Mary why did not you put in also Elizabeth Mother of the great Baptist and the Angel Gabriel as well as Michael Ismael I know not indeed Isaac Nor do I know if it be not because that Elizabeth and Gabriel made the Popish Ave Maria as Scripture relates but can you tell as the Church of England put in your Kalender St. George St. Andrew and St. David Patrons of England Scotland and Wales why did not she put in St. Patrick Patron of Ireland Ismael I can't tell What may be the reason think you Isaac I know not if it be not that he forfeited his place for his Purgatory for tho the others were as deep in Popery as he if we believe the Papists but the Parliament pass'd an Act of Indemnity for England Scotland and Wales after the Kings return to his Kingdoms and thereby the sin of Popery was forgiven to their Patrons and no Act of Indemnity was past for Ireland whereby Patrick is still guilty if it be not that the Seven Champions of Christendom tell us St. Patrick was St. George his Footman and it was not thought good manners to put him in the same rank with his Master Ismael For shame if not for pitty forbear I cannot endure to fully Sacred things with profane Ralleries the Kalender is a holy institution of the Church and ought to be reverenc'd Isaac And so is Episcopacy Surplices Bells Organs and Corner Caps yet I hope you will give Presbyterians Anabaptists Quakers c. leave to laugh at them and be still as good Children of the Reformation as you if you esteem them to be Sacred and Holy reverence and honour them I commend you for it if others Judge otherwise let them follow their humour each one as he fancies says the Fellow kissing his Com this is the holy Liberty of the Reformation Scripture as each one understands it Ismael Let us return to our last discourse how is it possible that those Tenets of Popery â—…ould be the Doctrin of the Reformation whereâ—â— we see the Church of England so severely perâ—â—ecute the Professors of them Isaac Do you think a Doctrin is not of the Reformation because it 's denyed by the Church of England or because she persecutes the Proâ—essors of it do not they persecute all Non-conforâ—ists as well as Popery persecution is no proof of a Doctrin to be bad it 's but the effect of a blind zeal armed with power for to know cerâ—ainly if a Doctrin be of the Reformation you must try it by our Test or Rule of Faith which is the written Word of God and whatever any man of sound Judgment of a sincere and humble heart judges to be contained in Scripture or â—n indubitable consequence out of it that man may believe that Doctrin let all others Judge of it as they list and by so believing will be a true Child of the Reformation wherefore since that the Church of France that of England in Edward the VI 's time Luther Melancthon Grotius and the other Authors I quoted do Judge Transubstantiation Popes Supremacy and Communion in one kind to be the Doctrin of Scripture we must call it the Doctrin of the Reformation and if you judge as they did you may believe the Doctrin and be still of the Reformation as well as they Ismael Can you shew me any other Tenet of Popery which you can call the Doctrin of the Reformation Isaac Alas you can hardly shew me any Tenet of Popery but what is it's Doctrin what Doctrin more Popish than that of Confession and Absolution from sins yet it 's as truly the Doctrin of the Reformation as figurative Presence for not only Lobechius Altamerus Sacerius and Melancthon says it 's a Sacrament but the Church of England in our common-Common-Prayer Book declares that Priests have not only the power of declaring their sins to be forgiven to the Penitents but also the power of forgiving them and sets down the form of Absolution which the Minister is to use Our Lord Jesus Christ who left power to the Church to absolve all sinners which truly repent of his mercy forgive thee and thine offences and I by his Authority committed unto me do absolve thee from all thy sins The Minister of the Diocess of of Lincoln in their Survey of the Book of Common Prayers checkt this Doctrine as Popery and petitioned to have it blotted out but could not prevail whereby we are given to understand it 's the Doctrine of the Reformation It 's Popery we say to call extream Uuction Confirmation and Holy Order of Priest-hood Sacraments and who can justly deny all this to be the Doctrine of the Re-formation for Calvin says I confess the Disciples of Christ did use Exâ—ream Vnction as a Sacrament I am not says he of the opinion of those who judge it was only a Meâ—â—cine for corporal diseases Calvin also and with him our Common Prayer Book and all our Divines say a Sacrament is nothing else but a Visible sign of the invisible Grace we receive by â—t and they say with Pouel Hooker and others that this definition fits exactly Confirmation wherefore the Ministers of the Diocess of Lincoln checkt the Common Prayer Book for giving the Definition of a Sacrament to Confirmation Melancthon Bilsom Hooker and Calvin expresly teach that the Order of Priesthood is a Sacrament And when men of so eminent Judgment of our Reformation teach this to be the Doctrine of Scripture who doubts but that it is of the Reformation Ismael By this you destroy the Doctrine of the Reformation of two