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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A02198	An aunsvver to George Giffords pretended defence of read prayers and devised leitourgies with the vngodly cauils and vvicked sclanders comprised in the first part of his book entituled, A short treatise against the Donatists of England. By Iohn Greenwood Christs poore afflicted prisoner in the Fleete at London, for the trueth of the gospel.	Greenwood, John, d. 1593.; Johnson, Francis, 1562-1618.	1603 (1603)	STC 12340; ESTC S103420	74,892	78

trumperie be brought into the Church off God and there be read reverenced ād receaued as the sacred word of God thrust vpon mens consciences yea vpon God himself whether he wil or no Is not this presūptuously to vndertake to teach the spirit of God and to take away his office which as hath beene said instructeth al the children of God to pray evē with inward sighes and grones in expressable and giueth both wordes ād vtterāce yea and as the Apostle Ihon saieth we need no other teacher to these thinges then that annointing which we have receaved and dwelleth in vs. Is not this if they wil haue their written stuffe to be held and vsed as prayer to bind the holy Ghost to the froth and leaven of their lips as yt were to the holy word of God Is it not vtterly to quench and extinguish the spirit off God both in the ministerie and people whiles they tye both thē and God to their stinted numbred praiers Is this the vnitie and vniformitie that ought to be in al Churches and is amongst al Christes servantes to make thē agree in a stinking patcherie devised apocrypha leitorgie good for nothing but for cushsions and pillowes for the idle priestes and profane carnal Atheistes to rock them a sleepe and keep them in securitie wherby the conscience is no way either touched edified or bettered Truly I am ashamed to think much more to write of so grosse and filthie abhominacion so generally receaved even of al estates of these partes of the world who have by a popish custom and traditiō receaued yt one off and from an other without any warrant from the word For the Apostles I am sure these maister builders haue left no such president in or commādement vnto the churches neither giuen them any such power to bring in or set vp any such apocrypha Lyturgie in the church of God They alwaies vsed spiritual praiers according to their present wātes and occasions and so taught all churches to pray alwaies with al maner off praier ond supplication in the spirit and therby to make knowen their wantes and shew their requestes in al thinges vnto God their heauēly father Our Sauiour Christ also he taugt his disciples that God is a Spirit and wil be worshipped in spirit and truth He hath likewise set downe most excellent rules and a most absolute forme for al praiers in that part of scripture Mat. 6.9.10.11.12.13 commōly but falsly called the Lords praier wherin he hath most notably instructed directed ād restrained our ignorant and inordinate desires to those excellent heades In which whatsoeuer is needful for vs to desire or lawful for vs to pray is in some one or other of those brāches included euerie one off the being a base and foundatiō wherevpō and wherby to frame many millions of seueral peticions according to the seueral wātes and occasions at such several times as the saintes haue cause to pray They are al of thē so many euerrunning fountaines from which Godes seruātes by the holy Ghost deriue and draw cōtinually fresh ād new graces ād are al together such an abisme and vnmeasured ●ea of wisdome from which al Christes seruātes thorough the world haue alwaies fetched all their knowledg graces confort and assurance of ād in their praiers according to the capacitie of the vessel of their faith some more some lesse al some yet haue not al of thē together much lesse any one of thē is able in the litle dish of his shallow vnderstāding to comprise the vnmeasurable depth and greatnes of this Ocean of al wisdome ād grace Wherby yt is euidēt as also by the circumstāces and maner of deliuering the same by our Sauiour Christ by his Apostles Disciples and Churches spiritual vse of praier according to their present estate and wantes that these prescript wordes were not giuen or inioyned as a prescript praier so to be vsed by any even the wisest much lesse the simpler vnbroken vp vnexpounded etc. so much as a compendious summarie of al necessarie knowledg ād rules for al praier gathered by the Author of all wisdome into a brief for the direction and instruction of our weaknes and ignorance Of which endes ād vses whiles some are ignorāt or rather as their grosse idolatrie carnal dulnes and superstitious presumptiō sheweth are ignorant either what faithful praier or the spirit of God is whiles they both popishly abuse this Scripture as a principal collect in their publike leitourgie with their oftē and idle repetition therof fiue times in their morrow masse etc. and also through this abuse they grow further bold to mould a new calfe a new Leitourgie of their owne and set that vp also in the church of God as they count yt Yf yt were granted thē that this scripture and sundry psalmes and other scriptures they alledg out of the prophetts were cōmanded and enioyned to be read and vsed as and for the very praiers of the church and of the Saintes then which nothing can be more false or grosly fond to conceaue yet which way if this were granted them can they hereby proue yt lawful for them to bring in th●ir ow●e apocrypha deuises ād set them vp in the church as ād with the holy canonical word of God May their stinking filth be compared or placed with the heauēly liuely word of God without v●sufferable blasphemie may the froth of their lips and follie of their heartes be thrust vpon mens consciences yea euen vpon the Spirit of God himself in this maner In the church of God may nothing come or be heard but the canonical scriptures ād liuely graces of Godes Spirit according to the same But these their apocrypha Leitourgies can neither be said the word of God neither the liuely graces of Gods spirit according to the same word seing they were made and conceiued long before and are wholy thus vsed without warrant example or commandement in the word of God yea are contrary to the rules of ād for praier to the exercise and vse of Gods Spirit and directly set against al the lawes of the first Table by worshipping God in vaine afther their owne traditions preceptes ād devises and not according to his holy Wil and commandement And agayne in his Refutation of Mr. Giffard he briefly summeth vp in generall some especiall reasons against the common prayer book afore said besides the discu●sing of it in particular from point to point His reasons concerning it in generall he thus propoundeth Refutat pag. 49.50 1. In that they presume to giue and enioyne their prescript wordes in praier they take the office of the holie Ghost a waye quēch the spirit of the ministrie and of the whole Church stop and keepe out the graces of God thrust their owne idle devises vpon the whole Church yea vpon God himselfe vvhether he wil or no 2. In that by their Leitourgie they prescribe vvhat and how much to reade at Morne to their Mattens at

AN AVNSVVER TO GEORGE GIFFORDS PRETENDED DEFENCE OF READ PRAYERS AND DEVIsed Leitourgies with the vngodly cauils and vvicked sclanders comprised in the first part of his book entituled A SHORT TREATISE against the Donatists of England BY IOHN GREENWOOD CHRISTS POORE AFFLICTED prisoner in the Fleete at London for the trueth of the gospel 1590. To the Christian Reader grace and peace from God our Father and Iesus Christ our Lord. BEcause Prayer vnto God is a most Christian exercise and fruit of faith being rightly vsed having so many commaundements and promises concerning it in the Scripture by which we come most neare vnto God as in any other part of his worship speaking to him as it were mouth to mouth when we lift vp our hearts and powre forth our requests vnto the Lord it was thougt needfull seing these latter Treatises of Mr. Greenwoods towching this Argumēt are now published agayne ād his first concerning it cannot be had here therefore to note downe briefly a few things both cōcerning the doctrine ād right vse of praier ād in particular concerning read prayer by meanes whereof it is come to passe that true praier is so much vnknowē neglected ād profaned And this we pray thee Christian Reader to take in good part and to examine vp the word of God which is the onely rule of truth and light of our feet in the darknes of this World Prayer is the lifting vp off the heart vnto God to call vpon his name with faith by the work and help of his Spirit Psal. 25.1 Rom. 10 1 .14 Mat. 21.22 Rom. 8.26.27 Praier is eyther with words or without words With words being vttered in speach eyther publickly or privately eyther in mo or fewer words yet alway briefly according ●o the present and severall occasiōs Exod. 32.11.12.13 Ezra 9.6.15 2. ●am 7.18.29 and 15.31 Mat. 26.39 Ioh. 17. chap. Act. 1.24.25 and 4.24.30 Heb. 13.15 Without words being conceyved onely in the mynd and so presented before the Lord who knoweth the thoughts and secrets of the heart Exod. 14.15 ● Sam. 1.12.13 Esa. 38.14 Prayer is eyther Request or Thankesgiving Both these are eyther for our selves or for others Request for our selves is deprecatiō or supplication for others intercession 1. Tim. 2.1 Deprecation is for some evill to be kept or removed by the Lord frō vs. Mat. 6.13 and 8.24.25 Psal. 70. Gen. 32.9.12 2. Cor. 12.8 Iā ● 13 Supplication is for some good thing to be graunted or cōtinewed of God vnto vs. Mat. 6.9.12 Gen. 24.12 Exod. 33.12.13 Psal. 4.6 Luk. 11.13 and 17.5 Intercession is for others eyther for some good to be given or some evill to be taken from them Mat. 6.9.11.12 and 5.44 Exod. 32.11.12 13. Ephes. 6.18.19.20 Rom. 15.30.31.32 Iam. 5.14.18 1. Ioh. 5.16 Thankesgiving is the yeelding of praise and thāks vnto God for his mercy and benefits eyther given or promised M● 6●9 13 Gen. 24.27 Exo. 15.1.21 Psa. 69.29.36 ād 103.1.5 Ioh. 11.41 1. Tim. 1.17 Re. 7 1● Prayer is to be made alwayes and onely in the Mediation of Christ. Ioh. 14.13.14.1 Tim. 2.5 Not that this need alway to be mentioned but that we ought alway to come before God and present our selves and our prayers vnto him with faith in the Mediation of Christ ● by whom alone we and al our sacrifices are made acceptable vnto God For in him are all the promises of God yea and Amen 2. Cor. 1.20 Through him are all the graces ād mercyes of God conveyed vnto vs Ioh. 1.16 Ephes. 4.7 By his Mediatiō our prayers being presented before his Father all the weaknes want of faith love hope ād any other corruption wherewith our prayers as they proceed from vs be disteyned are covered and taken away Because he putteth the sweet odour of his Mediation vnto our prayers and so presenting them to his Father they are accepted of him Rev. 8.3.4 with Exod. 30.7.8 Psal. 141.2 Mar. 9.22.23.24 1. Pet. 2.5 For this cause therefore must prayer in faith alway respect Gods promise and Christs Mediation Mar. 11.24 Psal. 50.15 Rom. 8.34 Heb 7.25 and 9.24 And for the same cause must the person that prayeth first be accepted of God in Christ before their prayers and sacrifices can be approved Rev. 1.5.6 1. Pet. 2.5 Prov. 15.8 Hag. 2.13.14.15 Gen. 4.3.4.5 and 6.8 and 8.20.21 with Heb. 11.4.7 Wherevpon we are bound to be carefull first our selves to be in the true faith and Church of Christ vnder his Mediation that we may our selves be accepted of the Father in him and then in faith to offer our prayers both for matter and maner so as we have warrant by the word of God that he wil heare vs ād that Christ will be our Mediatour therein For which see the Scriptures a foresaid and Mat. 6.9 Ephes. 2.19 and 4.4.5.6 Act. 2.41.47 Exo. 30.9 Levi. 17.3.7 Deut. 12.5.8 Psal. 16.4 and 50.8.14.16 17.23 Esa. 1.12 etc. Mal. 1.14 1. Tim. 2.1.2.5.8 Iam. 1.5.8 Iohn 5. 13.14 Rev. 8.3.4 For our better direction and assurance herein hath Christ givē that forme of prayer which is commonly called the Lords prayer Mat. 6. 9.13 Luk. 14.1.2.3.4 Where he hath prescribed a direction for the framing of all our prayers both for matter and maner according to that rule For in it we are taught as towching the matter of all our prayers that they be for things first and chiefly concerning Gods glory and then concerning our good so as will stand with the glory of God Ioh. 12.27.28 And towching the maner of prayer that it be in faith hope and love with reverence briefly and humbly propounded that he in al may be glorifyed In faith I say both of Gods willingnes to heare ād help as being our Father in Christ ād of his ability therevnto as being in heaven able to do whatsoever he will Esa. 63.16 Psal. 115.3 In hope of his mercy and favour towards vs he being our Father and we his children in Christ. Luc. 11.9.13 In love both off God and one off another in Christ. Psa. 116.1 Mar. 11.25.26 Act. 4.24 With reverēce as coming before our heavenly Father who is full off glory and Majesty he in heaven we on earth etc. And therefore also ought our prayers briefly and hunbly to be propounded not seking after long or affected speach nor vsing vayne repetitions etc. Mat. 6.7.8.9 Genes 18.27 Exood 34.8.9 Ecclesiast 5.1 And note here that Christ hath propounded this direction not by way off exhortation or doctrine as in other cases he was woont but in forme off petitions and those very brieff Least otherwise we should have doubted that we might not with such confidence in few words have spoken directly vnto God himselff but that we must have vsed either mediatours for vs as the Papists or sighs onely without words as the Anabaptists or never ceasing from prayer as the Eutychians or at least some long circu●stāce off words ād great affectatiō of speach or the like as ignorance superstition and hypocrisy are ready

