questioned till our Separatists rose up who are not comparable to them in parts or holinesse 2 I pray what doe you make of those Ministers who were ordained in the Primitive Churches Cyp. Epis 33 they were ordained in Cyprians time by Bishops and Presbyters and by Hieroms time the Bishops had ingrossed that power into their owne hands as appeares by that speech of his Excepting Ordination Epist ad Evagr. what doth a Bishop that a Presbyter doth not so that by this time it should seeme that the Presbyters were turned out and the Bishops only Ordained It is possible this might be but in some Churches for the fourth councell of Carthage ordered That no Bishop should Ordaine without the councell of his Clergy Can. 22. Can. 3. Now what were these no Ministers Anti-christ was not yet got into his Seat for the yeares of his reigne had been expired before this time It is strange that those should be no true Ministers who lived so neare the Apostles times and under persecution also as in Cyprians time neither was Cyprian surely the first Bishop that did Ordaine for there were Bishops before him yea besides this Ordination by Bishops we finde the Papists contending strongly for strange Rites which they use in Ordination and they say they were also used in those Primitive times for the anointing of the hands of the Presbyter that is ordained this they would prove from Cyprian or at least the Author of The Card. worke of Ch. who shou ld seeme to be as old as Cyprian also from Eusebius Hist Eccles l. 10. c. 4. which place would seeme to favour it and others there are whom they quote See Greg. De Val. to 4. d. 9. q. 5. Also for the shaving of the heads of their Ministers this we finde indeed in August time Ep. 26. Ep. 147. And this Calvin himselfe doth not deny to have been used then and gives the reason why it was used which Greg. de Val. scornes and gives other reasons To. 4. D. 9. q. 5. p. 3. If the Decret Epistles of Anicetus be of any Authority we shal finde it in his days long before Augustin and I wonder that Greg. Val. doth not quote him I am apt to think being they were so prone to Ceremonies in other Ordinances that something was added to this also Iust l. 4. c. 19 Sect 27. and I marvel that in the fourth Councell of Carthage where they set down their rites in Ordinations of other officers and some very ridiculous that the ordination of Presbyters should be the most pure but still with Bishops as well as Presbyters which is the thing now in hand 3 A Bishop if you consider him meerly as a Bishop was but a Minister and set apart to doe the worke of a Minister the same which all other Ministers may doe Bishops did Pray Preach Baptize administer the Lords Supper Ordaine Suspend Excommunicate and these things other Ministers doe and may doe that he did lift up himselfe above other Ministers that was his errour that he would take upon him the sole power of Ordination and Excommunication this was his errour but as the addition of an human invention did not null the Ordinances as suppose only growne persons had been baptized and that by dipping and after dipping they had been signed with the signe of the Crosse would this have nulled the Ordinance in the Anabaptists esteeme no more this usurpation of the power of administring these Ordinances did null a Bishop so as he was no Minister the Ordinances were and are Christs institutions Indeed you may call him an Over-growne Presbyter but a Presbyter 3 Ep. Ioh ver 10. Diotrophes loving of pre-eminence did justly deserve reproofe and John did no doubt deale with him but yet for present did not deny him to be a Minister though a corrupt one for the sole power of Ordination they tell us It is the order of the Church of England as of the Councell of Carthage that when a Presbyter is Ordained all the Presbyters that are present shall lay hands As for the sole power of Excommunication though it was an errour grosse enough yet by the 17. Canon Concil Sardic Ofius who was the cause of that Ganon being made was also at the Councel of Nice it should seeme the Bishops by that time had got that power to excommunicate alone which Canon provides a remedy for a person wrongsully excommunicated by his Bishop to got releefe by Appeales now if that corruption had got in so early long before Anti-christ had got to his Seat no wonder though it was found among our Bishops yet I hope they were true Ministers whom they Ordained As a Bishop was a Lord Bishop his Lordship was but a meere civill addition annexed to the Bishoprick by Regallfavour his Lordship was no ingredient into Ordination 4 The Lawes of this Realme doe account nothing Divine in a Bishop but his being a Presbyter Lond. vind 125. Dr. Seam answ to Diat p. 85. and therefore the Parliament in their Ordinance for Ordination tels us that they did ordaine as Presbyters not as Bishops much lesse as Lord Bishops yea I have heard a reverend Minister now Pastor of a Congregationall Church in Essex say that when the Bishop ordained him he told him I doe ordaine you as I am a Presbyter 5 The Ministers of England are ready to acknowledge those defects and corruptions which did cleave to their entring into the Ministry by the Bishops heare their owne words London Vindica p. 124. We doe not deny but that the way of Ministers entring into the Ministry by the Bishops had many defects in it for which they ought to be humbled but we adde that notwithstanding all the accidentall corruptions yet it is not substantially and essentially corrupted They acknowledge then the errour and desire to be humbled for it what more would you have God will accept of this I doubt not and why not you How to mend Dr. Seamans Divinity I know not where you have also the errour acknowledged implicitely for it is in answer to this Objection then giving his judgement in the case When sinne cleaves to the manner of Calling Answer to Diat p. 85. through the generall errour or corruption of all sorts of people who are concerned in it c. it is nototherwise to be invalidated here below then by doctrinall Censure and Repentance and not by iteration Repentance through Christs Bloud doth take away corruption out of Gods fight and will it not when they are so ingenuous out of your sight 6 There is a maxime taken up among the Independents Many may truly beare the name yea they owne it and practise accordingly yea and others and it goeth for as good Divinity as any the Gospel hath viz. That errours in Non-fundamentals must be borne withall in Churches we must labour indeed to convince people of such but if they will not be so convinced we must not
Separation Examined OR A TREATISE VVherein the grounds for Separation from the Ministry and Churches of England are weighed and found too light The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable but likewise so hurtful to the Churches that Church-Reformation cannot with any comfort go forward so long as such Separation is Tolerated Also an humble request presented to the Congregational Divines that since the differences between them and the Classical-Divines are very small they would please to strike in with the Classical-Divines in carrying on the worke of Reformation before the Inundation of these corrupt Opinions have destroyed both Ordinances and Religion By Gi. Firmin Minister to the Church in Shalford in Essex 1 Cor. 1.10 Now I beseech you brethren by the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that yee all speake the same thing and that there be no Schismes among you Judicabit autem eosqui schismata operantur qui sunt immanes non habentes Dei dilectionem suamque utilitatem potius considerantes quà m unitatem Ecclesiae propter modicas quaslibet causas magnum gloriosum corpus Christi conscindunt dividunt c. Irenae l. 4. c. 62. Cavenda sunt autem fratres dilectissimi non solum quae sunt aperta manifesta sed astutae fraudis subtilitate fallentia c. haeteses invenit schismata quibus subverteret fidem veritatem corrumperet scinderet unitatem Cypr. de unit Eccles LONDON Printed by R. I. for Stephen Bowtell at the Bible in Popes-head-Alley 1652. The Contents THere are true visible Churches in England pag. 1 There is a true Gospel-Ministry in England pag. 4. The grounds of Separation must be either in the Ministry Worship Congregation or Place of meeting p. 12 The Ordination of the Ministers by Bishops can be no ground for Separation p. 22 There can be no ground in the Worship being singing of Psalms is here touched p. 32 There can be no ground in the Congregation though many wicked persons be there Nor in the place of meeting p. 39 The Proposals of the Separatists what they would have are set downe and answers returned as 1 They would have Ministers lay downe their former Call and joyne with them then they it may be will elect them and ordaine them where this question is handled p. 46 Quest Whether election only gives the essentials to a Minister and Ordination be but an Adjunct p. 50 Whether the People have power to Ordaine p. 70 Whether the Fraternity be the first subject of the power of the Keys briefly touched p. 73 2 They will have an explicite Covenant which they call the forme of a Church p. 81 3 No Church-Members but visible Saints p. 82 4 Power in Admissions and Excommunications p. 83 5 Liberty to Prophesie p. 84 6 Liberty of Conscience p. 88 How it appeares that Church-reformation cannot with comfort proceed so long as the Separation is Tolerated p. 91 The Separatists are no such-friends to the Civill Power as is pretended p. 94 The Questions propounded to the Separatists in reference to their Separation p. 97 The agreements and differences with and between the Classicall and Congregationall Divines are reviewed their agreements found to be many their differences very few p. 100 Whence an humble request is presented to the Congregationall Divines speedily to joyne with the Classicall Divines backed with seven reasons p. 108 To the Reverend the