worships and the following reformed Churches those of Scotland Geneva and divers others in France and Switserland c. whose Doctrines rites and administrations wee doubt not will bee confessed more pure then English Churches It would bee too tedious and in these knowing times needlesse to search all records and to compare the puritie of the prayers and rites of these with former times wee read of very few formes used for 300. yeeres some short ones they had which are retained yet in our Liturgie with many more and these formes they had not imposed nor stinted which is the great offence of this untill about the yeere 406. and there wee read in the Milevitan Councell that no prayers should bee used in Churches but what were either composed of able and sufficient men or approved by the Synods and this was determined onely in regard of the ignorant Ministery of those contentious and hereticall times as Chemnitius observes ne forte aliquid contra fidem vel per ignorantiam vel per minus studium sit compositum If the Roman Bishops did multiply as indeed they did excessively unlesse their owne admirers erre grossely rites and formes of prayer yet it is well knowne how long it was ere the Churches in other places submitted to their power so that this comparison might well have beene spared To conclude though wee say not that all Churches since 200. yeeres after Christ were so miserably decayed that the faithfull might not without sinne communicate with them yet wee may bee bold to say many of them were so corrupt that the faithfull did not nor could not communicate in many parts of Gods worship without sinnes of ignorance conforming to the corruptions themselves and that if they had seene and discovered the evill of them they ought and we beleeve would have abstained from divers ordinances in regard of the corrupt administrations of them yea after all meanes used to purge them out and not prevailing they ought and would have withdrawn themselves to more pure Churches or erected such amongst themselves Reply The prayers of the Ministers conceived or stinted in a set forme bee not his private prayers but the publike prayers of the assembly but you will not say the people ought not to joyn with their pastour therein if ought bee amisse for matter manner or both Answ There is a wide difference betweene the whole Liturgie so imposed and so clogged as is before shewed and such prayers of the Minister having something amisse But you may put the case so as it would bee unlawfull for people to joyne in such prayers also as if the Minister for matter usually pray to Saints for manner turne himselfe and fix his eye on a Crucifix Reply It is all one to the people in this case whether the fault bee personall as some distinguish or otherwise knowne beforehand or not knowne for if simple presence defile whether knowne before hand 〈◊〉 not all presence is faultie and if simple presence defile not our presence is not condemned by reason of the corruptions knowne whereof wee stand not guiltie Answ First we distinguish not here between personall and ministeriall faults but object against the personall act of him that joynes with that whole Liturgie and so in the corruptions of it as hee must needs doe that joyns with the whole not onely saying Amen to them but as is knowne he takes his share in those shreds of prayers Responds c. which in Mr. Cartwrights judgement is so absurd as makes a man seeme out of his wits And therefore his personall actuall conformitie must needs carry guilt and therefore there is more then simple presence in this case as is cleare to any understanding Secondly it is not all one whether the faults bee knowne or not knowne beforehand as appeares plainely 1 Cor. 10.27 28 29. where wee see if a man come to a feast and know not they eate with reference to the Idoll nor that any take offence he may eate without asking any question but if hee know such things he may not eate Besides publique sinfull actions of Ministers are either 1 Accidental occasional or 2ly known appointed in a stated service now the frailties of a Minister which accidentally fall in and are not known before nor are any part and essence of the service unto which men that come doe or should take themselves to bee called hinder not communion because they doe not prae se ferre by their presence to attend and observe them but the corruptions of the Liturgie are knowne and appointed and to which and with which the imposers call others to joyne as in a stated service to God the use of which if it bee an humane frailtie in Gods Ministers not yet convinced of the evill thereof yet for those to communicate herein who know such evills have surely passed the bounds of frailtie and infirmitie because in this action of prayer there is not onely communion by way of presence as it is in hearing the word but communion of action publique prayer being the common action of the whole Church towards God There can be no prayer by any man offered to God but there will be some humane frailties attending on it if therefore for this cause wee should reject communion in prayer wee should reject the ordinances of God and never joyne in any prayer in this world but the corruptions of the Liturgie are not such but that they may bee more easily cast off then kept This case stands not in tolerating faults in another as the reply makes it but in actuall joyning with the sinnes of another wherein hee that joyneth is involved and therefore whether they bee corruptions that may bee tolerated or not in another yet if sinnes they may not bee practised and so joyned in with another And therefore the case you put of communion with any person obstinate in errour till hee may bee convinced is nothing to this purpose For wee must not joyne with him in his error no not an houre though wee may tolerate him a moneth Reply Hath not Christian wisedome and experience of humane frailties lessoned you deare brethren to beare one with another in matters of greater consequence then any have or can bee objected truely against the forme of prayer in use among us Answ The Lord hath lessoned us to tolerate and beare with many humane frailties not onely in one another but also in our deare brethren abroad but to joyne with the best of men in conformitie to knowne and grosse corruptions in worshipping God or to stoop so low to the insolent tyranny of usurping Prelates as to beare on our backs their whole Liturgie and the corruptions thereof wee confesse wee have not yet learned and now wee hope never to goe to that schoole againe to learne the same Reply And why such corruptions should not bee ascribed to humane frailtie we see not For if a godly Minister make use of a booke in things which hee judges
