Selected quad for the lemma: reason_n

Word A Word B Word C Word D Occurrence Frequency Band MI MI Band Prominent
reason_n answer_n answer_v objection_n 2,644 5 9.4165 5 false
View all documents for the selected quad

Text snippets containing the quad

ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A49134 Vox cleri, or, The sense of the clergy concerning the making of alterations in the established liturgy with remarks on the discourse concerning the Ecclesiastical Commission and several letters for alterations : to which is added an historical account of the whole proceedings of the present convocation. Long, Thomas, 1621-1707. 1690 (1690) Wing L2986; ESTC R1029 58,819 80

There are 3 snippets containing the selected quad. | View lemmatised text

be cast off at once He tell us p. 14. Of many Alterations formerly made and would fain know a reason why we should not make more I Answ Because there is not such reason as was to reform the Liturgies in the Reign of Edw. 6. when there was Crisme and Prayers for the Dead and such other things which Calvin called Tolerabiles ineptias and Q. Elizabeth kept in some things to bring in the Papists and it had good effect But ours being so well accommodated to Truth Piety and Devotion there needs no other Alterations unless better reasons can be shewed it being confessedly the best in the Christian World But moreover what good effect hath followed the six hundred Alterations in 1661 Who desireth them at our hands And their not desiring them argues they will not be satisfied by them but they expect such things as they are not willing to ask knowing they cannot be granted His Objections from Tobit and the old Translation of the Psalms have been already considered and so hath that of the Athanasian Creed As to the Liturgy therefore I commend Mr. Baxter to him and the Dissenters again p. 76. of Concord I constantly joyn with my Parish-Church in Liturgy and Sacraments and hope so to do while I live I take the Common-Prayer to be bester incomparably than many of the Sermons and Prayers that I hear His next charge p. 15. is against Excommunication which he says Is sometime denounced against the best of our People right or wrong for some Penny or Two-penny Cause This is a gross Scandal for if any be sued for small matters if it be due to their Minister he is very unjust that will with-hold it and the Excommunication is issued against such for the contempt of the Authority which is practised in all other Churches even in Scotland as by an Order printed June 1571. ch 4. Any small Offence say they may justly deserve Excommunication by reason of the contempt and disobedience of the Offender He comes p. 16. to answer Objections The first is That altering any thing in this now Constituted Church will be like the plucking a Beam but of a well built House which may endanger the whole Fabrick To which he answers If all had been of this mind we could never have Reformed from Popery This is very impertinent for is there no greater reason to reform False Doctrine and Idolatrous Worship than to change innocent and lawful Ceremonies in our well constituted Church there we are sure we altered for the better here we are not sure but we may alter for the worse Object 2. If we once begin to alter where shall we stop his Answer is When any thing is proposed to us which is not fit to be done This Answer is insufficient upon his grounds for he will not have the Church to judge what is fit but to do what is unfitly demanded by the Dissenters whom he makes Judges what ought to be altered Object 3. And he says If we yield now they will still be craving till they have taken all away And there is a crossing of his old Proverb by another Give an Inch and they will take an Ell. Obj. 4. That Alterations are required in some things as was in the Primitive Church Answ We are not hound to observe all that the Primitive Church did as their Love-Feasts and Deaconesses which is the same as if we were bound to revive the old Saxon and British Laws To which the Reply in brief is this When old Laws or Usages are antiquated and laid aside by the common consent of those that instituted them there remains nothing but our due Obedience to those new Ones that are in force I perceive now this Champion's Arms grow feeble and therefore he makes use of his Tongue and thinks to supply the defect of Reason by railing and his Bolt is quickly shot but shot at randome and hits No-body for he mistakes his Mark he aimed at the Prolocutor by an Inuendo that he was he who had been promoted in the Church by him whom he stabs with a Motto Nolumus leges Angliae mutare Which was not spoken by the Prolocutor but another person who owed his Preferment to his own merit and not another's favour but whoever spake the words they could not deserve the name of a stab unless the telling of a Truth be so and that ancient saying may excuse him Amicus Socrates Amicus Plato magis amica veritas But the other stab that of the Church is given her by the Author who complements the Church as Joab did Abner Art thou in health my Mother And the words are no sooner out of his mouth