you Master Edwâ—rds would you have Magistrates and Kings and Princes to have more power over their subjects then over their bodies estates and lives would you have them be Lords over their consciences I pray you where must Christ reigne then Must he sit at the Magistrats footestoole and take what power the Magistrate will give him I meane spirituall power of gathering and making Churches and such Lawes as the Magistrate will give him leave to have to rule over them by Here you thrust Christ into a narrow corner for you would faine force him to give his glory to some other and his praise to some graven Image of your owne devising which he hath said he will not doe * But methinkes it were fitter for men of â—our coate to ground the Government of Christs Church upon 〈◊〉 written Word of God and not upon Statute Lawes nor Canon Lawes which you call Ecclesiasticall for it will be no disparagement to the Imperiall Crowne of this Realme for Christs Church to be governed by Christs owne Lawes The next thing is you say the Oath of Supremacie was appointed by Law for Ecclesiasticall persons to take Me thinkes that was a good consideration for Ecclesiasticall persons have beene in all ages ready to tyrannize over Kings and Emperours But now you aske the independant men as you call them a question but before you come to the question you lay downe an affirmation or a conclusion namely That these independant men give power to the Churches To which I answer If they should doe so they were very ignorant and very presumptuous for Christ hath given power to the Churches and all the Ministers that doe administer in the Churches must have the power by the Church But say you they give that power to the Churches which the Papists give unto the Pope I answer if they doe so they are blasphemers for the Papists acknowledge the Pope to be the head of the Church which title all men ought to give onely unto Christ But now to your question which is whether they will take the Oath of Supremacie or doe acknowledge in their prayers The King Defender of the Faith c. To which I answer This Ooth you say was ordained for Ecclesiasticall persons and I hope these Ecclesiasticall independant men if I may safely so call them will ever both acknowledge and maintaine that the King is supreme over all the Land therefore over the Church of the Land though it consist of the Clergie as it appeares by that Oath which you say was appointed for the Clergie But whether they doe acknowledge the King defender of the Faith c. which is the later part of your Question To this I answer It is out of all doubt that these men doe desire from their heart as well as all the Lords people that the King may defend the Faith of Christ Jesus and dayly make their prayers and supplications to God for him and that in conscience and obedience to God being commanded in his Word so to doe for they know it is a duty laid upon them for prayers and supplications must be made for Kings and all them that be in authoritie b but 〈◊〉 can make axceptable prayers but the Saints for the prayers of the wicked are abomination unto the Lord c But that all Kings have beene defenders of the Faith of Christ I deny for there is but one Faith * and those that do maintaine that true saith of our Lord Jesus Christ lawfully have that title given them and none other may lawfully have it but they You will happily say Queene Mary was not a Defender of the Faith But I say unto you if the Crowne of England give unto Kings and Queenes that title Queene Mary had as much right to the title as Queene Elizabeth c. Secondly you say they hold that the imposition of lawfull things doth make them unlawfull which you say is a strange paradoxe I answer the imposition of lawfull things doe not make them unlawfull if he that imposeth them have authoritie so to doe as for example the iâ—â—osition of an Oath is very lawfull but if it be imposed by him that hath not authoritie though it make not the Oath unlawfull simply in it selfe yet it makes the use of it unlawfull at that time both to him and to me But as for formes of prayer which you say they doe confesse to be for order and lawfull in themselves yet unlawfull being imposed I say not as you say they say for I know no forme of prayer lawfull in it selfe for any of the Lords people to tie themselves unto nor that ever was imposed upon any by Christ or his Apostles We reade in 1 Tim. 2. 1. 2. that all manner of prayers must be made unto God and amongst other supplications must be made for Kings but there was no forme of words given by which wee must pray for any and we are commanded to pray with the Spirit and to pray with understanding but we are commanded to avoid an evill manner of praying that we should not be like the Hipocrites which love to stand and pray in the Synogogues * nor that we should make vaine repititions as the Heathens which thinke to be heard for their much babling * and as also we are forbidden an evill manner of praying so wee are commanded by God what manner to use as it is plaine in Matth. 6. 9. The manner is that wee must in our prayers acknowledge God to be our Father And secondly That he is in heaven Thirdly we must give glory to his Name Fourthly we must pray for the coming of his Kingdome Fiftly we must pray that the Lords Will may be done both in earth and in heaven Sixthly wee must pray for all things necessary for this life which is there set forth under the name of dayly bread Seventhly wee must pray for the forgivenesse of our owne sinnes and we are also put in minde that as wee would have our owne sinnes forgiven so we should forgive others if they acknowledge their offences according to that in Luke 17 4 If thy brother trespasse against thee seven times a day and seven times a day end say it repenteth him c. Eightly we must pray against temptations to be delivered from the evills thereof And lastly we must conclude with thankesgiving acknowledging the Kingdome to be the Lords and all power and glory to be due unto him not onely for that present time but for ever Here you may see we are taught the manner how we ought to pray but we are tied to no forme of words yet we are to beleeve that this is a perfect Rule and that we may sufficiently ground all the petitions we neede to put up from this very rule As for Example As we desire to acknowledge God to be our Father so wee ought to desire that others would doe the like And whereas we ought
