Selected quad for the lemma: prayer_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
prayer_n	church_n	tongue_n	unknown_a	2,125	5	9.4258	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00602	The Romish Fisher caught and held in his owne net. Or, A true relation of the Protestant conference and popish difference A iustification of the one, and refutation of the other. In matter of fact. faith. By Daniel Featly, Doctor in Diuinity.	Featley, Daniel, 1582-1645.; Featley, Daniel, 1582-1645. Fisher catched in his owne net. aut	1624 (1624)	STC 10738; ESTC S101879	166,325	348

little to the purpose Secondly a Romified Lady being present and being troubled with those dull and weake answers did then intreat me to interpose and dispute of Transubstantiation for her instruction And lastly I adde that I had proposed this question to Master Sweet at my house 8. weekes before where his leasure then would not giue him leaue to dispute of it and now I conceiued he was wel armed for a second encounter Againe where it is related in the Conference that I told M. Buggs that the Church was in Christ and his Apostles c. The Iesuite saith in the margent there A very weake and insufficient answer as is shewed hereafter Surely the Iesuite had a weake memorie and forgot a farther Reply or else other answer hee could not make to disproue it Neither by Master Fishers leaue was it so weake and insufficient an answer as hee gaue me when vpon his first meeting falling into conference about the Reall presence which Master Fisher would prooue out of these words Hot est corpus meū I answerd that Scotus Cameracensis and Bellarmine were of opinion that that Text was not strong enough to enforce Transubstantiation To which obiection hee gaue this Answer as a full satisfaction to the standers-by What care I for Bellarmine or Scotus or Cameracensis Againe by Master Sweets leaue it was not so weake and insufficient an answer as when I propounded to him foure questions viz. The worship of Images Praier in an vnknowne tongue Communion in one kinde and Transubstantiation with this assurance in the presence of Recusants that if he could proue either all or but any one of those held by the ancient Fathers in the Primitiue Church according to that forme of doctrine prescribed in the Councel of Trent I would then subscribe to Popery All his answer was that hee brought a booke that would proue them all So for that time I was content hee should bee saued by his booke But Doctor Featly in whose hands hee is now will not let him escape so easily but calling him into the inner barre will finde that non legit vt Clericus At that time Master Sweet farther added that hee for his part had other businesse and could not intend to argue with mee about those questions If his superior had heard him certainly hee would haue enioyned him penance for neglecting so fai●e an opportunitie of conuerting such an Hereticke as hee takes mee to bee hee knowes there ought to bee no businesse pretended where there had been a possibility to make a proselyte Lastly concerning the issue of the Conference I auow and protest that old Master Bugs came then to me and gaue mee thankes in the same roome before his departure and told mee that he well perceiued it was be the great brags of the aduersaries for their Church that hee well perceiued they could say but little for it and withall hee did acknowledge himselfe to bee so well satisfied at that time that he professed vnto mee that if his sonne would not leaue his religion and the priests company he would leaue him c. HVMFREY LYNDE The Protestant Relation Paragraph the first touching the entry into the Conference DOctor White and D. Featly beeing inuited to dinner by Sir Humfrey Lynde and staying awhile after had notice giuen them that M. Fisher and M. Sweet Iesuites were in the next room ready to conferre with them touching a Question set downe by M. Fisher vnder his owne hand in these words viz. First Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible and especially in the Ages going before Luther and secondly Whether the names of such visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors This Question beeing deliuered to the parties aboue-named and it beeing notified vnto them that there were certaine persons who had beene sollicited and remaining doubtfull in Religion desired satisfaction especially in this point they were perswaded to haue some speech with the Iesuites touching this point the rather because the Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers and disperse them in secret in which they vaunt that no Protestant Minister dare encounter them in this point Master Fisher his Answer First any man reading this parcel would be induced to think that D. White D. Featly had neuer had notice before for what end they were inuited to dinner or for what end they were to meete with the Iesuites but that they were on the sudden summ●ned to this Conference without any preparation or knowledge of the Question which not to be so is euidently conuinced partly by that which is already said partly by that which I am after to say Secondly this Relator would make his Reader beleeue that M. Fisher vnder his owne hand had set downe the words of the Question distinguished with the expresse figure of 2. which is not so for M. Fisher did not write any such figure of 2. in the middle of the Question nor did not meane to make any more then 〈◊〉 onely entire Question as Sir Humfrey himselfe had desired Thirdly he seemeth willing to perswade that Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers which is not true Doctor Featly his Reply The Heathen accounted it an ominous thing offendere in limine to stumble as a man is going out a-doores in lifting his legge ouer the threshold You do so M. Fisher you stumble at the first setting your foote out a-doore and which is farre worse you stumble at three strawes The first is that forsooth any man reading this parcell would beleeue that D. White and my selfe were on the sudden summoned to this Conference And what if he should beleeue so What doth this aduātage our cause or preiudice yours It matters not much how wee came to this encounter but how we came off Yet are there no words in the Relation which imply any such thing that wee came sudden or vnprouided nay whosoeuer reades the first Chapter touching the occasion of the Conference cannot but perceiue that wee had notice of it before and came prouided The truth is for mine owne part I knew of it two daies and no more before the meeting and I excepted against the day appointed as beeing too neere and sudden for a man to prepare either to oppose or answer in so spacious and ●ast a Question 〈◊〉 from Christ to L●ther yet beeing ouer-intreated to be there as an Assistan● onely in the 〈◊〉 yeelded The second straw you stumbled at is That the Relator would make the Reader beleeue that M. Fisher put a figure of 2. at the second part of his Question And what if the Reader did so beleeue It is certaine that there is a second 〈◊〉 in your Question And what 〈◊〉 then had it beene to set before the second Vtrum the figure 2 Howsoeuer there was no fault in the Protestant Rela●our but in the Printer who mistooke the interrogatiue point in the copy for the figure 2. In the

