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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88107	The nevv quere, and determination upon it, by Mr. Saltmarsh lately published, to retard the establishment of the Presbyteriall government, examined, and shewed to be unseasonable, unsound, and opposite to the principles of true religion, and state. Whereunto is annexed a censure of what he hath produced to the same purpose, in his other, and later booke, which he calleth The opening of Master Prinnes Vindication. And an apologeticall narrative of the late petition of the Common Councell and ministers of London to the Honourable Houses of Parliament, with a justification of them from the calumny of the weekly pamphleters. / By John Ley, one of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.	1645 (1645)	Wing L1885; Thomason E311_24; ESTC R200462	96,520	124

* M. Robert Baylie his Disswasive from the errours of the time wherein the Tenets of the principall Sect of the Independ are drawne together in one Mappe Printed for Sam. Gellibrand at the Brasen Serpent in Pauls Church-yard exact delineation or description of the whole body of Schismaticall and Hereticall noveltie drawne by a very skilfull and faithfull hand and newly published to undeceive the English especially the people of the City of whom many are miserably misled and more will be if both Magistrates and Ministers doe not watchfully overlooke them and seriously sot themselves to prevent their increase Wherein your Lordships prudence and power beginning betime and continuing your care in a proportionable tenour untill your Office expire which is the expectation of all that know the soliditie of your judgement and stability of your spirit may prevaile very much though it be but for an yeare for how great matters in how short a time have beene attempted and accomplished by that worthy Generall Sr. Thomas Fairfax undertaking and prosecuting the warre with a couragious and constant resolution not as a Trade to enrich himselfe but as a Remedy to deliver his Countrey from partly present and partly imminent miseries And for that purpose your Lordships Sword in the City may be of very great use as his in the field and that with both the Sword of the Lord may be associated as with the Sword of Gideon Iudg. 7.18 and his power may still support your state protect your person and promote your proceedings to most happy successe is the hearty desire and shall be the daily prayer of Your Honours most humble servant JOHN LEY An Advertisement to the Reader to prevent mistaking in the variety of Petitions IN the Postscript of the late Answer to Mr. Burton from Aldermanbury entituled The doore of truth opened there is an Apologetical Reply to his tart reproofe of a London Petition in these words There is one thing that Mr. Burton mentioneth in the * Pag. 2. ante med Narrative which though it concerns not Aldermanbury yet we must not wholly bury it in silence and that is concerning the late large Petition for the speedy establishment of Religion Of which he speakes very dishonourably as also of the Petitioners as of men led with blind obedience and pinning their soules upon the Priests sleeve We leave it to the Petitioners to answer for themselves For our parts we conceive that no Reader unlesse blinded with prejudice can charge them with blind obedience For the Petitioners doe not desire to have the Modell of that Reverend Assembly established but the government of Christ established a Modell whereof c. These words a Modell whereof c. come in with a Parenthesis and the sentence is compleat without them all that they affirme about the Modell is that the Reverend Assembly hath framed a Modell of the Government of Christ according to their ability and presented it to the Parliament And who but he that hath pinned his faith upon an Independents sleeve can except against this But if Mr. Burton be displeased with the Modell of the Reverend Assembly we would intreat him that he at last after so long expectation would set forth his Modell Which some have mistaken conceiving both parties speake of the late Petition sent from the Common Councell of London whereas there be these differences betwixt them 1. That Petition is of a different style tenour and date from this of the Common Councell for it was brought forth to light before this later was conceived 2. That hath the Parenthesis a Modell whereof the Assembly of Divines c. specified in the Exception and Answer the Petition of the Common Councell hath no such clause in it as I am informed for yet I have not seen it 3. That was never presented by the Petitioners to the Parliament this of the Common Councell was 4. The Petition of the Common Councell was not printed that was priuted both in a single sheet and in the Booke called Truth it 's Manifest p. 130. Which I note in this place because having denyed that the Petition of the Common Councell was yet printed a Gentleman of qualitie said he would shew it me presently and produced for proofe the Booke forementioned 5. Lastly the former Petition had not so good acceptance