for them either in the Sacrifices of the Altar or of praier or almes-deedes Though yet they profit not euerie one they are made for but those alone who obtaine in their life time that they may profit them De Haeresibus haer 53. The Aerians tooke their names for à certaine Aerius who being Priest was said to be troubled he could not be made Bishop and falling into the Arrians heresie added some of his owne tenets affirming that it was not lawfull to pray or offer Sacrifice for the Dead De cura pro mortuis c. 1. In the bookes of the Machabees we reade that a sacrifice was offered for the dead Howbeit though it were not at all read in the ancient Scriptures the authoritie of the vniuersall Church which is euident in point of this custome is uo small matter where the commendation of the dead hath its proper place in the prayers of the priest which are powred out to God at his Altar Here you will marke two things The first is that saint Augustine esteemed the Machabees to be Scripture since he argues for Purgatorie from it and indeed he confirmes the same both in his seconde booke of Christian Doctrine the eight Chapter and also in his 18. booke of the Cittie of God 36. Chap. in these words The bookes to witt two of the Machabees are held to be Canonicall not by the Iewes but by the Church The seconde that though there were no scripture for it yet ought the authoritie of the vniuersall Church to preuayle at it doth in many other things of greater cō sesequence Witnesse the said Saint in diuers passages which both the Catholike and Protestant doe admitt of For first Epist fundamen moued by the authoritie of the Church we beleeue the Gospell it selfe which without it we should not beleeue I would not saith he beleeue the Gospell vnlesse the authoritie of the Catholike Church did moue me to it Secondly we beleeue many things which are not in the Scripture as that the sonne is consubstantiall with the Father It is not found written in holy writt saith he and yet that it is said is defended in the assertion of faith That the Father is vnbegotten We read not in those bookes the scriptures that the Father is vnbegotten Epist 174. and yet we make good that we ought to say so in the same place That the Holy Ghost is to be adored Giue me say you he meanes Maximinus an Arrian some testimonies where the Holy Ghost is adored as though forsooth replyes saint Augustine out of these things which we reade we vnderstoode not also some things which we reade not That it was written when the Apostle saint Paul was baptised no mention being made of the rest of the Apostles It is written when the Apostle saint Paul was baptised and it is not written when the rest of the Apostles were baptised and yet we must vnderstand that they also were baptised Finally that a child which cannot yet speake is said to beleeue and may be baptised Be it farre from me to affirme that children beleeue not c. he beleeues in another who offended in another It is answered dicitur he beleeues and it is of force and he is numbred among the faithfull baptised See what a necessitie is imposed vpon all Christians to haue some other infallible ground besides Scripture to stand vpon both to make good Scripture it selfe to witt that it is the true word of God that there are so many bookes of it and no more that we haue the true sense of it c. and many other maine grounds of Christianitie which you see we dare not denye while yet we can produce no formall scripture for them Now what ground that is let the same Saint Augustine deliuer Saint Cyprian faith he doth admonish vs that we should run backe to the fountaine that is to the Apostolicall Tradition and so bring downe the chanells to our tymes It is the best way l 5. cap 26. contra Donatistas and to be done without doubt And againe it is manifest that in a thing doubtfull the authoritie of the Catholike Church confirmed by the order of Bishops succeeding one another and the consent of people Ex libro cōtra Manichaos Dist 11.6 Palam from the verie foundation of the seas of the Apostles till this present tyme is of force to faith valet ad fidem And to know which is an Apostolicall Tradition which not De Bap. con Don. l. 4. c. 24. and l. 2. c 7. and Epist 118. c. 1. the same saint Augustine leaues vs another Rule thrice ouer for fayling What the VNIVERSALL CHVRCH holds and is not yet established in Councells but is alwayes obserued is most rightly beleeued to haue bene deliuered by no other then by Apostolicall authoritie Whence he concludes that it is a most insolent madnesse to dispute whether that ought to be done which the whole Church frequents all ouer the world But the whole Church all ouer the world in the yeare 1517. frequented as all our aduersaries confesse and condemne in vs an vnblouddy sacrifice prayer almes c. for the dead that they might be freed from their sinnes c. therfore it was following saint Augustins phrase and is a most insolent madnesse to deny it In conclusion either hath the proposition and practice of the VNIVERSALL CHVRCH auhoritie to conuince the beleife of a thing not otherwise written yea or no If not It were but meete that the simpler sorte should be instructed clearely and fairely vpon what infallible warranty they beleeue these ensuing points which they meete not with in their Bible 1. That Christians haue indeed the whole reuealed word of God 2. That it is contayned in so many bookes neither more nor fewer 3. That the Epistle to the Hebrewes is a part of it how euer it was some tymes doubted of 4. That there is a certaine number of Sacraments c. as aboue out of saint Augustine BVt if you graunt me that the vniversall Church hath such an infallible authoritie and that vpon it you depend for the certaintie of the precedent articles I may say with S. Augustine you obserue by this of what importance the authoritie of the Cathol Church is but you must also answer me why Catholikes may not with equall confidence depend vpon the same authoritie in point of assurance of purgatorie I am not able to discouer a disparitie or apprehend how being held credible in the deliuerie of those she should not also be credible in this since both are equally proposed both relye vpon the same veracitie or credit Be pleased to ponder this part well and afford the world a cleare and satisfactorie answer The grounds of Christianitie seeme to me to be shaken if the Churches veracitie herein beviolated and great pittie it were that the animositie to make good our priuate opinions should betray Gods knowen truthes An erring Disputant saith saint Augustine is
celebrate together the Memories of Martyrs with a religious solemnitie Religious worship both to excite imitation Sacrifice to be made fellow partners in their merits and to be helped by their prayers yet so as we offer sacrifice to none of the Martyrs but to the verie God of Martyrs Altars though we erect Altars in the Memories of Martyrs c. If then saint Augustins mynde be made good by so many and so manifest places To what end should the D. come yet coldly dropping another seeming place out of the said saint or to what purpose should I answere it Howbeit lets yet heare him speake for euery ones full satisfaction S. Augustin l. 2. contra Ep. Parm. chap. 8. Cos. IF the Apostle had said you shall haue one for your Aduocate and I will pray the Father for your sinnes what good or faithfull Christian would haue endured it or accompted him one of Christs Apostles and not rather haue looked vpon him as vpon an Antichrist Car. I answer first that by Aduocate which is indeed in the text Mediatour the D. will either haue S. Augustine after the Apostle to meane the Principall and immediate Mediatour Mediatour which if the Apostle had assumed to himselfe he had iustly bene looked vpon by all good Christians not as an Apostle of Christ but rather as an Antichrist or els the mediate lesse principall and impropre Mediatour which he must meane if he would haue the place to make any thing against a Catholike and to his purpose And such certainly the Apostle both might be and was and yet is farre from incurring the censure of an Antichrist sith S. Iohn was doubtlessy a Bishop and euery Bishop if we beleeue S. Paul Heb. 5. is taken from among men and is ordayned for men in things pertayning to God that he may offer both guifts and sacrifices for sinne which is to be some kind of Mediatour or Aduocate representing their miseries pleading their cause and mediating their reconcilement to God by Christ the onely properly true Mediatour of Redemptiō In this kind of Mediation are the Priests employed saith Ioel c. 2. Betweene the porch and the Altar shall the Priests the Ministers of our Lord weepe and shall say spare ô Lord spare thy people and giue not thyne inheritance into reproach that the heathens should rule ouer them and thus finally concludes S. Aug. in this place doe all Christiā men commend themselues mutually to one anothers prayers So farre is he from speaking against mediating in this second sense or consequently from apprehending that derogatorie to Christ our prime Mediatour I answere secondly that here againe