terrae faecibus contundendo segregant Metallici ita veritatis aureus Thesaurus collisu rationum mundatur à faecibus c. As those that work vpon Mines seuer the precious metall from earthly dregs by beating the Ore in the stamping-mill so the golden treasure of Truth is seuered from dregs of error and cleared by being beaten out by Argumentations to or against Ludouicus Viues long ago obserued that the true faith and Religion is like gold which is bettred by the hammer but false religion Heresie and superstition are like Alchumy-stuffe or glasse which cannot endure the stroke but are battered in pieces by it The Christian Religion neuer refuseth touch of argument but the Gentiles of old and the Mahumetans at this day refuse all triall by disputation nay they prohibit it vnder paine of death The Hussites as Cocleus relates in their storie were readie to bid their Aduersaries battell by disputation but their Aduersaries were not so readie to vndertake them Nay Iohn Gerson in his Epistle to the Arch-bishop of Prague is so far from encouraging him to put the matter to a triall in disputation that he aduiseth him to take a farre different course with them whom he there falsly calls Pseudo-doctores false teachers Now saith he The onely readie way to cut downe Heresies is by the temporall sword Miracles are ceased neither is it lawfull now to tempt God to confirme our faith tanquam nouellam by Miracles Neque rursus in disputando apud tales pertinaci animositate contendentes et innitentes propriae prudentiae vllus vnquam erit finis quin potius nimis altercando iuxta verbum Senecae deperdetur veritas scandalizabitur populus laedetur quoque summa charitas Denique talis obstinatorum proteruitas incidit in illud poetae Aegrescitque medendo Neither will there bee any end of disputing with such pertinacious contenders who rely vpon their owne wisdome nay rather according to the words of Seneca the truth will bee lost with much wrangling the people will bee scandalized charity woūded in a word the proteruitie of obstinate persons will make good that of the Poet The wound is the worse for the cure So little did the Papists gaine whatsoeuer faire glosse Gerson puts vpon it by disputation with those noble Fore-runners of our Protestant Faith and far lesse haue there successours gained by their disputations in Germany France and England I need adde no more to our disputers against disputations in generall because they fight but aloof off I am now to buckle with those who take the matter manner of this conference to task against which as I vnderstand by you they obiect that it was but a Flourish no Fight a praeludium and no true Encounter no Argument in it prosecuted to the full This obiection might haue been spared because in the Conference it self it is confessed that it grew not to that maturity nor attained that progresse or issue which was desired and there also it is expressed whose fault it was If a heauy and dull Beast in rich trappings and furniture making great shew of metall by rising and curuetting yet beeing spurred and lashed by the Rider and beaten by all the standers by wil not mend his pase what disparagement is this to the Rider Howsoeuer say they the grapes being not ripe were not fit for the presse yet as vnripe as they were they quenched then his thirst for whom they were gathered and they who without knowledge of the principal Owners put them in a few weeks so often in the presse affirme that the wine lyes not vpon their hand Notwithstanding this and some other testimonies of some kind of approbation of this rather assay then performance I had buried this Embryo as soone as it was borne and as it came into the world without a Midwife so it should haue gone out of the world without a Bel-man had not the slanderous tongues of enemies saued the life of it who both in England and beyond the seas reported confidently that it was such a mis-shapen and deformed monster that the parents were ashamed it should see the Sunne To checke these most false and iniurious reports and preuent future scandall it was in a manner necessarie that this pamphlet should bee suffered to fly abroad And now that it is abroad what doe they libell against this little Impe vnable to defend it self against such strife of tongues They say In it the proofes are diuersiue and that I decline the method required by Master Fisher plainely to proue the visibilitie of our Church by producing Catalogues of names in al ages beginning from Luther and so ascending vpwards to Christ and his Apostles When I read this obiection in your letter I could scarce forbeare laughing because it brought to my remembrance the simple Answer of a fresh-water souldiour who when his Antagonist remembred him with a smart blowe or two vpon his head and thighes exclaimed What man Canst thou not see my buckler Is not my buckler broad enough I saw M. Fishers buckler and withall I obserued his blind sides at which I laid Am I therefore to bee blamed should I aduise him as Aiax doth Vlysses Post clypeumque late et mecum contende sub illo Lie behinde thy buckler and contend with me vnder it The truth is that in the ages immediately before Luther and since the 1000 yeer in which Satan was let loose the Papists haue much to say for the visibility yea and pomp too of their degenerating Church but in the Primitiue tymes especially in the golden Age in which Christ and his Apostles and their immediate successors and Scholars liued and died they haue no more to say for the visibilitie of their now new Romish Church then Master Fisher and Master Sweet said in the conference Whosoeuer should haue discoursed in those dayes of Masses without Communicants or Communion without the Cup or the Lords Supper without Bread or Wine in substance or prayers without vnderstanding or adoring the Cross or Dirges for the dead or blessing Salt and Spettle or censing Images or baptizing bells or hallowing grains and medals or wearing Dei's or praying by tale vpon Beads or of the circumgestation of the Hoast or Priest shauen crownes or Monks Cowles or Cardinals Hatts or the Popes ●triple Crowne or his pardons and dispensations and taxes for all manner of sinnes or his canonizing Saints o● deposing Kings or the like would haue been thought besides himselfe This is the true cause why the question being propounded Of all ages before Luther I chose rather to descend frō Christ to Luther then ascend frō Luther to Christ and his Apostles Demosthenes will by no meanes endure that his aduersarie Aeschines should prescribe him his method he saith It is against the golden rule to be kept in all iudgements 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Yea but they say this is not all for you turned quite out of the way You should haue proued