good and bad comes to pass only by accident and from the treachery of the Enemy Of right it belongs to true Believers only and its genuine design was for them Jesus Christ gave it for the assembling of the Saints and instituted it to increase and cultivate his good Corn. If the Tares use it or to speak more truly abuse it this is contrary to his intention For his hand never sowed these but the enemy's who rose by night for that purpose It is sure then that the Ministry of it self does not make up a Church composed of good and bad men because such only as it was intended to gather are to be reckoned of his visible Church Now the Ministry is designed to gather the true Believers and truly Righteous not the worldlings and hypocrites in the least If they thrust themselves into the Assemblies it is not the Ministry that calls them but the spirit of the world that sends them thither An invincible argument that there is no other visible Church but what consists of true Believers because they are the only persons call'd to Religious Assemblies and it is not Jesus Christ but Jesus Christ's enemy that thrusts others into them To give you yet further satisfaction as to this Point permit me Sir to interpose between M. de Condom and St. Augustin not to set them at difference but endeavour to reconcile them M. de Condom assures me that Jesus Christ in that passage Tell it the Church spoke of a visible Church a Church visible by the exercise of the Ministry St. Augustin on the other side assuâ—es me that he speaks of
purify her that she may be a peculiar people zealous of good works He will build her upon himself to be an holy Temple an habitation of God through the spirit He will wrde his laws in their hearts and engrave them in their minds He will take away the heart of stone and give them an heart of flesh a new heart and a new spirit How is it possible that nothing of all this should surprise the Doctors of the Romish Communion nor stagger their confidence of finding these Promises fulfilled as well in the bad as the good the just as well as unjust For in short if wicked men who have no more than external profession become by virtue of that profession really and truly Members of the Church the Promises concern them and they have a right to them in common with others for certainly they concern as many as make up the Body of Christ Now shall we say that notwithstanding these are drowned in vice Yet the Gates of Hell shall never prevail against them provided they can but counterfeit dexterously Shall we say that tho gangrened and putrified from the crown of the head to the sole of the foot it matters not They shall be without spot or wrinkle holy and without blemish so they do but continue in an external profession Shall we say that tho they have no Faith no Justice no Piety they need not trouble themselves Jesus Christ will be with them alway by the presence of his Holy Spirit provided they can but maintain a fair outside Shall we say that although they prostitute themselves to all wickedness and villany they need not be so much concerned Jesus Christ will not fail to redeem them from all iniquity and to make of them a peculiar people zealous of good works provided they be not wanting in dissimulation Here is no invidious aggravation in all this The Promises of Christ are plain matters of fact delivered expresly in Scripture in favour of the Church The defining of the Church by a bare external profession is another plain matter of fact to be seen through all the Writers of that Communion and particularly this discourse of M. de Condom The applying these Promises to the Church thus defined is what M. de Condom stitly contends for and makes it an inducement to peoples conversion So that I do not in the least exaggerate nor do I see what reply they can make To talk of two true Churches even in Christ's sight one to which the Promises belong as such viz. That of True Believers and another to which they do not belong as such viz. That whose essence consists in the external profession besides that it would be advancing a notion contrary to Scripture and Reason which inform us but of one true Church would be to argue to no purpose for wherefore should we argue about a Church to which the Promises of Jesus Christ have no relation Why should we invest with such glorious and divine priviledges a Church to which Christ hath promised nothing at all Or what reason have we with a blind obedience to submit to a Church where it may happen that wicked men and Enemies of God may get the upper hand and the Spirit of Christ bear no Rule in it To say we ought to distinguish between two kinds of Promises one such as respect inward Sanctification and Salvation the other respecting the perpetual Visibility of the Ministry and its Infallibility in the external profession of the Truth and that the first sort are peculiar to the Elect and true Believers in the Church but the other belong to the whole Body of that Society making Profession besides that this would be to start a Division of the Promises which the Scripture divided not for all made there are made to one and the same Body to one and the same Church without distinction besides that this would be to frame Promises that never were given such as a perpetual Infallibility of the Ministry in the external Profession of the Truth as we lately saw Besides this I say it is plainly to suppose that the Church as a Church hath no promises made her of Sanctification and Salvation and so consequently 't is to oppose Scripture which makes them to her formally under the name and title of a Church The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against my Church says Christ Christ loved the Church says St. Paul and gave himself for it that he might sanctifie it and present it to himself a glorious Church having neither spot nor wrinkle nor any such thing but that it should be holy and without blemish The Lord says the Apostle nourishes and cherishes the Church all these Promises imply Sanctification and Salvation What can we then with reason say to this matter except what was said upon the foregoing Question to wit That we sometimes form an Idea of the Church by a Judgment of Charity so looking upon all external Professors in general to be true Believers and by this Judgment we include in our Notion abundance of People who really and indeed are not of the Church and consequently have no title to the Promises of Jesus Christ But this Notion is rectified by a Judgment of Reflection Exactness and Truths formed from the Idea's which Scripture and right Reason give us of the true Church restraining it to true Believers only and that the Promises of Scripture must be applyed to it in this last true exact Notion only Add to this that this true Church being intermixt with the counterfeit is not indeed so distinctly visible that we can say with certainly this or that particular man is a true Believer for this is proper to God alone but that it is however visible in a sure though indistinct manner which will go so far as to affirm That there are true Pelievers in such an external Profession Add further that this Church thus visible becomes more or less so according as Corruptions and Disorders are more or less predominant in their exteriour Society and that sometimes it is mightily celipsed partly through the prevalence of worldly superstitious and such like Persons partly through the infirmities of most true Believers but still that it never was absolutely invisible Add once more that this Church now upon Earth together with that in Heaven and that which shall spring up in succeeding Ages are all three that Vniversal Church we profess to believe in our Creed Add I say these three last Propositions to the two foregoing and so you will comprise all I have advanced hitherto you will be furnished with certain uncontestable Principles grounded upon Scripture upon Reason upon the Fathers and upon experience by the help of which you will be able with great ease to throw off all those difficulties usually started by the Romanists upon this Subject This will be further evidenced by what I am in the next place about to say Natural and necessary Consequences of the
Mr. CLAVDE's ANSWER TO Monsieur de MEAVX's BOOK INTITULED A Conference with Mr. CLAUDE WITH HIS LETTER to a FRIEND WHEREIN He Answers a Discourse of M. de Condom now Bishop of Meaux concerning the Church IMPRIMATUR Junii 18. 1687. GVIL. NEEDHAM LONDON Printed for T. Dring at the Harrow in Fleetstreet at Chancery-Lane-end MDCLXXXVII THE Author's Preface AMONG all the Points in Controversy betwixt us and the Gentlemen of the Romish Communion it is plain there is not any one wherein they think better of their Cause than this which hath been started since our Reformation Concerning the Church and yet perhaps there is not any one wherein they have less reason to think so Were this groundless confidence observed to be predominant among the Vulgar only who seldom look beyond the prejudices of their Infancy or among the busy men of intrigue in the Age who are ever raising their worldly Advantages as a Bulwark against the Truth there would be no great reason to be surprised at it But the most amazing thing of all is that we continually meet with the same Opinion in persons that want neither Understanding nor sound Sense and Judgment and which otherwise seem men of Integrity and Sincerity so that there is scarce any question to be made but that they are verily perswaded of the thing as a certain undoubted Truth Now for the undeceiving these Persons it will in my opinion be convenient not only to set their own Conceptions before them but also to go back as far as the ground and original of those Conceptions that so they themselves may plese to make such Reflexions upon them as they shall judg fit and necessary The ground then of all this mistake is that upon pretence of the Churches being a Society they immediately suffer themselves to be possest at first with an Opinion That we are to judg of it almost in the same manner that we do of a Civil Society and so never give themselves the trouble of enquiring into the differences by which these two are distinguisht from one another Hence they have fancied that the Essence of the Church consists intirely in something External and that as a man need do no more to become a true Member of a Civil Society than only live in an outward observance of the Laws so to become a true Member of the Church no more was required than barely an outward Profession of the Faith and Religion and that there was no necessity at all of any inward Virtues such as Faith Hope and Charity This is the very thing that hath made the Definitions of most of their modern Divines who place it in a meer outward Profession be entertained with Approbation and Applause And when once these Definitions are received they are under a necessity of looking upon not any one part of these Professors to be the true Church of Jesus Christ but in general the whole Body of Professors whether they be good or bad men just or unjust hypocrites or sincere Believers From hence by another unavoidable consequence they are forced to conceive of the Church not only as an exterior and visible Body but as a Body distinctly and certainly visible to such a degree I mean that a man might point out without any danger of mistake the particular men of whom it is composed as plainly and distinctly as you can point the Persons that make up any other Society and declare without the least fear of mistaking your men such and such are members of it Such a visibility of the Church as this it is that Bellarmin hath explained thus The Church is a company of Men as visible and as palpable as the Citizens of Rome the Kingdom of France or the Republick of Venice So that his meaning is that as