was ever so cruel as a Popular Assembly passed by the name of Liberty The Presbyterian Ministers in the beginning of the Reign of Q. Eliz. did not because they durst not publickly preach against the Discipline of the Church but not long after by the favour perhaps of some great Courtier they went abroad Preaching in most of the Market Towns of England as the Preaching Friers had formerly done upon Working-days in the morning in which these and others of the same Tenets that had charge of Souls both by the Manner and Matter of their Preaching applied themselves wholly to the winning of the People to a liking of their Doctrines and good opinion of their Persons And first for the manner of their Preaching they so framed their Countenance and Gesture at the entrance into the Pulpit and their Pronunciation both in their Prayer and Sermon and used the Scripture-phrase whether understood by the People or not as that no Tragedian in the World could have acted the part of a right godly man better than these did insomuch that a man unacquainted with such Art could never suspect any ambitious Plot in them to raise Sedition against the State as they then had designed or doubt that the vehemence of their Voice for the same words with the usual Pronunciation had been of little force and forcedness of their Gesture and Looks could arise from any thing but zeal to the Service of God And by this Art they came into such credit that numbers of men used to go forth of their own Parishes and Towns on working-days leaving their Calling and on Sunday leaving their own Churches to hear them Preach in other places and to despise their own and all other Preachers that acted not as well as they And as for those Ministers that did not usually Preach but instead of Sermons did read to the People such Homilies as the Church had appointed they esteemed and called them Dumb Dogs Secondly for the matter of their Sermons because the anger of the People in the late Roman Usurpation was then fresh they saw there could be nothing more gracious with them than to Preach against such other Points of the Romish Religion as the Bishops had not yet condemned that so receding farther from Popery than they did they might with glory to themselves leave a suspition on the Bishops as men not well purged from Idolatry Thirdly before their Sermons their Prayer was or seemed to be ex tempore which they pretended to be dictated by the Spirit of God within them and many of the People believed or seemed to believe it or any man might see that they did not take care before-hand what they should say in their Prayers and from hence came a dislike of the Common-Prayer-book that men might not see to what they were to say Amen Fourthly They did never in their Sermons or but lightly against the Lucrative Vices of men of Trade or Handicraft such as are feigning lying couzening hypocrisie and other uncharitableness except want of charity to their Pastor and to the Faithful which was a great ease to the generality of Citizens and the Inhabitants of Market-Towns and no little profit to themselves Fifthly By preaching up an opinion that men were to be assured of their salvation by the testimony of their own private spirit meaning the holy Ghost dwelling within them And from this opinion the People that found in themselves a sufficient hatred towards the Papists and an ability to repeat the Sermons of these men at their coming home made no doubt but that they had all that was necessary how fraudulently and spitefully soever they behaved themselves to their Neighbours that were not reckoned amongst the Saints and sometimes to those also Sixthly They did indeed with great earnestness and severity inveigh often against two sins Carnal Lust and vain Swearing which without question was very well done but the common people were thereby inclined to believe that nothing else was sin but that which was forbidden in the Third and Seventh Commandment for few men do understand by the name of Lust any other Concupiscence than that which is forbidden in the Seventh Commandment for men are not ordinarily said to Lust after another man's Cattle or other Goods or Possessions and never made much scruple of the acts of Fraud and Malice but endeavoured to keep themselves from Uncleanness onely or at least from the scandal of it And whereas they did both in their Sermons and Writings maintain and inculcate that the very first motions of the Mind that is to say the delight Men and Women took in the sight of one anothers Form though they checked the proceeding thereof so that it never grew up to be a Design was nevertheless a Sin they brought Young men into Desperation and to think themselves damn'd because they could not which no man can and is contrary to the Constition of Nature behold a delightful Object without Delight and by this means they became Confessors to such as were thus troubled in Conscience and were obeyed by them as these Spiritual Doctors in all Cases of Conscience B. Yes divers of them did preach frequently against Oppression A. 'T is true I had forgot that but it was before such as were free enough from it I mean the Common People who would easily believe themselves oppressed but never Oppressors And therefore you may reckon this amongst their Artificers to make their People believe they they were oppressed by the King or perhaps by the Bishops or both and inclined the meaner sort to their Party afterward when there should be occasion but this was but sparingly done in the time of Q. Eliz. whose fear and Jealousie they were afraid of Nor had they as yet any great power in the Parliament House whereby to call in question her Prerogative by Petitions of Right and other Devices as they did afterwards when Democratical Gentlemen had received them into their Council for the design of changing the Monarchical Government into Popular which they called Liberty B. Who could think that such Horrible Designs as these could so easily and so long remain covered with the Cloak of Godliness for that they were most Impious Hypocrites is manifest enough by the War these proceedings ended in and by the War committed But when began first to appear in Parliament the attempt of Popular Government and by whom A. As to the time of attempting the change of Government from Monarchical to Democratical we must-distinguish They did not challenge the Soveraignty in plain terms and by that name till they had slain the King nor the Rights thereof altogether by particular Heads till the King was driven from London by Tumults raised in the City against him and retired for the security of his person to York where he had not been many days when they sent unto him Nineteen Propositions whereof above a Dozen were Demands of several Powers Essential parts of the Power Soveraign but before that time they had demanded some of them in a Petition which they called a Petition of Right which nevertheless the King had granted them in a former Parliament though
with them whilst the King had his great Council about him But neither they nor the Lords could present to the King as a Grievance That the King took upon him to make the Laws to chuse his own Privy Council to raise Money and Soldiers to defend the Peace and Honour of the Kingdom to make Captains in his Army to make Governours of his Castles whom he pleased for this had been to tell the King that it was one of their Grievances that he was King B. What did the Parliament do whilst the King was in Scotland A. The King went in August after which the Parliament September the 8th adjourn'd till the 20th of October and the King return'd about the end of November following in which time the most Seditious of both Houses and which had designed the Change of Government and to cast off Monarchy but yet had not wit enough to set up another Government in its place and consequently left it to the chance of War made a Cabal amongst themselves in which they projected how by seconding one another to Govern the House of Commons and invented how to put the Kingdom by the Power of that House into a Rebellion which they then called a posture of Defence against such Dangers from abroad as they themselves should feign and publish Besides whilst the King was in Scotland the Irish Papists got together a great Party with an Intention to Massacre the Protestants there and had laid a design for the â—eizing of Dublin Castle October the 20th where the King's Officers of the Government of the County made their Residence and had effected it had it not been Discovered the night before The manner of the discovery and the Murders they committed in the Country afterwards I need not tell you since the whole story of it is extant B. I wonder they did not expect and provide for a Rebellion in Ireland as soon as they began to quarrel with the King in England For was there any body so ignorant as not to know that the Irish Papists did long for a change of Religion there as well as the Presbyterians in England Or that in general the Irish Nation did hate the name of Subjection to England or would longer be quiet than they feared an Army out of England to chastize them What better time then could they take for their Rebellion than this wherein they were encouraged not only by our weakness caused by this Division between the King and his Parliament but also by the Example of the Presbyterians both of the Scorch and English Nation But what did the Parliament do upon this occasion in the King's absence A. Nothing but consider what use they might make of it to their own ends partly by imputing it to the King 's evil Councellors and partly by occasion thereof to demand of the King the Power of Pressing and Ordering of Soldiers which Power whosoever has has also without doubt the whole â—overaignty B. When came the King back A. He came back the 25th of November and was welcomed with the Acclamations of the common people as much as if he had been the most beloved of the Kings before him but found not a Reception by the Parliament answerable to it They presently began to pick new Quarrels against him out of every thing he said to them December 2. the King called together both Houses of Parliament and then did only recommend unto them the raising of Succours for Ireland B. What Quarrel could they pick out of that A. None but in order thereto as they may pretend they had a Bill in Agitation to assert the power of Levying and Pressing â—oldiers to the two Houses of the Lords and Commons which was as much as to take â—â—om the King the Power of the Militia which is in effect the whole Soveraign Power for he that hath the Power of Levying and Commanding of his Soldiers has all other Rights of Soveraignty which he shall please to claim The King hearing of it called the Houses of Parliament together again on December the 14th and then pressed again the business of Ireland as there was need for all this while the Irish were murdering the English in Ireland and strengthening themselves against the Forces they expected to come out of England and withall told them he took notice of the Bill in Agitation for Pressing of Soldiers and that he was content it should pass with a Salvo Jure both for him and them because the present time was unreasonable to dispute it in B. What was there unreasonable in this A. Nothing what 's unreasonable is one question what they quarrell'd at is another They quarrell'd at this that His Majesty took notice of the Bill while it was in debate in the House of Lords before it was presented to him in the Course of Parliament And also that he shewed himself displeased with those that propounded the third Bill both which they declared to be against the Priviledges of Parliament and petitioned the King to give them Reparation against those by whose evil Council he was induced to it that they might receive condign punishment B. This was cruel proceeding Do not the Kings of England use to sit in the Lords House when they please And was not this Bill then in debate in the House of Lords It is a strange thing that a man should be lawfully in the company of men where he must needs hear and see what they say and do and yet must not take notice of it so much as to the same Company for though the King was not present at the Debate it self yet it was lawful for any of the Lords to make him acquainted with it Any one of the House of Commons though not present at a Proposition or Debate in the House nevertheless hearing of it from some of his fellow Members may certainly not only take notice of it but also speak to it in the House of Commons But to make the King give up his Friends and Counsellors to them to be put to Death Banishment or Imprisonment for their good will to him was such a Tyranny over a King no King ever exercised over any Subject but in cases of Treason or Murder and seldom then A. Presently hereupon grew a kind of War between the Peers of Parliament and those of the Secretaries and other able Men that were with the King â—or upon the 15th of December they sent to the King a Paper called a Remonstrance of the State of the Kingdom and with it a Petition both which they caused to be published in the Remonstrance they complained of certain mischievous Designs of a Malignant Party then before the beginning of the Parliament grown â—â—pe and did set forth what means had been used for the preventing of it by the Wisdom of the Parliament what Rubs they had found therein what course was fit to be taken for the restoring and establishing the Antient Honour Greatness and Safety of the Crown and
which they omitted nothing of their former Slanders against His Majesties Government but inserted certain Propositions declarative of their own pretended Right viz. I. That whatsoever they declare to be Law ought not to be questioned by the King II. That no Precedent can be Limits to bound their Proceedings III. That a Parliament for the Public Good may dispose of any thing wherein the King or Subject hath a Right and that they without the King are this Parliament and the Judge of this Public Good and that the King's consent is not necessary IV. That no Member of either House ought to be troubled for Treason Felony or any other Crime unless the Cause he first brought before the Paliament that they may judge of the Fact and give leave to proceed if they see Cause V. That the Sovereign Power resides in both Houses and that the King ought to have no Negative Voice VI. That the Levying of Forces against the Personal Commands of the King though accompanied with his presence is not Levying War against the King but the Levying of War against his Politic Person viz. his Laws c. VII That Treason cannot be committed against his Person otherwise than as he is intrusted with the Kingdom and discharges that Trust and that they have a Power to judge whether he hath discharged his Trust or not VIII That they may dispose of the King when they will B. This is plain-dealing and without hypocrisie Could the City of London swallow this A. Yes and more too if need be London you know has a great Belly but no palate nor taste of Right and Wrong In the Parliament Roll of Henry IV. amongst the Articles of the Oath the King at his Coronation took there is one runs thus Concedes Justas Leges Consuetudines esse tenendas promiâ—tes per te eas esse protegendas ad honorem Dei corroborandas quas Vulgus elegerit Which the Parliament urged for their Legislative Authority and therefore interpret quas Vulgus elegerit which the People shall choose as if the King should swear to protect and corroborate Laws before they were made whether they be Good or Bad whereas the words signifie no more but that he shall protect and corroborate such Laws as they have chosen that is to say the Acts of Parliament then in being And in the Records of the Exchequer it is thus Will yea grant to hold and keep the Laws and rightful Customs which the Commonalty of this your Kingdom have And will you defend and uphold them c And this was the Answer His Majesty made to that Point B. I think His Answer very full and clear but if the words were to be interpreted in the other sence yet I see no reason why the King should be bound to swear to them for Henry IV. came to the Crown by the Votes of a Parliament not much inferior in wickedness to this Long Parliament that Deposed and Murdered their Lawful