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you_o and_o whereas_o it_o be_v believe_v they_o be_v friend_n to_o separation_n this_o i_o can_v assure_v you_o that_o they_o deny_v not_o the_o church_n in_o england_n such_o as_o m._n calamy_n and_o m._n goodwin_n in_o coleman-street_n to_o be_v true_a church_n and_o why_o m._n goodwin_n and_o m._n calamy_n but_o because_o they_o be_v choose_v by_o the_o congregation_n and_o there_o be_v many_o visible_a saint_n in_o those_o congregation_n and_o so_o other_o of_o your_o way_n have_v be_v reason_v with_o how_o according_a to_o your_o principle_n that_o there_o be_v no_o national_n visible_a church_n under_o the_o new_a testament_n no_o visible_a church_n but_o a_o particular_a congregation_n and_o that_o the_o essence_n of_o minister_n call_v be_v election_n by_o the_o people_n and_o that_o the_o form_n of_o a_o church_n be_v a_o particular_a covenant_n with_o other_o thing_n of_o this_o nature_n and_o therefore_o consider_v the_o church_n of_o england_n be_v national_n and_o have_v 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infallible_o and_o necessary_o a_o particular_a church_n to_o exceed_v the_o limit_n of_o one_o particular_a congregation_n yet_o they_o never_o intend_v it_o as_o against_o the_o reform_a church_n now_o you_o know_v the_o say_n authoris_fw-la aliud_fw-la agentis_fw-la parva_fw-la est_fw-la authâ—…ritas_fw-la but_o show_v we_o where_o ever_o the_o old_a non-conformists'_a as_o against_o the_o reform_a church_n hold_v so_o it_o will_v appear_v by_o gerson_n bucerus_n and_o by_o the_o practice_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n in_o geneva_n amplitudinâ—…_n and_o holland_n for_o which_o mr_n robinson_n so_o object_n against_o they_o in_o his_o apology_n that_o though_o they_o be_v against_o the_o government_n of_o bishop_n and_o diocesan_n church_n that_o be_v of_o a_o head_n church_n over_o many_o congregation_n unite_v to_o it_o yet_o not_o of_o a_o particular_a church_n of_o such_o a_o city_n consist_v of_o many_o particular_a congregation_n and_o as_o for_o that_o you_o take_v for_o 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first_o be_v it_o not_o because_o you_o foresee_v the_o church_n of_o jerusalem_n and_o some_o few_o other_o record_v in_o the_o new_a testament_n though_o not_o in_o the_o first_o chapter_n of_o the_o act_n and_o at_o the_o beginning_n yet_o will_v at_o last_o by_o the_o 8._o of_o the_o act_n and_o act_n 21._o amount_v to_o more_o than_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o congregation_n and_o therefore_o you_o express_v it_o so_o be_v this_o fair_a deal_n or_o what_o other_o reason_n can_v you_o give_v for_o use_v such_o doubtful_a expression_n the_o question_n be_v not_o between_o you_o and_o we_o whether_o all_o the_o church_n and_o most_o of_o the_o church_n or_o whether_o at_o first_o and_o in_o the_o begin_n of_o they_o they_o consist_v of_o no_o more_o in_o one_o city_n then_o to_o make_v up_o one_o congregation_n but_o whether_o the_o scripture_n in_o the_o act_n of_o the_o apostle_n and_o epistle_n be_v it_o first_o or_o last_o soon_o or_o late_a give_v any_o pattern_n or_o example_n of_o
be_v so_o many_o as_o they_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o place_n but_o have_v more_o meet_v place_n yet_o in_o imitation_n of_o the_o scripture_n give_v that_o ground_n to_o some_o who_o have_v ask_v they_o a_o reason_n they_o make_v city_n church_n but_o one_o and_o the_o minister_n be_v minister_n in_o common_a of_o they_o all_o preach_v in_o their_o course_n in_o the_o several_a meeting_n place_n and_o govern_v in_o common_a and_o this_o they_o do_v to_o keep_v near_o to_o apostolical_a practice_n whereas_o now_o in_o the_o country_n where_o village_n be_v and_o the_o meeting_n be_v scatter_v they_o do_v not_o all_o preach_v to_o all_o and_o to_o add_v this_o further_a to_o show_v your_o unsafe_a way_n of_o practise_v in_o the_o way_n of_o your_o particular_a congregation_n over_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o our_o church_n in_o england_n your_o congregation_n as_o in_o london_n where_o the_o meeting_n place_n be_v and_o the_o minister_n reside_v be_v make_v up_o of_o member_n as_o of_o some_o live_n in_o london_n so_o of_o some_o in_o surrey_n middlesex_n hartfordsheire_n essex_n where_o they_o have_v fixum_fw-la domicilium_fw-la being_n twenty_o mile_n asunder_o and_o many_o member_n meet_v but_o sometime_o in_o a_o month_n where_o neither_o minister_n can_v oversee_v they_o nor_o member_n watch_v over_o one_o another_o not_o know_v what_o the_o conversation_n of_o each_o other_o be_v which_o yet_o be_v bring_v as_o the_o main_a ground_n for_o your_o church-fellowship_n which_o non-residencie_a of_o the_o member_n from_o one_o another_o and_o of_o the_o officer_n from_o so_o many_o of_o the_o member_n whether_o it_o overthrow_v not_o and_o be_v not_o