printed in our hearts that he be holden as an * Galat. 1. Anathema or an excommunicate person yea although it were an Angell of heauen The which doeth perswade vs not to receiue your d Ours is new to you as the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles was to the Iews in that time that vnderstoode not the Scriptures new doctrine or Gospell but to keepe our selues vnder the gouernaunce of our olde Pastours and Bishops without hauing any respect to their euill or good liues for as touching our faith and saluation that doeth import nothing e This is hardly boldly saied for any thing that you know some take occasion the rather thereby to haue them and so to be conuerted The good and holie liues of Iesus Christ and his Apostles hath profited nothing neither to the obstinate Iewes nor to the vnbeleeuing Gentiles f Open confessioÌ„ would haue open punishment Nor in the like case the depraued life of manie euill Bishops that haue beene at Rome and in other places haue not shut the dores of heauen against those that are true Catholickes and leade particuler liues the which are two principall pointes that doe quiet our consciences g The first is talke and the laâ—ter iâ— little bene seeing how many of you haue learned to be lâ—â—dâ— of them I meane the one that we beleeue that that our Pastours and the vniuersall Church haue beleeued these thousand and fiue hundred yeares and the other that their euill liues cannot hurt vs. For as the Apostle doeth say euery man shall beare his owne bundell The IX Chapter NOw perswading your selfe that you haue yeelded vs a sufficient account of your ministrie when as onely you haue countenanced it with a shew of personall succession and a bare bragge without any proofe at all of succession also in the Apostolique trueth as it may appeare by that which hath beene sayed you call vs to a reckoning for ours and will vs to shew that God is the authour of it or else to giue you leaue to say it commeth from his aduersary We answere you that our calling is of God first because orderly according to the order of the Church wherein wee liue wee are by them that are deputed by the Church for that busines tried and examined and then with imposition of handes and speciall prayer vnto God fitte for that purpose admitted and ordained ministers of his worde and Sacramentes Secondly because our office of the ministery it selfe is the same that Christ gaue vnto his Church vnder the names of pastours and Doctours whose office and properties are set downe and described Actes 20. 2. Corinthians 4. 1. Timothy 3. Titus 1. 1. Peter 5. And thirdly because we are able to proue by the writen word that we feede Gods people committed vnto vs with that onely foode which God hath allowed for his children and minister the Sacraments according to Christes institution Lastly God himselfe hath sealed ratified our ministery to be of him in the effectual vocatioÌ„ conuersioÌ„ of many thereby Let vs now therfore heare what you can say either to weaken this our assertion that our calling is of God or any of these reasons that we vse to proue the same by First in Tertullians words de Praescrip aduersus haereticos you bid vs shew the beginning of our Churches and reckon vp the succession of bishops down to vs from the beginning c. you haue heard that the same Tertullian in the very same place yea euen in the words immediately following yours addeth Be it that heretiques deuise thus to doe for what is not lawfull for them being once fallen into blasphemy But though they shal deuise so sayeth he they shall gaine nothing For their doctrine compared with the Apostolique doctrine by the diuersity and contrariety thereof will pronounce that their Churches haue neither Apostle nor Apostolique man for the authour thereof Whereof when he had giuen a reason he addeth that those Churches which caÌ„not shew any Apostle or Apostolique man to be the founder thereof in that they were founded long after as many are yet in eâdem fide conspirantes non minus Apostolicae de putantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae that is they are no lesse to be reputed for Apostolique agreeing with them in the same faith euen for the affinitie therof You thought it good to stop before you came to these words For these words indeede take away all the force of the obiectioÌ„ grouÌ„ded vpon the former in that hereby it is euident that howsoeuer Tertullian in his time could shew the originall of the Catholique Church by deducing it and the doctrine therein professed euen from the Apostles to his time yet hee thought it was possible for heretiques to make shew of the like succession of persons but secondly and especially because thereby it is most cleare that to proue a Church to be Apostolick it is not necessary for it alwaies to be able to deduce such a line of personal succession down from the Apostles but it is sufficient to be able to make it appeare that the doctrine thereof agreeth with the doctrine of the Apostles Which vnles we be able to doe by the Scriptures whereby we most cartainly may know what their doctrine was let not our Churches be accounted Apostolique But if this we be able to doe which we doubt not of and yours compared and conferred with the Apostolique doctrine therein expressed shall proue both diuers and contrary then for all your fiction of succession we say vnto you in Tertullians worde that so your Churches shall be proued to be founded neither by Apostle nor Apostolique man For as the Apostles taught not contraries amongst theÌ„selues so neither did the Apostolique men saieth he vnlesse it were they that departed from the Apostles and ours shall proue themselues though they were not able to deduce their Succession from the Apostles by their affinity of doctrine with that of the Apostles to be Apostolique and so to haue their originall and beginning from Sion and so also in the end it will fall out that Tertullian spoke rather against such as you are theÌ„ against vs. And thus you see Tertullian hath sufficiently answered himselfe and also hath giuen vs weapons against you to defend our selues withall You gaine euen as little by your similitude taken from tenants who to proue their title good must shew their Land-lordes how by succession they came to their landes For if all Land-lords should thrust all their tenants from their possessions which are not able to deduce the descent of their tenimeÌ„ts froÌ„ one to one euen froÌ„ the first that held it purchased it the 10 tenant in the world should not long quietly enioy his owne Yet you for your parts if your bare bragge were a proofe are such tenaÌ„ts to the inheritance of the church of Christ and the Catholique trueth that you haue not onely proued your title thereunto to be good by
to God the consciences of his superiours The XVI Chapter NOT we but your Romish Iesuites and seminary Priests are the sowers of that seede of sedition that you speake of neither is it we but they and such like of your side which when they haue so done alleadge onely for their defence their ardent and Apostolique zeale and affection to winne soules This in England and Ireland these late yeares hath notoriously and very often beene found true in these and questionlesse other kingdomes where the Gospell is preached and established haue and doe finde the like For they go vp and downe secretly vnder the pretence of reconciling men and women into the bosom of their mother Church to alienate their heartes from their naturall soueraigne to the obedience of a forraine potentate and so prepare them against the time when opportunity shal best serue to procure the death or deposition of their lawfull Prince And that thus without anie offence to God they maie doe they perswade themselues by vertue of the Popes bull in that therein they bee absolued from their alleageance vnto their home supreme magistrate and are thereby also taught that in furthering either his depriuation or death they shal doe honourable acceptable and meritorious seruice to the mother church of Rome These thinges I say haue of late yeares too too often here in England in open places of iudgement beene manifestly proued against your Iesuites and Popish Priestes and therefore as traitours a number of them and their followers haue beene most worthely executed Which thinges being so euident as they are great shame is it that yet you should not blush to charge vs with these thinges whereof yours are most famously guilty and whereof truely you cannot conuict any of ours You tell vs wee should haue praied to the Lorde of the haruest to thrust forth more labourers thereinto as Christ hath commanded vs Math. 9. and not as you quote it Math. 15. and that in the meane time we should haue reformed our selues and not haue taken vpon vs without some expresse commaundement from God a matter of such importance as the reformation of your estate is According to this counsell of Christ wee haue praied to the Lorde of the haruest and he in his mercy towardes his Church hath heard our prayers and wee hope will euery day more and more to the full ouerthrowe of yours and perfect consummation of ours But that in the meane time they whose eies God hath opened to see the Babylonish confusion of yours should there haue staied as you would haue had them vntill they had a further commission from God then already they had for so you must needes meane by that further commission or expresse commaundement that you would haue had them first to haue had you can neuer proue For they whose ministrie it pleased God to vse to detect your Antichristian doings according to his worde 2. Thessal 2. in these later daies were such as namely Wickliffe Iohn Hus and Luther that had not onely the ordinary calling of those times to feede Gods people as pastours and doctours but also they were such as God had blessed with rare and extraordinary giftes of knowledge and zeale and therefore if they seeing the abhominations of your Synagogue and the grosse blindenesse and errours that you still laboured to holde Gods people in had contented themselues onely with praying vnto God for the redresse therof with reforming of thēselues had not saied their hands shoulders to the work vsing the talents that God had bestowed vpon them to his best aduantage without a further new and expresse commaundement then they had alreadie receiued in the writen word should not they with the vnprofitable seruant Math. 25. haue had their wages They tooke not in hand to doe as they did as you would make your Reader beleeue onely vnder the colour of zeale without expresse warrant from God their Lorde and master For beside their zeale and knowledge by their callinges in that they were famous doctours and pastours in their times they were bound by Gods expresse worde Esay 58.1 Ezech. 