the French the Romans and Venetians may plainly and particularly be singled out so likewise may the Persons that make the Body of the Church be as particularly and with the same degree of certainty that they were Indeed if there be nothing besides a bare outward Profession required to make men truly Members of the Church This Profession is a thing discernable by the eye in every single person and thus the Church will be visible so as that particular men may be plainly distinguished to be of it By another necessary and unavoidable Consequence they were constrained to apply all the Promises made by God to his Church whether in the Old or New Testament to this visible and exteriour Body And being these Promises include the Churches perpetuity that they might keep as close to their first Notions as they could there was a necessity of explaining the Churches subsistence in this sense That the Church must always subsist after the manner of a sensible and palpable body so as to be the object of our sight and discernable by all the World even to a plain and positive distinction of particular persons Hence it is that they have drawn their so much boasted Succession and which all their disputes run so much upon Whereby they understand a continued train of Priests one after another in the same Episcopal Sees and a continued train of people making up the same Congregations so as that both People and Priests always make profession of the same Religion without any change or alteration except it be perhaps in matters of Discipline which are things that may very well admit of a change without making the Church to differ from what it was before Then carrying these Conceptions of theirs still further they fancied that as in order to the preservation of the Civil Society an absolute Supreme Authority to which all must bend is necessary because without such a one there would be no possible means of composing differences or preventing Domestick quarrels the same was likewise necessary in the Church That in this one Supreme and Absolute Tribunal must be acknowledged upon Earth that without this and an intire obedience paid to it even in matters of Conscience Dispute would never be ended nor Unity preserved but at last things would come to such a pass that there would start up as many Churches and different Religions as Families And this gave birth to their pretentions to Infallibility and a blind implicite obedience to the determinations of Councils without presuming to examine them at all Lastly It is by all these prejudicate opinions that the Gentlemen of the Romish Communion suppose themselves able to overthrow the Protestant-Cause and make that of their own Church impregnable The pretended Reformed Church say they cannot be this exterior body always visible and palpable which must have continued in this state of visibility and that without any alteration ever since Jesus Christ and the Apostles time down to ours because this is not above a hundred or sixscore years old Therefore it is not the Church of Christ This cannot shew a continued succession of Priests and People Assemblies and Episcopal Sees nor a profession of
the perpetuity of the Church be imagined to mean a continuance of this exterior Body in the same condition without undergoing any alteration or a constant equal succession of Priests People Sees and Councils This might be admitted if all this exterior body were the true Church of Jesus Christ if that were not mixt with worldlings and wicked men who change the Church as to outward appearances or if it's Ministry were sure to be always intrusted in the hands of good men But the case being otherwise these Promises must be confined to the true Believers and the Church conceived to subsist for ever in this mixture of wicked persons and consequently that it shall subsist sometimes among the publick corruptions of the Ministry to which Almighty God sets bounds as his wisdom sees fit for the preservation of his Children We must not any longer believe a supream visible and speaking authority in the Church to be necessary for putting an end to differences and disputes nor upon this pretence allow Ecclesiastical Assemblies to be infallible or forbid the faithful to examine their determinations This might pass if the Church were I reserved as Civil Societies are by rules of humane policy or if some temporal advantages were the only thing enquired after or if the matters so determined required only an outward compliance as those in Civil Societies do But now that the Church is under a protection infinitely more effectual than all the wisdom of Man now that Salvation is the thing in question and a submission of Conscience the thing required it must be confest that since Divine Revelation ceased there is no further need of any other supreme infallible Authority besides that of the Scripture which is the Churches Law its Oracle and perpetual Rule a Rule plain and clear in what it expresses in all things necessary to be believed plain and clear in its silence with relation to other things not necessary to be believed It must be owned that since God does not call men to Ministerial functions immediately and by himself it may happen that these Functions may generally be exercised by Reprobates and to suppose that such people as these who can challenge no share in God's Promises to his Church are infallible would be the most palpable absurdity in the World We must acknowledg that since it is so uncertain whether the men that make up these Assemblies are themselves really of Jesus Christ's Church it would be not only rash but wicked to receive their Decrees implicitly and submit to them without any Examination at all because this were really to put our Salvation upon the venture which ought to be infinitely dearer to us than any thing in the World and which if once lost can never be made amends for again Lastly we must not upon these pretended Principles take up Prejudices against the Protestant Churches nor tax them with Novelty because they are not united to this visible exterior Body which was before the Reformation or because they do not shew that uniform succession of Sees and Councils and the profession of the same Religion without any alteration at all and every thing as was practised before nor pretend they have subverted a Tribunal necessary for the subsistence of the true Church because they refuse to acknowledg the Church of Rome's Authority and to comply with her determinations These several charges upon us might be tolerably well laid if a man could assert that the Church consists of all this exterior body as it might be asserted if a Civil Society were the matter in question But being that body must be distinguished into two parts the one consisting of good the other of ill men the one of good Corn the other of Tares the Protestant Church cannot be called new if it only oppose this latter part which had gotten possession of all the outward advantages to wit the Ministry the Sees the Churches the Councils the Schools and in one word the Exterior Profession and which had changed and corrupted all these For is there any necessity that a Church should groan under the same oppression in order to being the same with a Church that was before Is there a necessity of lying under the Tares that choak'd and encompassed the Corn in order to being of the Corn And are not men the same Children of Jacob without being among the same strangers among whom that Family hath been The Protestants have not one jot the less really and truly a succession of Sees of Councils and the profession of Religion for not having that part of them which was earthly and unclean I acknowledg they have given quite another aspect and appearance to the House of God by this cleansing but still there is the same Ministry the same Sees the same Assemblies the same Profession not with respect to the corruptions that appeared in them but in regard of the Christian Order which still continued under all this filth and nastiness The vessels of the Temple are still the same only they are washed made clean and restored to their natural use And as for that pretended Tribunal of the Romish Church which the Reformation has subverted it never having any more foundation than what was imaginary and merely humane there is no reason to complain of the Protestants for not submitting to it because they would thereby have done wrong to that of the Scripture which is Jesus Christ's true Tribunal fixed and to continue for ever in the midst of his people But this shewing the many differences between the Church and Civil Societies is not the only method of confuting these Gentlemen's Principles Take which way you will their falsity and weakness is easily discovered and they are likewise attended with this inconvenience that as soon as one of them is overthrown all the rest fall with it Overthrow for instance but that one principle that the true Church must be an exterior visible Body even to the pointing out of the particular persons whereof it is composed and at the same time you overthrow all those definitions they give of it which include bad men as well as good and make reprobates to be no less members than the Elect you overthrow their application of God's Promises to this whole Body you overthrow its perpetuity in this Condition by virtue of those Promises you overthrow the necessity of this pretended external Succession upon which they lay such mighty stress you evacuate the supreme Authority and Infallibility of Church Assemblies and the blind obedience required to their determinations The case is the same with all their other principles particularly which must of necessity either all stand or all fall together I might truly say that you can no where observe a Systeme more effectually destroyed in the several parts of it than this is in the Book now published by me For there is not any one of the propositions that help to make that Systeme but I have confuted it substantially by Arguments that
amount even to a Demonstration Which way can any one maintain that Definition of the Church which goes upon a bare outward profession and makes it consist of bad as well as good men and which Stapleton Bellarmin Cardinal du Perron and some other Controversial Divines look upon as a principal point after having observed what I have written on this subject in the second question of the Letter to my Friend and the Examination of M. de Meaux's ninth Reflection What pretence can men have for carrying on the Churches visibility so far as to a plain particular and constant designation of mens persons that help to make up that Body after having considered what is said to this purpose in my Third Question and in the Examination of M. de Meaux's Eleventh Reflection How can men fancy that Jesus Christ's Promises belong to this exterior Body composed of good and bad men promiscuously after what I have written to this purpose upon the fourth Question and the Examination of the Twelfth Reflection Which way can the External Succession be defended in the sense these Gentlemen understand it after having weighed my answer to the Second Part of M. de Condom 's Discourse and compared it with my Examination of the Eighth and Thirteenth Reflection What can be sâ—â—d in behalf of the Supreme Authority Church Assemblies pretend to and the ready Obedience to them without any trying their decisions which these Gentlemen would make us believe ought to be paid them after having compared the Relation of our Conference with what I have written on the Six first Reflections I must confess the strength of my Reasons may possibly receive some disadvantage from the manner of my delivering them and that it required a more skilful hand than mine which might have spoke with all the elegance and address of my renowned