carnall wisdome loding him and the faithfull with opprobrious titles It is to no purpose that I should answer againe with words but when men shall once see throughlie into the fowlnes and dangers of Browâ—isme and what filthie geare they spread abroade they will thâ—nke it requisite and necessarie to call a spade a spade Donatisme must bee called Donatisme schisme must bee called schisme and heresies and fantasies must haue their due titles And now touching the defence he maketh it is nothing but certaine ragges which he peeceth together to couer his nakednes which also must be plucked from him It seemeth he doth trust to the ignorance or rashnes of some which either cannot or will not examine things aright God is a spirit to be worshipped in spirit I did do coÌ„fesse y t this scripture doth cut downe all carnall worship as disagreeing from the nature of God therefore may most fitlie be alleaged against such as shall maintaine that the verie bodilie action in reading is the worship of God But it is friuolous to applie it against praying after a prescript forme seeing a man may vpon a booke pray reading or after a prescript forme with sighes and groanes which procéed of faith Master Greenewood termeth this a bodilie distinction Doubtles if it be a bodilie distinction to affirme that the verie bodilie action of reading a prayer is not the worship of God which we maintaine against the Papists in their lippe labour I knowe not what Master Greenwood will allowe to bee spirituall What manner of spirit is his But now that he will put away all my distinctions by his affirming still for those bee his wordes and what Euen the whole matter in question betweene vs who cannot see what a valiant champion he is for how falselie he saith he hath prooued shall appeare Then hauing stoutlie affirmed that which is in question he saith and yet say you to applie this scripture thus against read prayer is friuolous How commeth in this word yet Doth it follow that I do not well in saying so notwithstanding you affirme the contrarie but you haue a reason of great force which is in these words I appeale to all mens consciences for the waight thereof Shall the consciences of all men bee made iudge whether that scripture bee rightlie applied Nay I appeale from the consciences of the Brownists Now in the next words where I affirmed that a man may pray by the Spirite of GOD with sighes and groanes vpon a booke or when he prayeth after a prescript forme and therefore the application of that scripture is friuolous his shiftes are as slender For touching this clause that I say or after a prescript forme he saith I goe about to alter the question at the first steppe For as much as all our prayers ought to be vttered after a prescript forme euen that perfect rule and forme our Sauiour gaue to his disciples and all posterities A great peece of work By vttering after a prescript forme I meane when a man hath learned a prayer eyther of the scripture or framed from thence and can vtter it without the booke as it is written And whereas it can not be denied but that many do pray feruentlie with sighes and grones and teares which reade the prayer vpon the booke or haue it as we vse to say by hart He answereth that I begge the question If a man do proue the cause by the effects which I doe heere it is no begging of the question but a firme proofe Where any thing is burnt there hath beene fire Where there be sighes and grones in prayer with inward comfort there is faith there is Gods spirit but these are in some that reade their prayers vpon the booke or vse prescript forme Maister Greenewood thinketh he hath disputed subtillie and couered himselfe when he can say ye alter the question ye begge the question ye assume the question Nowe touching the defence of his reasons he brought If those sighes and grones saith he were of faith that would minister matter of prayer without a booke This reason as I sayd is by connection drawne from the force and effect of faith and to make it strong and good I said these two things must be added y t faith needeth no outward helpe to minister matter of prayer and that it can not stande or be ioyned with any outward helpes which I said are both hereticall He saith he will lay the wordes againe before me if peraduenture I may haue grace to call my selfe backe I looke vpon them againe and although I did not two yeares as you vainely imagine nor yet two daies consider of that one saying yet can I not call my selfe back vnlesse I be conuinced with the light of truth and that ye say I shal be and will so confirme your sayings by scriptures that no peruerted spirit shal be able to gainesay or resist If the sighes and grones were of faith that would minister matter without a booke for the scripture ye affirme teacheth euerie where that in praying the spirit onely helpeth our infirmities no other helpes mentioned or can be collected in the present action of praier through the scripture He hath seÌ„t into our harts the spirit of his sonne crying Abba father wee beleeue therefore we speake From hence now Maister Greenewood concludeth that I haue erred and from an idle braine godles heart haue coined those heresies because I constraine the proposition of the present action in praying vnto a generall sentence of all times and actions This is the summe of your answere that before prayer there neede helpes and outward meanes but in the present action of prayer onely the spirit doth helpe let vs see howe true this is and how it dooth excuse yee from those hereticall opinions which ye goe about to wipe away with this distinction First whereas yee say that in the verie time and action of prayer it is the spirit alone without any outward means because the scripture saith God hath sent into our heartes the spirit of his sonne crying abba Father I answere that howsoeuer the scripture doth extoll or magnifie outwarde helpes and meanes yet when they are compared with God which worketh all in all by them or when the scripture will set foorth the efficacie and worke to be his alone they are either not meÌ„tioned or else if they be meÌ„tioned so cast down as if they were nothing God buildeth his Church by the ministerie of men yet he saith Paule planteth Appollo watereth but God giueth y e increase So that neither he which plaÌ„teth is any thing nor he that watreth but God that giueth the increase 1. Co. 3. And therfore to gather froÌ„ those sentences of scripture where the spirit of God is only mentioned to work praier because the work is his alone y t there neede or there may be no outward helps or meanes in the verie instant and action of praying is farre awrie For I would haue master
the like because the aduerb thus doth signifie the like and not the same But hée rendreth a reason which is that we haue but the summe of their prophesies recorded vnto vs by the holie Ghost and not all the words Because we haue not all the words therefore haue we not the same in those that are set downe Did the holie Ghost vse this word Coh to giue vs to vnderstand that there is written but an abridgement or summe of matters and not the same words that they were vttered in but some such like Againe did the holie Ghost recorde them are they not all his words which are written in the summe of the prophesies set downe Shall we beléeue this man I doo beléeue him in this that he saith the holie Ghost did record them for therein he speaketh the trueth But when he saith that thus saith the Lord is not these same words saith the Lord but the like because thus is an aduerb of likenes it is a vile saying Is not the holie Ghost the Lord If hée had spoken those things before in moe words and now recordeth them in fewer saying thus saith the Lord doth not he speake these fewer words which are written as well as those moe wordes which were vttered Are they not then thus saith the Lord euen the verie same words which the Lord speaketh and not like If ye make many such expositions of words ye may leade me whether ye will There is then another reason rendred to prooue that the Priests were not tied vnto those wordes in blessing the people namely that in prayer they are blessed in the Psalmes and in the Chronicles with many other words And Eli blessed Hanna in other words It is not the question whether at any time the people might bee blessed in other words in fewer or in moe but whether the Priests had not that forme prescribed to vtter in blessing the whole assemblie and whether it were Idolatrie to vse those prescript phrases of wordes As likewise it is not maintained that when our Sauiour saith say thus that wee may not pray in other words or expresse our petitions more particularlie but that we may vse those words and sentences as most excellent petitions Against this Master Greenwood bringeth nothing in his words that followe For Master Caluine neuer held it vnlawful to pray in that forme of words though he teach truelie that men are not so tied vnto it that they may vse none other And therefore it standeth firme and sure that the forme of words in the Lords Prayer is to bee lawfullie vsed praying In the next part Master Greenwood is in a great heate and maketh an outcrie to call men to the beholding of an iniurie which I as he saith as a godles man haue done him Here saith he I must call all men that reade this fruitles discourse to be witnesse c. Indeede ye may well call it a fruitles discourse which ye call men that reade to beare witnesse with ye and let the reader iudge by your exposition of Coh whether it be not worse than fruitlesse which ye spread among the ignorant sort which are readie to sucke in such filthie dregges The abuse of my tongue to the defacing of Gods trueth is that I sayd he calleth all men Idolaters And to make the matter cléere that he spake not the words but I my selfe he maketh a briefe repetition how we fell into that matter But before we procéede any further I pray ye tell me what is the reason that I hauing set downe your whole discourse touching this poynt so that you cannot denie but that I haue also set it downe truely you forsake that and set downe by péece meale but some of your words and reason from them If I had ment in a godles manner wilfully to peruert your words would I haue deliuered them whole and together in print It seemeth ye haue some hope that some men will reade your booke which will not compare it with mine or which being carried with blind heate cannot Now I craue no more of the reader but to marke the whole speach which you deliuered and mine answere to it and to iudge indifferently If Master Greenwoods words bee not such as must needes include that which I haue collected let me beare the blame for that matter which is one of the least He saith I haue an euasion to auoide this foyle because I sayd I tooke it we reasoned about such grosse Idolatrie as a Church is to bee condemned and forsaken for which is defiled therewith He saith he neuer reasoned to that end in this whole discourse And I say then he must go from his owne words which affirme that read prayer offered vp to GOD as a sacrifice is Idolatrie that to reade the prayer while one praieth is a chaunging the worke of the spirit into an Idoll a bondage and breaking of Christian libertie a thing most detestable a deuice of Antichrist Let all men iudge by these speaches what manner of Idolatrie was in question betweene vs. Master Greenwood as if he had wonne the field will needs put me to my raunsome and asketh what mends I will make him for this slandering I answer that as your victorie is but in a dreame so my raunsome must be therafter If I could sée I had done ye wrong I would be sorie Ye will haue no man free from such foule Idolatrie but yet no Idolaters No Church is free ye confesse from all spot vpon earth Hereupon ye growe againe into a newe heate and charge me out of one mouth to giue contrarie sentence because I call ye Donatists Why man are ye ignorant of this that the Donatists did confesse all men to bee sinners and yet the arguments by which they would maintaine their schisme could not bee strong vnlesse they would maintaine a perfection and some of their reasons though they ment not so reached so farre And so is it with you Brownists If one should followe ye in all the grosse absurdities which will followe from your exposition of Coh thus saith the Lord could you haue any way but to protest ye did meane no such thing Wee may not looke what men protest they hold but what doth followe of their reasons and then ye shall see that such as be in schisme and heresie are with the blasts of their swelling pride tossed and hurled vpon contrarie Rockes Now whereas I sayd the confession of the Brownists that there is no Church in earth without spottes of Idolatrie doth ouerthrowe the reasons which they bring to condemne the Church of England Because they cannot argue thus this is a fault it is Idolatrie therefore this or that assemblie which is spotted is no true Church But they must prooue the Idolatrie to bee such as destroyeth the faith c. Master Greenwood would beare men in hand that I reason as simplie as to say if there bée no true Church in earth without spots then the Church of