King saving that it was not the Parliament it self but the Usurper that murdered King Richard II. A. About a week after in the beginning of May the Parliament sent the King another Paper which they stil'd The Humble Petition and Advice of both Houses Containing Nineteen Propositions which when you shall hear you shall be able to judge what Power they meant to leave to the King more than to any of His Subjects The first of them is this I. That the Lords and other of His Majesties Privy Council and all great Officers of State both at home and abroad be put from their Imployments and from his Council save only such as should be approved of by both Houses of Parliament and none put into their places but by approbation of the said Houses And that all Privy Counsellors take an Oath for the due Execution of their places in such form as shall be agreed upon by the said Houses II. That the great Affairs of the Kingdom be Debated Resolv'd and Transacted only in Parliament and such as shall presume to do any thing to the contrary to be reserved to the Censure of the Parliament and such other Matters of State as are proper for His Majesties Privy Council shall be Debated and Concluded by such as shall from time to time be chosen for that place by both Houses of Parliament And that no Publick Act concerning the Affairs of the Kingdom which are proper for his Privy Council be esteemed valid as proceeding from the Royal Authority unless it be done by the Advice and Consent of the Major part of the Council attested under their Hands and that the Council be not more than 25 nor less than 15 and that when a Counsellors place falls it shall not be supplied without the assent of the Major part of the Council and that such choice also shall be void if the next Parliament after confirm it not III. That the Lord High Steward of England Lord High Constable Lord Chancellor or Lord Keeper of the Great Seal Lord Treasurer Lord Privy Seal Earl Marshal Lord Admiral Warden of the Cinque Ports chief Governor of Ireland Chancellor of the Exchequer Master of the Wards Secretaries of State Two Chief Justices and Chief Baron be always chosen with the Approbation of both Houses of Parliament and in the Intervals of Parliament by the Major part of the Privy Council IV. That the Government of the King's Children shall he committed to such as both Houses shall approve of and in the Intervals of Parliament such as the Privy Council shall approve of that the Servants then about them against whom the Houses have just exception should be remov'd V. That no Marriage be concluded or treated of for any of the King's Children without consent of Parliament VI. That the Laws in force against the Jesuits Priests and Popish Recusants be strictly put in execution VII That the Votes of Popish Lords in the House of Peers be taken away and that a Bill be passed for the Education of the Children of Papists in the Protestant Religion VIII That the King will be pleas'd to reform the Church-Government and Liturgy in such manner as both Houses of Parliament shall advise IX That he would be pleased to rest satisfied with that course the Lords and Commons have appointed for ordering the Militia and recall his Declarations and Proclamations against it X. That such Members as have been put out of any Place or Office since this Parliament began may be restor'd or have satisfaction XI That all Privy Counsellors and Judges take an Oath the Form whereof shall be agreed on and setled by Act of Parliament for the maintaining the Petition of Right and of certain Statutes made by the Parliament XII That all the Judges and Officers placed by Approbation of both Houses of Parliament may hold their places quamdiu benè se gesserint XIII That the Justice of Parliament may pass upon all Delinquents whether they be within the Kingdom or fled out of it
of granting it they made an Ordinance That the Commanders of the Militia of London in case the King should attempt to come within the Line of Communication should raise what Forces they thought fit to suppress Tumults to apprehend such as came with him and to secure i.e. to imprison his Person from danger If the King had adventured to come and had been imprisoned what would the Parliament have done with him They had dethron'd him by their Votes and therefore could have no security while he lived though in Prison it may be they would not have put him to death by a High Court of Justice publicly but secretly some other way B. He should have attempted to get beyond Sea A. That had been from Oxford very difficult Besides it was generally believ'd that the Scotch Army had promis'd him that not only His Majesty but also his Friends that should come with him should be in their Army safe not only for their persons but also for their honours and consciences 'T is a pretty trick when the Army and the particular Soldiers of that Army are different things to make the Soldiers promise what the Army means not to perform July 11. the Parliament sent their Propositions to the King at Newcastle which Propositions they pretended to be the only way to a settled and well-grounded Peace They were brought by the Earl of Pembroke the Earl of Suffolk Sir VValter Earl Sir John Hyppesley Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Robinson whom the King asked If they had power to treat And when they said No he ask'd why they might not as well have been sent by a Trumpeter The propositions were the same dethroning ones which they used to send and therefore the King would not assent to them Nor did the Scots swallow them at first but made some exceptions against them only it seems to make the Parliament perceive they meant not to put the King into their hands gratis and so at last the bargain was made between them and upon payment of 200000 l. the King was put into the hands of the Commissioners which the English Parliament sent down to receive him B. What a vile Complexion hath this Action compounded of feigned Religion and very covetousness cowardize perjury and treachery A. Now the War that seemed so just by many unseemly things is ended you will see almost nothing in these Rebels but baseness and falseness besides their folly By this time the Parliament had taken in all the rest of the Kings Garisons whereof the last was Pendennis Castle whither Duke Hamilton had been sent Prisoner by the King B. What was done during this time in Ireland and Scotland A. In Ireland there had been a Peace made by order from His Majesty for a time which by divisions by the Irish was ill kept The Popish Party the Pope's Nuncio being then there took this to be the time for delivering themselves from their subjection to the English besides the time of the Peace was now expired B. How were they subject to the English more than the English to the Irish They were subject to the King of England but so also were the English to the King of Ireland A. The distinction is somewhat too subtil for common understanding In Scotland the Marquis of Montross for the King with a very few men had miraculously with Victories over-run all Scotland where many of his Forces out of too much security were permitted to be absent for a while of which the Enemy having intelligence suddenly came upon them and forced them to flie back into the High-lands to recruit where he bagan to recover strength when the King commanded him being then in the hands of the Scots at Newcastle to disband and he departed from Scoâ—land by Sea In the end of the same year 1646. the Parliament caused the King's great Seal to be broken Also the King was brought to Holmeby and there kept by the Parliaments Commissioners and here was an end of that War as to England and Scotland but not to Ireland About this time also dyed the Earl of Essex whom the Parliament had discarded B. Now that there was Peace in England and the King in Prison in whom was the Sovereign Power A. The Right was certainly in the King but the exercise was yet in no body but contended for as in a game at Cards without fighting both the years 1647. 1648. between the Parliament and Oliver Cromwel Lieutenant General to Sir Thomas Fairfax You must know that when King Henry VIII abolished the Pope's Authority here and took upon him to be the Head of the Church the Bishops as they could not resist him so neither were they discontented with it For whereas the Pope before allowed not the Bishops to claim Jurisdiction in their Diocesses Jure Divino that is of Right immediately from God but by the Gift and Authority of the Pope now that the Pope was outed they made no doubt but the divine Right was in themselves After this the City of Geneva and divers other places beyond Sea having revolted from the Papacy set up Presbyteries for the Government of their several Churches and divers English Scholars that went beyond Sea during the Persecution of Queen Mary were much taken with this Government and at their return in the time of Q. Elizabeth and ever since have endeavor'd to the great trouble of the Church and Nation to set up that Government here wherein they might domineer and applaud their own Wit and Learning And these took upon them not only a Divine Right but also a Divine Inspiration and having been connived at and countenanced sometimes in their frequent Preaching they introduced many strange and many pernicious Doctrines out-doing the Reformation as they pretended both of Luther and Calvin receding from the former Divinity or Church-Philosophy for Religion is another thing as much as Luther and Calvin had receded from the Pope and distracted their Auditors into a great number of Sects as Brownists Anabaptists Independants Fifth-Monarchy Men Quakers and divers others all commonly called by the name of Fanaticks insomuch as there was no so dangerous an Enemy to the Presbyterians as this Brood of their own hatching These were Cromwel's best Cards whereof he had a very great number in the Army and some in the House whereof he himself was thought one though he were nothing certain but applying himself always to the Faction that was strongest was of a colour like it There was in the Army a great number if not most part that aimed only at Rapine and sharing the Lands and Goods of their Enemies and these also upon the opinion they had of Cromwel's Valor and Conduct thought they could not any way better arrive at their Ends than by adhering to him Lastly In the Parliament it self though not the major part yet a considerable number were Fanaticks enow to put in doubts and cause delay in the Resolutions of the House and sometimes also by advantages of a thin
he meant to sweep the Sea of all English Shipping After this in February â—he Dutch with Van Tromp were encountred by the English under Blake and Dean near Ports-mouth and had the worst And these were all the Encounters between them this year in the narrow Seas they fought also once at Leghorn where the Dutch had the better B. I see no great odds yet on either side if there were any the English had it A. Nor did either of them e're the more incline to Peace for the Hollanders after they had sent Ambassadors into Denmark Sweeden Poland and the Hans Towns whence Tar and Cordage are usually had to signifie the Declaration of the War and to get them to their Party re-called their Ambassadors from England and the Rump without delay gave their parting audience without abating a Syllable of their former severe Propositions and presently to maintain the War for the next year laid a Tax upon the People of 120000 l. per Mâ—nsem B. What was done in the mean time at home A. Cromwel was now quarrelling the last and greatest Obstacle to his Design the Rump and to that end there came out dayly from the Army Petitions Addresses Remonstrances and other such Papers some of them urging the Rump to dissolve themselves and make way for another Parliament to which the Rump unwilling to yield and not daring to refuse determin'd for the end of their sitting the 5th of November 1654. but Cromwel meant not to stay so long In the mean time the Army in Ireland was taking Submissions and granting Transportations of the Irish and condemning who they pleased in a High Court of Justice erected there for that purpose Among those that were executed was hang'd Sir Phelim Oneale who first began the Rebellion in Scotland the English built some Citadels for the bridling that stubborn Nation and thus ended the year 1652. B. Come we then to the year 1653. A. Cromwel wanted now but one step to the end of his Ambition and that was To set his Foot upon the Neck of this Long-Parliament which he did April the 23th of this present year 1653. a time very seasonable for though the Dutch were not master'd yet they were much weakned and what with Prizes from the Enemy and squeezing the Royal Party the Treasury was pretty full and the Tax of 120000 l. a Month began to come in all which was his own in right of the Army Therefore without any more ado attended by the Major Generals Lambert and Harrison some other Officers and as many Souldiers as he thought fit he went to the Parliament House and dissolv'd them turn'd them out and lock'd up the Doors and for this Action he was more applauded by the people than for any of his Victories in the War and the Parliament men as much scorn'd and derided B. Now that there was no Parliament who had the Supreme Power A. If by Power you mean the right to Govern no body had it if you mean the Supreme Strength it was clearly in Cromwel who was obeyed as General of all the Forces in England Scotland and Ireland B. Did he pretend that for Title A. No but presently after he intended a Title which was this That he was necessitated for the defence of the Cause for which at first the Parliament had taken up Arms that is to say Rebell'd to have recourse to extraordinary Actions You know the pretence of the Long-Parliament's Rebellion was Salus Populi the safety of the Nation against a dangerous Conspiracy of Papists and a malignant Party at home and that every man is bound as far as his Power extends to procure the safety of the whole Nation which none but the Army were able to do and the Parliament had hitherto neglected was it not then the Generals duty to do it had he not therefore right for that Law of Salus Populi is directed only to those that have Power enough to defend the People that is to them that have the Supreme Power B. Yes certainly he had as good a Title as the long-Long-Parliament but the long-Long-Parliament did represent the People and it seems to me that the Soveraign Power is essentially annexed to the Representative of the People A. Yes if he that makes a Representative that is in the present case the King do call them together to receive the Soveraign Power and he divest himself thereof otherwise not nor was ever the lower house of Parliament the Representative of the whole Nation but of the Commons only nor had that House the Power to oblige by their Acts or Ordinances any Lord or any Priest B. Did Cromwel come in upon the only Title of Salus Populi For this is a Title very few understand A. His way was to get the Supreme Power conferr'd upon him by Parliament therefore he call'd a Parliament and gave it the Supreme Power to the end that they should give it to him again was not this witty First therefore he published a Declaration of the Causes why he dissolv'd the Parliament the sum whereof was That instead of endeavouring to promote the good of Gods people they endeavour'd by a Bill then ready to pas to recruit the House and perpetuate their own Power Next he constituted a Council of State of his own Creatures to be the Supreme Autority of England but no longer than till the next Parliament should be call'd and met Thiâ—dly he summon'd 142 persons such as he himself or his trusty Officers made choice of the greatest part of whom were instructed what to do obscure persons and most of them Phanaticks though stil'd by Cromwel Men of approv'd fidelity and honâ—sty to these the Council of State surrender'd the Supreme Authority and not long after these men surrendred it to Cromwel July the fourth this Parliament met and chose for their Speaker one Mr. Rous and called themselves from that time forward The Parliament of England But Cromwel for the more surety constituted also a Council of State not of such petty Fellows as most of these were but of himself and of his principal Officers These did all the business both publick and private making Ordinances and giving Audience to Foreign Ambassadors But he had now more Enemâ—es than before Harrison who was the Head of the Fifth monarchy-men laying down his Commission did nothing but anâ—mate his Party against him for which afterward he was Imprisoned This little Parliament in the mean time were making of Acts so ridiculous and displeasing to the People that it was thought he chose them on purpose to bring all ruling Parliaments into contempt and Monarchy again into credit B. What Acts were these A. One of them was That all Marriages should be made by a Justice of Peace and the Banes asked three several days in the next Market None were forbidden to be Married by a Minister but without a Justice of Peace the Marriage was to be void so divers wary Couples to be sure of one another howsoever