Answers we have studied not onely to answer to the Reply but have taken in what sundry others godly learned object against our principles but without mentioning scarce any time their Names of which we are sparing for no other reason but because we honour the men from our very hearts and could wish though differently minded from us in some things as Melanchthon did in another the like case to live and die in their bosomes The name of this servant of Christ now asleep is an oyntment poured out and precious to us we could therefore have wisht it our portion to have answered the Booke without the least reflecting upon him but the necessity herein is unavoydable This onely we adde that whatever weaknesses may passe from us let them not bee imputed to those servants of Christ that set us on work and have wanted leisure to review what is here done Every one may not bee in all things of the same mind with us for they may meet us in the same end though they use not the same arguments or become followers of us in the same path yet we know wee are not alone in any thing but may safely say this much that what is here defended is generally acknowledged and received in these Churches of Christ A DEFENCE OF THE NINE POSITIONS CHAP. I. Concerning the Title WHereas it is called a new Church-way wee little expected that Brethren studious of Reformation who have been so exercised with imputations of novelty would have so readily and in the frontispice cast the same upon us who with them desire to walk in the first wayes of our Lord Jesus Christ and his holy Apostles but as in most substantiall points of Church-order wee goe along with the best reformed Churches so wee doubt not to make it good that wherein wee pressing after further Reformation seeme to differ from them yet wee build upon Scripture grounds acknowledged by many godly and Learned Reformers in our English and other reformed Churches which if the Lord have in mercy given us further â—…ight or rather opportunity to practise then they had let it not bee imputed to us for novelty A new edition of the old Church-way of godly Reformers in some things perhaps corrected and amended is no new Church-way or if it be thought the mending of some crooks in the old way make a new way wee answer with Junius in a case not unlike Vt cunque nâ—…vam esse videâ—…tur 〈◊〉 quaecunque sunt vetera fuerunt nova ac non propterâ—…a novâ—…tatâ—â— nomine vitiosa nisi forte novam pro renovatâ restitutâ accipitis quo sensuâ—… novam esse hanc viam agnosciâ—â—â— One thing more in the Title page the Reader is to take notice of that whereas it is said This Treatise of Mr. Ball was penned a little before his death and sent over 1637. it seemes to bee a mistake of the Printer for the Nine Questions themselves were sent over 1636 the answer returned 38 but miscarrying another was sent 39. from which time wee longingly expected a return but partly for the reason rendred in the Epistle and what else wee know not wee never in so many yeares received any till this printed Reply by a Friends meanes came occasionally to our hands 1644. Concerning the Epistle to the Reader Whereas the publishers of this Treatise impute unto us or some related to our Cause That we are the Volunteers such as cry up this way and forward to blow such things abroad in the world which pressed them to make this Controversie publique 1 Wee may truly professe before the world that our Epistle sent with our former Answer proceeded from a spirit of love and peace with an humble willingnesse to receive further light by the holy and just Animadversions of our reverend and belâ—â—â—d Brethren which wee earnestly expected as men 〈…〉 after the truth 2 That wee were altogether ignorant of the 〈◊〉 of that our Answer and in that it was published then was not without our utter dislike wee have neither sounded trumpet nor struck up drum to any if any such volunteers wee heartily grieve that there are any differences between Brethren much more that they should bee published most of all if before they bee privately debated and brought to some head by mutual consent are thought fit to be sent out to publique considerations 3 For our Brethren in England we know no reason to question the truth of that Apology of our Brother Mr. Thomas Weld in his answer to W. R. pag. 2. Obj. 3. Answ 1. where he professeth in the name of himselfe and others of our way a lothnesse to appeare in the case and that although they had Bookes of this subject ready for the Presse yet by joint consent they suppressed them happily to the detriment of the Cause being unwilling to blow a fire and whether they appeared in Pulpit or Presse without instigation and how sparingly hee appeales to all the godly to judge 4 Lastly wee desire our Brethren to consider the date of Mr. Ball his Booke printed for stinted Liturgies one chiefe part of this controversie and the Printed answer to the Nine questions and let that resolve the question who of us came first Volunteers into the field and if any through weaknesse