Adversary But yet I dare aver that even in my plain way and in the midst of all my bluntness there will be found enough to satisfy and convince my Readers That the Systeme treated of is upon many accounts quite destroyed both as to the whole and as to each of its parts I am sensible this Systeme is a thing contrived with abundance of cunning and skill that it was never the invention of one single Brain that they have made it look as specious as the thing could possibly bear But all the skill and cunning in the World can never give a thing so great a lustre as Truth and it is plain that That Systeme can never be true which is repugnant to the evidence both of Scripture and Reason I may add too that notwithstanding all the pains taken to contrive it as strong as might be they are forced to leave it with many weaknesses which it was impossible for them to conceal Nay such a Systeme particularly is This which contradicts experience and contradicts it so far too that were the Church of Rome it self for whose advantage it was first establish'd to be tryed by these Principles that compose it she could not make her party good Let us if you please venture an experiment upon that principle which asserts the perpetuity of the same Exterior Body Will you take the confidence to call that of the three first Ages the same Body with the modern Church of Rome where there is not the least tittle to be found of direct Invocation of Saints and Angels in the publick service of the Church where there is not the least addressing to Images and Pictures in their worship where there is no prohibition of the Cup to the Laity nor of the use of Scripture in the vulgar Tongue without leave granted by the Ordinary nor of Praying in a Language which the people do not understand where we find nothing to the contrary but that the Scripture is the only and the sufficient Rule of Faith in all things necessary to Salvation where we meet with no such number of Sacraments as seven no use made of Papal Indulgences no necessity of Auricular Confession no Elevation of the Host that the people may prostrate themselves in adoration to it no Transubstantiation nor Real presence made Doctrines no mention of the Church of Rome's being the Mother and Mistress of all other Churches nor of I know not how many things besides which are of very considerable importance Will you call the Church of Rome as it stands at this day as it looks upon the opinion of the Mâ—llenaries to be erroneous as it prohibits giving the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper to little Children as it believes the beatifick vision of God antecedent to the last Judgment as it forbids the Clergy to Marry will you call this I say the same Exterior Body with the Primitive Church which believed and practised directly the contrary To call this the same Body is like Theseus his Ship which was always called the same Ship tho there was scarce a Plank in it all that had not been changed A Second experiment may be made in that Principle which relates to the Succession in Episcopal Sees as these Gentlemen are pleased to understand it For how can they ever maintain this Succession in the See of Rome which they look upon as the very Original and Centre of Church-Unity while they agree as they do that many of those Popes were intruders against all Law and Custom and consequently false Popes such as Baronius calls Violent seizers of the Apostolick See unlawful Vsurpers of the Papal Name and Chair False Popes which only served to make the times they lived in notorious And now seeing this intrusion continued for almost one whole Age and the call to all Ecclesiastical Functions depends upon the See of Rome what must we think of those which proceeded from these false Popes and those that followed after them How can they make good this Succession in the person of Vigilius who by their own confession was an Usurper of the See over Sylverius and a Schismatick excommunicated he and all his party that adhered to him by Sylverius the rightful Pope Which adherents were not only all the Clergy of Rome but all the Archbishops and Bishops of the Empire excepting only four Bishops that were banisht with Sylverius and joyned with him in signing the sentence of Excommunication Sylverius dyed Vigilius kept the Papacy still and yet the Excommunication was not taken off It is acknowledged to be a just and valid sentence and yet from these excommunicated persons are all the Popes Patriarchs Primates Archbishops and Bishops descended ever since Baronius in the relation of this Accident endeavours all he can to deprive us of the Conclusions we draw from it He tells us therefore that he guesses Vigilius acted a part all that while and that being informed of Sylverius his death he of his own accord resigned the Popedom usurped by him before and at the same time got the Clergy of Rome to chuse him into it again This conjecture he grounds upon four
abilities besides that we must bring along with us not only charitable but reverent and respectful thoughts of such Assemblies and judg favourably of them till we have manifest conviction of the contrary Besides all this I say the ignorant sort of people must not be too rash in offering to interpose their judgments about matters which either are not plainly exprest in Scripture or naturally and necessarily deduced from thence They must satisfie themselves with using these two ways The Scriptures being silent And the clear and plain instructions to be met with there From its being silent they must learn to reject what it does not teach for strange and novel Doctrines For whatever is not in Scripture is not of Divine Revelation and nothing that is not revealed by God can be the object of Faith By the clear and plain Instructions to be met with there they must learn to embrace the Doctrines necessary for Salvation and to reject all things contrary to the same as dangerous and destructive Errors And this is sufficient for the more ignorant sort of people As for other particulars for which no certain rule can be given neither from the Scriptures being silent nor from the plain and clear instructions contained in it nor by natural inferences deduced from thence before they either receive them or condemn them they must endeavour to get information by such means as God hath discovered and established in his Church and in the mean time entertain a good opinion of the Assemblies determinations Thus they will preserve their Faith incorrupt and sufficient for Salvation they will pay to Assemblies their due respects and keep themselves in the peace and unity of the Church If the Gentlemen of the Romish Communion are not content with this but still would have us believe whatever such Assemblies may determine blindfold we must beg of them to consider That to exclude thus all manner of amendment is to open a mighty inlet to Error and Superstition 't is an exposing believers to a manifest danger of having their Faith corrupted and themselves damned in a word 't is perfectly to ruine Christianity unless the goodness of God interpose with some remedy Will not these Gentlemen who are so ready at exclaiming against the inconveniencies that may possibly proceed from our principle at last open their eyes and take a view of what their own hath actually produced already Transubstantiation Purgatory Indulgences Merit of Good-works worshipping of Images and Relicks Service in an unknown Tongue and a thousand other devotions which have no great appearance of wisdom in them These are the products of their pretended Infallibility and all this they are forced to defend now because they would not lose the point of an implicit obedience And now if I were speaking any thing here concerning the occasion of this dispute between the Bishop of Meaux and me or the Circumstances that went before or followed after our Conference the world will easily perceive I do it because this Bishop hath already been at the trouble of giving the publick a sufficient account of them One word only I must say which respects one of our Auditors Mr. Cotton who no doubt would have received a better Character from M. de Meaux had he been so happy as to be known to him more particularly Mr. Cotton is a Gentleman of great honour and wants neither apprehension nor judgment he understands his Religion and though dispute be no part of his business is well versed in the main Controversies between us If his modesty or some other considerations prevailed upon him to say something that lookt like declining to engage in dispute with M. de Meaux I do not think he ought to have taken his words in their strict and literal sense As for the difference between our two Relations I leave it as M. de Meaux hath done to the Reader 's judgment He hath observed very wisely that let him say what he would of me it was in my power to say the same of him That all our Auditors were interested on one side or other and that the world hath nothing at all to do with our proceedings To all which let me add that I will not give any occasion for any private quarrel with a person I honour to that degree that I do M. de Meaux The only thing I need say more is concerning the method I have observed in this Book It is divided into Two Parts The first contains an Answer to the Instruction given Mademoiselle de Duras by this Bishop the day before our Conference together with an Examination of his Reflexions upon that Answer beginning at the ninth and going on to the thirteenth inclusively The second part contains a Relation of what past in our Conference with an Examination of M. de Meaux's Reflexions thereupon which are his eight first This method in my opinion is very natural And now as I have made it my business to be very exact and past nothing in his whole Book over without giving a direct Answer to it so I hope that when he shall think fit to set Pen to Paper against me next he will be as exact and apply himself as close to the pinch of the Question and not imagine as men commonly do that provided they can but pick up here and there some loose passages and from thence start a few difficulties and objections there need no more be done and this must go for a full Answer I beseech God to shed forth his Blessing upon an undertaking wherein the only Ends I proposed to my self were his Glory and the Illustration of the Truth Thus much I am encouraged to hope from his mercy and that as he hath hitherto preserved his little Ship the Church in the midst of the billows and storms of the world he will still continue to preserve her as he hath promised even to the end of the world AN ADVERTISEMENT FROM THE TRANSLATOR TO THE READER WHEN persons of M. de Meaux's and Mr. Claude's Character engage and in a Controversy so important too as that between the Church of Rome and those who have separated from her Men must naturally be desirous to know the management and issue of such a debate For besides what expectations the reputation of their Learning and Judgment might raise This is a Cause that scarce any body in our part of the World can be supposed perfectly indifferent in Every Reader must look on These not only as Disputants but Advocates and even they who design no more than the gratifying their curiosity by perusing such Conferences do yet insensibly find themselves affected with some degree of Concern The particular Argument insisted upon here is likewise of the highest consequence for it cannot but be a mighty help and direction to know exactly how far we are obliged to comply with the Churches Decisions in matters of Faith In what Cases we may venture to depend upon our own Collections from Reason and
