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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85400	Innocency and truth triumphing together; or, The latter part of an answer to the back-part of a discourse, lately published by William Prynne Esquire, called, A full reply, &c. Beginning at the foot of p. 17. of the said discourse, with this title or superscription, Certain brief animadversions on Mr. John Goodwins Theomachia. Wherein the argumentative part of the said animadversions is examined; together with some few animadversions upon some former passages in the said reply. Licensed and printed according to order.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.	1645 (1645)	Wing G1176; Thomason E24_8; ESTC R22666	90,413	109

Doctrine and Reformation did but touch to render them the hatred and indignation of the world Yea and Luther himself doubted not to raise it to a generall maxime or observation that Godly men must beare the name title of men that are seditious schismaticall and Authors of infinite evills and troubles in the world That great and blessed alteration and change that God made in the State of Religion and things of his worship by the sending of Jesus Christ into the world and the preaching of the Gospel is called the shaking of the Heavens and the Earth because of the great concussions troubles distractions rents and divisions in the great concussions troubles distractions rents and divisions in the world which did and doe yet daily accompany them by reason of the pride ignorance and unbeliefe of those which oppose either the one or the other And as the Doctrine of the Gospel in the generall never comes amongst any people in excellencie and power but that it smites the foundations of that unitie and peace wherein it finds them makes breaches upon them renting one part of them from another upon which discontents and disorders follow like the waves of the Sea in like manner every considerable piece or branch of the Gospel in the first discovery and breaking out of it even in such places and among such persons where and amongst whom the Doctrine of the Gospel in the generall hath been of a long time professed by reason of the strangenesse of it and that contrarietie and crossenesse which it beares to the judgements and wills of many must needs be offensive and distastefull unto them and so occasion distractions disorders discontents So that Mr. Prynne by representing my Parish as divided disordered by my Independent way hath rather given testimony to the truth and Evangelicalnesse of it then brought any argument to disprove either And to say as he doth a few lines after that he needs no other evidence to prove it a schismaticall by-path and so no way of Christ then the schismes and discords which it hath raised in other Parishes is just such a saying and resolution as that of the High Priest against our Saviour when he rent his cloaths and said He hath spoken blasphemie What further need have we of Witnesses The blasphemie of Christ and the guiltinesse of Independencie touching the matter of division and disorder are sins much of the same order and calculation To his fourth and last reason which renders him a man of jealousie against the way of Independencie and prevailes with him so farre that he cannot as he saith think it a Way of Christ wee Answer 1. That this way is no Pioner or underminer of Parliamentarie Authoritie nor hath Mr. Prynne found it nor ever shall find it such the principles of this way being none other then what are laid in the Scriptures unpossible it is that it should destroy or pull downe any thing which they build up Therefore if Mr. Prynne hath ought in this kind against any of the sons of this way let him implead these in a lawfull triall and spare not but if for their sakes he will needs blaspheme the way he will open a dore of example very effectuall for those that are opposite to his way of Presbyterie to heap shame infamie and reproach upon the head thereof without end yea and for those also that are enemies to Christian Religion to render that as hatefull wicked vile in the eyes of men as themselves can desire it should be esteemed If all the errors and misprisions found in the writings of Presbyteriall men should be charged upon the way of Presbyterie as the Authoresse and Foundresse of them she would appeare ten times more erroneous and deformed then her Independent adversaries are yet willing to judge or conceive her to be 2. For the Sons or Patrons of this way as Mr. Prynne pleaseth to term them I verily beleeve that there is none of them all but are willing ready and chearfull to invest Parliaments with as full high and compleat a power and Authoritie as are by any by all the rules and principles either of reason or Religion competible unto men If Mr. Prynne or any other of the Presbyterian way conceive that in times of Parliaments when they apprehend them like to be for them they may and ought to say that Gods are come down to us in the likenesse of men we confesse that we cannot our reason our Religion will not beare it at our hands subscribe any such Apotheosie But let him and his first survey the territories patrimonie and heritance of Heaven the royalties and prerogative of the most high God and of the Lord Jesus Christ blessed for ever and set them out by the line and rule either of reason or Religion and look what power Authoritie Jurisdiction soever shall be found situate lying and being without the compasse of this line no waies enterfeering with those that are within wee all unanimously universally professe that incunctanter and with both our hands we will cast and heap it upon the Parliament asking no further question for conscience sake Therefore whereas he challengeth this way for devesting Parliaments of all manner of Jurisdiction in matters of Religion and Church-Government we answer 3. That neither this way nor the Patrons of it devest them of any or any manner of Authoritie in what matters soever unto which Mr. Prynne or any other Master of the Presbyterian way is able Salvo jure coeli to entitle them For jurisdiction in matters of Religion and Church-Government we willingly give unto them the same line measure and proportion herein to the full which himself asserteth unto them from the examples of those Kings and Princes Cyrus Artaxerxes Darius c. which he insists upon p. 20. Who as he here said enacted good and wholsome Lawes for the worship honour and service of the true God Let him instance particularly in any such Law or Lawes enacted by any of them and doubtlesse none of us will denie the Parliament a power of enacting exceptis excipiendis the like But if Mr. Prynnes intent be to make Precedent of whatsoever was enacted or done by any or all of these Heathen Kings Princes and States to warrant a lawfulnesse of power in the Parliament of enacting or doing the same we conceive that he neither hath nor knows where to have any thing to justifie such an intent I trust that that Law enacted by Nebuchadnezzar and his Nobles Dan. 3. 6. That whosoever falleth not downe and worshippeth shall the same houre be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace shall not be drawne by him into precedent for the vindication of a Parliamentary Jurisdiction in matters of Religion and Church-Government 4. Whereas to make good his last charge against the way so often smitten by his pen he referres to the passage of the two Independent Brethren recited p. 3. of his Independencie examined