that point you will be better informed in the pursuit of this Narration B. But I desire to know first the several grounds of the Pretences both of the Pope and of the Presbyterians by which they claim a Right to govern us as they do in chief and after that from whence and when crept in the Pretences of that Long Parliament for a Democrasie A. As for the Papists they challenge this Right from a Text in Deut. 7. and other like Texts according to the Old Latin Translation in these words And he that out of Pride shall refuse to obey the Commandment of that Priest which shall at that time Minister before the Lord thy God that man shall by the Sentence of the Judge be put to Death And because the Jews were the people of God then so is all Christendom the People of God now they infer from thence that the Pope whom they pretend to be High Priest of all Christian People ought also to be obeyed in all his Decrees by all Christians upon pain of Death Again whereas in the New Testament Christ saith all Power is given unto me in Heaven and in Earth go therefore and teach all Nations and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and teach them to observe all those things that I have commanded you from thence they infer that the Command of the Apostles was to be obeyed and by consequence the Nations were bound to be governed by them and especially by the Prince of the Apostles St. Peter and by his Successors the Popes of Rome B. For the Text in the Old Testament I do not see how the Commandment of God to the Jews to obey their Priests can be interpreted to have the like force in the Case of the other Nations Christian more then upon Nations Unchristian For all the World are Gods People unless we also grant that a King cannot of an Infidel be made Christian without making himself subject to the Laws of that Apostle of Priest or Minister that shall convert him The Jews were a peculiar people of God a Sacerdotal Kingdom and bound to no other Law but what first Moses and afterwards every High Priest did go and receive immediately from the Mouth of God in Mount Sinai in the Tabernacle of the Ark and in the Sanctum Sanctorum of the Temple And for the Text in St. Matthew I know the words in the Gospel are not Go teach but Go and make Disciples and that there is a great difference between a Subject and a Disciple and between teaching and commanding and if such Texts as these must be so interpreted why do not Christian Kings lay down their Titles of Majesty and Soveraignty and call themselves the Popes Lieutenants But the Doctors of the Romish Church seem to decline that Title of Absolute Power in their distinction of Power Spiritual and Temporal but this Distinction I do not vell understand A. By Spiritual Power they mean the Power to determine Points of Faith and to be Judges in the Inner Court of Conscience of Moral Duties and of a Power to punish those men that obey not their Precepts by Ecclesiastical Censure that is by Excommunication and this Power they say the Pope hath immediately from Christ without dependance upon any King or Sovereign Assemblies whose Subjects they be that stand Excommunicate But for the Power Temporal which consists in judging and punishing those actions that are done against the Civil Law they say they do not pretend to it directly but onely indirectly that is to say as far forth as such actions tend to the hinderance or advancement of Religion in ordine ad spiritualia B. What Power then is left to Kings and other Civil Sovereigns which the Pope may not pretend to be in ordine ad Spiritualia A. None or very little and this Power the Pope not onely pretends to in all Christendom but some of his Bishops also in their several Diocesses jure Divino that is immediately from Christ without deriving it from the Pope B. But what if a man refuse Obedience to this pretended Power of the Pope and his Bishops what harm can Excommunication do him especially if he be a Subject of another Sovereign A. Very great harm for by the Popes or Bishops signification of it to the Civil Power he shall be punished sufficiently B. He were in an ill case then that adventured to write or speak in defence of the Civil Power that must be pun shed by him whose Rights he defended like Uzza that was slain because he Would needs unbidden put forth his hand to keep the Ark from falling But what if a whole Nation should revolt from the Pope at once what effect could Excommunication have upon the Nation A. Why they should have no more Mass said by any of the Pope's Priests Besides the Pope would have no more to with them but cast them off and so they would be in the same case as if a Nation should be cast by their King and left to be governed by themselves or whom they would B. This would not so much be taken for a punishment to the People as to the King and therefore when a Pope Excommunicates a whole Nation me-thinks he rather Excommunicates himself than them But I pray you tell me what were the Rights the Pope pretended to in Kingdoms of other Princes A. First and exemption of all Priests Friers and Monks in Criminal Causes from the Cognizance of Civil Judges Secondly Collation of Benefices on whom he pleased Native or Stranger and Exaction of Tenths Fruits and other Payments Thirdly Appeals to Rome in all Causes where the Church could pretend to be concern'd Fourthly To be the Supreme Judge concerning the Lawfulness of Marriage i e. concerning the Hereditary Succession of Kings and to have the Cognizance of all Causes concerning Adultery and Fornication B. Good a Monopoly of Women A. Fifthly a power of absolving Subjects of their Duties and of their Oaths of Fidelity to their Lawful Sovereigns when the Pope should think fit for the extirpation of Heresie B. This power of absolving Subjects of their obedience as also that other of being Judges of Manners and Doctrine is as absolute a Sovereignty as if possible to be and consequently there must be two Kingdoms in one and the same Nation and so no man be able to know which of his Masters he must obey A. For my part I should rather obey that Master that had the Right of making Laws and of inflicting Punishments than him that pretendeth onely to a right of making Canons that is to say Rules and no Right of Co-action or otherwise Punishing but by Excommunication B. But the Pope pretends also that his Canons are Laws and for punishing can there be a greater than Excommunication supposing it true as the Pope saith it is that he that dies Excommunicate is damn'd which supposition it seems you believe not else you
for an University of Learning there was none erected till that time though it be not unlikely there might be then some that taught Philosophy Logick and other Arts in divers Monasteries the Monks having little else to do but to study After some Colledges were built to that purpose it was not long before many more were added to them by the Devotion of Princes and Bishops and other wealthy men and the Discipline therein was confirmed by the Popes that then were and abundance of Scholars sent thither by their friends to study as to a place from whence the way was open and easie to preferment both in Church and Commonwealth The profit the Church of Rome expected from them and in effect received was the maintenance of the Pope's Doctrine and of his Authority over Kings and their Subjects by School Divines who striving to make good many points of Faith incomprehensible and calling in the Philosophy of Aristotle to their assistance wrote great Books of School Divinity which no man else nor they themselves were able to understand as any man may conceive that shall consider the writing of Peter Lombard or Scotus or of him that wrote Commentaries upon him or of Suarez or of any other School-Divines of later times which kind of Learning nevertheless hath been much admired by two sorts of men otherwise prudent enough The one of which sorts were those that were already Devoted and really affectionate to the Roman Church for they believed the Doctrine before but admired the Arguments because they understood them not and yet found the Conclusions to their mind The other sort were negligent men that had rather admire with others than take the pains to examine so that all sorts of people were fully resolved that both the Doctrine was true and the Pope's Authority no more then that was due to him I see that a Christian King or State how well soever provided he be of Money and Arms where the Church of Rome hath such authority will have but a hard match of it for want of men for their Subjects will hardly be drawn into the Field and fight with courage against their Consciences A. It is true that great rebellions have been raised by Church-men in the Pope's quarrel against Kings as in England against King John and in France against King Henry the Fourth wherein the Kings had a more considerable part on their sides than the Pope had on his and shall always have so if they have Money for there are but few whose Consciences are so tender as to refuse Money when they want it but the great mischief done to Kings upon pretence of Religion is when the Pope gives power to one King to Invade another B. I wonder how King Henry the Eighth so utterly extinguished the Authority of the Pope in England and that without any Rebellion at home or any Invasion from abroad A. First The Priests Monks and Friars being in the height of their Power were now for the most part grown insolent and licentious and thereby the force of their Arguments was now taken away by the scandal of their lives which the Gentry and men of good education easily perceived and the Parliament consisting of such persons were therefore willing to take away their Power and generally the Common people which for a long time had been in love with Parliaments were not displeased therewith Secondly The Doctrine of Luther beginning a little before was now by a great many men of the greatest Judgments so well received as that there was no hope to restore the Pope to his Power by Rebellion Thirdly The Revenue of the Abbies and all other Religious Houses falling hereby into the Kings hands and by him being disposed of to the most eminent Gentlemen in every County could not but make them do their best to confirm themselves in the possession of them Fourthly King Henry was of a nature quick and severe in the Punishing of such as should be the first to oppose his designs Lastly As to Invasion from abroad if the Pope had given the Kingdom to another Prince it had been in vain for England is another manner of Kingdom than Navarre besides the French and Spanish Forces were imployed at that time one against another and though they had been at leasure they would have found perhaps no better success than the Spaniard found afterwards in 1588. Nevertheless notwithstanding the Insolence Avarice and Hypocrisie of the then Clergy and nothwithstanding the Doctrine of Luther if the Pope had not provoked the King by endeavouring to cross his Marriage with his second Wife his Authority might have remained in England till there had risen some other quarrel B. Did not the Bishops that then were and had taken an Oath wherein was among other things that they should defend and maintain the Regal Rights of St. Peter the words are Regalia Sancti Petri which nevertheless some have said are Regulas Sancti Petri that is to say St. Peter's Rules or Doctrine and that the Clergy afterwards did read it being perhaps written in Short-hand by a mistake to the Pope's advantage Regalia Did not I say the Bishops oppose that Act of Parliament against the Pope's against the taking of the Oath of Supremacy A. No I do not find the Bishops did many of them oppose the King for having no power without him it had been great imprudence to provoke his Anger there was besides a Controversiy in those times between the Pope and the Bishops most of which did maintain that they exercised their Jurisdiction Episcopal in the Right of God as immediately as the Pope himself did exercise the same over the whole Church and because they saw that by this Act of the King in Parliament they were to hold their power no more of the Pope and never thought of holding it of the King they were perhaps better content to let the Act of Parliament pass in the reign of King Edward the Sixth the Doctrine of Luther had taken such great root in England that they threw out a great many of the Pope's new Articles of Faith with Queen Mary succeeding him restored again together with all that had been abolished by King Henry the Eighth saving that which could not be restored the Religious Houses and the Bishops and Clergy of King Henry were partly burnt for Hereticks partly fled and partly recanted and they that fled betook themselves to those places beyond Sea where the Reformed Religion was either protected or not prosecuted who after the decease of Queen Mary returned again to favour and preferment under Queen Elizabeth that restored the Religion of her Brother King Edward and so it had continued to this day excepting the interruption made in this late Rebellion of the Presbyterians and other Democratical men But thus the Romish Religion were now cast out by the Law yet there were abundance of people and many of them of the Nobility that still retained the Religion of their Ancestors
