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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A16170	A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist.	Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628.	1598 (1598)	STC 3092; ESTC S102284	61,282	90

although he write very directly against the Pope popery yet in many respects doth he shew himself a papist as in following of corrupt translations in the places of scripture which he alledgeth in misapplying many of them contrary to the true sense meaning of the holy Ghost wherein although some warni●g is giuen by a few marginall notes added of purpose and signed wit● this letter yet cannot the godly reader for all that be too wearie and circumspect in the particular consideration of the same Faults escaped Pag. 2. for euery read euery Pag. 3. for iu read ni Pa. 4. for Iunius read Fumus Pag 7. for 〈…〉 A COVRTEOVS conference with the English Catholicks Romane about the six Articles ministred vnto the Seminarie priestes wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie and the principles of their owne religi●n that the Pope cannot depos● her Maiesty or relea●e her subiects of their Allegiance vnto her NOw then to proue my first proposition that the Pope and all the Bishoppes and Priestes are subiect by the law of God vnto the temporall magistr●te All persons subiect to the temporal magistrat in whose realme and dominions they doe dwell thus I prooue Salomon Prou. 24. saith my sonne feare the Lord and King and intermeddle not or be not among detractors for their distruction wil arise sodainly and who knoweth the ruine of them both Likewise Saint Paul the Apostle in his writing to the Romaines thus exhorteth or rather commandeth them Chap. 13. Let euery soule be subiect to the higher power for there is noe power but from God but those which are were ordained by God c. So then he that resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God but they which doe resist do get themselues dānation for princes be no feare of good worke but of il but wilt thou not feare the power doe well and then shalt thou haue praise thereby for he is the minister of God vnto thee to good but if thou haue done ill then feare for he beareth not the sword without cause he is the minister of God a reuenger in wrath to him that doth ill And therfore ye must needes be subiect not onely for wrath but also for conscience for therefore doe yea also pay tribute for they are the ministers of God seruing for this very purpose Also in his epistle to Titus Cap. 3. he writes warne them to be subiect to principalities powers to obey their commandements Moreouer S. Pet●r from whom the Pope clameth his mo●arc●● thus writeth in his first vniuersall epistle Cap. 2. Be ye ●ub ect to euery humain creature for the Lord whether it be 〈…〉 most excellent or vnto the presidents as sent 〈◊〉 him to the reuenge of euil deedes but to the praise of 〈◊〉 good because so is the will of God that ye doing well ●ay make m●re the ignorance of the vnskilfull as free men 〈…〉 as men that haue libertie for a cloake of naughtinesse but a● the bondmen of God and anone after feare God and honour the King Ye do see how the old and new law doe agree in the supreeme authoritie of princes ouer all persons borne or abiding within their dominions Paul vsing this vniuersall euery excepting none and Salomon and Peter an indefinite in this place equall vnto an vniuersall And Peter and Paul doe in expresse wordes giue vnto him the supreeme Emp●re of administring iustice in punishing the wicked rewarding the good and that he is so the Apostle doth proue by that ●ll men pay him tribute the which also he commandeth to be paide and also chargeth all men to be obedient vnto him and not for feare onely lest otherwise the prince would make them smart but also for cōscience sake because the● are in duety bound so to do for that God had ordained them to be his lieuetenants in gouernement And therefore if they were not obedient vnto them they must needs be accounted reputed for rebels vnto God that would not accept him for their soueraigne whom God had set ouer them And Peter to suppres the carnal cogitation of the Iewes vnto whom he wrot that thought that the messias had enfranchised them by his redēption from al subiection to man also to preuēt the proud opinion of the clergy that should come after who would clame exemption from earthly subiection because they were appointed ordained dispensers of the misteries of the Messias he flatly affirmeth the claming of such libertie to be nothing else put a plaine pretence cloake for their naughtinesse For he would they shoulde remēber that although they were deliuered by Christ from the bondage tiranny of sin death the Deuill yet they remained still his his fathers bondmen therfore ought duetifully to obey still the ciuill magistrats whom God hath placed in his owne throne his king his lieuetenant ouer them And therefore Salomon in the place afore alleadged An appellation in secular causes cannot be made to the Pope ioyneth them together saying feare God and the King God principally saith Lyra writing on that place and secundarily the King who is his Vicar in temporall things This being so I cannot chuse but much maruaile at that saying in Cap. Licet de sor comp that an appellation may be made from all princes temporall Yea such as do acknowledge no superiour in temporalities when none other