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A64146 An answer to a book entituled An account of the Church Catholike where it was before the Reformation; and whether Rome were or be the Church Catholike. Wherein is proved, that the Catholike Church never was, nor can be distinct from that which is now called, the Church of Rome. By R.T. Esquire. R. T. 1654 (1654) Wing T42; ESTC R221978 68,689 169

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Is it fit that the Church of Rome whom you have forsaken should stoop to you Is she bound to follow you that have forsaken her who made you Judges of Gods Church that you should take upon you to charge the whole Church of Rome with errours both in faith and manners by what rule have you done this you pretend Sect. 37. to walke by a sure rule but I am sure you walke not according to the rule of Christ's Catholique Church For she walks according to the rule of Gods Word interpreted by universall and Apostolicall tradition which you contemne and laugh at but you by the rule of Scripture interpreted by your own private fancies and deceiptfull imaginations 82. Now the Doctor begins to quarrel with the Language of the Church of Rome How do they saith he pray with the people who pray in a tongue the people understand not Answ And why may not Preist and people joyne in heart to God in prayer though the language of the Churches prayers be not understood by all present S. Paul confesses 1. Cor. 14. 14. that a man may pray in spirit in an unknowne tongue though not with his understanding The Priest and people of the Jewes could joyne together in prayer and prayers to God before Christ though their Service were perform'd in the Hebrew Tongue a language no more then understood by the vulgar Jewes then the Latin is now by the vulgar Christians why then may not the Christian Preist and people joyne together in prayer though the church Service be perform'd in a language which some of the vulgar Christians that are present understand not The Hebrew Greek and Latin Tongues wherein only the church Service has been perform'd throughout the whole Christian world ever since the time of the Apostles are languages well knowne to the world all men may learne them They are not such unknowne languages as those were which S. Paul speaks of 1. Cor. 14. which were miraculously infus'd into many of the Primitive Christians the end whereof was the edification of the church and the conversion of Infidells Now those tongues were neither understood by the people nor alwaies by those that spake them as appeares 1. Cor. 12. and 1. Cor. 14. 13. These languages miraculously infus'd by God the Primitive Christians used in their publique meetings first to instruct the ignorant secondly to convert Infidells where their instructions and prayers were alwayes extemporary according as they were immediately assisted by Gods holy Spirit But the publique prayers of the church are not in such unknowne languages Secondly they are said in the same languages wherein the publique Service of the church was ever performed in all ages since the Apostles as appeares by the antient Hebrew Greek and Latin Missales which is an argument unanswerable that such languages are not against S. Pauls Doctrine 1. Cor. 14. nor any other place of Gods Word Thirdly the end of our present publique meetings in the church is not to instruct edifie or convert as those meetings were whereof S. Paul speakes in that chapter but to offer up to God the tribute of prayer and praises that is due unto him as also to draw downe Gods blessings both spirituall and temporall upon the people And to this end the people joyne with the Priest in their exteriour acts of devotion and Religion thereby professing their assent to the publique prayers and praises of the Church And can it be thought necessary for those ends that all the people present should expresly understand every word of the Churches Service which though it were in the vulgar language of every Nation would notwithstanding be impossible 83. Between the Eastern and Western Churches you say Sect. 40. there were many differences c. and yet for all these they grew up together comfortably and continued in the same body Answ When the differences between the Eastern and Western Churches were concerning such Doctrines as were not declar'd in any Generall Councell nor could appeare by the universall tradition or practise of the Church they were then only errours not heresies but when any of the Easterne Churches opposed the Western in such Doctrines as appear'd either in the practise of the Church or by universall tradition and consent of Nations or were declar'd and defin'd in a Generall Councell they then fell from errour into heresie and were thereby cut off from the Catholique Church Your 41. Sect. is answer'd Sect. 29. and Sect. 65. and Sect. 30. 