speech of Purgatory or none at all and the Latines in the West Church did not all of them together receaue the truth of this matmatter but by little and little neither indeed was the faith either of Purgatory or pardons so needful in the Primitiue Church as now it is We neede no more then this confession of our aduersaries and testimony of the Greeke Church to shew the nouelty of this doctrine 3 And that which the Reply hath added in his margent Prayer for the dead which supposes the beleefe of Purgatory learned Protestants graunt to haue bene generall in the Church long before Saint Austines time is most weake for whatsoeuer learned Protestants say touching the antiquity of prayer for the dead which is impertinent now to be debated it is not true that the vse thereof supposes Purgatory which I will shew most euidently that the Reply may bewaile his cause when he sees no medicine applied to it can recouer or do it good For the Greekes praied for the dead and yet as you haue heard they beleeued not Purgatory And d See the Liturgies of Iames. Basil Chrysost and the rest in the praiers mentioned they praied for * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lit. Iacob the martyrs the B Virgine Iohn Baptist and for all the righteous from Abel to that day yet neither they nor the Church of Rome euer thought them to be in Purgatory Not the Martyres for e Bell. Purg. l. 2. c. 1. they are exempted by priuiledge Not f Rhem. on act 1. the B. Virgine for she had no sinne to purge but was carried immediately to heauen Not the iust from Abel to Christ for g Tho. Argenti 3. d. 22. art 4 p. 35. Gabr. ib. dub 3. Christ at his descent emptied Purgatorie It remaines therefore that their praying for the dead was not because they thought any to be in Purgatorie but by way of commemoration onely So sayes Cabasilas h Nicol. Cabasil exposic Liturg c 33. p. 503. in Bibl. S Pat. edit 1. in his exposition The Priest giues God thankes and offers supplication laying downe the causes of the thankesgiuing and the matter of the supplication The causes of thankesgiuing are the Saints The matter of the supplication are they who are not yet consummate but haue need of prayer For which Saints he offers this reasonable seruice as A THANKES GIVING to God and aboue all the rest for the B. Mother of God who exceedes all sanctity * Nihil pro eis orat Therefore the Priest PRAIES FOR NOTHING for them but rather praies to them that he may be holpen by their praiers * Haec quidem verba habent supplicationeÌ„ ostendunt autem etiam gratiarum actionem Deum praedicant These wordes containe supplication but shew thankesgiuing and praise God the benefactor of mankinde by remembring the persons whom he hath sanctified and almost consummated saying Giue vs the grace which already thou hast giuen the Saints to sanctifie vs as thou hast sanctified them before who are of the same kinde with vs. It was not therefore with an opinion of purgatory that the ancient praied for the dead but in expectation of the resurrection and in remembrance of Gods goodnesse toward them who had begun to glorifie them the consummation whereof they desired For it was a general opinioÌ„ of the Church of those times that the soules of the Saints departed saw not God nor should see him by beatificall vision till the day of iudgement in which regard they praied for the dead that their glorie might be consummate as all faithfull people pray for that good which they beleeue is to come the certaine fruition whereof they apprehend Bartlemew Medina writing vpon Thomas i Bart. Medin 12. qu. 4. art 5. p. 56. edit Bergom an 1586. saies that Almost all the ancient Fathers Iames in his Liturgie Ireneus Iustine Tertullian Clemens Origen Lactantius Victorine Prudentius Ambrose Chrysostome Augustine Theodorit Arethas Oecumenius Theophylactus Euthymius Bernard at the first sight but in the scanning of their wordes both he and the rest of his fellowes bewray it to be at the second sight too deny that the soules of the Saints see God vntill the day of iudgement The like is testified by k Sixt. Senens Bibl. lib. 6. ann 345. Perer. in Gen. l. 3 n. 45. Bellarm. â—e eccl triumph cap. 1. Vieg in Apoc. pag. 334. Riber ibi pag. 198. lun tom 2. pag. 1587. others the triall whereof the curious reader may see in Sixtus Senensis who hath collected together both the names and wordes of the Fathers to that effect that it is the vainest conceit that can be to imagine the ancient Church by praying for the dead intended a Purgatory when they assumed it for certaine that the dead came not into the presence of God till the last day l Luce clarius constat quia perfectorum animae mox vt huius carnis exeunt in celestibus sedibus recipiuntur Flor. Magistr exposit Missae pag. 65â— Which being an error no maruell if they erred in what they built vpon it nothing being sound that is built on a false foundation CHAP. LVIII 1. The Popes Supremacy 2. Single life of votaries 3. The worship of images 4. The Merite of workes 5. The sacrifice of the Masse 6. And the Popish doctrine touching originall sinne all of them innouations 5. The disagreement of Papists in their religion 7. And namely in their doctrine of originall sinne A. D. Secondly he names the Popes Supremacy which he 1 White pag. 376. saieth Pag. 288. began in Boniface the third But how false his assertion is appeareth by that which is shewed by not onely Catholicke but also Protestant Authors Thirdly he nameth Priests marriages to haue bene first restrained by Siricius This also to be false he may learne by 2 Concil Carth 2. can 2 see Prot. apol tr 1 sec 7 nu 3. the Councel of Carthage which signifieth that Priests were restrained from company of wiues long before Siricius his daies euen by the Apostles themselues Siricius might vpon occasion renew the prohibition as also Gregory the seuenth might but the first Authors of that doctrine or practise they were not Fourthly he nameth worship of images to haue bene first brought in by the Nicen Councell But this Councell was so farre from being 3 See Prot. apol tr 1. sec 3. n. 12. the first author of this doctrine as it expressely saith it followed in this point the doctrine of the holy Fathers and Tradition of the Catholicke Church in which the holy Ghost doth inhabite Concerning that which M. White saith 4 White pag. 378. Conc. Nicen 2. touching images see Bellarmine de imag C 8. Fiftly he nameth the doctrine 5 White p. 379. See Bellar. l. 5. de iustif c 2. 3 4 Greg. de Val. tom 2. disp 8. q. 6. p. 2. 4. of Merite of workes to haue begun lately by
