2.11 1 Tim. 1.2 Tit. 1.4 Phil 2.10 1 Ioh. 2.1.28 and 3.7 and 4.4 The Ministers and the Elders are not onely our Brethren but also our Fathers Ergo they must as well use paternall authority over us as brotherly charity towards us 4. So also combined Presbyteries or as it were Fathers of simple Presbyteries because of their greater power to judge 5. The like of this Government hath never been heard of in the world neither in State nor Common-wealth before and therefore seemeth it to us to be repugnant unto the Law of Nature for what else is the Law of Nature but the common consent of all men How absurd therefore is that Government so destitute of all authority have the sheep as great authoirty as the Sheepherd if so it is as good to be a sheep as a Sheepherd 6. If an Authoritative power cannot hold in the Church or among Churches because that we are all Brethren and Sisters no more can it hold in the State betwixt King and Subject the father and the son the master and the servant for we are all Brethren in Christ so this Foundation or Ground-work will destroy all sort of Politicall and Domesticall Authority Our Brethren would do well also to consider whether their Grounds or those of our Government will better consist with the Authority of the civill Magistrate for according to this reason a King in a State should have no power at all over his Brother 7. In the State there be divers Judicatories Superiour and Inferiour wherein the Superiour hath an authoritative power over the inferiour Ergo in the Church since there is the same reason for both viz. reparation of the offence taken at inferiour Judicatories But because ye will seem to be much addicted to the civill Magistrate as if your Ecclesiasticall Government were altogether subordinate unto his power and blame us as not giving him his due which ye note by a particular Parenthesis as if ye would have us to take particular notice of it Therefore before we end this Section we shall be very willing to do it In saying that the Presbyteriall Excommunication is no more effectuall then your Sentence of non-Communion without the Magistrates Power ye adde this Parenthesis To which we give as much and as we think more then the Principles of the Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld By whose counsell or for what end this Parenthesis is inserted and such a comparison made I know not If ye have no Politicall ayms I am assured ye comply very much with Policy If ye grant him so much ye would do well to declare how much and wherein and not to feed him with generalities and Platonicall Idees as abstract here from all matter as ye professed formerly your Church-Government was abstracted from all other Governments It is a Maxime in Philosophy and in Rhetorick both That Sermones generales non movent and praised be God that the King and Parliament are wise and will not feed upon so abstract forms As for us since ye keep your selves upon such generalities it is impossible to us to answer any thing in particular unlesse we guesse at your meaning In generall therefore we say 1. That amongst men well bred all comparisons are odious 2. That either ye give unto the civill Magistrate onely his due or something more if onely his due ye lay a very heavie aspersion upon all Presbyterians as if they were not good Subjects in denying him a part of his due If more who gave you the power to do so 3. Either ye grant him more in Civill or in Spirituall matters In Civill matters ye cannot for ye can grant him no more then he hath by the Laws of the Land whereunto we are all equally subject and therefore must grant him as much one as another If in Spirituall matters we grant him his externall power as we declared in the beginning And for intrinsecall Spirituall power 1. It is not in your power to grant him any at all neither can ye give him more Spirituall obedience then Scripture permitteth you or give him a part of the Spirituall power that ye have received of God for that were to lay upon another the burden that God hath laid upon you and so serve God by a Proctor 2. It is onely in God who is King in this Spirituall Kingdom Master in this House and a Father in this Family who can give power therein to any man we dare not be so bold If ye pretend to do it I say with the Comick Poet de te largitor puer be liberall upon your own purse 4 If ye will do so look how Authoritative is your power who take Authority over Gods Ordinance and dispose of it as if it were your own so do not the Presbyterians 5. The Civill Magistrate acknowledgeth himself to be a Politicall and no Ecclesiasticall person since he is neither Pastor nor Doctor nor Ruling Elder in Christs Church and therefore arrogateth no Spirituall Authority to himself 6. We desire to know of you Brethren what ye understand here by the Magistrate Whether the Supreme or Subaltern If the Supreme whether the King or Parliament and principally