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A16170 A courteous conference with the English Catholikes Romane about the six articles ministred vnto the seminarie priestes, wherein it is apparantly proued by their owne diuinitie, and the principles of their owne religion, that the Pope cannot depose her Maiestie, or release her subiectes of their alleageance vnto her. And finally, that the bull of Pius Quiutus [sic] pronounced against her Maiestie is of no force eyther in lawe or conscience, all Catholicke scruples to the contrarie beeing throughly and perfectly cleared and resolued, and many memoriall matters exactly discussed, which haue not beene handled by man heeretofore. Written by Iohn Bishop a recusant papist. Bishop, John, d. 1613.; Frewen, John, 1558-1628. 1598 (1598) STC 3092; ESTC S102284 61,282 90

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by little and little they came to take place aboue all Bishoppes Archbishops Metropolitans Primates Patriarkes which began to be vsed by little and little about the time of Gregory the seuenth Vrbane the second in which times the election of the Pope whose authority did then begin to be supreame as well in spirituall thinges as temporall the Emperours being depressed or trodden downe was taken out of the hands and power of the Emperours and granted especially to the Cardinals And anone after a Priest Cardinall was a meane place between a Bishop other Priestes not Cardinals But in the time of Alexander the third vnder whom the Church of Rome was aduanced to the highest top or step in earth the most mighty Emperour Fredericke Redbeard he also a most infestious foe of the Church of Rome being trodē vnder foot vanquished and forced to desire peace of the Church then first contrariwise Priest Cardinals were made of Bishops for the dignity of the Cardinals did stil grow with the dignity of the Church Bishops of Rome but that was greatest in those daies Thus farre Omphrius But because Platina others do affirme that the Pope the Emperour first fell out about symony or inuesting of Bishops let vs see how iniuriously herein the Pope dealt with the Emperour It doth appeare both by the Bookes of the canon law also by Sigonius and other historians the Popes chiefe fauourers that Pope Hadriā gaue vnto Charles the great the king of the french men Emperour of Rome Leo the eight vnto Otho the great the king of the Tuischtmen Emperour for euer the inuesture of the Bishops of Rome of al other Bishops within their dominions decreeing that no Bishop chosen by the clargy and people should be consecrated vnlesse he were first nominated inuested that is had the crosier and ring deliuered him by the Emperour this authority priuiledge enioied al Emperours from Charles the great vnto this Henry being the 17 in succession and that he vsed it no otherwise it is aparant by the election of the Bishop of Cullen by the clergy the people a little while before this broile wherof we do read mention made in Lambertus Snatchburgensis A thing alwaies vsed in England that neyther Bishop nor Abot should be chosen without a conge de ler or licence to chose first obtained of the king nor reputed for Bishop before the king had confirmed him So likewise Hosius contra Brentium doth affirme that the kings of Poland haue alwaies had the nominating of all Bishps with in their kingdom Now of this anciēt part of his patrimony of the Empyre would Gregorie spoyle Henry yea and all lay men making a decree that he should be accursed that did take any ecclesiasticall dignitie or benefice at the hande of any lay man See Platina and Sabell and did also excommunicate the lay man that should giue any nowe I pray you which of them two shewed most charitie Henry that for quietnesse sake was contented to loose the right which he and his ancestors had so long time held in confirming of the Bishops of Rome in the cause and bloodie schisme of Alexander Gregories immediate predecessor or Gregorie that was not contented and satisfied with this rare indulgence of the Emperour in one and the greatest Bishoppricke but would depose him vnlesse he would also surrender his right in all the rest eyther would haue his wil or else would set all Christendome in an vprore And put case he had solde two or three small Bishopprickes as his enemies did charge him for the great electors sees they themselues beeing his enemies confessed he had not sold was that a sufficient cause to make him forsake him and his successors for euer an ancient right and inheritance belonging to the emperiall crowne as the presenting vnto benefices is an inheritance of many secular subiectes And