or zeale without knowledge have been too clamorous to cry up New-England way with reproach to others wee desire the world to take notice that they have neither patent nor patterne from us so to doe who came not hither proudly to censure others but to reforme our owne CHAP. II. Qu. 1. That a stinted Forme of Prayer and set Liturgie is unlawfull Reply THis Position cannot beare that meaning which you give it if you take it according to our minds and the plaine construction of the words We never questioned why you made not use of a Liturgie c. Answ Let our Answer bee viewed and it will appeare that wee had just cause to premise those distinctions of Formes of Prayer into private and publike and publike into such as are imposed by others or composed and used by Ministers themselves before their Sermons otherwise we must have involved such in the Position as wee doe not condemn Now if your generall thesis justly admit such limitation to publike imposed Formes where shall wee finde any set stinted imposed Liturgies but in Churches of the Papacy or Prelacy no Reformed Churches stinting or imposing their Formes of Prayer but leaving Ministers and people at much liberty Onely the English Liturgy therefore is such according to the plaine construction of the words 2 Concerning your minds in the Position wee deny not but you might intend to draw from us an approbation of stinted Liturgies in generall that so you might have to stay the separation of people from your Liturgy whereof you complaine but by that it appeares plainly what your chiefe scope and ayme was in the Position according unto which wee thought it most safe and pertinent for us to
answer And this wee did the rather for our reason mentioned in our letter because though all of us could not concurre to condemne all set Formes as unlawfull yet wee could in this viz. that though some set Forms may bee lawfull yet it will not follow that this of the English Liturgy is therefore to remove all obscurities and breake all snares and resolve the question in the true intent of it wee were forced to distinguish of Formes and so touch the true Helena of this controversie and therefore if any shall narrowly observe Mr. Ball his large defence of set Forms in generall they shall finde those wings spread forth in a very great breadth to give some shelter and warmth to that particular Liturgie then languishing and hastening through age and feeblenesse towards its last end Reply It is true people separate from our Liturgie because stinted not because this or that or ours in particular Answ If because it's stinted then because yours for we know none properly such but yours and it may well bee one offence to all godly consciences that yours are so imposed and stinted as they bee though it is hardly credible to us so farre as our observation reach that the main causes of the godly withdrawing from your Liturgy should be the stinting of it when so many corruptions in Matter and Forme have been objected against it by the best godly Reformers And seeing the same persons will joyne with Prayers of godly Preachers though they use the same forme of prayer usually and so in a large sense freely stinting themselves thereto though not properly in such sense as your Liturgy is stinted Reply But say you such set Formes used by Preachers are disliked also and your reasons especially the two last why you admit not a stinted Liturgie conclude against both in our understanding Answ Wee deny not but some may dislike the constant use of such Formes especially when studiously framed with elegancy of phrases and as the manner of some is but doe any we now speak of condemne all use thereof or withdraw from them that use them which is now the case in hand For our parts wee neither know such men or if we did we should condemn such minds As for our Reasons in generall or the two last you mention in particular it passeth our understanding to conceive how any such inference can bee made if the Reply had formed the inferences from our arguments it may bee wee should have seene more by the helpe of such spectacles But passing over what we say to the Position as we interpret it you think fit to advertise us of some things which are six Reply Advert 1. Your reasons why you accept not a stinted Liturgie are ambiguously propounded and so that such as looke at stinted Liturgies as images forbidden Command 2. may easily draw your words to their meaning Answ If our Reasons themselves being sound and unanswered by you contain any thing that may be drawn to such a Position that cannot arise from the ambiguousnesse of words which are plaine but from their abuse who mis-apply them Reply Advert 2. The Reasons you bring against a set forme of Prayer doe hold as strong against a set forme of Catechisme confession and profession of faith blessing baptizing and singing of Psalmes Answ 1 Concerning forms of Catechismes and confessions of Faith if religiously and perspicuously framed wee account them of singular use though abused by men nor without some sacred allowance yet from hence to infer the like use of set Formes of prayers neither our reasons nor any other will in force for Catechismes and Confessions as well as Psalmes in the nature of the thing require in some sense a set and limited Forme but publike prayers though they may admit of a set and comely order in the generall to prevent errour yet of their owne nature they require no set Forme for God gives us no new matter or doctrine daily to be beleeved but he gives new matter of new affection in prayer daily 2 If by set Forms of Catechismes and Confessions bee meant according to the termes of the Question stinted Formes like stinted Liturgies i. e. beyond or short of which Ministers may not teach or Christians beleeve and professe then wee should say the same of these as wee doe of stinted Formes of Prayer wee confesse