to lead vnto Finally in this forme off prayer by Christ we are taught that the end and scope off all our prayers ought to be the glory God in Christ. And that therefore we pray alway with submission off our selves and our requests vnto his will who being King and Lord ouer all knoweth and will performe what he seeth best for his glory and our good Mat. 6.13 And thus prayer conceyved or vttered in five words is better then ten thousand otherwise as the Apostle speaketh of prayer in another case 1. Cor. 14.19 Now the help which God hath promised ād giueth vnto vs in praier is his Spirit Which is as the fyer quickning and stirring vp our spirit to and in prayer given of God vnto vs for the helping off our infirmityes that we by it in faith should call vpon the Lord our Father in Christ Rom. 8.26.27 Gal. 4.6 with Exod. 30.7.8 And this fitly agreeth with the nature of God who as he is a Spirit in himselff so wil he off vs be worshipped in Spirit and truth Ioh. 4.24 Ephes. 6.18 Other helps as off praying vpō a book or of beads or the like read we not any appointed by God Many tymes in deed we read in the Scripture off the prayers off the faithfull made to the Lord but never off any one that read their prayers vpon a book or reckned them vpon beads etc. And no marvell seing the Lord did never eyther commaund to vse or promise to accept such service off him Therefore must it needs be that book prayers etc. are an invention off man and a vayne worship off GOD. Exod. 20.4.5.6 Esaie 29.13 Matthe 15.9 Neyther can this stand with the nature and dutyes off prayer before mentioned But in deed breedeth and nourisheth both ignorance and neglect off true prayer as by lamentable experience may be seen But into this poynt we will not now further enter seing it is sufficiētly handled in these Treatises which were purposely written concerning it Onely because Mr. Henry Barrow who was Mr. Greēwoods fellow prisoner and fellow Martyr hath also written of this point and namely cōcerning the book of cōmō prayer particularly in some books of his which now are scant to be gotten we thought it good likewise from thence to annex these few lynes following cōcerning it Mr. Barrow therefore in his discovery of the false Church speaking of the book of common prayer writeth thus Pag. 64.65.66.67 This book in that it standeth a publick prescript continewed Leiturgy as iff it were the best that ever was devised by mortall man yet in this place ād vse being brought into the Church yea or into any private house yt becometh a detestable idol standing for that yt is not in the Church of God and consciences of men namely for holy spirituall and faithfull prayer yt being nothing lesse but rather abhominable ād lothsome sacrifice in the sight of God even as a dead dogg Now vnder the law might neither any corrupt or any vnlawful sacrifice with any sene blemish be offred at the Altar nether any part of any beast though whiles yt liued never so sufficiēt being slayne before yt be brought vnto the Altar yt was abhomination vnto the Lord Euerie sacrifice must be brought quick ād new vnto the Altar ād there be slayne everie morning and euening how much more in this spiritual Temple of God where the offringes are spiritual and God hath made al his servātes Kings ād priestes to offer vp acceptable sacrifices vnto him through Iesus Christ who hath thervnto givē thē his holy spirit into their hearts to helpe their infirmities ād teach thē to crie Abba Father How much more hath he which ascended givē graces to those his servantes whome he vseth in such high seruices to the repairing of the Saintes the worke of the ministerie and the edificatiō of the church vnto whome God vseth thē as his mouth the Church againe on the other side vseth thē as their mouth vnto the Lord. Shal we think that God hath any time left these his servantes so singly furnished and destitute off his grace they cannot find words according to their necessityes and faith to expresse their wantes and desires but need thus to be taught line vnto line as children new weaned from the brestes what and whē to say how much to say and when to make an end to say this collect at the beginning that at the end that before the tother after this in the morning that at after noone etc. How like children or rather like masking fooles are these great clarkes dressed shew they not hereby that either they have no faith or els are such infantes as they haue more need to be fed thē to divide the portion vnto others Know they trow we what prayer or the spirit of God meaneth Prayer I take to be a confident demanding which faith maketh thorow the holy Ghost according to the wil of God for their present wātes estate etc. How now ca● any read prescript stinted Leitourgie which was pēned many yeares or daies before be said a powring forth of the heart vnto the Lord or those faithful requestes which are stirred vp in them by the holy Ghost accordingl● to their present wantes and estate of their heartes or Church vnlesse they can say that their heartes and Church stād in the same estate now and so still to their liues end shal cōtinue without either further increase or decrease change or alteratiō as they did thē yea that their childerēs childrē shal also so cōtinue to whome they leave and incommend this Leitourgie vnto the worldes end What a strāge estate is this that alwaies thus standeth at a stay The way of the righteous Solomon saith shineth as the light that shineth more and more vnto the perfect day as on the contrarie the way of the wicked is as the darknes they know not wherin they shall fall Our Sauiour Christ saith that if we gather not we scatter The Apostle Peter willeth the new borne babes to desire the sincere milke of the word that they may grow therby vntil they come to the measure of the age of the fulnes of Christ saith the Apostle Paul Now then if they and their church increase not in the measure of knowledg grace holines etc. yt is an infallible signe that they haue not the Spirit of God If they do increase why thē is not God served with his owne best giftes Is not the iudgmēt of the Prophet thē vpō thē wich saith cursed be the deceiuer with hath in his flok a male yet voweth ād sacrificeth vnto the Lord a corrupt thing Is this old rottē leitourgis their new sōgs they sing vnto te Lord with ād for his graces May such old writtē rottē stuffe be called prayer the odours of the Saintes burnt with that heavenly fire of the Altar the lively graces of the Spirit etc. may reading be said praying may such apocrypha

Eauen c. teachinge the church and ministrie to pray by nomber slint and proportiō it is not onely popish but most friuolous and vaine disgracing and not instructing the Church and ministerie 3. In that by this their Leitourgie they prescribe vnto the Church what Scriptures publiquelie to read and vvhen to reade them as these Chapters and Psalmes at their mattēs before noone those at afternoone c. On all the dayes that they have publique meetings and service through the yeere and so from yeere to yeere They therebie take from the Church the ●olie and free vse both of the Scriptures and spirit off God They therbie conceale and shut out of the Church a great part off Gods holie worde which they reade not As also abuse without order those Scriptures they enioyne to be read 4. In that they shread rend and dismember the scriptures from the holie Order and natural sense of their context to make them Epistles Gospels Lessons select Psalmes to their festivals and idol worship aboue-said They most heinouslie pervert and abuse the Scriptures to the high dishonor of God their owne feareful iudgment 5. In that they bring in ād cōmaunde the Apocrypha writings to be publiquelie read in the Church They both mainetaine and publiquelie teach the dangerous errors therin contayned to the poysoning and subverting of the faith of the church They thrust these devises of mē into the place of Gods worde causing the people therebie to reverence and esteeme thē as the holie Oracles of God of like aucthoritie dignitie and truth and to resorte vnto thē to builde their faith thervpō and therbie they bring in an other foundation into the Church besides the high iniurie donne vnto God therbie 6. Finallie in that by this their Leitourgie they bring in erect ād enioyne a nevv strāge kinde of administratiō as is aboue proued in the perticulars They make and erect a new Gospel and so must needes also erect vnto yt a new ministrie For the ministrie of Christ is ōly bounde vnto ād vvil onlie administer by Christes Testament vvherein they haue a most perfect Leitourgie for the vvhole administration of his Church Therfore this present Leitourgie and ministrie of Englād are by al these reasons in general and particular founde ād proved at once to be counterfeite vngodlie and Antichristian Hitherto Mr. Barrow ād much more in his books afore named as the reader there may fynd Now to conclude the end of publishing these things is to stirre vp al that feare God seriously to mynd what true prayer is and to be carefull to vse it aright according to the word off God which in al thinges faith without which it is imyossible to please God must alway respect and build vpō Rom. 10.17 and 14.23 Heb. 11.6 Iosh. 1.7.8 That so we may in this as in all other dutyes of godlynes learne to performe it so as whereby we may be cōforted of God and God may be glorifyed off vs in Iesus Christ. 1603. FINIS ¶ TO THE CHRISTIAN READER TOvvching the treatises follovving know Good Reader that Mr. GREENVVOODS first vvriting concerning read prayer c. vvas by the Prelates taken from him Wherevpon he desired Mr. GIFFORD vvho vvrote against him and had the copy of it to publish it also to the vvorld But he vvould not do it and so by their meanes it yet remayneth suppressed For vvhat cause thou mayest vvell conjecture vvith thy selfe These things Mr. GREENVVOOD himself signifyeth here in the Treatise ensuing Novv if by any meanes that first of his come into thy handes be thou entreated for the truths sake eyther thy selfe to publish it or to deliver it to such as vvill That so the vvhole matter and cariage of it may better appeare to all men for the ●urther manifestation of the truth in this behalf In the meane tyme these are published for thy benefit The Lord give thee so to vse them as may be for his prayse and thy comfort in Christ Remembring alvvay that he is Mediator not for any false vvorship vvhatsoever but for that onely vvhich is according to his vvord Which poynt vvell mynded as it ought vvould soone end the question here controverted and all other the like vvith all such as feare God Mynd it therefore and so farevvell in the Lord. The preface 1. Cor. 2. 11. What man knoweth the things of a man if not the Spirit of man which is in himself Euen so the things of GOD knoweth no man if not the Spirit of GOD. 12. Now we haue receiued not the Spirit of the world but the Spirit which is of God that we might knowe the thinges of GOD giuen vnto vs. 13. Which things we also speak not in the words taught of mans wisdome but in wordes taught of the Holy Ghost we compare spiritual thinges to spiritual thinges My first writing being about that spiritual exercise of praier and true inuocacion of Gods reuerend name whereby the distressed soule of man loaden with the burden of sinne compassed also about with so many deceitfull enimies contynual assaults of Satan rebellion of the flesh entisements of the world etc. seeketh daylie help of God the Father giuer of all good giftes hauing thorough IESVS CHRIST free accesse by the direction of his holy spirit for all occasions to vnburden yt self of whatsoeuer grief or occasion of thankes yt is moued with I ought still and by Gods assistance shall keepe me in the meeknes of the spirit not witstanding his vnchristian railinges sclanders and reproches against me and the truth I then shewed that no other prayer could vtter and ease the seuerall occasions and distresses of this conscience and that no other mans writing could speake for this soule vnto God but the heart and mouth of him that prayeth for himself or is chosen the mouth of many vttering to God his or ther mindes for their present wantes or occasions of thanckes giuing according to the will of God as neede and occasion vrgeth and the spirit giueth vtterance And I furder proved that onlie this prayer pleaseth God and is grounded of faith to this effect I brought many reasons out of Gods worde admiring the ignorance of this age wherin hauing had the gospell of Christ thus manie yeares in our owne language to search and try al things by whole congregations do make no other prayer to God then reading ouer certeine numbers of wordes vpon a booke from yeare to yeare moneth to moneth day to day c. the same matter and words as they were stinted euen out of that Port●is englished out of Antichrists masse-booke besides priuate reading of mens writings instead of praying And seing this counterfeit shew of worship and pretended prayers was made common marchandize in euery assemblie by this Antichristian priesthood and that al men euery where were compelled to bowe downe herevnto and to offer by such counterfeit sacrifices I perceaved the first principle of Religion which is to inuocate the name of

