made known to us Let us now lay these two assertions together If your Doctrine hold good All Doctrines of Faith must be explicitely delivered from Father to Son No saith Mr. M. The Church hath power to make known Doctrines implicitely and virtually contained in Scripture I pray could the Father communicate to his Son what was only implicitely and virtually contained in Scripture If Mr. M. say true here is a very possible cause of Innovation assigned without Forgetfulness or Malice viz. when the Fathers of the Church take upon them to draw forth implicit Doctrines and to make them explicit Articles of Faith. And thus undoubtedly many Innovations have come into the Church when some persons have taken up a particular Opinion and because nothing would prevail without Scripture they have attempted to bring it out of Scripture but that being not plain or clear for it they gave out it was virtually and implicitely contained in it and thus it passed from one to another till it getting footing in the Church and prevailing over a great part of it then lest the Church should be charged with Errour and Innovation the prevailing Party takes upon it to declare this to be the sense and meaning of Scripture and to require all persons of their Communion to believe it And thus Mr. M. hath answered your Demonstration But still although the Church of Rome hath assumed such a Power yet it still disowned it and even in the Council of Trent pretended to interpret Scripture according to the unanimous sense of the Fathers which is directly contrary to the Power of making known such a sense and Meaning of Scripture in Doctrines of Faith as may oblige men to believe that explicitely now which they were not obliged to by any precedent Sense or Explication I come now to the Fifth and Last Question Qu. 5. Being the words Christian Church may be taken in several latitudes by persons of different Religions I desire to know what that Christian Church is whose Testimony concerning the Books of Scripture and the Doctrine contained therein is a sufficient ground to make us certain of all matters that are necessary to our Salvation Ans. 5. By the Universal Testimony of the Christian Church concerning the Books of Scripture which are our Rule of Faith as to matters of Salvation I mean the Universal Consent of all Christian Churches from the Apostles times downwards This Mr. M. calls Trifling p. 13. and in this you agree though you differ in the Resolution of Faith. But I pray wherein does this Trifling lie Was it because I would not answer as you would have had me But I do not yet see how I could have answered more to the purpose The Question in short was What the Christian Church was whose Universal Testimony I relied upon as to the Canon of Scripture My Answer was That the Christian Church is that which is made up of all Christian Churches and their Universal Consent is that Testimony we rely upon Is this Trifling But saith Mr. M. p. 14. Mr. G. 's intention was to know what Churches I accounted Christian Churches I told you over and over since we were enquiring into the general Grounds of Faith if we had the Universal Testimony of all Christian Churches I had no reason to go any farther For if all Churches of the Christian World be agreed as they are about the Canon of the New Testament this was sufficient for the certainty of our Faith without looking after any Infallibility in the Church of Rome And this you know was the main Point in Dispute between us as appears by the occasion of it as it is set down by Mr. M. You affirmed that no Protestant could shew any ground of absolute certainty for their Faith I undertook to shew we had for our Faith is resolved into the Scripture as the Word of God and whatever is built on the Word of God is absolutely certain And that these Books of the New Testament contain our Rule of Faith as being the Word of God we have the Universal Testimony of all Christian Churches And this makes our Faith as to these Books absolutely certain And where now is the Trifling Doth the Universal Testimony of all Christian Churches afford sufficient Ground of Certainty as to the Books of Scripture or not If not why do you not shew wherein it fails If it doth what mean you to call this Trifling When it is apparent I have gained the Point I aimed at viz. That we Protestants have certain Grounds for our Faith without any need of the Roman Churches Infallibility Which was the thing to be shewed But Mr. M. tells me p. 14. That you asked me whether I included the Arians Nestorians Eutychians and Calvinists and urged that this Question might be written down to which I did not consent Because Mr. T. declared he was fully satisfied and desired to propose a New Question to Mr. G. I grant you did ask me the Question several times whether I included the Arians Nestorians c. I told you I rejected the Doctrines of all such as were condemned by the four General Councils as the Arians Nestorians and Eutychians were but it was not pertinent to our purpose to consider how far any under those Denominations might be Parts of the