A wonder not farre from Rome Writers not putting their names to their bookes censured by the Iesuites The Popes Iester The name of Minister and Priest Church the pillar of truth The way of Catholicke discipline is the way of the Scripture The Iesuites Method in perswading to Papistry The manner of A. D. his Replying and his promise to raile Chap. 2. The Papists trampling of the Scriptures and preferring their Church The Church of Rome touched in her honesty and reputed for a whore The conditions of a whore Chap. 3. The order of the Iesuites why and to what purpose erected by the Pope they are that to the Pope that the Ianisaries are to the Turke Their aboadments Chap. 4 Some examples of the Iesuites rapine Touching the present Pope Paule 5. and his nephew Burghesi The Iesuites deuouring those that entertaine thē Chap. 5. Touching the rapine and couetousnesse of the Romish Cleargy And their single life and what the world hath thought thereof Chap. 6. Touching the turbulency of our Iesuites and Maspriests in the State and their vnthankefulnesse to the King The seditious doctrine of the Church of Rome leading to all disobedience against the Magistrate and rebellion whēsoeuer occasion shall serue Tyrones rebellion and the Spanish inuasion promoted by the Pope A Catalogue of about forty Emperors Kings and Princes destroyed or vexed by the Pope and his Cleargy A consideration vpon the doctrine of the Popes power to depose kings Chap. 7. Concerning the doctrine of Merits taught in the Church of Rome and touching the Bull of Pius and Gregory against Michael Bayus the Deane of Louane Chap. 8. The Papacy brought in by Sathan The Iesuits spirit of contradiction The Church of Rome reuolted The fiue Patriarkes were equall at the first Plaine Scripture against the Papacy The ignorance of Popish laity Corruption of writings by the Papists Reformation desired long before it came Aduice giuen to A.D. Chap. 9. The Apocrypha not accounted Canonicall Scripture Papists professing to expound against the Fathers The new English translation of the Bible Traditions equalled with the holy Scripture About the erring of Councels And the sufficiencie of the Scriptures Chap. 10. The practise of the Papists in purging bookes The sacrifice of the Masse and reall presence denied Points of Papists absurd The Pope Lords it ouer all Papists need pay no debts May be traitors to murder Princes Iesuites plots in the powder-treason The Popes dispensing with sinne A meditation for all Papists Chap. 11. The Papists manner of dealing with immodesty and vncharitablenesse Briarly and Walsinghams bookes noted Some reports of the Papists meeknesse and mildnesse Hunt a Seminary arraigned at Lancaster The dumbe cattle slaughtered in Lancash The generall desire of vs all to reduce them to charity Chap. 12. Touching the ignorance that Papistrie hath bred among people Their barbarous manner of praying auoched Of Iohn the Almoner a legend The manner how a certaine Priest baptised The Replies zeale for recusants of the better sort A Lancash gentleman alledged by the Reply A note of a French Knight The successe of preaching in Lancash Chap. 13. Touching prayer to Saints Mediation of redemption and intercession Bonauentures Psalter Christ the onely mediator of intercession Reasons why we desire not the dead to pray for vs as we do the liuing The prayers of a Friar and an Archbishop It cannot be shewed that the dead heare vs. Deuices of the Schoolemen to shew how they heare vs. God not like an earthly King In their Saint-inuocating they Platonize Men equalled with Christ Chap. 14. More touching the worship of Saints The same words vsed to Saints that are to God The formall reason of worship The harsh praiers made to Saints how excused Nauarres forme of deuotion Counterfeits bearing the name of Fathers S. Austines doctrine to vse no mediator but Christ Chap. 15. The Iesuits insolency censured Note bookes A relation shewing how the Iesuites traine vp their nouices to dispute The doctrine of the Iesuites touching formall lies and equiuocation The Repliars motion to Protestant Ministers answered Chap. 16. Touching assurance of grace and beleeuing a mans owne saluation Perfection of the Scripture and necessity of the Church Ministry How the iustified conclude their saluation from the Scripture The iustified haue the assurance of faith This is declared full assurance voide of doubting taught by the most in the Church of Rome Touching perseuerance Chap. 17. Concerning points fundamentall and not fundamentall the distinction expounded and defended Who shall iudge what is fundamentall and what not A iest at the election of Pope Leo the x. Chap. 18. Touching the perpetuall virginity of Marie The celebration of Easter The baptisme of infants The Iesuits halting And the Scriptures sufficiency Chap. 19. How the Church proues the Scripture The Iesuites plainely confesse that the Scripture alone proues it selfe to be Gods word The Scriptures are principles indemonstrable in any superior science All other testimonies resolued into the testimony of the Scripture Touching euidence and the compossibility thereof with faith Chap. 20 A continuation of the same matter touching the Churches authority in giuing testimony of the Scriptures The Scripture proues it selfe to be Gods word The light of the Scripture How we are assured of the Scripture by the Spirit The reason why some see not the light of the Scripture The Papists retyring to the Spirit And casting off the Fathers A Councell is aboue the Pope The Pope may erre Chap. 21. Which is the Militant Church And the Catholicke The Church of the elect inuisible A rancid conceite of the Iesuite Chap. 22. Reports made by Papists that the Protestants are without religion They hold the iustification of the Gentiles without the Gospell or knowledge of Christ No saluation but in one true religion The Repliars tergiuersation Chap. 23. Touching the implicit faith that is taught in the Church of Rome How defined by them In what sense the Protestants mislike or allow it Arguments made for it answered The ancient Church allowed it not Chap. 24. Touching the necessitie and nature of the Rule of faith And how it is reuealed and communicated to all men that none need to despaire Chap. 25. The text of 1. Tim. 2.4 God wils all men to be saued c. expounded The diuerse expositions that are giuen of those words Gods antecedent will as they call it is not his will formally The antecedent and consequent will of God expounded diuerse wayes Chap. 26. The properties of the rule of faith described None follow priuate spirits more then our aduersaries How the Rule must be vnpartial and of authority Chap. 27. The Repliars tergiuersation The state of the question touching the sufficiencie of the Scripture alone and the necessity of the Church ministery The speeches of diuers Papists against the perfection of the Scripture In what sence the Scripture alone is not sufficient Chap. 28. Touching our English translations of the Bible their sinceritie and infalliblenesse How
they to whom this was commanded The Apostles and their successors And who be these successors He that now holds the first sea of Rome he that holds the second of Constantinople he of Alexandria and Antioch and he of IerusaleÌ„ This is the fiuefold top that is the power of the fiue Patriarkes of the Church in their power is the iudgement of diuine doctrines This man and his name stands in l Menolog Grae Nouemb. 