he deprived himself thereby not only of the Power to Levy Money without their consent but also of his ordinary Revenue by Custom of Tonnage and Poundage and of the Liberty to put into Custody such men as he thought likely to disturb the Peace and raise Sedition in the Kingdom As for the men that did this 't is enough to say they were the Members of the last Parliament and of some other Parliaments in the beginning of the Reign of King Charles I. and the end of the Reign of King James To name them all is not necessary farther then the Story shall require most of them were Members of the House of Commons some few also of the Lords But all such as had a great Opinion of their sufficiency in Politicks which they thought was not sufficiently taken notice of by the King B. How could the Parliament when the King had a great Navy and a great number of Train'd Souldiers and all the Magazines of Ammunition in his power be able to begin the War A. The King had these things in his Right but that signifies little when they had the Custody of the Navy and Magazines and with them all the Trained Souldiers and in a manner all the Subjects were by the Preaching of Presbyterian Ministers and the seditious whispering of false and ignorant Politians made his Enemies and when the King could have no Money but what the Parliament should give him which you may be sure should not be enough to maintain his Legal Power which they intended to take from him And yet I think they would never have adventured into the Field but for that unlucky business of imposing upon the Scots who were all Presbyterians our Book of Common Prayer for I believe the English would never have taken well that the Parliament should make War upon the King upon any provocation unless it were in their own defence in case the King should first make War upon them and therefore it behoved them to provoke the King that he might do something that might look like Hostility It hapned in the year 1637. that the King by advice as it is thought of the Arch-bishop of Canterbury sent down a Book of Common Prayer into Scotland not differing in substance from ours nor much in words besides the putting of the word Presbyter for that of Minister commanding it to be used for Conformity to this Kingdom by the Ministers there for an ordinary of Divine Service this being read in the Church at Edinburgh caused such a Tumult there that he that read it had much adoe to escape with his life and gave occasion to the greatest part of the Nobility and others to enter by their own Authority into a Covenant amongst themselves to put down Episcopacy without consulting the King which they presently did animated thereto by their own Confidence or by assurance from some of the Democratical English-men that in former Parliaments had been the greatest opposers of the King's Interest that the King would not be able to raise an Army to chastise them without calling a Parliament which would be sure to favour them for the thing which those Democraticals chiefly then aimed at was to force the King to call a Parliament which he had not done of ten years before as having found no help but hindrance to his designs in the Parliaments he had formerly called Howsoever contrary to their expectation by the help of his better affected Subjects of the Nobility and Gentry he made a shift to raise a sufficient Army to have reduced the Scots to their former obedience if it had proceeded to Battle And with this Army he marched himself into Scotland where the Scotch Army was also brought into the Field against him as if they meant to fight but then the Scotch sent to the King for leave to treat by Commissioners on both sides and the King willing to avoid the destruction of his own Subjects condescended to it the issue was peace and the King thereupon went to Edinburgh and passed an Act of Parliament there to their Satisfaction B. Did he not then confirm Episcopacy A. No but yeilded to the abolishing of it but by the means the English were crossed in their hope of a Parliament but the Democraticals formerly opposers of the King's Interest ceased not to endeavour still to put the two Nations into a War to the end the King might buy the Parliaments help at no luss a price than Soveraignty it self B. But what was the Cause that the Gentry and Nobility of Scotland were so averse from Episcopacy For I can hardly believe that their Consciences were extraordinarily tender nor that there were so very great Divines as to know what was the true Church Discipline established by our Saviour and his Apostles nor yet so much in love with their Ministers as to be over-ruled by them in the Government either Ecclesiastical or Civil for in their lives they were just as other men are Pursuers of their own Interests and Preferments wherein they were not more opposed by the Bishops than by their Presbyterian Ministers A. Truly I do not know I cannot enter into other mens thoughts farther than I am led by the consideration of Human Nature in general Bet upon this consideration I see First That men of Ancient Wealth and Nobility are not apt so to brook that poor Sâ—hollars should as they must when they are made Bishops be their Fellows Secondly That from the emulation of Glory between the Nations they be willing to see their Nation afflicted with Civil War and might hope by aiding the Rebels here to acquire some Power over the English at least so far as to establish here the Presbyterian Discipline which was also one of the points they afterwards openly demanded Lastly They might hope for in the War some great sum of Money as a reward of their assistance bendes great Booty which they afterwards obtained but whatsoever was the cause of their hatred to Bishops the pulling them down was not all they-timed at if it had now that Episcopacy was abolished by Act of Parliament they would have rested satisfied which they did not for after the King was returned to London the English Presbyterians and Democraticals by whose favour they had put down Bishops in Scotland thought it reason to have the assistance of the Scotch for the pulling down the Bishops in England and in order thereunto they might perhaps deal with the Scots secretly to rest unsatisfied with that pacification which they were before contented with howsoever it was not long after the King was returned to London they sent up to some of their friends at Court a certain Paper containing as they apprehended the Articles of the said pacification a false and scandalous Paper which was by the King's Command burnt as I
have heard publickly and so both parties returned to the same Condition as they were in when the King went down with his Army B. And so there was a great deal of Money cast away to no purpose but you have not told me who was General of that Army A. I told you the King was there in person he that commanded under him was the Earl of Arundel a man that wanted not either Valour or Judgement but to proceed to Battle or to Treaty was not in his power but in the King 's B. He was a man of a most Noble and Loyal Family and whose Ancestors had formerly given a great overthrow to the Scots in their own Countrey and in all likelihood he might have given them the like now if they had Fought A. He might indeed but it had been but a kind of Superstition to have made him General upon that account though many Generals heretofore have been chosen for the good luck of their Ancestors in the like occasions In the long War between Athens and Sparta a General of the Athenians by Sea won many Victories against the Spartans for which cause after his death they chose his Son for General with ill success The Romans that conquered Carthage by the valour and conduct of Scipio when they were to make War again in Africk against Caesar chose another Scipio a man valiant and wise enough but he perished in the Employment And to come home to our own Nation the Earl of Essex made a fortunate Expedition to Cadiz but his Son sent afterwards to the same place could do nothing 'T is a foolish Superstition to hope that God has entailed Success in War upon a Nation or Family B. After the pacification broken what succeeded next A. The King sent Duke Hamilton with Commission and Instructions into Scotland to call a Parliament there but all was to no purpose and to use all the means he could otherwise but the Scots were resolved to raise an Army and to enter into England to deliver as they pretended their grievances to his Majesty in a Petition because the King they said being in the hands of evil Counsellors they could not otherwise obtain their right but the truth is they were otherwise animated to it by the Democratical and Presbyterian English with a promise of reward and hope of Plunder Some have said that Duke Hamilton also did rather encourage them to than deter them from the Expedition as hoping by the disorder of the two Kingdoms to bring to pass that which he had been formerly accused of to endeavour to make himself King of Scotland but I take this to have been a very uncharitable Censure upon so little ground to judge so uncharitably of a man that afterwards lost his life in seeking to procure the liberty of the King his Master This resolution of the Scots to enter into England being known the King wanting Money to raise an Army against them was now as his Enemies here wished constrained to call a Parliamene to meet at Westminster the 13. of April 1640. B. Me-thinks a Parliament of England if upon any occasion should furnish the King with Money now in a War against the Scots out of an inveterate disaffection to that Nation that had always taken part with their Enemies the French and which always esteemed the Glory of England an abatement of their own A. 'T is indeed commonly seen that Neighbour-Nations envy one anothers Honour and that the less potent bears the greater malice but that hinders them not from agreeing in those things which their common ambition leads them to And therefore the King found for the War but the less help from this Parliament and most of the Members thereof in their ordinary discourses seemed to wonder why the King should make a War upon Scotland and in that Parliament sometime called them their Brethren the Scots but instead of taking the King's business which was the raising of Money into their consideration they fell upon the redressing of Grievances and especially such way of levying Money as in the last intermission of Paâ—liament the King had been forced to use such as were Ship-Money Knighâ—hood and such other Vails as one may call them of the Regal Office which Lawyers had found justifiable by the antâ—ent Records of the Kingdom Besides they fell upon the actions of divers Ministers of State though done by the Kings own Command and Warrant insomuch that before they were called the Money which was necessary for this War if they had given Money as they never meant to do had come too late It is true there was mention of a sum of Money to be given the King by way of bargain for relinquishing his right to Ship-money and some other of his Prerogatives but so seldom and without determining any Sum that it was in vain for the King to hope for any success and therefore on the Fifth of May following he dissolved them B. Where then had the King Money to raise and pay his Army A. He was forced the second time to make use of the Nobility and Gentry who contributed some more some less according to the greatness of their Estates but amongst them all they made up a very sufficient Army B. It seems then that the same men that crossed his business in the Parliament now out of Parliament advanced it all they could what was the reason of that A. The greatest part of the Lords in Parliament and the Gentry throughout England were more affected to Monarchy than to a Popular Government but so as not to endure to hear of the King 's absolute Power which made them in time of Parliament easily to condescend to abridge it and bring the Government to mixt Monarchy as they called it wherein the absolute Sovereignty should be divided between the King the House of Lords and the House of Commons B. But how if they cannot agree A. I think they never thought of that but I am sure they never meant the Sovereignty should be wholly either in one or both Houses besides they were loth to desert the King when he was invaded by Foreigners for the Scots were esteemed by them as a Foreign Nation B. It is strange to me that England and Scotland being but one Island and their Language almost the same and being governed by one King should be thought Foreigners to one another The Romans were Masters of many Nations and to oblige them the more to obey the Edicts of the Law sent unto them by the City of Rome they thought fit to make them all Romans and out of divers Nations as Spain Germany Italy and France to advance some that they thought worthy even to be Senators of Rome and to give every one of the common People the priviledge of the City of Rome by which they were protected from the contumelies of other Nations where they resided Why were not the Scotch and English in like manner united into one People A. King James at
Common-wealth of the Jews was not the Priesthood in a Family namely the Levites as well as the Priesthood of Aegypt Did not the High-Priest give Judgment by the Brest-plate of Vrim and Thummim Look upon the Kingdom of Assyria and the Philosophers and Chaldeans had not they Lands and Cities belonging to their Family even in Abrabam's time who dwelt you know in Vr of the Chaldeans Of these the same Author says thus The Chaldeans are a Sect in Politicks like to that of the Aegyptian Priests for being ordained for the service of the Gods they spend the whole time of their life in Philosophy being of exceeding great reputation in Astrology and pretending much also to Prophecy foretelling things to come by Purifications and Sacrifices and to find out by certain Incantations the preventing of harm and the bringing to pass of good They have also skill in Augury and in the Interpretation of Dreams and Wonders nor are they unskilful in the Art of Foretelling by the Inwards of Beasts sacrificed and have their Learning not of the Greeks for the Philosophy of the Chaldeans goes to their family by Tradition and the Son receives it from his Father From Assyria let us pass into India and see what esteem the Philosophers had there The whole multitude says Diodorus of the Indians is divided into seven parts whereof the first is the Body of the Philosophers for number the least but for eminency the first for they are free from Taxes and as the are not Masters of others so are no others Masters of them By private men they are called to the Sacrifices and to the care of the Burials of the Dead as being thought most beloved of the Gods and skilful in the Doctrine concerning-Hell and for this Imployment receive Gifts and Honours very considerable They are also of great use to the people of India for being taken at the beginning of the year in the great Assembly they foretell them of great Drouths great Rains also of Winds and of Sicknesses and of whatsoever i profitable for them to know beforehand The same Author concerning the Laws of the Aethiopians saith thus The Laws of the Aethiopians seem very different from those of other Nations and especially about the Election of their Kings for the Priests propound some of the chief men among them named in a Catalogue and when the God which according to a certain Custom is carried about to Feastings does accept of him the Multitude Elect for their King and presently adore and honour him as a God put into the Government by Divine Providence The King being chosen he has the manner of his life limited to him by the Laws and does all other things according to the custom of the Country neither rewarding nor punishing any man otherwise than from the beginning is Establish'd amongst them by Law nor use they to put any man to death though he be condemn'd to it but to send some Officer to him with a Token of Death who seeing the Token goes presently to his own house and kills himself presently after Bat the strangest thing of all is that which they do concerning the Death of their Kings For the Priests that live in Meroe and spend their time about the worship and honour of the Gods and are in greatest Authority when they have a mind to it send a Messenger to the King to bid him dye for that the Gods have given such order and that the Commandments of the Immortals are not by any means to be neglected by those that are by nature Mortal using also other speeches to him which men of simple Judgment that have not reason enough to dispare against those unnecessary commands as being educated under an old and undelible â—â—lom are 〈◊〉 to admit of therefore in former times the Kings did obey the Priests not as mastered by force and Arms but as having their reason mastered by superstition But in the time of Ptolomy the second Ergamenes King of the Aethiopians having had his breeding in Philosophy after the manner of the Greeks being the first that durst dispute their power took heart as befitted a King came with Soldiers to a place called Abaton where was then the Golden Temple of the Aethiopians killed all the Priests abolished the Custom and rectified the Kingdom according to his will B. Though they that were kill'd were most damnable Impostors yet the Act was cruel A. It was so but were not the Priests cruel to cause their Kings whom a little before they adored as Gods to make away themselves The King kill'd them for the safety of his person they him out of Ambition or love of Change The King's Act may be coloured with the good of his People the Priests had no pretence against their Kings who were certainly very godly or else would never have obeyed the command of the Priests by a Messenger unarmed to kill themselves Our late King the best King perhaps that ever was you know was murdered having been first persecuted by War at the Incitement of Presbyterian Ministers who are therefore guilty of the Death of all that fell in that War which were I believe in England Scotland and Ireland near one hundred thousand persons Had it not been much better that those seditious Ministers which were not perhaps a thousand had been all kill'd before they had Preached It had been I confess a great Massacre but the killing of a hundred thousand is a greater B. I am glad the Bishops were out at this business as ambitious as some say they are it did not appear in that business for they were Enemies to them that were in it A. But I intend not by these Quotations to commend either the Divinity nor the Philosophy of those Heathen people but to shew only what the Reputation of those Sciences can effect among the people For their Divinity was nothing but Idolatry and their Philosophy excepting tho knowledge of the Aegyptian Priests and from them the Chaldeans had gotten by long Observation and Study in Astronomy Geometry and Arithmetick very little and that in great part abused in Astrology and Fortune-telling whereas the Divinity of the Clergy in this Nation now considered apart from the mixture that has been introduced by the Church of Rome and in part retained here of the babling Philosophy of Aristotle and other Greeks that has no Affinity with Religion and serves only to breed Disaffection Dissention and finally Sedition and Civil War as we have lately found by dear experience in the Differences between the Presbyterians and Episcopals is the true Religion But for these Differences both Parties as they were in Power not only suppressed the Tenets of one another but also whatsoever Doctrine look'd with an ill Aspect upon their Interest and consequently all true Philosophy especially Civil and Moral which can never appear propitious to Ambition or to an Exemption from Obedience due to the Soveraign Power After the King had accus'd the Lord Kimbolton