there is danger in casting by all Formes of Confessions and Catechismes lest through the instability of ungrounded and heady men pretending new light or searching after further light the Churches adhere to nothing and their Faith as the learned Leyden Professors terme it become fides horaria or menstrua The faith of an houre or moneth and then cast it off the next And on the other side there is danger that by imposing such Confessions too far that which is indeed further light be supprest wee therefore thinke it usefull and needfull to pave out such high wayes of Catechismes and Confessions so as the subjects of Christ Jesus our King and Law-giver may walke therein without shackles reserving liberty for further future light in points lesse cleare yet standing in a readinesse alwayes to confesse and hold fast the present truth which appeares most cleare 3 Concerning Forms of blessing baptizing singing Scripture Psalmes there is a far differing reason from this case for the Lord himselfe hath left us Formes in these cases not onely for instruction but allowing the use of the same as Numb 6.23 c. Luke 10.5 Matth. 28.20 2 Chron. 29.30 and therefore such may bee used as hee hath left yet the Lord hath not imposed some of these at least to bee used alwayes and onely in his Churches much lesse doth hee allow any man to impose their own Forms upon his Churches or conforme to such as are tyrannously imposed Reply Third Advert We have not called you at this time to witnesse for or against the corruptions of the Common-prayer-book this you fall upon by straining the sense of our demands Answ Wee have spoken to this before and we thinke whatsoever your intent and desire was yet the nature of the thing and the case it selfe gave us a just call to testifie against it especially seeing the corruptions then increased in England and the impositions were more rigid and violent Reply The reasons you bring against the Communion-booke wee cannot approve them all the exceptions against it wee know but to esteem the whole for some corruptions found therein a Monument of Idolatry that we have not learned Answ The Answer calls it not a Monument of Idolatry for some corruptions onely found in it though the corruptions in matter and manner bee objected as the first reason why wee used it not but being never commanded of God greatly abused unto Idolatry and superstition and of no necessary use the same that was in Popery for substance which are the usuall arguments for abolishing Images Ceremonies and all Monuments of Idolatry and wee marvaile how any
proposition so they will much take off the edge of the Reply For it will appeare that all conformitie of Ministers and people to any parcells of that booke at such a season as this was is a farre differing case from those that are put in some of the replies 1 To the first reply then wherein you put it beyond imagination that such a practise should bee scandalous or offensive wee know not what you have observed in some particular congregations neere you but what ever have beene the opinions of men formerly concerning this practise yet you know that the booke in generall hath been condemned of all godly reformers and the use of any part of it hath been counted burdensome to many for the reasons named But of later times as the booke and conformitie thereto was urged more hotly so the spirits of very many grew more zealous against it and began to loath it and to withdraw wholly from it many very inquisitive about the lawfulnesse or unlawfulnesse of joyning with it at all and your selves complaine of the withdrawing of many from joyning in the ordinances where it was used so that wee see not but at least in some persons and at some places and times it might probably bee offensive and scandalous so to practise 2 Wee looked not onely to the offence of those in your owne congregations but to the imboldning and hardning of Papists in honouring any part of their portuises above the formes of other reformed Churches abroad and you cannot bee ignorant how many of the Lords witnesses now asleepe have testified of the offence and danger thereof Reply 2 You say if the booke were an Idolothyte yet latent offence doth not oblige Answ The offence in this season and as all things stand cannot bee latent complaint is made of the offence taken by many and therefore it is evident Reply 3 The booke so farre as it is sound and good by your confession is no Idolothyte nor taken out of the Masse booke in such sense as you object but rather the Masse and other prayers added to it Popery is a scab cleâ—…ving to the Church and many truths belonging to the Church as her proper Legacy were stolne and heaped together in that Denne And why the true man may not challenge his goods where ever hee finde them or the theefe plead title to the true mans goods by prescription wee know not Answ First wee judge the whole booke an Idolothyte and whence you gather that wee confesse the contrary of any part of it as it stands apart in relation to that whole wee know not Secondly that it was taken out of the Masse booke was proved by the confession of King Edward and other evidences are many but you say not in such sense as wee object But rather è contra Masse c. added to it c. But where to finde such a legacy bequeathed to the Church in the Testament of our Lord Jesus Christ wee could never yet see So that wee rather feare all those formes of prayer of marriage burialls visitations of the sick confirmation c. are rather the copper counterfeit coyne of a well growne Antichrist whereby he cousened the Churches when hee stole away the golden Legacy of Christ rather then any part of the true Churches Legacy and therefore it had been more happy for the Churches that they had never challenged the same but let the theefes prescription to have been a good plea to hold them still this further we adde