these five Years E. D. I do not doubt then but that you are a good Proficient by this time in our English Tongue F. P. Truly Sir I have nothing to boast of in this regard for whether it be the hardness of the English Tongue or the thickness of my Scull I know not but so it is that I can onely make a shift to speak some broken English E. D. Don't say so Sir methinks you speak very intelligibly and proper enough for a Foreigner I can understand you very well and if you please to enter with me for this is my House I shall be glad to have some further discourse with you F. P. Sir I accept of your kindness and if you please to shew me the way I shall follow you E. D. Sir you are very heartily welcome I am glad to see you here be pleas'd to take a Seat Pray Sir how do you like our Countrey F. P. Extraordinary well Sir and were it not for the unhappy Divisions that are amongst you especially in matters of Religion I should have reason to believe this with the adjoining Islands to be the Insulae Fortunatoe or happy Islands of the Antients E. D. I perceive Sir you are sensible then of the Divisions that are amongst us F. P. Ay Sir I am but too well inform'd of them and indeed very sadly concern'd to see that Protestants cannot agree amongst themselves which certainly casts a great blemish upon the Reformation E. D. So it doth indeed Sir and you may thank the Church of England for it F. P. Why the Church of England Sir E. D. Because 't is She has refused all terms of Accommodation that we Protestant Dissenters as they call us have offer'd to her F. P. I never heard that she had refused any But pray Sir be pleas'd to let me know what those terms are that you have offer'd her and she hath refused E. D. We have propounded to her the laying aside of the Common-prayer and parting with her Ceremonies and for other things we might probably comply with them F. P. But Sir are you sure that what you demand is reasonable and may justly be granted E. D. Without doubt she may and she ought and she can do no less for us than to wave her Popish Common-prayer-book and cast off her superstitious Ceremonies F. P. Pray Sir let me beg of you to acquaint me what you have to object against the Common-prayer and afterwards if the time gives leave I shall be glad to hear what you have to alledge against our Church-Ceremonies E. D. That I will Sir and shall do it the more freely because I should be glad to undeceive you for I perceive by your discourse you are one of that Party F. P. To deal sincerely with you Sir I am a Member of the Church of England but withall a true friend to Dissenters and I hope you will be so too if in Answering your Objections I can convince you that the Common-prayer of the Church is very good and edifying and her Ceremonies lawfull and decent E. D. I shall consider what you have to say F. P. But Sir it lies at your door to begin by propounding your Objections against the common-Common-prayer E. D. I have many things to object against that Idol And in the first place I think it ought to be taken away because it is unlawfull to have a set Form of Prayer impos'd upon the Church F. P. Either you or I Sir are strangely mistaken in this point for I must own that my Judgment always hath been that it is not onely lawfull to have a set Form of Prayer in the Church but what is more that no Church can well be without one E. D. Pray how so Sir For if I be not greatly mistaken you speak now against the General sense of the French Protestants for I never heard that they had any set Forms of Prayer F. P. I perceive Sir you have been ill inform'd concerning these matters for the truth is we French Protestants have a Common-prayer-book which was compos'd by Calvin himself and therein we agree with the concurring practise of the Universal Church for I never read or heard of any Church in the World but had a set Form of Prayer so that for you to oppose it is no less than to deny the Authority Testimony and Practise of all the Saints of the Old and New Testaments both Prophets and Apostles and the express Command of our Saviour himself and in a word Sir you condemn the general sense and practise of Christianity and the Holy Catholick Church E. D. I hear what you say Sir and expect you should prove it F. P. Nay more than this you contradict the Example of our great Lord and Master the Founder of our Religion and the Author and Finisher of our Faith E. D. This is a high Charge indeed but pray be pleas'd to make it out F. P. That I will Sir First I say that you contradict the Authority and Practice of the Prophets in the Old Testament forasmuch as it is evident that they made use of set Forms of Prayer and had a particular Command so to doe to be convinc'd of this be pleas'd to reade the 26th Chapter of Deuteronomy from Verse 13. to 16. and the 14th Chapter of Hosea beginning at the second Verse Take with you words and turn unto the Lord and say unto him c. and the 2d of Joel Verse 17. Let the Priests the Ministers of the Lord weep between the Porch and the Altar and let them say Spare thy people O Lord c. Secondly You contradict the Command of our Lord and Saviour and the Practice of the holy Apostles which I prove from the 11th Chapter of St. Luke the 1st and 2d Verses where we reade that one of our Saviour's Disciples asked him in the Name of all his Companions to teach them to pray as John had taught his Disciples whereupon our Saviour addressing himself to all his Disciples said When ye pray say Our Father c. From whence I infer these two things First That the Apostles had a set Form of Prayer prescrib'd them by Christ himself for it is impossible to order any Form in more plain and express terms than our Saviour makes use of in recommending this Prayer to his Disciples Secondly I conclude from hence that the Disciples made use of this Form which will not be question'd if we consider the great desire they shewed to obtain this Form of Prayer from our Saviour and the readiness wherewith they always obeyed the Commands he laid upon them So that this cannot but be a sufficient proof to any thinking Man that when they prayed they made use of this Form or Prescription their blessed Lord and Master had at their request given them with this express Command When you pray say Our Father c. 3. You oppose the General Practice of Christendom and of the Holy Catholick Church because neither your self nor any
Man else can give an instance of any Church in the World from the Apostles times to these our days but what had a set Form of Prayers for though all have not used the same yet there is no Church but has used some Form or other 4. You condemn the Example and Practice of our dear Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ himself for it is evident that he himself made use of a Form of Prayer Matt. 26. v. 44. E. D. I will not undertake now to return you a particular Answer to what you have here alledged but shall onely say that Praying by a Form has by experience been found a hindrance and obstacle to true fervent Prayer in the Spirit and to deal plainly with you this seems to be one great reason why the Ministers of the Church of England are so dull and ignorant in this point and so little acquainted with spiritual Prayer F. P. I am not a little surpriz'd at this your Answer for having but just now proved to you that the Prophets and Apostles the Holy Catholick Church and Christ himself made use of Forms of Prayer you after all this come and tell me that Praying by Forms is a hindrance to Praying by the Spirit which