Sacraments only Is Destroy it God forbid Because the Church of England says there are but two Sacraments I say it 's the Doctrin of the Reformation there are but two and because so many eminent Men judge by Scripture there are more I say it 's the Doctrin of the Reformation there are more that 's to say six Baptism Confirmation Eucharist Pennance Extream Unction and Holy Order and very likely our Bishops and Ministers for their Wives sake will not stick to grant that Matrimony also is a Sacrament Ismael But can you say that Prayers to Saints and Images Prayer for the dead and Purgatory are not meer Popery and in no wise the the Doctrine of Reformation Isaac Without doubt those Tenets are Popery but all the World knows the Lutherans use Images in their Churches and pray before them and the Holy Synod of Charenton has declared as was said in our first Dialogue that the Lutherans have nothing of Superstition or Idolatry in their manner of Divine Worship this is also the Doctrine of Jacobus Andreas Brachmanus Kemnitius Luther and Brentius quoted by Beza and why should not a Doctrine Judged by such eminent Men to be of Scripture be called the Doctrin of the Reformation Prayers for the dead and Purgatory is Popery confessedly but alas it is taught expresly
is to cast dirt upon his Church the honest Quaker will say I am a profane man others perhaps will say I am of no Religion but a Despiser of all and our Congregations are so uncharitable that likely none will accept of me because I say all Religions are very good a sad thing that a man must be hated for speaking well of his Neighbours and that each one must have all the World to be naught but himself This then is my Religion To suffer Persecution for Justice and Truth to render good for evil to bless those who curse me and speak well of all Congregations whilst they speak all evil against me reflect well upon what I discoursed hitherto and you will find I am as great a Lover of the Reformation as they who may think me it's Enemy and read my following discourse and you will find I love Popery as well as the Reformation The Spirit of God makes no exceptions of Persons Ismael You promised to prove by the principles of the Reformation that we may believe all the Tenets of Popery and remain still of the Reformation how can this be Isaac You remember I excepted one Principle of Popery wherein you must necessarily dissent from them and if you deny this one Principle you may believe all their other Tenets as well as the Pope and be as good a Child of the Reformation as Luther Ismael What Principle is this which you seem to make the only destinctive sign of a Reformed from a Papist Isaac Listen a while a Papist is not a Papist because he believes Purgatory Transubstantiation Indulgences and the rest of Popish Tenets but because he believes them upon the Testimony of the Pope and Church because they assure him they are revealed Truths If a Papist did say I believe these Tenets because I my self do judge by Scripture that they are revealed and not because the Pope and Church say they are he would be no Papist The Papist believes the Mystery of the Trinity the Incarnation and Passion of Christ the Protestant believes the same Mysteries yet the one is a Papist and no Protestant the other is a Protestant and no Papist And why because the Papist believes them upon the Testimony of the Pope and Church the Protestant believes them upon the Testimony of Gods written Word Believe then whatever you please of Popery provided you believe it because you judge by Scripture it 's true and not because the Pope or the Church says it you 'll never be a Papist but a perfect Reformed Ismael If this discourse be solid you may hedge in all the Articles of Popery into our Reformation Isaac If you peruse the works of our Reformed Doctors you 'll hardly find any Article of Popery but has been judged by many or some of our best Reformed Doctors to be the true Doctrine of Scripture and whereas any Doctrin which any Person of sound Judgment understands by Scripture to be the true may be justly called the Doctrin of the Reformation it follows that hardly is there any Article of Popery for which we see so many persecutions against Subjects and such troubles in our Parliaments but is truly the Doctrin of the Reformation Ismael Shew me some Examples of this Isaac The Veneration of Relicks and Saints dead Bones is generally believed by us to be meer Popery and Superstition therefore we made no store of Luther and Calvins Bones tho we know them to be as great Saints as any in the Popish Church but Veneration of Relicks and Saints Bones is the Doctrin of our Reformation for whatever is set down and commended by our Common-Prayer-Book must be undoubtedly esteemed our Reformed Doctrin and Practice and our Common-Prayer-Book aprinted since our Kings happy Restauration in it's Kalendar sets down a day to the Translation of S. Edward King of Saxons Body in the month of June and dedicates another to the Translation of the Bodies of St. Martin and Swithin in the month of July The Veneration and use of the sign of the Cross is flat Popery in the Judgment of all our Congregations yet any Reformed Child may laudably and piously use it whereas our Common-Prayer Book in the Administration