could the Church of Christ be so much endamaged therby as with thirtie yeares bloodie warres in all partes of Germanie and Italy through the troubles whereof neyther the Popes nor other Bishoppes could employ their functions But letting this passe Philippe the next deposition was of Philip the Emperour for inuading Peters patrimony before he was Emperour and while he was duke of Tuscan But because some will say he was neuer Emperour because through the Popes menaces but fiue of the electors had chosen him we will let him passe and come vnto Otho Otho the Duke of Saxon whom two of the electors afterward at the great instance of the Pope had chosen Emperour and whom he almost immediatly after he had crowned him deposed because he inuaded the landes of his puple and vassall the king of Naples Did this come of charitie or of a priuate quarrell It is apparant that the Popes vsed not nor now doe to censure anie prince for enuading of his neighbour vnlesse he were a vassal or priuiledged prince of his And then to make vp the good three comes on a row Fredelicke the second Emperour Frederick and also king of Naples for inuesting of Bishoppes in Naples and leuying money of the clergie And after the controuersie was ended againe because he did not performe his vow to goe into the holy land and that also satisfied for making warres against the rebellious Lombardes or to make the verie worst of it for practising with the Frangipanes and other Romanes to reuolt from the Pope whom he distrusted did secretly ayde his rebelles in Lombardy And did not flesh and blood and priuate reuenge raigne in all these actions were any of these causes so weightie that for them should be raised vp the pernicious factions of Guelses and Ghibbelines to set at enmitie for euer not onely euery prince prouinc● and Citie of Italy but also euery name and familie for to embrace their murdering swordes The last deposed Emperour was Lewes the fourth Lewes See Platina and Nauill because he intermedled in Italie before the Pope had crowned him a vsuall thing and that which was the very cause indeede because he openly professed himselfe a fauourer of the Ghibbelines and namely the vicecount whom the Pope deadly hated and had excommunicated for taking armes against the Guelses and put the Florentines and the Neopolitanes and the other Guelses in feare least he would saith Platina ex●ct of them Iura imperia●a the rightes belonging to the Empyre And who seeth not heere partiality and not charitie Moreouer Peter Peter the king of Aragon was deposed and his kingdom of Aragon giuen vnto Charles of Valois the French kinges brother because he had receiued the Sicilians reuolting from the tyranny of Charles the Duke of Aniou whom the Pope had placed prince there And doth not also smell of priuate reuenge Is this the common good that Pighius beareth vs in hand the Church of Christ reapeth by this prerogatiue of the Pope that he doth therby reuenge the priuate
happely they could bring him within the compasse of treason by denying the paiment of tribute vnto the Emperour and so procure his death by the Romaine president as seditious And therefore he asked them why they tempted him and willed them to shew him a peny and then he demaunded of them whose image was stamped on the peece and they answered the Emperours then saide he giue the Emperour that which is his and so likwise ynto god that which is gods a very obscure sentence giuen by a iudge in a sute but a wise and wittie answere for such false traterous Interrogants And with the like trisles doth the same Felisius also trouble vs when he goeth about to proue the exemption of the clergy frō free subiection of secular princes because Melchisdech was both a king and a priest so likewise Moses a priest supreme gouernor of the Iseralites And finally Hely was both high priest and also secular Prince or iudge of the Iewes For if Melchisedech were both a King and a Priest what is that to the controuersie that we haue now in hand whether that Priestes be subiect vnto the temporall Prince but perhaps it touched the matter if we had disputed whether that a Bishop may be also a temporall Prince See Fenestella As for a King to be a Priest was an vsual thing in many countries among the heathen Yea all the Romaine Kings had the chiefe charge of the sacrifices temples and worshippe of the gods and therefore when the Kinges were expelled they ordained a priest whom they called the sacrificing King who should execute those publicke sacrifices which did of right belong vnto the Kings function but for hatred of their kings made him subiect vnto the chiefe Priest or Pontifiex Maximus