Ministers of London the Authors of the Vindication of the Presbyteriall Government and Ministry c. Printed 1650. Fathers and Brethren THe goodnesse of God manifested of old to England in causing the Sun of his Gospel to rise early upon this Nation and to finde such entertainment in the hearts of the Supreame Power that it was the first Nation that ever received the Gospell with the countenance of publick Authority having the first Christian King that ever was is knowne to the whole Christian world his goodnesse in these latter dayes since he tooke from our necks the Anti-christian yoke hath been also wonderfull honouring the Ministers of his Gospel with such Holinesse Learning Ministeriall abilities and successe in their labour in converting many and setting up the power of godlinesse in this Nation that he hath not honoured any Nation more nay without pride it may be spoken his Free Grace hath not honoured any Nation so much in these respects as this English Nation but now in our dayes the Ministry which God hath thus honoured is as much dishonoured and that by such who cannot but acknowledge their owne mouthes have spoken it that what Spirituall good they have received it was wrought by the Ministry and now we finde scorning deriding separating from the Ministry and many not so much as stepping over their thresholds to heare them who were the first instruments of their good if they have any as some we hope have and yet the Ministers are the same they were before yea some repenting that ever they bestowed so much paines and time to follow the Minister as one that lives but foure or five miles from Dedham hath said He repented that he followed that eminent Servant of God Mr. Rogers so much to heare his preaching While I observed these things and considered into what a sad condition we are fallen and read over your Vindication in which I saw a holy meeke and true Christian spirit breathing calling upon the Congregationall men to joyne with you certainly I thought that Booke deserved a courteous Christian answer from the ablest of our Congregationall men what they have done towards it I know not being little acquainted with affaires abroad being locked up in much sadnesse of spirit at home but I thought with my selfe that being I was numbred among the Independents though I am the weakest and most worthy the holy Lord should turne me out of his holy Work laying other things together which I have mentioned in the Epistle to the Reader I resolved to improve the little Talent the Lord had given me in examining the grounds of these practices and to stand up in the defence of such Ministers who I saw were deare to Christ and whom in holinesse learning and abilities the Lord had honoured farre before my selfe And now my Fathers the quarrell is not only with you because you are Presbyteriall Ministers the quarrell is with the whole Ministry for this spirit hath infected even some in New England and I beleeve will cause more troubles there in those Churches then ever the Bishops did though they threatned them much What are the practices of some and what are the feares of the worthy Ministers there I understand by Letters I doe not I dare not censure the Congregationall Churches here some of the Ministers I know to be holy and reverent I wish I had such grace many Members no doubt are really godly but had I not lived in New England and seene the Churches there by what I heare of divers and what I know by some Churches here
then I desire no more if they were so farre Ministers as to administer Baptisme to you then they may well administer Ordination to us renounce therefore the Baptisme you had by them so I am sure you cannot ordaine and when you are regularly re-baptised and can warrant your Act and prove that you have the power to Ordaine then we will listen to you For my owne Ordination it was in the face of my people the day was spent in fasting and Prayer those who carried on the worke were Mr. Dan. Rogers Mr. Marshall Mr. Ranew with other godly Ministers who joyned with them in the imposing of hands the Ministers lived about me I never saw that Ordinance carried on with more solemnity in my life the people shewed their election by suffrage holding up their hands all was done according to the Pattern but yet I am a man as much scorned as other men who were Ordained by Bishops I can submit to God in that scorne that these cast upon me for I deserve it at his hands only there was a foule errour committed at my Ordination and it is told up and downe by some of this kinde against whom I write and I pray what is it This The Ministers imposed hands in my Ordination this hath been talked of as a strange thing but let me answer for the Ministers it was no errour much lesse such a great one as you make it 1 If private men Carpenters and Taylors may impose hands why may not Ministers but the former have done it Ergo. 2 All the Ordinations that ever I saw in New England were performed with imposition of hands I have seene Deacons ordained thus 3 If you be wiser then the Elders in New England Answ to the 32. que p. 67. Survey of Church Dise p. 2. p. 74. and Master Hooker then over-throw them for they conceive it nearest to the institution 4 If you observe the examples in the New Testament which are our Guides in Church affaires we shall finde Ordinations have been thus performed as Acts 6.6 Act. 13.3 1 Tim. 4.14 1 Tim. 5.22 Heb. 6.2 Laying on of hands Which place by Classicall men Congregationall men and Separatists is interpreted of Ordination I doe not here bring in the practise of Churches in former times because I intend not to handle the controversie Whether imposition of hands be necessarily required in ordination but bring you in as many examples from Scripture where there were Ministers Ordained without imposition of hands as also the practise of other true Churches Orthodox and sound who doe Ordaine without c. or else be ashamed of your ignorance and charge not those men with errour where none was but a true following the patterne The substance and essence then of Ordination being this That persons qualified Ministerially be set apart or separated for the worke of the Ministry by persons in Office ordinarily it must be thus what may be done extraordinarily when no Officers can be had is another case the Ministers in England have that Ordinance for the substance and they have the election and consent of the people it is hardly to be supposed that every individuall person in a Parish will consent to every godly Minister but consent there is hence these two concurring to the Call which is the forme of a Minister many Presbyteriall Ministers are true Ministers I dare say more but I am sure now I save my selfe But I have not done with Ordination yet I shall meet with it once againe afterwards Let us now come and try the second ground for separation scil The Worship of God the fault here must be reduced to one of these three heads either 1 Because they cannot enjoy all the Ordinances of God in these Churches Or 2 Because the Ordinances of God are mixed with humane inventions that they cannot partake of them without sinne Or 3 Because here are other Ordinances set up in the Churches then ever Christ did institute I cannot conceive any more For the first Suppose it were so that there were a defect of some Ordinances is that a sufficient ground for separation Mr. Hooker saith no. If a Father of a Family wants a Rod in his house The preface to Survey of Church Discip is it ergo no family there may be some disorder in the house for want of good Government yet a family Divers Divines of great note conceive by that text Nehem. 8.17 18. That the Church of the Jewes did omit the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles almost the space of a thousand yeares the Arke was absent from the Tabernacle from the time of Eli to the time of David 1 Sam. 4.11 compared with 2 Sam. 6 17. and it was a great fault the Scribes rejected the Baptisme of John but where doe you finde any separation all this while that the godly should not joyne with that Church and partake in what Ordinances they had But this objection hath no place in these Churches for Prayer Preaching Administration of the Sacraments yea Discipline they had in the Episcopall dayes they did suspend from the Lords Supper and the Bishops gave the Ministers power but suspension is the lesser Excommunication and now to be sure there are none wanting at least should not be if the Ministers were not hindred in setting up all the Ordinances Obj. No say you the Classicall Churches have no explicite Covenant for the forme of them they will not admit it into their Churches therefore we separate I shal meet with this in another place only for the present disprove what Mr. Hooker hath said and the former examples I have given you but yet you will have a hard peece of work to prove this to be a sufficient ground for your separation as afterwards I hope I shall make good For the second Humane mixtures in Ordinances This indeed was the ground of the old Separatists yet in those dayes many holy and learned Divines wrote against the Separation but in these dayes that stumbling blocke is removed and this let me say that if you read over all the Church-stories since there was a Church upon the earth there cannot be found any example of such separatists as are now amongst us the old Donatists had their Ministers yea Bishops as well as Presbyters the separate Churches of later dayes had their Ministers and how strictly did they maintaine and practise all those Ordinances which ours laugh at as singing of Psalmes Infant-Baptism observation of the Sabbath and such opinions as those learned and godly men Mr. Ainsworth Robinson Johnson did abhorre are swallowed downe among ours so that these men cannot ground their practice from any example heretofore and as for the Scripture if they can finde any grounds there I must confesse I am altogether ignorant in the Scripture Suppose there should be some human mixtures though for my part I know of none are all the Ordinances so polluted preaching and prayer were kept pure in the Episcopall dayes