is as much as to say that neither the prophets Apostles the Catholick Church nor Christ himself prayed by the Spirit because they made use of a set Form which is a near step to Blasphemy E. D. I did not design to say so much neither though I must confess that Praying by a set Form seems to me for I find it so by experience to be a great Obstacle to true spiritual Prayer F. P. Though it may seem so to you yet your Charity should lead you rather to question your own Judgment than to pass so rash a Censure upon the Saints of the Old and New Testament yea upon Christ himself besides you ought to be very wary of exposing your self to the derision of all men by supposing your self wiser than all the Prophets and Apostles than the whole Christain Church and Christ himself since it is most certain that they made use of Forms and not onely so but our Saviour himself prescribed a Form of Prayer to his Disciples commanding them when they prayed to use the same which he would never have done had it indeed been so great a hindrance to servent Prayer by the Spirit as you pretend E. D. If it be not a hindrance to others I am sure 't is so to me F. P. I hope I shall understand you better if you please to explain to me what you mean by praying by the Spirit E. D. I suppose no true Christian can be ignorant of what Praying by the Spirit is and therefore I can't see any necessity there is of explaining a thing so obvious to the understanding of all F. P. Since you seem unwilling to give me your meaning I am very free to give you mine to pray by the Spirit is as I take it to pray by the help and assistance of the Holy Ghost so as to have our hearts and minds deeply affected with the sense of our wants and all our Faculties and Affections inflamed with the Love of God and stedfast Faith in his Promises E. D. I perceive we do not disagree at all in the meaning of the words F. P. I am glad we are so far agreed for it is evident that according to this meaning of the words a set Form of Prayer is so far from being a hindrance that indeed it is a great help to fervent praying by the Spirit and on the contrary Extemporary Prayer must needs be a great impediment to it To convince you of this I desire you would consider that when we pray by a Form we have more time to study the import of our Requests and to weigh and examine every Petition with greater attention we have more leisure to understand and discern our wants and to present them before God we can the better prepare and dispose our selves for so holy a Duty and in a word we can be more intent and recollected to improve the motions of the Spirit having nothing else to doe but to fix our mind wholly on God whilst we are praising of him and have our hearts suitably affected with the things we pray for Whereas in Extemporary Prayer the mind of the Minister or whoever else it is that prayeth is taken up in hunting for expressions to utter his thoughts and for fear of being put to a stand he is forced to follow not the motions of the Spirit or the dictate of his understanding but the fluency of an acquired habit of Praying and by this means doth often begin where he should end and end where he should begin And those very men that speak so much against the necessary and edifying Repetitions that we use in our Common-prayer do very frequently in their Extemporary-prayer repeat the same things over and over again though it may be in different expressions And as for the People that hear a Minister pray an Extemporary-prayer as they do not know before-hand what he will say they must first attend to what he saith in the next place they must consider whether what he prayeth be according to the Word of God and fit for them to join with but whilst the Hearer is thus employ'd he that prays is got to another thing and leaves his Hearers behind to overtake him as they best can which according to my apprehension makes the way of praying extempore so difficult and uneasie that it is morally impossible for both Minister and People to pray so devoutly or at least so understandingly as they ought to doe If you please well to weigh and consider what I have here offered I question not but you will be convinced that a set Form of Prayer is so far from being a hindrance that it is a great furtherance to zealous praying by the Spirit whereas the Prayer you are so much taken with is indeed a great obstacle to it E. D. However Sir I suppose you will grant me that it is this tying themselves up to a Form that hath made the Ministers of the Church of England so dull and devoid of the Gift of Prayer that they cannot pray without Book and may rather be compar'd to those Dumb dogs whom the Prophet reproves than be look'd upon as Ministers of the Gospel F. P. Though I am a Stranger here yet I have very good reason to believe that I am better acquainted with the Ministers of the Church of England than you are and am better inform'd of their parts and abilities than you can be for I have made it my business to be acquainted with them not maliciously to slander and abuse them but to the end I might the better understand and value them and profit by them And if you will give me leave to speak my Judgment which is not grounded upon hear-say but upon good knowledge of and converse with
them I must render them this true and unbiass'd testimony That of all the Clergy I ever was acquainted with they are the most Learned and Godly E. D. You are a French man Sir and therefore I suppose that much of this may pass for Compliment F. P. I am indeed a French-man by birth but yet I value my self upon this account that in heart and affection I am a hearty true English-man And fince you are pleas'd to look upon my judgment of the English Clergy no better than a Compliment I challenge you to tell me what Nation in the World can boast of having such great and worthy Divines as we have E. D. Pray how comes it to pass then that they cannot pray F. P. Who told you they could not Sure I am that they both can and do pray and that so excellently that as they surpass those of other Nations for Learning so likewise in Devotion and the Gift of Prayer and if you had taken time to peruse their Books of Devotion you would never have told me as you do That the prescribing of a Form of Prayer has been the occasion why the Ministers of the Church of England are become so dull and ignorant even to that excess that they cannot pray E. D. However I think they are much to blame for that in their Pulpits if they pray at all they dispatch them in so few words that any one that hears them will be apt to conclude they cannot pray but should you once come to our Meetings ay there you would hear Praying indeed F. P. I will not deny but that commonly our Clergy in the Pulpit use onely a short Prayer before Sermon but don 't at all deserve to be blam'd but rather to be commended for so doing if we consider first that our Clergy chuse to make use of a short Prayer onely before Sermon because they have found by wofull Experience that long extemporary Prayers have begot in most People a dislike of the Common-prayer and consequently have been the occasion of those unchristian Animosities Schisms and Divisions that are so rife amongst us And I think you have no just reason to blame this pre-caution of theirs till you have made out first that the People doe well to undervalue and despise the Common-prayer and that the Aversion they have for it is a sufficient ground for Schism and Division A second reason why the Ministers of the Church of England