but the Sword is in her Bowels which as another Nero he unnaturally rips up though he had been long nourished in them nor doth he spare him whom he intended to vindicate by changing the Motto into a Volumus leges Angliae mutare And thus he insults over his dying Mother as if in his judgment her Case were desperate being reduced to the Ultimus Conatus Naturae p. 18. That she sits down quietly and languisheth to death rather then she will make the least effort to save herself But God be thanked she hath more dutiful Sons than this unnatural Brutus In the sixth Object p. 18. Our Author having so much mist his mark is so much in passion that he is angry with and as far as a plain contradiction will reach stabs himself The Objection is We have no reason to make Alterations for the sake of the Dissenters because the fault of our Divisions is not from any Constitutions of ours but from their obstinacy and perverseness in unreasonably dissenting from them To which his Answer is I acknowledge all this to be true that it is not the fault of the Church by any of its Constitutions or Impositions which are all rational and good but they Onely who refuse to conform to them Whereas in p. 3. he had affirmed That those excepted passages in the Liturgy and those Ceremonies in our Worship had given the whole Origine to those prevailing Evils among us and therefore thinks it necessary to lay aside those Penal Laws and Church Censures which have been inflicted with a Severity beyond what we can justifie and this he says hath heightned our Divisions and increased the Mischiefs which we endeavoured to remove If ever I read a contradiction this is one What then is our Author's Opinion but that our Penal Laws and Church Censures must of absolute necessity be laid aside and the Fathers of the Church be reconciled to their disobedient Children on their own terms as if he had never read of those terrible Judgments which were denounced against old Eli for his fondness towards his profane Sons who were Sons of Belial That would endure no Yoke themselves and made the People to abhor the Offerings of the Lord 1 Sam. 2.17 And he restrained them not but though they kicked at the Sacrifices and
not most certainly the Parliament will This man talks as once Cromwel did who having seized the Keys of the Parliament house clapt them up and said He had now the Parliament in his Pocket Most certainly the present Parliament will not truckle under such a degenerate Usurper and instead of thanks incur the Odium of the Nation seeing this very Author says If it come to their hands they may instead of Circumstantials alter Essentials and make a breach on Religion it self to the undoing of all and this I think is a Scandalum Magnatum and this he fears will be done not only in the case of Orders but other Particulars which he could instance in of which the least mischief would be totally to extinguish all Convocations for the future and resolve the whole power of the Church into the Two Houses of Parliament and fix the reproach of the Papists on us That our Religion is a Parliamentary Religion For my part I should fear the loss of my Ears if I should have thus slurd that Great Council this would make what he would have the Church to be Felo's de se This Man as other venomous Animals keeps the sting in his Tail or the conclusion of his Libel in Answer to a Third Objection That ha● necessary soever his Reasons befor Alterations yet it is time for it when so many of the Fathers of the Church whom he acknowledgeth to be excellent and most Religious persons and other eminent Men of the Clergy by their Suspension stand incapacitated to act in this matter and if this be now done when their consent cannot be had they will renounce it all and by sticking to the present Form create a new Schism in the Church and this he hears is the reason much insisted on to defeat the design and intent of this Convocation But first I believe whatever may be the design of some Men is not the intent of the Convocation they may intend the better Establishment of the present Convocation they may intend the better Establishment of the present Constitution the Reformation of the Lives and Manners of some of the Clergy by new Canons and Censures to be provided against the Ignorance and Idleness of some and the Irregularity and scandalous Behaviour of others who either already are or hereafter shall be admitted into the Ministry of the Church But let us attend to his Answer to this Objection which we have p. 24. Is it possible to imagine saith he that those who have so eminently signaliz'd themselves in defence of the Church and been Confessors for it should turn their hands against it No It is affirmed before that if they were admitted into the Convocation they would agree to the intended Alterations and if any should then seperate they are such as are most perversely bent against Reason and Conscience to do all the wickedness they can to gratifie a peevish humour and therefore he says they that make this Objection have a great deal to Answer for the injury which they do them by this slanderous and vile Imputation For