when we say it was taken out of the Masse-booke wee understand Masse-booke in a large sense as it is commonly taken for to speake narrowly it was collected out of three Popish bookes the first part of publique Prayers exbreviario the second part viz. the order of administring Sacraments Matrimony visiting the sick and burialls è Rituali 3. the order of consecration in the Supper the Epistles and Gospels and Collects è Missali as the forme of consecration of Bishops and Priests was taken è Pontificali as the Author of Altare Damasc shews pag. 612. Thirdly because those words Popery is a scab c. may bee a seed of much evill an Egge out of which a Serpent may bee hatched if men zealous of mouldy formes may but have time againe to set upon it if the wheele of these evill times through Gods judgement on this wanton age turne the Prelates or other zelotes for this Liturgie uppermost wee shall therefore crave libertie to examine this speech more narrowly And because as it is said unumquodque ex suâ origine rectissime judicatur wee shall trace the steps of the first times and so downeward to see what sound parts of Liturgie there was on which this scab is supposed to grow 1. Our blessed Saviour taught his Disciples a blessed forme which though it may bee lawfully and comfortably used the rather not being of mans but the Lords composing yet it is evident hee never appointed his people to use it as their onely forme and therefore the Apostles in the primitive Church in that heavenly prayer Acts 4. did not attend to the words and forme of this prayer though they might have this in their eye as the comon rule and direction how to powre out their prayers to God for particular things which may be an everlasting witnesse against their usurpations that will limit the Churches to their formes which the Lord Christ would not doe to his owne 2. In the first 300. yeeres after Christ wee read of few formes that the Churches used and those rather short ejaculations then set formes but contrarily wee read frequently of the exercise of their gifts in prayer They prayed sine monitore quia de pectore saith Tertullian i. e. They prayed without a Promptour because from the heart which as Zephirus observes was in opposition to the prompted formes then in use amongst the Pagans Wee read also what they prayed for viz. pro inimicis pro imperatoribus pro statu seculi pro morà finis c. but of any set formes we read not Their persecutions and dayes of afflictions preserved them from formalitie in prayer and taught them how to finde their hearts and knees and tongues to poure out their soules to God while under the Altar they were pouring out their blood 3. But after the Churches had enjoyed peace for some space of time wherein securitie usually makes insensible and insensâ—…blenesse formall then indeed wee read of set and imposed formes which the rather prevailed in regard of the grosse and palpable ignorance of a blind ministry under a more learned Prelacy and therefore it is well observed by Chemnitius that the third Councell of Carthage decreed this ut nemo in precibus c. viz. that no Minister in his prayers either names the Father for the Sonne or the Sonne for the Father but when hee comes to the Altar to direct his prayers alwayes to God the Father and that no man use his owne formes
wisheth utinam tales hodie à ministerio aâ—…verentuâ—… Fourthly because the Lord would cast off their children from being his for this sinne as Calvin also notes upon the place the promise of shewing mercy to a 1000. generations being chiefly annexed to the observers of the second Command and the instituted meanes of worship which those Priests never were Reply On the contrary if you will extend this Text to all unworthy Ministers of what sort soever whom the Word of God condemns as not approved Ministers of God c. Answ Wee intended no other sorts then such as wee have in hand the unable and ungodly Idoll Priests of England and therefore this discourse concernes us not For wee freely confesse that it is lawfull in divers cases at least for a time to communicate with such unworthy Ministers as may bee contained in your description but that people must and ought to joyne with such in the worship of God and sinne if they separate from the ordinances as you say the Scriptures alledged teach not this so evidently that wee can see as 1 Sam. 2.12 13.17.24 that imputation Verse 24. They make the Lords people to transgresse doth not depend immediatly on Verse 13 14.17 but on Verse 22.23 where they are charged to have layne with the women the other passages being interrupted by the story of Samuel and his Mother Verse 18 19.20 21. So Jer. 8.8 9. Micah 3.11 12. containe onely threats against wicked Ministers but not a word to prove people ought to joyne with them c. Phil. 1.15 speaking of such as preach and preach Christ though not of sinceritie doth not reach such Ministers as the word condemnes for many such may be approved Ministers by the Word having a call according to the same but wee shall not contend in this case wherein wee doe not dissent so that Christians bee left to their lawfull libertie of withdrawing from Ministers grossely wicked and Teachers of false Doctrin or idle and unsufficient when they cannot reclaime them or remove them in the use of all lawfull meanes within their power Reply The reasons whereby the ancient Churches condemned the Donatists and Catharists for their voluntary and seditious separations and the moderne Churches condemne the Anabaptists for their renting from the body of Christ will hold against separation from the Prayers of the Congregation because they are read by an ungodly Minister Wee deny that wee teach or hold such separation because read by an ungodly Minister as is sufficiently shewed before but what we speak is against conformitie to and communion with the corruptions of the