use such short Prayers is that by this means they may condescend to the weakness of the People lest an over-long Prayer should weary those who have already attended upon and join'd their hearts and voices with the publick Prayers offer'd up to God by the Church And in the third and last place we shall find that there is nothing good or usefull for us which the Minister hath not already prayed for nor any thing evil or hurtfull which he has not deprecated in the publick Prayers appointed by the Church which methinks might at least lessen the fault of our Clergy in your sight and somewhat allay the bitterness of your Censure against them And as for your Meetings where you tell me there is Praying indeed I must freely tell you that though I never was at any Meeting in my life yet I have often had an opportunity of hearing your Ministers pray but forasmuch as my temper doth not incline me and my Religion much less to pass any offensive Reflexion upon any sort of People therefore I humbly crave leave to be excus'd from giving you my opinion of them E. D. Though I cannot but approve of your Modesty in this regard yet I should be glad to have you speak out and therefore I desire you to tell me freely from your heart what you think of them and whether they do not pray very well F. P. Because you urge me I shall in compliance with your desires tell you and that with all the truth and sincerity imaginable that I am so far from liking their unpremeditated extemporary Prayers that I altogether disapprove them and above all am much offended at their way of praying E. D. Sure you don't speak from your heart now as I desired you would for if you did you could not say so since it is certain that they pray incomparably better than any of your Church-men one of their unpremeditated Prayers being far beyond all the Prayers that are in your Common-prayer-book F. P. Good Sir I must entreat you for once to lay aside all your Prejudices and to make use of your Reason so far as to consider whether it be not morally impossible that men who never were brought up in an University and scarcely ever had the full instruction of a Grammar-school which may be said of the most of your Ministers should without any premeditation pray incomparably better than our Church-men who have had the best means and opportunities in the World to improve their parts and abilities And whether an extemporary Prayer whined out I beg your pardon if that word offend you by an illiterate man should infinitely surpass all the Prayrs of the Common-prayer-book which have been compiled by some of the wisest and most Judicious Divines that ever England could boast of E. D. How strangely you talk now as if it were impossible for any man to pray well that hath not been bred at the Universities F. P. You mistake me Sir this was none of my assertion I onely said it was morally impossible that illetrate men should pray incomparably better than those that have been brought up at the Universities whose whole business and employment it is to understand the Scripture and to be conversant in those studies that most conduce to true Godliness which surely are the best means to teach them to pray also E. D. But the Apostles you know were simple illiterate men and yet they could pray infinitely bertter than all the Rabbies and all the great Doctors of the Synagogue F. P. I grant you that but withall desire you would consider that though the Apostles were illiterate men yet were they extraordinary men call'd and sent by God in an extraordinary manner to bring about an extraordinary work yea a Work greater than that of the Creation it self they were by their Ministry to change and renew the face of the whole World to pluck the false Gods from their Temples to beat down their Altars to silence their Oracles to abolish their Worship to root out their Customs to overcome their Prejudices and to oppose and defeat a Religion of as long standing as the World it self a Religion that was in full possession of the Spirits of all men and which by consequence could engage for her defence whatsoever was authoritative great or powerfull amongst all Nations They were to be the Planters of a new Religion in the World to brave and challenge all the power of Princes to stand the shock of the Sophisms of Philosophers and the Politicks of States-men
it will never be a lawfull one for to speak freely and without mincing the matter I am of opinion that though it may be lawfull to use some Form of Prayer yet it is altogether unlawfull to use that Form which is now in vogue amongst you F. P. Then I find you are not altogether irreconcilable to the Lawfulness of Praying by Forms but you are not satisfied with the Forms we use I shall be glad to hear the Grounds of your dissatisfaction as hoping by this means to have an opportunity offer'd me to enlarge my self more in the Praise of our common-Common-prayer than hitherto I have had occasion to do E. D. I know the humour of French-men is to be complaisant and complimental and so very probably you design in comliment to the Church of England to fall down to the Common-prayer the great Idol of the English Clergy as you have already express'd your great Respects for their dull and prophane Priests F. P. I beg of you sir let us discourse without Prejudice or Passion and be so kind as to tell me calmly and friendly what Objections you have against our Common-prayer-book in particular E. D. Before I give you the Particular Objections I have against the Common-prayer-book I shall premise this General Observation That your Common-prayer is so bad that there is nothing good in it no nor any thing that is so much as tolerable F. P. How strangely you and I differ in Opinion As for my part I really think there is nothing in it but what is very good E. D. If you can prove that as I desire you would Eris mihi magnus Apollo for indeed you will do more than all your Clergy-men that ever I discours'd with and more than all the Books that treat of this Subject have been able to do F. P. If the case be so indeed I should be loath to undertake the task For if none of our Clergy that you have discours'd with nor any of those excellent Books written in the Defence of our Liturgy have been able to convince you of the goodness and usefulness thereof it would be folly for me to attempt it for I am very sensible that my Parts and Abilities are far below any one of our Clergy that you have had to deal with and to speak the truth 't is from them and their Writings I have acquired the best part of that little learning and insight into these things that I have E. D. I hope you are as modest a Man as your discourse would import besides being a French Protestant you as such can have neither publick nor private Reason to bear any ill-will to our Party wherefore I look upon you as an unbiass'd Person without Prejudice or Partiality and consequently fit to be discours'd with about the matter in question between us And indeed all this makes me the more desirous to hear the Arguments you can produce for proving your Assertion That there is nothing in the Common-prayer-book but what is very good F. P. I thought all this while that you intended to propound your Objections against the Common-prayer and that my onely business would have been to Answer them E. D. I suppose we may do both these things at once for if you please to tell me what you find so extraordinary good in the Common-prayer I shall also on my part declare what I dislike in it F. P. Be it so And to the end we