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A16170 A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist. Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628. 1598 (1598) STC 3092; ESTC S102284 61,282 90

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by little and little they came to take place aboue all Bishoppes Archbishops Metropolitans Primates Patriarkes which began to be vsed by little and little about the time of Gregory the seuenth Vrbane the second in which times the election of the Pope whose authority did then begin to be supreame as well in spirituall thinges as temporall the Emperours being depressed or trodden downe was taken out of the hands and power of the Emperours and granted especially to the Cardinals And anone after a Priest Cardinall was a meane place between a Bishop other Priestes not Cardinals But in the time of Alexander the third vnder whom the Church of Rome was aduanced to the highest top or step in earth the most mighty Emperour Fredericke Redbeard he also a most infestious foe of the Church of Rome being trodē vnder foot vanquished and forced to desire peace of the Church then first contrariwise Priest Cardinals were made of Bishops for the dignity of the Cardinals did stil grow with the dignity of the Church Bishops of Rome but that was greatest in those daies Thus farre Omphrius But because Platina others do affirme that the Pope the Emperour first fell out about symony or inuesting of Bishops let vs see how iniuriously herein the Pope dealt with the Emperour It doth appeare both by the Bookes of the canon law also by Sigonius and other historians the Popes chiefe fauourers that Pope Hadriā gaue vnto Charles the great the king of the french men Emperour of Rome Leo the eight vnto Otho the great the king of the Tuischtmen Emperour for euer the inuesture of the Bishops of Rome of al other Bishops within their dominions decreeing that no Bishop chosen by the clargy and people should be consecrated vnlesse he were first nominated inuested that is had the crosier and ring deliuered him by the Emperour this authority priuiledge enioied al Emperours from Charles the great vnto this Henry being the 17 in succession and that he vsed it no otherwise it is aparant by the election of the Bishop of Cullen by the clergy the people a little while before this broile wherof we do read mention made in Lambertus Snatchburgensis A thing alwaies vsed in England that neyther Bishop nor Abot should be chosen without a conge de ler or licence to chose first obtained of the king nor reputed for Bishop before the king had confirmed him So likewise Hosius contra Brentium doth affirme that the kings of Poland haue alwaies had the nominating of all Bishps with in their kingdom Now of this anciēt part of his patrimony of the Empyre would Gregorie spoyle Henry yea and all lay men making a decree that he should be accursed that did take any ecclesiasticall dignitie or benefice at the hande of any lay man See Platina and Sabell and did also excommunicate the lay man that should giue any nowe I pray you which of them two shewed most charitie Henry that for quietnesse sake was contented to loose the right which he and his ancestors had so long time held in confirming of the Bishops of Rome in the cause and bloodie schisme of Alexander Gregories immediate predecessor or Gregorie that was not contented and satisfied with this rare indulgence of the Emperour in one and the greatest Bishoppricke but would depose him vnlesse he would also surrender his right in all the rest eyther would haue his wil or else would set all Christendome in an vprore And put case he had solde two or three small Bishopprickes as his enemies did charge him for the great electors sees they themselues beeing his enemies confessed he had not sold was that a sufficient cause to make him forsake him and his successors for euer an ancient right and inheritance belonging to the emperiall crowne as the presenting vnto benefices is an inheritance of many secular subiectes And could the Church of Christ be so much endamaged therby as with thirtie yeares bloodie warres in all partes of Germanie and Italy through the troubles whereof neyther the Popes nor other Bishoppes could employ their functions But letting this passe Philippe the next deposition was of Philip the Emperour for inuading Peters patrimony before he was Emperour and while he was duke of Tuscan But because some will say he was neuer Emperour because through the Popes menaces but fiue of the electors had chosen him we will let him passe and come vnto Otho Otho the Duke of Saxon whom two of the electors afterward at the great instance of the Pope had chosen Emperour and whom he almost immediatly after he had crowned him deposed because he inuaded the landes of his puple and vassall the king of Naples Did this come of charitie or of a priuate quarrell It is apparant that the Popes vsed not nor now doe to censure anie prince for enuading of his neighbour vnlesse he were a vassal or priuiledged prince of his And then to make vp the good three comes on a row Fredelicke the second Emperour Frederick