Liturgie especially used by an unable as well as ungodly Minister and therefore the arguments mentioned will hold against our proposition just as the accusations and imputations of Donatisme Puritanisme Anabaptisme which the Prelates cast upon all Non-conformists and men studious of reformation will hold and fasten upon them which is nothing at all Reply The second Proposition where the whole Liturgie is used though by an able and godly Minister it is not lawfull to joyne in prayer in that case Wee cannot bee of your judgement herein for in the times of the Prophets and our Saviour Christ as great abuses no question were found c. but they never taught people to separate from the holy things of God Answ First wee must still mind the Reader of the true and full state of the question which in our answer is of joyning in prayer with and when that whole Liturgy is used and hee that joynes with that whole Liturgie must needs bee supposed to have actuall communion with all the corruptions thereof what ever they bee and therefore though this Proposition reach to the practise of able and godly Ministers yet let none thinke wee plead herein separation from their ministery but onely that people may not conforme with them to any corruption in worship and by this proposition also the Author might easily have seene that wee denied the other which was woven in with this not because of the ungodlinesse of the Minister alone as hee carried his dispute but chiefly in respect of the corruptions of the worship together with the unlawfulnesse of such a ministery that is both unable and ungodly Secondly concerning the argument it runs as full for conformitie to all the corrupt ceremonies of the booke as the corrupt worship it selfe therein as was said before cleare the one viz. non-conformitie to ceremonies shew a reason why you will separate from the Sacrament because you will not kneele according to the booke and you answer your argument here alledged against us but the reply proceeds Reply And if presence at formes of prayer bee not lawfull by reason of the corruptions alledged there can bee no visible societie named since 200. yeeres after Christ or thereabout wherein a Christian might lawfully joyne in prayer reading the Scriptures hearing the word or participation of the Sacraments their Doctrines prayers rights being lesse pure then ours but no man wee hope will bee so bold as to affirme the state of the Churches within 200. yeers after Christ to bee so miserably decayed that the faithfull could not without sinne hold communion with them in the foresaid ordinances of God Answ First this argument holds as strongly for conformitie to the ceremonies as to the whole booke of Common Prayers as was said before Secondly this is a dangerous kind of reasoning from the practise of the faithfull in corrupt times of the Church especially when they are declining and growing clouds of darkenesse and superstition overspread the Churches It is no breach of charitie to thinke that through the iniquitie of the times the godly lived in many evils through ignorance and weakenesse which after light is come into the Churches wee ought to abandon wholly these are times of light and of the consumption of Antichrist and time for us to abolish his Liturgies and corrupt formes of worship as well as Images ceremonies c. Who doe not pitie the weaknesse of godly Bilny and others that seeing some grosse corruptions were yet so devoutly obedient to the Church as they called it in many grosse superstitions and the like may bee said of those former times and wee see not but this reason will goe farre in justification of communion with many false worships of Antichrists that are not grosly idolatrous Thirdly it is a great charge upon those times to say no visible societie throughout the world can bee named since 200. yeeres after Christ that was not lesse pure then England in Doctrine rites c. It may bee that as generally Churches were corrupt so they contemned and censured such as professed more puritie but that there were some visible assemblies more pure may bee conceived by that testimony given to Aerius and many orthodox Christians with him though condemned for a Hereticke in that which wee all now hold to bee an undoubted truth also after the Waldenses casting off the Pope and his will
till hee have conferred and shewed his formes to men more able which wee finde sometime to bee the Synod 4 After these times they added the commemoration of Saints to their Prayers and Letanies as appears from manifold instances whereof take but this one imputed to Chrysostome Sanctissimae Deiparae semper Virginis Mariae cum omnibus sanctis memoriam agentes nos ipsos omnem vitam nostram Christo Deo nostro commendamus Which Letanies at first being used more seldome at some times of the year afterwards grew into ordinary use to every end of which the people added Lord have mercy upon us and Exaudi Domine We beseech thee to hear us good Lord. 5 From commemoration of Saints being so near the brink they soon came on to invocation of them first in private prayers then in publick and that by degrees For first they called upon Christ to hear their intercessions for them Intercessionibus Sanctorum tuorum Salvator salva nos and thence they fell to direct and immediate invocation of them Maria Deo supplica ut animas nostras salvet 6 At last they became so superstitious in their Letanies or Liturgies that praying was magnified above all preaching and almost all preaching was changed into formall corrupt and blind praying and thus it was generally in the Churches till about the sixt Century as if need were might be shewed at large 7 Though other Churches were thus over-grown with Forms of Worship yet the Roman Bishops especially did multiply Forms and superstitious Rites excessively Rome being in Gods secret Providence left to become the very