with this logicall affection of an Adjunct and the other with the affection of a formall cause I should put most upon that where the Scripture is plainest and fullest which I am sure in any mans esteeme that observes those Texts with an impartiall eye is ordination Whether Ordination according to Scripture-light be not as essentiall to a Minister as Election Vind. chu Cath. vis let any one judge I thinke Mr. Hudson speakes Christianly I preferre one Divine Testimony before ten arguments and one good argument before ten humane Testimonies But thus by cloathing these Scriptures with these logicall affections we have cried up election and cryed downe Ordination sectaries take advantage of this and hence come in our disorders Ordination is a Divine institution Ars est in rebus and Logicke is a generall Art so that we must give some logical terms to Election and Ordination I deny not this onely it is good to bring Art to Scripture and not carry Scripture to Art If you aske what logicall Arguments are there betweene a Ministers call and Election and Ordination I said before these two constitute the form of a Minister mutatâ affectione mutatur argumentum Survey par 2. pag. 68. in 4 praec what if I should answer The Call is Totum integrale Election and Ordination are membra constituting this Totum Thus I make Election to be essentiall and so I speake the highest of Election though I must professe upon serious thought I rather question whether Election be essentiall then I doe Ordination Reverend Mr. Hooker indeed saith Ordination is but the approbation of a person constituted in his office but I am apt to thinke Ordination doth most respect that inward or Arcanam vocationem as Zanchy calls it which God gives a man into the Ministry fitting and qualifying of a man first for the worke which none else can do and giving him an earnest desire to the worke God did there as it were separate him inwardly and now he doth it outwardly in Ordination The particular Congregation doth but give him a Call by their election and subjection to him to exercise this power among them pro hic nunc That which moves me to thinke so is First Churches may not choose whom they list as doe our Sectaries but persons qualified by God Secondly the Scripture is so full and cleare for Ordination over it is for Election though I deny not but Election may well bee proved Thirdly because a man may in some cases be ordained to the Ministry when no election of the people doth precede as I shall give instance afterward 2. I argue thus If the election of the people doth give the essentials to an officer then may a man elected execute all officiall power without ordination and that commonly But no man may execute officiall power and that commonly without ordination ergo election doth not give the essentialls by the essentials here he meanes the formall cause for as for the materiall cause they cannot give that and we have but two causes that doe dare essentiam though all foure doe dare esse The consequence is cleare that they may execute c. without ordination for forma dat operari but election gives the forme say these Reverend men and ordination is but an Adjunct effects doe not depend upon Adjuncts for operation the forme gives that The minor that they must not doe so First it is crosse to Scripture presidents if it were but a Deacon Survey part 3. pag. 9. saith Mr. Hooker yet we see he was ordained Secondly It is crosse to your owne practise it is frequent in New England to have a man elected and preach halfe a yeare a whole yeare yea I know one elected and preached two yeares to his people and they maintained him all that while and yet all that time he never administred a Sacrament to his people but he and they when they would partake of the Lords Supper went ten miles to the Church out of which they issued to receive the Sacrament but this was very hard and needlesse if he had the forme given him in election 2. That which doth nextly invest a man with official power so as now he may performe officiall acts and before which he could not doe so that doth give essence and consequently is not a meer adjunct But Ordination doth nextly invest a Minister with official power so as now he may perfome official acts which before he could not doe ergo The minor is clear by the Scripture examples Secondly it is clear by your owne practise for those who for two yeares and more stood onely by election but that while dispensed no Sacraments when they were ordained did presently put forth all official acts The major take all together I suppose will not be denied it doth nextly invest a man with official power so as now he can performe official acts and before he could not doe it to say he had official power before given him by election but could not act it is strange frustra est illa potentia c. had such a person continued twice as long unordained he had not executed any official power nay his preaching all that time was not esteemed preaching by way of office Neither can it be said such preach onely upon triall for I now speake of such as had beene tried before nay have beene preachers in England long before they went over and such I am sure as the people would willingly had them ordained within one month after they had chosen them they were so well satisfied in the persons whom they had chosen Fourthly it is something that solemnity the Scripture expresseth that was in the ordination of Ministers prayer and fasting and imposition of hands we read of no such solemnity in election though people ought to pray before they doe choose So it was in New England this act was very solemne when notice was given of the ordination of an officer to the severall Churches as before any ordination all the Churches adjacent had notice given it ran in that forme There is an Ordination to be this weeke at such a Church c. for the election of the person we knew it long before whom they had chosen and though the people did by their suffrage declare their election in this day of Humiliation yet they declared no more then the Country knew before and I hope you will not say he was not elected before now when first they chose him to goe with them or come to them and there continued a yeare or two preaching they contributing to his maintenance the same I might say in regard of myself I had as ful an election of my people at my first coming as was declared at my ordination and it was above two years before I could get my ordination in the place where I was elected through the troubles of the times but all that while I did not conceive my selfe invested with
official power till I was also ordained The Scripture then expressing such solemnity in this act and not in the other makes me thinke this is not such a slight Adjunct and the other onely essentiall Fifthly I observe two Texts which make me think ordination is not an Adjunct 2 Tim. 2. And the things which thou hast heard of me among many witnesses the same commit thou to faithfull men who should be able to teach others also And that Text 1 Tim. 5.22 Lay hands suddenly upon no man neither be partakers of other mens sins c. Timothy is a Church-officer here is a charge given to him to take heed who comes into the Ministry yea he may be partaker of other mens sinnes if he have not a speciall care whom he admitteth into the Ministry Nam si quem cito ordinaveris qui indignus sit Communicare cum dicit peccatis qui non probatus fuerit ordinatus Hieron in Loc. v. Zanch. in 4 praec p. 784. c. communicabis peccatis alienis dum ille malè docebit aut vivet saith Gerhard in Loc. He quotes also Leo Papa Ep. 87. Ad Africanos Episc Quid est citò manus imponere nisi ante aetatem maturitatis antè tempus examinis ante meritum laboris antè experientiam Disciplinae sacerdotalem honorem tribuere non probatis Calvin also on the last words Keep thy selfe pure Ac si dixisset si quid perperam fiat ab aliis vide ne ulla ex consensu vel approbatione contagio ad te perveniat He referres it to Timothy joyning with others in ordaining unworthy persons now these texts doe not belong to the people but Ministers Officers as was Timothy which makes me thinke that what the Ministers doe in examining trying ordaining is more then the peoples election where doe we finde such things spoken to the people Where the greatest blame lyes for unworthy men coming into the Ministry surely there must lye the greatest power of admitting men into the Ministry else the blame is not just but we see the blame is here layed upon the Ministers ☞ Paul no where writes to the people to commit the things they have heard c. nor doth he bid them not lay on hands suddenly c. he bad them indeed looke out men for Deacons but that doth not answer these texts but if the great stroke the formall cause lye in the popular election the Ministers may well say We doe but ordaine we give but an Adjunct the people did the maine Act they gave the essence the essence being given we must give the Adjunct so that there will be no blame left for the Ministers 6 It should seeme by a passage of Doct. Bellar. Ener To. 2 l 3. c. 2. S. 12. Ames that ordination is more then an Adjunct Bellarmine had said Vocatio seu missio ministrorum non ad populum pertinet sed ad Episcopos c. Doct. Ames in his second answer hath these words Absurdè ad modum distinguitur vocatio ministri ab ejus Ordinatione electione tanquam pars distincta neque in Scripturis neque in antiquis Patribus alia vocatio ordinaria memoratur quam illa quae exurgit quasi Totum ex electione ordinatione what Totum the Doctor meanes is plaine by his words Exurgit ex ordinatione electione he meanes Totum integrale so then ordination and election are members of this Integrum but all the