a Member of the Lords House and Hollis Haslerig Hampden Prinn and Stroud five Members of the Lower House of High Treason and after the Parliament had Voted out the Bishops from the House of Peers they pursued especially two things in their Petitions to His Majesty the one was that the King would declare who were the persons that advised him to go as he did to the Parliament-House to apprehend them and that he would leave them to the Parliament to receive condign punishment and this they did to stick upon His Majesty the dishonour of Deserting his Friends and betraying them to his Enemies The other was that he would allow a Guard out of the City of London to be commanded by the Earl of Essex for which they pretended they could not else sit in safety which pretence was nothing but an upbraiding of His Majesty for coming to Parliament better accompanied than ordinary to seize the said five sedicious Members B. I see no reason in petitioning for a Guard they should determine it to the City of London in particular and the Command by name to the Earl of Essex unless they meant the King should understand it a Guard against himself A. Their meaning was that the King should understand it so and as I verily believe they meant he should take it as an affront and the King himself understanding it so denied to grant it though he were willing if they could not otherwise be satisfied to command such a Guard to wait upon them as he would be responsible for to God Almighty Besides this the City of London petition'd the King put upon it no doubt by some Member of the Lower House to put the Tower of London into the hands of persons of Trust meaning such as the Parliament should approve of And so appoint a Guard for the safety of His Majesty and the Parliament This method of bringing Petitions in a Tumultuary manner by great multitudes of Clamorous people was ordinary with the House of Commons whose Ambition could never have been served by way of Prayer and Request without extraordinary terror After the King had waved the prosecution of the five Members but denied to make known who had advised Him to come in person to the House of Commons they questioned the Attorney-General who by the King's command had Exhibited the Articles against them and Voted him A Breaker of the Priviledge of Parliament And no doubt had made him feel their Cruelty if he had not speedily fled the Land About the end of January they made an Order of both Houses of Parliament to prevent the going over of Popish Commanders into Ireland not so much fearing that as that by this the King Himself choosing his Commanders for that Service might aid Himself out of Ireland against the Parliament But this was no great matter in respect of a Petition they sent His Majesty about the same time that is to say about the Twenty seventh or Twenty eighth of January 1641. wherein they desired in effect the absolute Soveraignty of England though by the name of Soveraignty they challeng'd it not whil'st the King was living for to the end that the fears and dangers of this Kingdom might be removed and the mischievous designs of those who are Enemies to the Peace of it might be prevented they pray that His Majesty would be pleased to put forthwith First The Tower of London Secondly All other Forts Thirdly The whole Militia of the Kingdom into the hands of such Persons as should be recommended to him by both the Houses of Parliament And this they style a necessary Petition B. Were there really any such fears and dangers generally conceived here Or did there appear any Enemies at that time with such designs as are mentioned in the Petition A. Yes but no other fear of danger but such as discreet and honest men might justly have of the designs of the Parliament it self who were the greatest Enemies to the Peace of the Kingdom that could possibly be 'T is also worth observing that this Petition began with these words Most Gracious Sovereign so stupid they were as not to know that he that is Master of the Militia is Master of the Kingdom and consequently is in possession of a most absolute Sovereignty The King was now at Windsor to avoid the Tumults of the Common People before the Gates at Whitehall together with the Clamors and and Affronts there the Ninth of February after he came to Hampton Court and thence went to Dover with the Queen and the Princess of Orange his Daughter where the Queen with the Princess of Orange embarked for Holland but the King returned to Greenwich whence he sent for the Prince of Wales and the Duke of York and so went with them towards York B. Did the Lorâ—s join with the Commons in this Petition for the Militia A. It appears so by the Title but I believe they durst not but do it the House of Commons took them but for a Cypher Men of Title onely without real Power but they were very much mistaken for the House of Commons never intended they should be sharers in it B. What Answer made the King to this Petition A. That when He shall know the Extent of Power which is intended to be established in those persons whom they desire to be the Commanders of the Militia in the several Counties and likewise to what time it shall be limited that no Power shall be Executed by His Majesty alone without the advice of Parliament then he will declare that for the securing them from all Dangers or Jealousies of any then His Majesty will be content to put into all the places both Forts and Militia in the several Counties such persons as both the Houses of Parliament shall either approve or recommend unto him so that they declare before unto His Majesty the names of the persons whom they approve or recommend unless such persons shall be nam'd against whom he shall have just and unquestionable Exceptions B. What Power For what Time And to whom did the Parliament grant concerning the Militia A. The same Power which the King had before planted in his Lieutenants and his Deputy-Lieutenants in the several Counties and without other limitation of time but their own pleasure B. Who were the Men that had this Power A. There is a Catalogue of them Printed they are very many and most of them Lords nor is it necessary to have them nam'd for to name them is in my opinion to brand them with the mark of Disloyalty or of Folly When they had made a Catalogue of them they sent it to the King with a new Petition for the Militia Also presently after they sent a Message to His Majesty praying Him to leave the Prince at Hampton Court but the King granted neither B. Howsoever it was well done of them to get Hostages if they could of the King before He went from them A. In the mean time to raise Mony
for the reducing of Ireland the Parliament invited Men to bring in Mony by way of Adventure according to these Propositions First That two Millions and five hundred thousand Acres of Land in Ireland should be assigned to the Adventurers in this proportion For an Adventure of 200 l. 1000 Acres in Vlster 300 l. 1000 Acres in Conaught 450 l. 1000 Acres in Munster 600 l. 1000 Acres in Lemster All according to English Measure and consisting of Meadow arable and profitable Pasture Bogs Woods and Barren Mountains being cast in over and above Secondly A Revenue was reserv'd to the Crown from 1 d. to 3 d. on every Acre Thirdly That Commissions should be sent by the Parliament to erect Mannors settle Wastes and Commons maintain preaching Ministers to create Corporations and to regulate Plantations The rest of the Propositions concern only the times and manner of payment of the Sums subscribed by the Adventurers and to those Propositions His Majesty assented but to the Petition for the Militia His Majesty denied His Assent B. If He had not I should have thought it a great Wonder What did the Parliament after this A. They sent Him another Petition which was presented to Him when He was at Theobalds in his way to York wherein they tell him plainly That unless He be pleased to assure them by those Messengers them sent that He would speedily apply His Royal Assent to the satisfaction of their former Desires they shall be forc'd for the Safety of his Majesty and his Kingdoms to dispose of the Militia by the Authority of both Houses c. They Petition'd His Majesty also to let the Prince stay at St. James's or some other of His Majesties Houses near London They tell him also That the Power of Raising Ordering and Disposing of the Militia cannot be granted to any Corporation without the Authority and Consent of Parliament And those Parts of the Kingdom that have put themselves into a posture of Defence have done nothing therein but by direction of both Houses and what is justifiable by the Laws of this Kingdom B. What Answer made the King to this A. It was a putting of themselves into Arms and under Officers such as the Parliament should approve of Fourthly They Voted that His Majesty should be again desir'd that the Prince might continue about London Lastly They Voted a Declaration to be sent to His Majesty by both the Houses wherein they accuse His Majesty of a design of altering Religion though not directly Him but them that counsel'd Him whom they also accus'd of being the Inviters and Fomenters of the Scots War and Framers of the Rebellion in Ireland And upbraid the King again for accusing the Lord Kimbolton and the Five Members and of being privy to the purpose of bringing up His Army which was rais'd against the Scots to be employ'd against the Parliament To which His Majesty replied from New-market Whereupon it was Resolv'd by both Houses That in this Case of extream Danger and of His Majesties Refusal the Ordinance agreed upon by both Houses for the Militia doth oblige the People by the Fundamental Laws of this Kingdom And also that whosoever should execute any Power over the Militia by colour of any Commission of Lieutenancy without Consent of both Houses of Parliament shall be accounted a Disturber of the Peace of the Kingdom Whereupon His Majesty sent a Message to both Houses from Huntingdon Requiring Obedience to the Laws Established and Prohibiting all Subjects upon pretence of their Ordinance to Execute any thing concerning the Militia which is not by those Laws warranted Upon this the Parliament Vote a standing to their former Votes as also That when the Lords and Commons in Parliament which is the Supreme Court of Judicature in the Kingdom shall declare what the Law of the Land it to have this not only questioned but contradicted is a high Breach of the Priviledge of Parliament B. I thought that he that makes the Law ought to declare what the Law is for what is it else to make a Law but to declare what it is so that they have taken from the King not only the Militia but also the Legislative Power A. They have so But I make account the Legislative Power and indeed all Power possible is contain'd in the Power of the Militia After this they seize such Mony as was due to His Majesty upon the Bill of Tunnage and Poundage and upon the Bill of Subsidies that they might disable him every way they possibly could They sent Him also many other contumelious Messages and Petitions after His coming to York amongst which one was That whereas the Lord Admiral by indisposition of Body could not command the Fleet in Person He would be pleased to give Authority to the Earl of Warwick to supply his place when they knew the King had put Sir John Penington in it before B. To what End did the King entertain so many Petitions Messages Declarations and Remonstrances and vouchsafe His Answers to them when He could not choose but clearly see they were resolv'd to take from Him His Royal Power and consequently His Life For it could not stand with their safety to let either Him or His Issue live after they had done Him so great Injuries A. Besides this the Parliament had at the same time a Committee residing at York to spy what His Majesty did and to inform the Parliament thereof and also to hinder the King from gaining the People of that County to His Party so that when His Majesty was Courting the Gentlemen there the Committee was Instigating of the Yeomanry against Him to which also the Ministers did very much contribute so that the King lost His opportunity at York B. Why did not the King seize the Committee into His hands or drive them out of His Town A. I know not but I believe He knew the Parliament had a greater Party than He not only in Yorkshire but also in York Towards the End of April the King upon Petition of the People of Yorkshire to have the Magazine of Hull to remain still there for the greater security of the Northern Parts thought fit to take it into his own hands He had a little before appointed Governor of the Town the Earl of Newcastle but the Townsmen having been already corrupted by the Parliament refused to receive him but refus'd not to receive Sir John Hotham appointed to be Governor by the Parliament The King therefore coming before the Town Guarded only by a few of His own Servants and a few Gentlemen of the Country thereabouts was deny'd Entrance by Sir John Hotham that stood upon the Wall for which Act he presently caused Sir John Hotham to be Proclaim'd Traytor and sent a Message to the Parliament requiring Justice to be done upon the said Hotham and that the Town and Magazine might be delivered into His hands To which the Parliament made no Answer but instead thereof published another Declaration in