33.6 7. and in sundrie other places to doe as they did But to bring vs and our ministers into hatred in this Chapter you labour to perswade your reader that as of burning zeale they haue in many places dispossessed your Bishops and Priestes of their places so as Gods Lieutenants and as men voide of all partiality for thus tauntingly it pleaseth you to write they wil proceede against ciuill magistrates both higher and lower in like maner because many of them haue beene and be as you say as ill liuers and rather worse then your Popish Prelates haue beene Which to bee an vnlawfull thing and the cause of all confusion and horrible disorder you bestowe a great deale of needelesse paines to proue for it is a thing that wee teach and vrge in earnest and you your practise to the contrary beeing so vsuall as it is considered onely in iest and for a fashion teach it But indeede this is the way which the malicious and ancient enemies of Gods Church haue alwaies vsed to disgrace the true seruants of God by with the Kings and Princes of the world and therefore you doe well in that you are nothing behinde them in malice enmity against Gods people in that you studie also to be like them in this Wee reade you know after the returne of Gods people out of their captiuitie in Babylon when they beganne once to build and to go forward either with Gods house in Hierusalem or the walles of that City alwaies this was one of the practises of their enemies to labour their discredit to the hinderance of their worke to accuse them to the Persian Kings to intende therein sedition and rebellion against them Ezr. 4. Nehem. 6. And it appeares Iohn 19. it was the principallest meanes whereby the high Priest and the Iewes prouoked Pilate to giue sentence against our Sauiour that they tolde him that he was not Caesars frend if he deliuered him thereby insinuating though in trueth hee had both payed tribute vnto Caesar and had taught others both by example and word publickly to yeelde vnto Caesar whatsoeuer was due vnto him Math. 16. 22. and they of all other did most repine at Caesars iurisdiction ouer them and their cuntrey that hee was one whose doings and doctrine tended to the supplāting of Caesar In like maner Act. 17. 24. wee finde it one of the vsuall meanes that the vnbeleeuing Iewes and other lewde people then when none in their hearts regarded Caesar and his authoritie lesse vsed to discredit the Apostles and their doctrine to accuse them to be seditious and such as cared not for Caesars decrees Neither did this practise die when the common weale of the Iewes ceased for it appeares in Euseb lib. 5. cap. 1. and in Tertullians Apology in sundry places that there was nothing more common in the primatiue Church
be perceiued that none of these points as they are now taught by you were receiued for catholicke 360. years ago For if when they brake of cōmunion from you these had then beene so accoūted and taken doubtles they had then bene acquainted with these and so by al likelihood had held them as they doe other things which with you they had learned before vnto this day I am not ignorant that not long after in Gregory the tenthes tyme in a councell at Lyons and after that agayne in the Florentine councell labour was made to bring them to cōmunion vnion with you againe and that in the first Michael Paleologus so the better to compasse helpe to keepe his kingdome which with brutish murder he had got and some other of his frends assented vnto a decree to that end and that in the other likewise Iohannes Paleologus Emperour of Constātinople and the patriarch there with some other greeke bishops amongst whom was Bessarion assented in some sort to your Popes title and your doctrin of purgatory But withal good reader I must tel thee that I finde the consenting of the first was so misliked of the rest of the bishops of Grecia when they came home that the stories report that euen therefore they held them that so assented alwaies after as persons cut of from the communion of their Church and when they died denyed them the honour of buriall And that likewise the same stories report not onely that in the later by no meanes they coulde be brought to allow of transubstantiation though there they were vrged much thereunto but that for their yeelding in the other they were so resisted when they came at home by one Marcus the bishop of Ephesus and other bishops that they were brought to recant and to declare merely voide al that they had done there yea moreouer it is recorded in an anciēt register of the church of Herford that in 29. articles there also set down the greek Church differeth quite from your Romā church And therfore hereby it should seeme that these points of popery which it hath not yet receiued were either not at all or at least not vniuersally receaued before the foresaied breach and that therfore these haue not 400 years continuāce on their backs which comes far short of your account of 1500. years Further euident and apparent proofes there are to make it vtterly without all question that both these many other points of the Roman religion that now is are far yoūger then your reckoning For before the coūcel of Cōstance in the yeare 1414. we finde not the ministering the cōmuniō in both kinds publickly forbid to the cōmon cōmunicāt And in the councel of Basil it was permitted againe in the year 1431. to the Bohemiās to receiue vnder both kinds so there from that day to this many haue vsed to doe Certaine it is as it appeares in the first Epistle of Cypriā that in his time with was 260. years after christ it was by him accounted absurd to deny the cup to any communicant de consecratione dist 2. it is recorded that Gelasius who was a bishop of Rome about the yeare 500 made a flat decree to binde al men to receiue in both kinds saying Either let him that receiueth receiue both or neither because the diuision of one mistery cannot bee without sacrilege and yet now your Popes their councels which you hold cannot erre condēne it for a cursed heresie to holde it to be needful that this sacrament should be receiued of al communicants in both kinds And it appeares in the same distinction Cap. peracta That Pope Calixt in the yeare 223 made a flat lawe contrary to your receiued vse now of your priests receuing al alone For there he decrees that cōsecratiō being done al that wil not be shut frō the church should cōmunicate for so saith he the apostles taught the fashiō thē of the Romā church was How is it thē that your Roman Church that now is contrary to this ancient decree thus grounded both vpon the authority of the Apostles the practise then of that church in this point now practiseth the quite contrary Trāsubstantiation the very life of your masse your owne doctor Tonstal in his book of the sacramēt diuers other of your frēds as I haue shewed before Cap. 11. cōfesse was not enacted decreed for a catholicke truth amōgst your selues before Innocēt the 3 time 1215 in the Laterā coūcel which was after the greeke church was gone from you so it was rather the decree of a particuler assembly then of the Catholique Church and therefore no marueile though the Greekes reiect this your councel and decree Your owne schoole-men Canonists and Croniclers as Durand Albertus Gabriel Biel Innocentius Vrspergensis and others shew from point to point and frō peece to peece who inuented deuised your masse withall the ceremonies thereof as also Polidor in his 5. booke and 9. Chapter of the inuentours of things and Platina in the liues of the Popes and namely in the life of Pope Sixtus the first It was so long a licking before it came to the shape it now hath and was patched together as it appeares in these and other your owne writers by so many Popes so long distant one from an other in time that it would require a good pretty long treatise to set downe the seuerall shreds and morselles thereof with the authours and deuisers of them Which things considered it is the likest a beggers cloake consisting of an infinite sort of patches at sundry times and of sundry colours sowed and cobled together that can be The masse now vsed in your church commonly called S. Gregories masse was first receaued and established in the time of Pope Adrian 780. years after Christ at the least for others accoūt it more as witnesseth Durand Nauclere Iacobus de voragine in the life of Gregorie the first for before that S. Ambrose Lyturgie was much in vse And the last of these authours reports that when with much a do Adrian had got it to bee decreede in a councell that S. Gregories masse should be vniuersally vsed and Charles the Emperour had laboured both by faire and foule meanes to cause the same decree to bee executed and yet many would hardly be drawen from the vse of Saint Ambroses one Eugenius seing this stir about it gaue the Pope this graue aduise that the bookes of both the Lyturgies should be layed vpon the altar of S. Peter and that the Church dores should carefully be shut and sealed with the signets of sundry Bishops and that then they should giue themselues all that night to earnest prayer that God by some euident signe might shew which of thē he would haue to be vsed whose counsell being in euery point followed in the next morning when they went into the church they found as saieth the story onely S. Ambrose booke opened and lying vpon the