with the Parliament as the later partly hath had and partly may be further hoped for when the Honourable Houses have opportunitie to make their returne unto it The Contents Section I. OF the Authour and Title page of the Quere and Deter mination upon it Page 1. Sect. II. Of the Title page p. 3. Sect. III. The matter and scope of the Quere and resolution upon it p. 7. Sect. IIII. Reasons against the present settling of government taken from conscience answered p. 12. Sect. V. The Argument against the speedy settling of Church government taken from e●ample of the New Testament in generall answered p. 14. Sect. VI. The Argument against the speedy establishment of Church government taken from Christs description answered p. 17. Sect. VII Master Colemans experimentall exceptions against the severity and rigour of the Presbyteriall government answered p. 20. Sect. VIII The Argument against the speedy setting up of the Presbyteriall government taken from Christs practise answered p. 23. Sect. IX Reasons taken from rules and considerations of prudence answered p. 26. Sect. X. The Negative Argument taken from want of experience of the New Clergie answered p. 32. Sect. XI Objections against the Reasons for the not establishing Church government propesed and answered as Objections against M. Saltm his Tenet in the Quere with Replyes to his answers The first Observation his Answer and the Reply unto it p. 36. Sect. XII Objection second answered with a Reply to that Answer p. 38. Sect. XIII An additionall Answer to some exceptions of M. Saltm taken out of M. Prins Vindication against the present establishment of Church government in his late Book entituled The opening of M. Prins New Book called a Vindication p. 45. Sect. XIIII The Objections taken from a supposed needlesnesse of the Presbytery answered p. 47 Sect. XV. Of M. Colemans Interi●ist is all Magistracle p. 51. Sect. XVI The Objection of eager contestation for Church Discipline and 〈…〉 p. 53. Sect. XVII The Objection of inefficacie for holinesse of life in such as live under the Presbytery answered p. 57. Sect. XVIII Shewing what might be retorted upon the Antipresbyteriall party but concluding for unitie and peace with allegation of M. Burroughs his propositions of reconciliation and accord and some other particulars tending thereto p. 61. Sect. XIX Further grounds and hopes of union in the Churches of the Sister Kingdomes of England and Scotland with Answers to the Objections that are made against it p. 64. Sect. XX. An Appendix to the precedent Examination being an Apologeticall Narrative of the Petitions of the Common Councell of the City and Ministers of London presented to both the

most in government we may soone discerne dispositions Answer But is it not an hotter Controversie that is now moved and in motion and in commotion touching Civill Government And for the discoverie of dispositions thereupon it may be so without any fault in those that are for government in question but not without a crime in such as oppose it or despise it in any thing wherein it is consonant to Gods word and found reason subordinate to it especially when in a great part it is settled already and they who are in authoritie are intentively imployed to bring it to perfection But saith he * § 9. p. 5. Is it good parting with the stakes yet while there is such quarrelling for them and when one party cannot but take it for an iniury if wholly given to the other This Question prosupposeth and importeth an evennesse and equality as betwixt parties that lay wagers or play matches and lay downe stakes upon equall termes whereas the difference indeed is betwixt Government and no Government and betwixt the high Court of Parliament and all the most orthodox Churches and Divines of the Christian world on the one side and a small and inconsiderable partie in respect of them on the other who for the most part though there be some of them of good note both for learning and life might with good Decorum be brought to the Barre to receive consure from those with whom they cannot take upon them contestation without arrogant presumption so it cannot be an injurie to resolve for government against them no more no nor so much then against the Bishops ill government who had possession of Prelacie by a prescription Legally authorised whereas those who are against the government desired have no possession or prescription nor pretence of Law for their Anarchie against it And therefore if the Bishops had struggled more for their chaires in the Church and their seats in the Parliament then they did and had beene all of them as obstinate as two of them were * B. W. of L. C. B. W. of L. who said they would be hangd at the Court gate before they would yeeld up their votes and places in the House of Peeres they had beene more excusable in that contumacie then most of those who wilfully withstand the Presbyterie resolved on The last part of this proofe is that * §. 