the true God through the meditation of Christ in spirit and truth with heart and voyce for our present wantes according to the wil of God was never yet sincearly taught by these time-seruing Priests But as an agreeable service to the humors of earthlie minded men which haue not the spirit of God this ware was thrust vpō al people they well knowing that such a ministerie and such a Church of wordlings could neuer haue stood without such a Samaritan worshipp and Egiptian calf and like earthlie deuised to counterfeyt a Religion al men inclyned to some And long have I heard this pretended worship inveyed against by many sometymes zealous for the errours and confused order therof Yet could I not heare anie to sett downe or teach which was the true prayer that only pleased God manie contriving divers formes of wordes as though they had knowen the heart of man counselled them to reade them day vnto day yeare vnto yeare at evening morning dinner Svpper c. by portion measure and stint as an offering to God what state soever the soule were in not teaching the difference betweene reading vpon a booke and prayer vnto God all this tyme. So that true and only prayer hath not beene taught al this tyme and those that knewe how to pray aright neglect it this reading being most easie as they thinke and they a●test therunto compelled in the publique assemblies thus to mocke with God after the manner of the papists mattins true zeale no where founde but in the persequted remnant These my first writings caryed abroade by such as desired true instruction and willing to make others partakers of such benefites as God imparted vnto them yt fell into Mr. GIFFORDS hand Who as yt seemeth being a marchaunt of such ware fynding the gayne of the priesthood to depend here vpon or as he saith the peace vniformitie of the Church made head vnto yt and that not with purpose as the fruite of his labour sheweth to edifie others but standing himself a minister to this Liturgie having made shipwrack of that conscience he sometimes was thought to haue with all bitternes of spirit and carnal wisdome having no more savour of grace in his writings then there is taste in the white of an egge fleeth vpō me with vncharitable raylings sclanders c And loadeth not only me but al the faithfull that walke by the rule of Gods worde with opprobrious titles of Donatists Brownists Anabaptists Heretiques Schismatiques seditious foolish frantick c. to bring not onely vs but the truth of God into contempt with our Sovereigne Prynce and all that feare God for he ceaseth not with laying al reproches he can devise vpō our persons as one of those Locusts Reu. 9. whose similituds are like vnto horses prepared to battell whose faces like men but theyr teeth as the teeth of Lyons But also perverteth blaspheameth and by al meanes de faceth the truth offered him Wel seyng the natural man perceaveth not the things of the spirit of God I speake not here of the giftes of the spirit but of the grace of God which sanctifieth the same many hauing Charismata that haue not Charin. And seyng I am alreadie thus rent Gods truth delivered by me troden vnder his feete I will followe the councell of Salomon who forewarneth me that he vvhich reproveth a skorner receaueth to himself shame and he that rebuketh the vvicked himself a blot And so tourne me from him leauing him to the consideration of his owne words where hee saieth in his Epistle to the reader He that seemeth most zealous in Religion and refrayneth not his tongue hath but bitternes in his heart in stead of heauenly zeale And though nothing els can be looked for at theyr handes that are Apostate from that light they have sometymes themselves published of which sorte the worlde was never more full yet for the good of Gods chosen scattered abroade and for the defence of Gods trueth I cannot holde my tongue And for the more playnenes I will answeare as to him though I minde not to haue anie more to do with him till God giue him repentance Wishing grace by the direction of Gods holy spirit to him that readeth to weigh both sides vprightly and to follow the truth to his owne saluation IO. GRENWOOD GEORGE GIFFORD To condemne and ouerthrow read prayer ye bring as the ground or foundation of all your matter this Sentence GOD is a Spirit and to be vvorshipped in Spirit Iohn 4. This Scripture in deede is cleare and strong to cut downe al Carnal worship as disgreeing from the nature of GOD. And if any mayntaine that the very bodily action of reading is the worship of God it may fitly be alleadged against them c. IOHN GREENWOODS ANSWER Wisdome is Iustified of her Children IT is agreed vpon and consented vnto on both sides that seeing God is a spirit and onely requireth such to worship him as worship him in spirit and truth all carnall worship is cut downe hereby of what sort soeuer as disagreeing from the nature of God And that all fantastical deuises of men namely whatsoeuer is not warranted in his worde is carnall worship a wearisomnes vnto him and lothsome in his sight So that no man ought to intermedle attempt or practize anie thing in shew of worship whereof they haue not sure grounde of his worde For euen our God is a consuming fire Now to put away all your bodily distinctions and earthly cauils I still affirme as I haue proued the stinting imposing mens writings vpon publique assemblies to haue them read ouer by number and stint or any other way as a worship of God in stead of true inuocation is a meere deuise of man and so carnall worship as also all other reading of mens writinges publiquely or priuatly in this abuse for praying to God Yet say you to apply this Scripture Iohn 4.22.23 in this manner against read prayer is friuolous where I appeale to all mens consciences for the weight therof It is friuolous you say except I can proue that a man cannot pray by the spirit of GOD with sighes and groanes vpon a booke or when prayer is vttered after a prescript forme c. At the first step you go about to alter the question All our prayers ought to be vttered after a prescript forme euen that perfect rule and forme our Sauiour gaue to his Disciples and al poste●ities But this is nothing to the matter For the other which is nothing but a begging of the question I alleaged certayne reasons to this effecet First that those sighes and groanes in reading instead of praying were not of fayth seeing in praying the sighes and groanes that proceede of faith minister matter to praye without a booke Secondly that you did but barely affirme the question in calling it prayer by the spirit when one doth read seing reading is not praying at al for as I then alleadged to inuocate the name of God in

spirit is by the worke of the spirit to bring fourth of our hearts praier to God which is than in truth when yt agreeth to Gods word But reading is another matter namely a receauing of instruccion into the heart from the booke Out of the first Mr. GIFFORD maketh men beleeue he hath fetched two heresies the one a perfection of faith the other that faith cannot be ioyned vnto or stand vvith anie outvvard helpes for the encrease therof Litle marueile he found so m●nie heresies in our whole writinges that could finde two or three in my first reason but that you may remember your self better though you had two yeares to consider I will bring the wordes before you againe if peradventure you may have grace to call backe yourself I said if the sighes and groanes in that kinde of praying were of faith yt would minister matter without a booke this sentence I may confirme by manie testimonies of scripture that no peruerted spirit can gainesay or resist the scripture teacheth vs euery where that in praying the spirit onlie helpeth our infirmities no other helpes mentioned or can be collected in the present action of prayer through the Scripture He hath sent into our hearts the spirit of his Sonne crying ABBA Father vve beleeue therfore vve speake Yet here is not anie shew of perfectiō of faith but of the contrary praying for our wantes But this may be gathered that God onely accepteth the fruits of his owne spirit in prayer and requireth no more of anie but that euerie one according to the proportion of faith pray vnto him as occasion in them requireth Nowe to conclude that because in praying we neede not a booke to speake for vs when the heart it self and booke of our Conscience speaketh with God that therefore fayth neuer needeth instruction but is perfect were sclanderous false and senselesse The cause then of these heresies proceed hereof that your selfe Mr. GIFFORD would needes frame two syllogismes and in the moodes of your malice cōstraine the proposition of the present action in praying to a general sentence of all times and actions though both our question here was of the verie action of praying and in the conclusion of that very poynt within six lynes after this you had these wordes Euen in the time of their begging at Gods hands so that these heresies must be Mr. Giffords and not myne seeing they are found to be coyned of his idle brayne and godles heart only to defame the trueth But say you the most part are ignorant weake short of memorie c. therefore need al helps to stir them vp to pray c. where by your own confession reading is not praying but a help to stir vp to pray And euen hereupon all our errours arise that you cannot discerne the difference of spirituall gifts with the distinct vse of them We doubt not but before prayer and all the dayes of our life we haue neede of helps of instruction to praye aright and for the fitnes of the mind and bodie often fasting reading meditating etc. are great helpes to go before to humble our selues in praying but in the present action of prayer when the heart is talking with God the eyes hands etc. with attention lift vp to heauē al the powers of our soules and bodies conuersant with God to take a booke and read cannot be called in this action a help but a confounding of the mind of Gods ordinances and a doing we know not what though before and after it be an excellent meanes ordeyned of God to instruct vs to pray and al other dueties As for the confirmation you talke of where I alleadged that a troubled minde is the penne of a readie writer therfore needeth not a booke to speake for yt in the action of praying By troubled minde i vnderstood such a minde as is presētly moued with the sight of some sinne or vrged by other occasion a broken spirit a broken and contrite heart ād not such a minde as in dispayre or doubt ys perplexed and that the heart which is moued in faith with present occasion to call vpon God is the penne of a readie writer that is hath matter ād wordes enough without a booc● to vtter yt owne wantes we may reade throughout the Psalmes My throte is dry saith David I am vvearie with crying c. But here againe instead of answere you tell me I runne vppon the rocke of an hereticall opiniō of perfection Wherin i wonder but that i perceaue your right eye is blinded you should be so carelesse what you say nay what after two yeares studie you put in prynt Doth it follow that because the heart moued with occasion through the worke of faith hath wordes and matter enough in praying without a booke to speake for yt that therfore faith is perfect let equal Iudges cōsider Here you say manie are so troubled perplexed in minde that they cannot pray till they haue some consolation by the direction of others which whē they cannot haue reading vpon a booke is a notable help I allowe al this and agree if you would make reading one thing and prayer an other divers exercises of the spirit etc. But in the verie action of praying to haue an other speake vnto vs never so good wordes of exhortation were but a confounding of the minde and actiō and an abuse of both those holie exercises Euen so by your owne comparison reading vpon a booke in the action of praying seing we cannot do both at once Yt is the Spirit of God in the verie action of prayer that helpeth our infirmities David in praying finding his soule heauie stirreth vp himself thus My soule whie art thou cast downe whie art thou disquieted within me waite on God For I will yet giue him thākes my presēt help and my God He had a troubled minde his mouth wanted no wordes to prouoke the Lorde to heare his complaint and his heart to waite vpon the Lorde and so through all the Psalmes you shall finde the conversing of the soule with God to be such as yt were a mockery to think reading vpon a booke could haue anie place in that action or that anie mans writing could lay out the present estate of the soule with the passions therof The Priest may say my booke whie art thou so euill prynted for whē they reade the heart cānot reasō and talke with God To the second poynt which was but your bare assuming of the question to say a man may pray by the spirit vpon a booke c. I alleadged that to worship God in spirit is when the inward faith of the heart bringeth fourth true invocation etc. this you graunt to be most true and that none other is accepted of GOD then that which proceedeth from the inward faith of our owne heart But you think that reading vpon a booke is to bring fourth of the heart true inuocatiō This cannot be if we consider the difference

betweene proseuche and anagnosis prayer and reading the one being a powring fourth of vowes petitions supplications the other a receaving into the soule of such things as we reade This therfore i leaue to all mens consciences to be considered whether the matter we reade can be said a powring fourt of the heart the whole vse of those divers actions through the whole Bible shew yt cannot Now where I said that you teach men insteade of powring fourth their hearts to help them selves with matter and wordes out of a booke you say I speake fondlie and foolishlie etc. Mine answeare now is yt is well I lyed not if I had said you compell men to reade vpon a booke in all your publique assemblies certaine wordes of your owne writings by number and stint from yeare to yeare and day to day the same instead of powring out their hearts before the Lorde for their present wāts I had not lyed Now let all men by that which hath bene said consider the grossnes of yt and so the follie remayneth to your self But to help this matter and to deliuer your self conningly in such strayte you sa● you wish all men to vse the help of the booke that they migt the better powre fourth their hearts vnto God being such as are not throughly able First you graunt here the prayers read vpon the booke is not the powring fourth of the heart but ought to be vsed only as an help wherbie you graunt the whole question and furder all your assemblies haue had no other invocation of Gods name this many yeares but a help to teach thē to powre fourth their hearts But whether mens writings may be read in the publique assemblies to this vse we shall after make manifest Here yt is graunted but an help and not the powring fourth of the heart And to whom is yt an help to such as are notable to pray Here eyther you must confesse your whole ministerie is vnable to pray or that they transgresse in this high worship of GOD for in an other place you graunt in all your assemblies this reading is vsed of mens writings for prayer thus you may behold your best worship to be nothingh but a help to teach you to pray Where I said that you teach men to fetch the cause of their sorrowing from the booke euen in their tyme of begging at GODS hand you say I speake fondly to call that the cause which is the manifestacion of the cause etc. You here forget your artes Is ther no more cau●es then one if yt be the instrumentall cause it is sufficient to prove that if your Mininisters had not their booke they had nothing to aske or els asking that which is in the booke they aske not that wich before was in their owne heartes so not comming heauie loaden they goe emptie away and leave the matter in the booke as they founde yt till the next day and then sing the same songe But true prayer is when the heart is first prepared and moued with the sight of their wants as the child that asketh breade So we should not pray of custome but aske the verie thing wherof our heart feeleth the want●et Your comparison againe betwixt the being stirred vp by a Sermon and stirred vp by reading sheweth that your self will not make the reading the powring fourth of the heart Ther is no question but the exercise of reading is chieflie for instructiō and encrease of knowledge and meditating is not the same nether can be said to be al the vse of reading though we denie reading to be praying but because we are forbidden contētion about wordes and I have offred you as much wrong in saying you denyed reading to be for meditation at all I will proceede to the more necessarie doctrines Also for the controversie of Canonicall and Apocryphall we shall speak in due place Thus say you you have answered nothing at all vnto this Commandement giuen by our saviour Christ to vse that prescript forme of prayer say Our Father c. but by shift cauill c. Here you thinke you haue put me to a plunge your self needed nothing doubt but that I allowed the Cōmaundement holie and good and to extend to al Christians as well as to the Apostles namely to vse that prescript forme of prayer as the perfect patterne and direction to all mens true prayers But you I trust will make difference betwixt a forme to all prayers and praying or prayer And here you vehemently vrge me to answeare you before I see you conclude any thing frō the place and so I should runne into follie to answeare a matter before I heare yt In your first entrance of this discourse you were rounde in your Syllogismes by two at once to wrast my wordes and can find none for yourself Yt seemes your conscience is witnes the matter would not hang togeather And me thinkes you had never more neede to haue shewed what you would drawe from this place Luke 11. seing I either mistooke you last time or els you make a simple collectiō which was this Christ said to his Disciples when you pray say Our Father c. and not when you meditate say Our Father Now what would you conclude of this except as I said that Christ would not haue them meditate that Scripture But this I perceaue was not your meaninge now I partlie thinke your Argument should be if the sworde were not brokē in the sheath thus Christ commaunded his Disciples when they prayde to say Our Father c. therfore to be tyed to reade ouer or say by roate certeine wordes is law full praying For the first that our Sauiour Christ tyed no man or commaunded none to say ouer those verie wordes when they prayde but to pray according to that forme after that maner as Matth. 6. I manifested in my first writing 1. that our Sauiour did not commaunde vs to vse those wordes 2 that Matth. 6. doth not keepe the same wordes nor that number of wordes which Luke 11. doth 3. that he did not say read these wordes when you pray or say these wordes by roate After all which reasōs slilye passed away in both your answeres you come with your bare affirmation that he commaunded those wordes to be said ouer by roate or reading yea a litle after you say it is false to say that he commaunded not the verie wordes to be said ouer when we pray And you furder conclude that because Christ commaunded his Disciples to say ouer those wordes therfore all mens writings in the forme of praier may be brought into the publique assemblies to be read for praier being agreable to the worde To which I āswere that seing no mās writings are without error yt is pernitious and blasphemous doctrine you collect First because you make mens writings of equal autority with the forme of praier which Christ hath prescribed 2 for that you gyue mē as much liberty and authority to frame and impose their

