Selected quad for the lemma: reason_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
reason_n	answer_n	objection_n	reply_n	3,529	5	13.8745	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A49134	Vox cleri, or, The sense of the clergy concerning the making of alterations in the established liturgy with remarks on the discourse concerning the Ecclesiastical Commission and several letters for alterations : to which is added an historical account of the whole proceedings of the present convocation.	Long, Thomas, 1621-1707.	1690 (1690)	Wing L2986; ESTC R1029	58,819	80

not most certainly the Parliament will This man talks as once Cromwel did who having seized the Keys of the Parliament house clapt them up and said He had now the Parliament in his Pocket Most certainly the present Parliament will not truckle under such a degenerate Usurper and instead of thanks incur the Odium of the Nation seeing this very Author says If it come to their hands they may instead of Circumstantials alter Essentials and make a breach on Religion it self to the undoing of all and this I think is a Scandalum Magnatum and this he fears will be done not only in the case of Orders but other Particulars which he could instance in of which the least mischief would be totally to extinguish all Convocations for the future and resolve the whole power of the Church into the Two Houses of Parliament and fix the reproach of the Papists on us That our Religion is a Parliamentary Religion For my part I should fear the loss of my Ears if I should have thus slurd that Great Council this would make what he would have the Church to be Felo's de se This Man as other venomous Animals keeps the sting in his Tail or the conclusion of his Libel in Answer to a Third Objection That ha● necessary soever his Reasons befor Alterations yet it is time for it when so many of the Fathers of the Church whom he acknowledgeth to be excellent and most Religious persons and other eminent Men of the Clergy by their Suspension stand incapacitated to act in this matter and if this be now done when their consent cannot be had they will renounce it all and by sticking to the present Form create a new Schism in the Church and this he hears is the reason much insisted on to defeat the design and intent of this Convocation But first I believe whatever may be the design of some Men is not the intent of the Convocation they may intend the better Establishment of the present Convocation they may intend the better Establishment of the present Constitution the Reformation of the Lives and Manners of some of the Clergy by new Canons and Censures to be provided against the Ignorance and Idleness of some and the Irregularity and scandalous Behaviour of others who either already are or hereafter shall be admitted into the Ministry of the Church But let us attend to his Answer to this Objection which we have p. 24. Is it possible to imagine saith he that those who have so eminently signaliz'd themselves in defence of the Church and been Confessors for it should turn their hands against it No It is affirmed before that if they were admitted into the Convocation they would agree to the intended Alterations and if any should then seperate they are such as are most perversely bent against Reason and Conscience to do all the wickedness they can to gratifie a peevish humour and therefore he says they that make this Objection have a great deal to Answer for the injury which they do them by this slanderous and vile Imputation For my part I cannot be so confident that those excellent Men would be so forward to make such Alterations as this Author says they would and I see the Objectors are not without Reason on their side for if they are ready to suffer the loss of all that they have rather than to offend their Consciences by assenting to some Civil Alterations in the State which what the Particulars be I cannot imngine and therefore cannot judge of them it may well be supposed that they would be so tenderly conscientious in respect to the Constitutions of the Church as not to assent to any Alterations that concern the safety honour and beauty thereof without important Reasons But what if they should adhere to the old Form and not yield to the intended Alterations why then our Author hath advised for their ruine For their number saith he is so small their Proselytes will be so few and the Resentments of the State will be so heavy on them that they will be immediately crushed and fall to nothing Which will be very hard measure that such excellent Men should not be allowed so much Liberty of Conscience as Anabaptists and Quakers are though they be known to be Men of sound Doctrine and of peaceable and harmless Lives But it is yet their happiness that such as our Author is are not made their Judges for how we would deal with those Scare-crows as he terms them which Knaves 〈◊〉 lift up but none but Fools can be frighted with would probably be 〈◊〉 like the Knave than the Fool. And to conclude he thinks his Argument of Absolute Necessity so plain that there can be no opposition but from them that are afraid of their Church-power and Church-promotions when they hear of Reformation And in truth that word was made an Engine of great mischief in the former Age 1642 when the Church-men suffered more than they fear now under the present Government whatever this Author and his Abetters may design for he seems to threaten us That if we will not be contented with a moderate and just Reformation he knows not but the Nation may take the matter into their own hands and bring us to that of Scotland which he says we are so much afraid of and deprive us of all And then farewel our Church-promotions and all their Revenues which there will not want other Men to share among themselves when such a thorow Reformation shall be made as the Scots once procured and have again designed And therefore I dare not trust the promise of this single person whoever he be for I fear he hath not been as faithful to his former solemn engagements as he ought That upon our Alterations we shall find all the good success that can be desired because as he says there are appearances at present to the contrary and they of such an Aspect as will much abate the Credit which he expects should be given to his promises we had once very great promises from such a sort of Men what a glorious King they would make of King Charles the First and they did it but it was by Martyrdom and a godly Reformation was promised in the Church but it proved a thorow Desolation of Episcopacy Liturgy and all that was Sacred and as it was their fault then so it will be ours now if we by our too great credulity shall expose our selves to ruine a second time on a bare promse of a faithless Man Thus Sir I have reflected on these two Killing Letters and shall not concern my self to enquire the Authors They may be Papists who by such Arts seek to divide that they may destroy us nor can I perceive any other end in either Letter but the carrying on a design of Self-interest and Secular advantages on the ruine of the Church The first Author discovers his palpable Ignorance the second his visible Malice The one fights as Don