11. tom 4. Bibl. SS Patrum the Greeke Kalendar in his time to fit the controuersie depending betweene the student and me thought all the Patriarkes together to haue the right of iudgement and not he of Rome alone which shewes that it is true which the Cardinall of Cusa m Cusan conc l. 2. c. 12. writes that by custome of mens obeying him he hath gotten beyond the bounds of ancient obseruation And so the head being departed I hope the bodie stayed not behind A.D. And § 11. where he affirmeth Pag. 28. that Protestants haue the Scripture in manifest places free from all ambiguitie for their side 4 If this be not true say directly why do you teach most blasphemously that the Scripture is so obscure so defectiue so dangerous for the people to meddle with Why do you forbid the people the reading of it in the mother tongue What Protestant if he would studie to do it of purpose can speake plainer then they against n Exod. 20.4 Deut. 4.15 images o Apoc 19.10 22.8 the worshipping of Saints p Act. 10.25 the Popes pride q 1. Cor. 14. Latin prayers and Seruice r Luc. 17.10 Phil. 3.12 Merit and perfection of workes Å¿ Psal 37.37 Apoc. 14.13 Purgatorie t Luc. 22.25 the Popes primacie u 1 Cor. 10 16. Transubstantiation w 1. Sam. 26.8 Rom. 13.1 Deposing and murdering Kings x 1. Tim. 4.3 Distinction of meates for conscience what finally can be spoken plainer in defence of y 1. Tim. 3.2.11.12 Priests mariage or to shew the Pope and his crew to be z 2. Thesâ—â—3 Apoc. 17.18 that Antichrist c. The Scripture therefore is manifest enough for vs but a Hos de expr Dei verb. our aduersaries haue a rule that the Scripture as it is alledged by Protestants is the word of the diuell and therefore be it neuer so manifest yet it must not be manifest when we alledge it A.D. And againe Pag. 28. that Protestants haue the principles of religion contained in the Lords prayer the Creed the ten Commandements leading directly to euery point of Protestancie and that for this reason the Church of Rome forbiddeth the reading and exercise of these things to the people lest they should see so much 5 As for example to pray to God alone and to no other for the Lords prayer teacheth vs to pray to him that is our Father to whom it belongs to forgiue vs our trespasses and whose is the kingdome the power and the glorie all prayers being to be made after this forme we are directly lead from praying to Saints to whom these things agree not to call on God alone Secondly the second commandement leades directly against image-worship and that is the reason why the Papists haue not onely forbidden the reading of it but also a In their Catechismes Van. Canis Ledesm Office of our Lady and other put it cleane out in their ordinary Catechismes Thirdly the Creed saying that Christ being ascended into heauen sits at the right hand of God from whence he shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead teaches plainly to beleeue that he comes not downe euery day to be eaten in the Sacrament vnder the formes of bread and wine In like maner we affirme these three the Creed the Lords prayer and the ten Commandements to be such a rule as serues to conclude in true and perfect consequence whatsoeuer we hold against our aduersaries and whether the Church of Rome haue not forbidden the people to vse them I referre my selfe to the times of King Henrie the 8 what time the people with incredible ioy and admiration first heard them in the English tongue I referre me to the manner of their praying mentioned b Ch. 12. hereafter which had not bene if they had bene permitted the vse of these things And because the Iesuite denies this let him say truly what incouragement haue they giuen the common people to reade the Scriptures to vse the Lords prayer and the rest in their mother-tongue to exercise themselues diligently in these things Let them shew vs the time when the words wherewith the benefite that hath ensued thereby No they haue reuiled and reproched these things and bred a hatred of them in the people and all to keepe them in ignorance my selfe continued many yeares in a parish where there were not a few Recusants and in all the number I did not in the time though I made triall of many finde one that could say and pronounce these things in the English tongue vnlesse he were which few were book-learned Among many other I came to an aged womans house and desiring her to repeate vnto me the Creed she said it in fustian Latin of that sort which I haue expressed c Ch. 12. a litle below and assaying to teach it her in English she answered that seeing her Latin creed had serued her turne to this age she would now learne no new And when I asked her who Iesus Christ was that the Creed said was borne of the virgin Mary she answered she could not tell but by our deare Ladie it is sure some good thing or it should neuer haue bin put in the Creed but what it is I cannot tell you for I was neuer taught so much my selfe This woman afterward heard me willingly and reioyced to heare the vnderstanding of these things and reported strange things of the barbarous ignorance and irreligion of those times wherein she was brought vp The experience that we haue of these things shewes how and in what sort Papists exercise their people in the principles of Religion and my owne particular knowledge hereof obtained by conuersing diuers yeares among them is such that all the Seminary Priests and Iesuites in England if there were ten thousand of them shal neuer outstare it with their great lookes A.D. And againe Pag. 28. that the ancient Fathers are for Protestants in expresse termes in all things that they held constantly and certainly with one consent and that in the principall points touching Scripture Iustification Merit of workes Images and all the rest they write most clearely with Protestants 6 This I shewed throughout my writing in euery point I stood vpon and if it be not so shrinke not but answer why haue you corrupted the writing of the Fathers d De vnit eccl in the Rom. Antw. prints and in all that follow them Cyprian to auoide his euidence against the
Pater noster But is Sir Minister so bold as to charge any that are well borne would to God Sir Minister had not seene Dianaes nakednes it would haue staied a great deale of barking that hath bene after him YET WHAT HE WRIT IS STIL TRVE IF ALL THE SEMINARIES IN ENGLAND HAD IT IN CHASE I wil seeke the disgrace of no mans person of any degree I know the countrey to haue many good Gentlefolke in it I onely report the barbarisme that Popery hath bred in such as follow it and though I haue no acquaintance or knowledge with all yet d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Eustath Iliad the experience of some allowes me to speake as I do that this ignorance is general and the most yea of the better sort addicted to Popery are plunged in it 3 And that which the Iesuit reports my Country-man a maÌ„ of good esteeme place said of my booke is not greatly materiall supposing some Popish Gentleman or woman said so For besides himselfe whosoeuer he be that countrey hath many noble godly Gentlemen as good as he wherof some haue seene my Booke and reported otherwise both of it and me and it may be the Gentleman alleadged if he were well examined would prooue as learned as the Knight that Claudius Espencaeus e In 2. Tim. pag. 118. telles of who being demaÌ„ded his beleefe touching the holy Ghost answered he knew not whether there were an holy Ghost or no. And my comfort is that when this present place that I now write shall come into their hand they will call to minde the trauell I tooke among them with all instance and lenity to do good and the scandalous and lying reports wherewith Seminaries vse to defend themselues they know me and Seminaries and Popish Gentlemen and haue ability to compare vs one with another in the meane time I esteeme the man and his deposition alike he a man of no great esteeme that hath not so much as a name and will be commanded by a poore student to stand vpon the stage like a ridle for all readers to guesse at and his deposition is sutable when he taxeth a man with shamelesnesse and impudencie for noting that which a thousand to one will be prooued by his wife and possible by himselfe if they vse to say any praiers at all 4 Whereas I said also this