and also king of Naples for inuesting of Bishoppes in Naples and leuying money of the clergie And after the controuersie was ended againe because he did not performe his vow to goe into the holy land and that also satisfied for making warres against the rebellious Lombardes or to make the verie worst of it for practising with the Frangipanes and other Romanes to reuolt from the Pope whom he distrusted did secretly ayde his rebelles in Lombardy And did not flesh and blood and priuate reuenge raigne in all these actions were any of these causes so weightie that for them should be raised vp the pernicious factions of Guelses and Ghibbelines to set at enmitie for euer not onely euery prince prouinc● and Citie of Italy but also euery name and familie for to embrace their murdering swordes The last deposed Emperour was Lewes the fourth Lewes See Platina and Nauill because he intermedled in Italie before the Pope had crowned him a vsuall thing and that which was the very cause indeede because he openly professed himselfe a fauourer of the Ghibbelines and namely the vicecount whom the Pope deadly hated and had excommunicated for taking armes against the Guelses and put the Florentines and the Neopolitanes and the other Guelses in feare least he would saith Platina ex●ct of them Iura imperia●a the rightes belonging to the Empyre And who seeth not heere partiality and not charitie Moreouer Peter Peter the king of Aragon was deposed and his kingdom of Aragon giuen vnto Charles of Valois the French kinges brother because he had receiued the Sicilians reuolting from the tyranny of Charles the Duke of Aniou whom the Pope had placed prince there And doth not also smell of priuate reuenge Is this the common good that Pighius beareth vs in hand the Church of Christ reapeth by this prerogatiue of the Pope that he doth therby reuenge the priuate
because he would not accept at his cōmandement Langton for Archbishoppe anone after excōmunicated Langton and the Byshoppes and the Barrons his confederates because they woulde force the King to performe the oath which his owne legate had commaunded the King to sweare at the attonement making for the restoring of the auncient lawes of the land if the lawes were vniust and it was a wronge to constraiee the King to restore them why did hee force the King to sweare the restitution of them But if they weare iust good and godly and for the publicke profitte why did he not rather assist then excommunicate them that sought to force the king to keepe his bodily oath made vnto him and them the which he had also done at his coronation yea and had made at the time of the peace with the Pope a Charter of them which also this Pope himselfe confirmed Now the case was altered Although indeede this case was of greater moment and the Pope must still pleasure his friendes First his cardinall was to be aduaunced to an Archbyshoppricke and then the king his new vassall was to be enfranchised of all othes and honesty and vpholden and maintained with both sworde● in all tyranny and villanie If any credit is to bee giuen to all the Catholicke Cronicles of that age And this I speake not for that I doe like or allow the rebellion of the Barons Lib. 9. but to shew the irreligious pertiality of the vniust peruerse passionate Pope I doe also finde in Cromerus that the Archbyshoppe of Gnesne did excommunicate Boleslaw the balde one of the Polonian Princes Duke of Legnitz for taking prisoner the byshoppe of Preslen and certain other of that Church and detaining them in prison And when that for all this he woulde not release them without ransome Pope Alexander the fourth willed the Archbyshoppe to proclame a Croly against him in Polen and the Archbyshoppe of Magdenburge annother in Germany But these excommunications for imprisoning of Prelates to proceede of partialitie is manifestly discouered by the same Cromerus who writes that not farre from the same time another Archbyshoppe of Gnesne did excommunicate Boleslawe the chast duke of the lesser Polen and interdicted the whole prouince because certaine young Gentlemen had eyther by the commission or permission of Boleslaw the chast taken and kept one moneth in honorable custodie Paule the Byshoppe of Craccow because that contrary to his calling he was wholly giuen to pleasures hunting and letchery was grieuous to his subiectes stubburne towardes his Prince neither would mende his manners for the entreatie admonishmēt of his Chapter and Prince but also tooke a Nunne out of a Nunery kept hir for his Concubine Yet was the Godly Prince forced to let loose this vngodly prelate to giue him two hundred pounde of siluer for a mendes whereas if he had giuen him his desert a halter he had preuented a daungerous and bloodie Rebellion afterwarde in reuenge hereof procured by the Bishoppe also a pitifull wasting of the country done by the Lythuanians at his traiterous instigation Hitherto ye haue heard not of one Prince deposed for Christes and the common causes but all for priuate quarels here I willingly and wittingly omitte the depriuations of Sicilian and Neapolitaine Princes and all other ouer whom the