the which office of Pontifiex Maximus all the heathen Romaine Emperours continually had See Dion c. But that Moses was both the ciuill magistrate and also a priest it maketh very much against himselfe for although we doe grant that Moses was a Priest yet it is most manifest that he was not high Priest but his brother Aaron whome yet to be subiect vnto Moses all men seene in the sacred scriptures do knowe so that nothing can make more for the superioritie of the ciuill magistrate then this example that Aaron being high Priest and head and chiefe of all Priestes was yet subiect to Moses an ordinary Priest Moses was a prophet and not a priest because he had the soueraigntie temporall Likewise what is it to the purpose if that Hely the high Priest was also created secular magistrate for so were all the high Priestes after the returne of the people from Babilon vntill they were conquered by the Romaines and the kingdome was giuen by them vnto Herodes a stranger and Idumean Now seeing we haue aboundantly prooued in generall the superioritie of the ciuill magistrate ouer all men liuing within their dominions both by expresse places of scripture and authorities of auncient fathers and also conuinced the subiection of the high Priest in the olde law vnto the ciuill Prince and clearely shewed Christs kingdom to be spirituall and that he gaue none other to Peter and the rest of the Apostles and their successors and haue fully answered all obiections of the aduersaries I will descende vnto practise and prooue the superioritie of Emperours and Italian Kings ouer the Popes and Bishoppes of Rome by the prescripsion of seauen hundreth yeares after Christ 〈◊〉 kinde of proofe which we Catholickes Romaine exact of the Protestants crying vnto them to shew their successiion But because Pighius the Popes proctor in the secular primacy doth subiect his client vnto the heathen Emperours The Pops subiect to the Emperours and Italian kings I neede fetch my limmitation noe higher then Constantine the greate the first Christian Emperour Now to shew how he banished Bishoppes perhappes will be thought to small purpose because they doe giue this earthly Empire not vnto the Clergy but onely vnto the Bishoppe of Rome as Christs lieuetenant generall in all causes as well spirituall as temporall See for these histories Paul Dia● Platina and Sabellicus But I doe finde that his sonne and successor Constantius did banish Liberius the Bishoppe of Rome because he would not subscribe to the deposition of Athanasius and caused another to be c●osen in his place Moreouer when the Cytie of Rome and the Country of Italy came by conquest into the possession of the Ostrogothes in Anno Domin 483. Liberius Theodoricus the King of the Ostrogothes or of Italy commanded to come before him to Rauenna whether he had transferred the seate of the Empire of Italy leauing the city of Rome in the gouernement of the Senate Symmachus And least some man vnskilfull of antiquities should dreame that it was then the Popes by the donation of Constantine Theodoricus I say summoned before him at Rauenna Symmachus and Laurentius who contended for the Bishopperickes of Rome to the diuision of the whole Cytie I●hn that he as soueraing might determine the controuersy vpon hearing of the matter And afterward when Iustinus Emperour of Constantinople had banished the Arrians out of all his dominions Theodoricus sent Iohn the byshoppe of Rome and their Senatours Embassadours vnto Iustinus willing them in threatning sort to tell the Emperour from him that vnlesse hee did spedily restore to the Arrians theire Churches and suffer them to liue in peace that he would extinguish 〈…〉 Italy They comming to 〈…〉 honorably receiued by him did with 〈…〉 beeing very hoofull for the safetie of themselues and 〈◊〉 countrymen entreat the Emperour gratiously to graunt the ●●nor of their Embassage although it were vniust and to haue regard and compassion of Italy which otherwise would vtterly perish with whose teares the Emperour beeing mooued granted them their request But when the Bishoppe with his associates were returned to Rauenna to make relation vnto the King of the Emperours answere Theodoricus mooued with malice because 〈◊〉 a defender of the Catholicke pietie had receiued him so honorably killed him and his fellowes with painefull imprisonment Then Theodotus annother king of the Ostrogothes sent Agapetus Agapetus the Bishoppe of Rome Embassadour as his subiect vnto Iustinian the Emperour which Iustinian not long after hauing recouered Rome from the Ostrogothes did not by his Lieuetenant but by his Lieuetenant Belsarius his wife spoyle Siluerius Silberius the Bishoppe of Rome of his Bishopprick● Bishoppes robes and putting him in monasticall needes confined him into an out Iland Charging him that he would haue betrayed the gate Asmaria that adioyned vnto his house vnto the Ostrogothes but in deed perhappes there was some other priuie grudge hidden in the Empresse her heart But the manner of the doing doth manifestly declare for how smale Princes Popes were reputed in those daies for Belsarius sending an officer for him the Bishoppe was brought into his bedde Chamber because Belsarius sate by his