the like vnto the aboue named heretickes which haue fortified their caÌ„pe with as manie places more then you doe alleage Now if that notwithstaÌ„ding the scriptures by theÌ„ alleaged you doe condemne theÌ„ as hereticks because that they did interpret theÌ„ coÌ„trary to that that the l Vnderstanding by the Church the true Church that is one of our reasons but that is not al why we reiect them and their maner of alleaging them principally we reiect them because by the plaine euidence of the scriptures we can confute â—hem And to despise the iudgement of the popish Church is not to despise the iudgement of the true Church of Christ church doeth teach to saie trueth you can imagin no other excuse to what purpose doe you take vpon you the names of Catholickes seeing that you commit the like offence The diuersities of those olde heresies grounded vpon the Scriptures ill interpreted doe teach vs that vvee shoulde not permit the noise of your reformed Gospell that soundeth so shrill to make vs reele froÌ„ a Yours is but ancient as Ieroboams religion was when the 10 tribes were brought into captiuity our ancient faith without going so farre to seeke that that we haue so neere at haÌ„d Let vs talke of the present time how manie coÌ„trarie sects doth there raigne How manie heads of heresies b With variety of names you need lesly increase the number as your forfathers were woont to doe with those whoÌ„ they first called Waldenses Some are Lutherans some Anabaptists some PuritaÌ„s some ProtestaÌ„ts some PrecisiaÌ„s all these doe fortifie their caÌ„pes with Scriptures to fight one against another The ZuingliaÌ„s the Caluinists on the other side doe write that al these doe erre and they proue it by Scripture The Anabaptists laugh at al the rest The Prophets Celestes which is another sect doe no lesse grounding themselues vpon their reuelations because that Dauid saieth * Psalm 84. Heare what the Lorde doeth speake in me The Deists or Trinitaries which are come last of al crie out and saie that all they are heretickes and they proue it by the olde and new Testament I praie now tell me which of al these shall I receiue seeing that they doe all alleage the holie Scriptures If we receiue some and not all those that are refused will saie that wee offer them wrong for they haue c This is but your saying still for you shall neuer be able to proue this their shoppes stored with as good stuffe of the scriptures and aswell alleadged as all the rest If we receiue them all it will be a renewing of the olde confusion of Babylon through the neglecting of so manie Gospels If you saie that we ought to follow those that conforme themselues most vnto the pure vvord of God that will come to one ende for if I doe demaunde of you how we shall know which doe conforme themselues most vnto the trueth d Indeade we say and we are not ashamed of it that onely by the assistance direction of the holy Ghost in trying their interpretations by the scriptures it must be discerned who alleâ—geth them best you answere me that it must be done by the grace of the holie Ghost sent by the Lord if with a true heart he is inuocated of the faithful Seeing you know so wel the way how to agree togither how coÌ„meth it to passe that you haue not vsed it this fortie or fiftie yeares which are the precincts of the time since your ancient Church began seeing that you haue assembled so manie times togither e We haue done so and Gods name be praised for it so far we haue obtained our praier that we are able by the light of Gods spirit to discerne who amongst all these and all others amongst whom you papistes are the principall alleages them best with those we holde peace for the rest we morne yet comforting of our selues with this that necessary it is for the trial of the Lords that there be such sects why haue yee not praied vnto the Lorde to sende the spirit of trueth to make peace amongst his Apostles I thinke that you are not so vnshamefast that you will denie the quarels and debates that haue risen among you f The stirre betwixt these two though it hath bene more then should bee yet neither so much hath it bene at least for the followers of Caluin as you woulde seeme nor nothing comparable to the brawlings and furious contentions amongst your selues often I doe not say in light words but in great battailes in railing processes in horrible excoÌ„munications sent from the Churches of the Lutherans vnto the Caluinists froÌ„ the Caluinists vnto the Lutherans as I haue set forth at large in the booke that I made of the Sacrament therefore yee are greatly ouerseene that ye haue not inuocated the spirit of the Lorde as Caluin hath taught you in his Catechisme to the end that you may come to some accorde The XXVII Chapter FIrst here you aske vs whither it be good to beleeue al maner of people that alleage scripture We answere you no but with S. Ioh. 1. Epist 4. We wish all men to trie the spirits whither they be of God or no before they beleeue theÌ„ And we adde further with Iohn in the same place Hereby shall yee knowe the spirit of God Euery spirit that confesseth that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God and that spirit which confesseth not that is not of God but is the spirit of Antichrist By which wordes wee answere fullie your second demaunde also and giue you a proofe that our spirit is of God and yet neither these heretiques which you name nor yours any better then that spirit of Antichrist which Iohn speaketh of For I am sure you must needs graunt mee if you consider these wordes of Saint Iohn well that hee speaketh here onelie of confessing soundlie and rightly that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh which wee doe as wee are able to proue by the Scriptures truelie alleadged and neither they nor you are able to proue that and therefore this is a plaine proofe that ours is of God and neither yours nor theirs can be They confesse him not aright to be come in the flesh in that one way or other they erred not onelie in the doctrine of his office but also held some heresie or other against the trueth of his person And you confesse him not aright to be come in the flesh because not onely with some of the ancieÌ„t heretiques as namelie the Marcionites for the loue you haue to your fiction of TraÌ„substaÌ„tiation you hold him to haue such flesh as shall for your peeuish pleasures be without all the naturall properties of humane flesh and so a very phantasme and not flesh indeed but also most craftily you take from him that glorious office that the Scripture giueth him and translate it to what you list
of those men then we shall be this other way Seeing therefore Christ tooke this way himselfe both with the deuil himselfe with his chaplaines both to confute their errours erroneous interpretations to confirme the trueth by searching the scriptures and neither he nor his Apostles sent vs either by word or their example to the high Priests then or vnto any other for resolutioÌ„ of the church or trueth this way as the best only way we thinke all ChristiaÌ„s bound to take And in so doing let not any man despaire but that through the goodnes of God he shal be inabled to trie the spirits to discerne who amongst all other alleadge the scriptures soundliest For we see it is the fashion of our God to reueile his trueth and the misteries thereof to those that be his how simple soeuer when he doeth conceale hide them from the great men of the world Mat. 11.1 Cor. 1. But you say If this may and must be atteined by the grace of the holy ghost obteined of the lord by faithfull inuocatioÌ„ of his name how chanceth it that since Luther for no ancienter you say though it be neuer so false our ReligioÌ„ is you haue not obteined that holy ghost to ende your hoat contentions and debates amoÌ„gst your selues that so you might be at vnity yet amoÌ„gst your selues This is spoken as though it must needes follow that either we haue not faithfully praied vnto God for his spirit or els if we haue that then of necessity there neither could be nor would be any difference of opinions and contentions at all amongst vs. If you be of this mind then the manifold differences schismes sects varieties of opinions that haue beene and yet are in your church as I haue noted cap. 4. argueth in your Logicke that your church neuer yet praied faithfully and effectually for the holy ghost But indeede your argumeÌ„t is naught For it appeareth Ioh. 17. that Christ himselfe praied for vnity amongst his Apostles and all that should beleeue their doctrine no doubt of it he was heard in that he praied for Heb. 5.7 and obteined for his heaueÌ„ly father would deny him nothing and yet you haue heard cap 4. after this there were varieties of opinions and hoate contentions betwixt some of them that doubtles of both parts were within the compasse of Christes praier And therefore that praier of Christ and the prayers of his seruants made to that ende are to be vnderstoode to take place and to be effectuall in that there is so much vnity amongst the true members of the Church atteined thereby as is sufficient to holde them togither in the communion of saints which is if they ioyne togither in holding the foundation and fundamentall points of Religion though otherwise there be differences and hâ—at contentions sometimes amongst them And it may not be thought as you seeme to take it that such prayers either are not effectually made or els there must followe thereupon simply an vniuersall accorde in all things For then Christes prayer was not effectuall in that after Paul and Barnabas were at aâ—arre