the curiosity you have to see what I wrote upon the same subject the next day after our Interview M. de Condom having profest it was not his desire that what past between him and me should be publickly talked of I thought my self under an obligation to confine what I had written to my own Study And this hath been hitherto very punctually observed by me But now since he hath thought fit to give out Copies of his I have reason to believe that in this respect he leaves me perfectly to my liberty and is well satisfied I should do the same thing with mine I have too great an opinion of M. de Condom's Wisdom not to follow his Example in this particular and I promise my self from his Equity that he will not find fault with me for treading in his steps But because he hath been pleased to impart to us that Discourse also which he had with Mademoiselle de Duâ—as in private the day before our Conference you will think it convenient that before I transcribe my Relation I should first make some reflections upon That Were this a discourse of such a nature as common occasions or accidents are used to produce where a man speaks without preparation or design and delivers himself with all the freedom imaginable I confess it were unjust to examine it strictly and by rule But seeing this was composed by M. de Condom with a prospect of obliging Mademoiselle de Duras to change her Religion and which seems a studied piece a Discourse which he hath joyned to the account of our Conference as a considerable part of what past in this matter Lastly a Discourse committed to Writing upon supposal that it may be useful to others and for that purpose made in some measure publick I cannot forbear looking upon it as a work of premeditation and returning some answer to it accordingly Besides that you and I are concerned as to what Mademoiselle de Duras hath done to desire to know whether she had sufficient reasons to forsake your Communion and embrace the Romish and the examination of this Discourse will be a very proper means of clearing that point to us Now it may be reduced to two principal Parts In the first M. de Condom makes it his business to shew that the Catholick or Universal Church which we profess to believe in the Creed is a Church thus defined A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word Whence he infers That it is a visible Society He pretends also to make it appear that to this Church thus defin'd belong all the promises found in Scripture In the Second He labours to answer an Objection drawn from what happened to the Church of Israel heretofore in which we often see the true Worship of God to have been changed and corrupted and both the People and their Guides to have fallen into Idolatry These two Parts Sir we will prosecute in order and by applying our selves to what is most material in them will endeavour by the assistance of God's Grace to make the Truth so evident as shall remove all difficulties The first Part of M. de Condom's discourse examin'd Instead of granting the Ministers says M. de Condom to believe all the Fundamentals of the Faith we shew that there is one Article of the Creed they believe not which is that of the Universal Church 'T is true they say with the mouth I believe the Catholick or Universal Church as the Arrians Macedonians and Socinians say with the mouth I believe in Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost But as there is reason to accuse them of not believing these Articles because they believe them not as they ought nor according to their true sense so if we shew the Pretended Reformed that they believe not as they ought the Article of the Catholick Church we may truly say that in effect they reject so important an Article of the Creed You must know then what is meant by this expression The Catholick or Universal Church and upon this I lay for my ground That in the Creed which was only a bare declaration of Faith this Term must be taken in its most proper and most natural signification and such as is most used among Christians Now all Christians by the name of the Church understand a Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his Word If this Society makes this Profession 't is consequently visible That this is the proper and genuine signification of the word Church such as is known by every one and used in common discourse I desire no other witnesses than the Pretended Reformed themselves The sequel will declare whether the scandal of dealing with that Article of the Universal Church as the Arrians Macedonians and Socinians do would not better agree with the Character of such as follow M. de Condom's Opinion than the Reformed Ministers This we shall presently be able to judge of and to that purpose four Questions must be examined The first is Whether the sense of that Article in our Creed ought to be restrained according to M. de Condom to the Church here on Earth or extended farther Secondly Whether this be a good and sufficient definition of the Church upon Earth A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word Thirdly Whether this Church upon Earth be visible or invisible or whether it be both considered in a different sense and different respects Fourthly To what Church the Promises of Jesus Christ do belong whether to that defined by M. de Condom or to that which we are about to define These four Questions will include not only all the plausible things M. de Condom hath said in this first part of his Discourse but likewise all the other sophistical Objections that are usually put to us upon this subject Quest 1. Whether the sense of that Article in our Creed ought to be restrained according to M. de Condom to the Church here on Earth or extended farther In order to resolving the first Question you will please Sir to give me leave to explain briefly that Article of our Creed concerning the Catholick or Universal Church and how we understand it that so you may be able to judge whether M. de Condom had reason to accuse us of not taking it in its true sense And this I shall immediately enter upon We think then this being such a profession of Faith as ought to embrace its object entire and in the utmost extent and not in any one part only that by the Vniversal Church must be understood not barely the visible body or company of the Faithful at present upon Earth but that body or company of all the Faithful which have been are or at any time shall be from the beginning to the end of the World Thus the Universal Church is That which is already
triumphant in Heaven that which is now militant on Earth and that which is not yet in the world but shall be in succeeding Ages All these three Churches do really make but one because united together in the eternal purpose of God appointed to know one and the same Word to partake of one and the same Spirit and to inherit one and the same Glory They are but one Family for they have the same Father the same Rights and Priviledges the same Hopes and are called to the same Duties They are but one body under the protection and Guidance of Jesus Christ their only Head who is as the Scripture says The same yesterday to day and for ever And this is our sense of the Church called in the Creed Catholick or Universal The Latitude we here take the Church in hath displeased M. de Condom he says we put a wrong sense upon the Article and to understand it thus is in effect to reject it He is of opinion it should be confined to this part upon Earth which he defines A Society making profession to believe c. But in the first place M. de Condom must allow us to tell him that Saint Augustine however hath taught us to explain the Church in our Creed after this manner That Father indeed went farther than we do for he hath not scrupled to include in this notion the Angels confirmed in Grace Here says he and 't is in his very Exposition of the Creed that he says it we must take the Church whole and entire not only for that part of it upon earth which praises the name of God from the rising of the Sun unto the going down thereof singing to God a new Song since their deliverance from their former Captivity but also for that other part which is in Heaven and never was separated from the Divine presence the Blessed and Holy Angels The Body of Christ says he in another place is the Church not this or that Church but which is diffused over the whole world not that which is made up of men now alive but consisting of those which have been before us and those which shall come after us even to the end of the world For the whole Church being composed of all the Faithful in as much as all the Faithful are the Members of Jesus Christ 〈◊〉 Jesus Christ for its Head and this Head though exalted high in the Heavens does notwithstanding still continue to govern his body M. de Condom must likewise allow us to tell him that the Catechism of the Council of Trent hath given this sense of the Church in our Creed The Church it says and 't is in the very Explication of this Article hath two parts one of which is called Triumphant the other Militant The Triumphant is that illustrious assembly of the Blessed and all those who have vanquished and triumph'd over the World the Flesh and the Devil and who being now delivered from the miseries of this life enjoy everlasting rest and felicity The Church Militant is the company of all the Faithful yet alive upon earth which is therefore called Militant because they are engaged in a perpetual war with these most deadly enemies Satan the World and the Flesh Yet must we not from hence imagine that they are two distinct Churches but as was said two parts of one and the same Church one of which is gone before and already possest of its Heavenly Country The other daily following after till at length being united with our Saviour it shall rest above in Eternal happiness Again We must desire M. de Condom's leave to say that the very Title of Catholick or Vniversal used in the Creed does lead us to this extended notion of the Church This to me seems evident for two reasons First that this Title is given the Church to distinguish it from all false Churches which do neither exist always nor every where but spring up and die away in some particular places and at some certain times as having no sound nor lasting principle Secondly that this Title was to distinguish it from particular Churches which are but members of this great Body collected by Christ and separated from the world that he might sanctifie it to himself Whence it follows that when we say the Vniversal or Catholick Church by this is plainly meant the Church intire and at large without exception or limitation either as to time or place Lastly M. de Condom must allow us to tell him that we are brought to this notion by what follows in the Creed The Communion of Saints which terms explain this of the Catholick Church For the Saints are not only persons now living upon Earth but those also that reign in Heaven and those which shall be to the worlds end and 't is with all these that we are in Communion If the Communion of Saints were to be understood of such only as make profession to believe in Jesus Christ and govern themselves by his word This could be no other than an external Communion by living under the same Ministry and partaking of the same Sacraments which good and bad men enjoy equally And certainly this would fall far short of so great so Majestick an expression and consequently could not deserve a room in our Creed But says M. de Condom in the Creed which was only a bare declaration of faith this term must be taken in its most proper and most natural signification and such as is most used among Christians I own it must be taken in its most proper and most natural sense but even this supplies us with a fresh argument against him it being certain that the most proper and most natural sense is to take the Vniversal Church for the company of all those that are truly the faithful separated from the world by the Word and Holy Spirit of God according to the purpose of his Election from the beginning to the end of all things I acknowledg the word Church when used in a Civil sense as for instance when spoken of the people of Israel does most properly signifie an external and visible company and so far I am of M. de Condom's mind both as to what he urges out of the Acts and from the Septuagint Translation But still I assert that this word when applied to a Christian Society does not properly denote a visible Congregation or an outward profession of the Faith and no more but chiefly an inward calling a spiritual communion and such as that outward is only a consequence of and does depend upon A man must be utterly ignorant of Christianity to deny this truth The Church then is a name for something within and not barely to signifie what passes without so that implying an inward communion when the Title of Vniversal is put to it it must needs mean the whole body of true and faithful Christians By the same reason I affirm this to be its most natural