my part I cannot be so confident that those excellent Men would be so forward to make such Alterations as this Author says they would and I see the Objectors are not without Reason on their side for if they are ready to suffer the loss of all that they have rather than to offend their Consciences by assenting to some Civil Alterations in the State which what the Particulars be I cannot imngine and therefore cannot judge of them it may well be supposed that they would be so tenderly conscientious in respect to the Constitutions of the Church as not to assent to any Alterations that concern the safety honour and beauty thereof without important Reasons But what if they should adhere to the old Form and not yield to the intended Alterations why then our Author hath advised for their ruine For their number saith he is so small their Proselytes will be so few and the Resentments of the State will be so heavy on them that they will be immediately crushed and fall to nothing Which will be very hard measure that such excellent Men should not be allowed so much Liberty of Conscience as Anabaptists and Quakers are though they be known to be Men of sound Doctrine and of peaceable and harmless Lives But it is yet their happiness that such as our Author is are not made their Judges for how we would deal with those Scare-crows as he terms them which Knaves 〈◊〉 lift up but none but Fools can be frighted with would probably be 〈◊〉 like the Knave than the Fool. And to conclude he thinks his Argument of Absolute Necessity so plain that there can be no opposition but from them that are afraid of their Church-power and Church-promotions when they hear of Reformation And in truth that word was made an Engine of great mischief in the former Age 1642 when the Church-men suffered more than they fear now under the present Government whatever this Author and his Abetters may design for he seems to threaten us That if we will not be contented with a moderate and just Reformation he knows not but the Nation may take the matter into their own hands and bring us to that of Scotland which he says we are so much afraid of and deprive us of all And then farewel our Church-promotions and all their Revenues which there will not want other Men to share among themselves when such a thorow Reformation shall be made as the Scots once procured and have again designed And therefore I dare not trust the promise of this single person whoever he be for I fear he hath not been as faithful to his former solemn engagements as he ought That upon our Alterations we shall find all the good success that can be desired because as he says there are appearances at present to the contrary and they of such an Aspect as will much abate the Credit which he expects should be given to his promises we had once very great promises from such a sort of Men what a glorious King they would make of King Charles the First and they did it but it was by Martyrdom and a godly Reformation was promised in the Church but it proved a thorow Desolation of Episcopacy Liturgy and all that was Sacred and as it was their fault then so it will be ours now if we by our too great credulity shall expose our selves to ruine a second time on a bare promse of a faithless Man Thus Sir I have reflected on these two Killing Letters and shall not concern my self to enquire the Authors They may be Papists who by such Arts seek to divide that they may destroy us nor can I perceive any other end in either Letter but the carrying on a design of Self-interest and Secular advantages on the ruine of the Church The first Author discovers his palpable Ignorance the second his visible Malice The one fights as Don
Offerings of the Lord yet honoured his Sons more than God Yet notwithstanding this he chargeth the Church as being too obstinate and obstructing the Peace of the Church and the Salvation of so many Souls as if the Peace of the Church and the Salvation of Souls were not more probably to be promoted in the Church than out of it and the Peace of the Church more likely to be procured by a restraining of those that separate from it rather than by complying with them as he adviseth He tells us indeed That we are Physitians sent to heal those that are sick and infirm and when they refuse a wholesome Medicine ought to think of something agreeable to his humor and palate but if the sick Man become pievish as he says and nothing will please him but what the Physitian knows will endanger his life the Physitian ought not in compliance with his humor to hazard his life A gentle restraint is more absolutely necessary in such cases than a foolish pity nor can it be called unreasonable severity for in such cases Non persequitur medicus aegrum sed aeger Medicum saith St. Augustine Object 7. If we make those Alterations how shall we answer the Papists who will upbraid us with it To this he answers As well as we did in the first of Q. Elizabeth Reply Not so well for she altred some things that were superstitious and yet kept up such a decency as drew in many Papists to the Communion of the Church as my Lord Cooke observed 2. He says We may alter