of Baptism Commands the Minister to use it saying We sign him with the sign of the Cross in token that hereafter he shall not be ashamed to confess the Faith of Christ crucified and Manfully to fight under his Bannar against Sin the World and the Devil And in our Kalender printed since his Majesties Restauration it 's called the Holy Cross Our Congregations generally believe it 's Popery to keep Holy-days except the Sabbath day and Saints days to fast in Lent Vigils commanded Ember-days and Fridays and all this is recommended to us in our Common-Payer Book and the Minister is commanded in the Administration of the Lords Supper to publish the Holy-days of the week and exhort us to Fast and surely he is not commanded to teach or exhort us to any thing but to the Doctrin of the Reformation it 's true the Students of our Colledges of Oxford and Cambridge are much troubled with scruples in this point these Pauperes de Lugduno are compelled to fast all Fridays throughout the year and it 's not hunger that makes them complain but tenderness of Conscience because they fear it's Popery It 's a Popish errour we say to believe that Pennance or our penal works of Fasting Alms-deeds or corporal Austerities can avail and help for the remission of our sins and satisfying Gods Justice No we say penal works serve for nothing all is done by Repentance that 's to say by sorrow of heart for having offended God. This is the Doctrin of Danaeus Willit Junius and Calvin who says Francis Dominick Bernard Antony and the rest of Popish Monks and Fryers are in Hell for their Austerities and penal works for all that you may very well believe and it 's the Doctrin of the Reformation that Pennance and penal works do avail for the remission of our sin and are very profitable to the Soul for our Common-Prayer Book in the Commination against sinners says thus In the Primitive Church there was a Godly Discipline that at the beginning of Lent such as were notorious sinners were put to open Pennance and punish'd in this World that their Souls may be saved in the day of the Lord. And our common-Common-Prayer Books wishes that this Discipline were restored again and surely it does not wish that Popery were restored therefore it 's no Popery to say that Pennance or Penal works do satisfie for our sins in this World and avail to save us in the other Ismael I know many of our Congregation mislike much our Common-Prayer Book for these Popish-Tenets but what do you say of the grand errours of Popery can a man be a true Child of the Reformation and yet believe the Popes Supremacy deny the Kings Supremacy believe Transubstantiation and Communion in one kind are these Tenets
the Doctrin of the Reformation or consistent with its principles Isaac The Kings Supremacy is undoubtedly the Doctrin of the Reformation because it 's judged by the Church of England to be of Scripture yet not only the Quakers Presbyterians Anabaptists and other Congregations judge it 's not of Scripture but as erroneous a Tenet as that of the Popes Supremacy Calvin 6. Amos says They were unadvised people and Blasphemers who raised King Henry the VII so far as to call him the head of the Church but also that no Civil Magistrate can be the head of any particular Church is the Doctrin of the Centuriators cent sept pag. 11. of Cartwright Viretus Kemnitius and many others who doubts then but that in the principles and Doctrin of the Reformation you may deny the Kings Supremacy tho' the Church of England believes it The Popes Supremacy is the Doctrin of Popery who doubts it but it 's also the Doctrin of the Reformation for many of our Eminent Doctors have judged it to be the Doctrine of Scripture as Whitgift who cites Calvin and Musculus for this opinion but it 's needful we relate some of their express words I do not deny says Luther but the Bishop of Rome is has been and ought to be first of all I believe he is above all other Bishops it 's not lawful to deny his Supremacy Melancthon says no less that the Bishop of Rome is above all the Church that it is his office to govern to Judge in controversies to watch over the Priests to keep all Nations in conformity and unity of Doctrin Somaisius The Pope of Rome has been without controversie the first Metropolitan in Italy and not only in Italy nor only in the West but in all the World the other Metropolitans have been chief in their respective districts but the Pope of Rome has been Metropolitan and Primate not only of some particular Diocess but of all Grotius has expresly the same Doctrin and proves this Supremacy belongs to the Pope de Jure Divino I pray consider if these Doctors be not men of sound Judgment and of eminent learning and credit in our Reformation and if our Doctrin be Scripture as such men understand it consider I say with what Justice can this Doctrin be called Popery more than Reformed Doctrin As for Transubstantiation it contains two difficulties first if the Body of Christ be really in the Sacrament and this real presence the Lutherans defend to be the Doctrin of Scripture as well as the Papists why then should it be called Popish more than Reformed Doctrin The second is if the substance of Bread be in the Sacrament together with Christ's Body Lutherans say it is Papists say it is