is a whole clause left out whence the clearing of the difficultie was to be demanded to witt As Parmenianus in a certaine place put a Bishop Mediatour betwixt the people and God And how did Parmenianus put Bishops Mediatours c marrie as purifiers and iustifiers of men by their owne vertue and iustice since they the Donatists allowed vertue and effect to the Sacraments and Sacrifice onely according to the qualitie of the Minister or offerer which was indeed to assume to themselues the proper Mediation of Christ Iesus who onely of himselfe is able to appease Gods wrath against sinne as being our principal immediate primarie Mediatour and indeed our onely Mediatour of Redemption who by the right of his owne merits obtaynes grace forvs the others onely by him and by his merits Such a Mediatour it is manifest S. Aug. spake of in this place and such we admitt none but Christ alone who spake against the pride of the Donatists which forsoothe would haue no spott or vice to be amongst them or their fellowes as saith S. Augustine in the chap. immediately before which was a prerogatiue due to Christ alone who was that one and true Mediatour for whō none prayed he prayed for all as saith the said St. in this 8. chap. In fine one of S. Augustines principall designes in this place was to proue against the Donatists that they iniustly separated themselues from the Catholike Church vpon pretence of the wickednes of the Bishops and priests in the Church for dato that it were so indeed yet were that no iust cause of a diuision or schisme since be the Bishops and priests what they will we ought alwayes to be secure of one Mediatour Iesus Christ the iust whom we haue an Aduocate with the Father and he is the propitiation for our sinnes Hence I beleeue the weakest may obserue that it is not fairely done of Mr. Cos. to make vse of the mistaken sense of an obscure passage in an Authour to stagger the vnlettered who are not able to examine him while being examined he beares no shew of difficultie along with him COSENS S Irenaeus against Heresies 2. booke chap. 57. THe Church Catholike doth not inuocate Angels bnt purely calleth vpon God and Christ CARRE Still something is left out most important to the clearing of the difficultie S. Irenaeus his words are these Neither doth it to witt the vniuersall Church doc any thing by Angelicall inuocations nor by incantations nor by any other wicked curiositie these words by incantations nor by any other wicked curiositie are omitted but cleanely purely and manifestly directing prayers to God c. Now what doe these words incantations and wicked curiosities lead vs to but the old heretiques to witt the Symonians the Marcites Meandriās and Carpocratiās against whom he had spoken shewing here that the Catholike Church in working her true miracles did not vse their proceeding in working false ones which they did by the inuocation and superstitious naming of Angels to whom they ascribed the creation of the world by incantations and spells whereby they deluded many especially poore women robbing them of fortunes and honour with the exercise of innumerable villanies as is to be seene in the 9. 20. 22. and and 24. chapters of his first booke but by fasting and prayer performed chastely purely openly and without hope of lucre His words are That vniuerfall Church which is in euery place demanding by fasting and much prayer the spirit os life returned to the dead man who was giuen to the Saints prayers What is here yet I pray against the inuocation of Saints Cos. Origene against Celsus l. 5. ALl prayers are to be sent and offered vp vnto God by our Angel and high Priest who is the Prince and Lord of all Angels Nor will our Religion permitt vs to supplicate or pray to any other whom so euer Car. Answer First your choyce herein is not verie happie if you should make him stand vp alone against all antiquitie ingenous men would not esteeme his word were sufficient caution after his so many errours yea euen in this place where he destroyes Christs Diuinitie making him inferiour to his heauenly Father Howbeit if you admitt his authoritie vpon this matter so doe I and thus I produce him speaking of the Angels in the same place O
dreadfull sacrifice which is put vpon the altar is offered Which I will demonstrate vnto you by an example for I know many doe say what doth it profit a soule departing out of this world in sinne that mention is made of him in this sacrifice for if any king should send such into banishment as offend him and after their kindred making a crowne should present it to the same king for those banished men who suffer punishment whether would he not bestow vpon them some part of the remission of their sinnes in the same manner vsing prayers for the dead though otherwise sinners we plaite not indeed a crowne but we offer God sacrificed for our sinnes that we might make him who is most mylde propitious both to our selues and them OBSERVATION Marke here an vnbloudie worship and a propitiatorie hoste ouer which memorie was made of such as departed this life before vs c. intreating that by their prayer ours might be heard In fine prayer for all in common out of a beliefe that it is a great helpe to their soules A dreadfull sacrifice put vpon the Altar and offered for our sinnes What Church but the Rom. Catholike doth still obserue this ancient custome Gregorie Nazianzene In his oration in cōmendations of his deceased brother Caesarius Anno 380. And such things they are which we offer which if small and vnanswerable to deserts yet while we doe according to our possibilitie they are acceptable to God And some to witt things or duties we haue alreadie payed and other we will pay offering anniuersarie honors and comemorations c. OBSERVATION Anniuersaries and commemorations for the dead which we in communion with the Church of Rome still obserue and none but we At least the booke of common Prayer expresseth not such practice Gregorie Nyssene In his oration That we are not to lament their death who dyed in faith Lib. de anima Resur That either being purged in this life by prayers and the studie of wisdome or expiated after death by the furnace of a purging fire c. Againe It is altogether necessarie that while that which is faultie is consumed in purging fire the soule also which is vnited with the same faultines should remayne in the fire till that bastard materiall forged and corrupt mixture be entirely abolished being consumed by fire c. OBSERVATION Expiation after death by purging fire The soule relayned in fire till what is vicious and corrupt in it be purged by fire S Chrysostome Hom 12. in Matt. Why doest thou after the death of thy friends call the poore together why doest thou beseech the priests to pray for him I am not ignorant that your replie will be to the end the deceased may attayne to repose and that he may finde his Iudge more propitious or fauourable c. Againe Hom 21. vpon the Acts. Then shall his wife with confidence pray to or petition him God putting downe the price of our Redemption for him By how much he was more subiect to sinne by so much more stood be in need of almes deeds Call the widowes and tell his name Order euery one to make supplications and prayer for him This will appease God though it be not performed by himselfe but another for his sake be the Authour of the Almes And this is a doctrine of the dinine Mercy God hath giuen vs many wayes of saluation c. Oblations prayers and almes are not made in vaine for the dead The holy Ghost disposed all these things willing that we should helpe one another Againe Oration ◠1. vpon the first to the Corinth supplications almes oblations which he mentioned immediatly before were not rashly inuented nor doe we in vaine make memorie in the diuine mysteries of the deceased and approaching we beseech the proposed lambe who tooke away the sinne of the world in their behalfe but that they might haue some consolation thereby Neither doth he who is present at the Altar while the venerable mysteries are performed crye in vaine For all those who haue reposed in our Lord and those also who celebrate their memories c. for what we doe are not stage-playes God defend but these things are done by the ordinance of the Holy Ghost Againe In his Epist to the Philipp the 3. serm moral These things were not establisbed in vaine by the Apostolicall lawes or Constitutions that a memorie should be made of those who haue departed this life in the venerable and dreadfull mysteries OBSERVATION The priest makes prayer to God for propitiation to the sinnes of the dead For their repose The price of our Redemptiō is put downe for them Vse of the name of the deceased which the Catholike Church obserues yet in the Collect of the Masse of the dead as Peter Paul c. Prayer and supplications though performed by others appease Gods wrath is a doctrine of the diuine mercy disposed by the holy Gh. An Apostolicall constitution that memorie should be made in the diuine mysteries or Masse of the soules departed Theodoret. In the 5. booke of his Ecclesiasticall historie ◠36. The Emperour Theodosius hauing placed his eyes