Catholick Church For since we had the Consent of all Christian Churches in this Matter I had no Reason to lessen the Evidence they gave by a Concurrent Testimony For the Argument was so much stronger since all Churches under all Denominations did agree in it But Mr. M. still complains that I would not permit your sixth Question viz. What Churches I look'd on as Members of the Christian Church It is strange he should forget for what Reason I rejected it viz. because it was not pertinent to our business For if the Testimony of all Christian Churches be more considerable than only of some why should I lessen the strength of the Argument taken from the Universal Consent of all Christian Churches The other Question must have led us into other Disputes foreign to our business and my design was to keep close to the Matter of Certainty about which the Conference began And now I hope I have given an Answer to the Letter desiring Information of the Conference which I did forbear in my first Letter to set down at large foreseeing that either your self or your friend would offer me farther occasion to give a suffer account of it But because the Substance of the whole Conference depended on those two Points 1. Whether the Universal Consent of all Christian Churches be not a sufficient Ground for our Certainty as to our Rule of Faith viz. the Scripture 2. Whether Tradition from Father to Son be an infallible Conveyance of Matters of Faith To shew wherein the main force of the whole Conference lay in few words I desired you to make good these two Things 1. That we have no absolute Certainty as to the Rule
provoking Which all who have been present at your Conferences will set their hands to Alas Sir How much are you wronged by being charged with Disingenuity in the Conference You are onely forced sometimes to overcome your Natural Repugnance to it as Mr. M. saith he was in writing his Letter to me There is one thing Mr. M. frequently insists upon which I must give an Answer to viz. That I was glad to put an end to the first Dispute That the Issue of it was such that you could have no Temptation for forgery in the Account of it which is not greatly for my Credit p. 9. That I was beholding to Mr. T. for breaking it off p. 20. That I was as little pleased with the true Copies as with the false ones p. 23. That the Conference it self was as little to my Satisfaction as the worst account of it p. 25. These are very fine Insinuations I must not say Artificial for Mr. M. will no more like a word taken from Arts than the word it self If he means that I was very little pleased with the Manner of your Conference I do freely confess it and none who have been present at your other Conferences will blame me for it But if he thinks that I was unsatisfied with the Grounds of Certainty which I gave I utterly deny it For I still assert the same thing and abide by the Answer I then gave and do still hold that the universal Testimony of all Christian Churches is a sufficient Ground of absolute certainty to us as to the Rule of Faith. And this is an Answer I am so fully satisfied in that neither then nor now do I fear any Objections against it But I would not be drawn off from the main Point to another Debate and because I resolved to stick there I thought it most reasonable that Mr. T. should be yielded to for breaking it off at the Point in question which was not about the true Parts of the Catholick Church but about the true Ground of Certainty we had for our Faith. And when Mr. T. declared he had full satisfaction as to that what Reason had I to go any farther As to the truest Copies of the Conference I was not forward to disperse them not out of any Mistrust of the Answers I gave but because they contained onely short Heads and General Answers for those who desire to see an Account of a Conference expect to see a Relation of all that passed or at least of all material Passages relating to it and therefore onely a general Representation of it would seem dry and jejune and not answer the expectation they had of the Relation of a Conference But as to the Matter it self so far as it is truly set down of which I have now given a fuller Account I do abide by it And if my Credit suffer by it I do assure you it is not by reason of any Objection Mr. M. hath made against it or any that I foresee can be made Mr. M. chargeth me with disingenuous and unchristian proceeding toward you p. 23. This is a home Charge and not much indeed for my Credit if he can in the least make it good But if not I leave him to judge where the disingenuous and unchristian proceeding lies and to remember his Application of the Mote and the BEAM p. 15. Whereon is the heavy Charge grounded Why forsooth When I heard of false and imperfect Copies I ought to have sent to you to know whether they were given out by you What! When they came to my hands from those very Persons to whom you gave them But I ought to have shewn you the Errours of them and desired their Amendment It was indeed a very likely and hopefull way of vindicating my self When I knew from the very