now as well as in 1662. And likely no better for then notwithstanding the six hundred Alterations the Dissenters were Dissenters still 3. We may answer the Papists he says by pleading their Alterations at the Council of Trent Whereas that Council were so far from complying with the then Dissenters that they made more severe Canons and enjoyned them under their Anathemas when we onely desire to preserve our own Constitutions which our Author says Are both Reasonable and Religious Object 8. We shall by these Alterations dissatisfie our own People Answ I believe there is more Noise than Truth or Reason in this Objection There may be saith he some few ignorant or weak People that are zealously affected to these matters But the Apostle accounted them to be the stronger and better instructed Christians who understood their Christian Liberty as to things indifferent and were ready to submit to their Governours in such things for the Peace of the Church and condemned those that were contentious against the use of them the People ought not to prescribe to the Church in such things but the Church to them Nor is it a sinful supposition in them that do obey for they do not obey as to Divine Institutions but as to the Constitutions of the Church and therefore we do not fear that they will desert us if we keep our ground Thus far saith our Author I have shewn what necessity is upon us to consent to the Alterations that will be proposed in this present Convocation A strange kind of necessity to consent to what we never knew be it right or wrong A great Noise was made of consenting to certain Homilies that should be set forth by Authority of Church and State but here we must necessarily consent to what will be proposed by some few Men who by this Man's Authority may impose what they will upon us but of this he seems to be ashamed and therefore proceeds to another reason for this necessity From the Promise made by the Bishop to K. James which if not performed we must expect the general clamour of the People against us as a base and false sort of Men who can promise in times of Adversity and forget all when that is over and so become the Reproach of every Man Answ We are little obliged to this Author for his Misrepresentation of us and of our Promises which were conditional if the Parliament and Convocation should agree And are the Bishops in more prosperity now than when they made those Promises Are they in a condition to perform them now if they were never so willing This is the same as if one man should extort a promise from another in duris and then so bind him up that it shall be impossible for him to perform what he promised The reproach of non-performance will lay on some other and not on him Let the Bishops be put in statu quo and then see what they will do but this Objection our Author sufficiently Answers when he says There is no assurance that any one of the Dissenters will come over to us on our Concessions and therefore it is in vain to proceed on this project for as for his confidence that many would come in he must know the minds of those many better than they themselves do if he be assured of it for the leaders of that multitude who are guided by them have declared the contrary And it being the interest of their Ministers who have a more plentiful income by their conventicles as well as greater respects and a larger power than they 〈◊〉 hope for in a Church Benefice will never be such self-denying persons as to renounce all these Interests and be brought into the Church to the loss of them But the people saith our Author will forsake them and come into us if these Alterations be made Ans On the contrary it s more probable that when we make Alterations without their desire the Ministers will tell them we were ashamed of our corrupt Worship and have altered it in some lesser but have retained the greater matters to which they cannot yeild there being yet many sinful conditions in our conformity and as the people are already in this belief so they will from our voluntary Alterations confirm them in it and gain more on their credulity And from hence the Ministers will not be left without excuse as long as they pretend any one sinful term for a Communion with us is retained and that pretence is like to hold as long as it is their interest to suggest it and so long after all that we can grant we shall still be vexed with their Clamors But 2ly it is said We shall by our Alterations give satisfaction to the Nation who expects it the main Body whereof he says stand indifferently affected to them and us and think the things stood upon to be but trifling matters How the Nation will brook such an accusation as if like Gallio they cared not for the solemnity of Divine Worship and were Laodiceans neither hot nor cold for that which is Established by Law and hath been so long approved by their practice let them shew and it were a shame if they should not be as zealous for the Established Worship as the Dissenters are for that which hath been so often condemned though now it be Tolerated But there is yet another necessity for Alterations because if we do it