84. In your 42. Sect. you say That the keyes were given to all the Apostles alike Answ This I confesse in some sense may be true but makes nothing for you That all the Apostles had the keyes of remitting and retaining sins is true I can grant also that they were all universall Bishops yet they had not all equally the keyes of externall government and Jurisdiction S. Iohn at Ephesus had not that power which S. Peter had at Antioch or afterwards at Rome For whatsoever S. Peter was he had a Jurisdiction over the rest of the Apostles as well as the whole Church besides which S. John never had Your 43. Sect. has been already fully answer'd Sect. 58. In your 44. Sect. you say out of S. Paul to Timothy 2. Timoth. 3 15. That the Scripture is able to make us wise unto salvation and that you are resolved by Gods grace to accept of nothing but what is deduced from thence or proved thereby according to the interpretation of the ancient Fathers and Councells That of S. Paul I confesse and withall very glad that you have made so good a resolution If you shall constantly persist therein and shall receive no interpretation of Scripture but from the ancient Fathers Councells and the tradition of the Church as Vincentius Lyrinensis advises you ch 1● you will soone become Roman Catholiques Your 45. and last Sect. containes nothing but what has been by you said before and by me sufficiently answer'd Sect. 18. and. Sect. 21. 29. c. I have done with your Answer and now crave leave to speake somewhat to you by way of exhortation in the Spirit of meeknesse You have hitherto been a guide to others let not a vaine feare or apprehension of any dishonour that may eclipse your former reputation by confessing your errours and that you have been a blind leader of the blind come between you and your eternall Salvation Let not the deceitfull lustre of vaine glory tempt you to p●eserve your credit in the world with the losse of Heaven You owe God your reputation as well as your life or whatsoever else is most deare unto you consider at how deare a rate Christ purchas'd the Redemption of your Soul destroy not then that soul for which Chrict died Let not pride prejudice or or malice cast a mist before the eyes of your understanding and you shall soone behold that light which will infallibly guide you to your last end God and the eternall friution of the Beatificall
I desire you to take S. Augustives observation along with you upon those words Vnde notandum est saith he nonsolùm ex●u●itionem sed invocationem dici aliquando quae non Dei sed hominum sunt Aug. in Gen. to 3. Whence we may observe that sometimes not only hearing but invocation also is spoken of as not belonging to God only but to men So likewise from the example of Moses Ex. 32. where the Angel of God appeared to him in a flaming bush S. Stephen himself interpreting it so Act. 7 30. Of Gedeon Iudg. 11. 6. Of Iosuah Ios 5. 15. who prostrate adored an Angel knowing him to be an Angel Of S. John Rev. 19. and Rev. 22. which places some of you have most ridiculously alledged against this Doctrine of Invocation of Saints and Angels For that blessed Apostle S. Iohn either knew him to be an Angel or not if he knew him not to be an Angel then he mistook the Angel for Christ as probably he might because the Angel spake in the person of Christ saying I am Alpha and Omega c. and then the Apostle might offer to adore him with divine worship which the Angel discovering himself to be but an Angel might justly reprove and this interpretation S. Augustine gives of it q. 61. in Gen. Or else S. John knew him to be but an Angel and if so then it cannot be reasonably suppos'd that the blessed Apostle could sin in worshipping the Angel because he having receiv'd the Holy Ghost as well as the rest of the Apostles and being so dear to our blessed Saviour insomuch that he is stiled beyond all the rest of the Apostles The beloved Disciple Jo. 16. 