of the Church The Church is the Body of Jesus Christ according to that of the Apostle for His body the Church whence it is evident that such as are not accounted his Members cannot obtain Salvation Now the Members of Jesus Christ are united by Love both to one another and to him their Head A little further answering the Donatists Cavils against the Catholicks for having persecuted them for having burnt their Bibles for having sacrificed to Idols I return the same answer says he which I have often done already That what you say either is not true or if it be it concerns not Christ's good Corn but the Chaff The Church does not perish for this which shall be throughly purged from these men at the last exact judgment I enquire after the true Church That is where she is that hears the words of Jesus Christ and does them that builds upon a Rock that thus hearing and doing does yet bear with those that hear and do not and so build upon the Sand. I enquire where the Corn is which must grow among Tares till the Harvest Matt. 13. not what the Tares have done or do I enquire where Christ's Well-beloved is she who is among the wicked Daughters as the Lily among Thorns Cant. 2. not what the Thorns have done or now do I enquire where the good Fish are Matt. 13. which till they are drawn to shore must be content to lye in the same Net with bad ones not what the bad Fish have done or now do Afterwards again Seeing both good and bad administer and receive the Sacrament of Baptism and the good only are spiritually regenerated become his true Members and make up the building of Christ's Body 't is plain that Church consists of the good only to which it was said As the lily among thorns so is my beloved among the daughters Cant. 2. For it consists of those that build upon a Rock that is that hear the Word of God and do it For this Reason when St. Peter acknowledged Jesus to be the Christ the Son of God he said unto him Matt. 16. And upon this Rock will I build my Church This is not therefore those who build upon the Sand i. e. they that hear Christ's Words and do them not For the same Christ hath said Matt. 7. He that heareth my words and doth them I will liken him to a wise man that built his house upon a rock And a little before the end of the Book There are many who communicate with the Church in the Sacraments yet are not in the Church Else if when one is excommunicated visibly he be then only separated from the Church when he is restored to the Communion we must say that he is actually stated in the Church again But suppose his return be hypocritical That he bring a heart inveterate against the Truth and the Church must we own that such a one is perfectly reconciled and become a true member of Jesus Christ because the outward formalities of receiving him in have past upon him God forbid As therefore he is not really of the Church tho readmitted into the Communion so if before Excommunication he had a Soul at enmity with the Truth he was in truth separated even then And thus it is that the good and I bad seed grow together in the same common Field until Harvest that is the Children of the Kingdom and the Children of the wicked one If after all this M. de Condom shall still maintain that an outward profession and participation of the Sacraments are sufficient to make men members of the Church we may take the confidence to tell him that his Authority is not yet advanced so far with us as to be reckon'd of equal weight with St. Augustin's In his Book against Cresconiâ—s Good and bad men he says may baptize but God alone who is eternally good can purifie the conscience The wicked are condemned of Christ without the Churches knowledg as having an evil and a polluted conscience and are not even now in Christ's body the Church For Christ cannot have such for his members as are condemned and therefore they Baptize even while they are out of the Church themselves God forbid such monsters should be reckoned among the members of the only Dove God forbid such should enter into the inclosed garden whose keeper can never be imposed upon In like manner does this holy Father speak in his Book of the Christian Doctrine Tichonius the Donatist haveing busied himself in laying down some Rules for the understanding of Scripture St. Augustine takes them into examination and this is what he says to the second of them His second Rule concerns the twofold Body of Christ that is an improper term for in reality none are his body who shall not continue with him for ever He should rather have exprest it concerning our Lords true or mixt body or true and counterfeit or some such like term For though hypocrites seem to be of the Church they are so far from being with him to all eternity that they are really not with him now He might then be allowed to lay down this Rule but he should have phrased it concerning the mixt Church And afterwards Tichonius his seventh and last Rule is concerning the Devil and his body For the Devil is the head of the wicked and they in some sort his members appointed to undergo with him the punishment of everlasting fire as Christ is the head of the Church which is his body and appointed to eternal glory with him As therefore in the first Rule entituled Of the Lord and his body when the Scripture speaks of one and the same person we must distinguish carefully what belongs to the Head and what to the Body so as to this last Rule we shall find things spoken of the Devil which do not so much belong to Him and his Body Now that Body of his is composed not only of such as are visibly without but those also who though in truth they belong to him yet continue for a time mixed with the Church I make no doubt but so many passages of St. Augustine together with those other proofs I instanced in before for the resolving this question may make M. de Condom a little uneasie though he think never so well of his own principle But in short it concerns not only this Bishop but all others that take this dispute into consideration to know once for all what mighty difficulties they must overcome before they can establish the pretended Authority of their Church That is to say in one word it is fit they know that in order to compass this design they must triumph over Scripture triumph over Reason triumph over the Fathers but above all they must declare open war with St. Austin particularly The Throne of Rome's Hierarchy is never capable of being set up but upon these foundations or to speak more properly upon
of Jesus Christ ceases to be visible but he would not be well-pleased for that reason to be taxed with saying he ceases to be there at all But however let M. de Condom put what sense he please upon our words it is certain we acknowledg the Church to be perpetually visible in the meaning I explain'd just now And M. de Condom could never have spent his time to less purpose than in taking such pains to confute an opinion which we never held against him Quest 4. What Church the Promises of Jesus Christ belong to whether that defined by M. de Condom a Society making profession to believe c. or that which we define A Society which making profession to govern it self by Christ's Word does really govern it self by it M. de Condom speaking of us in one place of his Discourse says They have not the Consolation which the Catholicks have to see Jesus Christ's promise visibly accomplisht and maintain'd during so many Ages They cannot shew a Church which has ever been since Jesus Christ came to build it on the Rock and to save his word they are obliged to have recourse to a Church of the Predestinate which neither themselves nor any else can shew After having cleared the perpetual visibility of the Church as you lately saw judg you Sir what ground there is for his sayings we have not the consolation of seeing Jesus Christ's Promise visibly accomplish'd and maintain'd during so many Ages and whether we have not more than it is possible to have according to the Church of Romes principle M. de Condom according to his Principle sees the duration of a Church whose whole essence consists in an outward profession What is there in this more than human We see the duration of a Church whose essence consists in true Faith and Regeneration What is there in this that is not all Divine M. de Condom sees the duration of a Church supported by politick methods by paying a blind obedience to the injunctions of great men and those perhaps Hypocrites too What is there in this more than human We see the duration of a Church preserved in spight of confusion and all the froward malice of men What is there in this less than Divine They cannot says he shew a Church which hath ever been since Jesus Christ came to build it on the Rock Yes we shew this Church built on the Rock for when we shew the Body in which God nourishes and breeds up his true Believers we shew at the same time those true Believers which are his Church built on the Rock tho mixt with such as build on the Sand. When we shew the held where Jesus Christ sowed his good Seed we shew the Wheat tho there be Tares among it But let M. de Condom tell us if he think fit how he can shew us a Church built on the Rock making as he does the essence of the Church to consist entirely in an outward profession If he call this a Church upon the Rock Jesus Christ himself will reply for that such only are built upon a Rock who hear this word and do it whereas all besides are built upon the Sand. To save Christ's Word continues he they are obliged to have recourse to a Church of the Predestinate Does M. de Condom blame us for seeking the accomplishment of Jesus Christ's Promises in the body of his Elect and true Believers Pray where should we look for it else In a croud of Hypocrites and Reprobates that have no Faith no Holiness no Piety but in outward appearance only Such as God never call'd and Jesus Christ shall one day tell he never knew them Is not this of Cardinal Bellarmin's Perron's and M. de Condoms a curious Church to the constituting whereof no inward virtue is necessarily required but merely an outward profession of Faith and communicating in the Sacraments A Church whose Unity the formal essence of it is that of an external Vocation not that of Predestination nor internal Faith nor a Vnion of Souls by the works of Love In a word a Church defined not by believing and governing it self by God's word but by making profession to believe and govern it self by God's VVord Is not this putting a mighty value upon Jesus Christ's Promises to apply them not only to profane and worldly men as well as the Saints and regenerate but to such a Church as would remain entire tho there were no true believers nor righteous men in it and not cease to be the true Church of Christ tho it were composed of Hypocrites and none else