can be had and the matter is of som weight For if as Tertullian saith in his Apologie that there is no man aboue the Emperour et quem soli Deo subiicio and whome I make vnder none but God in annother place of the same Apologie he saith of the Emperours of Rome in Dei solius potestate sunt a quo sunt secundi post quem primi ante omnes et super omnes deos quid in cum super omnes homines they are vnder God only vnto whom they are seconde after whom they are first before all men and aboue all gods and why not seeing they are aboue all men And againe if it be true that the graue and learned light of our Lawiers Bracton that liued almost foure hundreth yeares agoe in the raigne of Henry the thirde doth affirme in the beginning of his booke that a King cannot be a King if he haue any superiour in those things that doe appertaine vnto his crowne and kingdome and may not haue in his kingdome any equall much lesse any superiour especially in administration of iustice that it may be saide of him Great is our Lorde greate is his power c. And that he doth aff●irme him to be the vicar of God on earth This place Psal 14● 5 〈…〉 o●●od I can not see by what right or reason an appellation in a secular cause can be made from an Emperour King or any supreame temporall magistrate vnto the Pope seeing he is not theire superiour in temporalities For all the worlde knoweth that an

in al thinges touching the royaltie of the same Crowne shoulde be submitted to the sea of Rome We doe also reade there that all the Barons and all the Byshoppes present and the deputies of those which were absent being asked euery man seuerally saide that therein they would to their vttermost stand with the King against the Pope so zealous were all good Englishmen in those daies of the auncient honour and libertie of their country and the soueraignetie of their King Moreouer Saint Germanye in the xxxix Chapter of the second booke entreating how ecclesiasticall persons may dispose of their goodes he vtterly reiecteth the Canon law therein and sheweth what they may doe by the lawes of this Realme and at the length he saith thus And moreouer a parson of a Church vicar Chauntery priest or such other all such goods as they haue by reason of the parsonage vicarage or Chauntery as that they haue by reason of their owne person they may lawfully giue and bequeth after the common law And if they dispose part among their parishoners and part to the building of Churches or giue part to the ordinary or to poore men or in any such manner as is appoynted by the law of the Church they offend not therein vnlesse they thinke thēselues bound thereunto by duety authoritie of the law of the Church not regarding the Kings lawes For if they doe so it seemeth they resist the ordinance of God which hath giuen power to princes to make lawes But whereas the Pope hath soueraignety in temporall things as he hath in spirituall thinges there some say that the goods of priests must in conscience be disposed as it is contained in the same summe But it holdeth not in this Realme for the goodes of spirituall men bee temporall in what manner soeuer they come to them and must be ordered by the temporall law as the goodes of temporall men must be Thus farre Sainte Germany then may I inferre if that the Pope the counsell and thee conuocation can not make a Lawe touching the goodes of the spirituallty within this Realme and that those which doe dispose of their goodes according to such a Canon doe sinne although it doe agree with the law of this Realme if they did it as bounde by that Canon shall wee thinke that the Pope the councell or the conuocation can giue away the goodes and landes of temporall men within this Realme yea and the Crowne and kingdome and that they doe not sinne mortally that doe obey any such decrees And what account is to bee made of the Popes dispensation in temporall causes the same learned author plainely declareth in the xli Chapter of the seconde booke where hee saith That although by the Canon law euery man may lawfully kill an Assasin such a fellow as will at euery mans request kill any man for money yet he affirmeth it is altogether vnlawfull in this land and that notwithstanding the Popes dispensation and pardon he that slayeth an Assasin is a fellon and so ought to bee punished as a fellon Moreouer in his xliiii Chapter hee doth conctantly holde that the Canon summes that do determine all scruples of conscience according to the Canon law doe rather hurt English mens consciences then giue them light and that there bee many cases in them ruled according to the Canon law that are not to bee obserued in this Realme neyther in law nor conscience And in xlii Chapter that although many sayings in the same summes doe agree with the lawes of this Realme yet they are to be obserued by the authoritie of the Lawes of this Realme and not by the authoritie alleaged by them Finally in the xxix Chapter of the same booke hee doth flatly ouerrule our present case whereas by the Canon Law an heretike hath ipso facto lost all his goodes and therefore can make noe execution he affirmeth that it holdeth and bindeth not here for if he doe abiure hee hath forfeited noe goods but if hee be conuicted of heresie and deliuered to laye mens handes he hath forfeyted all his goodes that he hath at that time that he was deliuered vnto them but not his landes before that he be put to death To this the Doctor answereth