members doe give essence to the Integrum for Membra sunt symbola causarum essentialium If so then ordination cannot be an Adjunct in respect of a Ministeriall Call for no Adjunct gives essence but followes the essence supposing the subject compleat in its essence before if then ordination doth give essence as well as election this notion may hold else we should have an Integrum consisting but of two parts and but one part give the essence which cannot be This notion of a Ministers Call to consist as a Totum ex electione ordinatione is much nearer the Rule then to have election alone to give the essence and ordination to be but an Adjunct To this agrees Mr. Jacob a man well known There are two essentiall parts of calling to the Ministry Election Ordination Dr. Seaman quotes him Ans to Diat p. 64 so the Calling is a Totum As for the Objections made against this if ordination be essentiall what then shall become of our Ministers whose ordination is not legitimate This I have spoken to before and so what will you doe in case a Church were so cast by providence that they could get no Officers to Ordaine them an Officer for those who are of this opinion deny the People power to ordaine it is easily yeelded by our Divines that may be done in an extraordinary case which ordinarily ought not to be done See Rutherford Due right of Presbytery p. 187. Gillespie Miscel p. 34. c. for my part I conceive then the Church fasting and praying for such a one who is elected may doe that which is aequivalent to ordination though it be not ordination formalitèr The strong argument where-with reverend Master Hooker proves That Election gives the Essentials to an Officer is this One Relate gives the essentiall constituting causes to another But Pastor and People are Relates ergo The answer which Mr. Rutherford gives to it viz. That ordination made him a Minister before and election doth but appropriate him This Mr. Hooker denyeth to be any answer because it supposeth ordination to antecede election which is quite crosse to the Scripture pattern Act. 6.3.6 But with favour I should humbly propound this question This is not a bare supposition for one of the young Schollars doth now preach to the Indians in their language Whether Ordination may in no case precede election As now in this case Suppose one of the Schollars in the Colledge or suppose foure or more had learned the Indian Language and upon examination they were found to be Ministerially qualified suppose now the Presbytery should solemnly set apart these young men to the worke of the Ministry and send them forth to preach among the Indians though the Indians have not elected them here indeed would the essentials of an Officer be given without election I pray what breach of rule would here be If it be said that the examples mentioned Act. 6. Act. 14. shew their election goes first It is true indeed where there are Churches but here are none Besides Act. 13.3 when Paul and Barnabas were sent out to preach among the Gentiles they were ordained Though some deny ordination here to be meant yet many learned men affirme it when no election did precede it is true they were extraordinary Officers but what then though this doth not make those young men extraordinary Officers as were the Apostles to have power in all Churches yet I see not any breach of rule in separating them to this work If it
that though there be Officers in a Church yet the people may ordaine which I am sure those Divines who are for the peoples power in ordination will never admit being crosse to their owne Principles and Scripture 4 We finde in the eleventh verse that after that was done Aaron did wave these Levites before the Lord so that they were not compleat till Aaron had done his Act whence I remember learned Master Cotton in his discourse with me said the peoples 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there did but answer to the peoples 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the New Testament and Aarons waving of them did answer to our 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this clause only I remember but he had a larger answer which I tooke from him in discourse by which I remember he did enervate this Objection but I lost his notes with all my other helps in my shipwrack These men call for precept and example give you us one for this in the New Testament for you put us to that also we must give you them out of the New Testament yea Iwould goe further and desire them to give me one examplein the first six hundred yeares after Christ that ever the people did ordaine their Minister now this is strange to me that we can finde no foot-step of any such thing in the Scripture nor in the Ages next and yet that we should make it so frequent that they must ordaine most frequently for if every particular Church be Independent as now such a Church where I am in a small Village where the maintenance will not keep one Minister and therefore to be sure we cannot have more Ministers then if the Minister remove or dye if there come a new Minister the people must ever ordaine thus it must be in most places in England few will be excepted Iustin Mart. Apol 2 and if every new election must have a new ordination then it must alwayes be in the peoples power In the Primitive times there were Churches in Cities and Villages but that the Christians in Villages did ordaine their Officers I would gladly see that proved Ordination in those times was carried by a continued succession the Apostles ordained some Ministers those ordained others so downwards but never by the people Learned Dr. â—ell ener to 2. l. 3. c. 2. s 6 Ames seemes to answer this for whereas Bellarmine had said In novo Testamento ubicunque mentio fit manunm impositionis semper ea Apostolis caeterisque Episcapis nunquà m vero plebi tribuitur The Doctor answers to this In Historiâ novi Testamenti exempla babemus constitutionis Ministerii ejusdem etiam conservationis sed non restaurationis ejus aut reformationis post generalem Apostasiam omnia igitur quae pertinent ad plebem fidelem in tali casu non representantur ibi certis exemplis However these words seeme to carry it as if the Doctor did hold that the people had this power in a generall Apostasie yet I question whether the Doctor would looke upon the Churches of England now under such a notion neither would he deny the ordination of our Ministers to be valid for substance but yet here one might cast in something in times of Reformation it may be he saith 1 To Reforme the Minister is to Forme it now as it was first formed But the Ministry was not at first formed by the people ergo the Ministry cannot be now reformed by the people I thinke the Major will not be denyed for the Minor let any prove that According to this some will say We must have Apostles they formed the Ministers first we speake of ordination I say Non sequitur unlesse you can prove the Apostles ordained only quâ Apostles if so I know not how those Ministers whom the Apostles did ordaine could ordaine others but to be sure they did 2 I defire a text of Scripture that holds out this that the people may ordaine in a generall Apostasie 3 I doubt we shall rarely finde such times when there is a Society of godly Christians to ordaine but there is some Ministers also ordinarily there are Ministers who teach this people 4 It will be a question Whether the Apostasie hath been such as to require this for if Baptisme was not repeated but was thought valid though administred by a Romish Minister because he was set apart to the worke and kept the essence of the ordinance why might not the ordination administred by those Ministers hold as well 2 A second ground that makes me doubt is this it seemes strange to me that Christ should appoint extraordinary officers and make that a part of their work which the people themselves may doe Paul leaves Titus to ordaine but what needs that the people might well say what need Paul leave Titus to do that which we can doe our selves Frustra fit per plura c. the Apostles never needed but to preach and convert the people to the faith when they had done so they should have said we have now done our worke brought you to be beleevers you may now elect an Officer and ordaine him your selves the power is yours onely here would have been some trouble about baptizing since then I finde that this was part of thier Office then I cannot beleeve this is the peoples worke Paul might easily have left us a president in some Society of Christians that would have quieted all our disputes More might be said and is said by others but I see our New England Divines do almost yeeld it by giving power to some Ministers to ordaine in other Congregations Since nothing can be drawn from Scripture by precept or example to prove this hence some would draw it out by Argument Those who can do the greater may doe the lesse The people can doe the greater viz. elect Ergo The minor is as freely denyed as it is affirmed election is not the greater Scripture-light being judge That was the designe I doubt of making Ordination but an Adjunct for so indeed it would easily bee granted if election gives the essence and this only be an adjunct the people may well ordaine Yea and in a Church where there are Officers to Ordaine I know not why they who give the essence may not give the adjunct why should an adjunct be proper to the Officers only in that Church when the essence doth not belong to them Mr. N. W. Omnis quaestio non per aliud quod quaeritur babebit resolutionem nec ambiguitas per ambiguitatem sed ex elaris manifestis c. Irenae l. 2. c. 10. further then as members they joyne with the people for so it seemes the Officers elect as members and if you doe elect only as members why should you not also ordaine as members for election is the greater this the lesse The other Argument is the people are the first subject of the power of the keyes Ergo But this is not easily yeelded it was a
