Selected quad for the lemma: prince_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
prince_n	duke_n	king_n	poland_n	2,753	5	11.6962	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A26859	Richard Baxters answer to Dr. Edward Stillingfleet's charge of separation containing, I. some queries necessary for the understanding of his accusation, II. a reply to his letter which denyeth a solution, III. an answer to his printed sermon : humbly tendred, I. to himself, II. to the Right Honourable the Lord Mayor and the court of aldermen, III. to the readers of his accusation, the forum where we are accused.; Answer to Dr. Edward Stillingfleet's charge of separation. 1680	Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.	1680 (1680)	Wing B1183; ESTC R10441	92,845	104

forbidden by the Law Had that been separation And how cometh when and where to be in When we are forbidden every time and in every place to preach to more than four Is any time or place allowed us to preach in You mean He is a separatist who preacheth being forbidden by Law But I am ready to give you a fuller proof than is now to be offered on this occasion that no man hath authority to forbid a faithful Minister of Christ who forfeiteth not his Office-power to perform the office to which he is ordained And Secondly that we remain under a Divine obligation to it which such a Law 〈◊〉 dissolve As Bishop Bilson before saith if Princes forbid us we must go on with our work what if the King had turned against Episcopacy and Liturgy and forbad all the Episcopal to preach Would you think it sinful separation to preach By this you shew how easily you would lay down the work you are Vowed to if the Law did but forbid you How much then are Papist and Protestant Casuists mistaken that say the Law is null that is against the common good and that all power is only to edification And what limits do you set to this Till you tell us how can we judge of our separation what if an interdict silence all the Ministers in a Kingdome must all obey What if it be most must most obey What if it be more then can be spared without the Churches wrong And whose Laws be they that so binds us Is it Infidel Princes or only Christians Is it Papists Arrians Eutychians c. or only the Orthodox And do you set the people all to judge whether the King be Orthodox as the rule of their obedience to his Laws If I prove not that God bindeth me to preach call me disobedient but yet that will not prove me a separatist By this rule you may be a separatist as oft as the Law changeth if you will not change as fast as it Yea though you Judge the Laws impositious to be hainous sins yet you must do them all or give over your Ministry And so God must ask leave of the Rulers to be worshiped as God If he were a God of their making they might put him down And I think it will prove confusion and worse disobedience than our preaching is to lay all the peoples obedience herein on their opinion of the Rulers Orthodoxness no doubt but the heathen and heretical Rulers are Governours even of the Church though none hath power for destruction or against God The Duke of Brandenburghs Subjects judge him not Orthodox Are they therefore absolved from obeying him in matters of Religion Calvenists Subjects think Lutherane Princes not Orthodox and Protestants in France Hungary Poland judge their Papist Kings not Orthodox Yea what if we judge the Bishops not Orthodox that made the Cannons or Liturgy are we absolved from obeying them And what if any Subjects think that the King is not Orthodox And Parliaments who also make our Laws contain men of many minds And the Parliament of 1640. is said by the Bishops to have been far from Orthodox even to have been Presbyterians and Erastians and even for Rebellion and yet they made divers Laws which the King consented to and ratified Were not men obliged by those Laws And indeed if the Lawmakers being not Orthodox null his Laws about Religion why not all his other Laws But it may be you will say that it is not all the people that must judge whether the King and Parliament be Orthodox but the Bishops for them Ans But who shall judge whether the Bishops be Orthodox And if all be resolved into the implicite belief of the Bishops why not of the civil Rulers as well Or why not as the Papists on Pope and Councils I suppose to avoid all this you will not say that he is a separatist that preacheth when forbidden by any Prince whatsoever Turk Heathen Arrian Eutychian Idolater Papist Where then will you fix the notifying Character All men are heterodox in some degree How shall we know the degree which absolveth us from our obedience And how cometh an Orthodox man to be authorized to do mischiefs and forbid the needful preaching of the Gospel any more than a heretick or a Christian more than a heathen I think he is bound to do more good then they and not authorized to do more hurt God never made him a judge whether the Gospel shall be preacht or not nor whether the people shall be saved or left to perish in their ignorance and sin Either then all are separatists that preach against the Laws of Heathens Hereticks or Papists And so the Orthodox