9. p. 5 6. It is to be feared saith he there is too much of man because the by as runnes most in these times towards the truth of Government and many others are wholly set by which might well be looked upon with it which if there were not a principle in man more fitted for a truth of this kind then any other would not be But every truth hath its age and season this onely for Caution Answer Most of this may be granted and nothing gained to Mr. S. his cause if there be two much of man in the Controversie it is like to be in those who despise Government who are presumptuous and selfe willed and are not afraid to speake evill of Dignities a Pet. 2 10. If the by as run most in these times toward the truth of Government it is but as it should be and as it was when the Prelaticall power was opposed and suppressed by the Parliament and if the by as were wryed aside from the truth it were rather to be noted as matter of exception then that it bendeth towards the truth especially since he saith a little after there is a principle in man more fitted for a truth of this kind then any other and if as he saith every truth hath its age and season surely then this truth of Presbyterian Government is seasonable now For the Bishops Government being put downe it is necessary some other should be set up and before all other the Presbyteriall as most agreeable to the word of God and the example of the best reformed Churches and it is yet more seasonable to establish it with speed because for want of it in part are so many divisions and distractions in Church and State And if that be true which he saith that many other truths are wholly set by which might be looked upon with it it may be the fault of those who set themselves too much against that Government who mistaking the truth and integritie of it make it their maine worke to revile and reproach it to make it odious among the people before they have any true understanding thereof But for such as are most for the Presbyterie I am sure they are intentively studious to discover deliver and defend all other truths of faith and manners which make for salvation as well as for the setting up or settling of the Government in question The end of this Paragraph is This onely for Caution Then neither for proofe nor reproofe and I wish he had had more caution in his mind for if so he would not so hastily have set upon the Government as too hastily either intended or attempted and more in his paper and then I should have spared some labour for he would have had fewer faults and a shorter refutation would have served the turne SECT XI Objections against the Reasons for the not establishing Church Government proposed and answered as Objections against Mr. Saltm his Tenet in the Quere with Replies to his answers HAving plaid the assaylant against the Church Government hitherto but without any impediment or impeachment of moment he now turneth Defendant and takes up the Bucklet to ward off objections against his opinion but whereas there be many such he meddles but with two onely and those two such as he thought himselfe best able to answer Obiection 1. * p. 7. But the Temple was builded with all speed in Nehemiabs time and therefore c. And Haggai calls to the building of it Is it time Hag. 1.4 To which be makes this answer ● Ibid. Yea but the materiall patterne wa● m●re clearely left and knowne then the Gospel patterne the other were more in the letter these more in the Spirit now there must be a proving of all things else there may be more haste then good speed and the Temple may be built by a false patterne as well as a true and then better no building then no right Cedar to build with and there were Prophets then who knew the periods of times and could prophecie as Haggai and Zechariah but none so exactly now and these knew both the fashion and the time for building yet who ought not to hasten the Temple if the Timber be ready and if the Prophets and Apostles be there for a foundation and Jesus Christ for a chiefe coruer stone Ephes 2. Reply That he may not be thought to side with Sanballat and Tobiah against the speedy building of the Temple who scorned and derided the expedition of Nehemiah and his brethren in being so forward to the worke as if they meant to make

reason and makes as much against the former Protestations of the Parliament and the late Covenant of three Kingdomes yea against all assurances of either kind as against the Government in question for there will be alwayes some that will be scrupled with any thing that is publiquely established Obiect But saith he * § 1. p. 3. The people are generally unt aught in the nature and grounds of this Church Government and therefore to put upon them the practice of that whereof it is impossible they can be fully perswaded in their minds is to put them upon a necessitie either of sinne or of misery To which The Answer is so easie and ready that it may be some matter of marvaile an ingenious man as Mr. Saltmarsh is should make such an Objection for 1. The Church Government desired is no other then for the chiefe parts of it hath good warrant from the word of God 2. For what is of lesse moment if it be not directly deduced out of Scripture it is not repugnant to the Scripture but agreeable to