to pray for the Kingdome of God to come we are not to limit it to this that Christ may come to rule in us onely but that-he may rule as a King in the heart of all his chosen Neither ought wee alone to acknowledge praises but wee ought to desire that prayses to God may be acknowledged by others also and that they may grant the Kingdome and power and glory to be his not that he should be a King onely to rule in the hearts of men but also that he may rule and governe the actions of the bodies of men in his outward worship as we are commanded to glorifie God with our bodies and soules and the reason is because they are his 1 Cor. 6. 20. Now if our bodies and soules be Gods then it must needs be granted that it is in spirituall worship for in all civill things it hath beene acknowledged already that both bodies and lives are our soveraigne Lord the Kings in whose Land we dwell Now if there were any forme of prayer for men to bind themselves unto it would have beene shewed either in this Scripture or in some other which thing you have not yet proved That they were not tied to this forme of words is plaine by another Evangelist which doth not use the same words but addeth some and leaveth out other some and also the whole forme of thankesgiving is left out by Luke Luke 11. 2. 3. 4. Compared with Matth. 6. 9. and to seeke the helpe of any booke but the Bible to teach men to pray is to disable God which hath promised to give Beleevers his Spirit whereby they shall cry Abba Father c and that that Spirit should leade them into all truth and bring all things to their remembrance d Therefore a forme of prayer for men to tie themselves unto cannot be sufficient and pleasing to God though it were never imposed by any Thirdly you lay another slander upon us as though we should affirme that Christian Princes and Magistrates who are defenders of the Faith have no more to doe in and about the Church then Heathen Princes This is not true for we know that Christian Princes and Magistrates ought to be members of Christs Church and so being they may be Officers in the Church And if they be Defenders of the Faith they be such as defend the pure worship of God manifested in his Word as also the true professors thereof and that against all tyrannicall power that shall attempt to suppresse either it or them as the good Kings of Judah and Israel did by slaying the Servants and Prophets of Baal who had slaine the Lords people But Heathen Kings cannot be said to be members of the Church of Christ before they know Christ and then they become Christian Kings Therefore to vent upon all occasions such principles as you see wee hold and maintaine is not as you say dangerous and insufferable neither are the people But you say further that the people for a great part of them are heady and refractory and proud and bitter and scornfull and dispisers of authoritie and that they will not suffer publike prayers to be prayed but that by their gesture and threatning of the Ministers they have laboured to hinder the use of them And these people I gather from your owne words are the professors in England and especially in the city of London and it is very like to be so because they were there at the time of your service for neither the Separates nor Semiseparates as you call them use to be there at the time of your service for ought I know and these Professors you have also called Idle busibodies tatlers also as it is said 1 Tim. 5. 13. very wanton in their wits say you affecting novelties in Religion and liking of points that are not established nor commonly held and these you say are many of the professors * And in your second Reason against Toleration Pag. 24. you say that the mindes of multitudes of the Professors in England and especially in this citie are upon all occasions very apt to fall to any way in Doctrine or Discipline that is not commonly received by the Church c. But I tel you you ought not to blame any for withstanding any thing in Gods worship which is not grounded in his Word Neither if the whole body of the worship there tendred be the invention of man ought any of them to be blamed for opposing such a worship because it is according to their Protestation Yet I justifie none that will oppose disorderly as either by casting up of hats or threatning the Minister or any the like unseemely behaviour for I judge it better for them to depart in peace if they have not faith in the action performed But methinkes Mr. Edwards you have foulely missed it in that you have thus vilified your brethren to call them by the names of those mockers which Paul testified should come in the last time that should be heady and high minded and proud boasters and dispisers of authority for such as these have not the power of godlinesse and by this you make your Church a foule Church and defile shrewdly your owne nest and make it appeare to all men that you live in a Cage of uncleane birds therefore you are commanded from such to turne aside * if the feare of God be in your heart Moreover You say you feare they will not tolerate the Government established by the Ecclesiasticall and civill Lawes and you would faine father the cause of this your feare upon Separates and Independancie whereas you cannot be so ignorant but that you must know that the government established by Law may stand without the leave of Separates for they have neither power to give toleration nor to prohibit toleration for or against any thing But you say you would rather pray against toleration than prophesie of the wofull effeâ—ts of it I answer if you can make such a prayer in a time acceptable then sometimes such prayers will be accepted which are not grounded upon Gods Word But of the wofullest effects of toleration you have prophesied already in that you say they will withstand your Doctrine and your dues * and that will be a wofull effect indeede when you shall be driven to cry out Alas alas that great city Babylon for in one houre is so great wealth come to desolation Thus much for your Seventh Reason IN your Eight Reason you affirme That these Independant men where they have power as in New-England will not tolerate any Churches or Government but in their owne way In using the word these you carry the matter so darkely that I know not whom you meane for you have named none But you seeme to say they be men that have power in New England I answer Indeede it may happen to be so That there may be some men there that take upon them authority to binde mens consciences