wife who being that day come from Naples wary was laide downe on her bedde But the proude Dame had no sooner sene the Bishoppe but she began to 〈◊〉 and saide oh sirrha wherein haue I or my Belisarius so so●e offended your maistershippe that you should betraye vs vnto the Gothes and immediatly b●d away with him not suffering him to speake one word And in his roome was one Vigilius Vigilius placed who not long after refusing to restore vnto his seate Anthenius who had bene depriued of the Bishopbricke of Constantinople for the heresy of Eutiches Th●odora the Empresse who fauoured Anthenius commanded to be arrested at Rome and sent prisoner to Constantinople where when being vrged with this vniust request he had broken out into this impatient speach that he had thought he had come to Iustinian but that now he well perceyued it was to Dioclesian He was so well whipped for forgetting his lesson in the two and twentith of Exodus Non maledices principi populi tui thou shalt not speake ill to the prince of thy people that he was almost slaine I doe thinke noe Christian or ciuill Emperour much lesse Iustinian woulde so seruilely haue v●ed him whom he reputed the monarch of the world and anone after was ignominiously drawen along the cyty in a halter and then put in prison where he continued many yeares with onely breade and water Anno Domini 591. Pelagius Pelagius the Byshoppe of Rome sent Gregory who succeded him in the see vnto Mauritius the Emperour of the east to desire him not to be offended for that he had suffered himselfe to be denounced Byshoppe before hee had obtained his consent and confirmation for he coulde not sende before that time to Constantinople because the cytie of Rome had bene straitely beseiged by the Lombards Now in those dayes saith Platina and all other Historians writing of those times and affaires the election of the Byshoppe of Rome was voide without the Emperours assent and conformation And now we are come to Gregory himselfe surnamed the greate a man in such credit with the Popes of latter times and the Catholickes Romaine Greg●●y the great that they and wee doe more follow him in the diuine seruice and ceremonies then all the rest that euer satte in that see before him and therefore I doe hope that you will the more willingly allowe and embrace his opinion and iudgement of the secular soueraignytye As I doe not doubte but yee will cauell at manye of my former examples as vniust and tyrannicall the which I will not greately sticke to grant you and yet they doe strongly prooue the superioritie of those princes and that they were there lawfull although lawlesse soueraignes for as substantially doe the banishmentes of the Catholicke Byshoppes by the hereticall Emperours conuince the soueraignetie of the Emperours ouer the Byshoppes as the confining of the heriticall Byshoppes by the Catholicke Emperours Neyther am I lesse assured of the subiection of the Byshoppes of Asia vnto the Emperour of Constantinople for that I reade that Valens banished the Catholicke Byshoppes thereof then I am when I finde that Theodosius banished the Arrian Byshoppes of Asia For neuer shall wee finde that when the Empire was deuided that euer the Emperours of the East of what Religion soeuer they were did bannish the Byshoppes of the West nor contrarye wise but eyther dealte onely with them that were vnder their owne Empire and who would haue a better proofe that this Island was subiect vnto the Romane Empire then the hauocke that Dioclesian made here of the Christians and there Church and doth not he as sufficientlie shew himselfe to be a lawefull iudge that hangeth vp twenty true men a● hee that executeth as many theeues Neither doe wee reade that these Emperours and Kinges were reprooued for iniuriously punishing them ouer whome they had noe authoritie by right but because they punished them against law and right for matters that deserued noe punishment But leauing this let vs goe to Gregorie who had not learned to date his let●ers as the Popes doe now with Anno Pontificatus nostri in the yeare of our Popedome