Act. 15. c. That vnity that you speake of the Church may striue for here but she is not to make her account to atteine vnto it before she come in heauen and bee maried to her husband there And so much vnity there is betwixt vs and those whom we count members of Christes Church with vs as that though there be some variety of opinions and therefore also contention but too much yet we ioyne so togither here in the foundation and other most principal points of our Religion that we doubt not but the Lord hath heard our praiers and graunted vs the spirit of vnity so farre forth as that one daie we hope in heauen all to ioine together in perfect vnity notwithstanding the iarres that otherwise in the meane time to trie vs withall be fouÌ„d amongst vs. You know we praie daily that Gods will may be done in earth as it is in heauen and so doe you or you are to blame and herein we hope we are heard and yet simply we neuer found nor shall as long as the world standeth the will of God so done here as it is in heauen For continually there is disobedieÌ„ce to his will here in one thing or other one way or other euen amongst the best but in that in such measure as God seeth this fit to be obteined here he granteth it we are notwithstanding to thinke our prayers effectuall Christ himselfe praied Iohn 17.15 to deliuer his church from euill and yet though that prayer was heard in that God so farre forth preserueth his church from euill as he seeth it expedient for the state thereof here we see daily that many are the troubles and euils that the poore church is encombred withall And therefore to conclude you must vnderstaÌ„d that the faithfull praiers of Gods saints are to be accounted effectuall though the thing they pray for be not obteined in full perfection here as long as so much here is obteined as the Lorde seeth to bee necessary and conuenient for the estate of his seruantes So that notwithstanding the differences amongst vs you might and would if you had the grace ioyne rather with vs in our Religion then continue in that wherein you are the professours whereof are torne a sunder with moe and greater differences then the churches that receaue ours are howsoeuer you deceiue the simple with the vizarde of vnity in that you ioyne together vnder your Pope against the trueth The XXVIII Chapter NOw to turne againe to our former purpose if it were so that of our owne free deliberation wee were minded to forsake our Catholique Religion a If you should be of no Religion whiles all of one were full of one mindâ— you must die a nullifidian I warrant you the iniurious disputations that you vse among your selues were sufficieÌ„t to make vs to suspeÌ„d our iudgemeÌ„t without leauing to any of both parties vntill that we could see more resolute in your opinioÌ„s being the bardest matter the knowing in what cuÌ„try the residence should be kept for that matter b Where wheÌ„ nay our absolute sentence iâ— as our bookes doe testifie and we proue it out of the ancient fathers that your doctrine in this point is but new a very young â—â—ng in comparison of that you would here haue it seeme You haue giueÌ„ absolute senteÌ„ce saying that the Catholique church hath erred euen froÌ„ the Apostles time vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are deade constituted in a third place called Purgatorie You should mee thinke at the least allowe a third place although it bee not that to receaue the soules of those whose consciences you haue so troubled that they know now neither what is their faith nor of what ReligioÌ„ they should be c Such vâ—setled and vnstable persons for all your foolish
yet without fruit to the receiuer the benefit indeed arising by his presence onely to the faith of the communicant the matter is not of so great moment weight as that either you should neede to make such a doe about or that the maintainers therof should neede to striue so eagerly for Which I hope God will in his good time reueale vnto them and so make them to giue ouer their contention and to grow into vnity in this matter with their brethren I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter that you verie greatly belie vs when you write that we haue giuen absolute sentence that the catholique Church hath erred euen from the Apostles times vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are dead constituted in a third place called Purgatorie For both your deuyses of Purgatorie and of praying to God for the releife of soules there wee saie and constantly defend to bee but popish deuises founde out and grounded but vpon humane reason dreames and fond visions and apparitions and neither taught by the Apostles nor any true pastour of the Church of Christ for three hundred yeares at least after Christ Tertullian was the first and that in a booke writen by him when hee was a Montanist that makes any mention towardes the allowance of prayer for the dead And vntill the Florentine councell the greeke Church could not be brought to ioine with you in this doctrine of yours as you knowe well inough And therefore it had beene more for your credit and honestie to haue spared this your merrie conceit and pleasant deuise of wishing vs though wee refuse your Purgatory to prouide a thirde place for them whom our contentions make constant on neither side For either if you had beene wise you would haue vttered that your conceit with more trueth in your first entrance into it or els you would haue let it alone for altogither The XXIX Chapter IT doeth appeare well by that that I haue saied howe the assurance of your vocation to the ministerie is but founded vpon sande for asmuch as you doe seeke particulerlie a contrarie meaning euerie one to his ovvne particuler sense beeing not this the waie that an extraordinary minister sent from God shoulde vse to confirme his doctrine for this hath beene the custome of all olde heretiques as I haue alreadie saied There is a verie great difference betweene setting forth the Scripture to refourme ones religion and to reforme ones conditions for when there is anie question of the refourming of ones maners a Good stuffe by this diuinity then men may by the warrant of the Apostle take the scriptures in diuers and sundry sences there is no need to regard whether the doctrine be new or olde for as the Apostle saieth let euery man take it to his owne sense but when it is to bee talked of as touching ones faith the Catholique ought greatly to beware of b And such be all they whosoeuer made them that will not stand with the rest of the scriptures of whâ—ch kinde your popish interpretations be singular interpretations and to holde them as very suspitious c If this rule be receiued and followed your popery will bee found new deuises and wil you nil you you shall become all one with 〈◊〉 He ought to follow the sentence that is holden and taught by the ancient Catholique Church without making any accompt of al these new deuises for euen as when one will repaire an olde house he dares commit it to any mason although his cunning bee but small but if the foundation must be touched he will seeke the best masters he can finde Euen so when one will correct me for my euill life or conditions although that it be so that he that seekes to reforme me be not of the wisest of the worlde and that he alleadge to me some place or figure of the scripture not altogither to the purpose yet all this ought to turne to me to one effect for I knowe his meaning although he cannot well expresse it the which is to haue me change my naughty life and to leaue my ill conditions d But all the packe of you shall neuer be able to proue â—opery to be thus grounded But when he shall come to touch my faith and to perswade me froÌ„ that that all my ancetours did euer holde from that that the Catholique church deriued from the Apostles hath holden and doeth holde and from that that both the Scripture and the generall Councels and all the ancient doctours teach and affirme in the repaire of this foundation I ought to trust none but euen the verie best I meane not one or two but all these that I haue named And now if you saie that they maie all erre I praie remember the olde prouerbe that saieth he is a foole that thinketh that he onlie is wise and all the other fooles that it is more agreeable to reason that one onely should erre then one great multitude for as they say commonly two eies see more then one and foure more then two The XXIX Chapter WHat you haue gained by all you haue hitherto writen to disproue either our vocatioÌ„ or Religion for all your great bragge here in the beginning of this Chapter by weighing togither your obiections and my answers now let the indifferent Reader iudge vnto whom I doubt not your bragge notwithstanding it shall and will well appeare that both may be builded vpon the rocke for any thing you haue yet saied The onely new thing that you set downe in this Chapter is this that the former variety amongst theÌ„ that alleadge scripture considered you allow well that one should listen to meane men alleadging scripture though not very aptlie to reforme maners withall But when they are alleadged to teach faith then it is meete that the Catholique man trust none but the best and those alleadging them according to the general Councels and all ancient doctours And therefore you write that the Catholique must take heede of singular interpretations that he must follow the sentence helde taught by the ancient Catholique Church not suffer himselfe to be perswaded from that faith that all his ancetours did euer holde the Catholique Church hath euer helde the Scriptures generall Councels and all the ancieÌ„t doctours doe teach In which case if one should take vpoÌ„ him to be wiser then all these you would haue him according to the prouerbe accounted a foole that thinketh himselfe onely wise and all others fooles because in reason it is more likely that one should erre then al these c. Be it that al this were very true what haue you woonne hereby against vs For neither shall you euer be able to proue as we haue often tolde you that your religion is that ancient Catholique religion nor your Church to be the ancient catholique Church nor that your Church hath either the Scriptures general councels or