must not goe to them but similia ad pompam non ad pugnam The Analogie betweene a Commonwealth and the Church will not hold as I may touch afterward but this I am sure according to that practise that seven make a Church they may admit five or six whole Churches and a Pastor chosen by none of them may administer the Sacrament to them all at one time but doe we finde whole Corporations goe to the Mayor of another Corporation for Justice Mr. Philips Pastor of the Church in Water-town while Mr. Wilson Pastor of the Church of Boston was here in England went to Boston and administred the Lords Supper to that Church I was not then in the Country but I heard of it soone after when I went over with Mr. Wilson I know no sin in that act I thought to have given some Instances how frequent this was in the Primitive Churches Vind. Cath. Ã 192 ad 196 for one Minister to act officially beyond the people who elected him But Mr. Hudson a man far more able hath set down those examples which I would have given and many more to whom I referre the Reader Yea it was ordinary for the members of one Church to dwell one or two yeares nay six or seven yeares in another Towne and to partake of the Sacraments there as frequently as any of the members of that Church Indeed of late the Elders have not liked this to have them live so remote from the inspection of their owne officers and therefore have required such to joyne with the Church where they dwell this is good and orderly The letters also of Recommendation which the Churches make for the members when they come over hither requiring of the Churches here what communion counsell or comfort they shall need promising the performance of the like debt to others c. 2. Also I saw if a man were excommunicated out of one Church he stood excommunicated out of them all but if a man be disfranchised in one Corporation another Corporation may receive him and give him his freedome if they please this shews there is something more in a Church then in a Commonwealth 3. I saw they preached frequently in other Churches but that it should be onely as gifted brethren this is so harsh to conceive I pray what act doth the mayor of one Corporation do in another Corporation like this that carries authority in it and that here we must distinguish of the Mayor if he did this at home he did it as a Mayor authoritatively but in this Corporation he doth it as a private man Further they are Ministers or Pastors onely to those who elect and the fraternity only elect where there is no officer but there are divers in the severall Townes who are not joyned to the Churches so they did not elect then it seemes they preach as pastors onely to those who elected but to the rest of the Towne as gifted men consequently when God blesses their labours to the conversion of any of those they convert them instrumentally not as Ministers of Christ ordained separated to that worke but onely as gifted men yea they never convert any as Ministers unlesse some of those who elected them be close hypocrites and so they convert them but ordinarily those who choose are reputed godly already and they are Ministers only to them Hence rises that vile notion that some here have taken up That Pastors should preach onely to the edification of the Saints not to others 4. I have heard since I came away that when people have chosen an Officer and had no Officers to ordaine him that the Ministers of other Congregations have done it and the Confession of Church-discipline by the Synod of New England as also Mr. Hooker Survey part 2. pag. 59. allow as much 5. If one Congregation should prove pertinaciously scandalous and hereticall then though they doe not formally excommunicate such a Congregation yet all the Churches in the Country would proceed to the Non-communion of such a Church and for all the Churches to expresse so much to such a Church We do all renounce communion with you c. this amounts to a censure and is equivalent to excommunication containing in it all the effects that appear in excommunication and so I should reckon my selfe as much excommunicated Mr. Burroughs saith They may by a solemne act in the name of Christ Iren. 43. refuse any communion with them till they repent They may declare in the name of Christ that these erring Churches are not to be received into fellowship with any Churches of Christ nor to have communion one with another in the Ordinances of Christ all this solemnly in Christs name Onely some may be will say if this be an Ordinance of Christ bring out the texts to prove this and then we shall see if those texts wil not beare it out that the Churches united thus in this censure have not some authority over that particular Church If you goe to the old politie the Synedrion had power over particular Congregations if to light of nature that will carry it so that we must have texts to decide this Question For my part I must leave this to better heads Laying all together the Churches seeme to pactise as if there were such a Church Some things there are which a little trouble me in this notion that make me not come off so roundly in receiving it I question not the Church-catholicke-visible but I meane that it is one organicall body but as he said Veritas est temporis filia so I beleeve Time will cleave out this but so much I see as commands me to lean to that side I was thinking how dangerous this might prove If the major part of the Catholick-visible-church should decline grow superstitious c. other Churches yet remaining pure if they did not subject to the major part what then but I saw inconveniences also on the other side if a Congregation be so entire that they can elect ordaine and are exempted from all power then Arians Photinians and all manner of Hereticks may elect ordaine c. who shall deny them and besides suppose the major part of Congregationall Churches should decline they would proceed to Non-communion of other particular Churches more pure and this is in a manner all one Further If so then if a Minister be removed from one Congregation to another or if his people should dye he now is but a private person and may nor baptise c. Hence also he must have another ordination when elected and as oft as he is elected I have not heard any there but here alleadge it I confesse I am not cleare in the practise I have searched to finde what Scripturall grounds there were for it but I find none that these Reverend Elders expresse some have alleadged in conference that Act. 13.3 Paul and Barnabas were ordained before and now they are ordained againe but I finde Mr.
Hooker saying To. 4. l. 4. c. 24. s 25. here was no ordination to office at all Survey part 2. pag. 83. then I perceive this will not warrant it I finde learned Chamier also of that opinion he saith So our English Annotations and Calv. in Loc. there was not properly any ordination into a new Ecclesiasticall office but confirmatio missionis ad Gentes ad quas nondum erant ex professò missi The Author of the Diatribe saith they were Ministers before Act. 12. ult but I doubt that place will not prove it for their fulfilling of their Ministry or Charge there may refer to C. 11.29 30. the carrying of the relief to the Saints at Jerusalem which they might do though no Apostles Here then we are in the dark what to judge of the text if we rest onely upon mens opinions there are many who are for the contrary opinion that here was ordination as I have named before and I thinke those whom Chamier quotes in the twentieth Section of the former Chapter conceive so saith he Act. 13. Imponuntur manus Paulo Barnabae mittendis ad Evangelii praedicationem in Gentes quid hoc est Chrysostomus Theophylactus Oecumenius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad Apostolatum Me thinkes when I see here are the same acts done which are done at another Ordination and there was no Ordination before nor after where any more acts were done why this should not be understood for Ordination I know not A man to be separated to the work whereunto God called him the worke of the Ministry therefore to have prayer fasting and imposition of hands this was done at other Ordinations when others were separated though not to be Apostles as these were I dare not say that these were not Apostles before now because I see so many Divines are of that opinion for Barnabas we finde him made mention of Act. 4.36 a Levite and a man of excellent gifts no doubt as it appeares in Chap. 11. but to say he was an Apostle before I doe not see it made so cleare Act. 13.1 There were Prophets and Teachers as Barnabas so that Barnabas was one of them but as yet not an Apostle for we know these are distinguished Apostles Prophets c. though I dare not gain-say it but impute it rather to my ignorance for Paul there seemeth to bee more said for him Act. 9 for those that say Ananias his imposition of hands upon Paul was to separate him to the worke of his Apostleship for that was one end of Imposition of hands I dare not oppose Divines in this Pareus upon Gal. 1.1 when Paul saith he was an Apostle not by man thinks he points to this Act. 9. but so he was not though here he were first called to that office for his call was immediate as Chamier notes To. 4. l. 4. c. 24 the 12. vers saith He saw one in a vision putting his hands upon him that he might receive his sight and Ananias saith vers 17. The Lord hath sent me that thou mightest receive thy sight and be filled with the Holy Ghost Now if that necessarily implyes that ergo now he was ordained to his Apostleship I will not oppose though it is possible that might be though he were not yet an Apostle and this is somewhat different from others that first Ananias alone secondly in a private house the question is who were with Paul in the house 3. before he was baptised should be ordained thus to be an Apostle though I cannot oppose much for if Christ will have it it is