Selected quad for the lemma: reason_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
reason_n	baptism_n	baptize_v	infant_n	2,779	5	9.3007	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A09441	The churches plea for her right, or, A reply to an answer made of Mr. Iohn Paget against William Best and others wherein the maine points of our present differences are handled and the principall causes of our troubles declared / published by William Best.	Best, William, fl. 1635.; Paget, John, d. 1640. Answer to the unjust complaints of William Best.	1635 (1635)	STC 1973.5; ESTC S151	93,797	110

is to shew that members of visible Churches haue onely right unto the publicke ordinances administred therein As for others they are not to be judged that is in those publicke things the Church hath no relation to them nor may I say in this respect haue communion with them And hence I reason thus If the infants in questiō are without then may they not be admitted unto Church communion and so consequently not to baptisme But they are without Therefore c. The proposition is manifest by this Scripture 1. Corint 5.12 The assumption is evident and needeth no proofe After this hee tels us of 3 sorts of persons which may be said to be without 1. Members of a visible Church wanting true faith 2. Infidells and Heathens 3. Those that for the present live not under the Discipline and Gouvernment of some particular Church and yet make profession of the same Religion with the true visible Churches c. This later practise some imperfect communion with them and therefore in some sence may be said to be of such Churches Answ 1. Howsoever the Lord knoweth who are his yet cannot Mr. Paget nor any man else judge men to be without true faith and so no members of the invisible Church specially they standing members of some particular Congregation and therefore his talke here is altogether fruitles and nothing concerneth the place 1. Cor. 5.12 which hee pretendeth to answer 2. The difference which hee puts betweene men without is without warrant of Scripture Paul as Paraeus * Comment on 1. Cor. c. 5. v. 12. p. 272. well observes on this place divides all men into two ranckes the first and greater without the later and lesser within And howsoever th 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for personall gifts and graces are not alike notwithstanding as they stand in relation to a visible Church-state they differ not But are all alike excluded from actuall communion in the publicke ordinances thereof As wee see in a desert or willdernes diversitie of trees some good some bad some are thornes and brambles others are vines and fig-trees nevertheles in respect of a Vineard or Orchard they are quite out of the same a like 3. For his imperfect communion it is a perfect invention of his owne head for the word of God teacheth no such thing Againe where hee sayth they are members of the Church in some sence and not in another this likewise is another of his fictions And observe here how hee pleads for the prophaine multitude just as doe the Papists for their Pope in one respect hee is a man in another respect hee is more then a man Iew. Defen Apol. 6. part c. 20. Divis 3. p. 784. One way hee may erre another way hee cannot erre But not minding to spend much time about the thing for the naming of it is a sufficient resutation this I say a man must either be a member of a particular Church formally otherwise hee cannot be reputed a visible member of it in any sence or respect at all If hee can proove the contrary by the word of God it lyeth him now upon it to doe it In the meane time let the discreet Reader judge whither hee be not guilty of venting new conceits and opinions of his owne And whither by these his new conceits and opinions hee doe not gratifie the Valentinians Marcionites and Gnostikes Who as Irenaeus a Advers Haer. 8.3 c. 7. l. 1. c. 1 reporteth did seeke to bring into the Church mens devises And whither hee doe not gratify the Trent-Councell b Conc. Trid. Sess 4. dec 1 Fathers and the Papists yea moreover the Cabala or Talmud c 4. Esd 14.26.48 of the Rabbins and the Montanists d Tertul. de praeser adve Haer. c. 52. For the sinne for which these chiefly are condemned is because they haue broched many lies and beastly vanities as if all things concerning faith and manners were not contained in the Scriptures Thus wee haue examined Mr. Pagets Answers to the allegations of Scriptures brought by Mr. Davenport Now least hee should complaine against me for some partialitie I thinke it not amisse to write a few words touching that Scripture which hee mentioneth in pag. 44. namely Mat. 3. If hee cannot find a better ground then this to lay his unlimited Baptisme upon surely then the same will never proove to be lawfull For 1. the persons there specifyed through Iohns doctrine powerfully caried home to their consciences had their hearts deeply wounded ‡ Paraeus Comment in Mat. c. 3. v. 6. p. 29. with the sence of sinne and thereupon made open confession thereof 2. That which they did was