as meerly such by any call election or ordination whatsoever conferre a Pastorall office or dignitie upon any man The reason is because it is an essentiall propertie or part of the Pastorall office to feed rule and governe a flock of Christs sheep I meane a Societie or company of such persons who in the judgement of charitie are to be reputed such and to administer the seales of the Covenant ordinarily unto them c. Now no company of men meerly and simply as men have any power to invest any man with any authoritative power to performe either of those administrations One company or societie of men however qualified cannot derive any Authoritative power upon any man to performe the office of a Pastor to another societie of men Therefore except that company of men which calls and chuseth a person into the place or office of a Pastor as it supposeth be such a flock of Christ as was expressed their act in so calling and chusing is but a nullitie the person called hath indeed and in truth no Pastorall investiture upon him by vertue of such a call As for example Suppose a company of ignorantly prophane and desperately debauch'd men should make choyce of a man of worth to be a Pastor unto them the man thus called and chosen hath no authoritie or power hereby either to feed or govern any flock of Christ no not so much as any flock of Christ in appearance or to administer the seales of the Covenant unto any and consequently is made no Pastor thereby Or if Mr. Prynnes meaning be that a root meerly popular that is any company of people whatsoever may lawfully call or chuse a man to preach the Gospel unto them and in this sense be said to make a Minister I answer that the man thus called is no more a Minister then he was before nor hath he any more Authoritative power to preach the Gospel unto them by vertue of such a call then he had without it onely he hath thereby a greater opportunitie and a more speciall invitation from the providence of God to preach the Gospel unto those who so call him then unto others Therefore in this case there is no ministeriall extraction made out of a meere popular roote 4. Whereas he speaks parables and further demands Why not a spirituall extraction out of a secular roote as well as the best strong waters out of the vilest lees the richest mineralls out of the coursest earth the most Orient pearles out of the basest Oysters I answer 1. That I know not by what rule of true speaking Mr. Prynne either calls those the basest oysters out of which the most orient pearls or that the coursest earth out of which the richest mineralls or those the vilest lees out of which the best strong waters are extracted That expression of the Poet Veios habitante Camillo 〈◊〉 Roma fuit I never yet heard censured by any Noble births and inhabitants ennoble Cities and Countries And thou Bethlehem in the land of Juda art not the least among the Princes of Juda for out of thee shall come a Governor that shall rule my people Israel By the consent of this principle which hath testimony both from God and men those are not the basest but the noblest oysters which give birth and breeding to the most ortent pearles nor that the coursest but the finest and best earth that yeelds the richest mineralls nor those the vilest but the most generous and best deserving lees which gratifie their Distillator with the best strong waters But 2. Not to impose any tax upon an acyrologie there is this plain reason why no spirituall extraction out of a secular roote though all those other extractions may be made out of those respective roots appropriated unto them because a man may very possibly find a thing where it is but it is unpossible for him to find it where it is not A man may very easily and very lawfully extract five shillings out of his purse that hath five shillings or more in it but he that shall undertake to make an extraction of five shillings out of a purse that is emptie must Acheronta movere make himself a debtor to the black art The pearle is in the oyster and the minerall in the Earth and the strong water in the lee and therefore it is no great matter for art and nature joyning together partly by allurement and invitation partly by a stronger and more forcible hand to sequester all these from their native and proper elements and to draw them out of their dark and secret habitations Nor is it any waies unlawfull thus to practise upon them because God hath not serv'd any prohibition upon men to inhibite any such extractions or separations either in a naturall or artificiall way But there is no such spirituall extraction as the two Brethren speak of in their secular roote there is no Ecclesiasticall Legislative power in matters of Religion worship and Church-Government neither formally nor eminently in unsanctified persons rude multitudes men ignorant of God c. therefore no such power can by any extraction whatsoever proceed or be drawne out of these There is indeed a lawfulnesse of power in them if they had a principle to incline them to the due exercise of it to assist the servants of God against violence and wrong to incourage and countenance them in well-doing to admonish and reprove them for doing any such evill which falls within the compasse of their cogniance yea there is a lawfulnesse of power in them if they have not given it out of their hands already and invested others with it to make Lawes for the regulation of the Saints themselves in all their civill affaires and to restraine them by mulcts and penalties from all such courses actions and practices which are properly and in their natures disserviceable unto the common peace and weal-publick And all such power as this they may lawfully devise and demise unto persons meet for the manage and exercise of it because in this case they doe but give of their own yea they give it in a regular and rationall way upon which termes God hath given unto every man a liberty or power to doe with his owne what he pleaseth But the persons we now speak of never had a power of regulating the Saints in their Religious or Spirituall affairs or of compelling them under temporal mulcts and penalties to order themselves in the worship and service of God as they pleased or to preach and teach onely such points and doctrines amongst them as they should think well of Therefore how they should convey or make over any such power as this unto others by a Title or Conveyance good in Law I desire Mr. Prynne to consider If his desire had been to have paralleld the Brethrens spirituall extraction out of a Secular root with naturall comparisons or similitudes he should have done it not with those which hee hath