to the Scriptures then by that commaundement all are to bee brought in that be agreeable If there be no commandement then none are to be brought in I answere that God hath commaunded that in the Church all thinges bee done for edification now the prayers being the same being holy good are of like maiestie dignitie in thēselues vttred by him that conceaueth them or from a prescript forme the matter resteth not in that but in the faith and feruencie of those that pray there be errours and imperfections as well in the one as in the other but to auoide inconuenience and for the benefite of the simpler sort a prescript forme is needefull so farre commaunded Then see how friuolous this conclusion is that so all mens writinges which are thought to be agreeable to the word are to bee brought in seeing that which is conuenient in some is not conuenient in all His reasons which follow are in effect all one with the former and prooue not that conclusion of his to shut foorth the prescript forme of prayer Let the Brownist now set the word Apocripha aside which is but a woord and not of the Scriptures and go to the matter it selfe drawing by firme conclusion that nothing is to be allowed any place in the Church which is not the perfect rule it selfe in writing or without errours vttred in speech and I will yéelde But this shall all the Brownistes in the world be neuer able to do as I haue sufficiently shewed before What then or where is his glorie and victorie which he boasteth off to be such that hee needeth to proceede no further But nowe I woulde haue the reader to vnderstande my meaning aright and how I argue least any should thinke I compare the hauing the Bible in a translation and the prayers and Sermons of the Pastors with the prescribed forme of prayer to be of but equall or like necessitie The summe of that I set downe is to this effect that it is false which Maister Greenewood standeth to prooue namely that nothing with errour in it is to bee brought into the publicke assemblies seeing there is a necessitie of hauing the scriptures in a translation there is also a necessitie of hauing the sermons and Prayers of the Ministers and yet errours in both that which is of necessitie to be had may not bee cast foorth because of imperfections and errours then also prescript forme of prayers though not of necessitie yet for conueniencie vnto edification is not to be cast foorth because of imperfections being not to increase but to diminish the errours in praying The next argument is this Wee must doe nothing in the worship of God without warrant of his word Read prayers haue no warrant of his woorde How false this assumption is namely That to reade a prayer when one doth pray or to followe a prescript forme hath no warrant in Gods woord I haue shewed by sundrie scriptures and reasons and answered al the shifts brought against them for which I referre the Reader to my former booke Maister Greenewood pressed with the waight of truth and finding he had vttred grosse matter could be content but that as he saith to answere vnconscionable slaunders to stay in the first argument as hauing wonne the field but yet he goeth on and by vaine shiftes wil doe as well as he can to couer his fault First he accuseth me that not hauing answered one reason I haue with much euill conscience as the handling sheweth peruerted them saying hee will leaue them to be iudged of them that shall see his writing and seeing I would not Print it he will answere my chief obiections Touching this I answere that your words are manie and I esteemed it a weariesome matter to write them all accounting it sufficient to note your reasons but looke whatsoeuer ye complayne off that I haue peruerted and done ye wrong in ye shall haue them in those pointes fully and wholy deliuered that all the worlde may see and iudge betweene vs whether I haue wilfully and vnconscionably and as a godlesse man as ye accuse me charged ye with any one thing which your words doe not containe Now to proceede to your replie First yee say that I graunt your Argument is sounde if yee put difference between reading vpon the booke and that which one hath learned out of the booke For by your owne confession say you God hath not giuen any commandement to read prayer and so it hath no warrant Hereupon yee charge mee that as an vnconstant man I call back againe that which I had graunted I saide I did not remember that euer I did read in the holie Scriptures that God commandeth the prayer shall bee read vpon the Booke If I haue called now to remembrance where it is reade It were no vnconstancie to say now there is commaundement But in deede I doe not remember I haue euer reade any such commaundement But now you boast of your gaines by this confession saying that I graunt then there is no warrant Lay all my words together and yee may put your gaine in your eye and see neuer the worse I set downe first of all that it is great audatitie to affirme that there is no warrant of the word for read prayer seeing there be sundrie testimonies to warrant the same as I haue shewed for the Lord prescribed a forme of blessing and commaunded the Priests so to blesse Num. 6. He prescribed a forme of prayer for the people at the offering the first fruites and cōmaunded thē to vse it Deutr. 26 The Psalme for the sabaoth was commaunded to bee song the Psalme 22. was to bee song euerie morning and these they were tied vnto by expresse commaundement though not to the booke because it is more commendable to haue them by heart And the Lorde dooth not tye a man to that which is lesse cōmendable This is the summe of that reason which I vsed from whence there is warrant to followe a prescript forme Master Greenewood vrgeth this if there be no commaundement then there is no warrant and affirmeth it to bee inconstancie to say there is no commaundement to reade praying and yet some warrant for it by the word I haue answered that God tied the Priests and people vnto some prescript formes though not preciselie to the booke And though that were legall and no such commandement to tie men of necessitie now yet it sheweth the thing to be holie and lawfull Further I adde if wee respect the matter as we say in the These or for a generalty there is no commandement for then it should bee of necessitie and not for conueniencie But if we regarde it in the Hypothese for circumstances in particularitie there is commaundement as thus God hath commaunded those thinges too bee done which serue as helpes for edification or be most conueuient Then where the state of anie man or the state of the assemblies is such as that prescript forme
of prayer is conuenient and needefull for edification there it is commanded Now let the reader obserue againe your words which are that al our ministers must leaue reading their stincted praiers vpon the booke or else stand vnder Gods wrath and all that so praye with them Master Greenewood complaineth of great iniury wheÌ„ I gather from his words that he condemneth all Churches because hee knoweth that is a matter sufficient alone to bewray the wickednes of Brownisme Now if all our Ministers which pray vpon the booke and the people that pray with them stand vnder the wrath of God for this thing then cannot they be the Church of God for GOD loueth his Church and all Churches haue prescript formes of prayer which their Ministers vse therfore they all stand vnder Gods wrath But they doo it ignorantlie will he say and so say I did all our Churches vntill his papers came abroad and manie haue not as yet seene them and some that haue seene them are not perswaded and so are ignorant still The next thing ye deale with is the Argument which I drawe from the singing Psalmes vpon the booke it is so cleere they did sing them vpon the booke that the Brownist himselfe cannot denie it It is also most manifest they did sing them as hee also now confesseth to God for so are we commaunded in many places sing praises to God Then further he that offereth vp praise to God reading it cannot be gainsaide but that he offereth vp a spirituall sacrifice to God reading Yea praise is one parte of prayer and it is as hard a thing to speake praises to God vpon the booke as to craue by petitions vpon the booke and as spirituall a worke and I may say a more high seruice where is then that grosse fantasie of Master Greenewood which because reading is one thing and speaking to God is another saith a man cannot both read and speake to God at once He cannot say O my God when he readeth but O my booke why art thou so euill printed I argue if the people of God in olde time did both reade the Psalmes vpon the booke and speake vnto the Lord at the same instant how should it not now bee both possible and lawfull for to speake vnto God in praiers while one readeth Hée saieth I denie your Argument I say that is not sufficient to denie the Argument let vs therefore sée the reasons of the deniall Admitte that singing were a part of praier sayeth he yet dooth it not follow that all praier may bee read vpon the booke we must take this vpon your bare word at least such as will may beléeue yée I stand to affirme that one part of praier is as spirituall a worke as another thereupon I also affirme that if one part may bee read vppon the booke and no turning the worke of the spirite into an Idoll no stâ—nting the spirite no quenching the spirit no Idolatrie no hindrance but that hee which readeth may speake vnto God it may be so in any other part And let vs see what hee will bee able to disprooue this withall But hee saieth I speake like an ignorant man to say that singing is praier because they be two diuers actions and exercises of our faith The one neuer read for the other nor saide to be a parte of the other throughout the Scriptures but are plainelie distinguished As I will praye with the Spirite I will pray with vnderstanding I will sing with the spirit I will sing with vnderstanding saith Saint Paul I answer you could