and aspect vpon the biere wherein were the reliques of that holy man S. Chrysostome he powred out prayers for his parents and intreated that they might be pardoned the iniuries which they had done through ignorance Now his parents were deceased long before c. Againe He offered prayers to God for the deceased beseeching him to remitt In the Historie of the holy Fathers of Iames Nisibit◠what he had offended in his life tyme and that he would daigne to receiue him into the Quire of Angels OBSERVATION Prayers at or ouer the Reliques of Saints a thing neuer heard of in our English Protestant Church for the soules departed that the iniuries which they had done might be pardoned not that the number of the elect be shortly actomplished c. which onely was the custome of the English Protestants in their Forme of Buriall Basilius Seleucius In his serm of Lazarus his being raysed to life If he who dyed were a sinner and had much offended God we must not onely weepe but giue almes also offer the Sacrifice of the Altar and performe such other things as may afford some consolation to the soule departed OBSERVATION Almes giuen and the Sacrifice of the Altar offered for the soules departed This practice is not found in the Order for the buriall of the dead in the booke of Cōmon prayer but is peculiar to the Catholike Rom. Church Procopius Gazaeus vpon the sixt chapter of Isaye makes mention of a purging fire Gregorius Presbyter In Theodoro Archiman drita Where some said to him that his mother was dead thou art deceiued quoth he she is not dead but liues He powred out prayers to our Lord for her fasting for the space of a weeke that our Lord would pardon her Leontius In the life of Iohn
were yet cloathed with a fleshly garment The seconde in these Further we offer vnto thee this reasonable obseruance for the faithfull departed for our brethren and sisters by the interuention of the Patriarkes Prophets Apostles Martyrs Confessours and all the Saints Againe Remember ô Lord as being good thy seruants and pardon what euer they trespassed in their life OBSERVATION Loe a Memento Domine pronounced aloude Prayer made for the dead that they might be deliuered from darknes tribulation and sorrow pardoned what in this life they might haue offended oblation made for them The intercessions of the Patriarkes Prophets Apostles c. employed Iudge whether it is the Catholike or Protostant practice which is here expressed and whether of these doeth more emulate the primitiue customes of their forefathers By these more then sufficient testimonies of the Greeke Fathers in their writings Councell Liturgies c. it is most manifest that it was and is the practice of the Greeke Church to offer Sacrifice to giue Almes to pray for the soules departed that their sinnes might be pardoned and they deliuered from their purging paynes their purging fire wherby what is vicious and corrupt might be purged It rests onely that we shew that it is in the sense in which the Councell of Trent holds it which is that which Mr. Cosens denies Heare the Councell of Trent Whereas the Catholike Church instructed by the holy Ghost Sess 25. by holy Writt and the ancient Tradition of Fathers hath taught in holy Councells and lastly in this vniuersall Synode that there is a Purgatorie and that the soules there detayned are helped by the suffrages of the faithfull but especially by the Sacrifice of the acceptable Altar the holy Synode commands the Bishops to vse a diligent endeauour that the wholsome doctrine of Purgatorie deliuered by the holy Fathers and Councells be beleeued held taught and preached euery where by the Faithfull of Christ Againe If any affirme that after the receipt of iustifying grace the fault is so remitted and the guilt of eternall paines so blotted out to any penitent sinner Sess 6. can 30. that there remaynes no guilt of tempor all punishment to be payed either in this life or the next in Purgatorie before we can get entrie into the kingdome of heauen let him be accursed What I pray is here which sounds not the verie same beares not the same sense with the precedent passages of the Greeke Fathers The Councell of Trent saith There is a Purgaterie The Grecian Fathers say A Furnace of purging fire The Councell of Trent affirmes that the Catholique Church instructed by the Holy Gh. c. was taught this doctrine by holy Scripture and the ancient Tradition of Fathers The Grecian Fath. The holy Ghost disposed all these things They were not rashly inuented They were not established in vaine by the Apostolicall lawes The Councell of Trent auerres That the soules there detayned to witt in Purgatorie are helped by the suffrages of the faithfull especially by the Sacrifice of the Altar The Grecian Fath. That the soules of sinners partake some benefit by the vnbloudie Sacrifice and good workes done for them That they prayed for all those who dyed from among them beleeuing that it is a great helpe to their soules for whom the obsecration of the holy and dreadfull Sacrifice which is put vpon the Altar is offered and the price of our Redemption is put downe That Oblations Prayers Almes are not made in vaine for the dead The Priest prayes that the deceased may find his Iudge more propitious That God would become propitious to the sinnes not onely of the liuing but also of the dead That it is an vndoubted custome in the Catholike and Apostolicall Church The Councell of Trent commands That the wholsome doctrine of Purgatorie should be beleeued held taught preached c. The Grecian Fath. beleeue hold teach and preach it The Councell of Trent accurses such as deny that after we haue receiued iustifying grace there remaynes any guilt of tempor all punishment either to be payed in this life or in the next in Purgatorie c. The Grecian Fath. affirme that such as are in purging paynes are helped to be freed from them by the suffrages of the faithfull yet liuing to witt by the Sacrifices of Masses prayers almes and other workes of pietie That the sinners which dye are not alwayes sent to hell That the oblations and distributions which are performed for the dead doc not à litle conduce euen to such as dyed in great sinnes Was there euer or euen could there euer be imagined a greater and sweeter harmonie vpon any point of doctrine betwixt the East and the west the Greeke and the Latine Church Is ouum ouo similius Is it not then a boldnes without the warrantie of all reason to affirme the contrarie point blank to witt forsooth that they held it not in the sense the Councell of Trent held it Did they at least hold it in the sense it is held by the Prot. Church of England in her 39. Articles Where she saith The Romish doctrine concerning Purgatorie c. is a fond thing vainely inuented and grounded vpon no warrantie of Scripture but rather repugnant to the word of God Obserue the contrariety betwixt the Greeke and English Protestant Church Origene Sinners are tormented in a purgation made by fire The Prot. Church of England It is a fond thing Article 22. Eusebius Alexand. By the meanes of prayers great rest is procured to the dead The Prot. Church of England It is a thing vainely inuented Art 22. S. Athanasius The soules of sinners haue benefit by the vnbloudie Sacrifice and good workes done for them The Prot. Church of Eng. The Sacrifices of Masses in the which it was comonly said Art 31. that the Priests did offer Christ for the quicke and the dead to haue remission of payne or guilt were blasphemous fables and dangerous deceipts Cyrillus Hier. A dreadfull Sacrifice put vpon the Altar and offered for our sinnes The Prot. Church of Eng. Blasphemous fables dangerous deceipts Cyrillus Hier. He beleeued that it to witt prayer for the dead was a great helpe to their soules The Prot. Art 22. Church of Eng. A fond thing vainely inuented S. Greg. Nyssenus Expiation after death by purging fire The Prot. Church of Eng. There is no other satisfaction for sinne but that alone Art 31. to witt the bloudie oblation finished once vpon the Crosse S. Chrysostome A Doctrine of the diuine mercy The Prot. Church of Eng. A fond thing Art 22. S. Chrys A thing not rashly inuented The Prot. Church of Eng. A thing Vainely inuented S. Chrys Disposed by the Holy Ghost The Prot. Art 31. Church of Eng. A dangerous deceipt S. Chrys An Apostolicall Constitution that memorie should be made of the soules departed in the diuine mysteries The Prot. Church of Eng. Art 22. Grounded vpon no warranty of Scripture