at this time If the Subaltern we ask of you Whether every Justice of Peace shall or can judge of all Ecclesiasticall matters And if he cannot whether he can be a competent Judge 7. What if the Civill Magistrate be a Papist what if some of the Kings Councell be Papists or Heterodox as some in the beginning of this Parliament were will ye grant that they judge in matters of Religion So the Turk the Antichrist and Pagans shall judge in matters of Religion amongst their Protestant Subjects If so our Protestants in France in Polonia and otherwhere are in a very fair way Its pity but such a Maxime should have been published in Queen Maries time and at Saint Bartholomews day in France at that Butchery or Massacre of Protestants 8. The Apostle 1 Cor. 6. findes fault with the Christians that did plead before Infidels in civill matters what then would he not have said if godly men would have pleaded before them and submitted matters of Religion unto their judgement 9. This power that ye grant to the Magistrate is either Internall or Externall in regard of the Church If Externall we grant it as well as ye If Internall then he must be an Ecclesiasticall Person And then 10. It should follow That a Soveraign Prince should as well be Soveraign in the Church as in the State and so Internall head of both which is derogatory to Christs Royaltie as our Doctors have sundry times cleerly demonstrated it against the Jesuites and other Papists 11. Women that are commanded to be silent in the Church should rule it and command men in it since they may be Soveraign Princes in it and over it and so Leglise tomberoit on quenvillo And if it be replyed wherefore may they not as well rule the Church as the
in the World for since it is publiei juris published they will assubject your judgement unto theirs by way of Agitation or disputing of it amongst themselves as much as all the Divines of England yea whether ye will or not Again Since both Houses were pleased to make you Members of that Assembly was not that a sufficient Justification and Vindication of your Persons from all calumnies spread against you and already scattered without speaking a word for your selves § 24. Pag. 24. Truely it is to be supposed that the two Houses would never recommend men thither either ignorant or vicious but the learnedest and godliest of the Kingdom so this your Apology is unseasonable Onely this needs an Apology That being Members of the Assembly ye will not submit your selves unto the Assembly of Divines but take odde wayes proper to you five alone to publish particular Apologies and desire a particular Toleration which no other Members of the Assembly do But as for this transeat cum coeteris crroribus It sufficeth that ye see extraordinary testimonies of the Parliaments and Assemblies most tender affection towards you how they have tolerated much in you the like whereof hath not yet been tolerated in any Member either of Parliament or of the Assembly and all to the end to chase away all pannick fears from your mindes and pretended disadvantages which ye did forcsee § 26. § 26. Pag. 28. Howsoever ye commend much the Parliament and declare That ye grant more to the Civill Magistrate then the principles of Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld Yet even here ye rap him over the Knuckles as if in making you Members of the Assembly he should have been partiall in placing you there with so many disadvantages yea as ye say And therein also upon all sorts of disadvantages which we could not but foresee both in number abilities of learning Authoritie the stream of publike interest Trusting God both with our selves and his own Truth Answ I maintain that the Parliament has done you no wrong for ye were not forced to sit there If there be so great disadvantages ye might have chosen whether you would have sit there at all or not All rationall men think it a great favour which ye esteem so great a disadvantage And as for the Number 1. Think ye that the Parliament ought to have put in such a Number of you that agree not in your opinions amongst your selves as might have over-swayed all the Divines of the Kingdom to the end that ye might afterward have compelled us all to quit the Kingdom as your Friends of New-England have done to others 2. Were ye to be compared in number with the rest of the Divines in this Kingdom who are hundreds for one of you Justice consisteth not in an Arithmeticall but in a Geometricall propertion which here has been observed towards you and that with more equitie then Justice 3. Neither did the Parliament hinder you to call as many Divines of your Profession as pleased you to consult with apart 4. Neither need ye so great a number in the Assemblie for ye seem not for any thing we can see resolved to submit your selves or to acquiesse with any pluralitie of voices either of Parliament or Assemblie wherefore then desire ye so great