generall barbarousnesse did abound in the people vntil it pleased God by the Ministrie of his Gospell to conuert them he replies that this seldome happens to sound Catholiks to be conuerted or rather peruerted by the Protestant Ministery I answer for let the truth be knowne in euery thing that I haue affirmed that the Protestant Ministery hath not bene fruitlesse among the people but hath most happily conuerted thousands and that countrey some part of it especially where the word hath bene more frequent yeelds at this day and long hath done as many and as sound professors of the truth as any part of our kingdome And in the backwardest part thereof many people haue ioyfully receiued the truth and acknowledged the errors wherein the guile of Seminaries haue holden them and many that appeared to be souÌ„d Catholiks haue done this I heard an aged yeoman after a Sermon effectually preached * At Gooznar neare to Prâ—ston in a parish where Seminaries most haunt when the preacher had done stand up in his seate and desiring his neighbours to make meanes to obtaine a competent Preacher into the place professe It was true the Preacher said and that his old religion as he termed it had allowed them to liue in all naughtinesse This sheweth that Popish superstition would soone be rooted out there and those locusts soone be blowne away if the word were effectually preached among them CHAP. XIII Touching praier to Saints 1. Mediation of Redemption intercessioÌ„ 2. BonaueÌ„tures Psalter 3. Christ the only Mediator of intercessioÌ„ 4. 5. 6. Reasons why we desire not the dead to pray for vs as we do the living 5. The praiers of a Friar and an Archbishop 6. 7. It cannot be shewed that the dead heare vs. 8. Deuices of the Schoolemen to shew how they heare vs. 10. God not like an earthly king 10. 11. In their Saint-inuocation they Platonize 12. Men equalled with Christ A. D. But let us see what M. White bringeth to giue credit to this his incredible narration Pag. 40. and to take away the wonder of his countrymen who admire his shameles impudency in relating home-matters so contrary to their certaine and direct knowledge This brutish condition of their people saith he may the better be credited and is lesse to be wondered at because the open practise of their Church giues them example and encourages them by their Idolatry and superstition towards the Saints departed For how can that people discerne their ignorance whose Pastours euen before their eies in their open Seruice and printed bookes serue the Saints and worship them with the same seruice that they giue to Christ This saith he I offer for the seauenth motiue to induce any Papist to suspect his owne religion For it cannot be the faith of Christ that takes his honour and giues it to another In their seruice and prayers the Virgin Mary is made an intercessour for sinne as if Christ were not the sole Mediatour vnlesse the merits and mediation of another did come betweene These are M. Whites words In which he frameth a farre more grieuous accusation against vs then the former as though not onely the common people or the most euen of our men and women well borne and brought vp for ciuill qualities and of good place in the countrey were in manner aforesaid brutishly ignorant but that the open practise of our Church giues them example and encourages them by Idolatry and superstition towards Saints departed in that in our open Seruice our Pastours serue the Saints with the same seruice that they giue to Christ taking his honour and giuing it to another and in our seruice and prayers making the Virgin Mary intercessour for sinne as if Christ were not the sole Mediatour c. A grieuous accusation assuredly if it be proued true and no lesse grosse slander if it be as I doubt not euidently to prooue it vntrue As concerning the lâ—st part of this accusation of the B. Virgin Mary being made intercessour as though Christ were not sole Mediatour I haue answered sufficiently in relating and refuting M. Wottons vntruths where I shew that Saints in heauen or men liuing on earth being made intercessours doe not hinder Christ to be sole Mediatour 1 THe Iesuite so relates and confutes my words as if I had onely obiected some small superstition in praying to the Virgin Mary and no more whereas the bare inuocating of her is the least thing that I stand vpon We vrge the praying to her in * They say she is God Dea mater Paul Cortes in sent pag. 65. Lips virg
vs where is there among all the Texts that can be alledged one rule or example that we should pray thus to a liuing maÌ„ as they do to a Saint Saue me ô Sauior redeeme me ô redeemer and as is the praiers that I alledged If one of the theeues vpon the Crosse when our Sauiour died should thus haue praied to b Ioh. 19.25 the holy Virgine standing by as the Friar lately did in France when he was to be executed for murdering a man to haue his wife c The praier of a Friar vpon the scaffold when he died for a murther in France an 1609. Boter comment l. 16. p. 300. But ô thou the solace of such as are in miserie our Loadstarre in the middest of this raging sea the aduocate of men the Arke of the Testament the altar of sinners by thy suffrages ô Virgine effect with thy Sonne that I may haue my desire would the Iesuits I maruell commend his deuotion as the reporter doth the Friars zeale or if this example fume into the Iesuits head were it lawfull for a man vpon his death-bed to inuocate the liuing standing by as the d Fra. Ximenius of Toledo Gomec de reb Ximen l. 7. pag. 242. great Archbishop did the dead when he died himselfe to be his Patronesse All the Saints but aboue all the mother of God Michael the Archangell Peter and Paule Iames and S. Francis or if at an open Sessions at the Councell of Trent Sato or Mus or one of the Friars should haue begun hs Sermon with a praier to Cardinall Barrhomaeo sitting by mutatis mutandis as e Stephanus Arch. PatraceÌ„s in conc Later sub Leo. p. 621. an Archbishop sometime began his at the Councell of Lateran with his f Omnium spleÌ„dot decus perenne Virginum lumen genetrix superni Gloria humani generis Maria Vnica nostri Sola tu Virgo doÌ„inaâ—s astris Sola tu terrae maris atque coeli lumen inceptis faueas rogamus inclita nostris Vt queam sacros reserare sensus qui lateÌ„t chartis nimiuÌ„ seueris ingredi celsae duce te benignae Maenia terrae inuocation of the Blessed Virgine O blessed Charles our Churches hope and glorie of our fading light The best of all our Cardinals in Consistory shining bright Thou onely shewest the way that leads to heauens blisse vertues lore Thy life our safest loadstarre is to guide vs to the heauenly shore I pray thee giue me of thy grace and fill me with thy verities that I may boldly speake in place and beate downe Luthers heresies If I say the Friar should haue made such a prayer to him would not his fellow Cardinals haue enuied his deitie thought that inuocation would haue come soone enough after his death when he had bene Sainted The liuing therefore are not praied vnto nor intreated to pray to God or make intercession for vs nor any waies made mediatours by their intercession and merits as the dead are for that were against the office of Christ but only as feeling members of this state that see and know the wants each of other and that haue a calling from God thereto they ioyne their praiers to the rest of the body no mans merits or aduocation being interposed but euerie