but rather repugnant to the word of God In fine S. Damascene Deliuers it for an vndoubted custome in the Catholike and Apostolike Church to make memorie of the Dead in the vndloudie Sacrifice But the Prot. Church of England will haue it to be a fond thing vainely inuented and the Sacrifice of the Masse ablasphemous fable a dāgerous deceipt rather repugnant to the word of God See what a goodly accord there is betweene the ancient Greeke Fathers and our new Reformers or rather behold their apparently iarring and irreconcileable discord which the smoothest witt is not able euen speciously to appease or to tune it vp to any their least aduantage Their stale and cold replies drawen from the diuersitie which they pretend to be amongst Catholikes themselues vpon this subiect gaine no credit nor are of any moment with rationall men As That they agree not about the place where Purgatorie should be Nor about the Tormentors whether Angels or Deuills Nor about the torments whether by fire or water or neither Nor about the causes of the torments of Purgatorie whether veniall sinnes onely or mortall sinnes also for which full satisfaction hath not bene made in this life Nor about the tyme which the soules tormented may remayne in Purgatorie c. Nor about their state c. For all these things swarue from the purpose as not coming home to the state of the question betwixt vs and the English Protestants which is Whether there be a Purgatorie not where the place of Purgatorie is who are the Tormenters what torments there be whether pure and true fire or some other thing equiualent c. of all which we pronounce with S. Basile Superuacua in Ecclesia sileant Let not superfluous and vnnecessarie questions be heard of in the Church especially so farre as to confound matter of Faith with matter of opinion Now these things touching the place of Purgatorie c. passe among Catholikes for matters of opinion not of Faith and are with amitie humilitie and submission disputed in our schooles but haue not yet bene defined in our Councells whence the beleife or not beleife of them are of free choyce amongst vs we being neither made of the number of the faithfull by that nor miscreants by this We are not of those presumptuous soules who thinke to haue accesse to all the diuine secrets while we know by Saint Paul that we are none of his Counsellours We are willingly persuaded by S. Basile to prayse what we haue receiued vpon the accompt of faith and what hath bene deliuered ouer in trust to vs but doe not curiously sound hidden mysteries We finally receiue of the Catholique Romane Church that there is A Purgatorie and of that we dare not doubt but where and what it is c. she hauing of that deliuered no Decree in all humilitie we dispute nor doe our doubts therin violate touch or call in question the beleife of Purgatorie that stands still vndoubted and inuiolable Since therefore all the Easterne Bishops and Fathers as we haue seene deliuer the same doctrine with one heart one mouth one faith touching purging fire c. Prayer Almes Sacrifice for the dead c. wherby great rest is procured to their soules may not I iustly admire to heare one man stand vp and affirme the cōtrarie and that with so much confidence as that he feared not to passe his word to yeald himselfe à Catholike vpon the proof of it Contra Iulianum l. 2. s. 2. and may I not with iust offence speake to him in S. Aug. words saying To what purpose doc these your words serue but to make euident to the world either how negligent you haue bene to acquaint your selfe with the words and sence of Catholike Doctors in this behalfe or hauing vsed diligence to know them with what fraude you goe about to circumuent the ignorant c. Si nesciens hoc fecisti cur non miseram respuis imperitiam si sciens cur non sacrilegam deponis audaciam si cernis cerne tandem tace Pelagianam Lutheranam linguam tot linguis Catholicis deprime tot venerandis oribus proterua ora submitte Hitherto I haue insisted vpon the productions of the Greeke Fathers authoritie onely because the challenge called thither alone though I could haue vsed a more sure and satisfactorie way the Scriptures as they are vnderstood both by the Greeke and Latine Fathers together with the practice of the whole Church of God and haue said with S. Augustine Vbisupra I conceiue that part of the world ought to suffice you in which it pleased our Lord to crowne the first of his Apostles with a most glorious Martyrdome if you would haue giuen care to Blessed Innocentius presiding ouer that Church you had forthwith freed your perilous youth from the Pelagian Lutheran snares For what could that holy man haue answered to the African Councells Anglicanis conuicijs but what the Apostolicall and Romane sea holds with the rest of the Churches c. There is no reason therefore to prouoke to the Bishops of the East because they two are Christians and that faith of both the parts of the world is one and the same because faith it selfe is Christian and certes the Westerne part brought you out the westerne Church did regenerate you c. It rest that I make the great Saint Augustine alone speake for the practice of the Latine Church and himselfe because I perceiued by a paper which M◠Cosens himselfe presented me with that he had vsed some endeauour to drawe him to his side or at least if he could preuayle no further to render his testimonie doubtfull to the end that he or others might build wood hay stubble or worse vpon that mistaken foundation which he doth most clearely in these ensuing passages S. AVGVSTIN CONF. lib. 9. cap. 12. The Sacrifice of our price is offered for her Sacrifice offered for her soule And. c. 13. booke the same Now I beseech thee heare me for the sinnes of my Mother He prayes for her sinnes Againe a little after She desired onlie that à Memorie should be made of her at thy Altar She desired to be remembred at the Altar at which she serued without intermitting any day where she knew the holie victime was dispensed wherby the hand-writing was blotted out which was contrarie to vs. To these passages some haue made answer that they doe admitt prayer for the Dead a Commemoration to be made for them at the Altar yea and Sacrifice to be offered also Howbeit not as we meane to deliuer them from their paines but for diuers other effects And that thereby we cannot enforce a Purgatorie nor did S. Augustine speake of purging fire Let the holy Father therefore answere for himselfe S. Augustine li. 2. c. 20. de Genesi against the Manichees After this life he shall haue either purging fire Purging fire or eternall punishment So farre are anie from escaping this sentence
Againe vpon the 37. Psalme They would be secure c. not onlie from that eternall fire which shall torment the wicked for euer but also from that too wich shall purge emendabit those who shall be safe by fire And a little aster That fire shall be more grieuous then any thing a man can suffer in this life Now we haue found in the Fathers formall tearmes not in our owne forced consequences which were not in question Prayer made at the Altar Sacrisice for the Dead yea and Fire too wherein their soules are tormented and yet some will not be satisfied but will haue that fire to be vnderstood of the Fire of Conflagration at the day of Doome Let vs therefore yet heare saint Augustine wipe awaie this scruple De Ciu. Dei l. 21. c. 23. Paines suffered before the day of Iudgement And it is manifest that such are purged by temporall paines which their spirits suffer before the day of iudgement Againe in the same booke chap. 13. Some suffer temporall paines in this life onlie others after death some both now and then yet before that most seuere and last Iudgement And the same againe the 21 booke chapter the first So that now out of S. Augustine we haue found Prayer Memorie at the Altar Sacrifice Fire which is temporall and that too punishing the spirit or ghost of the dead euen before the day of Generall Conslagration at the day of Doome To thinke to answer all that hath benesaid by opposing some few obscure places cull'd out of the same Father and so were it possible to force him to contradict himselfe were in my iudgment but verie bad payment For first this is not to produce euidences but doubts not to cleare but to obscure difficulties and consequently ought to haue no force at all to thrust a man out of his possession Possideo quia possideo still dasheth such weake opposition vpon the head Secondly it is but a poore shift to make a Father seeme to stand up against himselfe to the end he may stand with them Thirdly it is to treate a holy Father vnworthily to endeauour to draw his sense from his words In his booke de Doctrina Christiana against his owne rule and the Rule of Reason which is that clearer places should illustrate obscure places not that obscure places should be industriously employed to clowde cleare places That is but to put out the light to see better or rather to hate and flye the light least it might lay them naked and they be discouered by it The worst of arguments was wōt to be to ayme to proue an obscure thing by a thing more obscure and yet it is farre worse to darken a cleare thing by an obscure and yet forsooth thinke to haue so preposterous a proceeding passe for an argument Our proceeding is not such our Catholike custome is to pray for to make Commemoration of to Sacrifice at the Altar for the soules departed that they may be releeued or freed from their paines which are caused by fire before the day of iudgement And we bring in our iudge saint Augustine to whom we haue both appealed pronouncing sentence for vs in tearmes in the verie same wordes the Church doth beleeue and practise it We doe not make his sentence for him but take from him such as he pleaseth to deliuer it We vse