point_v blank_a against_o many_o of_o your_o principle_n of_o the_o churchway_n i_o leave_v to_o yourselves_o to_o judge_v beside_o that_o it_o be_v without_o any_o primitive_a pattern_n and_o example_n of_o the_o church_n erect_v by_o the_o apostle_n the_o church_n be_v still_o style_v according_a to_o the_o place_n where_o they_o live_v and_o meet_v as_o in_o rom._n 1._o 7._o to_o all_o that_o be_v in_o rome_n belove_v of_o god_n call_v to_o be_v saint_n and_o so_o in_o the_o epistle_n to_o the_o corinthian_n to_o the_o church_n of_o god_n which_o be_v at_o corinth_n and_o i_o desire_v you_o to_o give_v i_o any_o primitive_a pattern_n of_o any_o who_o belong_v to_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n corinth_n jerusalem_n that_o be_v be_v stand_v member_n of_o those_o church_n who_o live_v and_o inhabit_v ten_o mile_n twenty_o five_o mile_n etc._n etc._n round_o about_o those_o city_n so_o that_o we_o find_v here_o in_o this_o three_o instance_n namely_o in_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o church_n as_o well_o as_o in_o the_o first_o instance_n in_o the_o qualification_n of_o your_o member_n that_o the_o additament_n be_v on_o your_o side_n and_o not_o on_o the_o reform_a church_n to_o the_o three_o head_n namely_o the_o reason_n couch_v and_o hint_v for_o your_o own_o practice_n and_o against_o the_o practice_n and_o way_n of_o the_o reform_a church_n to_o the_o first_o reason_n i_o answer_v as_o the_o relate_n of_o the_o state_n of_o the_o question_n be_v not_o proper_a so_o this_o argument_n hint_v here_o be_v not_o proper_o express_v for_o their_o might_n be_v such_o a_o presbyterial_a church_n and_o government_n as_o be_v maintain_v against_o you_o namely_o but_o two_o or_o three_o distinct_a meet_v place_n and_o yet_o not_o church_n rise_v to_o such_o a_o numerous_a multiplication_n nor_o apostle_n stay_v to_o the_o set_n up_o of_o church_n until_o they_o rise_v to_o such_o a_o numerous_a multiplication_n but_o pray_v what_o do_v you_o mean_v by_o those_o expression_n we_o do_v not_o imagine_v but_o may_v you_o not_o or_o can_v you_o not_o have_v imagine_v it_o though_o you_o do_v not_o nor_o will_v not_o and_o what_o by_o this_o that_o the_o apostle_n shall_v stay_v the_o set_n up_o of_o any_o church_n at_o all_o until_o they_o rise_v to_o make_v such_o a_o numerous_a multiplication_n as_o may_v make_v such_o a_o presbyterial_a combination_n do_v you_o carry_v the_o word_n in_o reference_n only_o to_o that_o numerous_a multiplication_n or_o simple_o and_o positive_o that_o the_o apostle_n do_v not_o stay_v so_o long_o in_o any_o city_n as_o to_o set_v up_o any_o church_n at_o all_o now_o if_o you_o will_v have_v your_o word_n interpret_v in_o the_o first_o sense_n then_o judge_v how_o improper_a the_o speech_n and_o narration_n of_o your_o mind_n be_v for_o than_o it_o shall_v have_v go_v thus_o that_o the_o apostle_n shall_v stay_v the_o set_n up_o of_o so_o many_o church_n until_o they_o rise_v to_o such_o a_o numerous_a multiplication_n for_o the_o deny_v the_o set_n up_o of_o any_o church_n and_o at_o all_o agree_v not_o with_o the_o follow_a word_n until_o they_o rise_v to_o such_o a_o numerous_a multiplication_n the_o former_a be_v a_o diminutive_a nay_o a_o negative_a and_o can_v agree_v to_o such_o a_o augmentative_a as_o the_o latter_a beside_o your_o first_o word_n carry_v in_o reference_n to_o the_o follow_v have_v no_o strength_n to_o prove_v what_o you_o bring_v they_o for_o namely_o what_o you_o allow_v and_o practise_v or_o what_o you_o disallow_v for_o though_o the_o apostle_n shall_v not_o stay_v so_o long_o as_o the_o set_n up_o so_o many_o church_n as_o may_v arise_v to_o such_o a_o numerous_a multiplication_n of_o several_a and_o sundry_a congregation_n yet_o there_o may_v be_v such_o a_o presbyterial_a classical_a church_n a_o church_n consist_v of_o more_o than_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o place_n which_o be_v the_o controversy_n between_o we_o but_o if_o you_o understand_v your_o word_n simple_o and_o positive_o that_o the_o apostle_n do_v not_o stay_v the_o set_n up_o of_o any_o church_n at_o all_o i_o desire_v you_o to_o remember_v your_o own_o principle_n and_o expression_n in_o many_o book_n and_o discourse_n of_o your_o way_n that_o the_o apostle_n be_v the_o founder_n of_o the_o first_o church_n as_o at_o corinth_n rome_n and_o for_o jerusalem_n especial_o which_o be_v the_o particular_a church_n we_o most_o stand_v upon_o the_o apostle_n stay_v long_o enough_o there_o to_o set_v up_o not_o only_o any_o church_n at_o all_o but_o many_o to_o make_v such_o a_o presbyterial_a combination_n as_o be_v stand_v for_o as_o will_v appear_v both_o by_o act_n 8._o act_n 15._o act_n 21._o and_o it_o be_v the_o judgement_n of_o mr_n robinson_n that_o jerusalem_n be_v never_o without_o some_o of_o the_o apostle_n there_o which_o the_o two_o first_o chapter_n of_o