number yet it is expressed in some other verse that yt is so But now admit that you could proue that the psalmes were read insteade of or for invocatiō which you shall neuer be able to do it doth not followe that mēs writinges shoud be brought into the assemblies and read for praier The 6. of Nōbers I haue answerd before Frō the 92. Psalme you reason thus If the psalmes other formes of prayer in the Scrìpturés were read or said by rote the verie forme of wordes for praying The reading instead of or for praying Here you durst not set your assumption it was so false which should be thus But the Psalmes other formes of prayer were read for praying c. This I shewed you was verie vntrue they were neuer cōmaunded so to be vsed nor never so vsed My proof was this they are giuē by the holy Ghost for other vses as singing reading etc. ād not comaunded anie where so to be vsed so that you do but cauill not hauing one proof for all your shameles assertiōs Now where I demaunded what this made for your liturgies ād reading mēs writinges for praying except you would make your owne writinges of equall authoritie with the Scriptures You āswere That if I denie the cōsequence it was lawfull to use the Psalmes therfore mens writings thē I wil shut out all praiers euē the prayer of the Pastor See your carnall handling shuffling and cōfounding Gods ordinances Doth yt followe that because mēs writinges may not be brought into the publique assēblies or there read for praying therfore the prayers vttered by the liuely voice of the pastor should herebie be excluded this your shift was answered in the first Argumēt your cavils are stale you are againe convinced Touching the other matter of cōning phrases ād formes of praier by roate to say ouer certeine number of wordes yt is popish and a meere euasiō and bewrayeth your ignorāce in praier In this you haue granted me that he which prayeth not with a feeling of his presēt wāts of his soule but saith ouer certeine number of wordes of custome or affectatiō he is an hipocrite which is true proved Mat 6.7 Now by this examine your daylie monethlie annuall etc. saying ouer nay reading ouer certeine wordes euery tyme the same as you are stinted It is plaine the sacrifice of fooles Ecclesiastes 4.17 The two pointes wherin you protest so willinglie to agree with me were these First whether only such prayers as were made without the booke were accepted of Gods childrē Secondly whether the same spirit teacheth vs to pray that taught the holie men of God before tyme. You grant both these but that you would seeme to alter the first question wel then God 's owne spirit that taught thē to pray without a booke or stinting of wordes teacheth vs so to pray nowe and in the action of praying giueth the mouth to vtter what the heart desireth moved with the same spirit Still then after your long shifting to and fro I trust you will stand to your first wordes that you never read in the Scriptures anie cōmaundement for reading of prayers Secondlie to say ouer certeine numbers of words or phrases of the Scripture of custome or affectatiō without feeling of or asking for our present wantes is hipocresie Therfore I will conclude as I beganne myne Argument standing good that To do any thing in the worship of God werof we have no warrāt of Gods worde is synne But read prayers haue no warrant in Gods Word Ergo. etc. The third Argument We may not in the worship of God receaue anie tradition which bringeth our libertie into bondadge Read praier vpon commandement brought into the publique assemblies is a tradition that bringeth our libertie into bondage Therfore read prayer c. The Minor is thus proved that God hath left it in all mens freedome to pray as the present occasion requireth and the spirit giveth vtterance according to his will Againe no man hath power to commaunde anie thing in the worship of God which God hath not cōmaunded etc. Marke 7.7.8.9 Mat. 15. Gal. 5 1. etc. G. Gifford I say it is vngodlie and neere vnto blasphemie to affirme that prescript forme of prayer is a tradition bringing our libertie into bondage c. my reason was is that the Lord by Moses prescribed a forme of blessing c. Nom 6. the Prophetes in the Psalmes have prescribed manie formes of prayer Our Sauiour Christ prescribed a forme of praier c. I. Greenvvood HEre is a greate storme and yet nothing but wynde If you were in Cai●has his place you would either have rent your clothes for zeale or els condemne me before you vnderstand what I say Is yt simple dealing do you thinke to say I hold it a bondage breaking our libertie for the Lord by Moses 〈◊〉 Prophetes our Sauiou● Christ also to set downe a forme of praier or to prescribe a forme of praier Did you not see that the Minor Propositiō speaketh of the reading for praing and not of the forme of prayer Agayne of the commandement wher by men are compelled to reade instead of praying Did you not see that these wordes brought in to the publique assemblies did specifye the matter to be mens writtings to be read in the assemblies as a worship yea invocation of Gods name which is a grosse mockery Not that ther is any Commandement to reade ouer those formes of praier mentioned by you for praying and so the Cōmandement so to reade them for praying is an abuse of them and a Commandement of men and not of God etc. But that much more odious yt is to bring in mens writtings into the publique assemblies proved vnlawfull in the first argument and then to commit Idolatrie with them by reading them instead of praying and that to cōpell men by Commandement wher God had set no Commandement 〈◊〉 vse them was a bringing all men into bondage of popish traditions So that your common recitall of these places of Scripture is abuse of them and you do but palinodian canere I thincke if you get St. IHONS gospell about your necke as the Papists you wil thincke you haue religion ynough The more fearful is your Apostacy you proceede from euill to worse G. Gifford About the Commaunding a prescript forme of prayer to be vsed our Church doth agree with all godly Churches yea the reformed Churches haue and do practize the same here therfore I wish the reader to obserue that you Brovvnists do not only condemne the Church of England but all the reformed Churches whatsoeuer and can be no other but Donatistes I. Greenvvod I Trust your madnes will appeare to all men the poyson of Aspes is vnder your tongue he that cannot rule his tongue his Religion is in vayne Shall I in your hea●e be pressed with multitude of Churches thē heare what the Lorde saith Thou shalt not followe a multitude to do euill we have the worde amongst

Yet you would make mē belieue I reasoned thus that the Apostles did not nether our Sauiour himself nor anie that we reade of vse these wordes in prayer therfore they did not use yt Nay I said they did not vse those verie wordes in their prayers but vsed other wordes according to their particular wants as our Sauiour in the 17. of Iohn is said to do therfore he nether vsed nor cōmaunded others to say ouer those wordes And so I may well conclude that to impose certaine wordes to be read or said by ro●te for praying vpō the church espeaciallie mēs writings is an intollerable pride euen a setting of men in the place of God Also to vse them or bowe downe vnto them in that order is sinne and breach of Gods lawe The fourth Argument Because true prayer must be of faith vttered with heart liuely voi●● It is presumptious ignorance to bring a booke to speake for vs vnto God c. The fift Argument To worship the true God afther an other maner then he hath taught is Idolatrie But he Commaundeth vs to come vnto him heavie loaden vvith contrite heartes to cry unto him for our vvantes c. Therfore we may not stand reading a dead letter instead of powring fourth our petitions The Sjxt Argument We must striue in praier with continuance c. But we cannot striue in praier be importunate with continuance reading vpon a booke Therfore we must not reade when we should pray G. Gifford These 3. I ioyned togeather as hauing no weight you say I answeare by plaine contradiction without Scripture c. And afterwardes is not my bare deniall as good as your bare affirmation c. I. Greenvvood STay your selues and wonder they are blind and make blind Is ther anie doctrine more spirituall anie more inculcated by the Holy Ghost then this accesse vnto God in the mediation of 〈…〉 owne spirit to make our mindes knowne vnto God to offer vp the 〈…〉 owne spirit in vs and fetch encrease from him by this 〈…〉 true 〈◊〉 with the heart and voi●e This colioquie with the highe ●●iestie of God is it a m●rter of no weight to learne to discerne betweene 〈◊〉 exercises of the spirit and to exercise his graces aright according to 〈◊〉 Rightly is it ●aid the wisedome of God is foolishnes to the naturall man But Mr. GIFFORD wil say he graunteth the propositiōs true and weightie matters 〈◊〉 is the Assumptions that be so friuolous and as he saith a litle after ridiculous wel let them be weyed 1. That reading instead of praying is not a powringh fourt of the heart by liuely voyce 2. That it is a quenching of the spirit to reade an other mans wordes vpon a booke in the very action of powring fourth our heart as we pretend 3. That yt is not an vn●ordening of a contrite heart by faith but an ignorant action to reade for praying 4. That we cannot s●riue in prayer continue in prayer be importunate etc by reading vpon a ●oo●e These are the 〈◊〉 he t●incketh of so litle weight the bare deniall and contradiction wherof he holdeth of such credit that it must suffice for answeere seing he sa it he hath before proued the vse of reading See here he calleth yt the vse of reading he could not say that reading is praying neth●r that these twoo exercises of our Faith can be vsed both in one instant as one action I haue sheweed that pro●●che and an●gnosis praying and reading are divers actiōs both of the minde and body let the reader consider what weight then this matter is of to talk with the lyuing God But for the benefit of such as haue grace to sauour the things that are of God I will a litle illustrate these Assumptions at least some of them 1. That yt is a quenching of the spirit to reade an other mans wordes vpon a booke when I should powre fourth mine owne heart the word yt self must be considered the Apostle commaundeth saying 1. Thessalonians 5.19 extinguish ye not the spirit Now to suppresse and leaue vnvttered the passiōs of our owne heart by the worke of the spirit giuing vs cause of prayer and instead therof to reade an other mās writing I doubt not wil be founde and judged of all that haue spirituall eyes to see a quenching of that grace yea in that action the reading hindreth vs from pleading our cause with God according to the occasions we see in our owne hearts And by not teaching men to drawe out the graces of God in thē to offer vp the sweete incense of his owne spirit in prayer but an other course deuised by fleshly pollicye the people growe in such Atheisme that they learne not all the dayes of their life to lay open their owne soule before the Lord in prayer How much more then by imposing stinted wordes to be read in the whole assemblies insteade of the liuely graces making yt a sufficient ministerie to reade ouer such beggarlie ware do you abondon Gods spirituall giftes and make an assemblie of Atheists in most places of this land yea in the best assemblies you compell such ware to be read when and where the liuely voyces of Gods present graces should only he drawē fourth as an holie odour vnto the Lorde Yea I appeale to the consciēces of all that feare God if this haue not brought the land generally into Atheisme that not one amongst an hundred can call vpon God 2. That it is an ignorance to presume to come into so neere a conversing with God and to do one action for an other so offring the sacrifice of fooles let yt be sufficient proof that reading is not praying That yt is presumptuous to bring such lame sacrifices when you know to do better let yt be considered whether you would so vncircumspectly and carelesly approche to the presence of the Prince or any noble personage Then if he be our Lorde where is his honour his feare etc. when we will teach men and compell mē to do they knowe not what in his sight and to offer such lame sacrifice The Priestes themselues care not what offring they bring him Malach. 1. Thirdly the reading praier can be at no hand a striuing in praier for the worde agoniso which is read Rom. 15.30 signifieth to contēd in feruency both in minde and worde to preuaile with God as Iaakob wrestled with the Angell and said I will not let thee go except thou blesse me Genes 32.24.25.26 such s●rift you shall see through out the Psalmes in th● prayers of David and the Prophets alas howe this should be performed eyther in feruencie or contynuance let the wise consider 4. For importunacy and contynuāce in prayer wherof we haue many precepts let the worde be looked vpon which is proscart●reo to insist by perseverance etc. as we see our Souiour Christ make plaine vnto vs by a parable Luke 11.5 6.7.8 ●nd Luke 18.1.2.3.5.7 now shall not God auendge his elect which