may proceed with some order let us cursorily reade over the Common-prayer-book which I have here with me E. D. This indeed will be a good way to enable us to judge the better concerning it and therefore I am very free to run it over with you onely must desire you not to take it ill if now and then I interrupt you with my Objections against any part of it F. P. What you desire is contain'd in our agreement for according to it I am to tell you what I approve of in our Liturgy and you are to tell me what you dislike in it by propounding your Objections against it E. D. Very well and in so doing we shall finely Anatomize these Relicks of Popery But it is your turn to begin F. P. The first thing I meet with in our Common-prayer-book are some Sentences of the Holy Scriptures of which the Minister is to reade one or more before he proceeds to the Prayers or Devotions which seems to me to be very proper and usefull for certainly we can never better begin God's Service than with his own Words Next follows an Exhortation wherein is represented to the People the End of their present assembling or meeting together which is as the Exhortation expresseth it To confess their Sins to render Thanks to God to set forth his Praise and to ask those things that be necessary either for Soul or Body and towards the end thereof we are informed and directed how to perform these holy and bounden Duties viz. sincerely and reverently with a pure heart and humble voice which caution is very necessary if we consider how prone Men are without any due preparation of themselves to rush into the presence of the great God who is a consuming fire and before whom they ought to appear with the most reverential awe and trembling as likewise how apt we are to utter any thing before him without considering that he is in Heaven and we on Earth and how negligent we generally are in disposing and qualifying our selves for the acceptable performance of the Sacred Duties of our Religious Worship E. D. So far all is pretty tolerable but by and by we shall meet with a great deal of stuff F. P. Not to insist now upon your plain contradicting of your self for whereas but just now you positively asserted that there was nothing so much as tolerable in our Liturgy you now plainly confess the contrary I shall onely desire you when we come to those places where your great deal of stuff lies that you would stop me for I shall be glad to hear the Objections you have against any part of it and in the mean time I proceed to speak of the Confession which is the next thing that occurs in our Liturgy The Minister and People having been thus stirr'd up by the foregoing Exhortation to compose their Thoughts and prepare their Hearts for a due offering up of their Morning or Evening Sacrifice the next thing they do is to fall down on their knees confessing in a solemn and humble manner their Sins unto Almighty God earnestly imploring his Grace and Mercy for the Pardon of them And this according to my apprehension is very proper and necessary in our approaches to God for since it is our Sins that separate between God and us and hide his face from us we can do no better than in the first place to beg of our most mercifull Father the Remission of them that he may utterly efface them and put them out of the way of
the English Liturgy and antient Discipline was like to be restor'd He alledgeth another Testimony of Monsieur Gache's then Minister of Chearenton one of the most eloquent and zealous Preachers the French Reformed Churches ever had who in one of his Letters declares That he had read the English Liturgy and had been wonderfully edified by it He produceth also a Letter of Monsieur du Bosc the Minister of Cane an extraordinary Person for Learning Eloquence and true Piety where he declares That he as much approves of a minister performing Divine Service after the way of the Church of England as he that officiates according to the manner of the French Reformed Churches Besides these he sets down the Testimony of Monsieur Bochart the Minister of Alancon a Man of great Repute and Learning who declares he found the Liturgy to be very good and well order'd as also that of Monsieur Goyon Minister of Bordeaux one of the most greave and learned Divines of all the Province of Aquitain and greatly versed in Antiquity in these words There is not one Minister saith he in all the Province of Aquitain that thinks his Conscience offended by using of the English Liturgy and declares that those people dream and dote who are of that Opinion and those Gentlemen amongst you do extreamly wrong us when they quote us for to foment their Schism which cannot but be very scandalous But that I may not be further tedious I shall refer you to the foresaid Book of Dr. Durel where you will find enough to convince you that all our worthy Divines such as Peter du Moulin Monsieur Drelincourt Monsieur Daillé Monsieur Amyraut c. have express'd no less Esteem for the English Liturgy than any Son of the Church of England ever did To all which Testimonies I will add that of Spanhemius a French Divine and sometimes Preacher and Divinity-Reader at Geneva in his Epistle Dedicatory to the Lord Primate of Ireland prefixed to the Third Part of his Dubia Evangelica where commending the Publick Worship of God in the Church of England he declares that the like is scarcely to be found elsewhere E. D. According to what you tell me I cannot believe your French Divines to be Calvinists for I am confident Calvin was not of their opinion with regard to the English Liturgy F. P. To the end you may be able to judge what Calvin's opinion was about this matter I shall refer you to a passage of his in an Epistle Dedicatory to the Duke of Somerset Lord Protector during the minority of King Edward VI. which will convince you I suppose that he was of the same judgment with the rest of our French Divines his words are these Quoad formam Precum Rituum Ecclesiasticorum valde probo ut certa illa exstet à qua Pastoribus discedere in functione sua non liceat tam ut consulatur quorundam simplicitati imperitioe quam ut certius ita constet omnium inter se Ecclesiarum consensus postremò etiam ut obviam eatur desultoriae quorundam levitati qui novationes quasdam affectant Which may be englished thus As touching the form of Prayer and Ceremonies of the Church I do extremely approve that it be set and fixed so as it may not be lawfull for the Ministers to recede from it in their function as well to help and assist the simplicity and unskilfulness of some as to give a fuller evidence of the consent and uniformity of all the several Congregations and finally that by this means the changeable humour of those that affect novelties may be check'd and obviated E. D. I always thought Calvin had been of the same judgment that we are though you would seem to persuade me to the contrary But to make an end of our Discourse at this time I shall onely ask you one question more and then I have done which is this What your French Divines judge concerning us who for Conscience sake refuse to make use of the Liturgy in our Assemblies or to frequent the Congregations of those that do F. P. What you desire you may find in the forementioned Discourse of Dr. Durel where he sets down this Letter of the Reverend Monsieur Goyon Minister at Bordeaux which is thus translated SIR I Have received your Letter with an extreme satisfaction as having been informed thereby both of your own condition and of that of the Church of England I must confess that we