not but that there is a Transubstantiation or change of the whole substance of Bread into the Body of Christ but hear what Luther says of this that we call Popish Doctrin I give all Persons liberty to believe in this point what they please without hazard of their Salvation either that the Bread is in the Sacrament of the Altar or that it is not would Luther have given this liberty if Transubstantiation had not been the Doctrin of the Reformation as well as any other Calvin also and Beza affirm that Luthers Doctrin of the co-existence of Christ's Body and the Bread is more absurd than the Popish Doctrin of the existence of the Body alone if therefore we be true Reformed and safely believe the Doctrin of Luther which is the most absurd much more will we be of the Reformation by believing that of the Papists which is less Communion in one kind is the Doctrin of the Reformation no less than Communion in both for besides that Luther says They Sin not against Christ who use one kind only seeing Christ has not commanded to use both and again though it were an excellent thing to use both kinds in the Sacrament and Christ has commanded nothing in this as necessary yet it were better to follow peace and unity than to contest about the kinds but also Melancthon who in the opinion of Luther surpasses all the Fathers of the Church expresly teaches the same Doctrin and the Church of England Statute I. Edward VI. command That the Sacrament be commonly administr'd in both kinds if necessity does not require otherwise mark he says but commonly and that for some necessity it may be received in one lastly the sufficiency of one kind in the Sacrament is plainly set down by our Reformed Church of France in her Ecclesiastical Discipline printed at Saumur Chap. 12. Art. 7. The Minister must give the Bread in the Supper to them who cannot drink the Cup provided it be not for contempt And the reason is because there are many who cannot endure the taste of Wine wherefore it often happens among them that some persons do take the Bread alone and truly if some of our Ministers in England do not give better Wine than they are accustomed who very irreverently serve that Holy Table with naughty trash it 's much to be feared that our flock will also petition to be dispenc'd with in the Cup because there are some of so delicate Palats that they cannot endure the taste of bad Wine Now you may admire the injustice of the Papists in Condemning our Reformed Doctrin and Doctors as Hereticks whereas those Tenets are believed by many of us as well as by them and the groundless severity of our Congregations in exclaiming against that Doctrin it being the Doctrin of the Reformation whereas so many eminent men of our own judge it to be of Scripture Ismael Whereas I see people persecuted by the Church of England for these Tenets I can hardly be perswaded they are the Doctrin of the Reformation at our next meeting we will persue this discourse the Bell rings for Morning Prayers A Dieu Seventh DIALOGUE ISAAC You come from Church as I guess by the common-Common-Prayer Book I see in your hand I pray let me see the Kalender of it if it be a la mode nouvelle which was made by the Church of England since his Majesties Restauration Ismael Why have you met any thing in it which shocks you Isaac Shock me No Doctrin or practice of any Congregation or man of sound Judgment of our Church can shock me you know I plead for liberty to believe and practise as each one judges by Scripture to be true and good But I observe in your Kalender you have a day consecrated to St. Ann in the Month of July I would gladly know what Ann this is which the Church of England honours so much Ismael It 's Ann the Mother of the Virgin Mary Isaac It 's possible I thought it was Ann Bolein the Mother of our Virgin Elizabeth I am sure the Church of England is more obliged to Her than to the other but as you have put here the Mother of the Virgin
which I rehearsed in all my former discourses are conformable to our Rule of Faith for our Rule is Scripture as each Man of sound Judgment understands it Our Doctrin therefore must be what any Person of sound Judgment understands to be the Doctrin of Scripture This is an evident sequel out of that Principle and whereas there is not one Tenet of all those which I rehearsed whether they concern Doctrin or Manners but was Judged by the Doctors which I cited for it to be the Doctrine of Scripture it follows unavoidably that there is not one Tenet of them but is the Doctrin of the Reformation Therefore you must be forced to either of these two either to say that our Rule of Faith by which such Doctrines are warranted is naught wicked and scandalous and leads to a prostitution of Consciences and Manners or that all those Tenets are good sound pious and no prostitution or corruption of our Consciences For pick and chuse out the Doctrin which you think to be the most wicked and scandalous of all those I rehearsed you cannot deny but that it was taught by the Author I quoted for it and Judged by him to be the Doctrin of Scripture And if no Doctor hitherto had believed it you or I or some other Person of sound Judgment may Judge it to be the Doctrine of Scripture Either of both then you must be constrained to grant Or that