Thus far Sir there is no great perspicacity required to discern that the question in hand resolves it self there being little probability that Jesus Christ was so lavish of his Promises But however let us examine the matter a little more closely The first passage M. de Condom presents us with is that of St. Paul Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it that he might cleanse it with the washing of Water by the Word that he might make it a glorious Church having neither spot nor wrinkle nor any such thing but that it might be holy and without blemish And a little after No man hateth his own flesh but nourisheth and cherisheth it even as the Lord the Church For we are members of his body of his flesh and of his bones We see in these words the obligation Jesus Christ put himself under to sanctify his Church to make it a glorious Church without spot or wrinkle holy and without blemish to nourish and cherish it as his own flesh and bones Our business is to know whether this obligation can upon any pretence whatever respect Hypocrites and wicked men And who will be perswaded it does This Church M. do Condom says is glorious because she glorifies God because she declares to all the Earth the Glory of Jesus Christ's Gospel and Cross Now as to the wicked of whom we are here treating there need but this one word be added That they glorify God and the Gospel in hypocrisy and dissimulation but in their hearts deny it Then see what God himself hath spoken as to this matter Vnto the ungodly said God why dost thou preach my laws and takest my Covenant in thy mouth This Church M. de Condom tells us is holy because she always constantly and without varying teaches the Holy Doctrine Add here But as for the wicked if they teach the holy Doctrine this is but with their lips and in shew only then see what St. Paul says They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof from such turn away This Church according to M. de Condom hath neither spot nor wrinkle because she hath neither any evil Error nor any evil Maxim and because she instructs and contains in her bosom the Elect of God Add But as for sinners They follow Truth and Right only in pretence Then see what
Jesus Christ says of such Many will say unto me in that day Lord have not we prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out Devils and in thy name have done many wonderful works Then will I say unto them I never knew you depart from me ye workers of iniquity And can any man after all this allow them a propriety in the Promises of Christ The second passage M. de Condom makes use of is that of Jesus Christ which I will here set down at length Tell the Church but if he neglect to hear the Church let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a Publican verily I say unto you whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven Again I say unto you that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask it shall be done for them of my father which is in heaven For where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them Jesus Christ M. de Condom says used the word Church to signify this visible Society I agree with him that the Church there signifies a visible Church I say further that it signifies a Church represented by the Pastors by whom it binds and looses by whom it asks the Father I am still of opinion that those excellent Promises of Jesus Christ that God will ratify what they have bound and loosed that he will grant what they ask and that the Lord himself will be in the midst of them are all made to the Church taken in this sense But then I say withal that this visible Church is that of the true Believers only and that Hypocrites have no share at all in it It is to the true Believers alone that this Ministry belongs they are the persons represented by the Pastors they the only people that ask and obtain that are gathered together in Christ's name and in the midst of whem he is And yet it often happens that the Ministers of this Church tho they be in this function and do the business of it are not yet true Members of it themselves It often falls out says St. Augustin by reason of this mixture here upon Earth that people really belonging to Babylon administer the things belonging to Jerusalem All they of whom it is said whatsoever they bid you observe obesereveand do Matt. 23. 3. but do not ye after their works are Citizens of Babylon that rule the Commonwealth of Jerusalem For if they had no charge belonging to Jerusalem why should it be said They sit in Moses seat therefore what they bid you observe that observe and do Again if they were true Citizens of Jerusalem who should reign with Christ for ever What occasion was there for adding But do not ye after their works It is not then to the Ministers that the Promises belong but to the Body they represent and whose Offices they discharge Now this body is the New Jerusalem which shall reign with Christ for ever That is the true Believers M. de Cendom's third passage is this Thou art Peter and upon this rock will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it Jesus Christ says he would shew something illustrious and clear when he said that his Church maugre the opposition of Hell should be always invincible he would I say shew something clear and resplendent which might serve in all Ages for a sensible and palpable assurance of the immutable certainty of his Promises He adds The Church of which Christ speaks is then a confessing Church a Church that publishes the Faith and consequently an exteriour and visible Church He says further That it is a Church to which an exteriour Ministry is given for 't is added I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven and whatsoever thou shalt loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven I answer The Church spoken of in this passage is really a Confessing Church a Church that publishes the Faith a Church to whom Christ hath given an exteriour Ministry a Church that uses the Ministry of the Keys that binds and looses and by Consequence an exteriour and visible Church The Question is whether wicked men let them dissemble never so well and carry never so fair an outside do truly belong to this Church or whether it consist of sincere Believers only 'T is a Church exteriour and visible I acknowledg it but it is also a Church interiour and real otherwise it would differ nothing from a Phantome a cheating apparition 'T is a Confessing Church and publishes the Faith but it is likewise a Church believing in what it confesses and publishes 'T is a Church to which not only St. Peter's Confession must be attributed but also the principle and ground of that Confession Blessed art thou Simon Bar-jona for flesh and blood hath net revealed this unto thee but my Father which is in Heaven And therefore whose Confession proceeds not from Flesh and Blood but from Grace and Divine Illumination 'T is a Church built upon a Rock and not upon the Sand therefore not a Church that Hypocrites are of 'T is a Church built by Jesus Christ a Church therefore of true Believers only because such only are built by Christ 'T is a Church to which this Promise of the Gates of Hell never prevailing against it belongs And can we with any pretence to modesty say that the Gates of Hell do not prevail against the wicked ingulfed in vâ—ce Can we say those admirable words carry no stronger importance than the preservation of a mere exteriour profession But this is a Chruch which hath and exerciseth such a Ministry Who questions it But does this Ministry belong to the wicked and hypocrites No. It belongs only to true Behevers the rest have no part in it only as they sometimes exercise the external Offices without any true right to them or receive them unworthily under the covering of hypocrisy and being intermixt with good Christians But M. de Condom says further Jesus Christ promised something illustrious and clear which might serve in all Ages for a sensible and palpable assurance of the immutable certainty of his Promises These words want a little unfolding If they understand hereby a temporal prosperity a perpetual visibility promised to the Church in pomp and lustre I deny that Christ promised any such thing If they understand an Earthly Dominion a worldly Greatness under the title of Hierarchy I deny still that Christ ever promised any such thing If they understand a constant unblemisht purity in the Ministry in the Matters of Doctrine and Worship of moral Rules and orderly Government This again I deny that Christ ever promised If they understand Believers perseverance in Faith and Holiness so far forth as
Churchmen the Pulpits more zealous for Tales and Legends than the Word of God The Schools busying themselves with ridiculous Questions and Curiosities the Sacraments burdened with strange Ceremonies the instruction and edification of mens Souls wretchedly neglected and in a word the Gospel liberty changed into a temporal slavery This is what we mean by the state of the Church being interrupted this the ruine and desolation we bewail The Church hath not ceased to exist nor did she perfectly lose her visibility or her Ministry God forbid But both she and her Ministry have seen the natural state they ought to continue in changed and interrupted VIII Apply these principles now to our Reformation and then Sir you will discern that granting this supposition to be true that the Body of the Prelates invested in the ministry of the Church in our Fathers days and assembled in the Trent Council supposing I say that they delivered such determinations in points of Faith as are incompatible with Salvation Granting it to be true that they took away Christian Liberty by Anathematizing all who should refuse to believe and submit to those determinations as they did and by adding to all this violence and compulsion our Fathers had reason to look upon them as Ministers that had justly deprived themselves of all right to exercise their Ministry over them by such ill conduct and to give that power of the Ministry to others They had reason to look upon the party that adhered to these Prelates with such obstinate stiffness as a Body or Society of which a man could not positively say That is the particular Body wherein God nourishes and cherishes his Faithful and Elect. IX Hence likewise it follows that our Fathers are wrongfully charged with making a Schism and separating from the Church For it being sure that the Church consists of the Faithful only and besides that we are of opinion the Trent Bishops themselves broke the band of external Communion with sound Believers and brought things to such a pass that our Ancestors could not possibly joyn with them in the same Assemblies it is evident They were the Beginners of the Schism the Authors and makers of this lamentable division X. It signifies nothing to alledg that they were possest of the Ministry by an exterior and ordinary succession for the Ministry is not such a thing as men when once possest of can never forfeit their right to tho they abuse it never so much They enjoyed it by an external succession 't is confest but this succession with respect to mens persons continues no longer than we can say The faithful are under their Ministry When we cannot be sure of that any more from thenceforth the Prelates have lost their right and such a succession afterwards would be but as the succession of death to a disease or of night to twilight I do not say the Ministry it self is extinct God forbid but I say in such a case it devolves of right to that other part of the Society where the Faithful are The reason of which Truth is this That the Ministers are naturally the Church Representative And all their Authority is derived from the Body of the Faithful When therefore it happens that they break the band