the_o galatian_n give_v a_o strong_a ground_n for_o beside_o the_o many_o presbyter_n that_o belong_v thereunto_o and_o so_o for_o the_o church_n of_o ephesus_n paul_n stay_v at_o one_o time_n in_o those_o part_n three_o year_n together_o long_a enough_o to_o make_v so_o many_o church_n as_o may_v make_v a_o presbyterial_a combination_n which_o that_o of_o the_o act_n chap._n 20._o vers_fw-la 17_o 18_o 25_o 28_o 29_o 31._o do_v give_v hint_n enough_o for_o if_o the_o nature_n of_o a_o answer_n to_o a_o narration_n will_v permit_v to_o draw_v they_o out_o at_o length_n to_o the_o second_o reason_n hint_v that_o those_o precept_n obey_v your_o elder_n and_o they_o that_o be_v over_o you_o be_v to_o be_v sure_o mean_v of_o the_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n set_v over_o they_o in_o each_o particular_a congregation_n respective_o and_o to_o be_v as_o certain_o the_o intendment_n of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n as_o in_o those_o command_n wife_n obey_v your_o own_o husband_n etc._n etc._n i_o answer_v that_o in_o scripture_n a_o particular_a church_n consist_v of_o more_o congregation_n than_o one_o and_o the_o minister_n and_o elder_n feed_v they_o and_o govern_v they_o in_o common_a as_o at_o jerusalem_n and_o as_o it_o be_v in_o the_o low_a country_n in_o city_n there_o as_o at_o amsterdam_n etc._n etc._n all_o the_o minister_n and_o elder_n be_v their_o own_o minister_n and_o elder_n as_o the_o husband_n be_v the_o own_o of_o their_o wife_n and_o those_o scripture_n be_v to_o be_v understand_v of_o all_o their_o pastor_n and_o minister_n and_o not_o of_o some_o only_a or_o in_o respect_n of_o some_o and_o not_o of_o the_o rest_n and_o it_o be_v as_o certain_o the_o intendment_n of_o the_o holy_a ghost_n as_o in_o that_o command_n wife_n obey_v your_o own_o husband_n that_o obey_v your_o elder_n etc._n etc._n be_v mean_v not_o of_o some_o but_o of_o they_o all_o 2._o in_o church_n by_o their_o combination_n consist_v of_o many_o congregation_n where_o ordinary_o some_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n feed_v some_o congregation_n and_o not_o the_o rest_n minister_n be_v fix_v some_o to_o that_o congregation_n and_o other_o to_o other_o congregation_n yet_o there_o be_v a_o government_n in_o common_a by_o all_o the_o presbyter_n of_o
as_o they_o see_v just_a ground_n the_o controversy_n be_v at_o a_o end_n 4._o the_o corporation_n that_o be_v those_o in_o place_n and_o power_n if_o they_o proceed_v unjust_o be_v accountable_a to_o the_o state_n they_o live_v in_o that_o be_v to_o a_o high_a civil_a power_n and_o adjudge_v themselves_o in_o case_n of_o wrong_n condemn_v the_o innocent_a suffer_v delinquent_n to_o escape_n but_o your_o corporation_n of_o particular_a congregation_n even_o in_o case_n of_o real_a administration_n be_v against_o all_o judge_a and_o all_o ecclesiastical_a authoritative_a power_n out_o of_o your_o own_o congregation_n to_o the_o five_o reason_n hint_v by_o you_o to_o strengthen_v your_o practice_n that_o it_o be_v safe_a and_o allow_v and_o the_o reform_a church_n more_o questionable_a namely_o appeal_n to_o they_o who_o have_v read_v book_n whether_o much_o have_v be_v write_v with_o strength_n set_o and_o direct_o to_o prove_v that_o government_n but_o rather_o to_o overthrow_v episcopal_a and_o to_o maintain_v those_o several_a officer_n in_o church_n which_o christ_n have_v institute_v and_o therefore_o you_o infer_v you_o may_v have_v more_o ground_n to_o question_v this_o government_n of_o combine_a classical_a presbyterial_a government_n i_o answer_v the_o ground_n of_o that_o be_v full_o lay_v down_o in_o the_o reformation_n of_o the_o church_n of_o scotland_n page_n 17_o and_o 18._o with_o a_o account_n of_o what_o have_v be_v write_v and_o do_v by_o the_o reform_a church_n in_o france_n for_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n and_o against_o the_o popular_a independent_a way_n which_o be_v more_o than_o you_o once_o in_o this_o reason_n hint_v but_o suppose_v that_o in_o former_a write_n of_o calvin_n beza_n zanchius_n peter_n martyr_n danaeus_n junius_n zeppâ—…rus_n gersom_a bucerus_n dr_n reynolds_n parker_n there_o have_v not_o be_v much_o set_o and_o direct_o insist_v on_o and_o with_o strength_n to_o prove_v the_o government_n of_o synod_n and_o class_n 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congregation_n and_o the_o toleration_n of_o they_o in_o this_o kingdom_n which_o book_n in_o your_o seem_a to_o take_v no_o notice_n of_o i_o believe_v you_o remember_v above_o the_o rest_n and_o in_o the_o 25_o page_n of_o your_o apology_n it_o appear_v you_o remember_v it_o but_o the_o author_n of_o it_o belike_o be_v none_o of_o your_o divine_n and_o in_o the_o close_a now_o of_o this_o answer_n to_o your_o reason_n hint_v about_o the_o government_n and_o discipline_n of_o the_o church_n why_o you_o in_o your_o