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A45407 A copy of some papers past at Oxford, betwixt the author of the Practicall catechisme, and Mr. Ch. Hammond, Henry, 1605-1660.; Cheynell, Francis, 1608-1665. 1650 (1650) Wing H531; ESTC R18463 111,324 132

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is but a nicety that untill I did beg as well as desire and request and againe re-inforce my request you did not thinke fit to grant me the least crumbe of that justice which I desired from you At the phrase exact account you affirme your selfe to have stumbled and call it those hard words If this bee so I cannot tell how to behave my selfe so cautiously as either to speak plainely enough to you or to keep you from stumbling For axact account is so plaine to bee understood and so unlike jurisdiction unlesse you mistooke it for exacting an account which you are too subtle to doe when the word desire went before it that if ever I had exercised jurisdiction over you or any other which I never was in place to doe the Office for which my first fruits are required being without a jurisdiction annext to it yet you could not have been tempted by that to this mistake I suppose you were pleased to be merry when you imply you were and therefore must friendly admonish you that there is a shrewd disease in which Irenaeus had so much skill as to pronounce 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and therefore I shall briefly desire you that hereafter you speak 1 So properly as not to say desiring is exercising jurisdiction And 2 Seriously for truly I am not in jest when I write to you and that would have kept you safe from stumbling Yet because you are at such leisure as to remember I had an Office in your now Countrey I shall tell you that there is a seale belonging to that Office from which if you had induction to that Living you may read in your Wax 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and then you will soone discerne how many men as well as mee you have helpt to make happy I blesse God and will never curse you that I am one of that number In your next Section you pray for them that suggested so many false accusations against you to mee But first you affirme not above one to have been false and that I confesse to bee so and need not to bee told so back againe As for your new accusation which you are resolved to pay mee in stead of that former I desire you to know that I defie it and know no danger or ill sound in the language of Speculative mysterie nor acknowledge any Author of it whom you can suspect particularly not him whose name you blotted out so that I might read I meane neither Smalcius nor Socinus whose doctrines in the businesse of the Trinity I doe heartily disclaime and am so farre from being tainted or tempted by them that I cannot say I ever permitted my selfe to read any Tract in them or any other of that set unlesse in the Racovian Catechisme on that subject And you will never repaire the injury if you use arts to fasten it on mee or to perswade any man that I was ever inclined towards it For your nicety by which you except against my calling the doctrine of the Trinity a speculative mystery saying that it is practicall and giving your reason because the blessed Trinity is the object of our worship as well as of our faith I shall make no scruple to acknowledge the Trinity to bee the object of our worship and to that end I directed that concluding act of my worship to that blessed object and every point of that which in the Catechisme is made due to God I supposed there and now professe to bee perfectly due to the Trinity But then you might remember that you acknowledge it the object of our faith and of that there be many parts which will not be disparaged by being stiled mysteries and depths of speculation and in that sense or as they are so I then spake and onely so and need not acknowledge any impropriety in that speech because though a speculative doctrine may be also practicall in another respect as the knowledge of the causes of diseases is a practicall knowledge in respect of the cures it will help to worke yet as that is ordinarily called the Theory of Physick and is presumed before Students ascend to the practicall so I told you the Author supposed the speculative understanding of that mystery in the Church-Catechisme before hee came to the Doctrines in this Booke which are the practicall You remember mee that a Sacramentall Covenant is practicall and I may as well remember you that there are credenda proposed to the vower in that Sacrament as well as facienda On occasion of mention of the Church-Catechisme you say you like that better then my Practicall and I confesse my selfe to doe so too so vehemently that I beleeve 't will bee long ere wee see a better in its stead But yet I conceive that hee that hath learnt that may bee capable of more at least of directions to make use of that knowledge imbibed to the amendment of his life else most of our preaching were in vaine nay else both that Catechisme ought never to have been expounded and every one that hath written any thing else for the benefitting of youth or men must lye under the prejudice of that insolence of thinking himselfe able to make a better as well as this Author For your justice in that answer to the third reason I am not to thanke you nor can I thinke that any man that was in any measure my friend needed to bee told by you or any that I acknowledged the Trinity If hee did examine your owne heart whether you know not some body who had helped to defame mee in that particular by saying I was a Socinian or the like or by saying I maintaine many errours broached by such If you doe not I will thank you for the good office you mention and so hasten also and wish heartily I could make more haste to get into some more delightfull imployment to the second report In that I see I met with no false accusation of you but in you enough of injury to that Author by picking out what might make him odious and present him an eloquent learned disciple of yours to bee taught that swearing is a sinne or rather a profane designer and corrupter of the Nation that hath given Boyes a liberty of swearing in their Catechisme I have sufficiently told you and all men that that Author is most guiltlesse of that charge and if you will not yet acknowledge it I must leave it to God to judge betwixt us as also whether hee produce not the unquestionable command of God against all swearing assertory or promissory and whether you doe not imply that hee doth so in saying against him that the perhaps imaginary superaddition which you know are no other then the words of Christ will not bee so effectuall to restraine as the unquestionable command of God Sir doth hee question the Command of God to bee against swearing doth hee not say that all profane use of Gods name is sure forbidden under the