no where more vntimelie accuse mee of ignorance then where your owne speech in this and that which followeth next is patched vp with errors almost as thick as the patches vpon a beggars cloake And for answere I say first that Saint Paul dooth distinguish them there is great reason not onelie because the verie singing it selfe is not praier no more then reading or speaking but also that there bee manie praiers which are not song and manie Psalmes and songs which are no formes of praier nor the spéech directed to God a prayer that is no psalme is neuer called a psalme nor any reason why it should but a Psalme that is a praier is called both a Psalme and a praier The Psalme 86. is called Tephillah a praier and consisteth of sundrie petitions The Psalme 90. is so called being the praier of Moses Psalme 102. is called Tephillah leaaui the praier for the poore when hee is in perplexitie and powreth foorth his meditatioÌ„ before the Lord. The people praying for Christs Kingdome did vse to say Hosanna Blessed is he that commeth in the name of the Lord. Psal 118. The Psalme 50. and 119. with many other conta ne petitions almost in euery verse which if a man did pray or desire them earnestly singing it was no Idolatrie singing I graunt is not called praier but men might sing Psalmes to God and were commanded which contained praises and petitions but they were giuen to the Church to be song or read in y e forme of praier saith he but denieth y t this was to be done praying He not only confesseth they were to sing theÌ„ vnto God but also saith the Lord keep me froÌ„ such an error as to denie that yet eueÌ„ in this coÌ„fession falleth into as grose a matter for what can bee more absurd than that a man should vtter and speake euen vnto God that which is a prayer and yet might not pray as when out of the Psalm 118. praying for the kingdome of Christ they cried Hosanna blessed is he that commeth in the name of the Lord or when for some speciall benefite the whole Church was to sing prayse to God and had a prescript forme deliuered vnto them were they to mocke with God and not to speak prayses vnto him indeede from the heart and with chearefulnes or did God commaund them to doe two things which cannot bee done at once or wil any deny that many in singing though the singing it selfe be not praying doe giue hearty thankes to God where thanksgiuing is expressed and craue earnestly when they vtter petitions Master Greenewood doth grieuously complaine of me for doing him foule wrong in saying he denieth that the Psalmes are to be sung to God And what other thing in effect doth he vtter here when hee saith they were not to vtter the wordes of a Psalme to God praying But I willset downe his first words which are these The same may be sayde for the hundreth and second Psalme for although some haue taken it as a prayer of the Prophet when he was in affliction yet may I graunt with you to be taken in the future tense and auoyd that superstition you would fall into for if it had beene giuen vnto the Church to haue beene read as a prayer vnto God it should haue beene saide O Lord heare our prayer and let our crie come vnto thee And therefore it is manifest that
this Psalme was giuen to the Isralites in time of their captiuitie at Babylon or some other such calamitie to comfort and instruct them how to settle themselues and powre foorth their prayers before the Lord. But howe will you prooue that the people were to say ouer these wordes vnto God for wee may see the like by Habbacuc prescribing the people a forme of prayers to comfort themselues and deliuered it to be sung in the assemblies Moreouer after manie other wordes master Greenwood sayth thus And that singing of Psalmes is no part of prayer we may see by the exhortation which the Apostle vseth to the Ephesians saying Speake vnto your selues in Psalmes and Hymnes and spirituall songs And to the Collos where it is sayde Let the word of God dwel in ye plenteously in al wisdome teaching admonishing your selues in psalmes hymnes and spiritual songs And further we reade that Christ our Sauiour did giue thanks and then sing a Psalme after the institution of the Lords Supper for that singing is a reioysing our selues and instructing our selues Now let the reader iudge by comparing that which I haue written in my former booke with these words of his whether I or he be the godles man which dealeth by vnconscionable slaunders and with much euil conscience Master Greenwood denying the vse of prescript forme when wee speake vnto God and I alleadging the Psalmes demandeth how I wil prooue that the people were to say ouer those wordes vnto God And after as you see to prooue that the wordes were not to be vttered or said ouer to God praying he alleageth the sayings of Paule Speaking to your selues and instructing your selues in Psalmes and Hymnes and spirituall songs leauing out in both places the latter ende of the sentence of singing to the Lord. Now when I haue prooued that the verie wordes of some Psalmes were to be said ouer to God because the scripture is cleare in many places Sing Psalmes to God sing prayses to God c. and charged him with denying that the Psalmes are to be sung to God contrarie to such expresse commandement and blamed him for leauing out the parte of the sentence which maketh against him he crieth shame vpon me But master Greenwood it is the light of Gods word and the waight thereof which doth presse ye and cutteth downe all vngodly fantasies and not I. You confesse now because the scripture is plaine that the Psalmes were to be sung to God and yet ye did aske how I would prooue the people were to say ouer the words Then it followeth that the verie prescript forms of wordes were to be saide ouer to God by your confession which is the whole matter that I haue stoode to prooue And now chuse whether you will denie that Psalmes were to be sung to God or confesse that those verie wordes of the Psalmes and the prescript formes were to be said ouer vnto him in singing What will he say now This he will say that they were in those words to be song vnto God but not praying for he saith I must proue the Church did vse to reade the psalmes for praying I wonder how a man can speake to God the sentences which are praiers and not praying Againe I would haue any Brownist shew mee what speach wee can haue to God which is not praier if he say a man dooth speak to God in giuing him thankes and praise in acknowleging his benefites in ascribing vnto him all wisdome power glorie goodnes bountifulnes faithfulnes and mercie A man dooth speake to God when hee confesseth his sinnes when he complaineth of the iniuries and wrongs of others I confesse and I say withall that they be all of them parts of praier Why dooth a man giue thankes and praise and mention Gods benefits but to support his faith and hope that he shall receiue further and to moue the Lord to continue still good vnto him or such like Why doo we speake vnto him of his glorious power wisdome mercie and trueth but that our faith and praier dooth rest vpon those pillers Why doo we confesse our sinnes but as intreating for pardon and what doo we rehearse the vniust outrage of our aduersaries but to procure his iust defence and protection But hee demandeth what this maketh for reading praiers framed by men I answer to the same effect which I haue euer done that this is one of the poorest cauilles that may be among a thousand We reason not about the matter of praiers but about the reading for if the matter bee corrupt and naught the pronouncing or the reading cannot make it better If the matter be erronious it is no more authentick pronounced then read if it be pure and good pronounced the reading cannot hurt it or make it vnpure The reading it selfe is not vnpure when we speake to God for then should not the Psalmes haue béen song vpon the booke vnto him Who is so senceles then as not to sée this conclusion to follow to vtter a prescript forme of words in a Psalme when one speaketh to God is no sinne Therefore to followe a prescript forme of words in any godly praier when one praieth is not sinne for where shall we finde the sinne If it be in following a prescript forme it should haue béen vnlawfull to followe it in the Psalmes If it be in the matter because there bee errors in all mens writings and therefore to bee cast foorth then I say the errors and not the reading is in the fault and for which only there must be the casting forth and so we must cast foorth the praiers of the preachers To his next words I answer that it is not the repeating ouer the same godlie petitions againe euery day that maketh it the sacrifice of fooles but when men doo it of custome without faith and feruent affection for if a man with faith and zeale pray euery day the same praier to God it is acceptable The rest of his words are not worth the repeating and yet he concludeth most falsly that read praier hath no warrant in Gods word The next Argumentis this We may not in the worship of God receiue any tradition which bringerh our libertie into bondage read praier vpon commandement is a tradition that dooth bring our libertie into bondage Against this I opposed that Moses the Prophets and our Sauiour gaue prescript formes of praiers and if the very following a prescript forme imposed by commandement be so detestable a thing how are not they charged with this heinous sinne He answereth that here is a great storme and yet nothing but winde doo ye not know the wind may be so great as to blow downe the house vpon your head especially when the blast of truth commeth against your building which standeth vpon the rotten pillers of errours The counterfaite zeale of Cayphas against the trueth ought not to stay any man from being earnest for the truth But now to the matter your woonted song was
heretofore when such prescript formes were alleadged prooue that those wordes were to be saide ouer to God but now being conuinced and confessing that some Psalmes were song to God and for feare least bidding mee prooue againe that the prescript forme was followed when they spake to GOD I should againe charge ye openly to denie the singing of Psalmes to God which I haue shewed yee doe couertly ye seeke another shift and say your Minor proposition which is that I stand to disprooue speaketh of the reading for praying and not of the forme of prayer This is poore stuffe seeing we reason about prescript forme and reading the same praying I do not say that the reading it selfe is praying but I haue prooued that they went together and whether there were cōmandement to followe the prescript formes or not in the blessing for the Priestes to vse In the prayer prescribed for the people to say at the offring the first fruites and in some of the Psalmes whether it be not also lawful to say the Lords prayer praying let wise men iudge Nowe where as I saide the Brownistes doe condemne all Churches by these three arguments against read prayers Maister Greenewood at this is in no small heate as his speech doth shewe for if hee coulde dippe his words tenne times deeper in gall it appeareth hee woulde not spare I trust saith he your madnesse will appeare vnto all men the poyson of Aspes is vnder your tongue But Maister Greenewood If I haue saide the truth which is iustifiable by your owne speeches your sober minde is not to bee boasted off And if your sentence include all Churches what milke and honie doth flow from vnder your lippes Heere is much a doe this man layeth about him as if he were halfe madde but that he is blindfolde I could not escape