congregationall_a way_n shall_v be_v in_o the_o truth_n but_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n be_v a_o question_n to_o you_o and_o judge_v a_o additament_n because_o the_o presbyterian_o allow_v you_o what_o you_o practise_v and_o grant_v what_o you_o hold_v but_o themselves_o hold_v and_o practise_v over_o and_o above_o i_o answer_v this_o be_v no_o argument_n at_o all_o for_o by_o the_o same_o reason_n the_o samaritan_n shall_v have_v worship_v god_n true_o but_o the_o jew_n false_o and_o the_o samaritan_n may_v have_v 22._o say_v to_o the_o jew_n as_o you_o do_v to_o the_o presbyteriann_n the_o five_o book_n of_o moses_n which_o we_o own_v to_o be_v sure_a they_o be_v from_o god_n you_o acknowledge_v they_o but_o for_o the_o book_n of_o the_o prophet_n that_o be_v a_o question_n which_o rest_v upon_o you_o that_o allow_v what_o we_o hold_v to_o make_v evident_a and_o demonstrate_v and_o so_o the_o jew_n may_v now_o by_o the_o same_o reason_n speak_v against_o the_o christian_n and_o say_v we_o be_v in_o the_o safe_a way_n to_o be_v sure_a we_o practise_v safe_o for_o you_o christian_n confess_v what_o we_o hold_v namely_o moses_n and_o the_o prophet_n to_o be_v the_o scripture_n but_o for_o the_o new_a testament_n that_o be_v to_o we_o a_o question_n and_o a_o additament_n which_o therefore_o rest_v upon_o you_o christian_n to_o make_v good_a who_o believe_v and_o practice_v over_o and_o above_o we_o and_o whereas_o the_o common_a prejudice_n and_o exception_n lay_v into_o all_o apolog._n man_n thought_n against_o we_o and_o our_o opinion_n be_v that_o in_o such_o a_o congregationall_a government_n thus_o entire_a within_o itself_o there_o be_v no_o allow_v sufficient_a remedy_n for_o miscarriage_n though_o never_o so_o grossâ—…_n no_o relief_n for_o wrongful_a sentence_n or_o person_n injure_v thereby_o no_o room_n for_o complaint_n no_o powerful_a or_o effectual_a mean_n to_o reduce_v a_o church_n or_o church_n that_o fall_v into_o heresy_n schism_n etc._n etc._n but_o every_o one_o be_v leave_v and_o may_v take_v liberty_n without_o control_n to_o do_v what_o be_v good_a in_o their_o own_o eye_n we_o have_v through_o the_o good_a providence_n of_o god_n upon_o we_o from_o the_o avow_a declaration_n of_o our_o judgement_n among_o our_o church_n mutual_o during_o our_o exile_n and_o that_o also_o confirm_v by_o the_o most_o solemn_a instance_n of_o our_o practice_n wherewith_o to_o vindicate_v ourselves_o and_o way_n in_o this_o 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partake_v in_o other_o man_n sin_n the_o church_n offend_v may_n and_o aught_o upon_o the_o impenitency_n of_o those_o church_n persist_v in_o their_o error_n and_o miscarriage_n to_o pronounce_v that_o heavy_a sentence_n against_o they_o of_o withdraw_a and_o renounce_v all_o christian_a communion_n with_o they_o until_o they_o do_v repent_v and_o further_o to_o declare_v and_o protest_v this_o with_o the_o cause_n thereof_o to_o all_o other_o church_n of_o christ_n that_o they_o may_v do_v the_o like_a and_o what_o further_a authority_n or_o proceed_n pure_o ecclesiastical_a of_o one_o or_o many_o sister_n church_n towards_o another_o whole_a church_n or_o church_n offend_v either_o the_o scripture_n do_v holdforth_o or_o can_v rational_o be_v put_v in_o execution_n without_o the_o magistrate_n interpose_v a_o power_n of_o another_o nature_n unto_o which_o we_o upon_o his_o particular_a cognisance_n and_o examination_n of_o such_o cause_n profess_v ever_o to_o submit_v and_o also_o to_o
word_n to_o hinder_v the_o depose_n of_o mr_n ward_n and_o so_o to_o have_v prevent_v so_o great_a a_o scandal_n and_o offence_n as_o this_o be_v to_o the_o five_o and_o last_o general_a head_n the_o comparison_n you_o make_v between_o the_o effectualness_n and_o powerfulnesse_n of_o your_o way_n of_o submission_n and_o non-communion_n and_o that_o of_o the_o presbyterian_o to_o awe_n and_o preserve_v church_n and_o elder_n in_o their_o duty_n and_o to_o reduce_v church_n miscarry_v where_o you_o make_v the_o sâ—…ales_n fall_v on_o your_o side_n rather_o i_o answer_v beside_o some_o considerable_a thing_n already_o hint_v under_o some_o of_o the_o former_a head_n especial_o under_o the_o four_o head_n which_o do_v show_v a_o wide_a difference_n of_o the_o effectualness_n and_o success_n which_o the_o presbyterian_a principle_n and_o way_n hold_v out_o over_o your_o congregationall_a thâ—…e_o be_v many_o other_o to_o 〈◊〉_d the_o sâ—…les_n which_o i_o shall_v now_o speak_v of_o according_a as_o it_o be_v lay_v down_o here_o by_o you_o in_o the_o 17_o 18_o and_o 19_o page_n 1._o that_o you_o may_v render_v your_o way_n the_o more_o specious_a and_o probable_a you_o beg_v the_o question_n and_o take_v for_o grant_v thing_n deny_v suppose_v that_o also_o which_o never_o have_v fall_v out_o in_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o you_o speak_v but_o to_o a_o part_n