degrees might use a kind of a pious fraud in altering the then Worship from those Objects and substituting in their room the Images of the Trinity Angels Saints and holy Christians So came the vain repetitions of Prayers as the Heathens use 6 Mat. 7. And perhaps Dominus Deus Papae so succeeded Deus Antoninus and Dominus Deus Domitianus and because Dea Pecunia had a Temple in Rome Money has been since as much worshipped there as Juno Moneta and the votivae tabulae hung up in your Churches to the Virgin Mary and Saints c. after Diseases cured were the same as was done among the Pagans viz to Isis in Aegypt and so in Rome like our late Mountebanks Catalogues of Cures which might take by the semblance of their Worship and so by degrees draw them quite off to the true Christian Worship Which design not only took effect but the succeeding Ages proving sottish and unlearned contented themselves with what an Infant Christian Age had done and continued that worship part Heathen part Christian and grew into a belief that the fabulous Mousetraps made to catch Pagans and bring them into the Church were the true Gospel Engines to bring Christians to Heaven So the Inquisition was first invented as a Trap against Moors after a snare for sheep which senseless Dotage has ever since bewitcâ—ed the foolish Romans and has the face to confront this inquisitive Age just like the man that by frequently telling of a Lye came at last to believe it Phy. Truly Sir your conceit may have something of Truth in it as to the conversion of the Heathens into the Christian Religion by the Catholick Church of Old Rome But that the way of Worship and Devotion continued by them for so many hundred years should deserve your harsh and profane language I understand not for the primitive Church was doubtless as wise as the Church at any time since Phy. That the primitive Catholick Church was as wise as the Church has at any time since been I agree and so was the Primitive Romish Church when St. Paul and St. Peter were there but I know when it failed in its Wisdom and Worship and you your self admit it 's not so wise now by your distinction of Old Rome and New Rome Pray unfold that a little Pap. The Catholick Bishop of Old Rome never pretended to an Universal Monarchy both in Spirituals and Temporals over the whole Earth as the Bishop of New Rome doth and to be Superior to other Sov'raign Princes in civil matters and as to that point I call this New Rome from this New Doctrine which I oppose as strongly as any Protestant Phy. Sir I should have thought that the difference you make between Old Rome and New Rome had been with reference to Physick for that Old Rome was contented with the renowned Aescalapius who cured diseases after the method we now use and New Rome it seems fancies curing after the Hermitical way as you say But pray Sir did your Priest adopt you into the Communion of Old Romes or New Romes Church Or did he tell you the difference between the Doctrines and Worship of one or the other I doubt not Yet you say true in saying it's a Doctrine and a New Doctrine for it was made such by the Council of Lateran and the Council of Lyons and not before So it is that the Pope may dispence with Oathes and in execution of that Article in Queen Elizabeths time such dispensations were intercepted in their journy to the Steady Roman Church Catholicks in Scotland pretending as your Superiors do and by those dispensations the Roman-Catholicks in general were allowed to promise Swear Subscribe and do what else should be required of them so as in mind they continued firm and did use their diligence to advance in secret the Roman Faith The remembrance of which occasion'd King James to provide as he did against Aequivocal professions and pretences of Allegiance Now then how can one be of the Communion of that Church who differs from that Church in point of faith if the Pope or his Councels may be believed to determine Articles of faith if Mr. Cressâ—y faies true in his Book in which he gives account of his conversion to the Romish Communion viz. That it 's impossible that Catholicks should differ in point of Faith or that Schism should be in their Church which is grounded on singular reason for if he differs in Faith he ceases to be a Catholick and when one is Schismatick he ceases to be of that Church Pap. Well True roman-Roman-Catholicks do hold so and that makes all of your Church Hereticks and Schismaticks and out of our Communion Phy. In good time good Fellow Travailer does it so Why then that very thing if so makes your True English Roman Church Catholicks Hereticks Schismaticks and not of the Communion of the Romish Church to which they have so generally and undistinguishingly profelyted you and indeavour to inveigle others Judge ye now therefore whether these Phanatick Papists mean good faith to you or to their Natural Prince when they pretend Allegiance to their Liege Lord and do deny Supremacy to the Pope in Civil and Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction here and accuse their Church to Err in such pretences and in some matters of Faith to their utter severance from that Church-Communion and Protection and yet at the same time with all Subtilty and wilely Arts are Discipling English Men in the Faith and Communion of the Church of Rome generally