and that all persons cited by either House of Parliament may appear and abide the Censure of Parliament XIV That the General Pardon offered by his Majesty be granted with such Exceptions as shall be advised by both Houses of Parliament B. What a spightful Article is this All the rest proceeded from Ambition which many times well-natur'd men are subject to but this proceeded from an inhumane and devilish cruelly A. XV. That the Forts and Castles be put under the Command of such Persons as with the Approbation of the Parliament the King shall appoint XVI That the extraordinary Guards about the King be discharged and for the future none raised but according to the Law in case of actual Rebellion or Invasion B. Methinks these very Propositions sent to the King are an actual Rebellion A. XVII That his Majesty enter into a more strict Alliance with the United Provinces and other Neighbour Protestant Princes and States XVIII That his Majesty be pleased by Act of Parliament to clear the Lord Kimbolton and the Five Members of the House of Commons in such manner as that future Parliaments may be secur'd from the consequence of evil Precedent XIX That his Majesty be pleased to pass a Bill for restraining Peers made hereafter from sitting or voting in Parliament unless they be admitted with consent of both Houses of Parliament These Propositions granted they promise to apply themselves to regulate his Majesties Revenue to his best advantage and to settle it to the support of his Royal Dignity in Honour and Plenty and also to put the Town of Hull into such hands as his Majesty shall appoint with consent of Parliament B. Is not that to put it into such hands as His Majesty shall appoint by the consent of the Petitioners which is no more than to keep it in their hands as it is Did they want or think the King wanted common sense so as not to perceive that their promise herein was worth nothing A. After the sending of these Propositions to the King and His Majesties refusal to grant them they began on both sides to prepare for War the King raising a Guard for his Person in York-shire and the Parliament thereupon having Voted That the King intended to make War upon his Parliament gave Order for the Mustering and Exercising the People in Arms and published Propositions to Invite and Encourage them to bring in either ready Money or â—late or to promise under their hands to maintain certain numbers of Horse Horsemen and Arms for the Defence of the King and Parliament meaning by King as they had formerly declar'd not his Person but his Laws promising to repay their Money with Interest of Eight Pound in the Hundred and the Value of their Plate with Twelve Pence the Ounce for the Fashion On the other side the King came to Nottingham and there did set up his Standard Royal and sent out Commissioners of Array to call those to him which by the ancient Laws of England were bound to serve in the Wars Upon this occasion there passed divers Declarations between the King and Parliament concerning the Legality of this Array which are too long to tell you at this time B. Nor do I desire to hear any Mooting about this Question for I think that general Law of Salus Populi and the Right of defending himself against those that had taken from him the Sovereign Power are sufficient to make Legal whatsoever he should do in order to the recovery of his Kingdom or the punishing of the Rebels A. In the mean time the Parliament raised an Army and made the Earl of Essex General thereof by which Act they declar'd what they meant formerly when they Petition'd the King for a Guard to be Commanded by the said Earl of Essex And now the King sends out his Proclamations forbidding Obedience to the Orders of the Parliament concerning the Militia and the Parliament send out Orders against the Executions of the Commissions of Array hitherto though it were a War before yet there was no Blood shed they shot at one another nothing but Paper B. I understand now how the Parliament destroy'd the Peace of the Kingdom and how easily by the help of Seditious Presbyterian Ministers and of ambitious ignorant Orators they reduced the Government into Anarchy but I believe it will be a harder task for them to bring in Peace again and settle the Government either in themselves or in any other Governor or form of Government for granting that they obtain the Victory in this War they must be beholding for it to the Valor good Conduct or Felicity of those to whom they give the Command of their Armies especially to the General whose good success will without doubt bring with it the love and admiration of the Soldiers so that it will be in his power either to take the Government upon himself or to place it where himself thinks good In which Case if he take it not to himself he will be thought a Fool and if he do he shall be sure to have the Envy of his subordinate Commanders who will look for a share either in the present Government or in the Succession to it for they will say Has he obtain'd this Power by his own without our Danger Valor and Council And must we be his Slaves whom we have thus rais'd Or is not there as much Justice on our side against him as was on his side against the King A. They will and did insomuch that the reason why Cromwel after he had gotten into his own hands the absolute Power of England Scotland and Ireland by the Name of Protector did never dare to take upon him the Title of King nor was ever able to settle it upon his Children his Officers would not suffer it as pretending after his death to succeed him nor would the Army consent to it because he had ever declared to them against the Government of a Single Person B. But to return to the King What Means had he to pay What Provision had he to Arm nay Means to Levy an Army able to resist the Army of the Parliament maintained by the great Purse of the City of London and Contributions of almost all the Towns Corporate in England and furnished with Arms as fully as they could require A. 'T is true the King had great disadvantages and yet by little and little he got a considerable Army with which he so prospered as to grow stronger every day and the Parliament weaker till they had gotten the Scots with an Army of 21000 Men to come into England to their assistance but to enter into the particular Narrative of what was done in the War I have not now time B. Well then we will talk of that at next meeting B. VVE left at the Preparations on both sides for War which when I considered by my self I was mightily puzled to find out what possibility there was for the King to equal the Parliament in
and Woods and whatsoever was remaining unpaid of any Subsidy formerly granted Him and the Tunnage and Poundage usually received by the King besides the profit of the Sequestration of great persons whom they pleas'd to Vote Delinquents and the profits of the Bishops Lands which â—troversie understood not the Reasons of either Party and for those that by Ambition were once set upon the Enterprize of changing the Government they cared not much what was Reason and Justice in the Cause but what Strength they might procure by reducing the multitude with Remonstrances from the Parliament-House or by Sermons in the Churches and to their Petitions I would not have had any answer at all more than this That if they would disband their Army and put themselves upon his Mercy they should find Him more Gracious than they expected A. That had been a gallant answer indeed if it had proceeded from Him after some extraordinary great Victory in Battel or some extraordinary assurance of a Victory at last in the whole War B. Why what could have hapned to Him worse than at length He suffered notwithstanding His gentle answer and all His reasonable Declarations A. Nothing but who knew that B. Any Man might see that He was never like to be restor'd to His Right without Victory and such His Statutes being known to the People would have brought to His assistance many more hands than all the arguments of Law or force of Eloquence couched in Declarations and other Writings could have done by far and I wonder what kind of Men they were that hindered the King from taking this Resolution A. You may know by the Declarations themselves which are very long and full of Quotations of Records and of Cases formerly Reported that the Penners of them were either Lawyers by Profession or such Gentlemen as had the ambition to be thought so Besides I told you before that those which were then likeliest to have their counsel asked in this business were averse to absolute Monarchy as also to absolute Democracy or Aristocracy all which Governments they esteemed Tyranny and were in love with Monarchy which they us'd to praise by the name of mixt Monarchy though it were indeed nothing else but pure Anarchy and those Men whose Pens the King most us'd in these Controversies of Law and Politics were such if I have not been misinformed as having been Members of this Parliament had declaim'd against Ship-money and other Extra-Parliamentary Taxes as much as any but when they saw the Parliament grow higher in their demands than they thought they would have done went over to the King's Party B. Who were those A. It is not necessary to name any Man seeing I have undertaken only a short Narration of the Follies and other Faults of Men during this trouble but not by naming of persons to give you or any man else occasion to esteem them the less now the faults on all sides have been forgiven B. When the Business was brought to this height by levying of Soldiers and seizing on the Navy Arms and other Provisions on both sides that no Man was so blind as not to see they were in an estate of War one against another why did not the King by Proclamation or Message according to his undoubted Right Dissolve the Parliament and thereby diminish in some part the Authority of their Levies and of other their unjust Ordinances A. You have forgotten that I told you that the King Himself by a Bill that He passed at the same time when He passed the Bill for the Execution of the Earl of Strafford had given them Authority to hold the Parliament till they should by consent of both Houses dissolve themselves If therefore He had by any Proclamation or Message to the Houses dissolv'd them they would to their former Defamations of His Majesties actions have added this That He was a Breaker of His Word and not only in Contempt of Him have continued their Session but also have made advantage of it to the increase and strengthning of their own Party B. Would not the King 's raising of an Army against them be interpreted as a purpose to dissolve them by force And was it not as great a breach of promise to scatter them by force as to dissolve them by Proclamation Besides I cannot conceive that the passing of that Act was otherwise intended than conditionally so long as they should not ordain any thing contrary to the Sovereign Right of the King which condition they had already by many of their Ordinances broken and I think that even by the Law of Equity which is the unalterable Law of Nature a man that has the Sovereign Power cannot if he would give away the right of any thing which is necessary for him to retain for the good Government of his Subjects unless he do it in express words saying That he will have the Sovereign Power no longer for the giving away that which by consequence only draws the Sovereignty along with it is not I think a giving away of the Sovereignty but an error such as works nothing but an invalidity in the Grant it self And such was the King's passing this Bill for the continuing of the Parliament as long as the Two Houses pleas'd But now that the War was resolv'd on on both sides what needed any more dispute in writings A. I know not what need they had but on both sides they thought it needful to hinder one another as much as they could from levying of Soldiers and therefore the King did set forth Declarations in Print to make the people know that they ought not to obey the Officers of the new Militia set up by the Ordinance of Parliament and also to let them see the Legality of His own Commissions of Array and the Parliament on their part did the like to justifie to the people the said Ordinance and to make the Commission of Array appear unlawful B. When the Parliament were Levying of Soldiers was it not lawful for the King to Levy Soldiers to defend Himself and His Right though there had been no other Title for it but His own preservation and that the name of Commission of Array had never been heard of A. For my part I think there cannot be a better Title for War than the defence of a Man 's own Right but the People at that time thought nothing lawful for the King to do for which there was not some Statute made by Parliament For the Lawyers I mean the Judges of the Courts of Westminster and some few others though but Advocates yet of great Reputation for their skill in the Common Laws and Statutes of England had infected most of the Gentry of England with their Maxims and Cases prejudg'd which they call Precedents and made them think so well of their own knowledge in the Law that they were glad of this occasion to shew it against the King and thereby to gain a Reputation with the Parliament of being good
for the Militia of the Parliament was my Lord Fairfax My Lord of Newcastle took from the Parliament Tadcaster in which were a great part of the Parliaments Forces for that County and had made himself in a manner Master of all the North. About this time that is to say in February the Queen landed at Burlington and was conducted by my Lord of Newcastle and the Marquis of Montross to York and not long after to the King Divers other little Advantages besides these had the King's Party of the Parliaments in the North. There hapned also between the Militia of the Parliament the Commission of Array in Staffordshire under my Lord Brook for the Parliament and my Lord of Northampton for the King great contention wherein both these Commanders were slain for my Lord Brook besieging Lichfield-Close was kill'd with a shot notwithstanding which they gave not over the Siege till they were Masters of the Close But presently after my Lord of Northamâ—ton besâ—â—ed 〈◊〉 again for the King which to relieve Sir William Brereton and Sir John Gell advanced towards Lichfield and were met at Hopton-heath by the Earl of Northampton and routed The Earl himself was slain but his Forces with Victory return'd to the Siege again and shortly after seconded by Prince Rupert who was then abroad in that Country carried the place These were the chief Actions of this year 1642. wherein the King's Party had not much the worse B. But the Parliament had now a better Army insomuch that if the Earl of Essex had immediately followed the King to Oxford not yet well fortified he might in all likelihood have taken it for he could not want either Men or Ammunition whereof the City of London which was wholly at the Parliaments devotion had store enough A. I cannot judge of that but this is manifest considering the estate the King was in at his first marching from York when he had neither Money nor Men nor Arms enough to put him in hope of Victory that this year take it altogether was very prosperous B. But what great Folly or Wickedness do you observe in the Parliaments Actions for this first year A. All that can be said against them in that point will be excus'd with the pretext of War and come under one Name of Rebellion saving that when they summoned any Town it was in the Name of the King and Parliament The King being in the contrary Army and many times beating them from the Siege I do not see how the right of War can justifie such Impudence as that But they pretended that the King was always virtually in the Two Houses of Parliament making a distinction between his Person Natural and Politique which made the Impudence the greater besides the folly of it For this was but an University Quibble such as Boys make use of in maintaining in the Schools such Tencts as they cannot otherwise defend In the end of this year they solicited also the Scots to enter England with an Army to suppress the power of the Earl of Newcastle in the North which was a plain Confession that the Parliament Forces were at this time inferior to the King 's and most men thought that if the Earl of Newcastle had then marched Southward and joined his Forces with the King 's that most of the Members of Parliament would have fled out of England In the beginning of 1643. the Parliament seeing the Earl of Newcastle's power in the North grown formidable sent to the Scots to hire them to an Invasion of England and to complement them in the mean time made a Covenant among themselves such as the Scots before had made against Episcopacy and demolished Crosses and Church-windows such as had in them any Images of Saints throughout all England Also in the middle of the year they made a Solemn League with the Nation which was called The Solemn League and Covenant B. Are not the Scots as properly to be called Foreigners as the Irish seeing then they persecuted the Earl of Strafford even to death for advising the King to make use of Irish Forces against the Parliament with what face could they call in a Scotch Army against the King A. The King's Party might easily here have discern'd their design to make themselves absolute Masters of the Kingdom and to dethrone the King Another great Impudence or rather a Bestial Incivility it was of theirs That they Voted the Queen a Traytor for helping the King with some Ammunition and English Forces from Holland B. Was it possible that all this could be done and Men not see that Papers and Declarations must be useless And that nothing could satisfie them but the Deposing of the King and setting up of themselves in his place A. Yes very possible for who was there of them though knowing that the King had the Sovereign Power that knew the Essential Rights of Sovereignty They dreamt of a mixt Power of the King and the Two Houses That it was a divided Power in which there could be no Peace was above their understanding therefore they were always urging the King to Declarations and Treaties for fear of subjecting themselves to the King in an absolute obedience which increased the hope and courage of the Rebels but did the King little good for the People either understand not or will not trouble themselves with Controversies in writing but rather by his compliance by Messages go away with an opinion That the Parliament was likely to have the Victory in the War Besides seeing that the Penners and Contrivers of those Papers were formerly Members of the Parliament and of another mind and now revolted from the Parliament because they could not bear that sway in the House which they expected men were apt to think they believed not what they wrote As for Military Actions to begin at the Head Quarters Prince Rupert took Brinningram a Garison of the Parliaments In July after the King's Forces had a great Victory over the Parliaments near the Devizes on Roundway-down where they took 2000 Prisoners four Brass Peeces of Ordnance 28 Colours and all their Baggage And shortly after Bristol was surrendred to Prince Rupert for the King and the King himself marching into the West took from the Parliament many other considerable places But this good Fortune was not a little allay'd by his besieging of Glocester which after it was reliev'd to the last gasp was reliev'd by the Earl of Essex whose Army was before greatly wasted but now recruited with Train'd Bands and Apprentices of London B. It seems not only by this but also by many Examples in History That there can hardly arise a long or dangerous Rebellion that has not some such overgrown City with an Army or two in its belly to foment it A. Nay more those great Capital Cities when Rebellion is upon pretence of Grievances must needs be of the Rebel Party because the Grievances are for Taxes to which Citizens that is Merchants whose profession