no violence to him to make him speake what we please but we are well pleased with what he speakes we goe not about to surprise him and wrest a word from him and then force it to our purpose which was spoken only by the bye while he was treating vpon another subiect But wee take his iudgement from places where on sett purpose he is handling that subiect which is in question betwixt vs. In fine wee take it not from one or a fewe which is another Rule of reason to vnderstand a fewe places by many places but from abundance of places all cleare and consonant and to the life expressing the present practice of the Catholike Church Heare him againe and againe in these ensuing passages which I will here promiscuously putt downe as they shall occurre omitting yet a manie more S. Aug. de Ciu. Dei l. 21. c. 16. He speakes of Children soone after their infancie and saies If he haue receiued the Sacraments of our Mediatour though he end his life euen in these yeares that is being translated out of the power of darknes into the kingdome of Christ he is not only not prepared for paines eternall but shall not euen suffer anie purging torments after this life De Ciu. Dei l. 21. c. 24. The prayer of the Church or of certaine pious people are heard for those who being regenerated in Christ neither ledd se verie ill a life in this mortalitie as they should be iudged vnworthie of such mercie nor yet so verie well as that they should be found not to neede such mercie De verb. Apost Ser. 32. It is not to be doubted but the Dead are helped by the prayers of the holy Church and the sauing Sacrifice and almes which are employed for their soules that our Lord may deale more mercifully with them then their sinnes deserued for the Vniuersall Church obserues this deliuered by their forefathers that prayers should be made for those who died in the communion of the bodie and bloud of Christ when at the Sacrifice they are remembred in their place and memorie is made that it is offered euen for them too And againe in the same place But let them employ these things to witt Oblations Prayers and guifts or Almes-deeds which helpe the soules departed more obseruantly instanly and abundantly for them to witt the dead Enchir. c. 110. It ought not to be denied that the soules of the dead are releeued by the pietie of their suruiuing friends when the Sacrifice of our Mediatour is offered for them or almes are giuen in the Church And againe in the same place When therefore the sacrifices either of the altar or what almes-deedes soeuer are offered for all the dead which are baptised they are thankesguings for such as are verie good they are propitations for those who are not verie euill and though to such as are verie euill they be no helpes to the dead yet are they some kind of comforts to the liuing De verbis Apostoli Serm. 17. Therefore doth ecclesiasticall discipline obserue that which the faithfull know when the Martyrs in that place are recited at the Altar of God where we pray not for them the Martyrs but we pray for the rest of the departed whereof commemoration is made For it is an iniurie to pray for a martyr to whose prayers we our-selues ought to be commended De cura pro mortuis Cap. 18. Which being so let vs not esteeme that the dead haue anie aduantage by being buried in this or that part of the Church whereof he had spoken saue only by the solemne supplications which we make
OCCASIONALL DISCOVRSES 1. Of Worship and prayer to Angells and Saints 2. Of Purgatorie 3. Of the Popes Supremacie 4. Of the succession of the Church Had with Doctor Cosens by word of mouth or by writing from him By THOMAS CARRE Confessour of the English Nunnerie at Paris AS ALSO An answer to a libell written by the said Doctor Cosens against the great Generall Councell of Lateran vnder Innocentius the third in the yeere of our Lord 1215. By THOMAS VANE Doctor in Diuinity of Cambridge Printed at PARIS Anno Dom. 1646. With Permission Approbation A LETTER TO A Gentleman at S. Germains HONORED SIR As by many other iust titles so I am yours by this in particular of the last of Octob. for that you haue bene pleased thereby to signifie what passes at S. Germains and that you so truly resent the wrong which is done to Truth in the proclaiming of victories especially by such as you expresse it as are not guiltie of too much vnderstanding gayned by the Lord of London-Derrie D. Cosens and who not ouer all the Papist Priests they meete withall bearing all downe before them as they please to tearme it Sir I am easily persuaded to beleeue that the bruiters of such vntruths were not verie vnderstanding indeed and that they spake accordingly For I my selfe am witnesse that the Lord of London-Derrie honestly and fairely denyed that there were any such reports occasioned by him or that indeed there was any such cause and I am much mistaken if D. Cosens be found so little ingenuous as to abett so absolute an vntruth For sure he mett with none weaker then my selfe and yet to speake sparingly he bore no aduantage away as I hope this scātling Of prayers to Angels which I haue vnder his owne hād some other occasionall discourses which he will not deny will partly make good At least I most willingly leaue it to the indifferent reader to iudge of the Lion ex illo vngue rather then to haue Truth suffer through my silence where my weake endeauours might be able to contribute any thing to its libertie and luster Certainly my labour therein was not so much to answer difficulties as to discouer corruptions mistakings of and violence made against the Authours genuine sense which being once discouered the former seeming difficulties vanished of themselues Sir if you doe me that right which I easily promise my selfe from your friēdship yea euen your iustice as to conceiue I vse candor herein and speake but a measured truth you will admire with me how this could be made a subiect of triumph and glorie Thus farre to my friend then Now to euery courteous Reader I haue this humble suite to make that while he heares corruptions mistakings of and violēces made against the genuine sense of the Authours he permit not his iudgement to be forestalled with a preiudicate opinion that these words are but the effects of passion but cōtrarily that without passion or preoccupation he would haue patience to reade and iudge and if he finde thē not reall truthes no false aspersiōs let me passe for an impostour But if truthes indeede let truth be published vindicated and knowen let mē be our friends but let Truth be incomparably more our friend let the Fathers be heard speaking their owne sense without force that streames of honie may be conuayed from them into the hearts of the vnlearned not straynes of poyson And let such as vse violence against it know that Truth for a tyme may be clouded but cannot be ouercome That iniquitie for a tyme may flourish but cannot be permanent Finally that no victorie is more glorious then to be subdued by Truth Superet igitur Veritas volentem nam inuitum ipsa superabit The ensuing discourse of Prayer to Angels c. I purposed fairely and friēdly to haue examined betwixt Mr. Cos and me and therefore I addressed it to himselfe in the tearmes following APPROBATIO PErlegimus nos infra scripti in sacrâ Theologiae facultate Parisiensi Magistri duos hosce tractatus Anglicano scriptos idiomate quorum titulus est Occasionall discourses of worship prayer to Angels and Saints c. had with D. Cosens by word of mouth or by writing from him by THOMAS CARRE Confessour of the English Nunnerie at Paris As also an Answer to a libell written by the said D. Cosens against the great Generall Councell of Lateran vnder Innocentius the third Anno Domini 1215. by THOMAS VANE c. quibus fidei Catholicae elucescit veritas hominis haeretici deteguntur imposturae cuius in hac parte an praeualeat inscitia an audacia haud facile est iudicare Hos itaque tractatus vtiliter posse typis mandari in bonum scilicet tùm fidei tùm pietatis Christianae nostris hîc testamur chirographis Datum Parisiis 4. Maij 1646. H. HOLDEN IAC DVLAEVS The same in English VVEe whose names are vnderwrittē Doctors in Diuinity of the sacred faculty of Paris haue perused these two treatises written in the English tongue entituled Occasionall Discourses of worship prayer to Angels Saints c. had with D. Cosens by word of mouth or by writing frō him by THOMAS CARRE Confessour of the English Nunnery at Paris As also an answer to a libell written by the said D. Cosens against the great Generall Councell of Lateran vnder Innocentius the third An. Dom. 1215. by THOMAS VANE c. wherein as well the trueth of Catholique beliefe is mainely illustrated as the cosening wiles of an hereticall man are plainely discouered whose whether ignorance or boldnesse be more preualent in this behalfe is hard to iudge Wherefore wee testifie by these our hand-writings that the said treatises may profitably be giuen to the Presse for the furtherance of Christian faith piety Giuen at Paris this 4. day of May in the yeere of our Lord 1646. H. HOLDEN I. DVLEE NOBLE Sr. After a sincere protestation that I as much loue and honour your person as I hate what Catholike beleife oblidges me to iudge errour in you let me vse freedome without offence to tell you in all Christian Charitie that of 14. obiections which you haue made out of the holy Fathers against worship and prayer to Angels and Saints There are sixe corrupted the words or sentences most important and euen decisiue of the controuersie being absolutely left out though they were in the verie midst of the passages cited or immediatly following as 1. That of the Councell of Laodicea 2. That of S. Augustine Conf. 10. c. 42. 3. That of the same Saint contra epist Parmeniani 4. That of Irenaeus 5. That of S. Ambrose 6. That of S. Bede Fiue either forced to speake against themselues or els nothing at al for you as 1. That of Theodoret twice 2. That of Origene against Celsus 3. That of Athanasius 4. That of Epiphanius And finally three brought in for witnesses which speake not of the worship or prayer to