one with and for others immediatly flying to Iesus Christ 6 A third reason why it is lawfull to intreate the praiers of the liuing rather then the dead is for that the liuing whoÌ„ we intreate to pray for vs vnderstand and see our particular wants and are in state to take knowledge of our desire to be praied for as when Saint Paule bad the people pray for him they heard and vnderstood him what he desired which the Saints in heaven departed though full of glorie and great indowments do not And here it is not enough to bring coniectures and with shew of wordes and disputations to leade our iudgement as in this cause our aduersaries haue taken great paines to pull vpon themselves a learned error but afore I can pray in this fashion to the dead with faith if all other difficulties were cleared I must haue a sure ground in my conscience that they heare me And he that will perswade me to beleeue they do must not come with Iffs and And 's and Metaphysicall speculations and the seeming opinions of men but with that which may bring full assurance and may support faith as the Holy Ghost doth g 1. Tim. 1.15 This is a true saying and worthie of all men to be receiued h Ioh. 4.22 We worship that we know i 2. Cor. 4 3. We approoue ourselues to euery mans conscience Let it be made thus sure vnto vs that when I pray the Saints heare me and it shall willingly be receiued and beleeued This reasoÌ„ doth not immediatly proceed to shew that praying to the dead robbes Christ of his office but onely that it is against faith which being shewed thence it will easily be concluded that then Christ is robbed of his office because all prayer against faith is against Christs mediatorship in some part of the latitude thereof Now if it so please the reader let vs see what assurance the Church of Rome can giue that the Saints know our praiers 7 First it is cleare that in all the Scripture there is nothing to prooue it but the contrary For k 2. Reg. 22.20 wheÌ„ Iosiah should die God told him his eies should not see the euill which he would bring vpon Ierusalem And Salomon l Eccl. 9 5. saies the dead know nothing at all And m Es 63 16. the Prophet in a praier he makes to God saies Thou art our Father though Abraham be ignorant of vs and Israel knowes vs not the which texts shew manifestly that the dead haue as little knowledge of our state here as we haue of theirs there Or if it were otherwise God would somewhere haue reuealed it especially the reuelation thereof being so necessary for the confirmation of this point touching inuocation which n Superfluum videtur abeis ordinariè petere vs pro nobis oreni quia non possunt ordinariè cognoscere quid agamus in particulari Bellar. de purgat l. 2. c. 15. §. praetere a animae by the Iesuites owne confession is in vaine where they do not ordinarily as in Purgatory heare our prayers the which for the most part being seated in o Plerunque hoc negotium plus gemitibus quam sermonibus agitur plus fletâ— quam affatu August epist 121. c. 10. the heart and thence immediatly without any noise of words ascending vp who can vnderstand them but he that searches the heart which Philo p 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Philo iudae pag. 328. Paris sayes is the musicall and loud instrument of our voice and is heard by no mortall creature but onely by him that is immortall and vnbegotten 8 Secondly our aduersaries could neuer giue themselues satisfaction
side and checks the Pope and all his counsels thereby to inuite them to peace and vnity they know that we inuocate one God and beleeue all the articles of the Creed and rule of faith and preach and presse godlinesse of life without partiality punishing sinne and rewarding well doing as much as can be done in any kingdome or state that themselues allow they haue seene within the memory of man innumerable soules giuing their life for the testimony of that we beleeue onely we differ in diuers articles which potent and skilfull aduersaries at seuerall times in ages past brought into the Church let our writings be vnpartially weighed and the Scriptures be diligently read and the first Antiquity well considered and it will appeare they are in an error and kept in bondage thereto onely through the subtilty and cunning of their masse Priests God of his goodnesse open their eyes and eares that they may embrace the truth and come forth of Babylon and shaking off their superstition content themselues with the Testament of Iesus Christ to whom be all honour and power ascribed for euer Amen xij Maij 1614. A Table of the Questions and Controuersies either purposely and largely handled or by occasion briefly falling out betweene my Aduersary and me in this Defence A ANtichrist and his persecution with the time of his Reigne as the Papists hold it pag. 361. and 378. Apocrypha not Canonicall Scripture pag. 61. and 62. in the marg Assurance of grace and saluation Chap. 16. Antecedent and Consequent will of God pag. 212. Authoritie of the Church and Scripture Chap. 30. nu 4. B Baptisme of infants by Scripture pag. 151. nu 3. The Bull against Mich. Baius pag. 48. nu 5. C Catholicke discipline what pag. 5. Church defined and distinguished pag. 365. nu 2. The visiblenesse of the Church at large Chap. 37.38.39 In what sense the Church Militant is sometime inuisible pag. 355. 360. 373. Hypocrites not true members of the Church pag. 369. Where the Church was before Luther 386. 390. 394. How the Church is subiect to error pag. 421. nu 2. Councels subiect to error Chap. 47. Charles the Emperor his booke against Images pag. 458. nu 5. Conception of the B. Virgin in sin Chap. 49. Communion in one kinde Chap. 55. E Celebration of Easter pag. 150. nu 2. Erre the Church may erre pag. 421. nu 2. And how Councels Chap. 47. Errors came in by degrees into the Church pag. 519. nu 1. F Fathers their consent with Protestants pag. 410. and Chap. 45. They professed not Papistrie Chap. 43. The Papists manner of reiecting them pag. 177. Fundamentall and not Fundamentall points of faith Chap. 17. Frankford Councell against images Chap. 48. G Grace assurance of grace Chap. 16. Gregory what faith he taught pag. 433. H Hypocrites no true members of the Church pag. 369. Hildebrands doctrine touching the Popes power ouer Princes pag. 27. nu 2. inde I Iesuites when and to what purpose ordained pag. 13. The maintainers of turbulencie and treasons pag. 25. and 81. Charged with purging bookes pag. 56. and 72. with inhumanitie pag. 87. with training vp their people in ignorance pag. 54. and 92. Inuocation of Saints by praier Chap. 13. and 14 Implicite faith and all the doctrine of the Papists touching the same Chap. 23. Image worship and the doctrine of Rome touching the same pag. 453. and 528. and Chap. 53. Iustification of the Gentiles Chap. 22. nu 1. L The Laitie forbidden the Scripture pag. 479. Permitted in ancient time to reade them Chap. 51. Luther whence he had his assurance and who taught him pag. 320. nu 8. His reiecting the Fathers pag. 310. nu 2. He sought reformation with all humility pag. 317. Where the Church was afore his time pag. 386. and 390. and 394. M Marriage of Priests Chap. 52. and Chap. 58. nu 2. Masse Priests see Iesuites Masse pag. 74. and Chap. 58. nu 5. Merits Chap. 7. and Chap. 58. nu 4. N The second Nicen Councell Chap. 48. O Originall sin pag. 530. nu 6. P Peters being at Rome and being Bishop of Rome pag. 534. nu 2. Pope how many Princes he hath bin Traitor