without any Restriction or Limitation Pap. It is enough for us of the Laity to believe as the Church believes in matters which concern us as Practise and Worship c. And for the difficult points of Faith and Disputation let out Superiors whose duty it is look to them for we shall answer for no more then we know or are Taught Phy. Know or are taught Will ye suffer your Ears to be stopped and excuse your not hearing not knowing and not being taught and lay all on him who stopped your Ears with your own consent Come Sir consider whether it will add any pleasure to your Travail to go to Hell on another mans back Or if you say to the Devil he brought me hither pray let me go back to whence I came and keep him will Old Nick release you No Therefore get out of your Fetters and duress break forth from your Ignorant Shackles search and try whether your Pope in Church and Pope in Court agree then whether your Confessor agrees with Pope or Court or Church or with the Communion of any one Country Catholick or other and you 'l easily find him to be so far only like unto the Pope as an Heteroclite in Religion either deficient or redundant and not to be brought under any rule Then consider further use due and utmost searches according to your circumstances with the aid of Divine Assistance whether it be not better to be guided by the Pope
say against Forreigners let them use what Religion their Superiours there injoyn them But against English men who in opposition to the Religion of State distinct from that of Faith which is ordered by the proper Legislative Power such as your Church of Rome Papist is for ought I can yet see If your Father Paul was such I think him either a fool or a Knave for if St. Peters Successor did behave himself well in that Council your Paul was a Knave to traduce him if contrary he was a fool to leave a well ordered Church to follow the Dictates of such a faulty Guide yet were he a Subject of Rome he was much too blame so openly to reproach his Prince and yet was religious to dye a steady Cathâ—lick of that Church while he was obliged to hear the Pharisee sitting in St. Peters Chair Pap. Well Sir say what you will I say I am a true Roman Catholick as to the other World and a true English man as to this Phy. Sir you offered a Distinction lately with a witness viz. Father Paul and now comes a Distinction with Paulo majore and as to this I say it 's a Distinction well becoming a Romish-Church-Catholick but not a true English man for it looks two waies for if Chequer Papist party per pale half true Papist half true English will not do then it is to be interpreted True English man for life and after true Roman Catholick and so it has something of Policy but more of Romish Guile In as much as it serves to secure Protection and Preservation here during life and after in the other world True Roman Catholick goes for it to St. Peter God a mercy good Distinguisher he dares as well be hang'd as tell the Pope this how he cheats the Pope all his life and cheats the King at his death this Distinction dares not appear at Rome no more then peaceable Mr. Walsh Mr. White or Mr. Serjeant who non-conform from the Church of Rome more then our Independent from the Church of England Pap. But Sir if the Distinguisher as you call him explains himself and sayes he owes Allegiance to the King actively as to Matters of State and passively as to Matters of Church and so differs from your Church in pure Judgment only and no more then Presbyterian or Independents there who are good Subjects nevertheless owe Allegiance and claim protection c. what say you then c Phy. First I say that Church and State were all one before Christian Emperours divided them and causes were all derived from the same Fountain the King but as some were put into the hands of Ecclesiasticks and were called Ecclesiastical or Spiritual so others delegated to Civil Magistrates were called Civil thence arose the two Jurisdictions which are naturally one as in our King and by Delegation only made two But I further say if you be in earnest it is the first time I ever heard Papists to fight with Presbyterian weapons and I mean by earnest real for sad Experience has shew'd that it is not the first time by thousands that the Militants of the Romish Church have used the unhallowed Artillery of the spurious English Natives to fight withal against us Yet not in earnest or real as such but in Masquerade and if your Distinguisher be so half witted to tender this peace-meal Obedience I say further It 's the proper Result of Romish Ignorance for such Notional Obedience is indeed none True Obedience ought to be intire and is due to the lawful Magistrates Commands by the Law of Nature antecedent to any Command by the Magistrate for the Lords sake who injoyns to obey not barely for the Commands-sake which injoyns to do And there is more Religion in such Obedience then in all your Worship But Sir I would willingly be resolv'd whether the Romish Church Catholick dissent from us in Church matters in pure Judgment or by reason of some Command from the Pope next whether there be not a great difference between Protestant and Popish Dissenters Inasmuch as the former whatever he thinks concerning the power of his Prince in Church matters and perhaps would have him mend his Discipline according