grounds of prudence and the example of the best reformed Churches 3. For the practice of Government it belongeth not to the peoples part as he puts the case to be active in it but to the Ministers and Elders and they are not to enter upon the exercise of their authoritie before they be sufficiently informed in it and thence it is that though there be an Order given for it they that should officiate in it make a pause and deliberate upon it before they set upon the practise of it 4. For the people so farre as concerneth their compliance or correspondence with the government they are to be instructed in it before they yeeld submission to it for that purpose the Government is proposed by parts and by degrees so as it may be best apprehended by all and the Preachers appointed to teach both the offices of the Gevernours and the duties of the people so as each may performe his part without scruple or doubting 5. If any after this information out of weaknesse remaine unsatisfied be is not as this Writer resolveth put upon such a dangerous Dilemma as either to make choyce of sin by obeying or of misery by refusall to obey for such as not out of wilfulnesse or faction but out of tendernesse of conscience cannot comply with the rule are not presently to be ruled with the rod 1 Cor. 4.21 but with meeknesse to be instructed though they be contrary minded 2 Ti●i 2.25 and with so much longsuffering and patience to be forborne as may not be injurious to the truth of God and prejudiciall to the peace of the Church 6. Whereas he would have the generall ignorance of the people touching government a roason to suspend the setting of it up it may rather be pleaded for expedition in the worke for if it be not set up the people cannot know it practically and while it is unknowne unto them it is impudently slandered by some and impotently yeelded by many others to be injurious and tyrannicall whereas if it had beene experimentally knowne as it is it would have beene before now both honourable and amiable in the eies of them who are not prepossessed with prejudice against it 7. For those two Texts which he alleadgeth for deferring the Government and if there be any weight in them as to that purpose they make against it not for a time onely but for ever I commend to his consideration and wish he would preach and presse to his people when the government is set up as I hope it shortly will be or rather before-hand to prepare them for it such Scriptures as these We beseech you brethren to know them which labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you and to esteeme them very highly in lo●e for their works sake 1 Thes 5.12 13. Let the Elders that rule well be accounted worthy of double honour especially they who labour in the word and doctrine 1 Tim. 5.17 Remember them which have the rule over you who have spoken to you the word of God Heb. 13.7 vers 17. Obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves for they watch for your soules as they that must give account that they may doe it with i●y and not with griefe Thus much for his first Paragraph which may deserve the first place and a fuller answer then any of the rest because it brings more appearance of proofe both by Scripture and reason then any of the other SECT IIII. Reasons against the present setling of Government taken from Conscience answered THe next reason for adjourning or putting off the Government to a further time is taken from Conscience and that in two respects 1. In that the conscience hereby that is by a speedy setting up of government is mis-guided to a compliance with a * § 2. p. 3. Principle of Popery against the Nationall Covenant Answ It is very strange that any one who remembreth the Nationall Covenant as he taketh upon him to doe that citeth it wherein we are bound sincerely really and constantly to endevour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdomes of England and Ireland in Discipline and Government in the first Article of it should from the same Covenant plead for delay in the establishment thereof and yet more strange that he should doe it under the title of Popery which in the next Article of the Covenant is disavowed which if his reasoning were right were such a contradiction as would argue the composers and penners of the Covenant to be men of most pitifull simplicitie But wherein appeareth this Popery Why in * § 2. p. 3. bringing the people under a Popish implicit obedience and he confirmes it by experience * § 2. ibid. We know it by e●eperience saith he that the people have beene ever devoted to any thing that the State sets up all the disputes or conscience of the common people ending in this Whether it be established by Law or no and going usually no higher or further then a Statute or Act of State for their Religion To which I answer 1. For that he saith of implicit Popish obedience it is very impertinently applied to the Discipline or Government in question since as I have shewed in what I said to his first reason it is so ordered already that therein instruction must preced or goe before observation nor shall any one be bound to act in that particular any further then according to his light 2. For his observation upon experience it maketh as much against matter of Doctrine as mattes of Discipline and more against the Authority of the Parliament then the authority of Ministers since They not Ministers make Statutes and establish Lawes and if the people be so apt to idolize a Statute or an Act of State but I beleeve they more often offend in defect then in exeesse of respect unto them it will be