some sounde blowes Here he hath vp the begger with his clappe dish and the Priest with his Masse booke canuesing ouer the Paternoster for their bellie Here he saith I breath out my accustomed lies slaunders and raylings calling them Brownists and Donatists here he detesteth Donatus his heresies Browne and the Brownists he saith are ours hee willeth mee to remember who is the Father of such vntruthes when I say they condemne al reformed Churches but because my conscience as hee saith did witnesse I had wrongfullie charged him and for him all true Christians I bring it in by necessarie consequence Now if the heate be any thing past heare a little what I saye shewe that I haue any way slaundred ye or rayled vpon yee in that I haue termed you Brownists and Donatists and let mee haue open shame among all men I haue affirmed that the very pith of all your matter is from Maister Brownes bookes conuince mée therein if yee can I haue now published that Brownisme and Donatisme are all one let any Brownist in the land confute me The theefe will not abide to be so called but will say I defie all theeues doth that cleare him when he liueth by theeuerie what are you the better to say I detest the heresies of Donatus and yet holde all that he helde and know not what ye say nor what the heresies of Donatus were more then doth a post shew openly that ye renounce those thinges I haue noted to bée the furies of the Donatists then yee may crie out that ye are slaundred And now for condemning al Churches will ye denie that which is concluded by necessarie consequence from your words Is that against conscience which is brought in by necessarie consequence Ye would seeme to make light of it in this respect that a multitude is not to bee followed to doo euill when ye condemne all Churches but yet it doth sting ye so neere that by no meanes ye can abide to heare of it Thus I did reason and thus I reason still without any witnesse of conscience against me You affirme prescript formes of prayer brought into the publike assemblies to bée the changing the worke of the spirit into an Idoll a tradition breaking Christian libertie and therefore a thing most detestable a dead letter which doth quench the spirit but all reformed Churches haue prescript forme of prayer imposed therefore yee condemne all Churches I am glad your booke may bee seene of all men that they may iudge the soundnes of that answere by which ye would cleere your selfe Ye cannot goe from your first words they be spread in the hands of so many but ye should shame your selfe Ye replie therefore againe that the true Churches might erre in this and yet remaine Churches of God This is strange that ignorance should excuse men that worship an Idoll in stead of God that take away the Christian libertie from the consciences of men and doo that which is most detestable What doo the Papists more than these or what can they bee charged withall which is worse than that which is most detestable And haue ye not set downe now in this your booke in replying vpon the second Argument that all our Ministers must leaue reading their stinted prayers or else stand vnder Gods wrath and all that pray with them How are the Ministers and people of other Churches priuiledged from standing vnder Gods wrath hauing read prayers imposed leiturgies and as you terme them stinted prayers or tell me are they the Churches of God that stand vnder his wrath Now remember who is the father of lyes Well your meaning was not to condemne the Churches nor to meddle with them Why then doo ye giue such sentence of condemnation which reacheth vnto them Tel me but this is there any Brownist which is a disciple and giueth credite vnto ye in this matter that read prayer is most detestable and that such as ioyne in it stand vnder Gods wrath which yet durst ioyne himselfe or might ioyne himselfe vnto any assemblie in the world euen the most reformed Tell me either you or any other chiefe Brownist will say they may pray with any assembly where they follow a prescript forme If ye dare not say this I meane that ye would counsell men to ioyne with a Church that hath read prayer but say they must reprooue and condemne it and if it were not redressed forsake them then bee also ashamed so furiouslie to crie out vpon me which speake nothing herein that I say ye condemne all churches but that which all indifferent men must néedes sée your owne wordes and doctrine doe vpholde As for your bitter accusations vpon no shewe I leaue them and whereas ye require that if I haue any sparkle of grace I would procure that ye might decide the trueth with other Churches I answere that if ye had any sparke of sober wisdome ye could not with such condition lay that vpon me which ye knowe not howe vnable I am to performe You say you might iustly be called an Anabaptist if you shoulde reason thus Imposing of mens writings to be read for praying is an heinous
there were three Arguments of Maister Greenewoods which I answered at once by denying the assumptions and shewing the reasons that moueth me for in déede he setteth downe some propositions and out of them affirmeth that which is false and so concludeth from thence another falsehood It is his whole manner of reasoning if I set downe this proposition God is a spirit it is most true if I will now make such an assumption as this a bodelie substance cannot worship a spirite this being most false there will followe a false conclusion which is that no man can worship God in bodie he is now therefore to proue his assumptions and before he commeth to it he crieth out stay and wonder they are blinde and make blinde Who be blinde and make blinde the Brownists This man hath some great thing in his minde which hee séeth and dooth wonder and now calleth vpon all other to stay vntill hee hath vttered it and so to wonder with him Is there anie doctrine more spirituall saieth hee any more inculcated by the holie Ghost then this accesse to God in the mediation of Christ c. I answer who dooth doubt of this You confesse I will say the propositions bee true and waightie matters which I doo in deed and thereby doo acknowledge that praier is a spirituall and Heauenlie thing farre from the power of man to performe of himselfe Now Master Greenewood confessing I doo this like as a great waue of the Sea commeth rowling and dooth in shâ—w threaten to ouerwhelme all but sodainelie falleth of it selfe So he swelling with the winde of his vanitie crieth out stay and wonder as if I should be ouer whelmed with the streame of his words and by and by falleth of himselfe confessing that I allow the propositions which in déede include the excellencie of praier and there is an end of his wonder The first assumption hee must prooue is that to reade vpon the booke when one prayeth is a quenching the spirite for this he alleageth the saying of Saint Paul Quench not the Spirite when he hath set downe this he addeth that to suppresse and leaue vnuttered the passions of our own heart by the work of the Spirite giuing vs cause of praier and in steed thereof to reade another mans writing he dooth not doubt will be founde and iudged of all that haue spirituall eyes to see a quenching of that grace I answer to this that the spéeches of the Scripture are most fit to vtter our passions by And what haue yee brought but the matter in question If wee respect such as be not able so well to vtter the spirituall eyes to sée and iudge that to bee a quenching of the Spirite are but the eyes of Brownists Therefore all his beggarlie cauils which follow and which haue been answered before are to be let passe as they come The second assumption to bee prooued is that it is presumptuous ignorance to come with a booke This is a lame sacrifice because a man dooth knowe how to doe better and doth not stil he would haue that graunted which is denied For I say the booke is to helpe men to doo the better which are in themselues dull and full of wants and without helpe should rather offer a lame sacrifice The third is for striuing in praier for which when hee hath spoken much of this striuing which is not denied for continuance and importunacie he imagineth that the whole matter is prooued for this as hee would make vs beléeue cannot bee effected vnles the Priest reade till he sweate againe with vaine repetitions I might followe with many words in these and the rest but séeing he hath confessed that the Psalmes were to bee sung vnto God let him shew how the verie reading then can bée so grieuous a thing for this the reader must consider that our question is not about the matter of prayer nor any corruption by vaine repetitions or otherwise nor about the hypocrisie and vaine babling of such as pray but of fashion but simplie of the reading when one prayeth which vntill he can prooue that diuers Psalmes either were not vttered to God as praier or that they did not reade them when they did sing he prooueth nothing but deceiueth the simple with the sight of true things which he spreadeth and from which he draweth foorth such false conclusions I leaue to the reader but to compare his answeres he maketh to the rest touching these arguments and see if they make any thing for uim and not rather against him The next Argument is that We must pray as necessitie requireth but stinted praiers cannot be as necessitie requireth Whereas I affirmed that there be things necessarie to be prayed for at all times and of all men which indéed are the most things which wée are to begge of the Lord. Of these there may bee prescript formes for all times and for other things that fall out sildome the praier is to be applied to the time and necessitie Here are large discourses and such as this Replier dooth much please himselfe in as a most spiritual man This I take to be the drift of the whole that in praying to GOD wee must come with féeling our wants that so we may pray earnestlie which I doo yéeld vnto as an vndoubted trueth He holdeth it as a great absurditie that we should want the same thing to morrow which wee doo to day or that all congregations should néed the same one day which they doo another Hee is most foolish in this and such like obiections for if I should stand to followe particulars there bee fewe things which we may not either for our selues or for our brethren at all assemblies begge of the Lord. If there be speciall necessities they are to be supplied The matter is cléere I will not spend time about it more than I haue in my former booke But whereas the Brownist doth obiect that a prescript forme doth shewe that men take vpon them to knowe mens secrets which God alone doth knowe it is most vaine and friuolous The Scriptures doo shewe that we all stand in neede of the same thinges and euermore being sicke of one disease though there may be some particular cases wherein some haue their seuerall neede And let him answer me now vnto this poynt There be fiue or sixe hundred in one flock which come together to pray if it be as you would beare vs in hand that there is such a variablenes in our needes that to day our necessitie requireth one thing to morrowe another then euery particular man and woman hath seuerall wants and is to pray for no more than they come with present feeling off how then shall the Minister frame his praier to fit them all One shall say this pertaineth not to me how shall I pray Another shall say this or that toucheth not my estate Many shal complaine that their seueral wants are not touched Tell me Ma. Greenwood or any Brownist doth