crye night and day Experience we see in Moses who when he lifted vp his handes to heauen the Israelites so long preuayled Exod. 17. You can not make your read prayers serve in this vse with all your divises For how would you effect this except to make the Priest reade till he sweat againe with vaine repetitiō and the people that vse such stinted praiers to say thē oftē ouer as the Papists their fifteene Aue marias and fiue Pater nosters as a cure of al their grieves By this litle I have spokē yt may appeare though the Lorde knowes I am a mā of vncircumcised lippes neither able to vtter that God giveth me by faith to see in these high thinges neither yet cōprehending anie title of the exce●llcy of the yet I hope yt shal appeare to Gods children how odious your marchandize is in Gods eyes and howe you make the ordināces of God of true praier of none effect by your traditiōs he only approuing the liuely graces of his owne ministerie and such as haue giftes and are caled thervnto to be his mouth vnto the people ād the peoples mouth vnto him in the publique assēblies you inuent a newe worship and extinguish his which maketh mē fall into dissolutenes and bloudie tyrannie against his Sainctes And where I alleadged that Paul would pray with the spirit and vnderstanding and therfore not vp on a booke you answere that Paul had no such neede of a booke as other men haue But if you had looked vpō the text better you should see that the Apostle in his owne person teacheth what ought to be donne in all Churches and of all men And that he there taketh away the abuse of spirituall giftes 1 Corin. 14.15 and in the same Chapter sheweth that this and all other his doctrines are cōmaundements of God vers 37. nowe either God prescribeth two wayes to pray or els your reading for praying is a devise of mā But your self have confessed there is no commaundement to reade praier for praying Yet here you cauill with your stale shift that Paul taught others to singe Psalmes vpon a booke which is a meere euasion seing singing is not praying The same Apostle saith to all that are borne of God because we are sonnes God hath sent fourth into our heartes the spirit of his sonne which cryeth Abba Father So that althoug we haue not like measure of grace yet if we cannot pray we haue not the spirit of God Gal. 4.6 I alleadged as you say a reason here why praier read cannot be true praier In readi●g we fetch the matter from the booke which moueth the heart In true prayer we fetch the matter frō the heart which causeth the mouth to speake Your answere is that this is a most ridiculous vanitie for tell me say you this when we bring fourth in true praier matter from the heart which causeth the mouth to speake hath not the heart bene first moued with the worde of faith etc Let men here witnesse with me what cause I had to esteeme you as a shorner Againe how emptie you are of anie spiritual sauour And here you haue no answere to giue but aske me certaine questions First whether when we bring fourth in true prayer etc. the heart hath not beene first instructed To this I answere that againe you confesse the reading prayer vpon a booke is not praying but an instruction of the heart to praye If you would stand to this we should not neede haue so much labour and all the places of Scripture which you haue alleadged for to proue reading praying haue beene meerly wrested by you to deceaue the simple Wel say you but if the heart be first instructed before yt can vtter matter in prayer whie may not the heart againe be moued with hearing or reading the worde and so vtter prayer Yes I graunt and still you graunt me that reading is not praying but moueth to prayer Then all your assemblies that haue no prayer but reading praiers haue no prayer at all ād all that vse read praier for praying do not praye but mocke with God See if your Ordinarie will here be pleased with you Yet you would denie all this with the same breath by a shifte saying The heart is moued whē one heareth the prayer of the minister and presently sendeth fourth prayers togeather with him I trust you will not say that the heart of the hearer prayeth one thing and the Minister an other againe the prayer of the minister is the prayer of the people by Gods ordinance whiles they thinck one thinge and are mett to one end for auoyding confusion one speaketh yet al pray togeather one thing But the minister may as well preach and pray or reade anie chapter and praye as reade praiers and praye both in one action of the minde and voyce which were strange Your cauill then whether the heart may be moved and pray both at once is taken awaye seing you graunt reading and praying two seuerall excercises of the heart and voyce which cannot be performed at once with liuely voyce The conclusion is then that either ye must fetch the matter out of your booke whē you reade prayer and so do not pray for the particular wāts wher with the heart is moued and pressed before you come or els you pray not with liuely voyce at al when you read The Lorde then hauing taught vs to breake vp our owne hearts and powre fourth our owne petitions with heart and voyce gyve grace to all his people so to worship him We must pray as necessitie requireth But stinted prayers cannot be as necessity requireth therfore stinted prayer is vnlawfull To this I answered approuing the Proposition And in the Assumption I did distinguish of matters to be prayed for as that there be thinges necessarie to be praied for at all tymes and of all men of these a prescript forme may be vsed at all meetings of the Church there be matters not at all tymes needfull to be praied for for such there can be no prescript forme to be vsed contynually c. I Haue proved in the first Argument that no mens writings are to be brought into the publique assemblies for there the liuely graces of Gods owne spirit and Cononicall Scriptures only must be heard In the Seconde the vnlawfullnes of reading for praying In the third the vnlawfullnes to impose any thing by cōmaundemēt that God hath not cōmaunded And here we shall handle in few wordes the end of your stinted prayers Your distinction is far differing from the wisedome of the spirit for though many thinges be at all tymes needful to the publique assemblies yet stand not the assemblies either al at any tyme or anie at all tymes in the same neede and feeling of them or fitnes to receaue them so that except you can make all assemblies in the same want of such thinges as are alwaies needfull or any at al tymes in the same preparednes

to aske and vse thē that be needfull you cā make no stinted prayers for them Giue ●are then to the Scripture in this pointe 1. Corinth 2.11 For what man knoweth the thinges of a man if not the spirit of mā which is in himself c. Agayne who knoweth what shal be to morow Whiles you then thought to haue founde out more then the only wise gouernour of his house sawe needfull for his worship in his Church and of euerie soule you haue lifted vp your self into his seate and taken the office of his spirite vpon you who searcheth the heartes and knoweth the reynes and teacheth his people how and when to aske according to his will and eheir needs Rom. 8.26.27 also the spirit helpeth our infirmities for what we should pray as we ought we know not But the spirit it self maketh request for vs with sighes groanes which cānot be expressed Yet searching the heartes knoweth the meaning of the spirit because he maketh request for the saincts according to the wil of God And wher you say then that if we marck the prescript forme of prayers of all Churches we shall see this regard that nothing be left out which is necessarie etc. This bewrayeth your shallownes the wisedome of the flesh is foolishnes with God who hath searched the depth of Gods spirit or knowne the minde of man who cā prescribe the estate of al Churches and what euery moment is needfull to be praied for● Odious then is such drosse of a fleshly mans heart Your secōd provision that nothing be prayed for in your liturgy that falleth seldom out but they are limited to the time Your Church hath not this provision you compel men to pray against thunder and lightning at midd winter and in your most solemne feastes against sodeine death But the truth is till you amend your wayes God will accept no sacrifice of you much lesse requireth this at your handes to do more in his worship then he hath commaunded And where you say in the Church of England the preachers are not limyted touching the matter of their praiers it is not true you are all sworne to your portuis howsoeuer you may omitt some of yt for your Sermons and vnder pretext therof what part you will And why is ther not a forme for prayer prescribed to be vsed after and before your Sermons ys it because the text is not allwaies the same or that the speaker is not in like fitnes or the auditorie in the same preparednes I assure you these thinges might be sufficyent cause why you cannot use alwaies the same wordes and pray according to your necessities and even so standeth the case for al other affaires in the Church The disposition of the soule and the distresses therof continue not in one state one howre But let me tell you whie you haue no forme of praier for your preachings In manie of your parishes or as you would have them Churches Sermons are of those rare thinges wherof you saye ther cā be no proscript forme of prayer yea your liturgie approueth a ministerie and sufficyent administration without anie doctrine which sheweth yt came out of the diuells forge and not out of Christes Testament But seing you would take vpon you to set so manie perscript formes of prayer as ther is thinges necessarie for euerie assemblie to pray for wher Christ hath set none And if yt were a thing so necessarie to have prescript wordes at the administration of the Sacraments I asked you whether our sauiour Christ had not forgott himself as you thought that when he commaunded his ministers to go preach and baptise and shewed them the words of institution and the Elementes to be vsed with all things thervnto needfull he did not prescribe some forme of wordes for prayer in particular In the tabernacle euerie pinne was prescribed so that ether such formes of praier are not necessarie or Christes Testament hath some wants To this you answere that yt is not of necessitie ther should be a sett forme of prayer prescibed for the administration of the Sacraments The minister may conceive prayer etc. Hold you to this that it is not of necessity you will denie it againe the next Argument Well here you graunt yt is not of necessitie But you haue not answered me till you tell me whether you hold it necessarie or no if yl be at all times necessarie the Testament is not perfect Againe do you not hold yt of necessitie when you eycommunicate men and depose your ministery for not observing yt But you saye yt is for conueniencye If it be a part of Gods worship and all tymes conveniēt then is it necessarie and if yt be not necessarie put such conueniency in your cornerd Capp or surplus Nowe if yt be necessarie at all times you must proue yt is commaunded in Gods worde or els say that all thinges necessarie in Gods worship be not cōteyned in Gods worde which were-blasphemous and papisticall to affirme To this you graunt all things necessarie and convenient are conteyned and aske if I be ignorant that ther be manie thinges conteyned in the scriptures that are not expressed in particulars but be gathered from the generall rules No I am not ignorāt of this but if it may be gathered ether by expresse wordes or by general rule that ther should be prescript formes of praier for the administration of the Sacraments or anie other particular action of the Church then must yt be so of necessitie because God hath commaunded yt though not in particular yet in generall rules But you graunt yt is not of necessity therfore yt is not commaunded in particular nor conteyned in anie generall rule Yet you demaunde of me if one should obiect that ther were not cōmaundement in the Scriptures nor example for anie praiers to be made at all before preaching etc. I would say he should lye against God we have both For the Apostle sheweth yt was the chief part of their office to perdure in the worde ād prayer Act. 6.4 1. Cor. 14. and 1. Tim. 2.1 Acts. 2.42 besides all things are sāctified vnto vs by the word and praier And because they never vsed doctrine in Church but prayer wēt before their meetings is said to be vnto prayer Some things ther are I graunt that are not prescribed in particular and yet are commaunded by general doctrine as baptisme of Infants But whatsoeuer is commaunded ether in particular or necessarie collections from general rules are of necessitie to be obeyed as the commaundements of God and may not be altered but your particular formes of prescript wordes have no such warrant Nowe seing you would have no prescript wordes of prayer for the minister to vse before his preaching nor of necessitie for the Sacraments and haue none for excommunicatiō etc. I wondred wherof your Portuis is made and wherto yt should serue except for churchings and burialls and such popery wherby you leaue the

fourth discouered the ●haff and mist of Antichrists delusions euen to babes and sucklings publish the glorious light of his blessed Gospell that the people may see the counterfeit iuglinges of all such false Prophetts and come out from amongst them that you may be ashamed of your execrable wares and forsake your Romish Priesthoode and gyue glory to God that yet offereth grace Amen Christs vnvvorthie vvitnes for the truth of his Gospell IOHN GREENVVOOD FINIS A Fewe obseruations of Mr. Giffards last cavills about stinted read prayers and devised Leitourgies HAving hertofore written an answere to Mr. George Giffards pretended defence of stinted read praiers and devised Leitourgies and since receiued an emptie replie wherin he doth nothing lesse then yeild to any sound reason alledged but vngodlily cauilleth at and peruersly wresteth the sence of so much as he toucheth I seeing no cause of further strife his former convinced to intermedle againe with perticular handling of his chaffe and smoke his reasons in effect the same before āswered haue only thought it my dutie to illustrate vnto the Readers some few brief poincts abused by him that they may the better be able to iudge of the former writings where vnto with these few helpes following I refer the trial WHeras I alledged out of the 8. to the Rom. and out of the 4. to the Galath that in the verie time and action of our praying to God the spirit of God was the only help no other help mentioned or that can be collected in the Scriptures Mr. Giffard having granted that reading prayer is not praying doth now answere that howsoeuer the Scripture doth extol and magnifie outward helpes and meanes yet when they are compared with God which worketh all in all by them or when the Scripture will set forth the efficacie and worke to be his alone they are either not mentioned or els if they be mentioned so cast downe as if they were nothing God buyldeth his Church saith he by the ministerie of men yet Paul is said to plant Apollos to Water but God to gyve the encrease 1. Cor 3. and therfore to gather from those places Rom. 8. Gala 4. that there neede or may be no outward help or meanes in the verie action and instant of praying is far awrye In which answer it euidētly appeareth he is so bent to turne away all truth and raise new strife as ther can be no expectation of agreement There is no sequence neither doth the scripture alledged prove his owne reasō so that nothing hāgs togeather No mā doubteth but that sometimes and in some places of scripture the outward meanes of begetting and encreasing faith is only recited ād sometimes the secret work of Gods spirit only sometimes both when yet they are not diuided but goe together ād all of God both inward worke and outward meanes though in way of comparison I never so read but rather the one repeated for both For shal I say that when the work of God and preaching therof is shewed to be the power of God vnto saluation that the inward worke of the Spirit is therfore not mentioned because the other is of God then both inward and outward meanes being of God ād God 's owne worke though the one by instrument that there is silencing of the one in way of cōparison is not true But all this is nothing to our matter He should plainly haue affirmed that frō these places Rō 8. ād Gal. 4. it cānot be proued that in the very instāt tyme ād actiō of owre praying to God the spirit only instructeth without outward helpes of instruction and he should haue seene I could proue as thē I did the contrarie vnto him Rō 8.26 The spirit doth together supplye or help our infirmities for we knowe not what to pray as we ougt but the spirit yt self maketh request for vs with sighes ād grones vnvtterable In the actiō of praying the spirit is here set downe in this place to be the meanes and help of instructiō teaching vs to aske aright no other meanes or helpes of instruction in that instant time and action of praying mentioned in this or any other place of scripture Therfore in the time of our praying and laying our hearts opē to God the Spirit only doth instruct and openeth our mouth In this place let the word synan●ilambanetai be wel considered Againe Gal. 4.6 it is said because yee are sonnes God sent the Spirit of his Sonne into your hearts crying Abba Father The Argumēt here is the same thet before this word crying sheweth the worcke of his Spirit or rather office in our continuall occasions of prayer to direct vs to vnburden and vnfold the heart so that in the instāt action we see no other And where I shewed him that reading in the actiō of praying could not be caled an help of instructiō at that time whē we were powring forth our hearts vnto God the eyes and hāds lyft vp to heaue our meditation fixed vpō our knowē occasions and heart and mouth vnfolding thē my reason this That the minde and bodie could not be intent vpō two diuerse distinct and seueral exercises and duties of minde and bodie at one time and instāt he inverteth my words and stealeth thē as a new shift to help him self as he supposeth returning thē thus in way of question demanding whether fasting lyfting vp our eyes and hāds to heauē prostrating the bodie and kneeling be praier yt self or outward meanes and helpes to make the prayer more fervēt Euery simple mā wil laugh at him saith he if he make thē prayer ytself ād if they be helpes thē I haue brought the former proofes not frō an idle but from an vnsound brayne Leaue scorning and reproch and consider what helpes we did al this time intreate of was yt not instructiō of the minde by some other spiritual exercise then prayer in praying wil he call fasting kneeling etc. instructions of the minde what to pray thē he must needs plead for his Image and al poperie if these bodily actions and gestures be instructiō of the minde which are but preparations to make the body serviceable ād apt to ād in this dutie Further how learnedly he disputeth to make reading one of these bodily gestures or bodily actions only let it be cōsidered of And as he cōfoundeth these bodily exercises and spirituall exercises so he sheweth himself ignorant and vnable to discerne spiritual gyftes and exercises one from an other with the distinct vse of them demanding whither the voyce of an other tha● prayeth be an outward help or prayer yt self an outward meanes to make our prayer more fervent He thinketh I will be laught at if I say it be prayer yt self Sure if in anie assemblie or where two or three are in Christs name gathered together epito●uto and homothymadon vnto the same thing and with one minde for avoyding confusion they do vse but one voice and that by Gods order and