proved or to be proved but they prove nothing 2. That conformity betwixt materiall and spirituall things is not to be carried too far similitudes as the common saying is run not on foure feet 3. There is this difference betwixt the building of the spirituall and material Temple that in the spiritual there is nothing but what is homogencall and of one kind all squared and living stones but in the materiall the foundation and walls are made up not onely of hewen and squared stones but of others yea many pieces of stone which are but as rubbish have their use in the materiall building 4. And yet wee may say of those whom hee accounts rough and unhewen stones that they are in part squared towards a conformity to the rest of the building in that they submit to the Gospell rule in many particulars though they be not so exactly squared or so perfectly polished as others 5. Vpon this difference the best stones are not to be taken from the rest to make up a building by themselves as in separated Congregations many pretend but performe not for of those who separate from others as from profane persons divers are not onely rather gilded Hypocrites then golden Christians but they are sundry of them such as for want of charity and humility Christ would not owne for his disciples Ioh. 13.35 Matth. 11.29 and who for railing and covetousnesse and other raigning sinnes of an haynons guilt ought to be discarded from Christian society as well as a fornicator a drunkard or an idolator 1 Cor. 5.11 Lastly To conclude with a Negative Argument from the Now Testament as he began his fourth Paragraph and against him it is good Logick as an Apocryphall Text is good proofe against a Papist Let him shew any example of such a separation as he aymes at in the New Testament where when there was a mixture of holy and prophane as there was in the Church of Corinth 1 Cor. 11.21 the Apostles or Evangelicall persons gathered out the holy part to make a separated Church from the r●st as many doe now adayes That which followeth concerning Axes and Hammers not heard in the building of the Temple of Salomon hath a mysterious truth in it but not to the purpose for which he produceth it for it importeth that the spirituall Temple is built up chiefly by the soft whisperings and secret motions of the Spirit whereof men heare no noyse nor can take notice and what is this to what hee would have SECT VI. The Argument against the speedy establishment of Church Government taken from Christs description answered THen for particular example he propounds Christs example and therein observeth first his Description secondly his Practise For the former he saith The setting up of Government * §. 6. p. 4. is against the nature of Christs Description of himselfe and against that sutablenesse he presseth for among all such as should submit to his Commandements He shall not strive nor cry neither shall any one heare his voyce in the streets Matth. 12.12 My yoke is easie and my burden is light Matt. 11.29 His Commandements are not grievous neither doe men put new wins into old bottles Answer In these words we have reason pretended and Texts of Scripture annexed as sutable to it but how impertinently will be easily apprehended by such as please to observe 1. That his reason if it have any force is not against a speedy Government alone but against Government at any time for if it be contrary to the nature of Christ it is lyable to that exception whensoever it is set up and worthy presently to be cryed down againe but we adde further 2. That if there bee a difference betwixt the Description of Christ and Church Government it is no marvell for Christ as a Saviour came to suffer to be under government both just and unjust He made himselfe of no reputation and tooke upon him the forme of a servant and humbled himselfe and became obedient to death even the death of the Crosse Philip. 2.7 8. which is crosse and quite contrary to the condition of Government 3. That neither is Christ so remisse as not to take upon him a Government in his Church for he is the Head of it Ephos 1.22 and the Head doth may nay and must governe the body nor is his Government so meeke but that he hath an iron red to dash in pieces like a patters vessell Psal 2.9 those that are wilfully wicked as well as a golden Scepter to call those into his prefence who are gracious in his eyes Esther 5.2 and though comming to suffer he descended to the low condition of a servant Philip. 