See of Rome clameth to haue Soueraignetie secular And I can finde onely foure Princes deposed for Religion The first Raimond Earle of Tolowsen Since the writing of this booke Henry king of Nauarre hath been ●●priued of his dominions by the P ●● whether because he did embrace the Religion of the Albigenses or because he did not expell them out of his dominions of certainety I know not The seconde George Pogrebrot the King of Boemia for maintaining the doctrine reuiued by Iohn Hus And the third and fourth Henry the eight and his daughter Queene Elizabeth our renowned Princes and dreade Soueraignes And although some hott headed Catholickes Romaine will perhappes praise the Popes zeale in deposing of our Princes yet must they needes all confesse that it was done smally for the weale of him his friendes here and therefore done without iudgement and discretion And that these ma●do bulles haue killed many and hurt more of the Popes friendes and fauourers but not done one halfe penny worth of harme vnto them against whome they were sent And how smally they haue bene regarded of the Popes most deuoutest children it may apparantly appeare by the leagues made by Charles the Emperour and Charles the french King with King Henry and her maiesty after they were excommunicated and depriued by the Popes and the one an euerlasting league both offensiue and defensiue to the euerlasting shame of such subiectes as haue sought to reuolt or shall wickedly beare armes against the soueraigne in that vniust quarrell But to conclude if wee doe wisely weigh the matter and carefully call to minde all the wofull warres and wastes massacres miseries and calamities that this practise of deposing of Princes hath wrought wee shall finde that the West Church hath beene more wasted and weaken●● thereby and that it hath caused the murder of moe men then all the cruel persecutions of the heathen heretickes and all the bloodie swordes of the Turkes and Saracens Thus hauing shewed that this deposing of Princes is neither authorised by the word of God nor warranted by the practise of the Iewish nor Christian Church within one thousand yeares after Christ nor then deuised or since practised The Pope cannot release subiectes of their aleagiance for the profitte and benefitte of the Christian common weale Let vs goe vnto our third propositiō that the Pope cannot loose subiects of their natural duetifull faith and obedience vnto their Princes It is the common opinion of all diuines Catholicke Romaine that the Pope can not dispense in those things which are ordained by God But this obedience to princes to be cōmāded by the law of god it is most manifest by the places which we haue afore alleaged out of the sacred Scriptures in the first proposition Wherefore as Christ saide of Marriage those whom God hath ioyned togeather let noe man separate and doth pronounce him to be an adulterer that doth put away his wife and marrieth annother vnlesse it be for fornication notwithstanding that Moses had for the hardnesse of the Iewes harts permitted them many other causes So likewise may not the Pope separate the subiectes marryed to their prince for so they are solemnely by a ring in our lande from the Prince for any other causes then such as God hath ordained and what subiecte soeuer shall for any causes put away his Prince and take annother committeth rebellion and treason And as Christ did abrogate that permission of Moses so likewise must that of the Popes be repealed and so much the rather because the Popes constitutions are not so well warranted as were Moses ordinances who receiued them
displeasures of himselfe his friendes and vassalls At the same time the french king Philip le Beau had spoyled Edward the fi●st king of England iniuriously of the greatest parte of Guienne and also Guy the Eare of Fuaunders almost of his whole Earldome and was not deposed therefore The cause is apparant Sicily was held of the Church of Rome and so was neither Guienne nor Flaunders But although he escaped scot-free for these wronges and the long detayning in prison the Earle of Flaunders and two of his sonnes yet he was depriued of his kingdome by Pope Boniface the eight Philip the faire for imprisoning of a french Bishop that rayled at him and menaced him when he coulde not winne him to grant to goe with an Army into the holy land on the which message the Pope had sent him vnto the king as saith Platina But the french Chronicles report that the king caused him to be apprehended at home at his owne house for that he vnderstoode that he vsed often to speake very ill of him and to rayle outragiously on hm and deliuered him vnto his primate the Bishop of Tolouse to punish him with his aduise The kingdome of France was giuen vnto Albert the Emperour perhappes for a reward of his wickednesse in slaying of his soueraigne Adolph the Emperour for other punishment I doe not finde that Pope did put him vnto therefore See Mun●ter cos●●●mog lib. 3. in Al. 2. But yet I doe not doubt but the fault was more heinous then emprisoning of a Bishop for rayling against his prince and Lord. Yea and that God did so account it he