to pag. 34. nu 3. The Papists make him the rule of faith and iudge of all pag. 67. and 79. and 299. and Chap. 34. and 35. His supremacy chap. 54. and pag. 525. His succeeding of Peter pag. 537. nu 2. and 3. He hath erred and bene an Hereticke euen in Cathedra pag. 543. nu 7. Purging of bookes pag. 56. and 72. Praier to Saints Chap. 13. and 14. For the dead Chap. 57. nu 3. Protestant religion whether it bring men to desperation p. 401. nu 8. Pardons Chap. 57. nu 2. Purgatory Chap. 57. nu 2. Priests mariage Chap. 52. and Chap. 58. nu 2. Predestination whether for grace foreseene pag. 220. nu 10. inde Predetermination of mans will by Gods will pag. 236. nu 21. Papists cast off the Fathers pag. 177. maintaine saluation without the knowledge of Christ pag. 162. haue changed the ancient faith pag. 339. purged the ancient writings pag. 56. and 72. R Rome a whore pag. 11. n. 2. Romane Clergy their couetousnesse Ch. 4. nu 1. and Ch. 5. Their charity pag. 23. nu 3. Reall presence pag. 76. Rule of Faith and the properties thereof Ch. 26. and Ch. 35 nu 6. S Scripture put downe pag. 9. and 65. and 79. and 250. Translation thereof into the vulgar tongue pag. 63. and Ch. 51. Such translations forbidden the laity pag. 479. nu 2. Scripture proues and expounds it selfe Ch. 19. and 20. and 32. The sufficiency thereof against Traditions Ch. 27. and 30. and 31. and pag. 274. Obscurity and perspicuity of it Ch. 29. The light of it pag. 280. What certainty or infallibility there is in translations Ch. 28. How particular men are assured of the sense of the Scripture pag. 314. Spirits priuate Ch. 32. and pag. 315. Saints their inuocation Ch. 13. and 14. How they are supposed to heare vs. pag. 105. Sufficient grace whether giuen to all pag. 231. nu 15. Succession of the true Faith in the Church how it was Ch. 44. Succession of the Romish faith set forth in Catalogues how answered pag. 406. Seruice in an vnknowne language Ch. 50. T Transubstantiation Ch. 56. Traditions preferred and Scripture put downe pag. 9. 65. 79. 250. Treasonable doctrine and traiterous practises defended by Papists pag. 27. inde Translation of the Scripture into the mother tongues pag. 63. See Scripture V Vacancy in the Sea of Rome pag. 541. nu 5. Virginity of the B. virgine Mary pag. 149. nu 1. Woman Pope pag. 542. nu 6. Scripture expounded at large 1. Tim. 2.4 God will all men to be saued pag. 210. nu 4. 2. Tim. 3.15 All Scripture is inspired of God c. Chap. 31. 1. Cor. 14. Ch. 50. THE CONTENTS OF THE SEuerall Chapters of this Booke CHAP. 1. THe title of A. D. his Reply
faith or needfull to be followed And so from that place to pag. 57 I disputed that the Scripture ALONE is the rule of faith that is to say That rule which my Aduersary in his fourth ground had said God had prouided whereby euery man learned and vnlearned may sufficiently be instructed WHAT is to be holden for the true faith Now he complaines that the State is peruerted the question not being whether Scripture be the rule of faith but whether Scripture alone be the rule and meane ordained of God to breed all faith And he notes two points wherein it is peruerted First in that I so affirme and defend the Scripture to be the rule as if he and his sectaries excluded it from being the rule in any sort which he sayes they do not For they hold the Scripture as propounded by the Church to be part of it I answer that I knew well enough they confessed the Scripture to be part of the rule and the Diuine doctrine which is the whole rule to be some of it written But I knew also that they denied it to be the whole rule ioyning therewith vnwritten traditions and the Popes Decretals which they call Church authority I knew also they allowed it to be no part of the rule but as and in such sence as the Church of Rome should please to propound it and I saw his conclusion in termes denying the Scripture alone to be the rule whereby men may sufficiently be instructed WHAT the faith is therefore I disputed directly opposite to all this that the Scripture alone without traditions is the whole rule to shew vs WHAT is to be holden for faith and nothing but the Scripture this is close to the question For albeit he yeelds it to be the rule in a sort because as his Church propounds it it containes part of the rule yet he denies it to be that whole and entire rule that his conclusion inquires of and so is to be disputed against as well as if he denied it to be any part of the rule at all Againe he holds two things First affirmatiuely that the Scripture is one part of the rule then negatiuely that the Scripture alone is not all the rule Both these are contradictory to my assertion The Scripture alone is the rule My assertion therefore affirming what he denies and denying what he affirmes containes the true state of the question and his inuoluing the matter with all this cauilling tends onely to the couering of his doctrine the loathsome visage whereof he is ashamed should be seene 3 The second point wherein he sayes the question is peruerted is in that I take the rule of faith otherwise then he doth For whereas he by that word rule meanes such a rule as not onely is sufficient to REVEALE all diuine truths that are to be beleeued but also to BREED or produce in vs the faith whereby we beleeue them I he sayes vnderstand such a rule onely as is sufficient to reueale the diuine verities though it be not sufficient to breed in vs faith and assent thereunto And it is true that I vnderstand such a rule indeed the Church wherein I liue onely beleeuing the sufficiency of the Scripture to containe all the obiect of faith but not to enable vs to beleeue it or vnderstand it ordinarily without the ministry of the Church and other meanes But this peruerts not the question * The state of the question touching Scripture ALONâ— for about the meanes there is no question but the question is whether Scripture alone excluding all Church traditions and authority comprehend the whole obiect or matter of faith that is to say All that we are bound to know beleeue and doe for our saluation though it be granted that to breed or produce faith and knowledge of that which is in the Scripture the Ministry of the Church and the helpe of Gods Spirit and our owne industry must concurre For our Aduersaries deny this and hold their runagate traditions and Church authority to be necessary not onely for the expounding and confirming to vs that which is in the Scripture if any one chance to deny it or not to see it but for the supplying of infinite articles of faith which are no waies at all comprised in the Scripture but vpon the said authority are to be receiued as well as that which is reuealed in the Scripture The Iesuite speakes as if he thought his Church authority to consist more in breeding faith and leading men to beleeue what is written then in adding any thing to the measure of the diuine verities contained in the Scripture and indeed sometime there be of his side that will plainely say so He that writ the defence of the Censure a Def. of the Cens pag. 141. NOTE THIS and inquire whether all Papists will stand to it sayes it is to be noted that the question betweene vs and the Protestants is of EXPRESSE SCRIPTVRE ONELY and not of any far fet place which by interpretation may be applied to a controuersie For this contention began betweene vs vpon this occasion that when we alledged diuers weighty places and reasons out of the Scripture for