of_o the_o way_n and_o remedy_n namely_o excommunication_n anâ—…_n from_o all_o these_o false_a premise_n you_o make_v your_o conclusion_n you_o lie_v down_o your_o way_n of_o submission_n and_o non-communion_n 〈◊〉_d that_o â—…ch_n be_v the_o 〈◊〉_d and_o way_n of_o christ_n and_o to_o be_v strict_o enjoin_v by_o christ_n â—…d_v that_o it_o be_v a_o command_n from_o christ_n enjoin_v to_o church_n that_o be_v â—…ly_o offend_v to_o denounce_v such_o a_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n which_o be_v a_o mere_a device_n of_o your_o own_o brain_n and_o sound_v out_o to_o give_v a_o colourable_a answer_n to_o that_o common_a and_o 〈◊〉_d reason_n against_o the_o churchway_n 〈◊〉_d you_o make_v that_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d in_o presbytery_n to_o be_v a_o excommunicate_v of_o whole_a church_n and_o â—…s_v deliver_v of_o whole_a church_n and_o their_o eldere_fw-la offend_v unto_o saâ—…n_n which_o be_v a_o scandalous_a charge_n lay_v to_o though_o presbyterian_a government_n and_o never_o yet_o be_v â—…rd_n of_o in_o any_o of_o the_o reform_a church_n for_o the_o space_n now_o of_o a_o hundred_o year_n past_a you_o lay_v you_o give_v more_o to_o the_o magistrate_n power_n then_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o presbyterial_a government_n will_v suffer_v they_o to_o yield_v whereas_o in_o some_o thing_n i_o shall_v show_v the_o contrary_a and_o in_o other_o thing_n you_o may_v out_o of_o policy_n at_o this_o time_n give_v more_o than_o the_o scripture_n allow_v you_o speak_v only_o of_o excommunication_n a_o part_n of_o their_o way_n whereas_o in_o combine_a classical_a government_n there_o be_v many_o other_o mean_n and_o way_n from_o first_o to_o last_o to_o preserve_v and_o reduce_v from_o error_n and_o offence_n 2._o the_o comparison_n make_v by_o you_o between_o the_o presbyterian_o and_o independent_o stand_v in_o two_o thing_n first_o in_o the_o ecclesiastical_a proceed_n and_o power_n second_o in_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n power_n 1._o for_o the_o ecclesiastical_a you_o make_v that_o principle_n of_o submission_n of_o church_n that_o miscarry_v and_o that_o of_o non-communion_n as_o effectual_a as_o excommunication_n which_o suppose_v they_o be_v as_o i_o shall_v show_v they_o be_v not_o yet_o it_o be_v a_o fallacious_a reason_n by_o compare_v the_o whole_a with_o a_o part_n for_o a_o whole_a of_o one_o kind_n may_v be_v better_a and_o more_o excellent_a than_o some_o part_n of_o another_o kind_n and_o yet_o not_o comparable_a to_o the_o whole_a now_o there_o be_v many_o thing_n in_o presbyterial_a government_n beside_o excommunication_n excellent_a to_o preserve_v and_o keep_v the_o church_n their_o reformation_n and_o constitution_n be_v settle_v by_o synod_n and_o assembly_n their_o minister_n be_v ordain_v by_o presbytery_n and_o class_n their_o doctrine_n worship_n government_n and_o discipline_n upon_o serious_a debate_n and_o by_o common_a content_n draw_v up_o then_o rule_v be_v fix_v know_v and_o certain_a their_o classical_a meeting_n frequent_a and_o constant_a with_o high_a assembly_n for_o appeal_n their_o number_n and_o ability_n great_a their_o remedy_n and_o censure_n more_o solemn_a and_o more_o in_o number_n as_o deposition_n suspension_n etc._n etc._n all_o which_o be_v want_v in_o the_o church_n way_n as_o i_o can_v show_v at_o large_a but_o that_o this_o answer_n will_v be_v too_o great_a a_o volume_n but_o to_o come_v to_o particular_n the_o presbyterian_a be_v more_o effectual_a than_o your_o independent_a way_n 1._o because_o it_o do_v prevent_v and_o preserve_v from_o those_o many_o error_n division_n evil_n which_o fall_v in_o your_o way_n as_o be_v evident_a by_o experience_n and_o be_v found_v upon_o good_a reason_n will_v fall_v out_o now_o how_o much_o better_a and_o more_o effectual_a a_o way_n it_o be_v to_o play_v the_o foregame_n than_o the_o aftergame_n all_o man_n know_v it_o be_v better_a to_o prevent_v the_o plague_n and_o take_n in_o poison_n then_o to_o expel_v it_o government_n be_v for_o prevention_n as_o well_o as_o recover_v if_o your_o way_n be_v as_o effectual_a to_o compose_v difference_n and_o reduce_v church_n yet_o not_o so_o to_o prevent_v which_o be_v one_o of_o the_o great_a end_n of_o church_n government_n 2._o your_o way_n wrap_v in_o whole_a church_n in_o sin_n and_o guilt_n and_o you_o have_v no_o remedy_n but_o it_o must_v come_v to_o non-communion_n of_o whole_a church_n but_o in_o presbyterial_a it_o be_v not_o so_o no_o example_n be_v extant_a among_o they_o of_o excommunicate_v whole_a church_n so_o that_o if_o a_o error_n take_v one_o or_o two_o they_o be_v present_o deal_v with_o and_o the_o error_n spread_v not_o to_o a_o whole_a church_n 3._o in_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n the_o person_n offend_v and_o sin_v in_o congregation_n be_v proceed_v with_o and_o punish_v