me thinketh that as it onely belongeth vnto the Church to determine heresies that so it belongeth vnto the Church what punishmēt he shal haue for his heresie except death which they can not be iudges in but if the Church decree that therfore he shall forfeite his goods me thinkes that they be forfeyted by that decree vnto this obiection he thus answered vnder the name of student Nay verely for they be tēporall things and belong to the iudgement of the kings court And I thinke that the ordinarie might haue set no fine vpon one impeached of heresie vntill it was ordained by the statute of Henry the fourth that he may set a fine if hee see cause and that the king shall haue that fine If this were the vniuersall beliefe of all good Englishmen in the time when the Popes authoritie most flourished heere and before this controuersie arose that neither the Pope nor counsell nor Church hath authoritie to ordaine any temporall punishment for heresy can he be accounted a true Englishman that doth holde that the Pope can depriue her maiestie of her crowne and dignitie for a pretence of heresy Of the counsell of Laterane or that the Canon made in the counsell held at Laterane doth binde vs heere in England But because we vnderstand that the greatest scruple in conscience of our Catholickes Romane is grounded vpon this Canon we will make a particular treatise thereof and to vncomber and discharge their consciences shew first that it is no determination of faith that the Pope may depose princes and secondly that it doth not binde in this realme not onely because as I haue proued before the Church can make no decree of temporalities but also because by the verie Canon Lawe it neither is nor euer was in force within this realme and finally neither orderly executed according to the order of the Canon And first because I shall haue occasion to examine euerie worde of one member thereof I will set it downe verbatim worde for worde Ca. 33● Si ver● dominus temporalis requisitus admonitus ab ecclesia terram suam purgare neglexerit ab hac haeretica foeditate per Metropolitanum comprouinciales episcapos excommunicationis vinculo innodetur etsi satisfacer● contempserit intra annum significetur hoc summo pontifici Romano vt extunc ipse vasallos ab eius fidelitate denuntiet absolutos terram exponat Catholicis occupandam qui cam exterminatis haereticis sine contradictone possideant in fidei puritate conseruent ita quod bona huiusmodi damnatorum si laici fuerint confiscentur si vero clereci applicentur ecclesijs a quibus stipendia per ceperint Which may thus be englished If the temporall Lord beeing requested

worde saith hee signifieth also to gouerne It doth indeede properlie signifie to keepe sheepe as we terme it wherein wee include not onelie the feeding of them but also the care of looking to them that they take noe harme the dressing of them when they be ill and all other thinges belonging to the charge and duetie of a sheepehearde and properlie no other signification hath it but by a Metaphore to shewe with howe greate care mildenesse and lenitie kinges ought to gouerne their subiectes Homer and Plato doe often call kinges sheepeheardes of the people and so likewise the sacred scriptures In the twentith of the Actes we haue the same wordes where we reade Therefore looke vnto your selues and the whole flocke wherein the holie Ghost hath placed you Bishoppes and ouerseers in greeke poimaine the Church of God which he hath purchased him with his bloode Nowe that the Apostles or any Bishoppes had any secular power Pighius himselfe doth denie as long as the temporall princes had not receiued the Gospell so that this worde can by no meanes importe anie earthly superioritie And in this Oration Paule doth plainely declare what kinde of kingdome Christes is when hee saith to gouerne the Church of God which he purchased with his bloode for he purchased none with his bloode but t●●s spirituall kingdome for as GOD hee was possessed o● the Empyre of the whole worlde from the beginning But the place of binding and losing we haue examined alreadie and proued that it cannot be vnderstoode otherwise then Christ himselfe doth interpret it in the twenteth of Iohn whose sinnes ye shall remitte are remitted and whose sinnes yee shall retaine are retained and a receiuing into the Church and kingdome of heauen and a shutting out of it And therefore he saith whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on earth shall be bound in Heauen and not shall be bounde in earth least any man should dreame that he gaue Peter secular power ouer earthly Empires and that all the commandements and ordinances and decrees of his successors touching worldly matters should be receiued and kept throughout the whole world Neither if the Pope had any such authoritie giuen him by any generall Counsell A general counsell cannot depose Princes as I am assured he hath not for as for the canon made in the counsell of Laterane we will anone make a large seuerall treatise thereof were it good and sufficient to binde all Princes to obedience because it lieth not in the power of a generall counsell to dispose of secular matters For seeing generall counsells doe altogether consist of persons ecclesiasticall and they doe allow noe temporall prince any voice therein and that all the Byshoppes that are assembled there do sit as Byshops spirituall Lords not as temporal that they be secular subiects