to mistaken Rule of Scripture yet he takes it not from our Prince and lodges it in a forraign Prince or Prelate which last makes it Treason Let this be answered and I 'le promise you not to take such an uncouth Travail as at present gives occasion of our Discourse Pap. Pray Sir is there any harm if I prefer the Pope to the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury Phy. None at all as the former is a Temporal Prince and the latter but a Subject nay more the Arch-Bishop of Rome shall have my Vote to take Precedency of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury at a general Council when it happens but not in England unless by Curtesy And if you prefer the Pope before the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury as to any power of Spiritual Jurisdiction in our Kings Dominions you are unmannerly to the Arch-Bishop who is Apostolick and Patriarch here as Pope Vrban the second allowed and you are a Traytor to the King by and under whose undoubted inherent Right and Authority the Arch-bishop is Primate in this Patriarchate Pap. But do you think in your Conscience that the Pope has no Right to Spiritual Jurisdiction in England Phy. Aye I do in my Conscience verily believe that the Pope has no Right to any Jurisdiction whatsoever in our Kings Dominions Pap. Pray what Grounds have you for it Phy. The Grounds I have for it is from the certain Testimony of Records continued in Succession for many hundred years which are to be seen in the Tower and some of them are transcribed by the Lord Coke and cited in the Report of a Law Case called Cawdries Case and in Mr. Prins Collections whereby it plainly appears that in all ages wherein the Pope laid claim to Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in England and offered to put the same in Execution it was alwaies opposed by Parliaments and Councils as derogatory to the just Rights of this Crown Pap. But how are you certain of the truth of these Testimonies Phy. Sir as to the matter of Certainty I shall not use the notions so much contended about viz. Moral Certainty or sufficient Certainty so much as the Nature of the thing is capable of there being three absolute Certainties by which we come to the knowledg of things 1. A sensible Certainty 2. A Mathematical Certainty 3. An Historical Certainty and all these are in their kinds respectively absolute The Certainty of Sence makes me absolutely Certain of what I see hear c. The Certainty of Demonstration makes me absolutely Certain that one and one makes two and three and three makes six The Certainty of History continued uninterrupted and undoubted and by unanimous Consent of succession of Ages and Historians makes me absolutely certain that there were such Kings of England as Kenulphus King Edwin Edw. the
Peace of the Nation provided ye by the same Oath declared that the Pope could not dispense therewith And if the Pope himself would also declare so That would certainly conduce to make your true Roman Catholick a true English man and until both be so done I cannot promise security to the peace of the Nation But I pray why are you so in love with the Romish Liturgy and Worship that you vvould have it established here Pap. For these Reasons 1. For that it is for the Honour of the Christian Religion that the same way of Worship might be observed in all Christian Churches 2. For that the vvay of the Romish Worship has been used in all Christian Ages and in all Christian Kingdoms and Places till of late and is still used in some Kingdoms where the Popes Jurisdiction is not allowed Phy. Sir as to your first reason I agree it would be exceedingly for the Honour of the Christian Religion if such Harmony and Agreement could be used in religious Worship as that one God might be worshipped in one way but as that never was so I fear never will be till all things be no more As to your second reason I deny that the Romish Worship as now is used was in any Christian Age or Kingdom used for above five hundred years after Christianity came into the world nor do your true English Roman Catholicks as you call them now agree with any other Christian Kingdom Church or Place vvhatsoever if they belie not themselves Pap. Well it has been so long used and with so general a Consent and Approbation as may well Intitle it to a preference to this new upstart way of Worship which this Nation has had not above 100 Years Phy. As to the Argument of Antiquity and long Usage It may be good in cases of Politick and Civil rights and Interests and become determinative provided it be not against positive Laws natural Equity or reason And in these Exterior parts of Religion it can obtain no more For a way of worship repugnant to the positive Law declared in Scripture or repugnant to the positive Law of the supreme Magistrate ought not to be exercised by any Subject living under the protection of that Supream Magistrate without sin and breach of Allegiance And Sir I must tell you further that this Notion of Antiquity though of great veneration in it self yet has been often used to the disadvantage of truth and made a Stale to dangerous mistakes and corrupt purposes You know who was reproved for not walking after the Traditions of the Elders 7. Mat. 5. and who were so zealous for the Traditions of the Fathers 1. Gal. 