is inferiour to many of our Country-Ministers as will evidently appear by his handling the particulars which deserves any remark He begins with what he understands will be first offered to the Convocation to wit The Reformation of the Kalender where he would have the Apocryphal Lessons exchanged for as many taken out of the Canon of Scripture as by the Bishops and other Divines Assembled to consider of that matter 1641 He doth not say was agreed for I find in an Answer to a Petition presented to the King's Majesty by above a Thousand Ministers as it was there said that there was no such concession made for pag. 14. the Answer to the Objection says That they are grosly ignorant if they know it not or wilfully malicious and turbulent if knowing it to be lawful they yet oppugne the Reading of the Apocryphal Writings in the Church Non ad confirmationem fidei sed ad reformationem morum As the Ancient Fathers speak and approve for which they quote Hier. Preface in Pro. Cyprian in Symb. in whose days it seems they were so read And they add That the Articles of Convocation and the Preface before the Apocryphal Books in the English Bibles do directly shew adding that they give light to the Divine History And in the Account given of the Proceedings of the Commissioners Printed 1661 where the same Objection was made p. 55. and the reason given for it Because the Scriptures contain all things necessary either in Doctrine to be believed or in Duty to be practised They answer That such a Reason would exclude all Sermons as well as Apocrypha And why then so many Sermons if notwithstanding the sufficiency of Scripture Sermons be necessary There is no reason why these Apocryphal Lessons should not be useful most of them containing excellent Discourses and Rules of Morality It is heartily to be wished that Sermons were as good and to leave them out were to cross the Practice of the Church in former Ages And the Reply of the Dissenters at that time is observable We asked not say they that no Apocryphal Chapter may be read in the Church but that none may be read as Lessons If you cite the Apocrypha as you do other Humane Writings or read them as Homilies we speak not against it and of this neither those Dissenters nor any ordinary Country-Minister could be ignorant the Church having declared That they are not of equal Authority with the Scriptures which is known to their own People who therefore will not have them bound with their Bibles besides no part of the Apocrypha is read on Sundays but on the Week-days when there are too few to hear them and those few better instructed than to think them Canonical But though this may satisfie all sober persons yet I do here protest That were it not that the Dissenters have given us an assurance that tho' these and many other Alterations should be made it would give them no satisfaction nor bring them into our Communion I would use all the Interest I have for such Alterations and for that end also part with many of the Ceremonies but of this there is a deep silence or rather a loud dissent The Letter adds If those Apocryphal Chapters were anciently read so were Hermes Pastor and Clemens Rom. and the Argument holds for reading these Answ The Church have anciently disused them but if they were now read or the Epistles of Ignatius and Polycarp or some select Chapters out of King Charles the Martyr's 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 instead of the Sermons on the Week-days Lectures in which many greater Absurdities tending to Schism and Sedition are injected into the minds of the People I believe it would be much more for the Edification of them Object If they i. e. the Apocryphal Lectures were read then we know what Mischief ensued from it c. Answ We know too what Mischief accidentally arose from Reading the Scriptures must they therefore be laid aside But the Church of Rome hath made them Canonical Answ The People do believe that many of those false Doctrines many Falshoods and dangerous Opinions which are held forth to them in their Conventicles are as true as the Gospel and why are not they laid aside when we know what Mischiefs some Sermons Preached in 41 and 42 produced Bell and the Dragon with Tobit and his Dog could not have done such dismal feats The next thing insisted on p. 6. is The Revising of the Psalter added to the Liturgy which seems not so defensible there being a more Correct Copy in our Hands and an inconsistancy between the two Translations being observed by the Vulgar Answ Though there be Variations in the two Translations yet they do not contradict one the other but rather explain and give light to each other as the divers Commentaries of Learned Men do 2. The Translation of the Liturgy-Psalter is taken mostly from the Septuagint or Greek Copies which that Church still observes and it is observable that our Saviour and the Apostles when they quote the Scripture of the Old Testament to confirm their Doctrine do frequently make use of this Translation though the Hebrew was as well known to them as the Greek 3. There are Variae Lectiones even in the Hebrew Copies which the want of Points hath occasioned concerning which there are yet great Disputes among the Learned Criticks 4. The best Translations have many Defects and Inconsistancies occasioned by the various Significations of the Hebrew words as the word Barach signifies both to Bless and to Curse So that though the one should be granted to be more correct than the other yet because the one serves as a short Paraphrase to explain the other and the People have the Use of both this Exception is a meer Cavil And there is some weight in what the Letter observes That the People have many of them learnt the Psalms as they are daily read Memoritur which if disused they would soon forget And for this cause our Saviour made use of the Septuagint Translation because it was best known to that Generation And if the Septuagint Translation needs a Review so doth the other which is not so Correct but it may be amended in many places and so will the best to the end of the World That the Author of the Letter may let nothing pass he omits not the Use of the Ring in Marriage tho' he says It is agreed to be but a Civil Right And therefore I leave him to be civilly treated by the Women Page 8. The Letter comes to treat of our Ceremonies concerning which he says There is a difficulty to proceed in our Dissentions for without quitting or altering the Dissenting Party is not to be brought into the Church and without retaining them many of our own will hardly be kept in it And he considers That the one may occasion a Schism from the Church the other a Schism in it Now a Schism in the Church will