Liturgies as Christ had to set downe a forme of praier he being Lord of the house The wickednesse of which collections you shall neuer be able to answeare And because you here vrge me therunto I will make answeare to your two places of Scripture wherwith by false interpretation you deceaue the simple which taken from you your matter is nothingh but cauilling The places are these Luce 11. Nom. 6. and because the one explanes the other and your collections the same from both I will beginne with nombers 6.32.33.34 etc. Thus shall you bless the Children of Israell saying the Lorde bless thee keep thee c. Here you say they were commaunded to vse the verie wordes prescribed in all their blessings This I say is not true for the Hebrew worde is Coh Tebaracu thus shall you blesse wher the worde Coh is an aduerb of similitude as we say after this maner which cannot be to say the same but according to the same instructions This worde Coh is ysed throughout the Bible in this maner in all the Prophets whē they say thus saith the Lorde where the summe of their prophesies are onlie recorded to vs by the holy Ghost ād not all the wordes Againe this blessing is vsed in the Psalmes and Chronicles in prayer for the people in manie other wordes Ely blessed Hanna in other wordes etc. And where by L●ce 11.2 yt is recorded that our Sauiour Christ commaunded his Disciples when you pray say our Father c. yt is playne by the doctrines following 4.5.6.8.11 verses that Christ tyed no man to the verie wordes saying ouer for he teacheth them to aske their particular wants as a childe asketh breade or an egg of his Father also to importune the Lorde for our particular wants But to make this place more playne the same holy Ghost in the 6. of Mathew 9. verse saith when you pray say thus Our Father c. where the greeke word houtos hath the same signification that the Hebrew worde Coh had which is after this maner and cannot be referred to the verie wordes saying ouer wherupon Mr. Calvin vpon those wordes saith Noluit filius dei prescribere quibus verbis vtendum sit The Sonne of God would not prescribe what wordes we must vse Now consider how falslie Mr. Gifford hath interpreted these Scriptures to say the Priests wer commaunded to vse the verie wordes and that Christ commaunded to vse the verie wordes As for his collections that therfore mens writings may be imposed vpō publique assemblies by stint and number to be prayde vt is intollerable error and bringeth in all popery Here I must call all men that reade this fruictlesse discourse to be witnes of Mr. Giffords abuse of his tongue to the defacing of Gods truth In his Epistle he proclaymed that I called all men Idolaters which you shall perceaue to be his owne wordes and to that end I will breifly repeat yt In my first writing I affirmed the reading imposed Liturgies by stint ād limitation instead of true invocation as also all reading mēs writings for praying to be idolatrye In his answeare he said he could not see by what collour yt could be called Idolatrie or maintayned out of Gods worde so to be but yt seemes the penners of these things take euery sinne against the first table of the lawe to be Idolatry if they do so saith he and with all do hold that no Idolater shal be saued then doubtlesse all are lost c. Tothis ignorāt excursorie I answered that all false and devised worship by mans inuention was Idolatrye as the first and second commandemens did testifie And so admit all the breaches of the first table were not idolatrye yet reading of mens writinges instead of praying must needes be idolatry seing yt is a transgression of the second Commandement Furder though I needed not have followed his emptye head euen a cloude without water yet I proceeded to proue that no idolater could be saved but by repentance for their knowne sinne and craving pardon with David for their hidden sinnes and secreat faults Moreouer said I do you thinke anie man is free from all inward and outward idolatrye seing we cannot keep one Commaundement and in some things we sinne all In which wordes i plainelie reproued his grossnes that concluded all men idolaters which committed any idolatrye and that no idolater could be sauld and distinguished betweene the sinne of ignorance weaknes and inperfection etc. in Gods children and open professed obstinate idolatrie Yet this godles man would lay to my chardg that i should call all mē idolaters wheras i neuer vsed such a worde in all my writings But only answered his folly in this running out from the question they were his owne wordes that brought this vpon his owne heade by concluding that if euery sinne against the first table were idolatrie and no idolater could be saued then all are lost let the grosnes then be his and not mine And i leaue it to the consideration of all men whether i may not say that they which trāsgresse the first or second Commaundements do commit Idolatrie without absurdity But saith he though yt be so yet the Scripture calleth not the godly murtherers Idolaters etc. for the reliques of sinne remayning I answere that therfore your former absurd cauilling where you said if we hold it Idolatrie etc. ys by your owne mouth fully answered But to auoyde this foyle he hath an other euasion I thought saith he we had reasoned about such grosse idolatrie as a Church is to be condēned and forsaken which is defiled therwith Here againe you misreport me I neuer reasoned to that end in this whole discourse but only laboured to shew all men this error of reading mēs writinges instead of praying that they might learne how to conuerse with God and their owne Conscience in prayer And what mendes wil you make for this sclandering and defacing of the truth to all the world all that I desire is your repentance and amendement which God graunt vnto you if you you be his It followeth in your booke thus But seeing you confess tha● all men be Idolaters that is touching the remanents of sinne it must needs follow there is no Church free from spots c. This worde idolaters must still be yours and then i willinglie graunt that no man liuing is free from idolatrie concerning the reliques of sinne Also that no Church vpon earth can be without spot vpon earth So that now by your owne cōfessiō I pleade not for perfection in this life though the more we want the more we ought to endeuour With what face then could you publish me an Anabaptist in your Epistle and out of one mouth giue contrarie sentence Doth your ordinary teach you to cast out such bitter waters of vntruthes was yt possible I should hold al men Idolatres and some men without committing of sinne after regeneration especially to mainetaine both such heresies as you

vsed with vs for that which is not Gods vndoubted worde vnto vs And in your last writing which should have beene your answere you said God speaketh to vs only by the Canonicall Scriptures Now seing you would make your liturgies ād deuised formes of prayer helpes and instructiō and yet cannot make them Canonical or Gods vndoubted truth they must not be brought into the publique assemblie much lesse imposed by lawe vpon the Consciences of all men And here remember all your Liturgies are cast out of the doore besides that you have not made in both writinges one direct answere to this most firme Proposition which I will still leaue vpon you thus Only the Canonicall Scriptures liuely voice of Gods owne graces are to be brought into the publique assemblies for doctrine prayer But mēs writings are neyther Canonicall Scripture nor the liuely voice of Gods graces in such as he hath appointed to speake in the publique assemblies Therfore no mans writings may be brought into nor imposed vpon the publique assemblies Thus migt I make an ende with this vayne mā considering the whole matter is proved against him all that followe being but repetitions of these former cauills but that I must cleare my self of his vnconscionable sclanders The second Argument We must do nothing in the worship of God without warrant of his worde ●ut read praiers haue no warrant in his worde Therfore read prayers are not to be vsed in the worship of God G. Gifford To this I answere at the first that it is a greate audacitie to affirme that there is no vvarrant in the vvorde for read prayers vvhen ther be sundry testimonies to vvarrant the same vnless you vvill make difference betvveene that which a man readeth vpon a booke and that which he hath learned out of the booke Furder I said I do not remember that euer I haue read that God commaunded in the Scriptures the prayer shal be read vpon a Booke c. I. Greenvvood SEing you haue indeed not answered one reason or proof I alleadged in my last writing but with much euill conscience as the handling sheweth perverred them I will leaue them to be iudged of them that shall see my writing And here seing you would not prynt yt I will answere your cheif obie●●●o●● First then you graunt that if I put difference betweene reading vpō the booke and that which he hath learned out of the booke mine Argument to sounde For by your owne confession God hath not giuen anie Commandement to read prayer and so yt hath no warrāt Whervpō I gayne thus much First tha● they which impose read prayer vpon the Church do that wherof they haue no warrant in the worde and that in the high seruice of God Then that they which reade vpon a booke for praying do that wherof they haue no warrant in Gods woorde whervpon all your Ministers must leaue reading their s●nted prayers vpon the booke or els stand vnder Gods wrath and all that so pray with them which wil be a fearefull reckoning if they repent not their sinne shewed them And although our question he cheiflie concerning the reading of mens writings instead of praying yet I am content the other abuse of the Scriptures be included also though I make not both in the same height of sinne as shall appeare in my seuerall reasons As an vnconstant man then you in the latter ende of the answere to this Argument would cal backe agayne that which you here haue granted Namely that there is no Commandement to reade prayer vpon a booke for praiyng Of the contrary thus you reason The people of God did reade the Psalmes vpon a booke whe● they did singe therfore men may reade vpon a booke vvhen they pray I deny your Argument besides that all men may see your vnstablenes in denying and affirming with one breath you now go about to make reading of prayer a Commandement thus you prove yt Singing say you is a part of prayer Singing may be read vpon a Booke therfore praier may be read vpon a booke Admit that Singing were a part of prayer yet doth it not followe that all prayer may be read vpon a booke But you speake like an ignorant man to say that Singing is praier seing they are twoo diuers actiōs and exercises of our faith● the one neuer read for the other nor said to be a part of the other through the Scriptures but are playnely distinguished 1. Cor. 14.15 what is it then I will pray with the spirit bu● y will pray with vnderstanding I wil sing with the spirit etc. agayne if you be sad pray and if you be merye sing Psalmes pro●●●xon ai and psalo I will pray and I wil sing are diuers exercises of the faith if a man should say reading a chapter of the scripture and prophecying were all one were he not wide Euē so euery part of Gods service is not prayer I graunt we are euery where commaunded to singe Psalmes vnto God And alleadged that place of the Apostle to the Ephes. 5.19 Speaking to your selves in Psalmes and Himnes and Spirituall songes etc. ād that of the Colo. onlie to this end that in Psalmes singing we do not alwaies speake vnto God as in those Psalmes which are only instructions and prophesies in the 1. and 2. Psalmes you have not one worde spoken vnto God Againe as all reading of the prayers in the Scriptures is not praying or speaking vnto God so the reading or singing of Psalmes I tooke to haue beene a speaking to our selves a stirring vp of Gods graces in vs etc. But I do not now nor did not then hold yt so in al Psalmes singing And where you say I purposely left out the latter part in both places which was this sing vnto God with a grace in your heartes the Lorde knowes I had no purpose to injurie the Scripture nor maintayne an vntruth But thought we might do those thinges with a grace to God in our heartes which were not properly ād directly a conversing by thought ād worde with him alone but one thing might haue kept you frō crying out heresie in that I added this that I would not stād vpō that reason but desired to knowe yt furder But how vniustly could you nūber this for an heresie maynteyned of vs al in your Epistle that we should denie that Psalmes should be songe vnto God The Lorde keepe me frō such errour And a wofull Phisition you are if I had bene in such errour For the 102. Psalme I never denied but that yt was a most excellent Psalme penned by Daniell or some other PROPHET ād gyuē to the whole Church to be sōge or read as other Psalmes in the forme of praier But you must prove that the Church did vse yt as you say to reade yt ouer for praying or were cōmaūded so to do This is proof inoug they did not because yt is a Psalme Now thoug the Church speake manie tymes in the singular