Churches have in many or most Ages and places been separatists or else we are cast upon confounding impossibilities to know who the separatist is Especially in Aristocracies and Domocracies where the Rulers are of many minds and the people can never know them all nor when the Orthodox have the Major Vote And I would know whether it be only Rightful Princes or also Usurpers whose Laws are the bond of the Churches Unity If of Usurpers then all the Prelates that conformed not in the times of the late Usurpation were Schismatical separatists by your definition But to do them right few of my acquaintance that could by conformity slay in did then refuse conformity I hear that you were then no separatist But Bishop Guning Dr. Wild Dr. Hide and a great many more took another course and will not thank you if you stigmatize them with us But if it be not the Laws of Usurpers in the Roman Empire by your measure How few were the Emperours that came not in by meer conquest or by killing putting out the eyes or ejecting their predecessors or without any justifiable right And what a case Rome Italy Spain and Africa were in after the first conquests of the Gothes and Vandals and all the Western Empire in the days of the Henries Frederick and many others while men were fighting for the Empire and Popes claimed the making and unmaking of them all And even in France ever since the days of Chilperic for many Ages especially among the progeny of Charles the great it is not to be hid This way you destroy or confound the Churches I cannot imagine what you will reply to this unless you say that it is neither the Title nor the Orthodoxness of Princes which is necessary to make their Lawes the bond of Church unity but it is the goodness of their Laws at least that they impose no sin upon us Ans 1. Then if the Usurpers imposed no sin they were Schismaticks that obeyed them not ● Let that be the rule who shall be judge whether it be sin or not If I be a discerner for my self I have told you how much and great sin I fear till you are displeased with the intimation And when you have proved all those particulars named to be no sins you have

and command in what words only every Pastor shall publickly pray to God and what Books and words of men he shall profess assent and consent to and what dedicating symbols of Christianity he shall use as engaging in the Christian Covenant and to command Ceremonies and Modes for dissent wherein he shall deny Baptism and Church-Communion to all dissenters though the things be taken to be indifferent by the Magistrate and great sins by the dissenters 3. And that all that obey not in all these but preach when forbidden or use other accidents or modes and choose other Pastors to ●e their Guides are Separatists and sin againg God II. On these grounds you judg me and such others sinful Separatists III. You justifie the executing of the Laws upon us and would have us silenced and such dissenters not endured It is our Conformity or our ceasing to preach which you plead for as the Cure § 6. I. As to your supposed ground 1. You know it 's like that in my first plea for peace I largely confuted it And could you think that without any reply your bare saying over the thing confuted could be any satisfaction to one of any sense or conscience 2. You cannot but know that the judgment and practice of the Uniyersal Church in East and West hath been against you not only for the first 300 years but for many hundred after Father Paul Sarpi after cited in his History of Church Revenues truly testifieth it I have proved it by many Canons and Histories in my Church History that he was to be taken as no Bishop that was chosen by Magistrates Prelates or any without the Clergies election and the Peoples election or consent Christians then took not this to be any part of the Princes trust but only to countenance the things that furthered Learning and Godliness and encourage the Clergy and People to choose the best and to protect and encourage and govern them by the sword when they were chosen This being past doubt were the Universal Church Separatists Is our Concent with the Universal Church or your singularity from it liker to Schism or Separation 3. I know that there are inconveniences in the Peoples consenting power and so there are in all humane affairs but not to be cured by pernicious mischiefs You will not tell me because you cannot tell me how we shall know what Magistrates they be that have this trust Whether Heathens Infidels Mahometans Socinians Arians Macedonians Eutkchians Monothelites Image-worshipers Papists Anabaptists or who and who must judge of their qualifications Yea were we sure that the Prince were Orthodox If he were but wicked debauched an enemy to serious practical piety as all wicked men naturally are inclined to be will not all such choose Bishops and Pastors like themselves what more natural than to propagate our like And will not wicked Bishops make wicked Priests And you know the Patron hath the choice with us and it 's a slender qualification which the Bishop hath power to require without a quare impedit An Atheist a Fornicator a drunkard a hater of