orderly enough but if they were men extraordinarily qualified and not set apart to the office of their Apostleship then this place of Act. 13.3 may be interpreted of their ordination to the office of their Apostleship But suppose they were Apostles yet wil this text be sufficient proofe to maintaine that Ministers must bee newly ordained if they remove from one particular Congregation to another I am sure there may bee sufficient grounds given why they may remove if indeed the case were now as then it was with the Gentiles Act. 11.19 The scattered Disciples preached to the Jews onely but the G entiles had none sent among them before in this manner as those were sent though Peter had beene with Cornelius to be Apostles of the Gentiles we might allow a second Ordination In Antiquity we do not finde a second Ordination made mention of something we finde to the contrary as in that Tract of Cyprian which though it may be proved not to be Cyprians owne yet no doubt the Authour may be as ancient as Cyprian written in his time as Pamelius observes neither doth Goulartius oppose him in it De Ablutione pedum Nemo sacros ordines semel datos iterum renovat c. In the 67. Can. Apost thus Si quis Episcopus aut Presbyter aut Diaconus secundam ab aliquo ordinationem susceperit deponiter tà m ipse quam qui ipsum ordinavit nisi forte constet ordinationem eum babere ab haereticis c. Augustine speaking of Baptisme and Ordination saith Contra permian l. 2. c. 13. Vtrumque enim Sacramentum est quadam consecratione utrumque homini datur illud cum baptizatur istud cum ordinatur ideoque in Catholicâ utrumque non licet iterari To the same purpose he speakes in his booke de bono conjugali contra Jovin c. 24. From which places I gather it was not their manner to iterate Ordination indeed Scripture and strong Argument is more then humane Testimony but that is not sufficient to say Ordination is but the approbation of a person constituted in his office unlesse it could be proved that Ordination is no more which will easily be denyed For our Moderne Divines I do not know any that maintaine this iteration of Ordination in case a man remove from the place where he was first ordained The second Argument which Reverend Mr. Hooker useth to prove that Election gives the essentials c. is this It is lawfull for the people to reject a Pastor upon just causes and put him out of his office ergo it is in their power to Call him outwardly and put him into his office By this Rejection he means Excommunication for so he saith afterward This rejection cuts him off from being a member c. So consequently it must needs make him cease from being an officer For that phrase of putting him into his office if it be taken secundum quid and as to their officer it hath not beene opposed but if taken absolutely that their election makes him a Minister as Mr. Hooker doth that is it which is denied As for the Antecedent whether people have power to reject or if you meane Excommunication as it seemes that is meant that is another question If there be officers and the people consent with them to cast out an officer pertinaciously scandalous and hereticall none doubt of that but for
the people being but a homogeneall body to reject i.e. excommunicate an ossicer will cost more to prove had Reverend Mr. Hooker beene alive and saw what work Church-members make here in England in very many Churches I thinke it would have caused him to bethinke himselfe againe of the peoples power Something we heare of is done in a Church not farre from the place where he lived it cannot be kept close the light of that fire shines into England For the people to withdraw their subjection from such an officer when there are no other officers to joyne with them to excommunicate him this is not denied for by their subjection to him they made him their officer that was some part so they may withdraw their subjection againe But for Excommunication Mr. Cotton saith It is one of the highest acts of rule in the Church Keys p. 16 and therefore cannot be performed but by some Rulers Mr. Burroughs saith Iren. 51. If the Church be without officers they cannot doe that which belongs to officers to doe they have no Sacraments amongst them neither can they have any spirituall jurisdiction exercised amongst them onely brotherly admonition and withdrawing from such as walke disorderly for their owne preservation So then here is a way for the people to preserve themselves though they cannot excommunicate and those Texts which Reverend Mr. Hooker brings Matth. 7.15 and Phil. 3.2 doe not prove the Church as a homogencal body to have power to excommunicate their officers though they may prove withdrawing as also Rom. 16.17 may prove it For the reason of his consequence that staple rule ejusdem est Instituere destituere this maxime is turned every way sometimes to prove the people may excommunicate their officers because they doe Instituere The people in Election put forth no act of jurisdiction therefore they may put forth the highest act of jurisdiction in excommunication that there is no act of jurisdiction in election Doctor Ames acknowledgeth Ovas rationales possunt eligere sibi Pastorem sicut sponsa eligit sibisponsum non per jurisdictionem aut Gubernationem sed potius per subjectionem In the answer before he affirmes the same and else-where now what arguing is this Bellar. ener to 2 l. 3. c. 2. S. 19. Ib. S. 13. to argue from subjection to the highest Act of Jurisdiction there was no Authority in election for electio non cogit yet there is more power seene in Civill elections then Church-elections as I shall touch afterward but in Excommunication Authority appeares That also is denied that the people doe instituere in constituted Chruches and ordinarily what may be done in an extraordinary case is no ordinary rule Here the maxime is turned to prove that they may Jnstituere because they can destituere but that will be denyed unlesse it be in the sence before mentioned i. e. in what manner and how farre they did instituere i.e. by a subjection to be their Officer so they may with-draw their subjection from him and not owne him to be their Officer but to Excommunicate is more Quest But suppose this be granted that the Fraternity cannot excommunicate their Officer but with-draw their subjection they may you say and so he ceases to be their Officer but what is he now an Officer to other Churches A. If the with-drawing their subjection and rejecting be irregular then though they make him not their Officer de facto which he is still de jure yet his relation to the Church-Catholick visible doth still hold and another Church giving him a Call he hath then power actu secundâ— to administer the Ordinances there For instance the separatists cast off him whom before they chose for their Officer supposing now unlesse he will renounce his ordination he is no Minister doth he therefore cease to be a Minister how bufie some Congregationall Churches are in with-drawing from their Officers it is too manifest and many goe to the Anabaptists some turne Seekers and-if all the Members doe thus doe they now cease to be Ministers 2 But if the with-drawing be regular the cause just tried c. then that which is sufficient ground for their with-drawing from him is just cause why he should be excommunicated being pertinaciously scandalous or Hereticall as Mr. Hooker supposeth If then the case of a Church be so as they are cast by providence into some remote place where are no Churches besides to combine with then as their election of him c. as I said before may supply the want of ordination so this with-drawing in such an extraordinary case may be Analogum to excommunication but say our Divines if that Church be in combination with other Churches as now under a Classis then the people shall not need to stay there in their with-drawing but the case being judged and tryed by the Classis they as they ordained him when the people elected him the people consenting doe excommunicate him then as a man cast out of one Church is cast out from the Catholick Church visible so he who is cast out from being an Officer to this Church is cast out from being a Minister to the Church-Catholicke visible For the other Argument Burro Iren p. 50 Nort. resp ad Apoll. p. 76 78 the people conveying of power to an Officer I know of no power the people conveyes only a designation of such a person to officiate in this or that Society but their power they receive from Christ immediatly as our Congregationall men affirme and hence they act in his Name not in the name of the Church 5 The last answer I would give to this Proposall is this if you conceive this to be the only way of Reformation then you must give the Ministers strong proofe that you may ordaine the Ministers will as much question your power to ordaine as you question the Bishops power so that we take it for granted you are able to prove this because you are so punctuall you say for reforming by the word But of this practise I much doubt 1 My ground is because I finde not one Iota of any such thing in the New Testament Obj. Though you doe not in the New Testament yet in the Old Testament there is Numb 8.10 A. That place is the only resuge but 1 It is commonly answered That it is no faire arguing to goe to the Old Testament for one thing we would have and when another comes to the same Politie for an argument for their turne now to debarre them and tell them this is the old Politie either leave out the Jewish Politie altogether or else give others leave to fetch Arguments from thence as well as your selves 2 If you will goe to that Politie why may I not as well prove That the Civill Magistrate may ordaine as well as Moses did Aaron Levit. 8. 3 But in that Church at that time there were Officers Aaron and his sonnes thence if that be a rule it must follow