have been strangely deceived in this Countrey by what hath been related to us touching the English Presbyterians I did always imagine them to be a People that followed the same order we observe in our Churches of France but it seems they are very far from it The Description you give of them shews them to be a strange Sect not fit to be tolerated and I conceive that the best remedy of this disorder and confusion would be to reduce them all to the Episcopal Government for I hold it impossible that the Church of England should ever be quiet or flourish otherwise The Convocation comes in a very fit time for this purpose and I question not but that Assembly will take order about it which will be a great satisfaction to me for otherwise you will be continually in trouble and the Adversaries will take advantage thereby either to blemish and slander our Religion or to contrive and foment Plots against the State I beseech the Lord that he would be pleased to rule and govern that Holy Assembly and pour his Blessings upon their Determinations for the Advancement of his Kingdom E. D. Though this Man saith too much yet he saith nothing in particular to the point of our refusing to reade the Common-prayer in our Assemblies and to frequent the Churches where it is read F. P. If you think that Monsieur Goyon doth not speak home enough to the matter in question be pleased to reade what Ludovicus Capellus Divinity-Professor at Saumur saith to it in the Body of Divinity published by him and his two Collegues Moses Amyraldus and Joshua Placoeus in which Book this Learned Man having at large proved the Lawfulness Vse and Necessity of a set Form of Liturgy in opposition to the then newly started Directory which the Presbyterians endeavour'd to establish instead of the common-Common-prayer It is also worthy our noting that he maintain'd a publick Dispute on this Subject in the Divinity-School wherein he defended the common-Common-prayer of the Church of England as good sound and expedient against the Cavils and Objections of the Presbyterians even at that very time when the Opposers of set Forms were in the greatest power in this Kingdom and that it was generally believed the Liturgy of the Church of England would never have been restored E. D. But what saith he in particular of us for if you don't tell me I shall scarce take the pains of reading over his Book to inform my self F. P. I am unwilling to give you his
words because I fear you 'll find some of his Expressions too sharp and cutting E. D. As long as I suppose he was no English Tory I shall take all he saith of us in good part F. P. Towards the end of his first Thesis he saith Vnum superest examinandum c. which in English speaks thus There remains yet one thing to be enquir'd into viz. Whether there ought to be a certain set Form of Liturgy consisting of express words or Whether it ought rather to be left to the will of the Pastor to use what words or form he pleaseth and this because of a new Generation of late Upstarts which will admit of no certain and prescribed Form of Liturgy neither in the publick Assemblies of the Church nor in private Devotions but maintain that all ought to be left to the pleasure of Ministers and the Heads of Families And in his sixth Thesis he declares That the several Authors of the Reformation had every where compos'd and prescrib'd several set Forms of Liturgy and that the same were still made use of by the Reformed Churches in their several Nations and Districts with happy success and edification till of late there arose in England a froward scrupulous and over nice not to say superstitious Generation of men who thought good not onely to blame and find fault with but wholly to abrogate and cast off the Liturgy hitherto used in their Church instead whereof they have introduc'd their Directory as they call it He adds further That the Reasons and Causes you pretend to have for abolishing the common-Common-prayer were levissimoe nulliusque pene momenti very slight and scarce of any moment at all And in Thesis 28. he saith Certainly nothing else has stirred up these men so eagerly to reject all manner of set Forms of Prayer but partly the desire of innovating and corrupting to the end that under the specious pretext of Liberty to pray and prophesie they might introduce all manner of Sects and Errors into the Church and partly their false and prejudicate opinion persuading themselves that we are now arriv'd at that time wherein as in the days of the Apostles the Spirit of Prophecy of Prayer and Supplications is to be poured forth upon the present Church according to that of Joel 2.28 and Zach. 12. v. 10. which is the common and most pestilent Error of all the Phanaticks concerning the fending of the H. Ghost by Christ c. And drawing up his whole Dissertation into certain Conclusions he saith Thesis 49. The use of these set Forms of Prayer cannot justly be condemned forasmuch as the same may be always and every where profitable and convenient and because they have been receiv'd by the universal Christian Church for these 1300 years all the World over except onely among these new-fangled Independents so he calls all those who reject the use of set Forms And Thesis 50. he adds further So that the perversness peevishness and superstition or rather the malapert and obstinate wilfulness of these men is both prodigious and sensless who out of a mere humour or desire of lawless licentiousness or out of design to introduce confusion into the Church do superstitiously condemn and compare to an Idol forbidden by the fourth Commandment a thing which in it self is most innocent the use of it edifying and the practice of it most convenient which has long obtained in the Universal Church was never yet condemned by any Church and which all the Churches of God make use of with the greatest benefit that may be which yet these men most foolishly would have all to forbear and abhor And lastly in 51 Thesis he saith And amongst the rest those are most to be detested who either will not allow the Lord's Prayer to be said at all or will have it said alone and not in conjunction with any other Prayer whether publick or private and who think it a great sin for any godly man to be present either in the Church at common-Common-prayer or in any Family at private Devotions where any set Form is used and hold this for a just cause of Separation from the Church lest they should be Partakers of the Sins of those who use set Forms and thereby become defiled being not unlike to those of whom the Prophet Isaith speaks chap. 6. v. 5. which say Stand by thy self come not near me for I am holier than thou these are a smoak in my nostrils saith the Lord that is they kindle my wrath against them The Lord grant they may return to a better mind Amen And so say I too Amen Amen And thus I take my leave of you in the words of this Learned and most Renowned Divine E. D. But pray why in such haste We have not yet made an end of our dispute for when I told you I had done I meant with your Liturgy Wherefore now it remains that we discourse concerning the Ceremonies of your Church which I intended for a Second Part of this our Conference F. P. If I be not mistaken we have discours'd long enough for once besides I must give you time to consider what hath been said and if you chance to approve it and desire further to discourse me about the Ceremonies of the Church I now assure you that I shall at any time be ready to serve you to the utmost of my power The End of the First Part.