Angels or Saints at all and therefore not to the present purpose as 1. That of S. Austine 2. That of Tertullian twice 3. That of S Chrysostome Now that I may not onely say this but make it appeare in effect I will obserue this order fairely to put downe your seuerall obiections seuerally and in as many and the same words without changing or omitting one syllable produced by you and attend each of them in particular with my answers apprehending that the most perspicuous and satisfactorie way to the readers or hearers and least subiect to be misconstrued or misconceaued Of the worshipping and praying to Angels COSENS THat this was forbidden by S. Paul and condemned by the ancient fathers of the Church is manifest both from the testimonie of Theodoret and others and from the Canon made against it in the Councell of Laodicea CARRE That the worship and prayer to Angells as it is practised in the Catholike Apostolike and Romane Church which is the thing in question is not forbidden by S. Paul or condemned by the ancient Fathers c. which you pretend to make good by sundrie passages of the Fathers here puttdowne I hope to make as cleare as the said Fathers owne plaine words can make it COS. Let no man seduce you through humilitie and the Religion or worshiping of Angels They that maintaynd the law induced the Colossians to worship Angels telling them that the law was giuen by Angells and therfore that they ought to be worshipped And this vice continued a great while among them both in Phrygia and Pisidia Therfore the Councell which was gathered together at Laodicea which is the Metropolitan Citie of Phrygia forbad it by a law and commanded them that they should not pray to Angels To this day are to be seene the oratories which they and their neighbours made to the Angel S. Michael And this they did praying to them out of humilitie saying that the God of Heauen and earth was inuisible and incomprehensible to whom they could not come and that therfore it behoued them to procure his fauour by the Angels And this was it which S. Paul meant when he said Let no man seduce you through humilitie and the worshipping of Angels CAR. We answere that that passage of S. Paul is to be vnderstood of such as are so seduced as that they giue away to creatures soueraigne worship which is due to God alone And in this sense we with S. Paul crye out Let no man seduce you c. And that this is not said gratis but is indeed the true sense of S. Paul appeares first out of S. Chrysostome vpon the same place saying There are some who say that we are to be brought to God by Angels and not by Christ 2. by the cōtext or sequell of words in the verie next verse and not holding the head to witt Christ but in lieu of Christ substituting Angels as saith the said Theodoret and S. Anselme 3. by the Councell of Laodicea it selfe to which wee haue Theodoret wholly alluding and referring to it and therfore is to be interpreted by it Let vs heare then what it saith and consequently what Theodoret would and must say COS. The words of the Canon made by the Councell of Laodicea about 1300. yeares since be these CAnon 35. That Christians ought not to forsake the Church of God and goe to the Angels makeing priuate meetings for that purpose which are wholly forbidden therfore if any one shall be found to follow this secret and priuate Idolatrie let him be accursed Car. Here is somewhat not rightly putt downe some thing quite left out Take it as followes That we ought not to relinquish the Church of God and depart thence and nominate Angels and to make assemblies which are knowen to be forbidden Therfore if any shall be found to follow this secret Idolatrie Let him be accursed Because he forsooke our Lord Iesus Christ the son of God and abandoned himselfe to Idolatrie or went to Idols These words because he forsooke our Lord Iesus Christ the son of God and abandoned himselfe to Idolatrie or went to Idols are quite left out being yet the most important to decide the difficultie betwixt vs though immediatly following and clearely deliuering the reason or cause of what preceeded Is there now any need of further answere Doe Catholikes hold that they ought to forsake the Church of God and to depart thence to name call or if you please inuocate Angells Doe they to that purpose make any secret assemblies which are publikely forbidden Doe they finally forsaking our Lord Iesus Christ the son of God giue themselues ouer to Idolatrie and thereby draw the curse vpō their shoulders it being imposed for no other cause as the Councell it selse expounds it selfe designing the particular reason of the curse saying Because he forsooke our Lord c. why did you then deale so spareingly with your friends as by leauing out what was most important to leaue them with some apparent doubt quaking vnder the feare of a curse if they should worship or pray to a Saint wheras the words being produced made most cleare that there was indeed no cause of feare at all In a word that this Canon cannot be meant of the Religious worship which the Catholike Church payes to Angels and Saints is further manifest both by the Canon 34. immediatly preceeding in the same Councell where the Religious worship of a true Martir is approued in these words A Christian ought not to forsake the Martirs of Christ and goe to false Martirs And also by the 51. art following We ought not to celebrate the birthdayes of Martirs in Lent but onely to make a memorie which we call now a cōmemoration of them vpon saturday and sonday Iudge then whether it were likely that the holy Councel would with one breath both establish and destroye the worship due to Angels or Saints the difficultie equally vrgeing against them both Againe the phrase of the Councell being nominare Angelos I would fayne know by what rule it is rather englished to goe to the Angells then as the words vsually signifie by the cōmon consent of men to nominate or name the Angels which is wont to be done in coniurations and enchantements c. which sense the canon 36. immediately following seemes particularly to fauour and cōfirme as rendring the reason of the precedent canon because saith it the ministers of the Altar or Clarkes ought not to be Magicians or enchanters or to make certaine scrolls Phylacteria wherin things are written c. in such were the Pharisies accustomed to write the Commandements and to weare them about their heads or armes in a superstitious manner as appeares by Hierome Oleaster vpon Deut. c 6. Nor doth this passage of Theodoret any whit preiudice the Catholike cause all things being well ballanced First because his sense herein is the sense of the Councell which you see toucheth vs not Secondly his words being duely considered
what he meanes not and what the subiect doth not â—â—acte as shall be showne by the context and the scope of the Authour In the interim take his words as they lye For neuer would any pray to receiue any thing of God and the Angels or of any created things nor did any conceiue this forme of words GOD AND THE ANGELS GIVE it THEE but contrarily of the Father and the sonne for their vnitie and vniforme reason of giuing Nor doth the Cathol Church vse any such forme of prayer as ioyning the Angells with God by reason of their vnitie and vniforme reason of giuing which is the holy Fathers sense Which that it may plainely appeare to be so indeed let vs onely reflect against whom he speakes and what argument he vseth He is here disputing against the Arrians vpon this passage of S. Iohn Ego Pater vnum sumus The Arrians would haue that place to be vnderstood of one in will S. Athanas of one in substance and thus he argues a litle before the place in question If saith he for that reason to witt because they will and nill the same the Father and the sonne were to be held to be the same thing and by that meanes the Word were esteemed to be like the Father then were it necessarie too that Angels and other things more excellent then wee the Principalities Powers Thrones Dominations and the rest which appeare in heauen the sun moone and starrs should be so esteemed the sonnes of God as Christ is his sonne and this speech also should be pronounced of