Persons to whom you spake what Boasts you had made of your victory and what Publick Places you had read the Copies in it was a very probable thing that if I had shewed you the Falsity of them You would have gone to those very Places and Persons and told them Gentlemen I must beg all your Pardons for I communicated false Copies to you and told you idle and lying stories about the Conference for I have been since with Dr. St. and he hath demonstrated to me that my Copy was not true although it were my own Copy and that which I delivered to you for very true Do you think Sir You could have overcome your Natural Repugnance so much as to have yielded to this Method of Satisfaction If not when I was assured so many Copies were dispersed in Town and Countrey which you could not recall if you intended it when I was called upon time after time by my Friends and it was told me something must be done towards my vindication What could I doe more proper or effectual than to publish that Letter which hath so much provoked Mr. M. as to make him overcome his Natural Repugnance and to appear in Print But yet there are other Circumstances which make my proceeding neither Ingenuous nor Christian. As that The Letter was published so long after That shews how unwilling I was to be brought to it and nothing but mere Necessity could have overcome my Natural Repugnance in such a Case For as the Authour of the former Letter well observes I love to spare my own Pains But I took the opportunity of your Absence Therein Mr. M. did me Injury For truly Sir it was perfectly the same thing to me whether you were at Lond. or West-Chest Nay the Argument would hold the other way if it were true For I heard of your talking of going to Ch. soon after the Conference and that you told Persons you were just going and I did believe you to be there till I heard of some other Conferences of yours I do not think my self bound to enquire after your Stays or Removes but I know how you had done me wrong and therefore Mr. M. can have no Reason to blame me for doing what was necessary for my own vindication Mr. M. charges me p. 35. with having too mean an Opinion of you If I be to blame in this I hope you will take Care to rectifie it but Mr. M. hath not done much towards it However he takes a notable Advantage as he thinks from hence We saith he will be contented to pass for Weak and Ignorant and I shall be obliged to shew by whom you may be protected from Errour A very well compounded business But what if it be not in my Power or any ones else to make you infallible Did I ever promise or undertake any such thing Or set up Infallible Bills When I doe so then come to me for such Directions We never pretend to make any Persons Infallible but to put them into a certain way to be saved which we think is much better And if men be honest and sincere in their Endeavours to know and doe the Will of God
we have the Word of God for it that they are in the certain way to salvation but if they could be kept from all Errour and yet not be sincerely Good Can Faith save him Jam. 2.14 What doth it profit my Brethren though a man say he hath Faith even infallible Faith and have not Works I have long wonder'd at this kind of Missionary Zeal as Mr. M. speaks p. 34 against Errour and the want of I know not what Infallibility when so much less Zeal is shewed against Mens Passions and Vices whereas the Vertues of the Mind and of a good Life are far more excellent and usefull to Mankind than being kept from Involuntary Errours But saith Mr. M. It is a most uncomfortable thing to be shewn that you ought not to trust your Reason and to be told yâ—u ought In answer to this suggestion I will tell you a very comfortable thing and that is the allowance God makes for Ignorance and Weakness For if God will not charge Involuntary Errours upon us we may think our selves as safe as if we were Infallible What Reason we have we ought to make use of for the best purposes but if our Reason fail us the Goodness of God will not if we be Sincere Yet Mr. M. cannot get it out of his head but that it is my Task to give some distinguishing Mark for the finding out those Christians on whose Tradition we may safely rely for the Reception of the holy Scriptures How often must I repeat it that it is none of my Task And that if the Testimony of all Christian Churches be a sufficient Ground of Certainty I have no Reason to examine farther As for Instance suppose upon a Lord Mayor's Day I ask of all the several Liveries and Companies and other People whether my Lord Mayor be gone by and they all unanimously agree that he is have not I reason to be satisfied by this universal Consent Ay but Sir saith Mr. M. you are to consider that there was a great diversity in the Companies you met with there was my Lord Mayor's own Company and many besides some whereof had no Charters confirmed to them I desire you to tell me which of the Companies had Charters and which not for my part I will believe none but the Testimony of those Companies which could produce their Charters But say I if our Dispute was about