a number As for Abilities in Learning 1. Ye might also have had with you if it had pleased you as many learned men as ye could finde 2. Neither beleeve I that any others of your Profession could prudently take such a businesse in hand without you Who ever knows you knows well ye want no abilities to dispute your opinion in any Assemblie in Europe Men of learning and of wisedome therefore think that you speak this rather out of modestie then otherwise What ye understand by Authoritie I know not it cannot be Ecclesiasticall since ye acknowledge none in the Church Then it must be politicall and namelie that of the King and Parliament since that no other at this present have power over you and then I could wish ye had spoken more considerately Publike interest Either this must be taken of publike interest in Religion and then it 1º or should be our sole aym and it is no disadvantage for you That both the Parliament and the Assemblie be led by this Interest Or in State and then ye wrong both the Parliament and the Assemblie as if they measured Religion by Worldlie Ends and Interests wherein in ye are not to be beleeved Neither will we retaliate unto you that you may have some further Interests yet that we know not of And consequentlie ye need not to fear for your Persons as if ye were in danger or had subject to fear persecution as in former time § 27. Pag. 28. Ye excuse your selves from false Doctrine whereof no man accuseth you § 28. Ye tell us that the Difference betwixt you and us is not so great the lesse it is the lesse should ye be suiters for a Toleration and if ye obtained it the greater should be your Schisme § 28. Pag. 30. Here also ye excuse your selves that ye have not made a Scholastique Relation of your Judgement whereunto we have already answered and in so doing your opinions remaining lesse known hardly can they be distinctlie refuted § 28. Pag. 39 30. Afterwards ye require two things of the Parliament That it will look upon you under no other Notion or Character then as those who do as little differ from the Reformed Churches and your Brethren yea far lesse then they do from what themselves were three yeers past or then the generalitie of this Kingdom from it self of late 2. Ye require an allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse Answ And we pray you do as they have done to the end the Parliament may look upon you as they do upon them 1. They never condemned all the Protestant Churches as ye do 2. They never desired a Toleration to make a Separation as ye do 3. Either they approved not the ill of the times past but patientlie endured it according to their light hoping and praying to God for better without Schisme 4. Or approved it but when it pleased God in his mercy to illuminate them they disapproved what before they had approved of and changed from worse to better which if ye do O what a joy shall it be unto them and to us all and what a contentment may it bring unto your selves And finally As for the latitude and tolerance ye sue for it is unjust and most pernicious both to Christs Church and the Kingdom as we have hear already cleerly demonstrated FINIS
that regard it is not compleat full or entire If of a Power compleat in its own kinde or nature ye say nothing but what we say since it is our opinion That every Particular Congregation hath a compleat Power in it self such as is due to such a Congregation dependent upon that of Classes and Synods in case of Appeal whereby it may be challenged to erre grosly If it be so Wherefore contest ye with us who give you no subject of quarrell as not dissenting from you in that particular Pag. 14. 2º they say That they claim not an independent power in every Congregation to give an account or to be subject to no others Answ Then your power is dependent upon some others then it must give an account and be subject to some other If subject to some others then that other is superiour And what say we more onely we say that there is a subordination betwixt superiour and inferiour Ecclesiastical Judicatories which ye hold here to be juris divini we partim divini partim naturalis aut mixti I pray you Brethren agree these two Propositions how a Church can have a full and compleat Government and yet not independent it should seem to me that either you contradict not us or contradict your selves within the compasse of two lines Pag. 14. 