2.7 as hath been said and to the lowest kind of service washing of the feet of his owne servants Ioh. 13.5 yet sometimes he tooke upon him to be a Lord and as Lord of his house with a scourge of small cords drave the chafferers out of the Temple and the oxen and sheepe sold by them there and overthrew the Tables of the money-changers Ioh. 2.14 15. And that we may not thinke he is made all of lenity and meeknesse even the●● where he is called a Lambe a formidable wrath is ascribed to him which maketh mighty men and military men free men and bond 〈◊〉 to seeke to hide themselves from him th●● sitteth in the Throne and from the wrath of the Lambe Rev. 8.15 ● Nor is the Government or Discipline so unsuitable in regard of severity to the description of Christ as in the protended disparity is sluggested for it is to be administred with the spirit of meeknesse in admonition to such as are humble and conscientious in their way as well as with the rod of Discipline to those who are 〈…〉 ● For the places of Scripture produced in the close of this Paragraph they are all quite besides the Question or very little to the purpose For which they are brought for the first Matth. 12.19 Hee shall not strive nor cry nor shall any man heare his voice in the streets it sheweth the singular patience and meeknesse of our Saviour when he was under the pursuit and persecution of his enemies as in the 53. of Esay he was oppressed he was afflicted yet he opened not his mouth he is brought as a Lambe to the slaughter and as a sheepe before the shearers is dumbe so opened he not his mouth v. 7. Yet at other times he tooke liberty to speake and authority to reprove very sharply as Matth. 23. from vers 13. to 35. as if out of his mouth had come the sharpe two edged sword in the apparition to Iohn the Divine Revel 1.16 For the second place My yoke is easie and my burden light Matth. 11.29 and the third His Commandements are not grievous 1 Ioh. 5.3 which is so like unto the former that one answer may serve for both they make nothing against a speedy but against a grievous Government and yet surely though the Evangelicall yoke of

their opinions and forward to engage in termes of contradiction and when they are once heated with a fond affection to their owne fancies which is the more blowne up by the breath of an opposite they are not masters of their owne words nor can they exercise any reasonable rule either upon their spirits or speeches and sometimes they second their precipitancie in both with such a pertinacie of will and stoutnesse of stomach that they choose rather to cast firebrands about to put Nations and Churches into a dangerous combustion then quietly to compose any personall quarrell of their owne though never so inconsiderately stirred up by them this is the extremitie of that malignant and mischievous practice which God professeth especially to hate Prov. 6.19 And for the opprobrious termes he complaineth of if he had the patience to beare them when he heard them and did not reciprocate one contumely for another as some say he did he should have had the prudence and to that should have advised him had I been of his counsell to have buried them in silence and not for that which was but whispered in the eare to propose it to publique view that every one may read the reproach of K. and F. put upon him in print SECT VIII The Argument against the speedy setting up of the Presbyteriall Government taken from Christs practise answered A Second exception reduced to the example of Christ in his practise is that * § 3. p. 4. Christ Iesus himselfe could as easily have setled his Government by miracle as any can now by Civill power if there had beene such a primary or morall necessitie of establishing it so soone upon a people scarce enlightened for any part of it But we see the contrary first in himselfe he taught long and Iohn before him and so the Disciples and the gifts for Government were not given till he ascended and the modell for Government was not brought forth but by degrees and as people fell in and were capable of the yoke and would mould more easily to the Commandements of Christ and whether then or no is yet a Question which some have sit the debates to though not with me who am fully perswaded of the power of order which the Apostle ioyed to behold though a power with as little dominion in government as tradition in worship Answer 1. The acts and times for the Divine providence towards his Church are various and the reasons of them many times reserved to God he could no doubt have governed his Church in the first age of the world by the scepter of his written word but there was no Scripture till God wrote his Decalogue or ten Commandements in Tables of stone Exod. 31.18 and if the Booke of Genesis were written before it was yet after the birth of Moses for he was the Penman of it who was not borne till the yeare of the world 2373. all this while God had his Church and no written Law for the government of it Yet when he brought the Israelites out of Egypt which was in the yeare 2454 the next yeare after he gave direction for the building of a Tabernacle and to the Morall Law forementioned added Lawes Ceremoniall and Iudiciall divers of which were not to be put in execution untill their coming into Canaan which was well neere fortie yeares afterward so farre was he before-hand with the government of his Church of the new edition 2. Whereas he saith that Iesus Christ could have as easily setled the government of his Church by miracle as any can now by Civill power we grant it yea and more that he could have done it without a miracle and yet more that he did so when he chose Apostles and gave them the keyes of the Kingdome of heaven Matth. 