alijs extiterint aut introductae sint de eo simpliciores laborare non debent neque hoc mouâ—ri aut perturbari sed quia bonae sunt ijs ad bonum vti Wherefore those rites and those good ceremonies ought onelie to bee kept which among the people of Christ doo edifie the onelie and true faith and the sincere worship of God concord charitie and the true and Christian or religious peace Therefore whether they bee exstant or brought in by the Bishops or by the Counsels Ecclesiasticall or by other authors whatsoeuer the simpler sort are not to trouble themselues about that neither with this to bee mooued or disquieted but because they bee good to vse them vnto that which is good And a little after Et quanquam nostri non omnes ritus aequè seruant cum alijs Ecclesijs id quod fieri non potest non est necesse fieri vt omnibus in locis Christianorum conuentuum vnae eadem ceremoniae vsurpentur non tamen vlli bonae piae constitutioni repugnant seseuè opponunt neque ita animati sunt vt ceremoniarum causa dissidia vlla commouere velint etiamsi aliquae non admodum necessariae esse iudicarentur modò Deo cultui atque gloriae huius non reperiantur contrariae quae veram in Iesum Christum fidem quae sola iustitiam conciliat non diminuant That is to say And although our men do not equallie obserue all rites with other Churches a thing which both cannot bee done and is not necessarie to bee done that in all places of the christian assemblies one and the same ceremonies should bee vsed yet they doo not repugne anie good constitution or oppose themselues neither are they so minded as that for the cause of ceremonies they will moue anie dissentions although some might be iudged to be not altogether necessarie so that they be not founde contrarie to God to his worship and glorie and which diminish not the true faith in Iesus Christ which onelie dooth iustifie Againe a little after Docentur hoc agnoscere homines traditiones humanas non complecti legem perpetuam immutabilem sed quemadmodum iustis de causis ab â—â—minibus instituuntur ita etiam iustis grauibus de causis re ita postulante violari abrogari atque mutari sine vllo peccato posse That is Men are taught also to acknowledge this that humane traditions doo not conteine a perpetuall lawe and vnchangeable but as for iust causes they are ordeined by meÌ„ so also for iust waightie causes the matter so requiring they may be violated abrogated and changed without offending The Augustine coÌ„fession Quaerat igitur aliquis an vitam hanc hominuÌ„ sine ordine sine ritibus esse velimus nequaquaÌ„ sed docemus pastores veros Ecclesiarum posse in Ecclesijs suis publicos ritus instituere That is Some maÌ„ theÌ„ may demand whether we would haue this life of men to be without order without ceremonies In no wise But we teach that the true pastors of the churches may in their churches ordeine publique rites or ceremonies I might set downe to the same effect out of the confessions of the other reformed Churches but I will omit it as not necessarie and onely note a fewe things out of Master Beza his Epistles After he hath set downe Epist 24. that things indifferent are so called not that men may without exception doo or leaue vndone as often as they lust and as it shall please them and not sinne but that they are so called because a man may vse and not vse them well and hee may vse them and not vse them euill And moreouer that things indifferent by themselues or otherwise doo after a sort change their nature when by some lawfull commaundement they are either commaunded or forbidden And further that the vse of them is generallie restrained by the lawe of charitie and speciallie or more particularlie by constitution either politicke or ecclesiasticall He addeth Etsi enim conscientias propriè solus deus ligat tamen quatenus vel Magistratus qui dei minister est iudicat interesse reipublicae vt quippiam alioqui per se licitum non fiat vel ecclesia ordinis decori adeóque aedificationis rationem habens leges aliquas de rebus medijs ritè condit eiusmodi leges pijs omnino sunt obseruande eatenus conscientias ligant vt nemo sciens prudens rebellandi animo possit absque peccato vel facere quae ita prohibentur vel â—mittere quae sic prâ—cipiuntur That is to say For although properlie God alone doth bind the consciences yet so farre as either the Magistrate which is the minister of God doth iudge it profitable for the Common-wealth that something should not be done which otherwise of it self is lawful or the Church hauing regard of order and comelines so of edification doth rightlie make some lawes in matters indifferent such lawes are many wise to bee obserued of the godlie and do so farre bind the conscience that no man wittinglie and willinglie with a mind to rebel can without sinne either doo the things which are so forbidden or leaue vndone things so commanded What haue I said more than the Churches do hold master Beza and all the most noble Instruments of GOD in these last daies if I should stand to shewe it Then ye may see when Master Greenwood doth so raginglie take on and strike he knowes not whom such furie is not fit for disputation in the Church Let not the reader here suppose that I goe about to maintaine that the prayer of any is pleasing to God which come with customarie words of course without feeling their wants or that I should hold that a set forme of prayer is of men to bee vttered without meditation and preparation as many doo of an idle custome as if the verie saying were a great seruice to God Nor yet doo I hold that all men alike stand in néede of prescript forme in their priuate praiers or that the feruencie of praier is not often times more vehement in vttering any request in priuate prayer without prescript forme than with it if a man be able I say further A man is to cal vpoÌ„ God not only as his néed in any particular shal vrge him euen at al times but he is also to stir vp himselfe and to prepare himselfe to begge moe things than bee in his present feeling and memorie which prescript formes are an help to direct him vnto And when a man commeth to the publike assemblies to pray the case is somewhat differing from making his priuate requests for there he commeth not to craue those things alone which hee feeleth present neede of or which hee is mooued withall but to make common requests with the whole congregation in all things that they are to craue To this he must now frame himselfe Among fiue or sixe hundred the particular wants or
there is no Church Then he sheweth further that the offence is iust and God must needs punish that there is such wounding of weake consciences but in this they offend as hee saieth that they knowe not how to keepe anie measure in being offended or omitting that clemencie which the Lord requireth they giue themselues wholie vnto immoderate seueritie And because they think there is no Church where there is not sound puritie and integritie of life through the hatred of wickednes they depart away from the lawfull Church while they thinke they turne a side from the faction of the wicked Then he proceedeth in answering their obiections they alleage that the Church of Christ is holie he willeth them also to vnderstand by the parables in the Gospell that the good and the bad are mixed together They erie out that it is a thing intollerable that the contagious pestilence of vices dooth in such violent raging sort ouerspread all hee setteth before them the vices that were in the Churches of Corinth and Galatia They obiect that Paul dooth will we eate not with anie called a brother which is of an vngodlie life Yea here they crie out that if it be not lawfull to eate common bread with such how should it be lawfull to eate with them the bread of the Lord He answereth that it is a great reproach in deede if dogges and swine bee admitted to haue place among the children of God yea it is also much greater if the sacred bodie of Christ be prostituted vnto them And where the Churches are well ordred they doo not keepe in their bosome the notorious wicked nor admit all without difference to that holie banquet but the pastors are not alwaies diligent sometime they fauour more than they ought or bee more remisse And sometime they cannot but are letted from exercising that seueritie which they would Now when the Church ceaseth to doo her duetie herein it is not for euery priuate man saith he to separate himselfe euery godly man is indeede to keepe himselfe from the fellowship of sinne but it is one thing to eschewe the fellowship of sinne and another for hatred thereof to renounce the Communion of the Church Then hee answereth further that Saint Paul willeth euerie one to examine himselfe when hee commeth to eate of that bread and if it were a wicked thing to communicate with the vnworthie Paul would certainelie haue willed vs to looke about least there should bee some in the multitude by whose vncleannes we might be defiled These things he hath in the fourteenth and fifteenth sections in the sixteenth section hauing shewed that the chiefe ringleaders in such separation are led with pride he willeth the godlie to consider that in a great multitude there are manie which are truelie holie and innocent before the eyes of the Lord which are hid from their sight that of those which seeme diseased or infected there are manie which doo not please or flatter themselues in their vices but being eftsones awakened with an earnest feare of God labour to amend That they must not iudge of a man for one fact when the holiest men doo sometime fall most grieuouslie That the Ministrie of the word and the participation of the Sacraments haue more force to gather a Church than that by the fault of certaine wicked men that whole power may vanish or come to none effect Finallie let them consider that in esteeming a Church the iudgement of God is of more waight and certaintie than the iudgement of man In the eighteenth section hee setteth forth how the holie Prophets of God did not separate themselues in those horrible and lamentable desolations which they describe when most of the people and the Priestes themselues were openlie wicked Thus may wee see that Master Caluine condemning the Brownists so seuerelie by the Scriptures they must either reuoke Brownisme in this point that the bad pollute the good and therefore separation to be made which he termeth sacrilegious treacherie or else condemne him not onelie with the Church of Geneua which he taught but also all other Churches that imbrace his writings and acknowledge him for a noble instrument of God Furthermore let the Brownists shew any one assemblie at this day in the World in which there bee not open sinners admitted to the Lords table and which sinne in great sinnes as either in pride selfe loue ambition couetousnes idlenes hatred enuie contention backbiting lying and in such like They say all are polluted and fallen away from the couenant where any that openlie sinneth is admitted to the holie Communion How can they say then that they doo not condemne all Churches vnder heauen Finallie when in their writings they affirme that prescript forme of prayer imposed is Idolatrie a bondage breaking christian libertie a thing most detestable they doo so farre condemne all Churches in as much as there is no one which hath not prescript forme of Prayer imposed And the Brownist which hath published in Print a defence of the same alleageth the extreame curse against those that adde to Gods word Reuel 22. and saith they adde which make Lawes in the Church in matters of circumstance or things indifferent Which in deede all the Churches doo and therefore hee layeth that extreame curse vpon all the reformed Churches let no man therefore be so simple as to imagine that the Brownists doo condemne but the English Churches when their extreame seueritie in condemning reacheth ouer all Now to the third thing obiected wherein they may seeme to differ from the Donatists namely that the Donatists did holde that the Sacraments or the efficacie of them doth depend vpon the worthines of the minister but the Brownists are not of that minde I answere that in this great and ranck poynt of Donatisme I can find no difference at all betwéen them and the Brownists and let the wordes and meaning of both be scanned and it shal appeare manifestly that they hold the selfe same thing neither more nor lesse like euen brethren The Brownists affirme that we haue neither worde of God nor Sacraments in our Church But demaund of them doth the Sacrament or the efficacie thereof depend vpon the worthines of the minister They will aunswere it doth not but yet it can be no Sacrament of Christ vnles hee be a minister of Christ that doth deliuer it If it bee saide vnto them Iudas was a most wicked man and our Sauiour calleth him a diuell yet was he a minister of Christ for the time and the baptisme he administred as effectual as the baptisme of any other They will replie and say that was so because the sinne of Iudas was secret they were not polluted by his vncleannes because they did not know it But he that is an open sinner cannot be a minister of Christ and such as receiue the Sacrament at his hand knowing his wickednes cannot but be partakers of his sinne and polluted by the same This wil they say is