of external communion which joyns them to those Faithful it is plain they represent them no longer and the holding their Authority over them afterwards is a force and usurpation XI Lastly From the Principles we have established it appears how vain and ungrounded a scandal it is which the Controvertists of the Romish Communion are continually upbraiding us with of setting up a new Church For being the Church according to Scripture sound sense and the opinions of the Fathers is nothing else but the Society of true Believers To have set up a new Church we must have brought in a new Faith different from what Jesus Christ delivered to the World If they can convict us of being guilty in this point we are heartily content they should not only say we have formed a new Church but that we have formed a false perverse naughty Society and draw all the consequences against us that can be naturally drawn from that Concession But if we on the contrary have only rejected new Doctrines a worship that Christian Religion never was acquainted with and Errors brought into the Church since it was first established if we have only refined the Ministry and restored the Gospel to its natural lustre they ought to be just in acknowledgment that God hath made use of us for the preservation of his true Ancient Primitive Church and the rescuing it from oppression If it be true that the Trent Council have made Articles of Faith of such Doctrines and Practices as were never revealed to us by Christ may we not say that That hath set up a new Religion and consequently a new Church Let us judge of one another by this Rule of right reason and conscientiously examine the truth of what hath been done on both sides for upon such an examination the justice or injustice of taxing us with Novelty will depend THE SECOND PART OF Monsieur de CONDOM's Discourse EXAMINED THUS much I thought fit to say in Answer to the First part of M. de Condom's Discourse The Second will not detain us very long They made me says he some Objections concerning the frequent revolts of the people of Israel who had so often forsaken God the Kings and all the people as the Holy Scripture speaks during which the publick worship was so extinct that Elijah thought himself the only servant of God till he learnt from God himself that he had reserved to himself seven thousand men which had not bowed the knee unto Baal To this I answer'd proceeds he that for what regarded Elijah there was no difficulty since 't was apparent from the very words that it concern'd only Israel where Elijah prophesied and that the Divine Worship was so far from being at that time extinct in Judah that 't was there under the reign of Josaphat in the greatest lustre it had been since Solomon's time I shall not say here that the Divine Worship under the reign of Josaphat was not in such great lustre neither but that the Scripture informs us The high places were not taken away for the people offered still and burnt incense in the high places which was a worship forbidden by God But not to insist upon this I say in the first place This instance is a very good proof that the greatest part of this exteriour Society professing themselves to be the people of God that is ten tribes out of twelve were corrupted to that degree that Elijah complain'd he only was left Which shews that we must not always conclude Truth and Purity to be of that side where the number is most nor suppose it impossible for what we call the Visible Church to be corrupted at least as to the greatest part of Professors Secondly I
who instead of adhering to the Peoples Errors or dissembling them rose up against them with force and this Succession was so constant that the Holy Ghost fears not to say That God rose up Night and Morning and daily admonisht the People by the Mouth of his Prophets M. de Condom must give us leave to make some Observations upon this Passage The first of which is that in the Corruptions of Israel heretofore when the publick Worship and ordinary Ministry suffered such Depravation there was not any where in the World another publick Worship or another Ministry that was preserved in Purity and Perfection So that if men must needs have lookt for the Church in the Body of the Peoples living under their ordinary Pastors and in the publick worship as he is of opinion we now must under the Gospel there could not have been any longer a Church upon Earth because his own Principle maintains that if this visible and exteriour Church composed of Pastors and People do not keep and teach all truth that is if She teach any thing that is false She is not the Church I observe secondly That in the very same place where God is said to rise up Night and Morning and daily admonish the People by the Mouth of his Prophets it is also said That all the chief of the Priests and the People trespassed wonderfully according to all the Abominations of the Heathen and polluted the House of the Lord which he had sanctified in Jerusalem It is said further too That they mocked the Messengers of God and despised his Words and misused his Prophets Which shews that both People and Priests were generally corrupted and the Church reduced to a Remnant I confess some certain Persons of this Remnant did not keep silence but instead of adhering to or dissembling the Peoples Errors opposed them strongly But besides that a great many more no question sighed in secret for these things it is manifest that this Remnant did not make a separate Body by themselves nor exercise any publick Worship different from the rest And consequently the Churches visibility tho not wholly extinct yet was mightily darkned and diminished and that is all we would infer from hence My third Observation is That there was indeed in that Ancient People a continued Succession of Prophets and as M. de Condom says a Prophetical Ministry ordinary with the People where the Prophets made an Order always subsisting whence God continually drew Divine Men by whose Mouth he spake loudly and publickly to all his People But then we must say withal that the Body of this Order of Prophets were every whit as corrupt as the Priests and People This cannot be denied for the Scripture affirms it expresly The Priests said not where is the Lord and they that should Minister the Law knew me not the Pastors also offended against me and the Prophets prophesied in Baal The Prophets prohesie lies and the Priests bear rule by their means and my People love to have it so I have heard what the Prophets said that Prophesie lies in my Name saying I have dreamed How long shall this be in the hearts of the Prophets that Prophesie lies Yea they are Prophets of the deceit of their own heart Which think to cause my People to forget my Name by their Dreams which they tell every Man to his Neighbour as their Fathers have forgotten my Name for Baal And a vast number of Passages to the like purpose So that we cannot say there was at that time any visible Body that opposed the Corruptions or maintained the Worship of God in its genuine Purity The Prophets by whom God spoke so loudly and publickly were only lookt upon as private Persons of an Opinion different from the generality of the Society And therefore how loudly and publickly soever they spoke if in order to the constituting a Visible Church it be necessary to find a Body or Society of Men making Profession of pure Doctrine M. de Condom must acknowledg that there was not then any Visible Church in the World And now Sir give me leave I beseech you to ask with what pretence to Reason men can still cavil at this instance of the Corruptions in Israel heretofore and not own it for a sensible Proof that confirms most of the Truths established in the former part of this Letter In it you see the several Bodies that made up the ordinary Ministry all of them ensnared in Idolatry and false Worship In it you see the whole Body of the People blindly following the exorbitancies of their Guides In it you see the true Church of God subsisting not in an exterior Society enjoying its Ministers Assemblies and publick Worship peculiar to its self but in some reserved Persons that still maintained their Integrity in the midst of all these Confusions In it you see God himself and after him St. Paul making his true People to consist in these Persons so reserved All this proves and proclaims to the World That the true Church consists of true Believers only That this Church is not otherwise visible but as mixt with wicked Men and Reprobates That this mixture does sometimes so obscure it that it is very difficult to come to a knowledg of it That it does nevertheless still subsist even in that state of obscurity And that in these true Believers and Persons whom God has reserved he does fulfil the Promises of Perpetuity made to the Church I close this Letter with sincere Protestations That it is much to my dissatisfaction that I find my self obliged to put Pen to paper in a Dispute against M. de Condom I have all along had and ever shall have not only all the Respect for him which is due to his Quality and Station but more especially I esteem his Virtue so universally acknowedged and admire his Perfections and the excellent Gifts God hath imparted to him as they really deserve In our Conference I observed in him a Wit lively and piercing a clear Apprehension a proper and easy way of Expression and especially an extraordinary Candour and Civility of Behaviour He maintain'd his Principles with all the strength and advantage imaginable made them look as fair and specious as it was possible for any man and managed them with abundance of Skill and Address In a word I was strangely taken with the Accomplishments of his Person and did often feel such kind Inclinations and Wishes as Men should do upon such Occasions My Sentiments of Honour and Respect for him are sincere but the more they are so the more frequent I must complain of one thing inserted by him in his Discourse with Mademoiselle de Duras and that is That in our Religion we believe there is a point of time when a Christian is obliged to doubt whether the Scripture was inspired by God whether the Gospel is a Truth or a Fable whether Jesus Christ was a Deceiver or a