them they and the Father are one sith what God wills they also will Which if it were true they also would be admitted into the same power of giuing with the soÌ„ne but that is false therfore and that too which preceeded That that is false he goes on prouing out of S. Paul grace and peace be to you from God our F. and from Iesus Christ c. admitting none of the creatures into his fellowship in the power of giuing ratione in that behalfe or respect Now saith he the verie manner of giuing doth conuince the vnitie of the Father and the sonne for neuer doth any pray to receaue any thing in this forme of words God and the Angells giue me such a thing as we say God the father and the soÌ„ne giue me c. with S. Paul 〈◊〉 that this passage doth not at all speaake of prayer to Angels in the sense we defend it in that is as they make intercession to God for vs in qualitie of faithfull seruants of his as being his creatures infinitely inferiour to him c. not by reason of their vnitie with him and vniforme power of giuing as aboue which alone is the sense reiected by S. Athanasius not the honour and prayer to the Angels and Saints which was the practise of that Age as may partly appeare by these few passages In a Sermon of our Blessed Lady towards the end which is among his workes and verie ancient if not his owne ANd now giue eare ô thou daughter of Dauid and Abraham and incline thine eares to our prayers forgett not thy people nor vs who are of thy familie and of thy Fathers house Againe in the same place Where vpon all the rich among the people pray to thee as being enriched with these goods and spirituall contemplations We cry vnto thee be myndfull of vs Most holy Virgin c. A litle after We exalte thee with shrill and resounding voyces saying I salute thee Lady full of grace our Lord is with thee make intercession for vs ô Mistresse Lady Queene and Mother of God And the same is made good more fully by the Fathers of the same Age. First by S. Hilarie The Angels of the litle ones are ouer the prayers of the faithfull In MattheuÌ„ 18. And againe The Angels doe dayly offer vp to God the prayers of those which are saued through Christ S. Ephraem O my most clement God haue mercy on thy creature In fine orationis de laudibus sanctae Dei matris by the intercession of the mother of God alwayes a Virgin and of the Hostes of Heauenly spirits and companies of Angels of Cherubim Seraphim Prophets Martyrs c. S. Basile By the intercession of the Holy Mother of God and all these who haue foreâ—â— glorifyed thee Basil in his Liturgie sanctifie our soules and bodies and grant that we may serue thee in sanctitie all the dayes of our life Againe Who is in tribulation flies to the fortie Martyrs In Homilia in 40. Martyres prope finem such as are in prosperitie betake themselues to them too the one to be deliuered from his affliction the other to be continued in his prosperous condition This good woman is heard to pray for children and to sue for a safe returne to her husband abroade and for his health while he is infirme S. Gregorie Nyssene He to witt Meletius deceased makes intercession for vs and for the sinnes of the people In oratione De obitu Meletij Episcopi Againe We stand in need of many benefits interceede In oratione de Theodoro Martyre and make earnest entreatie for our countrie to our common king and Lord. Againe As a soldier pray for vs as a Martyr vse the libertie of speech for thy fellow seruants c. Begge for peace that these publike assemblies may not be interrupted IbideÌ„ paulo post least the cruell and wicked Barbarian may rage and make violence against the temples and Altars least the profane and impious tread â—â—ly things vnder their feete for euen we who are conserued fafe and sound aseribe that benefit to thee and petition for safe guarde and securitie for the tyme to come c. S. Gregorie Nazianzene But thou ô sacred and dinine man looke downe vpon vs from aboue In fine orationis in lâ—â—dâ—m S. Basilij and either stoppe the sting of the flesh which God hath giuen vs for our exercise or preuayle that we may endure it with courage c. Saint Ambrose also followed in in this age and gaue restimonie to this Truth as you will see in my answer to the ensuing obiection COSENS S Ambrose in 1. cap. ad Rom. THey that neglect to come vnto God himselfe and goe to him by others vse to make this miserable excuse that by the helpe of others they can come to God as by the helpe of noble men they can come to the king Goe to It is treason to take the honour or Maiestie of a king and to giue it to a Lord. And doe these men thinke to escape if they giue the honour of God to a creature and worship it For therfore doe men goe to a king by great and noble personages because the king is no more then a man himselfe But to come to God who knowes euery thing and to procure his fauour there is no such need of a helper or suffragator For
Luke where writing vpon these words It is written thou shalt adore the Lord thy God and serue him alone he speakes both exactly and amply with all some saith he peraduenture will demand how these two be reconciled together to wit what is here commanded to sErue God alone and that of the Apostle scrue one another mutually out of Charitie But this findes an easie solution out of the originall Greeke text whence the Scripture was translated where the seruice is named in two different manners bearing withall a diuers signification for it is called both Latria and Dulia true it is that Dulia is taken for a common seruice that is à seruice which of its owne nature is indifferently exhibited to God or any other thing whatsoeuer Whence also we haue the word seruant which the Grecians call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Latria contrarily is taken for that seruice alone which belongs to the worship of the Diuinitie which is communicable to noe creature at all Wherevpon they are pronounced Idolaters who offer vowes prayers and Sacrifices to Idols which they owe to God alone Wherfore we are commanded to serue one another through Charitie which the Grecians call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And we are commanded to serue God alone with that worship which the Grecians call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Againe Let vs alwayes serue such a Queene who forsakes them not who hope in her Iesus Christ being pleased in and hearing the prayers of the Saints doth much more heare his mother when she prayes for sinners In one of his Sermons of our Blessed Lady in his 7. Tome Againe Let vs demand for vs the frequent intercessions of the Saints be they Angels or men to the mercy of our gracious Creatour Vpon the Cant. l. 4. c. 24. Againe Let vs pray to all the Saints to make intercession for vs to God In a Serm. vpon the great Litanics Tome 7. Hauing now giuen full satisfaction as I presume to any impartiall reader not onely that all these specious passages alleadged out of the Holy Fathers against vs conclude nothing at all many of them being manifestly corrupted others forced others mistaken but contrarily hauing euidently made good by positiue and plaine allegations out of the said Fathers others I would not in this short discourse though with great facilitie I could haue alleadged that they are wholly for vs I will passe on to another of his assertions spoken and put downe vnder his hand with an admirable confidence against Purgatorie in these tearmes OF PVRGATORIE Cos. THAT none of the Greeke Fathers holds Purgatorie in the sense in which the Councell of Trent holds it Car. I beleeue Mr. Cosens were you obliged to make alwayes good the propositions which vpon all occasions you aduance with such an absolute boldnes and in such a generalitie as this is now asseuered you would fall as farre short in your proofes as you ouerlash in your positions The Councell of Trent consisted if we should euen abstract from the assistance of the holy Ghost which I dare not thinke was wanting not haue I any reason for it no more then for the first foure Generall Councels that assistance being promised to the Church in generall in what tyme or place soeuer that the spirit of trueths hall be with you for euer in aeternum S. Iohn cap 14. And shall teach you all trueth ibid cap. 16. of such a companie of learned and pious Prelates and other Ecclesiasticall persons as it ought in common sense to be exeÌ„pted from the rash censure of euery single opponeÌ„t whilest it is generally admitted in all matters of Faith by all the symbolicall Church spread ouer all the world and in communitie with the Church of Rome and was reiected by none saue onely by a diminutiue part of the least part of the world Europe which actually then made a schisme from it which was then confessedly the onely visible Church of Christ Howbeit for euery ones satisfaction we will heare what the greeke Fathers haue saâ—d vpon this subiect S. Denis And then the diuine Prelate drawing neere Ecclesiast Hier. c. 7. he finisheth his holy prayer ouer the deceased and after the prayer the same Prelate salutes him and withall all the assistants euery one in their ranke This prayer