compell men but rather inuite them Quodsi cogi per legem aliquem vel ad bona licuisser vosipsi miseri a nobis ad sidem purissimam cogi debuistis Sed absit absit a nostra conscientia vt ad nostram sidem aliquem compellamus If it were lawfull saith this Donatist that anie should by the Lawe be compelled yea euen vnto good things you wretches ought to bee compelled by vs to the most pure faith but farre be it farre be it from our conscience that we should compell anie vnto our faith chapt 83. Quid vobis est cum regibus seculi quos nunquam Christianit as nisi inuidos sensit What haue you to doo with the Kings of the Worlde which the Christianitie hath neuer felt but enuious against it Chapter 92. Compare now the doctrine of our Brownists and their sayings with these former of the Donatists and see if there bee anie difference They say Princes are not to make Lawes for Church matters Princes are not to reforme the Church by their authoritie Princes are not to compell their subiects to the true worship of God by penalties If Princes pleasures are to be attended where is the persecution wee speake of None of the godlie Kings of Iudea durit compell anie to the couenant The people of Christs Kingdome are spontanes such as come of their owne free accord c. It were too long and tedious to set foorth all the outcries of the Donatists their glorying in suffering persecutions for the trueth their accusations against the pastors of Christs Churche and the Princes while they sought to restraine their furie the one by Gods word the other by lawes that they persecuted and therefore could not be the true Church which as they say is persecuted but neuer persecuteth reade the epistle of Parmenian of Petilian and of Cresconius The Brownists are not behinde them an intch in this matter but crie out as fast of Antichristian persecutors boasting of their patience and sufferings calling themselues the persecuted remnant the poore afflicted c. Aug. answereth those Donatists at large I will recite but a little Cum phreneticus medicum vexet medicus phreneticum liget aut ambo inuicem persequuntur aut si persecutio quae malo sit non est non vtiq persequitur medicus phreneticum sed phreneticus medicum When the man that is in phrensie dooth vex the phisitian and the phisitian dooth binde him that is in phrensie either both doo persecute each other or else if that bee not a persecution which is done to the euill then verelie the phisitian dooth not persecute the phrantick or mad man but the phrantick or mad man dooth persecute the phisitian Against Cresconius Booke 4. Chapter 51. his application is that the penall Lawes of the Princes were as the bands of the Phisitian to binde the Phrensie and furious outrage of the Donatists And whereas they boasted of patience and woulde compell none He answereth that because they bee not able to resist so manie nations which were Catholike they gloried of patience that they compelled none to their part Hee then addeth Isto modo miluus cum pullos rapere territus non potuerit co lūbum se nominet After the same sort the Puttocke when he is fraid and can not snatch away the chickens may name himselfe a Doue For he doth demaund of them what they haue not done which they were able When Iulian the Apostata being Emperour enuying the peace of Christ shewed them fauour and graunted to them Churches what slaughters they committed Likewise he sheweth in many places what reuell their circumcellions made which in companies walking with clubbes and staues did spoile and beate such as light into their handes vsing moreouer a sauage crueltie in putting vineger and lime into mens eies when they had beaten them And verely what is it which men of excéeding intemperate heate will not doe if it bee once in their power against such as they shall iudge to bee but as vile Idolaters and persecutors of Christes truth The impatient heate of most Brownistes is not vnknowē but when the Kites for feare can not snatch vp the Chickens must professe the mekenes of Doues as to say weare Christes poore afflicted seruants we be meeke and patient we beare the crosse Where it is taught that priuate men are authorised to deale and furie aboundeth which things are among the Brownistes who is able to expresse the tragedies that would ensue if power were not wanting in thē the Princes may not stoppe their course and who shall then resist The Donatists abusing the scriptures in their plentifull allegations and finding that their grosenesse was detected much by the skill of artes found fault that any thing should be scanned by the rules of Logike The Brownistes are euen with them if not beyond In his first booke against Cresconius Chap. 14 Augustine reporteth the wordes of that Donatist thus Vestros Episcopos laudas quod nobiscum velut dialecticis nolint habere sermonem Thou doest commend your Bishoppes that they refuse to haue speech or conference with vs as being Logicians He answereth at large in shewing what Logicke is and the worthie and necessarie vse thereof in discussing matters of religion Browne in the preface of his booke which hee saith sheweth the life and manners of Christians calleth them sophisticall diuines which deale by the rules of Logicke The Brownistes with whome I deale charge the students of the Vniuersities as trained vp in vaine and curious Artes. And what other cause shall euer be shewed of so barbarous an errour but that they would not haue their matters tried by the rules which make manifest which is truth and which is falsehoode Thus haue I briefely laide open that the whole Donatisme is maintained by the Brownistes and therefore I haue rightly termed them the Donatistes of England An answere to Master Greenewood touching read prayer MAster Greenewood in the preface of his booke dooth shew that the reasons spread abroade in writing against read praier were his which I did not knowe before now and therefore bee taketh vpon him the defence of them He would seeme to haue found out such a deapth of spirituall wisdome touching the holie exercise of prayer and so reprooueth the grosenes of this age that wee must esteeme him for the aboundance of spirit as an other Montanus For whereas hee seemeth to charge this age onelie as grosse in this poynt in verie deede he accuseth all ages all Churches and all the learned teachers that haue beene since the Apostles so that in the gifts of the spirite he excelleth all Hee saieth hee could yet neuer see it set downe which is the true praier that onelie pleaseth God It is a strange thing hee hath neuer heard that whosoeuer asketh in faith whether it be with prescript forme or otherwise it is the onelie true praier that pleaseth God Hee saieth I haue flien vpon him with bitternesse of spirite and
them therefore they doo not pray Because I saide it is an helpe to such as bee not otherwise throughlie able I must confesse that our whole Ministerie is vnable a reason worthie a Brownist There be other causes whie all Churches vse prescript forme yea whereas all Ministers be able to pray without a booke Where I saide yee speake fondlie to call that the cause which dooth but manifest the cause yee replie that I haue forgotten mine atts because there be mo causes than one there be instrumentall causes I graunt there be moe causes than one And it is certaine that the efficient cause is manifolde if you meane by fetching the cause of their sorrowing from the booke in the time of their begging at Gods hand the efficient cause instrumentall I would haue yee but answer whether the instrumental cause cannot goe with the action but the action is ouerthrowne or disgraced I would also demaund whether it followe which yee collect there is an instrumentall cause which is an helpe therefore there is nothing else Are these things other than trifles I saide yee did answere nothing to that saying of our Sauiour When ye pray say our Father which art in Heauen c. Luke 11. Yee seeme that yee will not answer vnles I conclude from this place by Syllogisme but yet afterward yee doâ— And indeede what needeth a Syllogisme where the words are of themselues sufficient without anie further consequence or collection If our Sauiour commaund to say those words praying then is it most cleere that to vse a prescript forme of words in praying is not idolatrie nor a thing most detestable But yee say yee manifested in your first writing that our Sauiour did not commaund to vse those words when wee pray but to pray according to that forme Saint Matthew say you and Saint Luke keep not the same words nor that number of words hee saide not reade these words or say thâ—se words by roate when ye pray These reasons I haue slilie passed ouer as you accuse me What reasons If it be a reason there is but one for Christs speech is plaine when yee pray say thus therefore we may vse those words But must wee vse them of necessitie and neuer none other Not so but wee may vse and it is necessarie for vs to vse particulars which are conteined in those generals which are the ground and direction of all prayers Your one reason or that which hath shew of reason is in this that Saint Luke dooth omitte for thine is the Kingdome c. And that in the fourth and fift petitions they expresse the same matter with some difference of words As though the question were about such a precisenes in words that wee might not expresse the same petition in another phrase but it ceaseth to be the same Now where I conclude that it is therefore lawfull to vse a prescript forme of prayer which is framed according to the Scriptures in the assemblies To this yee replie that because no mans writings are without error it is pernicious and blasphemous doctrine which I collect This yee affirme stoutlie and for proofe bring nothing but those stale cauills which I haue sundrie times answered and now yee will answer to the two places alleaged Numb 6. and Luke 11. The priestes yee say were not commanded to vse those verie words of