evidently contradicts that Principle which denies there is an absolute submission due to the sentence of the Church Of this the Discipline it self was a confirmation in that it appointed no Excommunication for such as stood out against the determinations of a Consistory and Provincial Synod and yet did for such as refused to submit to the decrees of a National one The same proceeded he is plain from that Letter Missive to the National Synod For how can men promise and swear submission to whatever should be agreed upon and yet not suppose a full and perfect Submission owing to the Church To urge this Submission proceeds from a perswasion that God will preside in it by his Spirit and his Word and to swear upon this account is to urge that this perswasion is grounded upon God's express Promise to direct his Church in her last determination by his Holy Spirit and after an Infallible manner This very thing said he is plain from the National Synod of Charenton's Act against the Independents The Reason they make use of that suffering their Principle to take place might produce as many several Religions as Parishes concludes for an absolute Obedience to the decisions of Synods since allowing private persons to examine the last determinations there might spring not only as many several Religions as Parishes but as many as there are persons and consequently no means would be left for preserving the unity either of the Faith or of the Church For what relates to the Deputies nominated by the Synod of Saintefoy to go and confer with those of the Ausburg Confession he said he did sincerely acknowledg that the Synod tho it gave them never so large a commission did not however intend it should ever be in their power to subvert all and if I may so say to turn things topsy turvy That he believed the Synods meaning was really that whatever was done by the Deputies should be referred to them and that there is a necessity all things of this nature should be ratified But still it was very amazing and a thing which Mr. Claude had not answered to that they should proffer to insert their Deputies conclusions with the Lutherans in their publick Confessions of Faith For this argued them doubting as to their Confession of Faith which yet they tell us contains nothing but the pure Word of God and in that there can be nothing that requires a change c. Do you think Sir said he that the Articles of your Confession of Faith may be changed When M. de Condom had left off speaking Mr. Claude said he would answer to each particular of his discourse and intreated he would please to hear him quietly And first of all he said That M. de Condom put a wrong construction upon that Article of the Discipline which declares that if men do not acquiesce in the decisions of a Consistory nor those of a Provincial Synod Things shall continue in the same posture till a National one be convened in which a full and final resolution shall be given by the Word of God and they who refuse to acquiesce in This shall be cut off from the Church For the reason of This said he is not either that there ought not to be the same care taken that the Consistories or Provincial Synods determinations should be made by the word of God as well as those of the National nor that this Word hath not as much Authority at one time as another whether declared in a consistory or Provincial Synod or a National one nor that a full and perfect obedience is not due to this only precisely considered as such But this method of proceeding added he was constituted for two reasons very different from what you pretend First because it is highly probable that the search made into Gods Word concerning the matter in controversy may be less exact and sagacious in a Consistory than it would in a Synod composed of all the Ministers in a whole Province and so again by the same reason less exact and sagacious in a Provincial Synod than in a National which is usually made up of all the most ingenious and learned men in the Kingdom The other Reason is That men may possibly be prepossest against a Consistory so as not to hearken to it so readily and impartially as they should which is not so likely in respect of a Provincial Synod which will be thought less apt to be sway'd by interest passions or personal prejudices and consequently they will be more quietly heard Lastly these kind of passions and private Interests being still less likely to happen in a National Synod consisting of persons living remote from one another and coming from all quarters of the Kingdom 't is very probable men will not be prepossest against them and consequently that they will receive the Word of God at their mouths that they will be more ready to learn and better disposed to obey them He said therefore that this method was taken for the avoiding as much as was possible two inconveniences one was to prevent the last determinations being given lightly inconsiderately or with any mixture of humane passion and Interest The other that the parties concerned might not be hindred by any personal prejudices from hearing and receiving the Word of God with that obedience and faithful submission which is owing to it But it could by no means be infer'd from hence that according to the meaning and intention of the Discipline it was not always God's Word as such but the Authority of the Assembly to which that Obedience must be paid And moreover that the decision of a National Synod was for this reason called the last and final decision because according to humane methods and the present course of things there is nothing beyond it to which we can have recourse As for the Letter of Mission to the National Synods he replied that did not infer an absolute submission any more than the Act of their Discipline did because there was in it the express condition of Judging according to the Word of God in these words Being perswaded as we are that God will prâ—side over you by his Holy Spirit and his Word As to the Reason which the Synod of Charenton urged against the Independents this he said did not at all imply a blind and implicit obedience That the dependence which particular Churches have upon Colloquies and Synods was an external Order which tho it had not any sure and infallible means of preserving the Church in the unity of the Faith was however of mighty convenience and use towards the doing it And we ought always to take it for granted that God's Blessing will go along with it as being an order constituted by himself That the Independents by throwing off this Order do deprive themselves of these means and wilfully expose themselves to the great inconvenience of having as many several Religions as Parishes so that the Synod had good
person to understand the true meaning of Scripture better than the whole body of the Church Tell me now Sir whether according to this principle this Child be not obliged always to abide within that Heretical or Schismatical Church Tell me what means you will contrive for him to get out of it It is evident then that your principle would serve as well to continue a Jew in his Judaism a Pagan in his Heathenism and a Heretick in his Heresy as an Orthodox Christian in the true Church To this M. de Condom replied that in the perswasion of that Aethiopian Child we must make a difference between that part which proceeded from the Holy Spirit and that which is the effect of prejudice and humane prepossession That the Holy Spirit 's dictate was in general that there was a Catholick Church somewhere or other but his supposal that the Church in which he was born was that Catholick Church proceeded from humane prepossession It is true he did from this Church receive the Scriptures and belived them to be Divine for no other reason but upon its Authority But afterwards as he was reading the Scriptures the Holy Ghost raised in him some scruples about the Church he was born in and by this means he came off from the Heresy and Schism he found himself insnared in Mr. Claude returned that M. de Condom must of necessity either retract his principle or confess what he now alledged to be utterly impossible Because this Aethiopian neither can nor must be allowed to understand the Scriptures any otherwise than in the sense and interpretation of his own Church by whose Authority it is that he believes them to be Divine and from whose hands he receives their meaning so that when he reads Scripture there can never start up any scruples in his mind against the truth of his own Church because he never expounds any Text of Scripture but in agreement with the sense of that Church about it Now if on the other side your meaning be that this person expounds Scripture of his own head and according to his own judgment so taking it in a sense different from that of the Church you at the same time make him forego the principle that you have all this while been contending for and it is not you only that make him forego it but you do besides maintain that the Holy Ghost himself makes him forego it and all those mighty inconveniences you exclaimed against vanish into nothing He added moreover that what M. de Condom said last justified the measures the Protestants had taken in relation to the Church of Rome for altho that had been believed to be the Catholick Church in the time of our Infancy tho we had received the Scriptures from her and believed them to be of Divine Authority yet must we not be blamed for making a difference between that part of this belief which proceeded from the Holy Ghost and that which was the effect of humane Prepossession and Prejudice We cannot be found fault with for having admitted some Scruples against the Truth of this Church as we read the Scriptures and for having upon this accout withdrawn our selves from her Communion M. de Condom said the Cases did still differ in this circumstance That the Ethiopian when he left his own would betake himself to the Catholick Church whereas the Pretended Reformed have not put themselves into any other Communion at all You courted indeed Jeremy's the Patriarch of Constantinople but he would have nothing to do with you The separation was not from our selves said Mr. Claude and that is enough to shew that we have not separated from the true Church If Jeremy the Patriarch of Constantinople would have nothing to do with us as you say that was to his own loss and he did not do as he should have done in it Upon this the Company rose and the Conference which lasted some time longer grew a great deal more confused several things were then spoken of M. de Condom exaggerated much and pretended to draw a parallel between the separation of the Protestants and that of the old Hereticks particularly the Arrians and Macedonians that set up new Churches by themselves Mr. Claude compared the Protestants behaviour to that of Christ's Apostles when they separated from the Jews that as the Apostles relied on Scripture against the Jews who relied upon Ecclesiastical Assemblies and their Authority the Protestants did the same against the Church of Rome He said the Arrians maintained that the Consubstantiality of the Son of God determined by the Nicene Council was a Novel Doctrine and that many other persons had in truth exprest themselves very unadvisedly concerning the Divinity of the Son among others he instanced in Origea Justin Martyr and the Council of Antioch As for Origen M. de Condom said he was a suspected Author and the Council of Antioch said he was an Arrian Council to which Mr. Claude replied that he was much mistaken for that Council was held before Arrius his time and yet rejected the Term Consubstantial As to Justin Martyr How Sir said he a Martyr speak amiss of the Divinity of the Son of God! I will never believe a word on 't You may believe what you think sit Sir said Mr. Claude but for all that the thing is even so Afterwards M. de Condom put himself upon the Invocation of Saints and Prayers for the Dead For the first of these he told them Mr. Daille had allowed it to be Thirteen hundred years old and Mr. Blondell acknowledged the second to be of great Antiquity Mr. Claude replied it was no great wonder if the Church of Rome which had collected and Cononized the Errors and Superstitions of former Ages had picked up some that were of a good old standing But he ought to have said withal that Mr. Daille had made it appear that for Three hundred years together there was not to be found the least footsteps of Invocation of Saints and especially that there was not any manner of ground for it in Scripture That he acknowledged Prayer for the Dead to be one of the oldest superstitions but there was a mighty difference between the practice of the Primitive Christians and the modern devotions of the Romish Church And after all it was an Error contrary to the principles of Scripture M. de Condom betook himself again to the Comparison between the Protestants and Hereticks of old inferring from thence that they and their Church was new and upstart Mr. Claude shewed him that this prejudice was extremely unjust and of very pernicious consequence Unjust because on one hand it placed the advantage on the strongest side and those that have most of their party whereas the Scripture teaches us quite contrary That we must not follow a multitude to do evil For the strongest side are continually taxing others with making a new Body and a new Church Unjust secondly because a false Antiquity may be