seat and throne of Antichrist The Bishops themselves also finding it exceeding hard to bring in the â—…ligion of Christ without conforming to the Pagan rites as Casaubon observes For it appears even in the time of Theodosius wherein Christianity was risen to a great head the Senate being sent unto by him to renounce their Pagan Religion and receive the law of Christ they returned answer that they would not but that they would observe the ancient law Pompilian to avoid the ruine of the Common-wealth which they feared might come by the change of Religion The Roman Bishops also for 400 years together could never obtain of the Senate nor multitudes of the Roman Idolaters to renounce their inveterate Idolatry and receive the Gospel Hence they conformed their Rites and Ceremonies to the Pagan and Idolatrous customes the better to allure them to Christ according to their carnalll policy We finde all the principal parts of the Masse to be borrowed from the Idolatrous Pagans and to have their originall from Numa Pompilius that Conjurer who lived 700 years before Christ to adorn and deck as the Bishops thought the Religion of Christ Jesus to the which with much ado at last the Romans were converted To which principall parts viz. Vestments Holy-water the Confiteor Organs Incense Offertory c. other deckings were added also as divers Letanies and the Kurie Elyson to be sung nine times invented by Gregory a Monk at first well-studied in the laws of Numa and Tullus Hostilius Damasus as Platina and Sabellius shew inriched it with Gloria Patri c. i. e. Glory be to the Father Son and Holy Ghost Sergius with an Agnus Dei to be sung three times Alexander and other Bishops added the Canon of the Masse others the Epistles and Gospels The Graduall and Collects were added by Gelasius anno 493. The Gloria in excelsis by Symmachus 508. At last came the Host in about 1062. Much more might be said All which when we consider we confess we are pusled to discern the difference between the sound part and the scab For if the principal formalities of the Masse out of which our Liturgy was taken as is confessed arose out of a politick push to conform the Christian to the Pagan Religion and the deckings of it from the itching humor of the Roman busie Bishops admirers of humane inventions and Ceremonies let the Reader then judge what sound parts are left beside the scab We do not speak this to condemn every thing for the matter of it that is in the Common-Prayer-book Yea we honor the affection and piety of the first Reformers and the godly then that were glad to hear Prayers in their own toâ—…e and according to the glimmering light of those times aymed at the winning of Papists to the true Religion by such a Form of Worship But now since experience hath taught it rather hardens them against the truth then draws them toward it when we see the pressing of it is rather a temptation to conform to Popery then otherwise we verily beleeve if they had lived in these times of further light they would have born witnesse against it as others have done Lastly though the originall had been good which yet is contrary we may answer in the words of Peter Martyr to such as did plead for a lawfull presence at Masse because the originall was good who answers thus In hisoe rebus non origo c. In these matters not the Originall but the Nature is to be considered for the brasen Serpent had its originall from God and was honored with miraculous works yet when abused Piis hominibus redditus est detestabilis it became most loathsome to godly men Reply It is no hard task to shew that our Service-book was reformed in most things according to the purest Liturgies which were in use in the Church long before the Masse was heard of in the world And if that could not be shewed yet forms of speech generally taken we speak not of this or that speciall word or phrase is no more defiled by Idolatry then the light air or place where Idolatry is committed c. Answ It is just cause of grief unto us that this reverend Author should thus use the Prelates plea for Surplice and other Ceremonies to justifie this corrupt Liturgy for these were before the Masse and many other Idols of the Papists and though a phrase or word be not polluted by their use of it yet a needless Ceremony and so a devised Form of Worship and a bundle of Ceremonious and corrupt Worâ—…s must needs be polluted by the use of them better to use tâ—… Forms of Turks then Papists saith Cartw. supra Reply Fourthly put case the Minister in reading give offence give unlawfull honor to a thing abused to Idolatry and suffer himself to be sinfully limited in reading what is that to the faithfull This can be no ground that the people may not joyn c. Answ We doe not conclude that they doe sin but fearfull we are lest they may so do all things considered in this case as have been before propounded If indeed the case stood as formerly it hath done in England we would have been lesse scrupulous and doubtfull of the matter but if by the out-breaking of light after so long toleration of the book we see so many evill effects of