thinking so well of your selues as you doe should not teach vs by your often example to doe that which if we doe but once you count an heinous offence in vs. You would haue the best to reforme the rest if your request were graunted you must amend apace or else there will none of you be found in that degree You are angrie with vs for speaking as wee vse to doe against your Popes and bishops and for that in the mean time we giue our selues glorious titles of Apostles Euangelists Prophets c passing ouer the faults of our owne Whereunto most truely I may answere that so infinite and monstrous haue beene the sinnes and abhominations of these your Popes and other prelates for this long time that it is impossible for vs all euer sufficiently to paint out the filthinesse of them and as for our passing ouer in the meane time the faultes of our owne though indeede we neuer deny but that there are faultes amongst our owne for they are men and indeed for all your saying we are the first censurers of our selues oftentimes for those faults what reason is there that you should require at our handes that we should neuer tell you of your faults but that we must withal lay open our owne When this is your fashion we will learne to imitate you and concerning titles which you say we so gloriously set out our ministers withall they are yet but titles by Christ in his expresse word left vnto his Church and of them some we cōfesse were extraordinary and but for a time as Apostles Prophets and Euangelists of whom onely we glory in this that our doctrine is the same that they left vs in writing the other titles of bishops pastors doctors as fit for the true ministers of the Gospel we take vnto vs therw t are we content So that you rather haue aduaunced your Clergie with glorious and vaine titles thē we in that of your own heads not thinking the titles that Christ hath left vs glorious inough you haue your Popes Cardinals and diuers other such strange and swelling names of pride and vanity Yet it grieueth you as it seemeth most that some of vs now and then tearme your Popes and bishoppes rauening deuouring wolues some labour therfore you bestow in amplifying a similitude to proue them no wolues but hirelings and bad shepheards that many of them haue beene a great while yea that their sinnes haue bene the cause of our prospering and preuailing as we haue you will not deny vs. It is wel that the euidence of the trueth and the force thereof hath preuailed thus far with you to cause you to graunt vs thus much I feare me if a number of your Prelates and Popes should come to the reading of this you should haue smal thanke of them for yeelding thus farre Well then hirelings they are and haue beene but too much and too long by your owne confession therefore as you tell them the iudgement of God denoūced against thē Eze. 3 33 is that that they may make their accoūt of which beeing so I cannot see how their veriest enemies should wish them to be worse yet let vs see what reason you haue to proue that they may not bee rightly called wolues Your reason is because in the phrase of the Scripture you thinke there must needs be betwixt an hireling and a woulfe spoken of therein the same difference that is betwixt a naughty carelesse and a negligent shepheard and the woulfe that commeth in the meane time to pray of his flocke whereupon the hireling with you is as the sheephearde but careles and negligent in looking to his sheepe the woulfe is as the heretick and false teacher that cōmeth whiles the other is negligent driues the sheepe from the folde deuours them But you know that similitudes are not to be streatched further then they are brought in vsed for that notwithstanding seeing you your selfe cōfesse that the hereticke is the woulfe we shal well inough maintaine our calling of your Popes and Bishops wolues I warrant you For that is the thing especially that wee stood vpon with you and we desire nothing more thē that you would come once to the sound triall of that point by the Canonicall scriptures whither you and they haue not beene most daungerous heretiques Heresie we account any opinion conceiued helde and stubburnly defended contrary to the sound grounds of diuinity set downe vnto vs in the canonicall scriptures And your Religion to stand consist of a great number of such we are alwaies most ready to proue It is not your saying that your Religion is ancient and receiued and taught alwaies in the Church of God from Christ to this day nor your bragging that we cānot deny it as you doe here again in the later ende of this Chapter and haue often heretofore that will serue the turne in this case for I haue diuerse times heretofore proued the contrarie This is flat euery one seeth it you can hide it no longer that if your Religion be so in deede as you say then you dare bring it vnto this touchstone of the scripture and it wil abide it otherwise that whatsoeuer you say to countenance it with your wordes or with the names and titles of ancient fathers and doctours that in deede and trueth it is not as you pretend I haue meetly well already shewed the opposition and contrariety betwixt your doctrine that taught in the Scriptures cap. 29. and elsewhere and yet were it an easie matter to lead on the reader to a number of such grosse contrarieties more betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Bishops for a long time and that which is taught there For it teacheth that God worketh euen in the regenerat both to will to performe euen of his owne good pleasure Phil. 2.13 and you contrariwise teach in your doctrine of free will That teacheth vs flatly that as there is but one God so ther is but one mediatour betwixt God mā the man Christ Iesus 1. Timot. 2. and you set vs vp a number of mediatours aduocates of saints and Angels besides him There we are taught that no man can lay any other foundatiō then that which is already laied Christ Iesus 1. Cor. 3.11 and your church hath laied Peter for the foundation of the church And in this scripture we are taught to worship the lord God him only to serue Deut. 6. and namely the seruice of praier beeing one of the highest and diuinest pointes of seruice that wee are to yeelde vnto him there we are taught by commandement promisse and example only to doe vnto him and you come and teach vs to worship to serue euen with diuine honour and namely with this of praier not onely saints Angels but also their reliques shrines and images What should I say more your owne consciences tell you that you haue nothing in the world
and ceremonies noted by him to haue bene in the churches of Christ insomuch that in the 21. Chapter not onely he writeth that altogither truely and in al obseruances of godly praiers two churches could not be found that did fully agree amongst themselues but also that this notwithstāding the vnity of faith christiā peace was preserued maintained amōgst them The like may be seene in Zozomens 7. booke 29. Chapter Your owne Tridentine Catechiser of your parish Priests could see as I noted before that touching dipping the party to be baptized in water pouring it vpon him or sprinkling him with it so that euery one follow therein that order that hee seeth in vse in the Church wherein hee is it is not materiall which way be vsed for which of them soeuer be vsed so saieth he this sacrament may rightly be ministred So much the stranger is it that both you here and he there your whole Tridentine councel should so peremtorily seeke to bind all churches and persons to the strict keeping and obseruing of all your foresaied rites and Ceremonies in the ad ministring of the same Further cōcerning this point I must tell you that for your pleasure I hauing turned to these places which you quote for this purpose as I finde by comparing of yours with them that they mētiō you haue many that they speake neuer a word of in these places as namely your consecrating of your water and Chrisme so lōg before your dealing with the party at the church dore your putting of salt into his mouth your dressing his nostrels and eares withspettle and your giuing him a waxe cādle burning into his hand so thereby and by view of some other places in them I plainely see that you haue now giuen ouer the vse of some which then were vsed vpon the like ground that the rest were which you would seeme to haue from them For first Tertullian in his booke de coronâ militis which is the second place you quote as there he mentions thrise dipping renouncing of the Deuill his pompe and Angels which you would seeme to allow and vse with him so he saieth that being taken from out of the water we tast before hand the temper of milke and honie and from the time of our baptisme for a weeke we absteine frō daily washing and all these doeth he ground a like saying Harum aliarum disciplinarum c. that is of these disciplines if thou requirest the law of the scripture thou shalt finde none tradition shall be pretended to be the authour custome the confirmer and faith the obseruer yet you haue left these two last long ago for any thing that I can learne And Augustine an other of your authours in this case in three of the places named by you mentiōs exufflation which you haue giuen ouer as he doeth some other that you retaine And the same authour vpon the 65. Psalme shewes that in their exorcisme they vsed fire because it is writē in the Psalm passing through fire and water thou shalt come to a refreshing and in his 4. booke ad cathecumenos de Symbolo lib. 4. cap. 1. he saieth that before baptisme was vsed beside the Catechisme exorcisme praier and