legal Companies you say very well but since I aim at no more than knowing whether my Lord Mayor be gone by or not I think the Testimony of them all is sufficient whether incorporated or not whether they were of the Orange or Blew Regiment or any other People in the Street when I find them all to agree in the same thing I have no reason to question the Certainty of it I will not think so poorly of your Vnderstandings as to think it needs Application But I must think so if yet you think it my Task to find out a distinguishing Mark between Churches when the universal Testimony of all Christian Churches is sufficient for the Certainty of our Faith which Mr. M. so often grants was the Occasion and Subject of the Conference And now there is nothing remaining to be answered in Mr. M's Letter to me but his learned Discourses about Verbal Conferences and Coffee-Houses which will require no long Answer from me As to Verbal Conferences they depend so much on the Temper Ingenuity Presence of Mind and particular skill in Controversie which Persons have that no certain Rule can be given about them They may doe Good or Hurt be Usefull or Mischievous as the Persons and circumstances are And it is not the setting down some general Heads can prevent the Mischief of false Reports as I have had too large and fresh Experience of it Which ought to make every one more Carefull what sort of Persons he meets with upon such Occasions I do not see how any Man can be secure as to his Reputation after them if they are such as run into Companies frequent Coffee-houses and are apt to boast and to talk much of themselves as that at such a time saith one I disputed with such a Man and these were my Arguments and he gave such trifling Answers to them that I wonder he should have any Reputation And to convince you look ye Gentlemen here are the Notes of such a Conference do you mark what a pitifull Answer this is and then when he was required to go farther he Refused and pretended business and want of Time so that upon the whole Matter I conclude him to be a Mere Trifler All this while the Person concerned is at a Distance and knows nothing of all this but he is abused and reproached at the Mercy of such Persons who look on an officious Lie as a Venial sin especially when it is thought to serve a Good Cause And when the injured Person comes to understand how he hath been used he hath no way left but to publish a Vindication of himself and so Verbal Conferences must end in Writing Controversies unless some effectual way could be found out to prevent mens partial and disingenuous Representing them afterwards There is too great Reason to believe that those who are most Impertinent in a Dispute will be so after it and great Talkers are commonly great Boasters especially when they hope to recommend themselves by their pretended Victories and their Missionary Zeal of disputing in Coffee-houses A thing which Mr. M. observes p. 34. the Children of the Reformation are little acquainted with And I do not like the Mother of these Children a jot the less for it For Religion is a grave and serious thing and ought to be treated with a Respect due to the Concernments of it I am far from being a Friend to any Seditious idle or profane Discourses in those places but yet methinks it looks very oddly to turn Places of Diversion into Schools of Disputing And if such a Missionary Zeal prevails I suppose the Keepers of those Houses will give little thanks to the Promoters of it for Men do not love to drink their warm liquour in Mood and Figure nor to lace their Coffee with Controversies Mr. M. represents me p. 33. as one that thought it a Crime to go to Coffee-houses Which is a notable device to make all the Gentlemen who frequent them my Enemies Whereas I onely mentioned your reading your Paper in Coffee-houses and there boasting of your Conference wherein he might be sure I would not be present to contradict him But this is a distinguishing Mark of Mr. M's Ingenuity I shall mention one more and conclude this Letter Mr. M. confesses many Lies are told in Coffee-houses p. 33. and I have some Reason to believe him But if saith he all Places are to be avoided wherein Lies are told I am afraid Dr. St. would run the hazard of being silenced for want of a Pulpit which might be ventured on This is such an obliging Complement to the London Clergy to compare their Pulpits to Coffee-houses for Lying that it is beyond my skill to return it But if there be so little Truth in our Pulpits as Mr. M. suggests which I am sure he can never prove yet the constant Loyalty which hath been preached there might have made Mr. M. a little more civil to them than to compare them to Coffee-houses wherein himself complains of Seditious idle and profane Discourses I am Sir Your humble Servant E. S. London Apr. 21 1687. THere is in the Press and will speedily be published an Answer to the Reasons of Edward Sclateâ— Minister of â—uâ—ney for his Conversion â—o the Roman Catholick Faith and Communion Sold by H. Mortlock at the Phoenix in St. Paul's Church-yard V. Herâ—s Blackloâ—n