proceedeth whether the people obey or not it was therefore their revenge by way of censure in Discipline which they had in readines when the obedience of the Church is fulfilled in discerning and approving the equity of the Censure which the Apostle or Elders have declared to them from the word That phrase discerning and approving of the equity needs a little more clearing but I leave them However this Reverend Divine seems to refer that obedience unto the wil of Christ by the words going before his exposition yet that hinders not but it may in some sence be applyed to their officers who also obey Christ for that phrase is not strange to have people obey their officers Heb. 13.17 O bey your Rulers there may be some thing in it not only obey your Teachers but Rulers when they rule as when they preach Mr. Norton expressing Resp ad Apol. p. 67. as I conceive how the brethren act with the Eldership for so I remember it was in his Tables which I had had some thoughts to have Printed them but in that great fire when Colchester was besiedged having lent them to a friend they were burnt as I heare Partes judicii in rebus jurisdictionis quales sunt fratrum examinatio dijudicatio sententiatio Causae per modum obedientiae Presbyterio debitae 2 Cor. 10.16 cap. 2.9 Mr. Gillespie also besides his own opinion giveth reasons Aar rod p. 289 c. and alledgeth divers Divines who interpret this place of Church censures these words when your obedience is fulfilled gives him one ground for his interpretation for as Estius and Novarinus explain the Apostles reason it is in vain to excommunicate all such as are worthy of excommunication when there is a generall renitency in the Church but still we observe the people act obedientially to their officers that they did not at that time was their fault Besides if excommunication be the highest act of Rule and therefore cannot be performed where Rulers are not as saith Mr. Cotton and if a homogeneall body can expresse no spirituall Jurisdiction but onely withdraw as saith Master Burroughs then the people having Rulers are not now made Rulers nor have the power of jurisdiction there is indeed jurisdiction exercised among them by reason of their Rulers to whom they consent and obey Government is proper to the Presbytery saith acute Mr. Norton Resp ad Apol. p 65 67 and shewes under seven particulars how the Presbyters governe in Church affairs and so in this exercise of Discipline if so then the people are governed in this act how then doth a people governed act in reference to Rulers governing but by way of obedience So that to mee there appeares a vaste difference betweene the power of Discipline as it is in the hands of the Presbytery and as in the hands of the people though the Ministers cannot excommunicate without the people I speake a few words to this point here because I would spare the labour in another place As for the Analogy drawne from the civill power the people are the first subject of civill power Ergo the Fraternity is the first subject of Church power For the Antecedent I leave that but the consequence I should deny there is a great disproportion First The People are not the effect of their Magistrates or follow after them as the people of Israel were not of Saul but the Fraternity quâ sic is the effect of the Ministry The Apostles converted and after them the Ministers converted Converting is but to make the people such for whom the power of the keyes is given Secondly There is some thing in this In Corporations if the people have elected a man to be an Alderman or Mayor if he refuse it there is a Fine set upon him some have been fined 20 li. some more according as the Corporations are but if the body of the people will choose an Officer and he will refuse it what then I know no kind of Church act that reaches him this shewes there is something more in civill then Church power Thirdly The people do give to their Magistrates a power to make Lawes c. for their good but the Church gives no power into the hands of her Ministers but they have all their power immediately from Christ Fourthly Hence the people may limit their people or inlarge it But the people cannot limit nor inlarge the power the Ministers have Fiftly We see the Magistrates Act in the name of the people in the name of the Commonwealth of England but Ministers doe not act in the name of the Church but Christ as saith Mr. Burroughs and Mr. Norton before quoted More might be produced but I content my selfe with these and though that maxime be received Salus populi Suprema lex yet it hinders not but the people may save themselves though they be not the first subject of the keyes Mr. Richardson whom Dr. Ames and Mr. Manuscr Tables Hooker honoured much and follow much placeth the power of binding and loosing in the Governours not in the people This discourse I have runne into by answering to the first Proposall which being the maine I have bestowed more lines about it the rest I shall run over quickly Come we now to the second The second Proposall may be this The second Proposall No Congregational Divine dares put the forme of a Church in the explicitenesse of the Covenant but these doe Survey pare first p. 47 48. Wee would have an explicite Covenant in every particular Church this we judge to be the forme of a Church and we cannot joyne with a Church without it A. Many people have taken up this by the end a Covenant is the forme of a Church understanding it of an explicite Covenant but they know not what a Forme is if they did they would be more wary then they are But let us heare what Congregationall men say from whom you take up this word 1 Mr. Hooker saith an implicite Covenant preserves the true nature of the true Church c. and an implicite Covenant is when in their practise they doe that whereby they make themselves ingaged to walke in such a society according to such rules of government which are exercised amongst them and so submit themselves thereunto but doe not make any verball profession thereof Thus the people in the Parishes in England when there is a Minister put upon them by the Patron or Bishop they constantly hold them to the fellowship of the people in such a place attend all the Ordinances there used and the Dispensations of the Minister so imposed upon them c. by such actions they declare that by their practises which others hold forth by publick profession thus farre Mr. Hooker so Mr. Norton Resp ad Apollon p. 22.28 so the Confession of Church Disc by the Synod of New England 2 You have a Nationall Covenant a solemne one I thinke it is strong enough if you
proceed any further to cast them out I have heard the New England Ministers sharply censured because they have excommunicated for some errours i.e. denying of some Ordinances which are supposed to fall within the compasse of Non-fundamentals This maxime is cryed up among the Separatists For the Thesis it selfe considering into what a narrow compasse Fundamentals are pent up I thinke it to be Apocryphall Divinity and just it is with God to let in errours in Fundamentals when such Church and Truthdestructive Principles are drunke in by godly Christians yet let us bring this rule and lay it to the case in hand I hope they doe not make rules for themselves if it be a true Christian Rule it is for all Christians Here then we have men qualified by God with Ministeriall and abundance of them personal gifts they have the election or consent of the people they are separated to the worke of the Ministry by persons who were Ministers but did erroneously assume too much to themselves now grant that here is an errour yet I hope it is not in a fundamentall point Some great Divines call Ordination but an Adjunct and your selves lesse you thinke it a Toy so then if you must not be separated from a Church for errours in Non-fundamentals then neither ought you to separate from a true Church for an errour which is not fundamentall Certainly if that rule hath place any where then here you will by this rule keepe Anabaptists Anti-Sabbatarians Antinomians truly such Anti-Psalmists Arminians c. within your Churches and not cast them out but forsooth a little errour in comparison of them and that acknowledged in the Ministers that is ground sufficient to cast off them and call them Antichristians c. yet there are no conscientious men but these the Separatists Gospel will afford Rules for them but not for other Christians As you trouble the Ministers here so I doubt they will trouble you in the Ordinations of your Ministers that is to make it cleare to them that private men have power to Ordaine I have seene it my selfe when two private men have imposed their hands upon him who was to be their Pastor Another I know whom a Carpenter and a Taylor Ordained with imposition of hands I doubt the Ministers will put you hard to it to prove that this is according to the Rule yea when other Ministers but of other Churches were present these have imposed hands If we consult with the Gospel we shall finde it rather to favour a Bishop though no Lordly one by the example of Timothy and Titus from whom our Bishops proved their Superiority and sole power of Ordination to Ordaine then private men and that in the presence of divers other Ministers I am sure this will be hard to prove from Scripture I shall speake a few words to this point afterward Suppose any of the Bishops had been of that opinion that none but persons growne and making confession of their Faith ought to be Baptized and they would Baptize only by dipping would not the Anabaptists have judged this to be true Baptisme would they null this Baptisme because he was a Bishop since he was a Minister set apart to that worke c. as Austin baptized many thus after he had been in England a while who yet was an Arch-Bishop was that no true Baptisme I doe not thinke that the Anabaptists if they have any braines in their heads will deny that Baptisme were nul if that were good so is Ordination for the substance of it If there have been no true Ministers nor Ordinances nor Churches but where there hath been no humane mixtures nor wicked persons then there hath been but few Ministers Ordinances or Churches since there was a Church upon earth and if there ought to be separation from such Ministers and Churches then we should have found Separatists enough how hardly was Superstition kept out in the Church of the Jewes before the Captivity say how many yeares Alsle Chron. p. 2153. Goodw. Mo. Ar. l. 1. c. 10. Chemnitius in 10. Ioh. takes theeves there to be the Pharisees for their order was not instituted by God nor brought in by the Prophets but only a humane invention and through their owne boldnesse Afterward when Christ came were they cleare what thinke you then of corrupt Caiphas the High Priest his corrupt entring into and his continuance in the place for one yeare So the Pharisees a Generation that God never instituted their Schoole began some say two hundred and forty yeares some say more before Christ and for their Superstitious inventions they were not barren in them but did Christ so soon as he came to Preach call away the people and bid them separate here are corrupt Officers c. No we finde no such word nay he bids then heare Matth. 