canticles in sufflation sackcloth bowing of the neck humility of the feet And Hierom vpon the 55. of Esay and against the Luciferians shewes further that then was vsed the tasting of wine and hony Wherefore if the doctours and fathers mentioning of some of your ceremonies binde you to thinke the vse thereof lawfull and necessarie still why should not their authoritie bee of as great force for these which you see they ground aswell as they doe the other And if their mentioning and thus grounding of these notwithstanding you will be at liberty to leaue these why may not we aswell be at our libertie to leaue off some of the other that we finde most needles and most to haue beene abused by you to obscure and darken the simple institutiō of this sacramēt Wil you follow the fathers as farre as you list and leaue them when you list and may no body but you doe so Moreouer in looking vpon this occasion into the monuments of antiquity and the writings of the ancient fathers I must needes aduertise thee Christian reader that I finde great variety in the enumeration of ceremonies about this sacrament in them and likewise great oddes betwixt the opinion and conceite that some of the fathers shewe they had of them from that that others of as good credit as they had whereby it is euident not only that they were not vsed alike al in euery place but in some places and times more and in some lesse but also that some vsed them to one ende and some to another So that no certaine rule either for the ceremonies themselues or for the maner or ende of the vse of them can be deduced from thence Whereupon it must needes follow that for any thing writen by the ancient fathers hereof so that the essentiall parts and things belonging hereunto which haue expresse warrant from the institution thereof be obserued first and then next according to the practise and example of the Apostles and the times next after them necessary instruction and explanation to and of the right vse thereof with conuenient praiers and thankesgiuing meete to be vsed in such an action bee vsed and that also in due time and place by to before fit persons any Church of Christ in any kingdome by the prouinciall authority that it hath may freely reiect so many of the other rites ceremonies as it shall thinke good and likewise reteine so many of them as she findeth may fitly bee reteyned for order and comelinesse without placing any opiniō of necessity holinesse or of merit in them And therefore forasmuch as our Churches carefully haue taken this course in these three points and follow the same in trueth there is nothing that these fathers that you haue named consent vpon about the administring of this sacrament but we fully doe obserue the same And here in Englād especially what fault can you find Of the 5. things your fathers mentiō we reteine vse though not with any superstitious intentiō as you do 2 of thē the rest we haue cut of according both to S. August aduise your pope Stephanus iudgement before noted because the multitude before was too great for the time of the Gospel they were growen into grosse abuse amongst you No essential or necessary thing to bee done is omitted with vs and wee haue besides fully inough for the time of the new Testament wherin we liue in which time it is more likely in such ceremonies rites and fashions for vs to erre rather in retaining too many then in abolishing too many But because neither you shal say nor your reader thinke y these fathers whose names you bring vs to countenance al your ceremonies which you vse about baptisme
brother Caesarius oratione septima Ambrose for Valentian de obitu Valentiniani And for Theodosius de obitu eius and Augustine for his mother lib. confess 9. Cap. 13. Yea as William of Westminster reports in his story thus Charles the great about 800. years after Christ wrote to one Offa king here of Mercta to desire him that praiers might bee made for Pope Adrian nullam habētes dubitationem beatā illius animam esse in requie sed vt fidem dilectionem ostendamus in amicum nobis charissimum not doubting saieth he but that his blessed soule is in rest but to declare our faith and loue towardes our most deare frend Wherein they did as if a tender tutor ouer his pupill though hee knowe the childes parentes of themselues will more carefully and tenderly looke to their childe comming home vnto them from the vniuersity then euer hee did or coulde yet writing vnto them to shewe his loue towardes his scholler shoulde desire them to vse him louinglie and kindely Howsoeuer it cannot be denyed but that this was somewhat more then needed and was some occasion of further proceeding from step to step vntill there were too too playne groundes layed of popish kinde of praying for the dead yet euery man most easily may espie that this kinde of praying for the dead can neuer kindle either the fire of popish purgatory or iustifie their kinde of praying to relieue soules there Indeed it should seeme by Aerius his opposing himselfe against praying for the dead as it appeareth in Epiphanius hee did some by that time mistaking these kindes of praying for them that I haue spoken of and stretching the examples thereof further then they should at least as Aerius vnderstood them tooke vpon them so to pray for the dead that howsoeuer a man liued and died yet after he was gone by the prayers of his frendes it was thought that he should doe wel inough Against which kinde of praying for them he inueigheth as against the bane of all godlinesse and religion but herein by Epiphanius it appeareth he faulted that this being but either the opinion of the ignorant multitude or his owne onely misconstruing the Churches fashiō in remembring of the dead in their praiers or praiing for them he slanderously laied that to the charge of the Church Epiphanius therefore in answering of him laieth this downe for the ground of all the rest that those whō the Church praied for were with the Lord in rest and ioie which flatly sheweth that the Churches praying for the dead that he pleads for against Aerius maketh nothing for the popish praying for them or for purgatory But vpon this occasion AErius vrging this question whither the praiers of men aliue did profit the dead and if they did whither so far as that thereby they were deliuered from al their sinnes thereunto Epiphanius both belike quite to condemne the opinion of the ignorant multitude yet loth also to defend that which he could not iustifie first answereth onely that the praiers made for thē were profitable thē that yet not so profitable as that therby al their sinnes were done away but neither doeth he simply and plainely answere that they were profitable to the dead themselues nor once take vpō him to aduouch that thereby some certaine sinnes may be put away but subtlely leauing these things thus in suspense he flyeth to other causes and reasons why they are profitable And the causes and reasons set downe by him are these first thereby comfortably their frends aliue are occasioned to beleeue that they that are dead are not perished but aliue with the Lord secondly that thereby may be nourished in the that liue this hope that the soules of thē that are so dead are as pilgrimes gone out of their bodies to be with the Lord and thirdly that by praying so euen for the best as for patriarches prophets Apostles and martyrs it may bee acknowledged that the best were offēders that so Christ alone may haue that preheminence to be a man without sinne that so all may see what neede they haue of Christ The very like reasons to these are yeelded by him that beareth the name of Dionysius the Ariopagite of the solemne prayers and solemnities remembred by him at the buriall of the dead cap. 7. Eccles Hierarchiae where of them that die he maketh but two sortes holy and prophane placing the holy company all of them aswell the imperfecter sort as the most perfect in blessed state in their soules immediately vpon their deathes and the other in woe and eternall misery And yet he alloweth not onely for the former sort thankesgiuing but also prayers to be made vnto God that for Christs sake their sinnes may be forgiuen them for the comfort and commonifaction of them that are aliue as Epiphanius did So that though in this case it be vsuall with the Papists to make great bragges of Epiphanius and this Demus yet if they bee thorowly looked into they are more against them then with them The like may be saied of the rest of the auncient fathers whom they most make shewe of in this point for howsoeuer some of them maie seeme to come somewhat too neare them in seeming in some sort to imagine that some good may growe to the departed towards the easing of them of some of their sinnes by the prayers of the faithfull for them after they be gone hence as it cannot bee denied but that Chrysostome Augustine and some others haue thought yet that they either placed all that they prayed for to haue any of their sinnes forgiuen thē in purgatorie or that they thought that soules so tormented there for sinnes vnsatisfied for here might thereby bee freed from their sinnes not fully pardoned them ere they went hence they shall neuer bee able to proue And yet these are the thinges that they must proue or else their maner of praying for the dead is left vnproued For with one voice euen they that otherwise seeme most to fauour them in this point holde that there is no purgation or clensing from sinne but onely in the bloud of Christ that here pardon of sinnes is to bee obtained or neuer and that after this life ended there is no bettering or altering the state of the departed before the last iudgement all which are positions whereof euery one is sufficient to quench the fire of the Popish purgatorie and to ouerthrowe their ende of praying for the dead For proofe whereof let vs but cōsider of these speeches and sayings of theirs amōgst an infinite nūber of like force vttered by thē The authour of those tracts of Iob commonly fathered of Origen from whence often they would seeme in this case to haue great furniture descrybing the fashion of the church in his time saieth in the third tract or booke we celebrate not the day of our natiuity seeing it is the entrance into sorrowe temptation but the day of our death as the very laying