petitions the diuine mercy to pardon all the sinnes which the deceased had committed through humane frailitie and that he would place them in light and in the Land of the liuing and in the bosome of Abraham Isaac and Iacob in the place where forrow sadnes and wailling is banished c. Origene l. 8. in Rom. 11. He alone to whom the Father hath giuen all iudgement is able to know for how long a tyme or what ages sinners may be tormented in this purgation which is made by fire Euseb Alexandrinus Memento c. Hem. de Dominica Be myndfull in the oblation or as we now say put them into your Memento of your parents and brethren who are already departed this life for by this meanes you procure great rest to the dead Accomplish thy prayers S. Zenon Serm. de Resur extat to 2. â— b. PP By her he speakes of a widow lamenting the death of her husband profane wailing she interrupted the diuine solemnities wherin the Priests were accustomed to commend the deceased to God Eusebius Caesariensis In vita Constan l. 4 cap. 71. A great multitude of people together with the Priests not without teares and truly with great expression of sorrow powred out prayers to God for the soule of the Emperour c. Athanasius Quaestione 34. Why then doe euen the soules of sinners perceiue any benefit when assemblies are made for them exhibitions of good workes and oblations If they did participate no benefit therby there would be no commemoration made in the care taken and in their funeralls But as the vine doth flourish abroad in the fields and the wine shut vp in the vessell resents its odour and flourisheth together with it so we vnderstand that the soules of sinners doe partake some benefit by the vnbloudie sacrifice and good workes done for them as our God alone doth order and command who hath power ouer the liuing and the dead OBSERVATION Behold the soules of sinners haue benefit by the vnbloudie sacrifice and good workes done for them Cyrillus Hierâ—â—ol Catechesi Myâ—ag 5 And then as soone as that spirituall sacrifice and that vnbloudie worship ouer that propiiiatorie hostâ— propitiationis Hostia is performed we beseech God for the coÌ„mon peace of the Churches for the quiet of the world forkings for soldiers And then we make mention of such as dyed before vs. First of the Patriarches Prophets Apostles Martyrs that God by their prayers would receiue ours Then for the deceased Fathers and Bishops Finally we pray for all those who dyed from amongst vs beleeuing that it is a great helpe to their soules for whom the obsecration or prayer of that holy and
Popedome of Innocentius and we desire you fairely to produce the like euidence or els cease vniustly to pretende the succession which you can shew no right to Finally that it is the onely short and sure way to discerne trueth from falshood which is the onely thing we ought to ayme at the great Tertull. testifies and makes manifest What the Apostles preached saith he that is what Iesus Christ reuealed vnto them ought not to be tryed Praescrip c. 21. nor proued saue onely by the same Churches which the Apostles founded by preaching vnto them by word of mouth or afterwards by their Epistles Which things being so it is euident thence that all doctrine which doth conspire or agree with those Apostolicall Churches which are the Mothers matrices and sources of faith is to be esteemed true as holding without all controuersie what the Churches receiued of the Apostles the Apostles of Christ Christ of God Marrie all other doctrine ought to be preiudged of falsitie which sauours against the Truth of the Churches Apostles Christ and God c. But we Catholikes miscalled Papists communicate for the present and did communicate with the Apostolicall Church of Rome in her Pastour Alexander the VI. in the yeere 1500. as holding no doctrine contrarie to it but conspiring with it therefore our Doctrine is to be iudged true the contrarie to be preiudged false This concludes Tertullian is an EVIDENCE of Truth or accordin to Irenaeus plenissima ostensio a most full DEMONSTRATION Such a Demonstration it is which we demand of you in the hehalfe of your Protestant Church from the yeere 1500. downeward of your Church I say whether you define it as in the 39. Art The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithfull men Art 19. in which the pure word of God is preached and the Sacraments be duely ministred c. Or as you describe it by oppositiō to ours tearming it a Congregation of men c. which opposeth Masses vnbloudie Sacrifice adoration of the consecrated hoste worship of Angels and Saints and prayer to them Purgatorie the Supremacie the infallibilitie of the Church c. Assigne the place where this Congregation appeared giue vp the names at least of some of their chiefe Bishops or Pastours or Doctors or Elders Verifie that they preached against the Masse vnbloudie Sacrifice c. Rationall and modest men will iudge I am spareing enough in these my demands sith it is to goe no further then a Definitione ad definitum to know where this Cōgregation c. then was yea euen your owne men confesse it For will not a Fulke against Fulke say that Pastors and Doctors haue alwayes bene in the Church Heskins and Sanders p. 69 and that they haue continually from Christ to Luthers tyme resisted false doctrine will not others maintaine b Bācroft in Recognitione pag. 441. That the administration of the word and Sacraments is absolutely necessarie to saluation c Willet in his synopsis pag. 71. That the Church continues no longer then it hath these markes d Hiper in his common places l 3. p. 548. That these markes ought to be externall and visible to the end men may know where the Church is and to what societie euery one of the faithfull ought to ioyne himselfe Finally e Whitgift in Def. p. 465. that the Church of God is not to be shut vp in one kingdome c. My demand is sparing enough then I say for I might well require further according to the Ancient Fathers Rules aboue to haue it euidently proued that such a Church or Congregation had alwayes bene in all tymes and places one and the same and that too made good by continuall and vninterrupted succession that so it might appeare to haue descended from some of the Apostles and consequētly be indeed as the true Church is defined in the Nicene Creede one holy Catholike Apostolique Howbeit knowing well that neuer yet any Protestant hath returned a faire answer euen to these few demands I will presume you will find it worke enough for the present to point vs out within the tyme prefixed The place where the Congregation was assembled The names of the Preachers or Preacher at least with euidence that he preached or held the Doctrine of the thirtienyne Art or what els may be meant by the pure word of God or opposed that which is contayned in the Councell of Trent And that they or he duely administred the Sacraments and that but two onely according to Christs ordinance c. Doe not I beseech you as you sometymes did name S. Ignatius That is too prodigious a leape at once to skippe aboue 1400. yeares backwards and yet not proue your affirmation neither to which euery disputant is lyable I could with like facilitie name him too and yet you would not admitt that for good payment You will please to remember the thing I demand is that you would acquaint vs with the names of some of your Bishops or Pastours c. in the beginning of the 16. Age not in the end of the first As S. Ignatius passed too tymely for our present purpose so Bishop Tunstall and B. Gardner came too sate though you made no bones to name them too but sure you were not serious with your friends in a subiect which exacted it or els your poore answer is a plaine conuiction how desperate your cause is They haue both left learned workes behind them which will euer speake them Roman Catholikes a Tunstall pag 47. de verit Corp. Christi Ed. Parisianae 1554. The Transubstantiation and the b Idem in codem lib. pag. 93. Sacrifice of the Masse are not tenets of the Protestant Church to name no more a Et Gard. in Confutatione c. pag. 73. Nor did Bishop Tunstall sure dye a Prisoner in Lambeth in Queene Elisabeths tyme for being a Protestant b Idem in codem lib. p. 5. If this assertion then to witt that Bishop Tunstall and Bishop Gardner helped to continue the succession of the Protestant Church which came accompanied with noe countenance or apparence of Truth were tearmed impudent what wrong were done to it since it could not fall from a man as hauing any thing of satisfaction any face of reason but as a Mercurie of euery wood to stand in the light and to stoppe the course of Truth which S. Augustine might haue haply tearmed inanissimam vocem temeritatisque plenissimam l. de moribus Ecclesiae Cath. c. 29. For was it euer written euer affirmed euer called in question by any By any I doe not say by Catholikes but euen by Protestants themselues Nay doe not euen a In l. de Praesulibus Anglia in vita Tunstalli Good man and b In Elisabetha pag. 37. Camden deliuer the contrarie and put it out of all doubt Doe not flie to the Catholike Romane Church neither that were too poore a shift to begge a succession