made it manifest vnto the worlde by his seuere punishment of all the conspiratours For Albert himselfe was murdered by his owne Cosen germane the Archbishop of Ments founde deade sitting in his chaire The Bishop Stasburge was slaine by a pesant at F●●●●nge in Brisgow The Earle of Linengen died ma●de The Earle of Sweibrucken was drowned in a riuer The Earle of Ochsenstein had his deaths wound in the battell And the Earle H●●gerloch was slaine on the way by Otho the Duke of Danao But to proceede Lewes th 12 of France was excommunicated denounced a scismatike and his kingdome and goods exposer for a common spoyle to all Christians and the like penalty pronounced on all them that did or should take his part or ayde him Lewes the twelfih And therefore Iohn the king of Nauarre lost his kingdome for procuring of a generall counsell to be called and held without the consent of the Pope against the Pope that there his infestious foe Iul●us the second might be deposed an other more frendly placed in his roome And doth not this altogether smell of priuate reuenge and not of charity But perhaps you will say it was a foule part of him that would be called the most Christian king to sow sedition and scisme throughout all Christendome for his owne priuate quarrell and that this doing of his was so ill thought of by most of the pri● 〈…〉 of Christendome that they entred therefore into league against him and had almost set him besides his saddle In truth I can neyther prayse the practise nor the pollicie of the French who sought to represse the iniurious attemptes of the Pope against him rather by colour of lawe to the disturbance of all Christendome then by armes and inuading the Popes territories as Philippe the moderne king of Spayne wisely did in the like case and fondely thought it lesse enuyous Anno Domini 556. and more agreeable vnto his surname of the most Christian king which his ancest●rs had purchasesed by defending the Popes and Peters patrimony with armes to rayse vp a scisme then to force the Pope to frindship by materiall force But that the Pope compelled him to this outrage all writers doe confesse For first contrary to the league made at Cambray betweene him the Emperour the French king the king Spaine and the Duke of Ferara against the Venetians who had encroched vpon thē all he hauing gotten all that he claimed ●ee Iouius ●n vita Al●hons ●●uiciardi●●o not onely made peace with the Venetians without the consent of his confederates but also excōmunicated and with armes enuaded the fast friend of the French the Duke of Ferara because that he not hauing yet recouered all his right of them would not cease to molest the Venetians And also he left no stone vnturned to turne the French out of Milan an Genna the which he at the length brought to passe And was not he then the author of all his tragedie Moreouer this Popes brothers sonne Duke of Vrbine cruelly murdered of emulation Alidosius a Bishop a Cardinall See Iouius ●n vit Alphons Guic. Boleslaw and Legate of Bologna almost in the Popes sight and was put to no penance therefore But Boleslaw the hardie king of Poland was depriued by Pope Gregorie the seuenth of his kingdome and also the country of the honour to haue a king in the which dishonour it continued 200 yeares f●●●●ying with his owne hande in his fury Stanislaw the Bishop of Craccow for excommunicating him yea and interdicting the whole Citie of Craccow to make him the more odious because he openly kept another mans wife and for adultery a thing which as it should seeme by Cromerus as common in Poland in those daies as the cart way Yea those noble women that were honest were forced to forsake there owne howses See Cromerus hist Pola lib. 4. for feare of force and rauishment yea and it was common in Italy and passed vnpunished in meaner men then princes But yet in verie trueth the kinges fact was verie foule and made worse by the furie of his fellowes that chopped in peeces the slayne corpes and cast it to the crowes And yet perhaps Dauid did almost all ill in defiling of a noble mans bed while he was in his seruice in the fielde and afterward commaunding him to be murdered for his amendes but so dealt not Bolislawe with Stanislaw and if the qualities of the persons be not equall then the manner of the doing doth ouermatch the one being done without any prouocation and of aduised malice the other vppon a greate ignominy vnwonted with kinges offered him and vpon a sodaine while his blood was hotte which seauen yeares continuall absence from his countrie in forraine warres a little before had ouerheated And yet Dauid lost not his Kingdome therefore Neither doe we reade of any realme interdicted for murdering of their Kinges whereof we haue almost infinite examples or any man deposed for intruding into them by such wickednesse vnlesse perhappes the murdered Prince were the Popes vassall Soe that this zeale in seuere punishing of princes for misusing them of the clergy I feare me may be imputed rather to a partiall fauour towardes them of their owne coate and done for their owne securitie then for zeale of Iustice Like as our Sargeants at