not soueraignes that the kingdom of the Church is a distincte kingdom as al the Catholickes say from the kingdomes of the world It is as absurd to holde that they can makes lawes touching temporalities to be obserued of all temporall Princes vnder temporall paines as if a madde man would affirme that the assembly of the three states of France may ordaine statutes for the Queenes maiesty of England hir realme and that they are bound in conscience to obserue all lawes made there For doubtlesse the temporall and the ecclesiasticall kingdomes are as seuerall kingdomes as Englande France which haue more alliance together then the other two because they are both secular both bodilie both ruled by one sword but of the other the one is spirituall the other bodily the one of the worlde the other of heauen the one swayed by the ciuill and materiall sworde ●he other by the spirituall the one slaying the soule the other the body But now I would not haue any fond man to imagine that I doe goe about to spoile the temporall prince of his high prerogatiue in ordaining of holsome lawes for the maintenance of the true faith of Christ and the sincere obseruation of all the rest of his holy commandementes the which I doe thinke him bound in conscience to doe but that I doe firmely beleeue and openly professe that by the right giuen him by God he may punish all persons both ecclesiasticall and temporall within his dominions that shall offend either in faith or manners by fine imprisonment banishment confiscation of landes and goodes attainder of blood death or finally any other temporall paines as the noble princes of this land haue alwaies vsed to doe And therefore Iustice Brian in Decimo of Henry the seauenth doth call the King a mixt person for he is saith Brian a person vnited with the priests of holy Church But I denie him the administration of gods holy sacraments and the exercise of the spirituall sworde which I doe appropriate vnto the ecclesiasticall officers Wherefore much lesse can the Byshoppes in a generall counsell giue away the crownes of their Kinges seeing according to the afore rehearsed rule of the Canon law noe man can giue that right vnto another which he hath not himselfe But if there were ordained a bodie politicke of all the Christian princes and states what they beeing assembled in a counsell generall might doe is annother question the which we will leaue to bee disputed of them that shall see this happe institution And in the meane time they must pardon vs if we doe not lightly beleeue that the Pope hath power to depose Princes seeing wee can finde no warrant therefore neither in the scriptures the auncient counsells the olde fathers the practise of the Church of God neither before Christ neither seauen hundreth years after him although there raigned many Idolatrous hereticall and wicked Princes Of the Iewish Kinges verye few were good but rather such men as GOD had streightly commaunded that they shoulde not spare if they were their Brothers or such a friende as hee looued as dearely as his owne soule but that his hand should bee first vppon him to stone him to death and yet wee doe not reade that any one of them was deposed by the high Priestes or his subiectes armed against him by them And yet were they so zealous men of their dignitie that they would in noe wise suffer the King to vsurpe ought vppon him in so much that one of them openly withstoode Ozias the King The history of king Ozias handled that woulde vnlawfully execute his office in offring incense vnto GOD neither doth the expelling of this King out of the temple by rhe Priestes because God had for his proude part stricken him with leprosie and that thereupon hee sequestred himselfe from companie and left the gouernement of matters of state vnto his sonne prooue ought against the prerogatiue of Princes The text saith 2. Coro 26.20 that they caused hastily to depart thence he was euen compelled to goe out as the English authour of the ecclesiasticall discipline doth inferre For hee was not expelled out of

hauock he made in all the the Churches subiect vnto him in Italy Sicileye and Sardinia and yet for all this Peter drewe not the sworde for hee yet remembred how bitterly his master had once checked him before for fighting Anno Dom. 700. Iustinianus the Emperour saith Diaconus commaunding Constantine the Pope to come vnto him honourably receiued him Constantine and sent him backe whom he beeing prostrated on the ground desired to be an intercessor vnto God for his sinnes renewed all the priuiledges of his Church why then the priuiledges were first giuen by the Emperour and not by God himselfe But that the Emperour fell downe at the Bishops feete it was done in respect not of his greatnesse but of his godlinesse a thing vsually done by great princes vnto ancient Monkes and Hermites renowned for their strict life and rare pietie whereof all Christian histories yeelde vs store of examples and this to be soe doth his request of intercession vnto GOD for his sinnes manifestly shewe But to returne againe to our practise about Anno Domini 690. another Iustinian the Emperour sent Zacharias his Protospatharius or high Constable into Italy for to bring Sergius the Bishop of Rome Sergius vnto him in Irons because he woulde not subscribe vnto a lewde counsell helde by him at Constantinople Sabell and he had done it if that the Emperiall Armie in Italy what for hatred of the