14. Against whose Arguments of Antiquity it was only opposed search the Scriptures 5. John 39. and you may see 17 Acts 19. who scoff'd at the new Doctrine as you at this new upstart way of Worship though indeed elder to yours So the Antiquity barely as such is no Argument for one or against another or that the more ancient as such is to be preferred before the late but again I say search and try vvhich is the best and adhere to that for the Improvement of your own not another mans Talent must enrich you Pap. This despising of things antient and entertaining of things Novel in Religion has not only made a lamentable breach in the Catholick Church but this Nation more particularly and dolefully has felt the direful Effects thereof in your Divisions and Subdivisions in the matters of Religion and the vvayes of religious Worship witness all your Sects and Dissentions that have lately over-run the Nation Phy. As this Objection is of some standing so it 's nere the better nor stronger for it for new Answers have fully confounded it as vvell to the reason of the thing as to a returning it vvith abundant additions on the Romish Church vvherein are many more Divisions Sects and Dissention then in ours as Doctor Stillingfleet has learnedly and faithfully made out in one Chapter of his Book against Idolatry c. Pap. Pray then tell me a reason why may not I or another so perswaded with good conscience use the Romish Way of Worship and Devotion and not the English Way of Worship if I allow the Kings Supremacy and disallow the Popes Phy. Laying aside the reasons urged against the irrationality foppish feigned Superstition Incredibility and Idolatry at large discoursed by Dr. Stillingfleet in his Book against their Idolatry and Fanaticism and it's Vindication a Book called Reflections on the Romish Devotions another the Triumphs of Rome over despised Protestancy two others viz. the Funeral of the Mass and the depth and mystery of the Mass vvhich I vvish you to read and others I 'le tell you another reason viz. because the King has commanded the contrary Pap. Why can the Kings Command bind me in my vvay of Worship is it not sufficient if I disown the Pope Phy. You disown the Pope only by half yet such disowning may be well done and if we could be assured it was well done might give some Security to the King against Forreign Civil Pretenders but still you give him no Security for perfect Obedience as a true English man and against breach of the peace of the Church if you conform not to his lawful Commands in his waies of Worship Pap. Pray how come the King to have power to impose a way of Worship according to his own Will Phy. The King has as much Power to impose a way of Worship here as the Pope has in his Dominions but neither has Power to impose a way of Worship absolutely according to his own VVill. Pap. What has the King Power to impose a Way of Worship and yet not according to his own Will pray according to whose Will does he so impose c. Phy. He imposes it according to the Will of God Pap. How can that be for the Protestants say that no Way of Worship is expresly appointed in Scripture and they allow no Revelations to holy men to be credited Phy. This is the rule they go by whatsoever in Religion is not of the essence of Christian Religion intituled by our Saviour himself or declared or advised to be practised by the Apostles is lawfully looked on as Religion of State in that it may be altered or improved or abolished by the Soveraign power for the better Advancement of those ends which are essential the same power may remove Errors Inconveniences Scandals and abuses therein and of that Nature is the way of Worship and so within the Power of the King The King has no Power over the kernel but over the shell he has and by his Soveraign power that is preserved inviolate Pap. Well but if he has such power why could he not keep the Old shell but make a New one Phy. Our King has not made a New shell to keep the Old kernel in but he has amended the Old shell for the better preservation of the Old kernel
within you viz. your own reason so informed which was placed there as was said to distinguish you from a Brute that can go stand do c. as he is taught or at least by a Church in whose Conduct you may have rational satisfaction in all the points of its profession So then if your Pope your Councils your Church do err as your true English roman-Roman-Catholicks say they do in Doctrinals in matters of Faith How can you be assur'd that your Runigate Priests do not err in the matters they inculcate into your easy heads and in that unintelligible Faith which is against sence and reason and their own Judgments And how can you then be assured they err not in worship which is of less weight Pap. Constant Usage and Approbation are sufficient grounds for me in that However you may see that we Roman Catholicks of this perswasion submit our selves to the Laws of the Land are willing to give security for not disturbing the peâ—ce and of our Allegiance to the King and so in Justice are intitled to the Kings protection and deserve not to be lyable to the penal Laws intended purely against the Papists of the Court of Rome Phy. Very well we are now come to the end of the Journey whence we began and so in our Discourse viz. to the Distinction of Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papists and I am still of opinion that neither ought to be suffered here For were it possible to believe that all the English Romish Catholicks were such Mungrel Papists as you pretend to be that is to obey the Pope in part and our King in part as has been said as is plain they are not as appears by the opposition of most of them to the formulary or remonstrance mentioned by Peter Walsh yet even they are not to be trusted here with safety to the King For what security can there be given that the Roman Catholick who is false to the Pope should be faithful to the King that one can serve two Masters pretending to Equality with equal faithfulness that one who is excommunicated by his own Church should keep faith with another Church that one who is notoriously perjured should be believed That one who is of the Church of Rome should be bound by that Oath which his Church condemns and frequently dispenses with and he owns that one who is so easie as to believe the ridiculous Fables of Old Rome may not as easily be drawn over to the rebellious faults of the New Rome and Peter Walsh's assurance for his party is just as valuable as his partner Cressy's for the Jesuits and what Credit can be given to one who brake his Oath to this Church and then did as much to the other and is now possessed with or by the Devil being delivered over to Satan Besides 't is obvious how dangerous it is to indulge that sort of people by the stir they have lately made in publick declaimings against the Religion of this Kingdom and the disturbance of this Churches peace which is an ill requital for the Kings gracious Clemency and has awakened those laws which otherwise might have slept still And how can that Papist be believed to be true and faithful to that King whom he takes to be an Heretick and will infallibly be damned How can a Popish Fanatick who believes all the Enthusiasmes allowed in the Romish Church viz. the Revelations of Mother Juliana the Preface to Sancta Sophia who thirsts after the lights which do expell all Images of Creatures and calm all manner of passions to the end that the Soul being in vacuity may be more capable of entertaining God in the pure fund of the Spirit who is in possession of the Deiform fund of the Soul which is the simple Essence of the Soul stamped with Divine Impress from whence ariseth a superessential life being a way of knowing without thoughts of seeing in darkness of understanding without reasonâ— of unknowing God by perceiving of being melted and brought to nothing first and then being lost and swallowed up in God by which means all created being is put off and that which is only Divine put on being changed into God as Iron heated into the nature of fire which is attained to by seeking God in the Obscurity of Faith with a more profound introversion of the Spirit which is the State of Nothingness or of Totality or the unica of Nothing with Nothing by which the Soul comes to a feeling of her not being and by consequence of the not being of Creatures I say how can such a one who must first be mad before he can know he is in his wits expect any better Entertainment in England then the three late York-shire Quakers had at Rome viz. as being dismissed as Mad-men They being in France shaved to cure that Frenzy which oft by shaving is occasioned and such as this are some of your Romish Church Catholicks nay even the Superiors as they have testified to the World in Print and why may not such a Romish Church Quaker who attains knowledge after a Mystical way by the Impulses of the Spirit only extravagate soon into civil affairs as well as Father White who never read Mathematicks as he sayes and without the Help of Humane Learning attain to the perfect knowledge of the Quadrature of the Circle And how are these Formulary men to be believed while they can to the Pope excuse their remonstrance of Allegiance to their King by saying that they only acknowledge but do not swear it that they do not Condemn the opinion contrary to the Oath nor do they declare that the Pope cannot dispense with the Oath or any part of it Let any one Judge now comparing their remonstrance to the King and their Declaration to the Pope what manner of Allegiance and Obedience the King may expect from them especially it being declared by the Council of Toledo in the time of Innocent the sixth That laws as to Ecclesiastical persons bind not ad culpam but ad poenam And by Aquinas Monks are only bound to profess not to keep the rules of St. Benedict just so are our True English Roman Catholicks bound to profess and owe as you call it Allegiance but how or when to keep or pay it who can he assured thereof And their stories tell us That the Devil appeared to Fryar Ruffin in form of Christ And what security is there by that Oath taken by them while the same persons taking that Oath can confidently assure the Pope That they do not condemn the opinion contrary to that Oath nor do they declare that the Pope cannot dispense with that Oath or any part of it which is as much as to say and believe that the Pope can dispense therewith which they may more easily believe then that the Pope can dispense with St. Pauls Epistles with the New Testament with the Old and New Testament with the whole law of God and to compleat the Popes