but regnante domino nostro Mauritio Tiberio piissimo Anno decimo quarto post Consulatum eiusdem domini nostri decimo tertio in the yeare of the raigne of our Lord Mauretius Tiberius the most godly Emperour the fourtenth and after the consulshippe of the same Lord of ours the thirtenth as his foure letters in the ecclesiasticall history of Beda are dated wherein I doe nore three thinges first that he doth not write the date of his owne creation or inauguration as soueraignes doe and secondly as subiectes doe that he writteth the date of the raigne of their Prince and thirdly that he called him Lord a worde so hautie and high that Augustus made an edict that noe man shoulde call him so noe nor woulde not suffer his Children nor Childrens Children to call him so Suetonius neither in earnest nor in sporte Moreouer with what duetifull humilitie are all his letters fraught that he directeth vnto the Emperour calling him in the plurall number after an vnwonted manner to declare his vnwonted lowlinesse and wonted subiection Domini my Lordes and yet because noe man shoulde thinke hee called him so rather of humilitie then of duetie it is apparant he vseth not that tearme to anye other But writing vnto Ethelbert the King of Kent he calleth him in Beda sonne a name of obedience and duetifulnesse but yet also of loue as hee also calleth Ch●lderbert the King of Fraunce ●plaplib 4. Indicto 12. eplam 96. et 97. But omitting many of his letters I will onely rehearse somewhat out of his threescore and one of the seconde booke wherein he finding greate fault with the Emperour for making an vniust Lawe as hee saith that noe Souldiour shoulde enter into Religion the which woulde haue made him to haue forgotten all humilitie if hee had beene as proudly spirited as some of his successors haue beene he thus beginneth his letters Omnipotenti Deo reus est qui serenissimis Dominis in omni quod agit loquitur purus non est Ego autem indignus pietatis vestrae famulus c. He is guiltie vnto God that is not pure vnto my renowned Lordes in all thinges that he doth and speaketh but I an vnworthie seruant of your godlinesse c. And anone after Fatemur Dominis meis and Dominorum pietas sanxit I doe confesse vnto my Lordes and the godlinesse of my Lordes hath decreed And againe Ego vero Dominis meis loquens quid sum nisi puluis verniis sed tamen quia contra authorem omnium Deum hanc intendere constitutionem sentio Dominis tacere non possum But I speaking vnto my Lordes what am I but dust and a worme but because I do perceiue that this constitution doth tende against God the creator of all I cannot holde my peace vnto my
displeasures of himselfe his friendes and vassalls At the same time the french king Philip le Beau had spoyled Edward the fi●st king of England iniuriously of the greatest parte of Guienne and also Guy the Eare of Fuaunders almost of his whole Earldome and was not deposed therefore The cause is apparant Sicily was held of the Church of Rome and so was neither Guienne nor Flaunders But although he escaped scot-free for these wronges and the long detayning in prison the Earle of Flaunders and two of his sonnes yet he was depriued of his kingdome by Pope Boniface the eight Philip the faire for imprisoning of a french Bishop that rayled at him and menaced him when he coulde not winne him to grant to goe with an Army into the holy land on the which message the Pope had sent him vnto the king as saith Platina But the french Chronicles report that the king caused him to be apprehended at home at his owne house for that he vnderstoode that he vsed often to speake very ill of him and to rayle outragiously on hm and deliuered him vnto his primate the Bishop of Tolouse to punish him with his aduise The kingdome of France was giuen vnto Albert the Emperour perhappes for a reward of his wickednesse in slaying of his soueraigne Adolph the Emperour for other punishment I doe not finde that Pope did put him vnto therefore See Mun●ter cos●●●mog lib. 3. in Al. 2. But yet I doe not doubt but the fault was more heinous then emprisoning of a Bishop for rayling against his prince and Lord. Yea and that God did so account it he made it manifest vnto the worlde by his seuere punishment of all the conspiratours For Albert himselfe was murdered by his owne Cosen germane the Archbishop of Ments founde deade sitting in his chaire The Bishop Stasburge was slaine by a pesant at F●●●●nge in Brisgow The Earle of Linengen died ma●de The Earle of Sweibrucken was drowned in a riuer The Earle of Ochsenstein had his deaths wound in the battell And the Earle H●●gerloch was slaine on the way by Otho the Duke of Danao But