towards Worcester This made them to divide again and the Earl to go into the West and Waller to pursue the King By this means it so sell out that both their Armies were defeated for the King turn'd upon Waller routed him at Copredy-Bridge took his Train of Artillery and many Officers and then presently followed the Earl of Essex into Cornwal where he had him at such advantage that the Earl himself was fain to escape in a small Boat to Plymouth his Horse broke through the King's Quarters by night but the Infantry were all fore'd to lay down their Arms and upon conditions never more to bear Arms against the King were permitted to depart In October following was fought a second and sharp Battel at Newbery for this Infantry making no Conscience of the Conditions made with the King being now come towards London as far as Basingstoke had Arms put again into their hands to whom some of the Trained Bands being added the Earl of Essex had suddenly so great an Army that he attempted the King again at Newbery and certainly had the better of the day but the night parting them had not a complete Victory And it was observed here that no part of the Earl's Army fought so keenly as they who had laid down their Arms in Cornwal These were the most important Fights in the year 1644 and the King was yet as both himself and others thought in as good a condition as the Parliament which despair'd of Victory by the Commanders then us'd therefore they voted a new modelling of the Army suspecting the Earl of Essex though I think wrongfully to be too much a Royalist for not having done so much as they look'd for in this second Battel at Newbery The Earls of Essex and Manchester perceiving what they went about voluntarily laid down their Commissions and the House of Commons made an Ordinance That no Member of either House should enjoy any Office or Command Military or Civil With which oblique blow they shook off those that had hitherto serv'd them too well and yet out of this Ordinance they excepted Oliver Cromwel in whose Conduct and Valour they had very great confidence which they would not have done if they had known him as well then as they did afterwards and made him Lieutenant-General In the Commission to the Earl of Essex there was a Clause for Preservation of His Majesty's Person which in this new Commission was left out though the Parliament as well as the General were as yet Presbyterians B. It seems the Presbyterians also in order to their ends would fain have had the King murdered A. For my part I doubt it not For a Rightful King living an usurping Power can never be sufficiently secured In this same year the Parliament put to death Sir John Hotham and his Son for tampering with the Earl of Newcastle about the Rendition of Hull And Sir Alexander Carew for endeavouring to deliver up Plymouth where he was Governour for the Parliament And the Archbishop of Canterbury for nothing but to please the Scots For the General Article of going about to subvert the Fundamental Laws of the Land was no Accusation but only soul words They then also voted down the Book of Common-Prayer and ordered the use of a Directory which had been newly compos'd by an Assembly of Presbyterian Ministers They were also then with much ado prevailed with for a Treaty with the King at Vxbridge where they remitted nothing of their former demands The King had also at this time a Parliament at Oxford consisting of such discontented Members as had lest the Houses at VVestminster but sew of them had changed their old principles and therefore that Parliament was not much worth Nay rather because they endeavoured nothing but Messages and Treaties that is to say defeating the Soldiers hope of benefit by the War they were thought by most men to do the King more hurt than good The year 1645 was to the King very unfortunate for by the loss of one great battel he lost all he had formerly gotten and at length his life The new model'd Army after consultation whether they should lay Siege to Oxford or march Westward to the relief of Taunton then besieged by the Lord Goring and desended by Blake famous afterward for his Actions at Sea resolv'd for Taunton leaving Cromwel to attend the motions of the King though not strong enough to hinder him The King upon this advantage drew his Forces and Artillery out of Oxford This made the Parliament to call back their General Fairfax and order him to besiege Oxford The King in the mean time relieved Chester which was besieged by Sir VVilliam Brereton and coming back took Leicester by force a place of great importance and well provided of Artillery and Provision Upon this success it was generally thought that the King's party was the stronger The King himself thought so and the Parliament in a manner confest the same by commanding Fairfax to rise from the Siege and endeavour to give the King battel for the Successes of the King and the treacherous divisions growing now among themselves had driven them to rely upon the fortune of one day in which at Naseby the King's Army was utterly overthrown and no hope left him to raise another therefore after the battel he went up and down doing the Parliament here and there some shrewd turns but never much increasing his number Fairfax in the mean time first recovered Leiâ—ester and then marching into the West subdued it all except only a few places forcing with much ado my Lord Hopton upon honourable conditions to disband his Army and with the Prince of VVales to pass over to Scilly whence not long after they went to Paris In April 1646 General Fairfax began to march back to Oxford in the mean time Rainsborough who besieged VVoodstock had it surrendered The King therefore who was now also returned to Oxford from whence VVoodstock is but six miles not doubting but that he should there by Fairfax be besieged and having no Army to relieve him resolved to get away disguised to the Scotch Army to Newâ—rk and thither he came the 4th of May and the Scotch Army being upon remove homewards carried him with them to Newcastle whither he came May the 13th B. Why did the King trust himself with the Scots They were the first that rebell'd They were Presbyterians i. e cruel Besides they were indigent and consequently might be suspected would sell him to his Enemies for money And lastly They were too weak to defend him or keep him in their Country A. What could he have done better For he had in the Winter before sent to the Parliament to get a Pass for the Duke of Richmond and others to bring them propositions of Peace it was denied he sent again it was denied again Then he desired he might come to them in person this also was denied He sent again and again to the same purpose but instead
prov'd otherwise for the Colonel sent to his Masters of the Parliament to receive their Orders concerning him This going into the Isle of Wight was not likely to be any part of Cromwel's Design who neither knew whither nor which way he would go nor had Hammond known any more than other men if the Ship had come to the appointed place in due time B. If the King had escaped into France might not the French have assisted him with Forces to recover his Kingdom and so frustrated the designs both of Cromwel and all other the Kings Enemies A. Yes much just as they assisted his Son our present most gracious Soveraign who two years before fled thither out of Cornwal B. 'T is methinks no great policy in Neighbouring Princes to favour so often as they do one anothers Rebels especially when they rebel against Monarchy it self they should rather first make a League against Rebellion and afterwards if there be no remedy right one against another Nor will that serve the turn among Christian Soveraigns till Preaching be better lookt to whereby the Interpretation of a Verse in the Hebrew Greek or Latine Bible is oftentimes the cause of Civil War and the deposing and assassinating of Gods Anointed and yet converie with those Divinity Disputers as long as you will you will hardly find one in a hundred discreet enough to be employed in any great Affairs either of War or Peace It is not the Right of the Soveraign though granted to him by every mans consent expresly that can inable a Subject to do his Office it is the obedience of the Subject and then by and by to cry out as some Ministers did in the Pulpit To your Tents O Israel Common people know nothing of right or wrong by their own meditation they must therefore be taught the greunds of their Duty and the reasons why Calamities ever follow Disobedience to their lawful Soveraigns But to the contrary our Rebels were publickly taught Rebellion in the Pulpits and that there was no sin but the doing of what the Preachers forbad or the â—mitting of what they advis'd But now the King was the Parliaments Prisoner why did not the Presbyterians advance their own Interest by restoring him A. The Parliament in which there were more Presbyterians yet than Independents might have gotten what they would of the King during his life if they had not by an unconscionable and sottish Ambition of structed the way to their Ends They sent him four Propesitions to be signed and past by him as Acts of Parliament telling him when these were granted they would send Commissioners to treat with him of any other Articles First The Propositions are these That the Parliament should have the Militia and power of levying Money to maintain it for twenty years and after that term the exerciss thereof to return to the King in case the Parliament think the safety of the Kingdom concern'd in it B. This first Article takes from the King the Militia and consequently the whole Soveraignty for ever A. The second was That the King should justifie the proceedings of the Parliament against himself and declare void all Oaths and Declarations made by him against the Parliament B. This was to make him guilty of the War and of all the Blood spilt therein A. The third was To take away all Titles of Honour conferred by the King since the Great Seal was carried to him in May 1642. The fourth was That the Parliament should Adjourn themselves when and to what place and for what time they pleas'd These Propositions the King resus'd to grant as he had reason but sent others of his own not much less advantagious to the Parliament and desir'd a Personal Treaty with the Parliament for the settling of the Peace of the Kingdom but the Parliament denying them to be sufficient for that purpose voted that there should be no more Addresses made to him nor Messages receiv'd from him but they would settle the Kingdom without him And this they voted partly upon the Speeches and Menaces of the Army-Faction then present in the House of Commons whereof one advised these three Points 1. To secure the King in some In-land Castle with Guards 2. To draw up Articles of Impeachment against him 3. To lay him by and settle the Kingdom without him Another said that his denying the four Bills was the denying Protection to his Subjects and that therefore they might deny him subjection and added that till the Parliament forsook the Army the Army would never soi sake the Parliament This was threatning Last of all Cromwel himself told them it was now expected that the Parliament should govern and defend the Kingdom and not any longer let the people expect their safety from a man whose heart God had hardened nor let those that had so well defended the Parliament be left afterward to the rage of an irreconcilable Enemy lest they seek their safety some other way This again was threatning as also laying his hand upon his Sword when he spake it And hereupon the Vote of Non-Addresses was made an Ordinance which the House would afterward have recalled but were forc'd by Cromwel to keep their word The Scotch were displeas'd with it partly because their Brethren the Presbyterians had lost a great deal of their Power in England and partly also because they had sold the King into their hands The King now published a passionate Complaint to his People of this hard dealing with him which made them pity him but not yet rise in his behalf B. Was not this think you the true time for Cromwel to take possession A. By no means there were yet many Obstacles to be removed he was not General of the Army the Army was still for a Parliament the City of London discontented about their Militia the Scots expected with an Army to rescue the King his Adjutators were Levellers and against Monarchy who though they had helped him to bring under the Parliament yet like Dogs that are easily taught to fetch and nor easily taught to render would not make him King so that Cromwel had these businesses following to overcome 1. To be Generalissimo 2. To remove the King 3. To suppress all Insurrections 4. To oppose the Scots And Lastly To dissolve the present Parliament Mighty businesses which he could never promise himself to overcome therefore I cannot believe he then thought to be King but only by serving the strongest Party which was alwayes his main policy to proceed as far as Fortune and that would carry him B. The Parliament were certainly no less foolish than wicked in deserting thus the King before they had the Army at a better Command than they had A. In the beginning of 1648. the Parliament gave Commission to Philip Earl of Pembroke then made Chancellour of Oxford together with some of the Doctors there as good Divines as he to purge the University by vertue whereof they turn'd out all such as were