aside of all our sorrowes and the banishing of all tēptations because they die not but liue for euer which seeme to die and therefore saieth he we keepe the memories of the Saints and of our parents and frendes which die in the faith as reioycing for their rest so begging for our selues consūmation in the faith and to this ende to celebrate the memory of such so departed we call the poore togither and satisfy thē with victualls in token of our ioy thankfulnes for their quietnes rest He that getteth not forgiuenes of his sinnes here shal not be there and therefore saieth Dauid forgiue mee that I may bee refreshed before I go hence and be no more seene saieth Ambrofe de hono mortis cap. 2. And Cyprian against Demetrian saieth most flatly when one is gone hence there is no place for repētance no effect of satisfaction de mortalitate againe he saieth what maner of one God findeth thee when he calleth thee euen such an one also will hee iudge thee Chrysostome is as flat as Ambrose in these points For vpon the 4. of the Hebrewe hom 4. he saieth that if we come to the throne of grace now we shall haue grace mercy now is the time of gifts after of iudgemēt and in his sermon de Eucharistiâ in Eucaen there is saieth he after this life ended no negotiatiō this is the time of suffering or striuing that of crowns this of labour that of ease this of sorow that of reward therefore in the 7. Hom vpon the 2. of the Hebrewes shewing a reason of the solemnities vsed at burials he saieth that the reasō thereof is that we may glorify God giue him thāks that hath crowned taken to himselfe our brother departed freed him from his labours seruitude are not our Psalmes hymnes for this our singing omnia ista gaudētiū sunt al these saith he are the doings of men that reioyce de beato Philogonio most cōfidētly he writeth Ego fide iubeo c. that is I doe pawne my credit if any depart from his sinnes with his whole heart truly and vnfeinedly promise vnto God that he will returne no more vnto them that God will require nothing more of him to satisfaction But to come to Augustin he in his 80. epistle to Hesichius saith in what state soeuer thy last day findeth thee in the same will the last day of the worlde come vpon thee for what maner of one euery man dieth such an one then he shal be iudged and vpō the 25. Psa he plainely wisheth that only the price of the Lords bloud might be sufficient to him for his perfect freedome and deliuerance Herein we are sure they had the scriptures full of their sides For first they assure vs that the bloud of Iesus Christ doth clense vs from all sinne 1. Iohn 1. and that hee so bare our sinnes in his owne body vpon the tree that by his stripes we are healed 1. Pe. 2. Secondly they teach vs that blessed are they that dye in the Lord for euen thenceforth immediatly they rest from their labours and their works follow them Apo. 14. And thirdly likewise directly they affirme that an ill man once dead there is no more hope for him Pro. 11. and that therefore wee must haue oyle in our lāps in a readines when the bridegroome calleth vs or else we shal be shut out for euer what stur soeuer we make to prouide oyle after Mat. 25. And lastly in these vpon these grounds all men are vrged whiles the day lasteth while the acceptable time or day of saluatiō endureth whiles the Lord is nigh and may be found whiles they haue time to worke to embrace the gospel to seeke the Lord and to doe good vnto al men as it is well enough knowen And therefore if these fathers as mē at any time or any other ether by their example or writing haue in any point neuer so litle in any kind of sort crossed thēselues the holy canonicall scriptures in any of these points either in praying for the dead or in laying any groūd or occasiō therof we may boldly leaue thē chuse rather to cleaue vnto thē in these These things thus premised let vs now proceed to the particuler examining of Iohn de Albines quotatiōs for their kind of praier for the dead His first mā is Tert. for higher he cānot go to fetch any shew of colour for this matter vnles he would run to Apocrypha writings to philosophers poets to heretiques or to the notoriously knowen coūterfeit writings of Clemēt such like And out of this Tertulliā he alleageth two places the first out of his book de Monogamiâ the other out of his book de coronâ militis both which were writē by him after he becāe a Montanist as Beatus Rhenanus in his argumēts of those two books is ēforced to cōfes for in the later he mētioneth the new prophecy therby vnderstāding Mōtanus fācies in the other he most plainly cōdēneth secōd mariage quite cōtrary to the doctrin of S. Paul as Hierom hath truely noted vpon Titus and therefore both there he condemneth that booke as an hereticall booke and also in his catalogue of ecclesiasticall wryters as a booke writen against the Church Albine therfore hath aptlier then he was aware of sought out an heretique in his hereticall wrytings to bee the first man to speake for the patronising of this popish heresie of his But perhaps he wil say that he learned not of heretiques to speake for prayer for the dead Whereunto I reply that if euer he wrote any thing therin to serue your turne he learned it of no better schoolemasters then of such or of philosophers their ordinarie teachers For as hee himselfe writeth de praescript aduersus haereticos as the original of al trueth was doctrine receaued by the Apostles frō Christ so the spring of al errour hath beene frō the diuel by philosophers And touching this particuler in his booke de animâ he writeth that the philosophers that helde the immortality of the soule as Pythagoras Empedocles and Plato assigned for soules departed heauen hell and a thirde purifying place and in that booke he sheweth that Montanus his master helde that the Patriarches before Christs comming were in hell that Abrahams bosome was in hell or in the lower parts that onely perfect men and martyrs went to heauen streight and that all small offences must be punished after this life to the vttermost farthing his paraclet so expounding that of Mat. ca. de inf vlt and in that booke also he telleth of a woman lying to bee buried that at the praiers of the Priest ouer her lifted vp her hands c. whereby it seemeth that the heretique Montanus his paraclet might be very fit schoolmasters to teach him a great part of your doctrine in this point Further that you may see not only by his own
them that with them we will not run out frō this church and faith to beleeue in a 1000. things that are not God as they doe And therefore these things considered by this note they are proued to be the Antichristian false prophets heretiques schismatiques that he speaketh of and not we His second sure marke signe and token of false prophets c. is saieth he that they being departed from the catholique church doe of thēselues of their owne authority without warrant being not sent set vp a new gospell a new faith and Religion and so by preaching a newe doctrine assemble and set vp a newe church and congregation And to proue this Heb. 5. Rom. 10. and Exod. 4. are quoted whence onely we may learne to this purpose that none may take vpon them an office in Gods house without lawfull calling and warrant from him Yet hereupon as though these were most pregnant places to proue that to be necessary to a lawefull calling which the learned protestant can neuer proue to bee in our calling he promiseth likewise to yeelde and to recant when wee shall bee able to proue our iust and due vocation ordinarily or extraordinarily to proceede of God and not onely of mē By his owne words in describing this note or marke two things must concurre to the making of it namely the preaching of a newe Religion or Gospell and the doing of it without a iust and due vocation from God and yet in the prouing it to be such a marke in the applying it to vs he forgetteth altogither the former maketh only shew of proofe for the later Belike his own cōscience tolde him that howsoeuer it was an easie matter to insinuate that our religion was new that yet he was not able so much as to make any shew that he could proue it so to be indeed And touching the other howsoeuer the places quoted by him serue to proue a lawful calling or sending by God to be necessary for and to all such as shal take any office vpon them in his Church yet they proue not at al that there is any thing needful to the prouing of our vocation to be such wanting in ours neither doeth he name any thing required in any of these places to be in ours which he could say we wanted which it is likely he would not haue omitted to haue done if he had seene that with any probability he might haue done it And therefore any man may see that euen in this signe as in the former his onely ground is a false supposition that those things must needs be graunted him all which both most iustly and confidently we alwaies deny For without any proofe or shadow of proofe he in one periode assumeth three things against vs most vntruely slanderously as at large in sundry places of my answere to Albine I haue made it manifest namely that we are gone out of the true catholicke Church that wee haue set vp a new faith and religion and that we haue assembled a new Church and congregation Yea christian reader if thou wouldest but vouchsafe by the table annexed vnto this answere of mine to turne to the places in the saied answere where these points be handled the antiquity of our church and religion the newnes of popery and the contrariety betwixt the Romish church