to proceede Lewes th 12 of France was excommunicated denounced a scismatike and his kingdome and goods exposer for a common spoyle to all Christians and the like penalty pronounced on all them that did or should take his part or ayde him Lewes the twelfih And therefore Iohn the king of Nauarre lost his kingdome for procuring of a generall counsell to be called and held without the consent of the Pope against the Pope that there his infestious foe Iul●us the second might be deposed an other more frendly placed in his roome And doth not this altogether smell of priuate reuenge and not of charity But perhaps you will say it was a foule part of him that would be called the most Christian king to sow sedition and scisme throughout all Christendome for his owne priuate quarrell and that this doing of his was so ill thought of by most of the pri● 〈…〉 of Christendome that they entred therefore into league against him and had almost set him besides his saddle In truth I can neyther prayse the practise nor the pollicie of the French who sought to represse the iniurious attemptes of the Pope against him rather by colour of lawe to the disturbance of all Christendome then by armes and inuading the Popes territories as Philippe the moderne king of Spayne wisely did in the like case and fondely thought it lesse enuyous Anno Domini 556. and more agreeable vnto his surname of the most Christian king which his ancest●rs had purchasesed by defending the Popes and Peters patrimony with armes to rayse vp a scisme then to force the Pope to frindship by materiall force But that the Pope compelled him to this outrage all writers doe confesse For first contrary to the league made at Cambray betweene him the Emperour the French king the king Spaine and the Duke of Ferara against the Venetians who had encroched vpon thē all he hauing gotten all that he claimed ●ee Iouius ●n vita Al●hons ●●uiciardi●●o not onely made peace with the Venetians without the consent of his confederates but also excōmunicated and with armes enuaded the fast friend of the French the Duke of Ferara because that he not hauing yet recouered all his right of them would not cease to molest the Venetians And also he left no stone vnturned to turne the French out of Milan an Genna the which he at the length brought to passe And was not he then the author of all his tragedie Moreouer this Popes brothers sonne Duke of Vrbine cruelly murdered of emulation Alidosius a Bishop a Cardinall See Iouius ●n vit Alphons Guic. Boleslaw and Legate of Bologna almost in the Popes sight and was put to no penance therefore But Boleslaw the hardie king of Poland was depriued by Pope Gregorie the seuenth of his kingdome and also the country of the honour to haue a king in the which dishonour it continued 200 yeares f●●●●ying with his owne hande in his fury Stanislaw the Bishop of Craccow for excommunicating him yea and interdicting the whole Citie of Craccow to make him the more odious because he openly kept another mans wife and for adultery a thing which as it should seeme by Cromerus as common in Poland in those daies as the cart way Yea those noble women that were honest were forced to forsake there owne howses See Cromerus hist Pola lib. 4. for feare of force and rauishment yea and it was common in Italy and passed vnpunished in meaner men then princes But yet in verie trueth the kinges fact was verie foule and made worse by the furie of his fellowes that chopped in peeces the slayne corpes and cast it to the crowes And yet perhaps Dauid did almost all ill in defiling of a noble mans bed while he was in his seruice in the fielde and afterward commaunding him to be murdered for his amendes but so dealt not Bolislawe with Stanislaw and if the qualities of the persons be not equall then the manner of the doing doth ouermatch the one being done without any prouocation and of aduised malice the other vppon a greate ignominy vnwonted with kinges offered him and vpon a sodaine while his blood was hotte which seauen yeares continuall absence from his countrie in forraine warres a little before had ouerheated And yet Dauid lost not his Kingdome therefore Neither doe we reade of any realme interdicted for murdering of their Kinges whereof we haue almost infinite examples or any man deposed for intruding into them by such wickednesse vnlesse perhappes the murdered Prince were the Popes vassall Soe that this zeale in seuere punishing of princes for misusing them of the clergy I feare me may be imputed rather to a partiall fauour towardes them of their owne coate and done for their owne securitie then for zeale of Iustice Like as our Sargeants at