you justifie them as men begotten to God and you justifie their standing there Thus doe you sow pillowes of flatteries under their elbowes But you neede not to feare any mans comming to steale your Disciples away by night as the Jewes gave out falsely of Christs naturall body for that was but a lie therefore let no man presume to lie by their example But you say therefore you ought to watch against us and ought not to sleepe least they should be stolne * away I answer so did the Jewes watch the naturall body of Christ and yet he by his power raised himselfe and also departed from them even so by the same power will he raise from the death of sinne many that are amongst you and will cause them to separate themselves from your false worshipping and from you that are false worshippers and he will tell them where he feedeth his sheepe and causeth them to lie downe at noone * Neither can you cleare your selfe by saying you â—iâ—ty them and love them and would not have such a sword as a tolerátion put into their hands as you are pleased to say to hurt them though some amongst them say you might perhaps use it better I pray you feare not this which you here call an error on the right hand but rather feare your Church if as you say your Liturgie and Ceremonies stand still in force which you say were the causes that bred the Separates * I tell you if the sa ne cause remaine you may justly feare it will take the same effect you have also as great cause to feare the prophanenesse and Atheisme which is seated in the hearts of most of your people but onely that you blesse your selfe in hope that all ignorant and scandalous persons shall be driven out But I pray you tell me whither doe you intend to drive them if you leave them anywhere in the Land they will be still of your Church except you will make you a new Church But if you should drive them out of the Land you would leave many places of the Land uninhabited for the generalitie of the people in most parts be ignorant and prophane and thus you may see your selfe in a great streight and therfore you have great cause to feare Further you say the Author would intimate that the honest soules are with them and would be for their way but as for those that are against their way and Toleration they are not such honest soules If this Author be the Protestation Protested you have wrested his words for he hath not said they are not such honest soules neither hath he entred into judgement against any But further you say you would have them know that the honest soules are not onely with them for in the Church of England say you there ever have beene and are honest Ministers and people that have rejected our way and any that fell to it nay the greatest Nonconformists and most able in that way you say have written the most against our way and laboured upon all occasions to preserve the people from falling to us For answer whereof I must tell you that the Ministers and people were never the honester for ' rejecting of that way which hath beene proved to be the way of God though they were the greatest Nonconformists in the world for it is not our way properly but the gift of the Father which he hath given us to walke in and surely it is no signe of honesty to commend the Saints in their infirmities or to condemne them in their workes of pietie I say it is no signe of an honest soule to speak evill of such a holy way I tell you I take Hugh Latimer to be an honest soule though he have declared both by word and writing against such as you and affirmed that a lay man fearing God is much more fit to understand the holy Scripture then a proud and arrogant Priest yea then the Bishop himselfe be hee never so great and glistering in all his pontificalls and such honest soules though they are not of the Clergie but of those whom you call the Layetie are the fittest men on the earth to make Churches and to chuse their owne Ministers as I said before though they be Trades-men and such as these have dependancie upon Christ alone whose way is properly the sincere way of God And as for any that have writ against this way or against those who walke uprightly in it it will not make much for their account for that part of their worke shall burne as well as yours though they may be saved and as for these Authors which here you bring which have beene so carefull as you say to keepe the people from falling into that way I have reade some of their bookes and found the most of them prophesie sad things against he Church of England except she repent THeir sixth Reason you say is that they are good men and men of great gifts and therefore they should be tolerated to have such Churches it is pitty they should leave the Land and wee loose their prayers Indeede Mr. Edwards this may be some other mans Reason on their behalfe but I hardly beleeve that they lived so farre from good neighbours that they must thus set forth their owne praise But for answer to this Reason in the first place you say the better men they be and the more able the worse to set up separated Churches To this I answer that I ever conceived by the Scripture that those that Christ ordained to plant his Churches were good men as it was said of Barnabas that he was a good man * and the very like was said of Stephen * and therefore me thinks you are shreudly mistaken But further you say they will the more indanger the peace of the Kingdome and make the Schismes greater I answer If it be good and able men that indanger the peace of the Kingdome you may doe well to perswade the Parliament to keepe still in your Church all the dumb and drunken Priests for they are bad enough and unable to doe good and yet of my knowledge they are very able to disturbe the peace and to breed strife and to bring Gods judgements upon the Land which is able to make a greater Schisme than you are a ware of Secondly you say for their prayers you have the benefit of them as well when they are absent as present and some of them have saâ— say you they prayed more for England when out of it than in it Indeede if they did so they did well for that was their duty but I suppose you for your particular had little benefit of those prayers and that because God hath hardened your heart even against them and all good men Thirdly For these their prayers you have rewarded them with an accusation namely that they left the Kingdome when it was in greatest danger and in most neede of helpe and provided for