such things as are of divine institution in every Ordinance and to set forth other things according to the rules of Christian prudence agreeable to the generall rules of the Word of God and for the consent and harmony of the Churches there are generall heads propounded and if you observe the generall heads the sense and scope of the prayers and other parts of publique worship you will have no cause to complaine of disorder and confusion in our publique worship But you tell mee that wee may pray as we ought without the helpe of that Liturgy which you conceive was formed in the Apostles time and therefore I thinke I may proceed to the sadder part of your task 1 Concerning your sad Story I need say no more but that I am glad you have disabused one offender I could wish that you would disabuse all those whom you have abused with three or foure editions of your Booke by a remarkable Recantation of your error Sir venture my arguments to any Reader I feare none let your Book bee witnesse whether I charge you justly or no I meane your Book printed at Oxford and all printed after that Copy I except nothing but your lesse remarkable alteration which was not remarkable enough for mee to take notice of in so short a time and therefore you must blame your selfe that your Recantation was no more remarkable for when you told mee that you added these words In the primary intention of the phrase I looked over your additions more heedfully and could not finde it and I did at last read even your lesse remarkable alterations and the Printers Postscript or yours for the excuse of your selfe and him Sir your first answer in the eighth Section of your Catechisme explains the meaning of the third Commandement to be according to the literall sound against perjury or non-performance of promisory oaths mark that Promissory oaths Whereupon your Scholar is immediately prompted to aske whether the third Commandement Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vaine bee no more marke that no more then thou shalt not forsweare thy selfe your answer is No more undoubtedly The God of heaven judge between us nay your severall editions do judge there being not a syllable of the primary intention to be found in three or four editions 2 I say the question is what is meant in the third Commandement Your first answer being an explication of the meaning of the Commandement The second question is whether the third Commandement bee no more that is whether the meaning of it be no more then that thou shalt not forswear thy self this is most cleare to mee 3 The question is not of the intention of a phrase that 's but a harsh expression which must bee explained to bee meant of the intention of the Law-giver and it was Gods intention to forbid foolish and wanton swearing as well as forswearing 4 Wee had not best dispute what is primary and secundary in Gods intention one intention is sufficient and that is to forbid both 5 You are not able to make it good that that 's the primary intention of the phrase and therefore I glanced at that by the way 6 Your doubtfull perhaps was that which troubled mee and surely Sir you doe see what reason you have to blot out perhaps 7 Why doe you say perhaps foolish and wanton sure prophane using of Gods Name is forbidden is it not as sure that foolish and wanton using of Gods Name is forbidden as prophane using of it or is not all foolish and wanton using of Gods name prophane 8 Your remarkable alterations assure mee that you are convinced that you had not said enough against vaine assertory oaths in any of your editions for the words run thus in them all the particular matter of Moses his Law was of promissory not assertory oaths which you alter thus peculiarly of promissory not only of assertory oaths and if that be not a recantation I doe not know what a recantation means 9 I said truly that a doubtfull perhaps would not restraine youths from foolish and wanton using of the Name of God if Preachers bee so timerous to cry Perhaps it is forbidden and that but by reduction neither swearers will grow bold I doe not like your instance in this last Paper when you say that fornication is forbidden in the seventh Commandement by reduction surely Sir there needs no reduction to evince that fornication is forbidden 10 You talke of the words of the Commandement the question is of the meaning of God in the Commandement Gods mind is to forbid foolish swearing in the third Commandement and fornication in the seventh 11 I did not take notice of your argument to prove that forswearing is forbidden in the third Commandement because you prove what I never denyed 12 You say the Oath which you take lawfully in Judicature may come from the Devill in another You are mistaken it is not the oath but the vanity of the oath which comes from the Devill 13 You come not off with honour when you say First that the superaddition which I call imaginary is a command of Christ and afterwards say if it was not a superaddition by a new precept yet there is a superaddition of new light Your Catechisme is it seemes like the Tridentine Canons capable not onely of severall but contrary interpretations I appeale to your Booke againe Lib. 2. Sect. 3. page 93. First your interpretation that Christ came to fill up the Law as a vessell that had some water in it before but now is filled up to the brim and that which is worse of a picture c. Sir was there but a rude draught of morall perfection in the perfect Law of God was it drawne in colors to the life or as it were with a coale Take heed bee not too busie in imitating any Father in a dangerous expression or in excusing the great evacuators of the Law Secondly though you pretend often to bee very carelesse whether you prove a superaddition or improvement of the Law to have been made by Christ yet you confesse that it is the foundation of a weighty superstructure page 94. Pray Sir declare what that superstructure is Is it that you may be justified by obedience to these new superadded precepts and yet say that you are justified by a righteousnesse without the Law say honestly is that the superstructure or is it not 3 Doe you not tell us that light is the state and doctrine of Christianity darknesse of sinne and imperfection observe how untowardly that comparison runs though you do not bring it round yet you goe too farre you say that before Christ there was some mixture of imperfection and some vacuities in the Commandements of God you are speaking of the morall Law you say These vacuities are filled by Christ page 94. These expressions sure have reference to new precepts and not onely to new light if not read page 96. to shew