Emperour and the good will of the Pope and his cause had not speedily marched to Rome to withstand his apprehension yet this Emperour did afterwarde renewe for Constantine the Bishop a confirmation of all the p●iuiledges of the Sea of Rome This Constantine was the first Bishop of Rome saith Omphrius the newe Chronicler of the Popes Qui in os ausus est resistere which durst resist the Emperours of Constantinople to their faces for he at the importunate petition of the people of Rome who requested it with great outcries decreede that the name of Philippicus the Emperour shoulde not be mentioned at the Aulter nor in anie writing or recordes nor his image set vp in their Churches because he had commaunded the Bishop to consent vnto his Arrianisme and the abolishing of the Images of Saintes But Paulus Diaconus who liued neare that time writeth that statuit populus the people decreede and not the Pope About Anno Domini 7●5 Leo Isauricus the Emperour commaunded Gregory the Bishop of Rome Gregorie the second to destroy all the images of the Saintes the which he refused to doe But although the Emperour did execute many therefore and about that matter banished the patriarch of Constantinople and had sundry times practised the Popes death both couertly and also by open forces causing the Eparch to bring his Armie before the Citie of Rome where he was repelled by the Lombardes yet woulde the Pope by no meanes be wonne to consent that a new Emperour should be chosen in Ital●e the which was now in a good forwardnesse the people hauing slaine Martin the gouernour of the Citie of Rome and his sonne the Lieuetenant of Campania and the Citizens of Rauenna the Eparch and had chosen them almost in euerie Citie newe officers But Gregorie woulde by no meanes consent thereunto but wonne them to be quiet with much a doe But when the Emperour woulde not desist from forcing of his edict for the abolishment of Images vppon the Romanes and the Italians Gregorie the third successor vnto the other helde a Counsell in Italie wherein he excommunicated the Emperour and then the Citizens of Rome and all the teritorie about called by the name of the Duchy of Rome reuolted from the Emperour who was negligent in defending them against the Lombardes that had sweeped him almost out of all Italie from Rome to the Alpes and soe the Pope became prince of the Citie and Duchie of Rome S. Sigon de regno Italiae and subiect vnto no man about the yeare 730. And to establish the state of the Romane principalitie by stopping of titles Zacharias the Pope wonne his Creator Pepine the french king to spoyle Aistulfus the king of the Lombardes of Rauenna by right whereof beeing the siege of the Gotish kingdome and the emperiall exarchate in Italy The Pope cannot depose princes he claimeth tribute of the Romanes and for to bestowe it vppon him and his successors for to take away all quarrell for euer Thus ye see that the Bishoppes of Rome were alwaies subiect vnto the temporall princes of the Citie vntill such time as the reuolting people had created him their prince as all other Bishops in ciuill soueraigne so that the Popes are not exempted of temporall subiection by the institution of GOD but by the election of men as the high priestes became to be soueraignes after the returne of the Iewes from Babylon there beeing ordained to be the temporall prince Then seeing by the ordinance of God the Pope was a subiect and by the creation of men beeing made a soueraigne onely ouer some certaine prouinces I cannot see howe eyther by Gods Law or mans hee can rightly claime anie authoritie to depose Christian princes at his pleasure no more then any other subiecte can his soueraigne or seuerall soueraignes one another to grant eyther of which is soe absurde that I shoulde shewe my selfe to haue verie little witte if I shoulde goe aboute to refute eyther as though any man that had common sense woulde doubte of them For to reason that Sixtus Quintus because hee is secular soueraigne ouer these prouinces which are called the patrimonie of Peter may therefore depose all other Christian princes is as good an argument as if I shoulde saie ELIZABETH is Queene of England therefore she may depose the prince of the patrimonie and all other Christian princes So that by prouing my first proposition that Christ gaue vnto Peter and his successors no soueraignetie secular I haue also conuinced the seconde that they can not depriue Christian princes of their principalities The Pope cannot depose the temporall soueraine Neyther is the Popes claime anie thing aduanced by those two sayinges of Christ vnto Peter which I doe finde alleadged by Gregorie the seuenth when hee first of anie Pope deposed Henry the fourth Emperour as the warrant of his doings Plati The first is feede my sheepe wherein hee did not sayde Gregorie exempt Kinges And the other whatsoeuer thou shalt binde on the earth shall be bound in Heauen and whatsoeuer thou doest loose in the earth shall be loosed in Heauen For I haue proued before that Christ his kingdome was spirituall and soe a spirituall charge of soules hee committed to Peter and the rest of the Apostles and their successors and noe Empyre ouer the bodies and goods of anie men But Doctor S●u●ders takes greate holde of the Greeke woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Poimaine which the Apostle vseth when Christ bad Peter the second time to feede his sheepe for that