holiness hath nevertheless the choice of a Priest for the Parish to whom all the People must entrust their Souls What a sad Case were the Christian World in if we may lawfully have no other Pastors than Gentlemen and Princes choose for us When Christ tells us how hard it is for the Rich to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven and how few of the Noble are called and in uno annulo c. is become a Proverb What a Case were Hungary Poland France Germany and the Greek Churches in if this were true 4. Personal power in man is the first Family power is the next City and Kingdom power supposeth these and cannot destroy them Hence subjects that are not meer slaves stand up to plead for their Personal and Domestick property liberty and power If my Money and Limbs and Life be not at the Patrons or the Princes will much less my Soul He is trusted with my Estate and Life but I am first and more trusted with them He may keep out ill Physitians from the Land and encourage the good but he hath no power to tie me to an ill Physitian nor to an ill Diet nor to ill Servants c. The choice of these belongeth to my self Much less can he on pretence of Parish-order tie me to an ignorant drunken Malignant or an unexperienced sapless Teacher that is to my Soul as a silly Emperick to my health Scripture and the Worlds experience tell how much God m●rrally giveth his light and grace according to the aptitude of means Habitus infusi se habent ad modum acquisitorum is common in the Schools Twenty sinners are usually sooner brought to repentance under skilful fit Teachers than under one unskilful or ungodly men And no man hath power from God to damn my Soul or forbid me the needful means of my salvation No man is so much concerned as my self what becometh of me for ever and I will not believe that the Patron loveth me and all the Parish better than we love our selves England hath been blest with better Rulers than other Lands But one Rule must in this be held to by all the Churches And if you would even here appeal to experience I will not here stay to tell you the names of 8 or 9 or 10 ignorant Readers most Drunkards some rarely half never preaching that I was bred under nor what a stock of such our Country had and how very thin pious tolerable preachers were nor what worthy men Aldermanbury Black-fryers the Inns-of-Courts and most places have had where the people chose But reason signifieth little with most who are on his side that talketh to them with the best advantage I insist on this You go against all the ancient Farthers and Churches for many hundred Years and are so far a Separatist from more than one Parish-Priest II. And therefore your Accusation of us thus grounded is Shismatical and unjust and recoileth on your self who instead of Gods Rule that all should walk by accuse them that walk not by your novel crooked Rules which may make as many Modish Religions as there are Princes III. And your desire of our silencing and not being tolerated I will only here lament and after speak to IV. And as your Cure by our Conformity is impossible so that by silencing will be none but increase the disease § 7. Is it not a very uncharitable thing of you that when it 's I whom you have called to account you flatly deny or shun to give me an Answer to my Case and to the Case of all others that preach only in Parishes where few of the People can hear in the Church Why ask you To what purpose should you resolve those Queries I Answer to shew me whether my preaching be my Sin or Duty And whether you justly or unjustly accused me and all such others was it not to this purpose

go to seek him in another Parish where he dwells when ever we need a Pastor's Councel were he at Leisure and willing he could not have time to speak to one of an Hundred that might at once wait to speak with him So that we have none of this necessary Pastoral Help when we greatly need it Yea not the Sixth or Tenth Part of the Parish can come to Hear him in the Church And when We that most desire it get in it troubleth us to think that we thereby keep out those that least desire it but most need it who knowing the Difficulty of getting Room do stay at Home and never seek it So that Five Parts of Six of our Neighbours use not to go to any Church at all no more than Infidels And if in pity we perswade them to go to any Nonconformist's Meeting they say the Clergy will Damn them as Schismaticks The Question now is Whether Ten Thousand or Twenty Thousand in a Parish are bound to live without all Private Pastoral Help and Councel yea and to forbear all Publick Worshipping of God and Hearing of his Word And if they seek Relief of Nonconforming Ministers Publickly and Privately Whether it be Sinful Separation If Men can spare the Ministry Why are they Maintained If they are needful for the Safety of Mens Souls Must so many Thousands hazard their Souls for want of needful Help lest they be called Separatists If the Dean of St. Pauls be called the Parson of the Parish and Preach to others that can Hear him Will that serve the Needs of all the rest XX. In Moscovie where a Christian Prince and the Laws forbid all Preaching and Publick