can pitch on for the occasion of your mistake in any part of this matter though for your affirming that this Catechism gave any Christian liberty of swearing I cannot be just if I speake so favourably To this which I conceived a new mistake in you I must adde another old one in that Section viz. that you will still talk of my severall Editions and not mean that last where the additions are set when you have been so oft assured of this truth of which I can produce the confirmation of severall oaths that I never had the least knowledge of or gave consent to any other but the first Oxford printing of those few Copies and those last additions For the second thing which is so cleare to you 't will bee acknowledged farre from being so if I againe tell you that the meaning of those words of the second question Whether the third Commandement is no more c. is most precisely this whether the literall importance or if you will the literall meaning of the third Commandement bee no more c. and that will well agree with the first question what is the meaning of the old Commandement viz. as 't is delivered by Christ in these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the consequents out of other places Thou shalt performe c. that is againe the literall meaning or the necessary importance of the words produced by Christ agreeable to which is the answer that 't is set to expresse it to be as literally it sounds against perjury c. 3 'T is not very reasonable for you to over-rule all others by saying the question is not when I have as much reason to know as you being so well knowne to him that set the question and affirm it is or because with you the intention of a phrase is a hard expression to conclude from thence that it must bee explained by the intention of the Law-giver whereas I againe tell you that the literall notation of the phrase is the thing that was meant by it and not the intention I meane the totall full intention of the Law-giver 4 For the question of what is primary and secondary in Gods intention which you would not have disputed that you ought to have spared also for againe I say 't is about the primary or secondary notation of the phrase But you by drawing in before the intention of the Law-giver found it an easie change into the intention of God but neither of those is the thing here spoken of 5 I conceive Christs rendring the third Commandement by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is as I was then confident beside others a sufficient proofe that that is the primary intention of the phrase and I have reason to continue in that opinion because you have not dropped any word of answer to it in all your tale of rejoynders 6 For the doubtfull perhaps if I had reason to blot it out you need not challenge me for doing what was rationall the truth is I was not confident that every body was perswaded or could bee convinced that all foolish wanton using of Gods name if without any kinde of swearing was forbidden in that Commandement which onely speakes of taking or lifting up Gods name which with the Hebrewes signifies swearing and if wisemen may bee beleeved nothing else and therefore I was according to my judgement more willing to put in perhaps then to venture a quarrell with any body in that matter but afterwards conceiving reduction would beare it and willing to be as strict in this matter as I could possibly any way justifie God knowes farre from any thought of being accused for giving liberty of swearing I put in idle in stead of the word perhaps and so you have you see the fate of shrifting me I am not permitted to keepe any thing from you and yet desire not to burthen you with a secret or to deliver this my confession under the restraint of any seale to you 7 I have given you grounds to discerne that 't is not so sure that foolish and wanton using of Gods name is forbidden by that Commandement in case that foolish using it bee without oaths as profane or blasphemous using it the former of which you were told I conceived to belong to oaths and those unlawfull oaths and when not to such oaths then to something else which was equivalent to them as to profane signifies to use that commonly or unworthily which is onely to bee used in holy matters and such are oaths resolved to bee and therefore called sacramenta and the using them in common talke or to any but that sacred use is to profane them and so you see that was a causelesse exception also For though some foolish and wanton using of Gods name may be profaning it i.e. profaning Gods name or using it lesse solemnly yet is it not the profaning of a sacramentum or oath which sure is greater then the former 8 Your conclusion truly is not true all that can bee justly concluded of mee from those alterations is this that I began to conceive that what I had said against assertory oaths might bee made more cleare to all though 't were to mee that knew my owne sense said clearely enough before and I ought to be thanked for this care especially by you if to you it was not clear and not so oft to bee reproacht for it And I will once more professe that to my best remembrance I made no one alteration in that Booke but onely on designe to explaine not to alter or retract any thing or to alter the words that they might more fully speak my sense I wish there were any thing would content you but speaking against my conscience I would not much care then if you still call'd it recantation 9 You still mistake foolish and wanton using of Gods name for swearing and I will bee so charitable to you as to thinke this is it makes you so hard to bee satisfied in this matter But I have oft told yon Gods name may bee used without swearing and that not using but taking or lifting up his name signifies that And then why should the perhaps which is not affixt to swearing but to something else contribute any thing toward the swearers boldnesse I beseech you discerne what is so manifest and so oft repeated to you The words there are Profane c. is surely there forbidden and that I have oft shewed you containes every unholy unlawfull oath under it For your dislike of my instance of fornication in the seventh Commandement there is no remedy you will not like any thing that comes from mee and yet 't is sure enough adultery cannot signifie fornication in the primary sense or save by reduction and besides if to the particular of fornication you had a propriety of dislike the other instance of killing would serve the turne and that you might possibly have either lik'd or confuted also Your 10 is but a recitation of