every_o man_n bear_v his_o own_o sin_n but_o the_o innocent_a person_n suffer_v not_o but_o here_o in_o the_o way_n of_o non-communion_n some_o who_o be_v good_a in_o the_o church_n suffer_v also_o many_o way_n and_o here_o be_v no_o difference_n make_v by_o you_o but_o all_o involve_a in_o the_o same_o condition_n 4._o in_o your_o way_n as_o if_o all_o sin_n be_v equal_a and_o all_o offender_n alike_o all_o be_v punish_v with_o the_o same_o sentence_n of_o non-communion_n but_o it_o be_v not_o so_o in_o the_o presbyterial_a way_n 5._o your_o submission_n and_o meeting_n be_v accidental_a uncertain_a free_a and_o at_o choice_n they_o may_v be_v and_o may_v not_o be_v there_o be_v many_o way_n to_o evade_v and_o put_v they_o off_o whereas_o the_o combination_n and_o consociation_n of_o church_n be_v fix_v set_v certain_a among_o your_o church_n in_o holland_n in_o three_o or_o four_o year_n there_o be_v but_o one_o act_n of_o submission_n and_o one_o meeting_n which_o be_v here_o relate_v in_o that_o difference_n between_o those_o two_o church_n at_o rotterdam_n there_o be_v no_o submission_n but_o each_o church_n blow_v the_o trumpet_n of_o defiance_n against_o each_o other_o and_o so_o about_o the_o difference_n at_o arnheim_n which_o the_o church_n can_v not_o end_v in_o so_o long_a a_o time_n no_o church_n interpose_v but_o in_o the_o classical_a government_n there_o be_v such_o a_o subordination_n and_o dependencie_n such_o state_v and_o fix_v meeting_n that_o if_o man_n shall_v escape_v one_o they_o do_v not_o all_o now_o in_o government_n and_o order_n there_o be_v a_o material_a difference_n between_o what_o man_n may_v do_v or_o not_o do_v and_o what_o they_o have_v tie_v themselves_o unto_o and_o must_v stand_v to_o in_o matter_n of_o civil_a difference_n refer_v to_o arbitratour_n it_o be_v one_o thing_n to_o submit_v to_o hear_v and_o to_o counsel_v upon_o it_o and_o another_o thing_n to_o be_v bind_v to_o stand_v to_o the_o determination_n there_o be_v many_o will_v do_v just_o and_o perform_v such_o trust_n while_o bind_v who_o leave_v at_o liberty_n will_v do_v just_o nothing_o now_o in_o your_o submission_n of_o church_n though_o you_o submit_v to_o a_o hear_n yet_o you_o do_v not_o submit_v to_o their_o determination_n unless_o it_o like_v you_o you_o do_v not_o submit_v to_o do_v what_o they_o enjoin_v but_o you_o will_v order_v yourselves_o according_a to_o their_o counsel_n as_o you_o see_v occasion_n now_o man_n be_v partial_a in_o their_o own_o cause_n and_o still_o their_o own_o judge_n what_o a_o remedy_n be_v this_o it_o be_v one_o thing_n when_o man_n know_v they_o be_v at_o liberty_n and_o may_v do_v or_o not_o do_v as_o they_o see_v good_a and_o another_o
in_o holland_n and_o have_v speak_v with_o many_o of_o your_o way_n yea_o with_o some_o of_o you_o if_o i_o mistake_v not_o and_o write_v so_o late_o upon_o these_o point_n upon_o the_o occasion_n of_o the_o newness_n of_o the_o controversy_n shall_v so_o mistake_v or_o that_o the_o two_o reverend_a and_o learned_a divine_n of_o scotland_n set_v forth_o book_n chief_o upon_o the_o occasion_n of_o your_o dissent_n the_o first_o divine_a have_v be_v in_o england_n so_o long_o in_o the_o first_o year_n of_o the_o parliament_n sit_v and_o have_v have_v discourse_n with_o some_o of_o you_o upon_o the_o point_n and_o the_o late_a mr_n rutherford_n be_v so_o able_a a_o man_n and_o so_o well_o verse_v in_o the_o controversy_n shall_v conspire_v to_o prepossess_v the_o people_n mind_n against_o what_o be_v suppose_v your_o tenet_n but_o if_o all_o these_o shall_v have_v mistake_v that_o yet_o one_o of_o your_o own_o divine_n who_o write_v more_o late_o with_o much_o learning_n and_o ingenuity_n as_o yourselves_o confess_v and_o your_o licenser_n too_o shall_v fasten_v upon_o you_o suppose_a tenet_n seem_v strange_a but_o the_o best_a be_v we_o have_v yourselves_o confess_v in_o the_o 15._o page_n of_o your_o apology_n that_o these_o divine_n of_o holland_n scotland_n and_o england_n have_v write_v against_o your_o tenet_n and_o government_n direct_o set_o and_o with_o strength_n and_o how_o can_v mr_n herles_a book_n against_o independency_n be_v write_v with_o much_o ingenuity_n if_o he_o have_v prepossess_v the_o people_n mind_n against_o what_o be_v suppose_v your_o tenet_n but_o be_v not_o so_o indeed_o and_o however_o though_o neither_o myself_o nor_o my_o book_n against_o independent_a government_n be_v not_o in_o the_o number_n of_o the_o man_n and_o book_n of_o much_o worth_n and_o learning_n write_v with_o moderation_n and_o strength_n yet_o it_o be_v probable_a those_o reason_n against_o independent_a government_n and_o toleration_n trouble_v you_o as_o much_o as_o any_o other_o book_n write_v and_o may_v be_v more_o aim_v at_o by_o you_o in_o this_o passage_n than_o other_o book_n and_o therefore_o to_o free_v myself_o i_o have_v not_o assâ—…rted_v any_o thing_n in_o