23. could not but know even as the Angel himself what worship was due to God and what to an Angel Besides if S. Iohn's adoration of the Angel had been reprov'd by the Angel as in it self simply unlawful can it be imagined that so great an Apostle so great a Prophet and Evangelist would a second time fall into the same error If then upon a mistake the Apostle adored the Angel for God those words of the Angel may be a prohibition or rebuke otherwise it was but a modest refusal of the Angel who seeing how dear S. Iohn was to Christ and what secret and sublime mysteries had been reveal'd unto him more then to any of the other Apostles plainly foresaw that the blessed Apostle should one day be exalted to an higher degree of glory in heaven and should be neerer to God then the Angel himself so that in brief besides the lawfulness of adoring Angels and consequently Saints there is nothing else from this place observeable but S. Iohn's humility in adoring the Angel and the Angels modest●y in refusing the adoration If then Abraham Lot Iacob Iosuah Gedeon and S. Iohn that great Apostle and beloved Disciple might lawfully adore and invocate Angels why may not we invocate the blessed Saints who together with the Angels see and praise God continually why may not we desire the assistance of their prayers to God for us 43. But perchance this Invocation of Saints is some new upstare Doctrine lately invented and brought in by the Church of Rome Answ As new as it is if either you Doctor or any Protestant in the world can shew but as much Antiquity for your Religion as I can for this Doctrine I will then shake hands with you and become a Protestant my self Let us then look back towards the Primitive times and examine the antient Doctrine and practise of the Church Theoderet who lived An. Christi 430. proves this Doctrine by the general practise of the Church in his time Qui in peregrinationem aliquam mittuntur saith he petunt instanter hos sanctos Martyres sieri viae comites duces itineris qui reditum nanciscuntur afferunt confessionem gratiae non ut Deos ipsos ad●untes sed ut homines divinos orantes intercessores pro ipsis fieri postulantes Serm. 8. de curand Graecor affectionib sive de Martyribus Those that undertake any journey earnestly desire them the holy Martyrs to accompany and guide them in their journey and those that return in safety offer up an acknowledgment of their favours making their addresses unto them not as Gods but praying unto them as Divine men and beseeching them to become intercessors for them Let us hear Cyril of Alexandria speaking in the Councel of Ephesus held An. 431. where himself was Pope Cel●stines Delegate Salve à nobis D●ipara Maria per quam preti●sa Cru● cel●bratur adoratur universo ●rbe ●ail O Mary Mother of God by whom the precious Cross is reverenc't and ador'd through ut the whole world Let us hear S. B●si● Epist 205. ad Iulian Apost who lived in the yeare of Christ 370. Sanctos Apostolos Prophetas Martyres i●●o●o ut apud Deum suppli●ent characteres imaginum ipsorum honoro veneror his traditis à sanctis Apostolis I invocate the holy ●●postles Prophets and Martyrs that they may pray to God for us I honor and reverence their Images these things being delivered unto us by the holy Apostles Here we find that almost 1300. years since this Doctrine of Invocation of Saints and honouring their Images was receiv'd by the Church as an Apostolical Tradition and Calvin himself Instit li. 3. c. 20. n. 22. speaking of the third Councel of Carthage whereat S Augustine was present acknowledges that at that time Invocation of Saints was practis'd by the Church E● tempestate saith he moris erat dicere sancta Maria aut sancte Petre or a pro nobis At that time it was a custome to say Saint Mary or Saint Peter pray for us S. Hierom Tom. 1. pa. 59. edit Paris and To. p. 122. edit Basiliens and S. Ambrose li. de viduis deduce and prove this Doctrine out of Scripture and certainly these holy and reverend Fathers could interpret Scripture as well as Iohn Calvin Neither is it imagineable that either these Fathers or Theodoret or S. Basil would maintain a Doctrine and that by Scripture which should be repugnant to plain words of Scripture Besides that Doctrine which has been confirm'd by the attestation of Divine Miracles must be true but this Doctrine of Invocation of Saints has been thus attested therefore it must be true The major is proved out of Scripture Mar. 6. 20. and cannot be denied or question'd without blasphemy and if you deny the minor you must give Theodoret S. Augustine the lye the former proving it in the forecited place li. 8. de Martyrib the later De civitat Dei li. 22. c. 8. where he recounts above a hundred Miracles of some whereof he was an eye-witness wrought by God upon the prayers at the Monument and Reliques of S. Stephen and that prayers were made to the Saints who also heard and understood the prayers of such as prayed unto them and the manner how they understand our prayers and