16.19 for remission and retaining of sinnes Ioh. 10.23 and set downe a rule of graduall proceeding with offenders Matt. 18.15 16 17. 3. If it be said that this was late in the Ministery of our Saviour and therefore we must take his example not onely for the thing it selfe but for the time this will make more for the Anabaptisticall delay of Baptisme then for delay in Discipline or Government for he was not baptized untill he was about thirty yeares of age Luk. 3.23 but he began to set up a government of his Church within the compasse of his publique Ministery which at the most lasted but foure yeares space and many learned men confine it to three yeares and an halfe or thereabouts As for Iohn Baptist his time was shorter for he was beheaded in the second of the foure yeares forementioned nor did it belong to his Office to set up a government in the Evangelicall Church but to prepare the way of the Lord by preaching repentance unto the people Matth. 3.3 Isa 40.3 4. Whereas he saith the gifts of government were not given till Christ ascended to that it may be answered 1. That he ascended fortie three dayes after the period of his publique Ministration which added to the yeares forementioned make but small difference as to the government in question 2. That though he gave them an increase of gifts for government as he did for preaching he put his Apostles upon neither of those offices without competent gifts and qualifications for them 5. For the model of government which he saith was brought forth by degrees as people fell in and were capable of the yoke I would know what model he meaneth if he meane any model of Christ or his Apostles as it appeareth he doth for saith he against Mr. Colemans opinion I am fully assured of a power of order which the Apostle reioyced to behold Col. 2.5 I aske whether this be given by tradition or contained in the Scripture I suppose he will say of Government as well as of Worship not by tradition but by the written word and if so though it were but young in the time of Christ or his Apostles it is very ancient to us for we have no part of the written word but it is fifteene hundred yeares of age at least why then should that which is so old in constitution be thought too soone to be put in execution at the present especially since besides the direction for it in the Scripture we have had these many yeares severall patterns of it in many reformed Churches in the Christian world Nor doe our brethren of Scotland though they assert it from Scripture to be the will of God expect that the Parliament should establish it Jure Divino * M. Gelaspi● his brotherly examination of M. Colemans Sermon p. 32 33. If they shall in a Parliamentary and Legislative way establish that thing which is really and in it selfe agreeable to the word of God though they doe not declare it to be the will of Iesus Christ they are satisfied If it be best as his words imply that the government be brought in by degrees so it is in the present reformation for it

was first presented by a competent number of Aldermen and of the Common Councell and afterwards the Petition of the Ministers by many of them and on the twentieth day was each Petition presented to the House of Peeres in like manner as the day before to the House of Commons SECT XXII The offensive Acceptance of them by the Parliament as the weekely News-makers make report of it Cautions premised before their confutation FOr the third particular the acceptance the Petitions had This Malignant Intelligencer tels his Reader that the Commons sate long and laid it much to heart that any such thing should come from the Citie and that they should lend an eare to any that should in so evill a way represent things to them and of what dangerous consequence it was To which before I make any punctuall Reply I desire to premise these particulars 1. That in nothing that I have said or shall say I intend any contradiction to the Honourable House of Commons 2. I beleeve not this Relater hath truly delivered the fence of that House 3. That if any worthy Member among them according to any information received and beleeved by him have used his libertie in speaking of his mind though his wisdome as well as others innocencie may be abused by mis-report I shall not desire to raise any part of my Reply so high as to him but to confine my selfe to the report of this Pamphleter who I am sure hath no Parliamentary priviledge to speake what he pleaseth which yet a Parliament man that hath it will not take upon him to use when he is out of Parliament as when he is in it And if any of that grave and judicious Senate supposing us faulty have