interrupting the free course of his gracious and benign Communications and Influences If I regard saith the Psalmist iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear my prayer Psal 66. v. 16. Moreover it is very reasonable before we beg any favour from God to entreat for a removal of those Evils we groan under viz. the guilt and punishment of our Sins E. D. I suppose you did not observe this method in the Common-prayer the Protestants use in France F. P. Yes but we did Our Ministers always begin Divine Service with a Sentence of the Holy Scriptures and I shall not scruple to tell you that it is expresly the same with which the Roman Office of the Mass beginneth and yet we have had the good luck never to be censur'd as Popishly affected upon this account and in the next place they proceed to exhort and invite the People to accompany them to the Throne of the heavenly Grace repeating after them a Confession of Sins in substance much the same with that in the English Liturgy E. D. But your Ministers did not reade these Prayers out of a Book as the scandalous and lazy Clergy here in England do F. P. I find you make it your business to affront our Clergy at every turn and suppose the most abusive and scurrilous Language to be good enough for them yet question much whether you would take it well to be paid in the same coin however I cannot but tell you my thoughts which incline me to believe you have learned these ill manners from your own Minister E. D. What I hope you will not accuse our Minister of being unmannerly For I dare say he is as courteous and civil as affable and obliging and in a word as much a Gentleman as any Man I know of F. P. He shewed himself to be so indeed when the other day being in his Pulpit thought fit to interrupt the series of his discourse to give the lye to a person entring into the Meeting who it seems had reported something as he conceiv'd to his disadvantage E. D. Ay this is a fine story forg'd at pleasure by some of your Clergy-men to expose and make our Ministers odious F. P. 'T is so far from being a story that I am ready to justifie the truth of it by many credible Ear-witnesses But to return to the matter in hand though first I must tell you in answer to your question that our French Ministers always use their Books in repeating of their Common-prayer reading it word by word and yet have been so happy as to escape the Censure of being either scandalous or lazy upon that account E. D. I onely ask you this question by the bye But let us see what follows F. P. After the Confession which is the last thing we have spoke of follows the Absolution wherein the Minister declares and pronounces to all those that truly repent and unfeignedly believe the holy Gospel the Absolution of their sins and no doubt supposing our Confession to have been sincere and hearty the Minister has good reason to declare our Sins are absolved upon these two Evangelical conditions of Faith and Repentance But to the end no scruple may be left in this matter be pleas'd to observe that the Minister doth not here Absolve in his own name but publisheth a Pardon in Nomine Domini in the Name and Authority of the Lord God He doth not say I but He pardoneth c. E. D. This Form of Absolution as being onely declaratory may pass well enough for as I understand it now the Minister onely declares that Pardon may be had and on what terms All this may be born with and therefore you may go on F. P. The lord's-Lord's-prayer follows next and that if I be not greatly mistaken very properly First because having hitherto prepared our selves by Confession and Absolution we may now more freely take the boldness to call God our Father and address our selves to him in that perfect Form of Prayer which his Beloved Son has taught us Secondly the Lord's-prayer being the ground-work and foundation on which all our Prayers and Petitions should be built we can never do better than to begin our Prayers with this which was composed by the onely begotten Son of God and indited by Wisdom it self to be a pattern and model to all our Devotions E. D. But you cannot say that you make use of the Lord's-prayer in the first place and before your other Petitions since you have already used several before it F. P. Whatsoever has been hitherto performed either by Minister or People is rather a Preparation for Prayer than Prayer it self for if you E. D. You need say no more for indeed it is no great matter whether you use it first or last the Question onely is whether it ought to be us'd at all I own it to be a matter of great moment which therefore ought not to be rashly determin'd though for my part I am more inclinable to take it as a directory for the matter of our Prayer than for a Form and the rather because one of the Evangelists seems to intimate as much by ushering in the lord's-Lord's-prayer with these words of our Saviour After this manner therefore pray ye Luke 6. v. 9. F. P. I fear your Minister is not so cautious as you are in this matter for in some of his Sermons he hath if not rashly at least very positively asserted that the Lord's-prayer is not to be used as a Form of Prayer but onely as a Direction and consequently takes great care not to make use of it in his Meeting though as I have been informed from very credible hands he useth it in his Family-prayers but how to reconcile P with B in this case P when he is in his Meeting and B when he is at home I leave to your consideration I onely wish there be not some worldly interest at the bottom that sways him And as for what you alledge that one of the Evangelists saith after this manner c. I answer that these words do not forbid or oppose the using of it as a Form or the repeating of it in the self-same words for he that repeats the same words saith after this manner though every one that saith after this manner do not always repeat the same words So that he who saith the very words themselves hath two Evangelists to warrant and justifie him whereas he that does not hath but one I shall onely add that the Lord's-prayer is used by the Church of Christ all the World over and it cannot but be very comfortable and beneficial to us to bear a part in this great and Universal Consort E. D. But suppose I should grant you that the Lord's-prayer may be us'd in the Morning yet you cannot but allow me that it ought not to be us'd at Night because it is ridiculous to beg our daily Bread of God when we have eaten our Supper and are ready to