the Doctrin of the Reformation is not what each person of sound Judgment understands to be the Doctrin and Sense of Scripture which is as much as to say that our Rule of Faith must not be Scripture as we understand it but that we must believe against our own Judgment and Conscience what others say is the Doctrin and Sense of Scripture Or you must grant that all and each of those Tenets I rehearsed is the Doctrin of the Reformation tho you or this or that Man may Judge them to be blasphemies and scandals Ismael I confess our Rule of Faith in the Reformation is Scripture as each person understands it for all our reformed Churches with the Church of England in her 39 Articles do give us this Rule of Faith. I confess consequently out of this Principle that we must not believe what Doctrin or Sense of Scripture others Judge to be true and Orthodox if we do not our selves Judge it to be such for we must not be forced to believe against our Judgments Lastly I confess we may safely believe whatsoever Doctrins we seriously Judge to be the Doctrin of Scripture but provided that such a Tenet or Doctrin be not plainly against Scripture and be not plain and down-right impiety and blasphemy Isaac And in case you or the Church of England Rome France or Germany Judge a Doctrin to be blasphemous and against Scripture and Luther or Calvin or I or another Judge it is good Doctrin and conformable to Scripture to which Judgment must I stand Must I believe yours against my Conscience and Knowledge Or must not I believe my own Is it not the Principle and Practice of our Reformation that I must believe what I judge in my Conscience to be Scripture and not what others judge if they judge the Contrary When Luther began the Reformation did not almost all Christians and the whole Church believe Purgatory and Prayers to Saints to be the Doctrine of Scripture And did not he very commendably deny it against them all because he judged by Scripture it was not Will a Presbyterian believe Episcopacy because the Church of England says it 's the Doctrine of Scripture No but deny it because himself judges it is not Ismael It 's true each one may Lawfully believe what himself judges to be the Doctrine of Scripture provided he be a Godly well intentioned Man humble and meek in Spirit provided secondly that what he understands to be the Sence and Doctrine of Scripture be not absurd and impious in the Judgment of all the rest of the Faithful For let a Man be ever so learned and Godly if he gives an Interpretation of Scripture which is denied by all the Church he must not be followed Isaac Your first Proviso is very good and I hope you will meet no Doctor of all those I quoted for those Tenets which you call Blasphemies who was not a learned Godly humble and well intentioned Man who will be so bold as to deny it of Luther Calvin Beza Zuinglius c. Your second Proviso is not Just and in it you overthrow the whole Reformation and our Rule of Faith for this being as you granted Scripture as each person of sound Judgment understands it whatever Interpretation or Sense any man of sound Judgment understands to be of Scripture he may safely and piously believe it tho' all the rest of the World should judge it to be impious and blasphemous otherwise our Rule of Faith must not be Scripâ—ure as we understand it but as it is understood by others And whereas no Tenet of all those I rehearsed but was judged to be the Sense and Doctrin of Scripture by some of Those eminent Doctors I quoted it follows they might have safely believed them and if you or I Judge as they did we may also believe as they did and be still of the Reformation Ismael It 's wicked and pernicious to say any particular person may believe his own private Sense and Interpretation of Scripture if it be Judged by all others to be naught and therefore the Church of England prudently and wisely puts a stop and Bridle to the extravagant and rambling imaginations of particular persons they must conform themselves and believe but what the Church Judges may be safely believed Isaac Pray Sir since when is it commendable to constrain Mens Judgments to believe not what each one thinks best but what the Church thinks may be safely believed was this Commendable in the beginning of our Reformation when our Blessed Reformers began to teach their private Judgments against the Church then establish'd If it was then the Church of Rome is to be commended for persecuting and excommunicating our first Reformers and this was not nor is not commendable in the Church of Rome why is it commendable in the Church of England This is a piece of Popery whereof the Church of England is guilty and for which all our Congregations are jealous of her Be it known to you our other Congregations Lutherans Calvinists Anabaptists c. are as truly and Godly Children of the Reformation as the Church of England and they will not submit to that Popish Tyranny nor suffer any curb to their Judgments but will have our Rule of Faith to be but Scripture and each one to understand and believe it as he thinks best in the Lord. Ismael I confess other Congregations will admit no such Curb nor Bridle to their Judgments but follow Scripture as they understand it but the Church of England has a reverent regard for the