the blessing when they blessed the people the reason yee bring is from the Hebrew words which are as you say Coh teborcu thus shall yee blesse Where the worde Coh is an aduerb of similitude as we say after this manner which cannot be to say the same but according to the same instructions This word Coh is vsed throughout the Bible in this manner in all the prophets when they say thus saith the Lord. To this I answer first let all men of anie meane learning in the Hebrew bee witnes how vnfit Master Greenewood is to reason from that tongue when hee can not so much as reade two words of it aright For he saieth Coh teborcu and it is Coh tebaracu Then for the matter it selfe this learned Hebrucian saith that Coh being an aduerb of similitude as we say after the same manner it cannot be to say the same but according to the same instructions Where ignorance boldnes are met together what childreÌ„ they bring foorth We must beleeue that the Lord when he saith thus shalt thou blesse and prescribeth the words willeth the Priests not to speake the same words but the like And when our Sauiour saith When ye pray say thus Our father c. It is as much as if he should say in any wise say not these wordes at any time but the like For thus is not the same but the like God sayd to Moses I will send thee to Pharao that thou maiest bring the children of Israel out of Egypt Moses draweth backe saying when I shall come to the children of Israel and shall say vnto them the God of your fathers hath sent me vnto ye If they shall say vnto me what is his name what shall I say vnto them The Lord sayd Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel Eheie hath sent me vnto ye Moreouer God sayd to Moses Thus shalt thou say vnto them The God of your fathers the God of Abraham the God of Isaak the God of Iaacob hath sent me vnto ye Exod. 3. vers 13 14 15. Now according to Master Greenwoods exposition of Coh Moses is not commanded to say those words but the like If they should demaund what is his name that hath sent thee he may not say Eheie hath sent me because God sayd Coh that is thus which is not the same words but the like He might not say the God of Abraham the God of Isaak the God of Iaacob hath sent me vnto ye which GOD saith is his name and memoriall for euer because God sayd Coh that is thus shalt thou say but hee must say the like words He saith further that Coh is so vsed in all the Prophets when it is sayd thus saith the Lord. That is GOD hath not spoken these very words which wee bring might the Prophets say but the like It is a like thing that Master Greenwood or some other Hebrucian among the Brownists hath read ouer al the Prophets in the Hebrew tongue to finde how Coh is euerie where vsed when he could not reade two words right And now what shall we say of the Scriptures the words if wee shall beléeue the Brownists are not Gods words but the words of the Prophets Is this wholesome doctrine Did the Prophets bring any one word which GOD did not put into their mouth I pray ye Master Greenwood or any other Brownist tell me did not God speake in the Prophets all the words that they vttered euen at the verie instant when they say thus saith the Lord How can it then so wickedly be sayd they were not the very same words which God spake but
sinne therefore they that vse it are no Church Haue ye said no more but that it is an hainous sinne Haue you forgotten all your former sayings of Idolatrie bondage breaking Christian libertie most detestable standing vnder Gods wrath I hold him no Anabaptist nor Donatist which from such spéeches concludeth no true Church For I neuer heard that the true Church doth stand vnder Gods wrath The next wordes are sore Abaddon is the father of such Prophets saith Maister Greenewood because I say the Brownists maintaine such a fréedome as that will haue nothing imposed by commaundement I pray ye tell me whether you be one of those which set out the brief summe of the profession And when I had written against it I would knowe if ye were one that made the defence or approoued the same Did yee not approoue of the answers that goe vnder the name of Henrie Barrow Imposed is put for an argument by it selfe in those writings and so noted with a figure Could the very word imposed be an argument by it selfe if any imposing by commaundement bee lawfull in Gods worship If the ciuill Magistrates haue power but to reuiew the lawes of Christ and to mooue men or stirre them vp to the more diligent keeping of the same may they then impose by commaundement And as you speake here of that which is not onely receiued but also by commaundement as though there were great waight in the words by commaundement I pray ye tell me then what force ye repose in the words imposed and by commaundement when ye oppose them against Christian freedome Tell me also whether yee denie not that any Canons and constitutions made in Synods in matters variable are to be imposed by commandement If they be what is the reason that you Brownists when yee crie out against Church gouernment as it is in England speake in generall against Canons And a little after in this your booke ye denie all power of making lawes in things indifferent terming it an adding to Gods word and alleaging against it the extreame curse of God I graunt the Churches power is limitted by the word in making such lawes and so is the power of Princes There hath béen much sayd alreadie touching the Lords Praier and other prescript formes in the Scriptures but yet here come in newe reasons if I may so call them which are voide of reason Houtos is the same that the Hebrew Coh after this manner I answere that this hath béen dealt in before where ye must vnsay somewhat againe or else the words of the Scripture now written are not the words of the Lord but the like Further because Christ saith when ye pray if he willed we should say ouer y e words then should we euer when we pray say them To this I answere that respecting the rules for matters when ye pray when is as much as to say whensoeuer ye pray because we may not depart from those matters conteined in the general petitions But if we respect withall the prescript forme of words there is a double consideration to be had for in them selues they bee most excellent perfect and full and so brieflie doo containe the whole summe and substance of all thinges which we ought to craue of God as that nothing is wanting But our mind is not able so largelie or vnto such depth at one instant to spread or extend it selfe in desire as to bee mindfull of euery particular therein conteined And also we are more mooued as seuerall matters of néede doo presse vs to craue them particularlie Hereupon it doth followe that as on the one part it were agreat iniurie and hindrance that any man should binde vs when any particular néede vrgeth to begge reliefe onelie in the generall forme which includeth many things and not suffer vs to expresse the very particulars and singulars so on the other part to binde vs alwaies in such sort to the seuerall particulars that we may not at all vse the generals is very absurd and a disgrace to those most excellent petitions For by this it must needes followe that I may not say Let thy Kingdome come or forgiue vs our trespasses as we forgiue them that trespas against vs vntill the Brownists disprooue this he is fully conuict For if I may vse one petition of the generall heads when I pray I may vse anie one if any one then all The next argument which is brought is to this effect that if we be cōmaunded to say those words then should we sin in vsing any other forme for those being in y e best forme we are bound alwaies to bring the best sacrifice we haue or els we are accursed This reason I haue fully answered in that which went before for I haue shewed in what respect it is the most excellent absolute forme the best and can by no meanes without great absurditie yea wicked impietie be reiected withall what is necessarie and fit for vs. Now for conclusion let the Reader iudge whether I haue more need to leaue of as he saith my popish dreames or he his spirituall fantasies I am farre from maintaining that our Sauiour or his Apostles did stint or bynde men vnto certaine wordes which of necessitie they must vse and none other but this is the thing which the Brownistes must ioyne issue in with me whether I may not pray saying let thy kingdome come or if I may so vse the prescript forme of wordes in one petition whether I may not in any and so in all And heere let the Reader obserue that Maister Greenewood crying out for freedome complayning of a tradition that bringeth our libertie into bondage hee doth him selfe take away freedome and woulde lay a bondage vpon men and vpon the Churches For it is to lay a yoake of bondage when men will restraine that which God hath left free to bee vsed as shal be most conuenient and profitable for edification as to follow a prescript forme or to reade praying Among the Iewes in the time of the Law God tied them to the Temple and vnto certaine set howers for the Euening and Morning sacrifice but in this we are set free in the Gospell For I may lawfullie goe to the Temple to heare the word and to be partaker of the Sacraments with the assemblie and I may lawfullie frequent other places where the publike worship is The Churches may appoint the same howres for there meetings that were vnder the law if it be conuenient and they may appoint other if it shal be more fitte hee that in these shall take away the freedome which is giuen to the Churches doth lay a yoake of bondage In like case prescript forme of prayer to vse praying being an helpe to the weake and a thing sanctified of God and left free to the Church as neede shall require he that denieth that free vse doth lay a yoake of bondage And so I charge Maister Greenewood here to doe In the next place