done freely * Aret. in Mat. 3. pag. 119. and voluntarily 3. The same was accompanied with a desire * Muscul in Mat. 3. p. 24. and purpose of amendment of life 4. They were members of a visible Church 5. The Baptiser was no ordinary Minister Now then how can Mr. Paget hence proove that men not humbled by the word preached not manifesting any sorrow for sinne not shewing any desire of reformation of life not members of any particular Congregation may neverthelesse haue their infants lawfully baptised by a Pastour or Teacher they saying Yea or nodding with the head to some questions imposed upon them or having others to doe it in their behalfe I doe not thinke it strange that hee could not prevaile as hee sayth with Mr. Davenport by such conference in the point for in truth as this allegation so is the rest there of his talke a rope of sand as an overblowne bladder that will burst of it self and vent the wind thereof without pricking And thus much for this Section SECTION V. WHereas Mr. Paget hath so often called upon me by name to proove the Protestation published against him to wit that hee hath bene many wayes injurious to our Congregation My purpose is by the Lords assistance in this and the following Sections to set downe the same And because all our troubles haue proceeded as it were from two causes viz. the Baptisme of Non-members and the denying of the Churches power I shall therefore speake of these two things the more fully And first of the Baptisme Now the reasons which I haue against it are these ARGVMENT I. To breake that sacred order which God hath set in his visible Church for all his Saints to keepe and walke by is a great sinne But to baptize infants whose Parents are not members of any particular Congregation is to breake that order c. Therefore it is a great sinne to doe it The proposition is evident by these Scriptures 1. Cor. 14.33 ult 1. Cor. 5.13 Num. 23.9.10.11.21 and 24.5.6 1. King 14.1.17 Son 6.4 The assumption is as cleare For let it be observed that unto all Church-actions as there is Faith so order also necessarily required And hence is the difference onely betweene Christian-communion and Church-communion to practise Christian-communion there needeth

be feared I say againe those that offend this way may justly feare Gods punishment because hee doth not manifest more displeasure against any sinne then the prophanation of his ordinances nor threatneth to inflict soorer punishments upon any then offenders herein a Levit. 10.2.4 Chron. 13.10 And this is the judgment of sundry of our best Divines viz. Iunius b Anal. expl Levit. c. 10 p. 27. Brentius c Comment in Am. c. 4. v. 4.6 Piscator d Observ 3. in Levit. 10. Paraeus e In Am. 2.12 Cartwright f Catech. pag. 102. and others SECTION VI. HOwsoever I could be well contended in these our differences to deale with Mr. Paget by the Scriptures alone as the booke of all truth knowing as Augustine * De Doct. Christ l. 2. c. 9. sayth that all things concerning faith and manners are contained in them Notwithstanding in regard hee * Pag. 15. vainely boasteth to be caried away with the streame of the Learned who concurre in judgement with him c. I haue thought good to make inquirie about the opinions of men in this matter betwixt us as being loth hee should oppresse the truth and make all men afraid of it by making them beleeve that is desolate and forsaken of all freinds Beginning therefore with our writers I judge it meet and convenient to alleadge in the foremost place the mature sentence of Maister Cartwright In his Reply to D. Whitgift * Pag. 172. l. 1. hee writes thus I doe see that Maister Doctor doth make of the Holy Sacrament of Baptisme which is an entry into the house of God and whereby the familie of God must onely ‡ Note that enter a common passage whereby hee will have cleane and uncleane Holy and prophane as well those that are without the Covenant as those that are within to passe by and so maketh the Church no Houshold but an Inne to receive whosoever commeth * Iust so doth Mr. Paget I will answer therefore all most in as many words as the questions be asked If one of the Parents be neither drunkard nor adulterer the child is holie by vertue of the Covenant for one of the Parents sake If they be both and yet not obstinate in their sinne whereby the Church hath not proceeded to excommunication themselves yet being of the Church * Note their child cannot nor ought not to be refused Againe a few lines after speaking of Papists and other ungodly men Hee affirmeth absolutely that their children ought not to be baptised In the next place wee will consider the Authour of a certaine Booke Pag. 111.112 entituled The Covenant betweene God and man hee there maintaineth this point which wee here professe Baptisme sayth hee is to be administred to them onely that are in the Covenant and that the Reader might understand whom hee meanes to be in the Covenant Hee addeth immediatelie They are such as professe the faith joyne themselves together in a fellowship craue to have their names enrouled and