never have produc'd this Argument to condemn the practice of our Church True it is that it was the custome of the Jews to sing by turns and answer one another but you never observed that this was a privilege granted to the Priests and Levites onely now this Argument of yours plainly justifies the order of our Church for if the Priests and Levites under the Old Law had the Prerogative of bearing a part in offering up the publick Prayers and Praises none can deny but that Christians both Ministers and People have the same if not a greater privilege forasmuch as every true Christian is a Priest and that of a higher order than those under the Old Law for if we will believe St. Peter 1 Ep. chap. 2. vers 9. We are a chosen Generation a royal Priesthood and John Revel 1.6 declares that Jesus Christ has made us Kings and Priests unto God E. D. I perceive then you take it to be a great honour or privilege for Christians to have leave to answer their Ministers and to have a share with them in repeating the publick Prayers F. P. I do so and have great reason for it too E. D. I know well that you Church-men both Ministers and People are very ambitious of honour but this is not the thing we must look for especially in our Prayers but rather edification and benefit now what benefit can you propound to your self from this answering of your Minister and pronouncing some part of the publick Prayers F. P. The benefit which thereby accrews to us is very considerable for by this means we do not onely express our full consent to all the Minister's Prayers without which we cannot reasonably expect any advantage from them but besides by this method of our Church we captivate the Peoples attention restrain their vain and rambling thoughts and oblige them to be attentive to what the Minister saith that they may be ready to return the proper Responsals Whereas when the People bear no share in the Divine Service and have no part to act in it they are more at leisure to entertain vain and frivolous fancies and too too often profane and lascivious thoughts come in flocks to devour their Sacrifice and to tell you my mind plainly I take it that the neglect of these Responsals is the true cause of so much inadvertency lazy postures and drowziness as now commonly discover themselves in those who frequent the House of God and appear in his presence whom the holy Angels adore with veiled faces which as it is a dishonour to God and a discouragement to the Minister so it is of great prejudice to their own Souls Now to put the question to your self you cannot deny me but that way of Praying which most engageth our attention is the best and therefore ought to be preferred before any other and it is evident beyond dispute that that way of Praying where the People bear a part and answer in their course is the most proper to make them attentive and heedfull to the Work they are about and therefore I leave you to judge how commendable the Practice of our Church is in this regard E. D. We shall by and by have a further opportunity of speaking to this particular wherefore you may now proceed if you please F. P. After the short Prayers and Responsals now mentioned follows the Doxology Glory be to the Father and to the Son c. which is both a sound Form of praising and glorifying the eternal and tri-une God Father Son and Holy Ghost and a short Creed or Confession of our Faith concerning the Trinity in Unity And if you demand of me why it is placed here in the close of the Penitential part of our Prayers I answer Because having before confessed our Sins and humbly entreated mercy and remission for them and being now in full hope that our mercifull Father has graciously heard and granted our requests we immediately change our Prayers into Praises and our Supplications into Thanksgivings and with transports of Joy and Gratitude we sound forth our Glory be to the Father for it is he who pardons our Sins and to the Son because 't is for his sake they are pardoned and to the Holy Ghost who alone assures us thereof And the Minister afterwards as if this were not enough because in the Gloria Patri we more particularly worship the Trinity in Unity and not the Unity in Trinity calls upon the People again to adore the Unity saying Praise ye the Lord to which the People answer The Lord's Name be praised which words contain the Christian Hallelujahs or Songs of praise and triumph for the absolution and remission of their Sins or else if you will you may take them for a Preface or Entrance to the Reading of the Psalms E. D. You may take them for what you please as for my part I don't concern my self about them and therefore you may go on F. P. In the Morning Service the Psalms are ushered in with the Venite O come let us sing unto the Lord c. as being an Exhortatory Psalm whereby we continue mutually to invite and encourage each other worthily to adore and worship the Eternal God And that this Psalm is very well placed here appears first Because by it we are informed what we are to doe and secondly how we ought to behave our selves in the performance of the succeeding Offices or Duties The former of these viz. what we are to doe we have in these words Sing unto the Lord Come before his presence Serve and worship him and lastly Hear his Voice or his most Holy Word The latter How we are to perform these Duties is thus express'd We are to sing unto the Lord heartily rejoicing in the strength of our salvation to come before his presence with thanksgiving with a gratefull sense and humble acknowledgment of all his Benefits serve and worship him with all becoming Reverence and Veneration falling down on our faces and kneeling before the Lord our Maker not hardning our hearts when we hear his voice but receiving it with Faith and Obedience And thus we proceed to the Psalms appointed for the day the Church having ordered them to be read over once every Month. E. D. Pray tell me the reason why they are appointed to be read oftner than any other part of Holy Scripture F. P. Because they are most accommodated for Prayer and Devotion and consequently of a more continual use than any other part of God's Word The ignorant will find here profitable instruction and information the wicked earnest exhortations and severe warnings the poor and afflicted will meet with su-table Prayers and Petitions to beg the good things they want as well as to deprecate the evils they groan under and the rich and prosperous will be furnish'd with Thanksgivings and joyfull Songs of Praise Indeed the whole contexture of them shews them to be fitted and suited to all persons in all circumstances