it and see such superstitious opinions of it increasing and such pressing the same to the oppression of the Churches so many fall so many weak ones stagger and look at the example of their Guides if now when all are called of God to rise up against it with zeal and detestation a Minister godly and able will use any part of it with offence c. we suppose we had cause to fear and leave it doubtfull whether the godly might lawfully joyn with them therein and therefore we desire you to call back your sharp censure of such withdrawing as you conclude this passage withall or else we shal appeal to the reverend Assembly of Ministers and their late and godly Directory herein Reply Fifthly If these and such like scruples make it unlawfull to joyn in the ordinance of Worship we must hold communion with no society under heaven For may not the brethren which hold all stinted Liturgies and set Forms unlawfull say with like reason it is not lawfull to joyn with others inconceived Prayers if they give too little honor to it as conceiving the other lawful or sinfully limiting themselves to one stinted Form though conceived at first by themselves c. Answ We must intreat the Christian Reader still to carry in minde with what tendernesse we offered our selves in this point and upon what considerations we durst not wholly excuse and cleare such joyning as the case now stood and therefore we think these reasonings would be far differing from the case in hand and we would not be taken so as to justifie such rigid principles as these are We heartily joyn in the conclusion that such advancing of small differences would indeed bring all to confusion and we are far we hope from any such meaning If our answer in this or any other passage give just advantage to such separations we are heartily sorry for it but we hope what hath been said will satisfie the ingenuous and Christian Reader Reply Sixthly we have credibly heard that you hold fellowship with professed rigid separatists without acknowledging of their error and receive them as members or communicate with them in the priviledges of the Church though you professe you approve not their opinion or practice and if in godly wisdome you can see grounds to joyn with them we marvail you should be so timerous in this particular Answ Although in many of our Churches we know not that there be any such professed rigid Separatists that reject the Churches of England as no Churches and their Ministers as no true Ministers yet we deny not but some such there may bee in some of the Churches Whence we grant it may follow that we can have communion in Gods Worship with men of severall judgments yet we may be justly timerous of joyning or approving others to joyn in any part of a corrupt Worship in case of scandall c. we think these things have not the same face or shew of reason in them and therefore so long as they live peaceably with us we can well have fellowship with them as we have also with other that think it may be better of the Churches and wayes of it then there is cause in regard of the corruptions thereof so we be not bound to approve their opinions nor conform to any of their corrupt practises Reply Seventhly if to administer in a stinted Form be scandalous to such as separate it is scandall taken not given and we should do it the rather that they be not confirmed in their error the truth be not prejudiced needless scruples occasioned c. Answ 1 This is from the question for we dispute of your Liturgy not of any Liturgy or stinted Form 2 Take in the case in all its circumstances as before declared and it will appear scandall may be given at least we put the case of a scandall really given 3 How far a man in some cases of clear and undoubted truths may do a thing the rather for such reasons though others take offence we will not dispute but if for meat or by use of our liberty by eating of such meat as another accounts unclean we may destroy the work of God and therefore must not eat flesh nor drink wine nor any thing whereby a brother stumble c. Rom. 14 14 15 20 21. how dangerous then to use such corrupt Forms of Worship or any part thereof so much the rather when a weak brother stumbles at them we leave it to the Christian Reader to judge we doubt it will not agree with the rules of charity prescribed Rom. 14. 1 Cor. 8. CHAP. III. 3 Position That the children of godly and approved Christians are not to be baptized untill their Parents be set members of some particular Congregation 4 That the Parents themselves though of approved piety are not to be received to the Lords-supper untill they be admitted as set members Reply WHat is here premised to prevent mistakes doth seem more to raise then to abate scruples You refuse not all communion with all that are not Church-members and so much they professe who formerly have gone for and professed themselves Separatists from our assemblies you doe not appropriate these priviledges of the seals onely to members of your own Churches c. If you mean onely that the Sacraments administred in other Churches be true for substance it is no more then you will confesse of Rome If you deny not fellowship with them in the seals and to receive them to the Sacrament your judgement is against your practise or you exclude the Churches of England from the number of true Churches Answ We see not how such scruples could be raised without great mistake of our meaning our expressions were so plain and distinct For 1 What if some Separatists admit private communion with such yet they reject your Churches and Ministery as null which we doe not And many of them have refused also such private communion 2 We marvail how you could fall into such a mistake as to suppose we onely allow the truth of Sacraments for substance in other Churches when we speak in the same sentence of receiving satisfaction by Letters or otherwise concerning those we admit to the seales which plainly shew we speak of communion with such Churches 3 Concerning fellowship with those Churches we may admit members of them to the seales with us when we cannot always joyn with them in their administrations by reason of some sinfull corruptions wherein we must have actuall fellowship with them as your selves would not joyn in case you must kneel at the Lords-supper 4 Concerning the Dilemma We answer 1 Our practice is not crosse to this profession For such as come recommended from forein Churches and give such satisfaction as is meet we doe receive and such as have wholly cast off all relation to English Churches and live amongst us we have looked at as scattered stones till they joyn some where in a Church and themselves generally