registred in the Church and so partake of the manifould graces of God which are distributed therein To these wee will adde Maister Viret * Ground Reli. p. 230. a rare light of the Gospell and partner with Mr. Farell in planting the Church at Geneva before Calvin came there None sayth hee are to be baptised but the children of the faithfull and beleevers all except these are to be instructed in the doctrine before they be admitted thereunto Piscator likewise is as plaine as can be They onely sayth hee are to be baptised which belong to the Church On Mat. ch 28. Obse in v. 19. For as in old time they circumcised the children of the Iewes because they belonged to the Church and covenant so now c. Mr. Fenner a Doct. of the Sacra sayth the very same so Paraeus b In Mat. 3.5 Erastus c De excom p. 18.24 Melancton d Loc. Com. pag. 383. Keckerman e System Theol. l. 3. p. 453. speaking of the lawfullnes of the baptising of infants gives this as the reason of it viz. because they are members of the Church The like saying wee find in a Booke named a generall confession of Christian Churches Because God receiveth into his Church the children with the fathers Wee say by the authoritie of Christ infants begotten of faithfull Parents ought to be baptized Also Beza * In 1. Cor. 7.14 sayth Such as doe permit all children to be baptized doe a thing unheard off in the primitive Church Neither may Tertullians testimony be omitted speaking as Iunius interprets him of such children as were strangers from the Covenant of God Let them come when they are growne to yeares Let them come when they have learned and are taught wherefore they come Let them then be made Christians when they can know Christ Moreover this is the unanimous confession of all the Reformed Churches to wit that Baptisme appertaineth to such infants as are in the Church and borne of beleevers And for this reason they say they administer unto them the seale of the Covenant viz. because with their Parents they are received into the Church Thus write the Churches of Saxonie a Harm Conf. Art 18. Bohemia b Chapt. 12. France c Art 35. Scotland d Harm Conf. p. 24. Helvetia e Art 20.21 and Belgcik f Art 34. Object 1. But this thing hath been in these Countries a long time practised and therefore it is not meet that so ancient a custome should be laid downe Answ 1. When the truth is knowne sayth Augustine ‡ L. 2. Ep. ad Gaudent let custome give place unto it For * Ambr. l. 4. Virg. wee must not allwayes imitate whatsoever our Elders have allowed but try by the Scriptures whither the things are good which they allowed And thus doe these Churches * A generall Confess of Christ. Church in their writings professe to the world that they judge it of small force in controversie of Religion to be urged with the bare sentenoes of Fathers or with the Decrees of Councills much lesse with received custome or with continuance of time For wee admit they say no other judge in matter of faith then God himself pronounced in his Word 2. By this custome they give the Anabaptists great advantage and nihilate the best argument which our Divines use against them for the lawfullnes of baptising of infants And that this is so let it be observed that the Reason which they in this point doe stick most too is this namely that children of Christians by the same warrant * Calv. in Mat. 18. v. 10. Gerhard Harm Euang c. 12. pag. 352. Cent. 1. l. 2. c. 4. p. 355. D. Willet on Rom. 6. p. 303. Cartwr Christ Rel. c. 37. p. 223. are now to be baptized that the infants under the Law were circumcised Now I haue prooved before

neither was it a seale of the Covenant of grace to Noe and his seed But was commaunded to Abraham and his seed and house-hold and such onely as would be of that Church and partake of the Passeover Therefore it not being commaunded to Noes sonnes such as abode in his faith howbeit scattered afarre of were doubles in the Covenant of grace still and saved as well as wee I say without circumcision for the same was not imposed on them And this is the judgement of learned men viz. Paraeus a Comment in Rom. 3.1 9.4 D. Willet b Comment Rom. ch 3. Q. 1. p. 146 Galatine c Lib. 11. c. 7. pag. 581. and the Hebrew writers d Maimony in Misneth Treat of Kings ch 10 sect 7. Treat circums ch 1. sect 3.6 say as much The next Scripture is Act. 2.39 For the promise is unto you and to your children and to all that are afarre off Even as many as the Lord our God shall call His whole answer hereto is this Though the promise be made unto such as are called yet who can shew that such are not to be counted outwardlie called and in some measure within the priviledge of the Covenant who being themselves alreadie baptized and withdrawing themselves from other sects and Churches doe bring their infants unto the true Church to be baptized being there also readie to make a publicke profession of their faith before the Congregation Thus hee Answ 1. For his phrase here to count men outwardly called I see no warrant for it in all the Scriptures For whomsoever in the judgement of charity wee can judge to be outwardlie called them I take it are by us to be judged inwardly called also Philip. 