thought it fit and just that we should be charged we doubt not but there are many among them who if we be innocent will be well content to see us cleared since for many of us their Honour is in part ingaged for our reputation in the * We have consulted with the Reverend Pi●us and Learned Divines called together to that purpose The Ordinance of Parliament of the third of January 1644. prefixed before the Directory p. 1. publique Testimonie they have given of us to three Kingdomes and the most of us are the same men and have the same consciences engaged in the desire of a present establishment of Government so as it may be safely and profitably practicall who in confidence of the goodnesse and godlinesse of the Reformation owned managed and maintained by the Parliament and in hearty and faithfull devotion thereto and ready and cheerfull obedience to them have suffered the shipwrack of our estates and hazarded our lives and we repent not of any part of our paines or pressures or perils so long as we may be serviceable to so good a Cause and to such good and gracious Masters as under Christ they have hitherto approved themselves toward us and I hope we may without vain-boasting say by way of Apology that we have not beene altogether their unprofitable servants in respect of our Interest in and endeavours with the people without whom the greatest Kings are rather cyphers then figures and destitute both of honour and safety Prov. 14.28 to informe their judgements and to inflame their zeale and to oblige their consciences to fasten their affections in loyaltie and fidelity to those worthy P●triots whom they have in their choice and votes of election intrusted with the Religion the lives and the estates of themselves and their posteritie To which purpose we cannot be of so good use nor our mediation so effectuall for hereafter as aforetime if we be such Prevaricators as he hath represented us to the publique view or not being such if we suffer our innocence to be betrayed in mistrust to suspition by either inconsiderate or cowardly silence Thus much premised in dutie to the Honourable House of Commons and in due circumspection and caution to my Reverend Brethren and my selfe I shall now make answer to the charge given out and the answer so farre as it concerneth us may be partly made out of the conclusion of the Schedule as it was tendered with the reasons of the Ministers to the Court of Common C●uncell in confo●●itie to their desires made knowne unto us which was as that Honorable Assembly can witnesse with us in these words These our desires and reasons we humbly present to this Honourable Court not that we have the least intention of investing our selves and the Ministery with any arbitrarie unlimited and exorbitant power For the power is not to be settled upon the Ministers alone but upon the Presbyteries in all which it is provided already that there shall be alwaies two at least of the people for one Minister And we sincerely professe our desires and intentions to manage this weightie Government not according to our wils or wisdomes but as neere as is possible according to the will and word of God the most certaine Rule in the world nor that we would carry on this work by might and power for we have good hope that God in due time will patronize his owne Cause though men should be wanting but that we may discharge a good conscience in our utmost endeavours to advance the Kingdome of Christ in the puritie of Reformation to be faithfull to the Church of Christ wherein we are stewards and watchmen and to succeeding posteritie to maintaine the truth to which we are bound to beare witnesse to fulfill our solemne League and Covenant with God from which we cannot goe backe and as your remembran●ers to put you in mind to neglect no pious endeavours in your places and callings for expediting both your selves and us out of the former difficulties and for promoting of such a Reformation of Religion in Discipline and Government as may have due puritie in it selfe may bring sweet unitie amongst us and most conduce to an happy uniformitie in all the three Kingdomes according to the vowes of God that are upon you in your solemne League and Covenant He goeth on saying that the House did perceive that they had beene mis-informed and that they could not but lay it much to heart that they who had ever beene so ready to doe all good offices for the Kingdome and goe with the Parliament should from any but the Parliament take a representation of their proceedings Mis-informed wherein is there any thing untrue in that they presented in their Petition or Schedule annexed and by whom mis-informed by the Ministers of London that is the meaning but certainly they that originally made this suggestion are little acquainted with the minds consciences intentions or proceedings of the Ministers who gave in their writing to the Common Councell of the Citie subscribed with no fewer then fourescore and nine hands and they had presented more to the Parliament if they had not beene strai●ned in time for the Petition was drawne up but at night and was to be