vs we shall by that worde be either iustified or condemned Then either proue your matter from te Schriptures or els giue eare to the Scripture If those Churches you speake of bring mens writinges in to the publique assemblies et in force them to be read for praying I would see their warrāt we belieue not because men say so or do so but because God speaketh And where he speaketh al men must besilent You may accuse ●ther Countries as you wil I knowe not their estate but your drudgery insteade of true worship is lothsome the Priest with his masse-booke and begger with his clapdisch canuize ouer the Pater noster for their bellie which is your com-mon worship with other trinckets We shall speake of a Liturgie in due place Here you breath out your accustomed lyes sclanders and 〈◊〉 First you terme vs Brownists and Donatists wheras I neuer conuersed wit the men nor their writings I detest Donatus his heresies And if they had beene instruments to teach vs anie truth we were not therfore to be named with their name we were baptized into Christs Browne is a member of your Church your brother and al Brownists do frequent your assemblies And here you wish the reader to consider that I condemne all reformed Churches do I condemne all Churched for reprouing a sinne by Gods wordes May not the true Church●● if they were such err Did I affirme at anie tyme tha● they were no true Church that vsed read prayers remember your self you knowe who is the Father of such vntruthes But because your Conscience bare you witnesse you had wrongfully chardged me and for me all true Christians you bring yt in by necessary consequence thus you affirme say you prescript formes of prayer brought into the publique assemblies to be the changing the worke of the Spirit into an idoll a tradition breaking Christian libertie a deade letter quēching the Spirit c and therfore most detestable But all reformed Churches recieue and vse it c. ● therfore You cā reason well to bring the thruth into contēpt your mouth to open and tongue wher as a sworde therunto If the proposition be true drawe what consequence you wil it is yours an not myne if the doctrine be true yt is Gods worde that giueth sentence against the sinne And if you haue 〈◊〉 spar●●e of grace procure that we may decide the truth with other Churches Doth it follow that because imposing of mens writinges to be read for praying is an ●ynous synne therfore they that vse yt are no Church If I should say so I should iustlie be called an Anabaptist And here you accuse me to pleade for such a freedome in the Church that nothing be receaued which is imposed by commaundement Abaddon is the Father of such Prophets Doth yt follow that because we would haue ●he Church free from al traditions of men which haue no warrant in Gods worde that therfore we would not receaue Gods ordinances by Commaundement That we ought to receaue nothing by Commaundement in the worship of God which God hath not commaunded the secōd cōmaundement with the Scriptures I haue rehearsed are euident Deut 5.32 33. Mat. 25.2.3 Gal. 4.9 Collos. 2.20 But seing your self graueled considering all the world cannot lay a Commandement to bring thei● owne inventions into the assemblies wher God hath laide none but forbidden yt you ranne to your former places of Scripture to wrast them as before where your collections are but vaine repetitions of that which hath beene cōvinced before Moses the Prophets etc. prescribed formes of prayers therfore men now may thrust their writings into the publique assemblies Your Argument is denied and yet here is no warrāt for the reading them ouer for prayer G. Gifford The Church hath povver to expounde those prayers mentioned in the Scriptures and to apply them to their seuerall necessities c. I. Greenvvood If you meane by expounding the breaking vp off them by doctrine and by doctrine and prayer to aplye thē to the seueral vses of the church by liuely voyce far be yt from me to thinke otherwise But if you meane by expounding to make homilies vpon them or liturgies by writing to be thrust vpon the publique assemblies you are wide and now iustifie homilies instead of preaching and written prayers instead of praying shew your warrant The CH●●CHES power is limited by the word G. Gifford When the prayers be framed and composed of nothing but the doctrine of the Scriptures and after the rules of true prayer nothing is broug● in which God hath not commaunded I. Greenvvood THis might have come in before your raylings but you sawe yt was too silly where is that commaundement of God that all mēs wri●tinges in forme of prayer agreable to the Scriptures should b● brought into the publique assemblies your bare worde is not enough t● put 〈◊〉 to silence And when you have gott them into the Church yo● must prove that GOD hath commaunded they should be read fo● praier Where I said our Sauiour Christ neuer vsed the wordes when h● praied of that forme of praier he gaue to his Disciples nether cōmau●●ded his Disciples to say ouer these wordes nether do we reade tha● euer his Apostles did use them or enforced others to vse anie certein number of wordes you say I speake vntrulie For say you the Disciple desired him to teach them to pray as Iohn taught his Disciples an● he commaunded them when you pray say Our Father etc. Luke 1● and S. Math. an Apostle hath deliuered the same to the whole Church I answer I haue never heard that Ihon Baptist taught his Disciples to say ouer certeyne wordes nether can yt be gathered by our Sauiour Christes answere for he answeared not alwaies their verie demaunde according to their wordes but thervpon tooke occasiō to instruct them as he sawe neede And I haue proued by the 6. of Math. that our Sauiour did not commaunde them to say ouer the very wordes when they prayd for the word Houtos in Mathew signifieth after this maner Againe that Math. recordeth not the very number or the very same wordes that Luke doth And now I reason thus if Christ had commaunded those very wordes to be said ouer in praying then we must alwaies whē we pray say ouer those wordes for in Math. ● he saith when you pray pray thus Our Father etc. The word when sheweth that this commaundement is to be observed at all tymes And then the Apostles sinned in praying other wordes Acts. 4.24.25 Furder yt being the most summary forme of prayer most ample most perfect etc. if those wordes were commaunded to be said ouer then we ought not to vse any others for he is accursed that bringeth not the best offring● he hath Malach. 1.14 By all these yt is euident that our Sauiour nor his Evangelists tyed no man to the very wordes saying ouer but according to that forme and those instructions and now leaue of your popish dreames

commaundements of God to sett vp your owne traditiōs And here vpon I demaunded wherupon you would make your stinted and sett prayers You marueile I should be so babling and make such questions you meane about your babling worship You saye of the particulars of the Lordes prayer I demaunde nowe againe whether you can number the starres of heauen or the sandes of the sea if not much lesse the● particulars of the Lordes prayer There is medecine and direction of prayer for euerie soule and euerie disease therof to be drawen fourth by doctrine and prayer as the need requireth you would sett a liturgie vpō some thinges and compell mē thervnto euerie meeting which were nothing els but to seale vp the fountaine and send men to the drye pitts of your execrable devises from the whole fountaine to a pitcher of water from the liuely graces of doctrine and prayer to your owne writinges Paul commaunded to pray for Kings and Princes yet bounde no man what wordes to vse The Lord gyve you repentance of such presumptuous sinne as to alter his worship If you cānot knowe the estate of the soule before hand you can make no formes of wordes for yt Read praiers were deuised by Antechrist and maintaine supers●ition an Idoll ministery therfore read praiers such stinted service are intollerable c. Antichrist devised manie blasphemous wicked praiers But to say that the reading or following a prescript forme of praier was his is most false for there were Liturgies in the Church of olde before Antichrist was set in his throne c. THe Scripture never inforced to reade praiers for praying nether stinted v● what or how manie wordes to vse nether is the formes of praier prescribed in the Scripture anie deuise of man Let vs then hold these two to be the matters in hand the one reading in steade of praying the other stinting and limiting by a written liturgie what and howe ●anie wordes to pray with all other such prescriptions as your liturgie conteyneth All may be affirmed antichristian which is not warranted by Christes worde Yet your liturgie is euē from that Antichrist lifted vp into the throne you speake of as may of all men be seene that will cōpare yt with the Portuis And as I haue heard the Pope would haue approued of your liturgie if yt might haue bene receaued in his name Nowe we haue proued in the discourse before that reading for praying hath no warrant from Gods Worde which maketh them two seuerall and divers actions euery where Here then we must consider something for an other liturgie thē Christes Testament which we shall find to be nothing els then an other gospell And because Mr. Gifford saith ther were liturgies in the Church before Antichrist was lifted vp into his throne which I will not denye I would have all men vnderstand that I do not go about to proue the Church no Church that hath a liturgie as mine Arguments are falslie wrested to that purpose but to proue the vnlawfullnes og such liturgies thrust vpon mēs Consciences is onlie my determination through Gods assistance The worde liturgia signifieth publicum munus ergon Laou the worck of or for the people that is the very execution of the m●nisteriall actions in the Church according to the worde of all the officers therof that is the practise of those ministeriall duties prescribed by Christ we may euery where reade In the first of the Gospell of Luke the 23. verse it is said And it came to passe that when the daies of his ministration were past he went home to his house meaning Zacharias where we see the worde Leitourgia for his execution of his ministeriall functiō Now this Leitourgia of the newe Testament is euen the rule and function prescribed by Christ for the publique actions to be donne in his Church which leiturgie of Christ is perfect and he pronounced accursed that addeth any thing therto or taketh any there from yea all mē are bound to keep the true patterne therof without alteration or innouating anie part of the same yt is called a commaundemēt to be kept without spott till the appearing of our Lorde Iesus Christ. Nowe to make an other leiturgie is to lay an other foundation and to make an other Gospell not that ther is an other Gospell but that ther are some willing to peruert the Gospell of Christ. Thē your leiturgies to which you are sworne and by which you administer being as you cannot denie an other leiturg●e thē Christes Testamēt is plaine an other Gospell for the Canōs and rules you prescribe and impose are such as he hath not prescribed or commaanded or at the best a transforming of his ordinances Now if you should say you do nothing but make lawes of particular thinges collected frō the scriptures ād with that collour impose your liturgies we haue shewed the vnlawfullnes of bringing anie mans writinges as rules into the Church For the explaning of the whole will of Christ so far as is meet for vs he hath giuen vs his officers to administer according to his liturgie by liuely voyce and due executiō of all things by one rule Making then a newe litourgia you must also make a newe ministerie for Christs ministerie cānot administer after a counterfeit liturgie And that Antichrist was the theif Innouator of this liturgie howsoeuer the thing might be long a working by litle and litle yt is plaine when he is called Antikeimenos that opposite man or laier of an other foundation Now we must not make all liturgies beside the Testament of like wickednes or blasphemie But how neere the most heynousest yours approach let him that answereth the other part of your booke witnesse vnto me Nowe where I said you had confessed that you neuer read in the Scriptures any warrant to reade praiers vnto God you say now I knowe I haue falsified your wordes Surely yt would be knowē for I would not willinglie so do your wordes you say were these to your remembrance God neuer commaunded a man to reade praier vpō the booke Is not this the same that I saye you confesse ther is no warrant for reading prayer is ther anie thing warranted in his worship that he hath not commaunded Then you aske me if I will gather thus is it not expresse cōmaunded therfore yt is not warrāted No you forgot the worde expressie to help your self to saye and vnsaye I gathered that because you said absolutely it was not cōmaunded therfore yt was not warranted Here you come againe to shewe your ignorance in the Scriptures to say ther is not anie expresse commaundement to vse praier before or after doctrine And remember you here will haue it a commaundement and said before you hold yt not of necessitie There vvould sundry inconueniences grovve for vvant of a Liturgie or prescript formes of publique prayers STill I must put you in minde of the wisedome of that gouernour of

Sauiour CHRIST was an Anabaptisticall Schismatique that would not himself nor his Disciples obey and obserue the traditions of the Elders And what saith he vnto pleaders for traditions It is thus writtē Marke 7.5 thē asked him the Pharises and the Scribes whie walke not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders but eate meate with vnwashed hands Thē he answeared surely ISAY hat prophecied well of you hypòcrites as it is written this people honoreth me with their lippes but their heartes are far frō me But they worship me in vayne teaching doctrines mēs precepts Fo● you lay the commaundement of God aside and obserue the tradition of mē And to helpe fourth your euill matter instead of proof from the scripture you fall out into furious exclamation against them that desire only to haue the worde practized saying who is able to imagine the innumerable divisions and offences in the practize of your anabaptisticall freedome in which you deny the Church to have power to ordeine and impose any orders lett all men iudge the venemousenes of this tongue Christ pronounceth them accursed that add or super ordeyne any thing to his worde and you pronounce iudgment of them that only obey his worde Shall yt be said that Mr. Gifford holdeth that the only practize of Gods worde would be the cause of innumerable diuisions and offences This hath bene Satans old accusation in the mouth of the most enimies of Christs Gospell nowe yt must be Mr. Giffords accusation of Gods ordinances to be insufficient ● vnperfect etc. fearfull is his Apostacy from that truth he hath knowen I take it yt is more like to be Anabaptistry to practise any thing without warrant of the word to make their owne devises lawes in Gods worship then to do nothing but what God hath commaunded within the limites of our callings For the frāticke ministery yt came of your owne wordes that therfore you must needes haue a liturgie because ther are manie frātick spirits in the ministerie then I say it is like you haue a frantick ministerie that cannot be gouerned without an other liturgie then Christs Testament For their great giftes you speake of I will not compare with them My reason from the Colossians was that as the church there is commaunded to admonish their Pastor Archippus if he transgressed and to stirr him vp to his busines so all minister● that caused divisions contrary to the doctrine of Christ were to be admonished and auoyded if then repent not so that the worde of God and admonition by the same if they transgressed is the waye to keepe all men in due order and not imposing liturgies vpon the church besides Christs Testament And where you collected thus that if read praiers and imposed liturgies be Idolatrous thē wher will you finde a visible church say you I answered that the true Church might erre euen in this poynte though not in like height of sinne Then you desire that the churches of England may find lik● fauour at our hand to which I answeare let him that handleth that question with you shew you how your sinnes herein exceede other countries and persequ●t such as reproue you Your church as you call yt cannot pleade ignorance Your rayling speaches of blind Schismatiques Donatists etc. bewray what sweet water is in the heart if you cannot proue your church to be the established church of CHRIST they light all vpon your self Ther are none Schismatiques but such as departe from the faith shew wherin we haue transgressed and will not be reformed In the meane tyme you are Schismatiques from Christ in that you practize the Statutes of omry You chardge vs with pride for that you saye we imagine to knowe more then all the Churches vppon earth This also hath bene Satans old weapon to deface the truth Iere. 18.18 why maye not a simple babe in Christ see that which whole nations haue not seene we cannot but speake the things GODS Worde teacheth vs if we speake trueth you need not oppose that we iudge anie man yt is the worde of God shall iudge vs all ād I saye yt is an old popish Argument to reason thus all Churches do such a thing therfore it is lawfull except you hold with the Pope that the Church cannot erre which were blasphemous You are not well pleased that I will not say it is no Church that hath a liturgie imposed vpon yt and because you haue so often sclandered me that I hold yt so you take great paynes to conclude it I haue said that to impose mēs writings to be read in stead of praying is to worship God after a false maner that yt is a devise of Antichrist a deade letter quenching the spirit not of faith Idolatrous is changing the worke of the spirit into an Idoll breauing our Christiā libertye and so most detestable By these speaches I condemne al churches say you this is not true I condemne but the sinne But you have sayd I deny that to be the Church that hath any thing ymposed I say you speake an open vntrueth and remember the iudgment of him that inuenteth and maketh lyes And God giue you grace to repent if you belong to him The consideration of this our discourse I hartelie commēde to be dulie ād vprightly wayed of all that feare God who graunt vs his grace to forsake any sinne where it shal be shewed vs by how weake instruments soever yt be reproved and pardon me all my defaults in this my hastie answere Thus have we seene the vnlawfullnes of thrusting mens writings vpon publique assemblies and reading instead of praying A generall Argument against their vvorship in respect of their present estate both of Ministers and people The praiers of such ministers people as stand vnder a false gouernmēt are not acceptable not only because they aske amisse but because they keepe not his Commaundements The praiers of such ministers people as be subiect to Antichrist are abhominable Those ministers people vvhich stand subiect to the Bishops and their Courts are subiect to Antichrist c. Therfore their praiers c. G. Gifford These do oncerne the third fourth accusatiō and therfore the answere is included in the ansvvere to them Yet I take exception against the first that the Church may be holden by force from executing Gods commaundemens touching externall gouernement and yet be the true Church of Grd I alleadged the Church that was holden captiue in Babylon c. I. Greenvvood HEre after your acustomed maner you offer me great wronge first insteade of answere you alter the question very subtylie then you dismember my former answere and not only so but you haue nether let my former āswere be āswered nor prynted Thus you alter the questiō and answere not where the Propositiō speaketh of a ministerie ād people standing vnder a false gouernmēt you say the Church may be holdē vp force from executing Gods commaundements in externall gouernment wherof I never