proofe of inuocation of Saints praier for the dead Purgatory and some other controuersies our aduersaries reiected them for that they did not plainely and expresly decide the matter Whereupon came this question whether all matters of beleefe are plainely and expresly in Scripture or not which they affirme and we deny And this he sayes is is the true state of the question Gretser b Defens Bellar tom 1. l. 4. c. 4. p. 1598. sayes These things may be proued by Scripture but not sufficiently not effectually by Scripture alone without tradition but onely probably The which if my aduersary and his Church did hold constantly and in good earnest I would confesse I had peruerted the state of the question But they do not but hold many things belonging to faith to be wanting and no way at all neither openly nor expresly nor consequently contained in the Scripture Dominicus Bannes c D. Dann 22. Tho. p. 302. All things which pertaine to Catholicke faith are not contained in the Canonicall books either manifestly or obscurely nor all those things which Christ and his Apostles taught and ordained for the instructing of his Church and confirming of the faith were committed to the holy Scriptures and the contrary is open heresie Melchior Canus d Can. loc p. 151 There are many things belonging to the doctrine and faith of Christians which are contained in the sacred Scriptures neither manifestly nor obscurely Cardinall Hosius e Hos confess Polon p. 383. The greater part of the Gospell by a great deale is come to vs by tradition very little of it being written in the Scripture Peresius f Peres de tradit p. 4. Tradition is taken so that it is distinguisht against the doctrine which is found in the Canonicall bookes of the
nisi ille ad imitandum proponitur qui despectis Angelorum legionibus secum socialiter constitutis vt solus omnibus praeesse videretur Ep. 38. Ego fidenter dico quia quisquis so vniuersalem Sacerdotem vocat vel vocare desiderat in elaâ—ione sua Antichristum praecurrit l. 6. ep 30. called a proud pompaticall prophane sacrilegious Antichristian and diuellish title and the man that should assume it a follower of the diuel and the forerunner of Antichrist b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euseb l. 5. c. 17. spoken of Montanus FASTING by distinction of meates and daies c Sectae Simonis â—uisse videtur soâ—ta quaedam Mâ—rcellina quae colebat imagines Iesu Pauli Homeri adorado incensumque ponendo August de haer Irenae l. 1. c 24. Epiph. haer 27. Theodor haer fab l. 1. Jnueni ibi velâ—m habeâ—s imaginem quasi Christs vel Sancti cuiusdam contra authoritatem Scriptiâ—rarum Epiph. ep â—d Ioh. Hicrosol Images d Cathari propter munditiem gl riantes de suis meritis Isido Orig. l. 8. c. 5. Perfection of our workes without sinne and abilitie to keepe the law e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Clem. Rom. constit pag 57. Womens baptizing f Conc. Laod. can 35 Oecum pag 697. Veron graec the worship of Angels g Cruces nec colimus nec optamus Arâ—ob the worshipping of the Crosse h Vâ—rgo erat sed non ad adorationem nobis data Epiph. pag. 344. the worshipping of the virgin Marie i Nec exhorrescunt beatae Trinitatis imaginem facere Euthym. Panopl pag. 690. the Images of the Trinitie k Haereticâ— cum ex Scripturis arguuntur in accusationem ipsarum conuertuntur quasi non rectè habeant nec sint ex authoritate quia vartè sunt dicta quâ—a non possit ex his inueniri veritas abhis qui nesciunt Traditionem Irenae l. 3. c 2. the obscuritie and insufficiencie of the Scripture l Auditores apud eos Manichaeos si vâ—luerint vxores habent quorum nihil faciunt qui vocantur electi August ep 74. the necessitie of single life in the Cleargie and many other points defended by our aduersaries are mentioned and named in the Fathers but it is to shew that they were holden by hereticks and to confute them This first grant I returne my aduersary for a fauour because he hath replied without railing in this Chapter and I do it in the name of all Protestants that hereafter he may not say but they are tractable and wil yeeld much of his Romish religion to be if not defended yet mentioned in the writings of the Fathers Secondly that some ceremonies and doctrines also holden at this day by the Church of Rome which we refuse were held by some particular ancient Fathers and practised in the Church of those times though * It is the rule of Vincentius Lirinensis â—hat what the Fathers thus hold is not the Catholicke faith but what they hold resolutely and with generall consent Monitor c. 39. doubtfully vncertainly and without vniuersalitie and vniformitie and which is chiefly to be obserued by him that wil see the truth otherwise and to other intents then the Church of Rome now holds theÌ„ the reason whereof is manifest For the Apostle m 2. Thess 2.7 sayes the mysterie of iniquitie began to work in his time And n Niceph. l. 4. c 7. Euseb hist l 3 c. 32. Hegesippus that liued immediatly after the Apostles The Church continued a virgin vndefiled as long as the Apostles liued but when that generation was passed the conspiracy of wicked heresie through the seducement of those which taught otherwise tooke beginning And o 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Isid Pelus l. 3 ep 408. pag 668. Isidorus Pelusiota that liued in the fourth age The Church is like a woman fallen from her ancient state and hauing nothing but the signes of it bereaued of her goods through their naughtinesse that held the administration Thus some particular ceremonies and doctrines began to be vsed and got increase with vsing as Prayer for the dead Purgatorie Necessitie of Baptisme for the saluation of infants and not many more doctrines agreeing with the Church of Rome which yet were vsed and holden as I said vncertainly and to other purposes then now they are for it cannot be shewed that they were the resolued doctrine of the Church vniuersally embraced The most that our aduersaries can shew in the writings of antiquitie being some part of their ceremonies as Tapers Crosses Vigils Oile Spittle Commemorations of the dead and such like wherein also they haue altered or forsaken many things as well as we as they haue with vs abandoned some points of their doctrine also which yet p It is coÌ„fessed that all the Fathers held the B. Virgin to haue bin conceiued in originall sinne by Turrecrem de consecr d. 4. Firmissime nu 11. Dom. Ban. part 1 q 1 art 8. dub 5. And most of the Fathers that the soules of the iust see not God till the day of iudgement Sixt Senens bibl l. 6 an 345. Barthol Medin in 12. pag 56. and others whom see below c. 57. n. 3. In which two points the now Church of Rome hath forsaken them by their owne confession they held as well as they did that which the Church of Rome still retaines which proues vnanswerably that it is no disaduantage to our side if some few particular doctrines thus vnsufficiently held be found in the Fathers which we refuse Thirdly we grant that we hold many negatiues against our aduersaries in the Church of Rome which are not expresly controlled or condemned by the Fathers in that maner that we condemne them that is to say directly purposely and namely but onely by discourse and consequence from those truths which they maintaine and those errors which they condemne in the heretiks of their times The reason is because in the Fathers daies such errors now denied and refused by vs were not broached but came vp since and the Fathers could not denie or speake against that which was not then in rerum natura This is the true reason why we denie sundrie things that the Fathers in their time denied not 2 These three things being granted that which we obiect against the Repliers Catalogue is that the ancient Fathers in their writings neither defend nor acknowledge the substantiall articles of Papistry wherein we really differ There is q You mâ—y see it in the Pref. before B. Iewels workes of the last impression And in the Pref. of THE WAY n. 15. And in the Councel of Trent at the end a new Creed made by the Councell of Trent and imposed vpon all men to beleeue the articles whereof are particularly expounded in the decrees and catechisme of the said Councel and in the writings of the moderne Schoole-men and Iesuites LET THEM SHEW IF THEY CAN THAT THE DOCTRINE CONTAINED IN THAT CREED