that_o book_n as_o your_o tenet_n but_o what_o i_o have_v good_a reason_n to_o believe_v you_o have_v hold_v and_o i_o can_v produce_v it_o either_o as_o your_o know_a practice_n or_o out_o of_o some_o manuscript_n that_o go_v under_o some_o of_o your_o name_n or_o from_o your_o own_o mouth_n or_o some_o intimate_a familiar_n of_o you_o so_o that_o unless_o according_a to_o your_o second_o great_a principle_n in_o the_o 10_o page_n you_o have_v alter_v and_o retract_v within_o these_o few_o year_n what_o six_o or_o seven_o year_n ago_o you_o hold_v the_o people_n mind_n have_v not_o be_v proposse_v by_o i_o with_o what_o be_v your_o suppose_a tenet_n but_o with_o your_o real_a tenet_n &_o i_o desire_v you_o in_o your_o reply_n to_o give_v any_o instance_n to_o the_o contrary_a and_o that_o neither_o i_o nor_o other_o may_v not_o write_v against_o your_o suppose_a tenet_n any_o long_o i_o do_v beleech_n you_o for_o the_o glory_n of_o god_n &_o the_o peace_n of_o the_o church_n to_o set_v down_o positive_o and_o plain_o all_o your_o tenet_n wherein_o you_o differ_v from_o the_o reform_a church_n and_o the_o reformation_n likely_a to_o be_v settle_v and_o that_o with_o the_o ground_n of_o they_o or_o without_o the_o ground_n if_o your_o other_o occasion_n will_v not_o allow_v you_o time_n and_o i_o do_v promise_v you_o by_o the_o help_n of_o god_n in_o a_o short_a convenient_a time_n without_o any_o thing_n personal_a or_o matter_n of_o fact_n to_o give_v you_o a_o direct_a answer_n from_o scripture_n and_o reason_n ground_v thereupon_o whereby_o we_o may_v understand_v one_o another_o the_o better_a and_o bring_v this_o sad_a controversy_n between_o brother_n to_o a_o end_n the_o soon_o 5._o we_o who_o have_v write_v any_o thing_n against_o your_o way_n have_v not_o so_o much_o prepossess_v the_o people_n mind_n against_o your_o tenet_n as_o labour_v to_o dispossess_v they_o we_o have_v all_o play_v the_o aftergame_n too_o much_o you_o the_o foregame_n you_o and_o your_o party_n have_v prepossess_v the_o people_n mind_n with_o your_o principle_n and_o have_v fill_v the_o city_n and_o kingdom_n with_o your_o tenet_n and_o you_o have_v be_v on_o the_o prepossessing_a hand_n fill_v many_o parliament_n man_n earâ—…s_n and_o the_o people_n mind_n against_o presbyterial_a government_n and_o instil_v into_o they_o thing_n but_o suppose_v against_o that_o government_n as_o not_o give_v enough_o to_o the_o power_n of_o the_o civil_a magistrate_n it_o will_v grieve_v a_o ingenious_a and_o conscientious_a man_n to_o see_v where_o ever_o one_o come_v how_o many_o good_a people_n of_o the_o kingdom_n be_v prepossess_v by_o be_v prejudice_v against_o presbyterial_a government_n that_o it_o will_v be_v worse_o than_o the_o hierarchy_n and_o more_o tyrannical_a to_o the_o conscience_n and_o liberty_n of_o the_o people_n with_o such_o like_a there_o be_v therefore_o and_o be_v much_o need_n to_o cast_v out_o these_o devil_n and_o to_o unpossesse_v the_o people_n possess_v and_o by_o preach_v conference_n and_o writing_n to_o preserve_v such_o who_o be_v not_o yet_o possess_v and_o to_o prepossess_v they_o with_o truth_n because_o such_o be_v the_o nature_n of_o your_o error_n that_o hither_o to_o few_o who_o take_v hold_v of_o they_o ever_o return_v like_o goodwin_n sand_n that_o if_o a_o ship_n once_o strike_v upon_o they_o there_o be_v no_o fetch_v she_o off_o or_o as_o poison_v which_o be_v hardly_o expel_v if_o once_o it_o be_v diffuse_v through_o the_o body_n 3._o for_o the_o ground_n and_o reason_n of_o your_o pretend_a deep_a silence_n and_o forbearance_n of_o vent_v your_o opinion_n to_o the_o multitude_n i_o grant_v they_o be_v well_o sum_v up_o by_o you_o and_o i_o wish_v they_o have_v wrought_v as_o well_o with_o you_o to_o a_o deep_a silence_n and_o forbearance_n but_o whatever_o you_o say_v of_o the_o conscience_n and_o consideration_n of_o all_o these_o and_o the_o weight_n of_o each_o to_o have_v have_v such_o a_o power_n with_o you_o hitherto_o the_o contrary_a have_v be_v prove_v and_o i_o be_o ready_a yet_o further_o to_o make_v it_o good_a and_o will_v upon_o your_o reply_n to_o this_o answer_n say_v a_o great_a deal_n more_o but_o now_o i_o must_v come_v to_o examine_v each_o of_o your_o ground_n apart_o which_o you_o say_v wrought_v upon_o you_o not_o to_o attempt_v in_o the_o least_o to_o make_v a_o party_n or_o to_o act_v for_o yourselves_o or_o way_n 1._o but_o we_o know_v and_o consider_v that_o it_o be_v the_o second_o blow_n that_o make_v the_o quarrel_n and_o that_o the_o begin_n of_o strife_n will_v have_v be_v as_o the_o break_n in_o of_o water_n and_o the_o sad_a and_o conscientious_a apprehension_n of_o the_o danger_n of_o rend_v and_o divide_v the_o godly_a protestant_a party_n in_o this_o kingdom_n that_o be_v desirous_a of_o reformation_n and_o of_o make_v several_a interest_n among_o they_o when_o there_o be_v a_o absolute_a necessity_n