Faith receive the Word of God read to us or as St. Luke phraseth it Chap. 11.28 When we hear the Word of God and keep it we do conceive Christ by Faith for according to St. Paul's doctrine Gal. 4.19 't is by hearing and keeping the Word of God that Christ is formed in us not Carnally but Spiritually Wherefore we are as much obliged after a due hearing of God's Word to break forth into a holy Magnificat My Soul doth magnifie the Lord because Christ is formed in us spiritually as the Blessed Virgin was because Christ was formed in her according to the Flesh And as to your second Objection I might tell you that this Hymn of Old Simeon is frequently us'd in our French Protestant Churches as being commonly sung every Lord's-day but if this Authority do not satisfie you I shall give you a reason why the Church of England after the reading of the second Lesson at Evening-prayer orders the rehearsing the Song of this Blessed Man for though indeed in the reading of the New Testament we do not behold Christ with our bodily Eyes as Simeon did yet may we with the spiritual Eyes of our Faith see that Salvation he then saw and that more clearly because it is now more fully manifested and therefore upon this account we have the same reason to say with him Lord now lettest thou thy servant to depart in peace for mine Eyes have seen thy Salvation c. E. D. I perceive you have a peculiar way of applying the Scriptures to your selves But let us examine what is next F. P. The next thing that follows is the Confession of our Faith commonly called the Apostle's Creed E. D. But I suppose you do not believe the Apostles made it F. P. Though strong and convincing Arguments might be alledged to prove them the Inditers or Composers of it yet I am resolved at present not to differ with you about it and the rather because I am sure you will agree with me that as long as it comprehends nothing but what the Apostles have taught us to believe and believed themselves it may very well of just right be called the Apostle's Creed E. D. But what particular reason hath your Church to place it after the Lessons F. P. Because having heard some Chapters out of the Word of God read to us it is but fit that we now make a publick profession of our Belief of the main and sundamental Truths therein contained which cannot be better done than by repeating the Articles of the Apostle's Creed which is not onely a Compendium of the Gospel but of all Holy Writ E. D. But why is it you repeat it so often twice a day at least Morning and Evening F. P. Truly it can never be repeated too often and I am sure our French Protestants thought so whose Example if it should not convince you I hope the following Reasons may because it serves to express our Loyalty to God and our Vnity among our selves and with the Catholick Church it is a Touch-stone to discover whether we continue in the number of Christ's Disciples and in Unity and Concord with one another it is our Watch-word our Badge Mark and Character whereby we may distinguish Frends from Foes true Believers from Infidels and Hereticks and therefore as was said before it cannot be too often repeated But before we proceed further we may here take notice that upon certain Festival-days the Athanasian Creed is read instead of that of the Apostle's E. D. Is there any thing more in the Athanasian Creed than in that of the Apostles's F. P. Onely this that in the Athanasian Cree the Mysteries of the most Blessed Trinity and of the Incarnation of the Son of God are more at large esserted explained and unfolded and that in the most sound plain and perspicuous terms those sublime an incomprehensible Mysteries are capable of After which we proceed to this devour hearty and mutual Salutation of the Minister and the People the Minister saying The Lord be with you and the People answering And with thy Spirit E. D. For my part I cannot approve of the Minister and People thus saluting one another because it looks too much like Compliment which though perhaps it may agree very well with your French humour yet is not at all agreeable to mine F. P. If you 'll quarrel at this you must quarrel with the Word of God and with the language of the Holy Ghost in Scripture for most certain it is that this Salutation is taken thence viz. what the Minister saith out of the Book of Ruth 2.4 and used by St. Paul 2 Thess 3.16 and what the People answer out of the Epistle to the Galat. 6.18 Which words whether consider'd in themselves or with respect to the end they are design'd for are of exceeding great and good use for now we are entring upon a new part of Divine Service viz. that of Prayer but seeing that wthout God's aid an assistance it is impossible either for Minister or People to acquit themselves rightly of this duty which is of so great concern to the whole Congregation Minister as well as People wherefore they begin by praying each for other humbly supplicating God to assist them in their present undertaking the Minister beginning with this short Prayer for the People The Lord be with you lifting up your Hearts and raising your Devoitions that my Prayers may not be in vain for you and the People in acknowledgment of the Minister's hearty good will and as being themselves extreamly concern'd in the work he is about answer his Prayer with this good wish And with thy Spirit to the end your Prayers may be so fervent that you and we may reap the fruit and benefit of those Petitions you are now going to offer up to God for the whole Congregation And having thus both Minister and People implored the Divine Presence and Assistance in the great Work we are entring upon we do next in a most humble and solemn manner address our selves to each Person of the most Blessed Trinity to have Mercy upon us viz. that our Sins and Transgressions may not hinder our Prayers and Petitions from being graciously received and accepted at the Trone of Grance saying Lord have mercy upon us Christ have mercy upon us Lord have mercy upon us After which we address our selves to God in that excellent Form of Prayer our Saviour hath taught us E. D. But me-thinks forsmuch as you have used this Prayer already that the reiterating of it must needs be accounted a vain repetition condemned by our Saviour in Matth. 6.6 F. P. True it is that our Church has appointed te Lord's-prayer to be used more than once in our Liturgy but that the reiterating of it cannot come under the lash of those vain repetitions forbid by our Saviour will appear if you consider that wer repeat it onely in each distinct Service of the Church before we made use of it