commandement the others hearts going with the wordes ād saying Amen they that heare pray not as wel as he that according to Gods ordinance speaketh our publique prayers are not the prayers of the Church but of him that speaketh only But now God hath otherwise taught 1. Cor. 14. ād Acts. 4. yt must needs be that Mr. Giss is in great error to thinke none but he that speaketh prayeth I take then such hearing of an others voyce praying ād this to be a foule error to publish the contrarie but that prayer both edifieth him that speaketh and him that heareth and together in heart prayeth I make no doubt Yet herevpon to affirme that here are other meanes of instruction to be vsed in the instant action of praying then praying yt self were as grosse as the other and both a confounding of spiritual exercises and flat contradiction of the Scripture especially so diverse weightie actions of minde and bodie as proseuche ād anagnosis powring out our hearts to God in prayer and reading At other times I did not only allow but teach that we haue al the dayes of our lyves need to be instructed to pray aright and that reading is a blessed meanes therevnto So that you see whiles you of purpose will oppose you runne your self vpon the rocke in stead of justifying your accusatiō of two heresies to be found in my first reason you haue published this follie which you must retract if you wil obey the truth Mr. Giffard thē granting that reading is but to help to prayer and not praying ād now being shewed that it cā be no help in that instant action of praying let vs proceede to pervse an other of his mistakings and willful peruertings I affirming that the holy Ghost neuer enioyned vs to any certaine nūber of words by stint and limitatiō in praying as commanding the very words to be said ouer whē we pray he euery where in his wrytings as a supposed foundatiō to their Leitourgie and Collects alledged out of Numbers the 6. Mat. 6. Lu. 11. exāple of Psalmes ād now Deu. 26. that the Lord did by cōmādemēt binde thē to those verie words saiing ouer whē they prayed or blessed in those formes which are there prescribed For my reasons in disproving this popish carnal cōceipt I refer the Reader to my former answeare to his plublished pretended defence of reading for praying One reasō was drawē frō the words of the text Numb 6.32 where the hebrew words Coh Tebara●u thus shal you blesse do not import a tying thē to the verie words of this forme in blessing but to the rules and instructions there taught them concerning the matter yt self for their direction which I collected by this word Coh which is an adverb of similitude signifiing with vs as much as after this maner and therfore cānot be ●o say the same words but according to the same instructions Where first he reprocheth me for that Tebaracu was false printed therevpon chardging me I cannot reade twoo words right of hebrue which were no great ignominie in their priesthood But shall we say Mr. Giff. cannot reade two words in latine rightly because in the 28. page of his booke he repeateth out of Augustine upoli sui for populi sui This I mention as sory to see the defendor of his false Hierarchie so emptie to leaue founde doctrine and thus to trifle if he had bene at the print it should haue bene amēded it seemeth Now to the doctrine gathered of this word Coh Mr. Gif would invert the words in his owne sēse thus that where I said the Lord did not cōmaund to say the same words but the like that is according to those directions of doctrine he gathereth that I should affirme yt vnlawfull to vse those words at all yea that they might not vse all or anie of these words at anie tyme Whether this be a Christian interpretation of my words or no I leaue not only to all mens but chieflie to his owne conscience to be considered Yet he still couertly persisting in his error produceth a place of scripture where the word Coh as he thinketh is vsed for the saying of the verie words Exod. The Lord said to Moses Thus shalt thou say vnto the children of Israel Eheie hath sent me vnto yee moreouer God said vnto Moses thus shalt thou say vnto them The God of your Fathers etc. According to Mr. Grenewoods interpretation saith he Moses is not commanded to say those words but the like True he is not here bound to this certeine number of words or the same words If then they should say what is his name that hath sent thee he may not say Eheie hath sent me because God said Coh etc. Now Mr. Giffard sheweth himself ashifter I did neuer hold it vnlawfull to vse anie wordes of the Scripture as need required it is your sclander where you have in all your bookes affirmed we hold it vnlawfull to say thy kingdome come or vse anie phrase of Scripture to right vse your woeful wresting of the tongue for vntruthes wil tourne to your further iudgment I proued only by the word Coh which signifieth after this maner that God commaunded not the very certaine number of words to be said And where I sayd the word Coh was so vsed in all the Prophets when they say Thus saith the Lord to this end that neither the holy Ghost had registredal their verie words they spake nor that they were tyed to the prescript number of words he would haue it thought I should hold those words which are recorded not to be the words of God which wresting of my words is but his emptie quarreling to turne away this firme doctrine namely that God did in those formes of prayer mentioned by him prescribe the somme of their blessings ād petitions whervnto they ought according to their seuerall occasions within the limits of these doctrines frame their suites and desires ād did not tye them to a certaine number of words Now he finding himself pressed in that al his proofes are at once brought to be weapōs against him rather then warrant It being prooved vnto him that those formes are repeated in other words in other places and that the Priests vsed other in blessing the people as Eli blessed Hanna also that the Apostles vsed other words in prayer and neuer that verie forme and number of words he playnly denyeth that our question was about the bynding and limiting to the verie words by commandement and saith our question was whither it were idolatrie to vse those prescript phrases or no. Thus the man is sled not only contradicting all his writinges making voide his proofes but granting as much as I affirmed vpon the word COH hath gyven mee the whole cause against ●is will For if these places will not serue to prove an apportioning by number and stint vpon commandement then Mr. Gissard hath no profe for his Collect● no though these had bene so yet his patched

broken mass booke shoulde haue bene far from comming in place of true pr●yer But that this is a popish dreame to think in prayer they were bound to some certeyne number of words saying ouer it was also conuinced vnto him by the Greeke word Houtos where Christ commandeth his Disciples saying When you pray pray thus Our Father c. Which word Thus Mat. 6.9 singnifieth after this maner or according to this forme rules and instructions for if the commandement shoulde goe to bynde vs to the very words then this word when you pray would bynd vs never to vse other words for the text saith when you pray say thus To this he answereth that respecting the rules for matters when is as much as whensoeuer you pray because we may not depart from those matters conteyned in those general petitions But in words it is not so there We must consider to distinguish et●3 Wel hath he not lost himself and still against his will yeilded the matter namely that wee are not in these formes of prayer bound to the verie words saying ouer and that the holy Ghost did neuer by commandement stint or limit vs to anie words in praying which in deed is common with inchanters And I take it he will easily yeild me this point for if he remember Augustine to teach that then we pray that prayer which Christ taught his Disciples when our prayers are grounded vpon those doctrines and instructions or to that effect And Calvine to say the Sonne of mā would not prescribe vs what words we must vse in prayer he should haue put vs to lesse trouble So that besids his mass-booke was neuer prescribed by the Lord himself or warrant of his word he seeth it vnlawful to apportion limit and stint as by measure and waight certeine numbers of wordes sentēces etc. in prayer As for his examples of the Psalmes I refer to my former answere namely that praying is our thing and singing a psalme an other Now then we haue heard that reading is not praying or any help to pray in the instant action of praying when we should powre forth our owne hearts to God Also that it is vnlawful to bynde mā to numbers of words or sentences in praying Let vs come to the first generall argument which is this No Apocrypha must be brought into the publick assemblies for there only Gods word and the lively voyce of his owne graces must be heard in the publick assemblies But mens wrytings and the reading them ouer for prayer are Apocrypha Therfore may not be brought into the publick assemblies eyther for lawes or worship Here hee finds fault with the worde Apocrypha although it hath bene an antient word in this sense and now published in their Bibles to distinguish other writings from the authentick scriptures willing mee to goe to the matter yt self drawing by firme conclusion that nothing is to be allowed any place in the Church which is not the perfect rule yt self in writing or without errour vttered in speach and he wil yeild This I did proue vnto him by an Argument hee was not able to answere and did leaue out the word Apocrypha thus Only the Canonical Scriptures and liuely voice of Gods owne graces are to be brought into the publick assemblies for doctrine and prayer But mens writings or Collections are neither Canonical Scripture nor the liuely voice of Gods graces in such as he hath appointed to speake in the publick assēblies Therfore no mans writings may be brought into nor imposed vpon the publick assemblies for doctrine and prayer Now where he cauilleth about the perfectnes of the rule and absolute perfectnes of the graces it doth not help him For the word of GOD being of necessitie by the lawe and ordinance of God to be read in our owne language I trust he will not denye yt to be the written word of GOD for the vnperfectnes of the translation being to the best search the Church can make skanned by the original tongue and stil amended or at least the Church no further bound to yt then yt shal be found to be the perfect rule so likewise the liuely voice of GODS graces are not for the imperfectnes to be excluded being God 's appointed ordinance neither is anie fault in the translation to be allowed and errour in doctrine or prayer are presently to be admonished and repented of Maister Giffard then must denye the Bible translated into our owne language to be the Canonicall Scriptures and denye the liuely voice of GODS lawfull officers and such as are therevnto called in doctrine and prayer to be the manifestations of the Spirit and vtterance of Gods graces for the assemblie or els grant the proposition firme And if hee can put dead mens writinges into the place of either of these I will yeild In the meane time I hold such translations to be the worde of GOD and by Gods ordinance put into our owne lāguage to all our knowledges retayning the words of GOD which word and the lyuely vse of Gods owne graces in the mouth of such as he therevnto appointeth are only to be brought into the publicke assemblies for prayer and doctrine for GOD hath commanded these vnto vs as his owne ordinances in his assemblies and no other means wherby either God speaketh vnto vs or his people vnto him in the Congregation To this all the Scriptures beare witnesse the word is always firme confirmed with miracles from heauen and commended to vs by Christ the Prophetts and Apostles to be the foundation Canon light lanterne etc. the graces of the Spirit gyven for the interpretation prayer doctrine etc. Christ is ascended vp into heauen and hath giuen giftes vnto men to serve their tyme and minister in their place in this house These graces stil renewed not only in those called of GOD in this seruice for their dayly administration but newe workmen thrust forth into this haruest as the Lord of the house disposeth which graces of his Spirit are compared to two oliue branches which emptie out of themselues thorow two golden pipes Zacharie 4.12 And to seuen thunders which vtter their voices that cannot be written Away therfore with your patched mass-booke yt may neither stande for a foundation in Gods house nor for the lyuely voyces of these thunders you make yt a monstrous Idoll by putting yt in either of these vses yet you will make yt serve for both Wee haue nothing to do with your matters of order as you vnderstād that order for tyme place etc. wee reason of the Spirituall action yt self when wee entreat of the meanes whereby God speaketh to vs and appointeth vs to speake vnto him Wee can cast out the errours in the translatiō or doctrine or prayer and yet reeaine Gods worde in our owne language and the liuely voice of his graces in the ●assemblie When you can do so with your deuises and newe hatched Leitourgies wee will giue eare vnto you and them till