that now is the scriptures fathers and councels in the true catholicke church of Christ the lawfulnes of our calling to the ministry and the vnlawfulnes of their priesthood and vocation thereunto vnto other prelacies amongst them and when thou hast found them to read ouer wtout partiality what I haue writen hereof I doubt not but thereby thou wouldest see not onely that he vniustly hath here charged vs with these three faults but the most iustly we may charge thē with thē al. And therfore therunto referring thee for further answere vnto this threefold charge of his in this place vpon that which there thou shalt finde I hope with mee thou wilt conclude that this beeing a marke and a most certaine signe of antichristian heretiques as he saieth that it standeth faire vpon thē and not vpon vs therfore he should recāt The third signe tokē that the offerer talketh of is that such ouer and aboue the properties touched in the two former doe preach and teach contentiously and seditiously against the doctrine before time taught of the common knowen Catholicke Church of Christ as namely saieth hee against the sacraments of Christs Church by a flat denial of many of thē against the real presence of Christs body in the holy eucharist against the blessed sacrifice of the masse propitiatory both for the liue and the dead against penance the worthy fruits thereof by fasting watching and praier al straightnes of life against vowes inuocation of Saints praier for soules departed and finally against the Church it selfe flatly denying that Christ hath here vpon earth any spouse or visible Church to be heard speak perceiued or seene The ground of which signe he maketh that saying Hebrues 13 be you not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines so tearmed of the Apostle as he expoundeth him because they agree not but are contrary to the receiued and common knowen doctrine of Christs holy catholicke Church whereupon he groweth to his conclusion that when the learned protestant shal be able to proue that they and not we are by our preaching of these strange doctrines the raisers vp of these strifes and contentions then he wil recant and not before Whereunto I answere that vnderstanding by the common knowen catholicke Church the true Church of Christ which is knowen and acknowledged so to be alwaies of him and his faithfull members then we graūt that this is a right marke of such as he would haue it to be a marke of and that worthely in the thirteenth of the Hebrues all men are warned to take heed that they be not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines from that which she hath vniuersally taught and receiued But so taking the common knowen catholicke Church of Christ and not otherwise I say it and haue proued it in my answere to Albine that the Church of Rome that now is hath too long and doeth still not onely cōtentiously and seditiously but also furiously tirannically bloudely and euery way antichristianly preach against the doctrine before time taught by her and commonly receaued and professed by hers touching the true vse of the law and the gospell the office of Christ faith in him the doctrine of faith and workes and of praier and the sacramentes and almost of all other principall pointes of the true Christian religion And thus I am sure hee must vnderstand the church of Christ if either he would haue this to be a certaine signe of heretiques or to be thought rightly to haue expounded the 13. to the Hebrewes And therefore vnderstanding by the common knowen catholique Church of Christ
9. p. 322. Auricular confession coÌ„futed at large c 37. p. 322. c B. BAptisme and the ceremonies at large spoken of 308. c. Baptisme that is outward sometimes separate from regeneration 280. c. Baptisme bindeth not alwaies the baptised to be of his religion that baptised him p. 395. 410. Bad alwaies intermingled with good 404. Beza defended against Albines slanders 400 Bondage vnder poperie as great as Israels vnder Pharao 170. c. Bohemians doings coÌ„sidered and defended 291. c. C. CAluins argument against the popish priesthoode that it is not of God vnanswered by Albine p. 5. Ceremonies popish how and when many of them came in and how withstood C. p. 15. 16. Colliers faith what it is 222 Christ will bee a whole and sole Sauiour or else no Sauiour at all 419. Christs Church perpetuall but not alwaies visible in the popish sence 37. c. 122. 413. c. Church why called catholicke and so the popish church is not catholicke p. 360. Contentions and varieties of opinions amongst Christians no news they ought not to preiudice the trueth 68. 69. 250. Contentious popish many and great 70. 71. 97. 252. c. Corpus Christi day when and by whom it came in 161. Caiphas had not the spirit of prophesie as Albine would seem he had 94. 95 Crueltie of papists in seeking to preuaile to stand by force 155. c. 291. c. Cathechising in popery how bad it hath bene 179. c. Councels haue erred and that euen papists confesse 230. c. Communion vnder one kind is but a new deuise 159. Christ was to proue his calling by miracles and yet not we 188. c. 403. D. DEdicating of bookes to great persons hath good and ancient presidents A. p. 11. and 12. Departure from the Roman Church that now is lawfull 149. 394. 417. c. 409. c. E. EDucation bindeth not the party to bee alwaies of their religion that brought him vp 181. to be read but not so as to discourage the simple from the study of them 205. 208 c. Scriptures alleadged in their true sence the ground that protestants staÌ„d vpoÌ„ 205 c. Scriptures though neuer so much abused by heretiques yet by them they must be confuted 226. Scriptures must expound scriptures 47. 210. 224. Scriptures they which alleadge best they are to be followed 245 c. Scriptures must trie who hath the spirit of God 222 c. Scriptures are to bee studied and read of all men 209 c. Scriptures shamefully spoken of by papists the better to shun triall by them 82 c. 212 c. Scriptures fondely allâ—adged and applied by Papists 35 c. 218. Scriptures in some sence may well be vnderstoode according to the tradition of the Church 87. 393. Scriptures whither rightlier alleadged by protestants or papists examined 215. 216. c Scriptures are so alleaged by protestaÌ„ts that they therfore are to be beleeued and neither papist nor heretique 215 c. Scriptures are both iudge and witnes 262. Scriptures are the only souÌ„d touchstoÌ„e both of trueth church al. 33 c. 46 c. 244 406. Scriptures by Papists thought neuer to bee soundly interpreted but according to the present practise of the Roman Church 214. 219. Sinne is more strictely condemned by protestants then by papists 285. 404. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Personall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Locall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither not reall 21 c. 27 Succession Popish we reiect not so much for their bad liues as doctrine 92. 301. Succession neither locall nor personall anie certaine note of trueth 27 c. Succession in the trueth the onely succession indeede to be stood simply vpon 31 c. Supper of the Lord wonderfully peruerted of the Papists 31. 416. Supremacy of the Pope new how by whoÌ„ it came vp and by whom still resisted p. 11. c 161. c. T. Traditions beside the word writen countenanced by abusing of Irenaeus and others p. 1 2. 76 c. Traditions vnwriteÌ„ the ground of popery C. p. 5. p. 82. Traditions beside and contrary to the word writen reiected by the fathers C. 2. p. 46 78. c. 224. c. Traditions spoken for and allowed by the fathers alwaies warranted by the scriptures C. p. 2 3. Traditions vnwriten heretiques commonly flie vnto eueÌ„ as the papists doe p. 5 6 33. Transubstantiation wheÌ„ it came in and how confuted D. 7 8. p. 109. Tree that is good bringeth forth good fruit and in what sence that is to be taken 274 278. c. Trueth is to be preferred before custome all things else C. p. 7. 86. 100. 406. Trueth is not tied to bishops mouthes and chaires 28. 29. 94. 95. 151. c. Trueth is most ancient and that is it that came from the Apostles 102. Turkes and Iewes take occasion the more to be hardened for the popish doctrine of Images and transubstantiation 217. V. VIsible demonstrable succession is neither certaiâ—e note of Church not trueth 28 â—7 c. 51. Vnity and Christian peace may and ought to be kept in the Church though the rites be diuers 312. c. Vnity vnlesse it bee in verity men are not to continue in 417. c. Vnity in euery thing followeth not vpon right praying for the spirit 247. c. Vnity papists haue not though they bragge thereof neuer so much 70. 71. 97. 246. 252. Vnâ—uersalitie indeed the Romish Church hath not 388 c. Vocation ordinary hath not alwaies beene found in them that haue beene meanes of the conuersion of nations that haue profitably preached 30. 123. c. Vocation may be good and lawfull though the called haue faults 131. Vocation of what sort popish prelates haue 14 c. Vowes in popery foolish and superstitious 306. c. W. VVAnts and faultes of the Church to reforme men are not bound onely to vse praier 141. Way that is narrow both for life and religion is to bee preferred before the broad way 395. c. Workes that are good indeed rather founde with protestants theÌ„ with papists 280. c. 286. 404. FINIS Faults escaped in printing through the absence of the authour the hardnes and smalnes of the hand wherein the copy was offered to the presse and the vnacquaintance of the ouerseers with the same A. p. 1 l. 26 â— why for when 4. 16. before for vnto B. 1. 7 the for that l. 33. the for their 15. 16 for second 11. l. 20 when for whom l. 35 for the their C. 1. 12 pruning for prouing 7. 12 them for them l. 25 put in I say next therefore 12. 23 for first sixt 15. 11 put out of desposed the first s D. 2. 9 Paula for pacta and in Armonians e for o and in Moralia is for l. 6. 9. put in next them they doe 7. 1 that for the 9. 34