may define contrary to that they all writ as the B. Virgin not to be conceiued in sin and so they shall beleeue iust that they beleeued not and the direct contrary CHAP. LVII 1 Touching the first coming in of errors into the Church with the persons Time and Place 2 Purgatory and pardons not knowne in the ancient Church nor in the Greeke Church to this day 3 The true reason why the ancient praied for the dead Pag. 287. A. D. To conclude it is not enough for M. White to name these eight or any other points of our doctrine and to say that we hold or practise contrary to the doctrine of the ancient Church but I must require him to set downe the time place persons and other circumstances of this supposed innouation which circumstances are commonly noted in Histories when any such innouation against the vniuersall doctrine of the Church did arise This my demand 1 White Digr 5. pag. 374. M. White who will it seemeth sticke at nothing taketh vpon him to satisfie by naming seauen points of our religion offering to shew the time when and manner how they got into the Church And thereupon first he nameth pardons and purgatory the vse whereof he sayeth came lately into the Church To this I answer first that he nameth not the particular Time Place not Persons that first brought in the vse of pardons and purgatory and so he saieth nothing to the purpose Secondly I answer that our questions is not so much about the vse of pardons and purgatory as whether the doctrine which holdeth purgatory to be and pardons duely vsed to be lawfull came in of late contrary to the former doctrine of the Church Now M. White will neuer be able to shew that that Church did at any time vniuersally beleeue that 2 Concerning praier for the dead which supposeth the beleefe of Purgatory learned Protestants grant it to haue bene general in the Church long before S. Austins time as may be seene in the Protest Apol. tract 1. sect 2. nu 4. purgatory was not or that pardons duely vsed were vnlawfull or that the doctrine concerning the substance of these points was first brought in of late naming the first time place or persons which brought it in contrary to the former faith and shewing who resisted it as an heresie and who continued to resist it 1 HAuing no power to answer the examples I gaue of the Church of Romes now holding contrary to the ancient Church he concludes that it is not enough to name the points or to say they hold contrary to the doctrine of the ancient Church vnlesse I set downe the Time Places Persons and other circumstances of the innouations as Histories vse to note them when any such innouations arises and therefore he must require me to set them downe I answer it is sufficient that I haue shewed the points not to haue bene holden by the ancient Church For if the ancient Church held them not what skills it when or by whom they were brought in when they were brought in since the times of the ancient Church for that which was not at the first is not Catholike but by some at some time was brought in contrary to that which is Catholicke And a THE WAY §. 50. n. 5 6. I haue shewed that there be many confessed changes wherein these circumstances cannot bee shewed Neuerthelesse for example b THE WAY Digr 51. I named him seauen points and the circumstances of Time Place and Persons of their getting in whereof the vse of PARDONS was the first He replies that I haue not named the particular time place nor persons that brought them in and therefore say nothing to the purpose Here let the Reader iudge whether hauing shewed out of the confession of his owne writers that they are not from the Apostles times not expressed in the Scripture or Fathers nor brought to our knowledge by their authority but lately come into the Church this be not enough for what is not from the Apostles times came in since there is the Time when What came in lately was not vsed in the Primitiue Church There is the Time againe what is not mentioned by the Scripture Fathers and ancient Church was deuised by innouators there is the Persons What the Scriptures and Pastors of the Church reueals not that growes vp as cockle and weed in the Church there is the place Let me adde to the rest whom I alledged in the Digression the words of B. Fisher c Art 28 p. 86. b. Pardons therefore began AFTER men had a while trembled at the torments of Purgatory I haue therefore brought euidence sufficient to proue pardons to be an innouation because it proues they were not vsed in the ancient Church nor reuealed by the Apostles 2 He replies that the question is not so much about the VSE of pardons and purgatory as whether the DOCTRINE that holds them came in of late CONTRARY to the doctrine of the Church And I answer againe affirmatiuely that it did For the vse is founded on the doctrine and the doctrine cannot be without vse There was no vse ergo there was no doctrine But M. White will neuer be able to shew that the Church beleeued there was no Purgatory or that pardons were not lawfull This is follie for how should M. White shew the Church condemned that which was not yet in rerum natura no man being able to speake of that which is not in being If pardons therefore were not M. White must be pardoned if he cannot shew how the Church condemned them And touching Purgatory though it be much ancienter yet neither did the Catholicke Church beleeue it There were some in the Church that conceited such a thing and the Fathers began in Saint Austines time but a Non redarguo quia forsitan verum est c. Aug ciuit l. 21. c. 26. see Enchirid. c. 69. and the Apol of the Gre. p. 132. waueringly and without any resolute certainety to mention it but it was not beleeued in their daies as a matter of faith that he which denied it should be an hereticke as it is now beleeued in the Church of Rome Besides the East Church beleeued it not to this day therefore the vniuersall Church beleeued it not Heare their owne words in an Apology written touching this matter b Apol. Graec. p. 119. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 We haue not receaued from our Doctors that there is any such Purgatory or temporary punishment by fire and we know the East Church neuer thought so Heare also what the B. of Rochester c Art 18. p. 86. b. saies No true beleeuer NOW doubts of Purgatory whereof notwithstanding among the ancient there is very litle or no mention at all The Greekes also to this day do not beleeue there is a Purgatory Let whose will reade the commentaries of the ancient Greekes and so farre as I see he shall finde very rare