23. After Christ I pray tell me how long did the Churches continue without Superstitious mixtures I doubt you will finde the Church hath not been long free but we doe not finde separation presently and nulling of Ministers as now Men should doe well to give us a precept or example out of the Word where Ordinances have been dispensed true for the substance though some humane mixtures have been joyned to them that therefore they were iterated If they cannot give us a direct precept or example shew us it by a necessary consequence from Scripture I wonder men should be so forward to iterate Baptisme and Ordination as these Separatists call for without Scripturall grounds 9 There are hundreds of Ministers in England who were not Ordained by Bishops but you separate from those also they had the election of the people first then with fasting and prayer solemnly set apart to the worke by divers godly and learned Divines who were against Bishops yet these are also scorned by your selves as much as the others but forsooth because they were Ordained by Bishops and had not renounced their Ordination and taken their Ordination from you therefore that infection spreads even to all Generations Out of what I have said I may pick up some answers to this but for troubling the Reader and the truth is they are in some sence unreasonable men I deale with but this let me say it is strange that when an Ordinance is purged in it selfe and those who administer it renounce what defects have cleaved to their owne Ordination only for the substance owning it as another Ordinance may be corrupted or rather have corruptions annexed to it but not nulled by those accidentall corruptions that this infection should adhere so strongly that it cannot be mended but by nulling of it Friends this cavilling will not doe in the Day of Judgement Besides I pray give me an instance where it was ever practised that persons that were not Baptised did Ordaine a Minister If you aske me What need that question for we are Baptised therefore it doth not concerne us By whom I pray If you say by the Ministers
be said what need of that Ordination they may preach without It is true they may but it is not so comfortable as when men are set apart by a Divine institution there is an authority more conferred they may now baptize as they finde successe of their Ministry which was the old way and shal not need be put to those troubles which now they are Suppose laborious Mr. Eliot were not ordained who should baptize the Indians called home to Christ by him The first preachers that came into England were ordained before elected here as suppose they should convert divers Indians forty or fifty miles from any Plantation how shall these be baptised what shall they now elect and ordaine these men shall unbaptised persons ordaine an Officer where have we a rule for that then it seemes all these must come to another Church c. forty or fifty miles distant to a Church also whose language they understand not and there be baptised by a Minister whom they understand not nor he them Here are many odde things fall in crosse to all Scripture presidents but to have these ordained and sent forth is not crosse to the Scripture presidents but if this be granted then Ordination without election may give the essentials to an Officer But further here you say election gives the essentials I beseech you what shall we doe then with all those Scriptures where ordination is held out so fully shall we omit them if they containe but an Adjunct No I am sure this gracious Saint would not doe so his heart was so awed with high thoughts of God and his Word that he dared not omit such a Divine institution as those Scriptures hold out are then those six or seven Scriptures alledged for ordination as necessary to a Ministers Call as those three which are brought for election if not I pray give a reason why some Scriptures should be lesse set by then others in this nature Divine Authority we acknowledge in both but this was far from this reverend mans thoughts for we see him prove Church-Discipline to be a fundamentall point of Religion from imposition of hands then if these Scriptures be equally as necessary to the constitution of a Minister that none must dare to omit them we doe but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in saying that ordination is but an Adjunct c. In constituted Churches those who omit ordination goe crosse to those many texts of Scripture they follow not the patterne Some I know make little of election but I would give it the most and so sin against the second Commandement as do they who go crosse to the texts for election and if election in an extraordinary case may serve without a formall ordination in the like case may ordination be without election and so we are even Further in answer to the Argument they are Relates suppose I should say The election of the people gives a part of the essence to the Officer for so we considered the Call of a Minister to be a Totum arising out of election and ordination as Doctor Ames it may be you will say Relata quà sic doe not give a part of the essence but the whole here then will be our trouble whether we must bring Scripture to Logick or carry our Logick to Scripture why then doe not Ministers act officially upon bare election as I said before But it is answered their election gives the essence as he is their Minister but ordination gives the essence as he is a Minister Mr. Hudson hath spoken closly to this Vind. Chur. Cathol visâ—â— p. 138. ad 151. for ordination doth invest a Minister with power to act beyond those who have called him giving him an habituall power in actu primo to exercise and performe the Acts belonging to his Office elsewhere upon a Call I know indeed our New England Divines many I say not all as wel as reverend Mr. Hooker are of another opinion That a man is an Officer only to his own particular Congregation Relatorum mutuum est iter but suppose I should say A Minister bears an habitual relation to the whole Church-Catholick visible which some of our Divines doe now I thinke strongly prove for my part I could never swallow that notion that a Pastor preaches only as a Pastor to those who elected him and to other Churches as a gifted Brother I dare boldly affirme in the Apostles times and the purest Ages next them this notion was never heard As for this notion of a Catholick visible Church I have not so much busied my head about it till of late in my weak judgement I think there is so much said for it by Mr. Hudson especially and others that I suppose it will not easily be answered that which made me leane to this opinion was First the light which his Scriptures and Arguments bring along with them 2 I did not see by this notion that the people were at all defrauded of what is properly theirs they may elect officers they may have power to bring in testimony to exclude unworthy communicants yea or may object against any who should be admitted Church-members if Churches were in their first constituting if they knew good reason why they should not be admitted neither are they debarred from consenting with their officers in excommunication I say I doe not see but these priviledges may consist with this notion 3. Mr. Huds vind 160. 161. Let particular churches walk as they should regularly and they have as much liberty as they can desire if they walk irregularly See Mr. Cottons Keyes 53.54 the second Impression I saw this notion did not crosse that Position which I have held out viz. That a particular Church organized and walking regularly may execute all the power of the Keyes within it self I see not how a particular Church in this case is at all hindred for such a Church to walke irregularly and to claime exemption from all other Church-power let those that will be members of such Churches I desire not to be so but in such Churches where there may bee meanes to helpe a wicked heart 4. In this notion I saw a way how Congregations that have no Ministers may have Ministers ordained successively by officers which I am sure was the old way yea and officers may be judged per pares and excommunicated I saw it would bring in much order into Churches 5. The practises I observed in New England that did imply such a notion as this did lead me much to it 1. As that members of one Church did so frequently partake of the Sacraments both the Lords Supper and Baptisme in other Churches one Pastor it may be might administer the Sacrament of the Lords Supper to the members of five or six Churches at one time I know it is often said that a Mayor of one Corporation may administer justice to the members of another Corporation if they be under his jurisdiction but he