of_o their_o near_a union_n and_o conjunction_n etc._n etc._n i_o answer_v it_o be_v speak_v like_o a_o oracle_n and_o may_v indeed_o have_v wrought_v upon_o you_o to_o a_o bury_n of_o your_o opinion_n to_o a_o total_a forbearance_n of_o they_o for_o a_o time_n and_o to_o have_v spend_v your_o time_n in_o a_o conjure_n all_o the_o minister_n and_o people_n of_o your_o way_n not_o to_o have_v speak_v a_o word_n not_o to_o have_v appear_v in_o the_o least_o for_o those_o point_n till_o the_o reformation_n intend_v have_v be_v effect_v but_o brethren_n be_v it_o practise_v by_o you_o as_o well_o as_o it_o be_v here_o speak_v i_o beseech_v you_o let_v your_o conscience_n answer_v and_o in_o cool_a blood_n lay_v aside_o all_o particular_a interest_n passion_n prejudice_n consider_v whether_o it_o be_v not_o by_o your_o mean_n or_o 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now_o in_o the_o time_n of_o the_o assembly_n have_v be_v make_v yourselves_o know_v in_o your_o tenet_n and_o opinion_n and_o not_o have_v stay_v till_o the_o debate_n and_o discuss_v of_o they_o it_o have_v be_v for_o many_o reason_n best_o to_o have_v print_v a_o exact_a and_o scholastic_a relation_n of_o your_o judgement_n in_o the_o point_n of_o difference_n rather_o than_o such_o a_o popular_a and_o rhetorical_a discourse_n can_v there_o be_v any_o reason_n give_v for_o it_o but_o that_o this_o be_v write_v to_o take_v the_o people_n with_o to_o prepare_v their_o mind_n for_o your_o way_n for_o fear_v the_o assembly_n shall_v conclude_v against_o it_o and_o the_o more_o to_o engage_v your_o party_n to_o stand_v for_o you_o you_o have_v thus_o open_o and_o confident_o declare_v yourselves_o as_o also_o because_o you_o be_v best_o at_o this_o weapon_n more_o able_a in_o a_o lax_n discourse_v way_n to_o express_v yourselves_o then_o in_o a_o close_a press_v syllogistical_a 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have_v instance_a in_o several_a reform_a church_n and_o show_v god_n blessing_n upon_o presbyterial_a government_n here_o be_v only_o one_o instance_n among_o all_o the_o reform_a church_n bring_v against_o it_o and_o to_o that_o i_o shall_v give_v these_o three_o answer_n though_o the_o church_n in_o the_o low-countries_n be_v presbyterial_a yet_o withal_o there_o be_v a_o toleration_n of_o other_o church_n and_o government_n there_o which_o be_v one_o of_o the_o cause_n of_o it_o and_o hinder_v presbyterial_a government_n a_o toleration_n will_v spoil_v any_o church_n and_o government_n if_o presbyterial_a government_n be_v settle_v and_o a_o toleration_n give_v in_o this_o land_n that_o will_v mar_v all_o so_o that_o the_o parliament_n may_v be_v please_v to_o take_v notice_n by_o this_o and_o observe_v the_o difference_n between_o those_o church_n which_o have_v no_o toleration_n as_o scotland_n geneva_n and_o the_o low-countries_n which_o grant_v a_o toleration_n the_o one_o be_v pure_a in_o doctrine_n etc._n etc._n the_o other_o make_v minister_n and_o people_n turn_v arminian_n socinian_o etc._n etc._n 2_o answ._n there_o be_v another_o reason_n why_o it_o may_v so_o fall_v out_o in_o the_o low-countries_n because_o presbyterial_a government_n have_v not_o its_o free_a course_n there_o in_o synod_n but_o it_o be_v much_o disturb_v over_o it_o be_v in_o france_n geneva_n scotland_n whereas_o by_o their_o canon_n and_o constitution_n in_o the_o netherlands_o there_o shall_v be_v a_o national_n synod_n once_o in_o three_o year_n they_o have_v not_o nor_o can_v procure_v one_o in_o twenty_o year_n and_o upward_o and_o whereas_o provincial_n synod_n shall_v be_v yearly_o they_o have_v they_o in_o some_o province_n but_o once_o in_o five_o and_o seven_o year_n beside_o there_o be_v other_o disturbance_n in_o presbyterial_a government_n which_o hinder_v the_o free_a course_n of_o it_o in_o holland_n many_o encroachment_n be_v make_v upon_o the_o right_n of_o their_o church_n due_a to_o they_o by_o virtue_n of_o their_o discipline_n and_o heretofore_o establish_v in_o a_o word_n that_o anabaptisticall_a and_o familisticall_a spirit_n in_o many_o and_o that_o corrupt_a spirit_n and_o principle_n in_o other_o with_o those_o principle_n of_o toleration_n do_v much_o check_n and_o stop_v presbyterial_a government_n from_o have_v its_o perfect_a work_n and_o bring_v forth_o its_o full_a effect_n the_o true_a reason_n of_o so_o many_o minister_n and_o people_n turn_v arminian_n and_o socinian_o in_o the_o low-countries_n be_v the_o want_n of_o synod_n which_o arminius_n and_o his_o follower_n always_o decline_v and_o by_o flatter_v the_o magistrate_n keep_v off_o for_o many_o year_n in_o which_o time_n so_o many_o fell_a whereas_o if_o presbyterial_a government_n have_v have_v its_o course_n and_o a_o national_n synod_n have_v be_v call_v yea_o but_o a_o provincial_n for_o the_o arminian_n to_o have_v answer_v in_o at_o first_o before_o it_o have_v so_o much_o