Worship save the Reading of Homilies and Liturgies Is it Separation and Sinful Schism to Disobey this and otherwise to Preach and Worship God XXI Is it Schism in France and such other Countries for the Protestants to Meet to Preach and Worship God against the Wills of the King and Bishops It 's true that great Sin is necessarily thus avoided by them which are not Imposed upon us But if it prove that any Sin is made necessary to Communion the Degree will not much vary the Case as to the Point of Separation XXII In divers Countries the Prince is of one Religion or Mode of Religion and the Bishops of another The Question is Who are the Schismaticks the People that in their Assemblies and Mode of Worship do ●ollow the Prince or they that follow the Bishops Some great Writers for Conformity tell me That if the King Command one Liturgy Translation Version Ceremony c. and the Bishop another I must obey the Bishop before the King Others say I must Obey the King before the Bishop of which before Bishop Goodman of Glocester a Papist complaineth of the King that would not consent that Clergy-Men should be Chancellours And I speak with no Bishop that disowneth not Lay-Chancellours Use of the Keys The Helvetian Magistrates are Erastians against the Clergies Power of Excommunication Many of the Pastors are of the Contrary Judgment The Duke of Brandenburgh is a Calvinist His Bishops and Clergy are Lutherans Which Party are the Schismatick XXIII Were all those Separating Schismaticks who from the Apostles Dayes did Meet Preach and Worship God against the Will and Laws of Princes sometimes of Heathen Princes and sometimes of Christians Constantine Valens Theodosius the Second Anastasius Zeno Justinian c. If so most Christian Bishops have been such Separatists I have in my First Plea and my Church-History given Instances enough XXIV Is it Schism or Sinful Separation to Disobey a Command about Religion which no Man hath true Authority to Give Authority is the Objectum Formale of Obedience and where there is no Authority there is no Disobedience in a formal Sense or privative Most Politicks say That Princes have no Authority against the Common Good All Power of Princes and Pastors is of God and is for Edification and not for Destruction God giveth no Power against Himself or his Laws nor the Souls of Men. If the King should Command me to Marry a Wife whom I know to be intolerably unmeet for me or to Feed my self and Family with Food which I find to be against our Health or to use a Physician whose Ignorance or Negligence or Untrustiness would endanger my Life I am not bound to Obey him both because it is a Matter that is without the Verge of his Governing Authority and because it is against the End of Government Regal Power destroyeth not Family-Power nor Personal Interest and Self-Government No Man hath Power to Destroy or Endanger the Souls of Men nor forbid them seeking their own Edification and Salvation I Repeat Bishop Bilson's Words p. 236. of Subjection Princes have no Right to Call or Confirm Preachers but to Receive such as be Sent of God and give them Liberty for their Preaching and Security for their Persons And if Princes Refuse so to do God's Labourers must go forward with that which is Commanded them from Heaven Not by Disturbing Princes from their Thrones nor Invading their Realms as your Father doth and defendeth he may do but by mildly Submitting themselves to the Powers on Earth and meekly Suffering for the Defence of the Truth what they shall Inflict Pag. 399. The Election of Bishops in those Dayes belonged to the People and not to the Prince And though by plain Force he placed Lucius there yet might the People lawfully Reject him as no Bishop and cleave to Peter their Right Pastor On this I further ask XXV If the Nonconforming People can prove That notwithstanding the times of Civil Usurpation and Bishops Removal their Pastors had a Lawful Call and title to their Office over them and they were truly obliged to them as in that just Relation Whether the Magistrates or Bishops Acts have made those Relations and Obligations Null That the Temples and Tythes are in the Magistrates Power we doubt not But more than Bishop Bilson even many Councils deny it of the Office and Pastoral Relation Yea the Universal Church was of the same mind And if so how prove you e. g. that the Relation of the Ejected London Ministers and their Flocks was Dissolved and that the Succeeders were true Pastors to the Non-consenting Flocks XXVI That there are Alas Multitudes of Young Raw Injudicious besides Scandalous Priests no Man can deny that knoweth England and hath any Modesty If then honest People that are not willing to be Damned shall say We best know what is suitable to our Needs and what Teachers profit us and what not And we find that some are so Ignorant that they are unmeet as Plowmen to resolve the most concerning Cases of Conscience and their Conversation savoureth not of any serious belief of Christianity and the World to come and they do but Read a few dry words like School-Boyes saying a Weak Oration without Life or Seriousness and we can but little profit by them How prove you