y e Minister knowe what is in euery man doth he know euerie man womans particular wants He is to make the praier in which they are al to ioyne w t him in euerie request that he maketh Or is your meaning y t euerie man and woman shall come vnto him before euerie assemblie and make their state knowne what their seuerall neede is Or can the Minister beare in minde when he hath heard Ye may see into what absurdities blind fantasie doth cast men Men are to pray for nothing but that which they feele the want of and are prepared to aske are fit to receiue For these saith the Brownists there can be no set forme And I demaund whether the preacher doth know euery mans féeling how they are prepared how fit to receiue Will ye affirme this or will ye confesse that these grosse fantasies which yet you will father vpon Gods spirit doo quite ouerthrowe all publike prayer For if it bee sinne for any to pray for more than he commeth with the present feeling off if in the multitude the desires are seuerall if it bee vnpossible for the Minister to knowe them and how the hearts bee prepared and affected how shall he make prayer for them all how shall they all ioyne with him in euerie request How much better is it to confesse that the most things which all are to pray for and at all times are inuariable and that men come not only to pray for that which they feele their neede in but also to be stirred vp to pray for such things as either they thinke not of or be dull in I must needes here lament the state of our people which professe the Gospell and cannot espie the grossenesse of these thinges When the assemblies doo méet and holie petitions are made which men haue heard at euery meeting they ought to bee as feruent in praying as the first time they heard them For it is a grosse wickednes in men not to bee mooued with matter because they haue often heard it but accompt it stale as we see mans minde coueteth stil that which is newe If men haue not feeling it is their fault Touching the faults in any Leiturgie the question is not betweene vs which reason what should be That whâ—ch I spake of the preachers not limitted in their praiers I meane the prayers before and after their Sermons which they conceiue That our Sauiour prescribed no forme I shewed the reason that it is not a thing of necessitie but to auoide inconuenience neither are men tied to one forme in all churches Against this the Brownist replying biddeth me stand to this and saith I will goe from it in the next argument I say all the Brownists vnder heauen shall neuer be able with force of reason to driue me from it He first opposeth that if I say it be at all times necessarie then the Testament is not perfect How can I say it is at all times necessarie when I say it is not of necessitie Christs Testament is most absolutelie perfect but yet all things touching comelines order and conueniencie which are variable and may bee changed are not expresselie mentioned And that is one chiefe thing whereby the Brownists doo seduce many a simple man For this Brownist doth confesse that there bee things contained in the generall rules of the Scripture which are not expressed but he will not haue any of those things variable that is such as may be for good cause altered For thus he reasoneth I it bee a part of Gods worship and all times conuenient then is it necessarie and if it be not necessarie put saith he such conueniencie in your cornered cappe or surplesse And a little after but you graunt saith he it is not of necessitie therefore it is not commanded in particular nor conteined in any generall rule Thus may we see that he holdeth there is nothing in matters of conuenience or circumstance in Gods worship which is not of necessitie The ground of his reason is this If it be either expressed in particular or contained in any generall rule it is commaunded of GOD and man hath not authoritie to alter Gods commandement therefore it is necessarie I grant that matters of conueniencie are commaunded of GOD by the generall rules and that men may not take authoritie ouer Gods commandement I say therefore the Church doth sinne either of ignorance or of negligence when it faileth in matters of circumstance which should serue for edification But herein the Brownist sheweth himselfe most absurdly ignorant that he will haue that which is commanded to be of necessitie at all times For that he may not winde out here with shift as his manner is when any grosse thing vttered by him is detected Let the reader obserue his words and he shall sée plainly he reasoneth for a necessitie at all times For he saith If it be a part of Gods worship and at all times conuenient then is it necessarie And to manifest that he holdeth it all times conuenient saying if it be not necessarie put such conueniencie into your cornered cappe And againe hée ioyneth commanded in Gods word and necessarie at all times together And a little after he saith Whatsoeuer is commanded either in particular or in necessarie collection from the generall rules are of necessitie to be obeyed and not to be altered This I note to stop his euasion for many matters of circumstance seruing for conueniencie and order are fit at some times in some places and for some persons and so by the commaundement of GOD then to be vsed who willeth that all things be done comelie in order and to edification Now as the times do varie with the circumstances of place of persons and of other occasions the same things which were conuenient may become inconuenient and so not necessarie at all times as the blinde Brownist dooth beare in hand but to be altered As for example in the time of peace it is most conuenient that the assemblies should meete in some Temple or Church built for the purpose the Church is then to ordeine that it may bee so In the times of warre and cruell persecution when the enemies raunge about and rage it may bee farre more safe for feare of intrapping to meete in the woods or secret places Kneeling is the fittest gesture of the bodie when men in earnest prayer are to worship the Lord the Church is to commaund it where it may fitlie be done but if the assemblies be driuen to meet in such places as the ground being wet and through the trampling of their feete doth become myrie it is inconuenient that the multitude should bee compelled to kneele in the myre and therefore the former ordinance is now changed I might runne through a number of particulars but these are sufficient to declare what a learned Deuine master Greenwood is and how perfect a spirit doth guide his penne He demandeth also full wisely whether wee doo not hold
it of necessitie seeing men are excommunicate and deposed for not obseruing it or as some verie ignorantlie vse to say if it be a thing indifferent why is it not left indifferent for men to vse or not to vse I answere that which is a thing indifferent God commaundeth it shall be done when it is conuenient and for edification and therefore when the Church doth appoynt or ordeine it rightly he that breaketh it wilfullie breaketh the commandement of God And so on the other side when it falleth out not to be conuenient and the Church dooth alter it hee that will now obserue it with a resisting minde doth like wise offend against the rule of Gods word I neuer doubted but that by neâ—essary consequence it is to be drawen from the doctrine of the scriptures that prayer is to be made before and after the word preached but I speake of a commaundement in expresse wordes therefore the places are cited here by the Brownist to no purpose And all the rest of his words that follow are either in matters wherin we agree or such as he collectetth from his owne ignorance and which are answered before The next argument is Read prayers were deuised by Antichrist and maintaine superstition and Idole ministerie c. Here the Brownist if he would at all speak to the purpose shoulde prooue that the very reading a prayer when one prayeth is the deuise of Antichrist maintaineth superstitioÌ„ an Idole ministrie But he flieth dealeth about the matter of leiturgies saying he hath heard the Pope woulde haue approoued ours if it might be receiued in his name If master Greenwoods newes from Rome were true which hee heard the matter were not great for the Pope will approoue the Lords prayer the commaundements and articles of the faith but he wil expound them as it pleaseth him The Pope also to wind in himself wil approoue in shew many things which he misliketh so they be not directly against his crowne and dignitie And it is to be considered that the controuersies betweene vs and the Papists are not about the matters which we are to begge in prayer There is no likelyhood that the Pope made such offer because he knoweth we holde in the substance and grounds of the faith that which quite ouerthroweth him but if he did men may see by these things which I haue noted that master Greenwood doth but shift and trifle He confesseth leiturgies were before Antichrist and yet saith he was the deuiser See the grauitie of this man he is sore afraide that hee should here againe be said to condemne all Churches because they haue read prayer and therfore he saith his arguments are falsely wrested Answere your selfe then and tell vs what ye holde them which receiue the deuise of Antichrist Why crie yee not out of the marke of the beast It is a pitifull thing to see in what a case the Brownist is For he wil not coÌ„demne the Churches and yet after he hath set foorth what leiturgie is and affirmed that the new Testament is Christs leiturgie he alleageth that they be accursed that adde thereto and holdeth prescript forme of prayer an adding Let him now be asked is the curse layd vpon the true Churches he will say no. Then prescript forme is either no adding to Christs Testament or else they be vnder the curse that vse it He saith leiturgies are another gospel Then all Churches haue receiued another gosepl The wordes that follow haue bin answered before Where I sayd there would sundrie inconueniences growe for want of prescript forme of publike prayer After he hath set downe that Christ is a perfect law giuer and that the word of God is sufficient he tearmeth it blasphemie to say there would be inconueniences without leiturgies then all the Churches committe blasphemie whether doe ye yet condemne them or not This is from his grosenes which doth not se that Christs Testament is perfect and yet there are things commaunded in generall rules which are variable as I haue before shewed for circumstances of time place persons sitting kneeling c. He saith there can be no particular lawes made without breaking the lawe of God as though the Church were not to see what in these is fit and conuenient vpon euerie occasion and time and for that time to establish the same But euerie man to doe as he shall like or shal take the generall rule of order and decencie for men will not agree this is from rules of order to drawe confusion Now this great deuine saith I haue made a faire hande in affirming leiturgies to be but a matter of order or conueniencie for edification Seeing as hee saith it is all the worship we haue this commeth from him that hath the beautie of Sion as he boasteth which the inchaunters of Egipt cannot iudge of This commeth from him that with his fellowes hath the cloude betweene them and vs and the pillar of fire before them as he speaketh in the next wordes Because I say the prescript forme and the reading are but for order he concludeth that I confesse the prayer is but a matter of order or conueniencie ye say I haue made a faire hand But I tell ye master Greenwood if ye should goe into the Schooles and reason so in earnest the young boyes would be readie to hisse ye foorth as a non proficiens and howe faire hand should you make then they will not beleeue ye haue it from your pillar of fire but out of that dark cloud of your ignorance which is betweene your selfe and the light of the trueth Now wheras I said y e Church hath power to ordain according to the word of God to appoint such orders in matters of circumstance about publike prayer preaching of the worde and administring of the Sacraments as shall most fitly serue for edification and then these orders being established by publike authoritie the discipline and censures of the Church are to driue men to the obseruation of the same that stubbornely break them Here the poore Brownist layeth open himselfe againe to be as blinde as a beetle he will needes haue it to be papisticall mudde and that I am in an Apostacie Because there can as he saith no other lawes be made in matters of circumstance than Christ himselfe hath made that to ordaine lawes in the Church is to plead for vnwritten verities and to make the law of God vnsufficieÌ„t It is an adding to the word of God which is execrable pride All the Popes trinkets might bee brought in by the same ground This is the foundation of Poperie and Anabaptistrie to giue libertie to make lawes in the worship of God And by your iudgement which would haue men driuen to obserue them our Sauiour Christ was an Anabaptisticall Schismatike that would not himselfe nor his disciples obey the traditions of the Elders Thus speaketh this Brownist But what beastlie ignorance doth he bewray and that in sundrie poynts and with what