3º they deny That by the Institution of Christ or his Apostles the Combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleat and entire seat of Church-power over each Church so combined Here ye attribute unto our Churches an opinion That they own not as their own viz. That the Combination of Elders of many Churches is the first Seat of Church-power for they hold the contrary viz. That the first Seat of Government is in Parochiall Churches since there the parties debates their cause in first Instances if ye say that by first ye understand the principall then ye cannot deny but that Senate or Assembly whereunto Particular Congregations are subject whose judgement according to Gods Word they must obey and of whose judgement their judgements depend must be the principall Seat of Church-power for that is principall whereof the other dependeth and to which the other is subject Neither say we That it is the compleat and entire Seat of all Ecclesiasticall Judgement since in things of lesse concernment and that onely belong to Particular Congregations we hold the Eldership of that Congregation may judge and sometimes judges in effect compleatly and entirely But ye propound a tacite Objection The Eldership so combined cannot challenge authority over the Churches they feed not Answ 1. We have answer'd That our Eldership challengeth no such authority to it self 2. That this argument striketh no lesse at your judgements of Neighbour Churches against Particular Congregations then at that of combined Elderships against a Particular Church since your Neighbour Churches feed no more that particular Congregation then our combined Elderships a particular Church 2. We deny that our Classes and Synods or as ye call them combined Presbyteries or Elderships feed not particular Congregations for they govern them which is a certain sort of feeding due to Elders and in this signification Kings Princes and Dukes are called Pastors or feeders of their People because they rule them Jor. 6.3 and 12 10. But to bring more light to this captious Proposition and all fallacious Arguments that may be grounded hereupon here I will more fully declare in what sense these Propositions may be true or false viz. 1. The combined Eldership hath power to feed rule and teach the Church or all Particular Churches 2. The combined Eldership feedeth or ruleth all Particular Churches 3. The Elders of the combined Eldership have power to feed or rule Particular Churches And for this effect note 1. That the feeding or teaching of the Church may be taken either in actu secundo for actuall feeding or the exercise of the power of feeding as when a Preacher teaches actually c. 2. In actu primo for the morall power which Ministers have to teach in vertue of their Vocation and Mission to their Charge and Admission into it So the Power to feed howsoever it signifie formally the Actum primum as ruling Actum secundum may be taken in Actu primo for the Power that a Minister hath to feed or in Actu secundo for the Act of feeding proceeding from the power or first act 3. Item in Actu signato when a power or an act is signified to belong to a thing that exerciseth not the act as when a King commands but putteth it not in execution or in actu exercito when it is exercised so particular Officers have the power in actu exercito which the King and superiour Judges and Magistrates have in actu signato 3. That the Ministers or Elders of the Eldership may be considered in quality of a collective body of Elders or severally every one apart which the School-men call ordinarily collectivè distributivè If severally then either Absolutely without any relation to the collective body of the Eldership and in quality of particular Ministers of their own Particular Churches or with some relation or respect to the collective body or combination of the Eldership viz. as parts thereof 4. The whole collective body of the Eldership may be taken either formally as it is a collection of sundry Elders according to the Order established in the Church representing many Churches combined and consociated from which they have their Commissions or materially in quality of Ministers or Elders of whom the Consociation or Combination or Synod or Classicall Assembly of Elders is compounded 5. Both the collective body or consociation of Elders which is a representative body of many Churches as also every particular reall Church and the whole Militant Church may be considered as other things aut ut Totum simpliciter aut ut Totum totaliter either as a Totall or Totally as a Whole or wholly so may we say of omne it may be taken simpliciter pro omne vel pro Omni omnino vel omni modo this word All may be taken absolutely for all or for all considered all manner of wayes or altogether Then a Totum is taken totaliter or totally or a whole thing wholly and this word All all wayes when it is taken according to all the Modifications that it can have As for example Peter is a Totum or a Whole-man when he is lying in his Bed at Rome he is Totus Romae all or whole at Rome but not Totaliter totally not wholly or all wayes for he may sit and stand at Rome and when he is lying he is not according to these other wayes and Modifications viz. standing c. Yea I may say that it is impossible That at one time a Totum be or exist in one place totum totaliter i. e. Secundum omnes suos modes possibiles multi enim divisim sunt possibiles sed conjunctim