1.7 1. Cor. 13. I confesse indeed if wee haue respect unto God then it may be said that some are onely outwardlie called But who these some are wee cannot tell and therefore wee may not give sentence in it Ro. 14.14 If hee say that hee intended both then I answer 1. Hee should haue done well to haue spoken out plainly so 2. Then it must follow that all such Parents whose infants hee and others baptise be their conversation never so bad are notwithstanding in his opinion the elect and chosen of God 3. Hee ought not to keepe backe one of them from his Congregation if they desire to be members thereof Againe But if hee say hee judgeth them not to be inwardly called then by his owne confession it must follow that they want true faith and repentance and so hee giveth and that of knowledge holy things to the unworthy and to persons wholy uncapable thereof 2. I cannot tell what hee intendeth by the priviledge of the Covenant if hee meane Baptisme then I answer This ordinance is given to the Church and no person lawfully may be admitted to it unlesse hee be a member thereof * See the two next Sections If hee have any other meaning when I know it I shall be ready to give a further answer to it 3. For what reason doth hee add these words viz. and withdrawing themselves from other sects and Churches Is it not because as I sayd before hee would haue people thinke that it is not their practise to baptise all infants brought unto them Me thinkes if his heart perswades him that his case is good hee should not seeke thus closely to with-draw the Reader from the question but speake out clearely in it and to this purpose say It is the custome of the Dutch Church and my practise also that what infants soever are brought unto us for Baptisme to baptise them be the Parents of them holy or unholie members of any particular Church or not Yea howsoever wee know that the children presented unto us are Bastards yet if the Parents or in their absence some other doe shew a consent unto certaine questions either by nodding with the head or saying Yea Amen or so be it wee put them not backe neither ought wee but give them the holie seale of remission and pardon of finne Indeed this had bene plaine dealing and nothing but the truth And therefore whereas hee tels us of men outwardlie called withdrawing themselves from other sects And againe * Pag. 145. of having more knowledge of the truth c. then some of those that are members of the Church What is this but meere dawbing for what use serves it but like the rough garment to deceive Hee knowes and wee know it too If infants be brought in the manner aforesayd all is well it matters not whose children they be viz. whither English Dutch French c. nor how vile and wicked the Parents of them haue formerly alwayes bene to that houre and time I would not speake so often of this thing but that hee constraineth me to it in regard hee laboureth to hide from the Readers the true knowledge of the point in question But hence let it be considered whither in this hee give not cause of just suspition unto them to thinke that hee is ashamed to appeare a Defendant ‡ So hee cals himself in pag. 146. in the case as it stands simply and nakedly betweene us The last Scripture is 1. Cor. 5.12 For what have I to doe to judge them also that are without doe not yee judge them that are within To this first Mr. Paget answereth It is not plainely discribed how Mr. Davenport applies this sentence to the question in hand it had bene good if hee had shewed how hee had drawne his argument from hence Answ M r Paget among many Disputers had the least reason to make a complaint this way for hee in his writing not onely leaves the maine points in controversy untouched but also for the unnecessary matters which hee bringeth in they are such oracles or rather riddles as to understand them a man had need hee were either another Oedipus or had hee himself present to expound them Notwithstanding hee should have remembred that hee being the doer of the things in this controversy the burden of prooving lay directly on his shoulders And therefore it had bene his part plainely to have demonstrated from the Scripture that which hee affirmeth touching the Classis and Baptisme for one testimony or argument rightly drawne from the Apostolicall writings to justify these assertions will easily draw us to acknowledge them But till then though hee write ten volumes more and each of them ten times greater then this yet never shall hee be able to convince the conscience of any indifferent Reader in the points which hee hath undertaken to be a Defendant to wit 1. that particular Congregations are to be dependent bodies and to stand under other Ecclesiasticall authoritie out of themselves 2. That infants may be baptized whose Parents are not joyned to any particular visible Church But to the point This Scripture fitly serves to proove the point in hand for the scope and drift of the Apostle there