taken and not long after sent to London but Cromwel marched to Edenburrough and there by the help of the Faction which was contrary to Hamilton's he made sure not to be hindred in his Designs the first whereof was to take away the King's life by the hand of the Parliament whilest these things passed in the North the Parliament Cromwel being away came to it self and recalling their Vote of Non-Addresses sent to the King new Propositions somewhat but not much easier than the former and upon the King's Answer to them they sent Commissioners to treat with him at Neaport in the Isle of Wight where they so long dodged with him about Trisles that Cromwel was come to London before they had done to the Kings destruction for the Army was now wholly at the Devotion of Cromwel who set the Adjutators on work to make a Remonstrance to the House of Commons wherein they require 1. That the King be brought to Justice 2. That the Prince and Duke of York be summon'd to appear at a day appointed and proceeded with according as they should give satisfaction 3. That the Parliament settle the future Government and set a reasonable period to their own sitting and make certain future Parliaments Annual or Biennial 4. That a competent number of the Kings chief Instruments be executed and this to be done both by the House of Commons and by a General agreement of the people testified by their Subscriptions Nor did they stay for an Answer but presently set a Guard of Soldiers at the Parliament House Door and other Soldiers in Westminster-Hast suffering none to go into the House but such as would serve their turns all others were frighted away or made Prisoners and some upon divers Quarrels suspended About ninety of them because they had refused to vote against the Scots and others because they had voted against the Vote of Non-Addresses and the rest were a House for Cromwel The Phanaticks also in the City being countenanced by the Army pack a new Common-Council whereof any forty was to be above the Mayor and their first work was to frame a Petition for Justice against the Xing which Tichboures the Mayor involving the City in the Regicide delivered to the Parliament At the same time with like violence they took the King from Newport in the Isle of Wight to Hurst Castle till things were ready for His Tryal the Parliament in the mean time to avoid Perjury by an Ordinance declar'd void the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance and presently after made another to bring the King to his Tryal B. This is a piece of Law that I understood not before that when many men swear singly they may when they are Assembled if they please absolve themselves A. The Ordinance being drawn up was brought into the House where after three several Readings it was Voted That the Lords and Commons of England Assembled in Parliament do declare That by the Fundamental Laws of the Realm it is Treason in the King of England to levy War against the Parliament And this Vote was sent up to the Lords and they denying their consent the Commons in Anger made another Vote That all Members of Committees should proceed and act in any Ordinance whether the Lords concurr'd or no and that the People under God are the Original of all just Power and that the House of Commons have the Supreme-Power of the Nation and that whatsoever the House of Commons Enacted is Law All this passed nemine contradicente B. These Propositions fight not only against a King of England but against all the Kings of the World It were good they thought on 't but yet I believe that under God the Original of all Laws was in the People A. But the People for them and their heirs by consent and Oaths have long ago put the Supreme Power of the Nation into the hands of their Kings for them and their Heirs and consequently into the hands of this King their known and lawful heir B. But does not the Parliament represent the People A. Yes to some purposes as to put up Petitions to the King when they have leave and are griev'd but not to make a grievance of the Kings Power Besides the Parliament never represents the People but when the King calls them Is it to be imagined that he calls a Parliament to depose himself Put the case every County and Burrough should have given for a Benevolence a sum of Money and that every County meeting in their County Court or else-where and that every Burrough in their Town-Hall should have chosen certain men to carry their several sums respectively to the Parliament had not these men represented the whole Nation B. Yes no doubt A. Do you think the Parliament would have thought it reasonable to be called to an account by this Representative B. No sure and yet I must confess the Case is the same A. This Ordinance contained First a Summary of the Charge against the King in substance this That not content with the Incroachments of his Predecessors upon the freedom of the People he had design'd to set up a Tyrannical Power and to that end had rais'd and maintain'd in the Land a Civil War against the Parliament whereby the Country hath been miserably wasted the Publick Treasure exhausted thousands of people murdered and infinite other mischiefs committed Secondly A Constitution passed of a High Court of Justice that is of a certain number of Commissioners of whom any twenty had power to try the King and proceed to Sentence according to the Merit of the Cause and see it speedily executed The Commissioners met on Saturday January 20. in Westminster-Hall and the King was brought before them sitting in a Chair He heard the Charge read but denied to plead to it either Guilty or not Guilty till he should know by what lawful Authority he was brought thither The President told him that the Parliament affirm'd their own Authority and the King persevered in his refusal to plead though many words passed between him and the President yet this is the sum of all on Monday January 22. the Court met again and the Sollicitor moved that if the King persisted in denying the Authority of the Court the Charge might be taken pro confesso but the King still denyed their Authority They met again January 23. and then the Sollicitor moved the Court for Judgment whereupon the King was requir'd to give his Final Answer which was again a denyal of their Authority Lastly They met again January 27. where the King then desir'd to be heard before the Lords and Commons in the Painted Chamber and promising after that to abide the Judgment of the Court the Commissioners retir'd for half an hour to consider of it and then returning caused the King again to be brought to the Bar and told him that what he propos'd was but another denyal of the Courts Jutisdiction and that if he had no more to say they
would proceed to Judgment Then the King answering that he had no more to say the President began a long Speech in justification of the Parliaments Proceedings producing the Examples of many Kings kill'd or depos'd by wicked Parliaments Ancient and Modern in England Scotland and other parts of the World All which he endeavoured to justifie from this only Principle that the People have the Supreme Power and the Parliament is the People This Speech ended the Sentence of Death was read and the same upon Tuesday after January the 30. executed at the Gate of his own Palace of White-Hall He that can delight in reading how villanously he was used by the Souldiers between the Sentence and Execution may go to the Chronicle it self in which he shall see what courage patience wisdom and goodness was in this Prince whom in their Charge the Members of that wicked Parliament styled Traytor Tyrant and Murderer The King being dead the same day they made an Act of Parliament That whereas several pretences might be made to the Crown c. it is Enacted by this present Parliament and Authority of the same that no Person shall presume to declare proclaim or publish or any way promote Charles Stuart Son of Charles late King of England commonly called Prince of Wales or any other Person to be King of England and Ireland c. B. Seeing the King was dead and his Successors barr'd by what declar'd Authority was the Peace maintain'd A. They had in their anger against the Lords formerly declar'd the Supreme Power of the Nation to be in the House of Commons and now on February the fifth they Vote the House of Lords to be useless and dangerous And thus the Kingdom was turn'd into a Democracy or rather an Oligarchy for presently they made an Act That none of those Members who were secluded for opposing the Vote of Non-Addresses should ever be re-admitted And these were commonly called the Secluded Members and the rest were by some styled a Parliament and by others a Rump I think you need not now have a Catalogue either of the Vices or of the Crimes or of the Pollies of the greatest part of them that composed the Long-Parliament than which greater cannot be in the world What greater Vices than Irreligion Hypocrisie Avarice and Cruelty which have appeared so eminently in the actions of Presbyterian Members and Presbyterian Ministers What greater Crimes than Blasphemy and killing Gods Anointed which was done by the hands of the Indipendents but by the folly and first Treason of the Presbyterians who betrayed and sold him to his Murderers Nor was it a little folly in the Lords not to see that by the taking away of the Kings Power they lost withall their own Priviledges or to think themselves either for number or judgment any way a considerable assistance to the House of Commons And for those men who had skill in the Laws it was no great sign of understanding not to perceive that the Laws of the Land were made by the King to oblige his Subjects to Peace and Justice and not to oblige himself that made them Lastly and generally all men are Fools which pull down any thing which does them good before they have set up something better in its place He that would set up Democracy with an Army should have an Army to maintain it but these men did it when those men had the Army that were resolv'd to pull it down To these follies I might add the follies of those five men which out of their reading of Tully Seneca and other Antimonarchicks think themselves sufficient Politicks and shew their discontents when they are not called to the management of the State and turn from one side to the other upon every neglect they fancy from the King or his Enemies A. YOU have seen the Rump in possession as they believ'd of the Supreme Power over the two Nations of England and Ireland and the Army their Servant though Cromwel thought otherwise serving them diligently for the advancement of his own purpose I am now therefore to shew you their proceedings B. Tell me first how this kind of Government under the Rump or Relick of a House of Commons is to be call'd A. 'T is doubtless an Oligarchy for the Supreme Authority must needs be in one man or in more if in one it is Monarchy the Rump therefore was no Monarchy if the Authority were in more than one it was in all or in sewer than all when in all it is Democraty for every man may enter into the Assembly which makes the Soveraign Court which they could not do here It is therefore manifest the Authority was in a few and consequently the State was an Oligarchy B. Is it not impossible for a people to be well Governed that are to obey more Masters than one A. Both the Rump and all other Soveraign Assemblies if they have but one Voice though they be many Men yet are they but one Person for contrary Commands cannot consist in one and the same Voice which is the Voice of the greatest part and therefore they might govern well enough if they had honesty and wit enough The first Act of the Rump was the Exclusion of those Members of the House of Commons which had been formerly kept out by Violence for the precuring of an Ordinance for the King's Tryal for these men had appear'd against the Ordinance of Non-Addresses and therefore to be excluded because they might else be an Impediment to their future Designs B. Was it not rather because in the Authority of few they thought the fewer the better both in regard of their shares and also of a nearer approach in every one of them to the Dignity of a King A. Yes certainly what was their Principal End B. When these were put out why did not the Counties and Burroughs chuse others in their Places A. They could not do that without Order from the House After this they constituted a Council of forty persons which they termed a Council of State whose Office was to execute what the Rump should command B. When there was neither King nor House of Lords they could not call themselves a Parliament for a Parliament is a meeting of the King Lords and Commons to confer together about the Businesses of the Common-Wealth With whom did the Rump confer A. Men may give to their Assembly what Name they please what signification soever such Name might formerly have had and the Rump took the Name of Parliament as most suitable to their purpose and such a Name as being Venerable among the people for many hundred years had countenanced and sweetened Subsidies and other Levies of Money otherwise very unpleasant to the Subject They took also afterwards another name which was Custodes Libertatis Angliae which Title they used only in their Writs issuing out of the Courts of Justice B. I do not see how a Subject that is tyed to the Laws can have more
plainly told them they must sit no longer Richard's Authority and business in Town being thus at an end heretir'd into the Country where within a few days upon promise of the payment of his Debts which his Fathers Funeral had made great he signed a Resignation of his Protectorship B. To whom A. To no body But after ten days cessation of the Soveraignty some of the Rumpers that were in Town together with the old Speaker Mr. William Lenihall resolv'd among themselves and with Lambert Haslerig and other Officers who were also Rumpers in all 42 to go into the House which they did and were by the Army declar'd to be the Parliament There were also in Westminster-Hall at that time about their private business some few of those whom the Army had secluded in 1648. and were called the secluded Members These knowing themselves to have been Elected by the same Authority and having the same Right to sit attempted to get into the House but were kept out by the Soldiers The first Vote of the Rump reseated was That such persons as were heretofore Members of this Parliament and have not â—â—tten since the year 1648. shall not sit in this House till farther order of the Parliament And thus the Rump recover'd their Authority May the seventh 1659. which they lost in April 1653. B. Seeing there have been so many shiftings of the Supreme Authority I pray you for memories sake repeat them briefly in time and order A. First From 1640 to 1648. when the King was murthered the Soveraignty was disputed between King Charles the First and the Presbyterian Parliament 2ly From 1648 to 1653. the Power was in that part of the Parliament which voted the Tryal of the King and declar'd themselves without King or House of Lords to have the Supreme Authority of England and Ireland For there were in the long-Long-Parliament two Factions the Presbyterian and Independent The former whereof sought only the subjection of the King not his destruction and this part is it which was called the Rump 3ly From April the 20 to July the 4 the Supreme Power was in the Hands of a Council of State constituted by Cromwel 4ly From July the 4 to December the 12 of the same year it was in the Hands of Men called unto it by Cromwel whom he termed men of Fidelity and Integrity and made them a Parliament which was called in contempt of one of the Members Barebone's Parliament 5ly From December the 12 1653 to September the 3. 1658 it was in the hands of Oliver Cromwel with the Title of Protector 6ly From September 1658 to April the twenty fifth 1659. Richard Cromwel had it as Successor to his Father 7ly From April the twenty fifth 1659. to May the seventh of the same year it was no where 8ly From May the 7th 1659. the Rump which was turn'd out of Door 1653. recovered it again and did lose it again to the Committee of Safety and again recover it and again lose it to the right Owner B. By whom and by that Art came the Rump to be turn'd out the second time A. One would think them safe enough the Army in Scotland which when it was in London had helped Oliver to pull down the Rump submitted now beg'd pardon and promis'd Obedience The Souldiers in Town had their pay mended and the Commanders every where took the old Engagement whereby they had acknowledged their Authority heretofore they also received their Commissions in the House it self from the Speaker who was Generalissimo Fleetwood was made Lieutenant-General with such and so many limitations as were thought necessary by the Rump that remembred how they had been serv'd by their General Oliver Also Henry Cromwel Lord Lieutenant of Ireland having resign'd his Commission by Command returned into England But Lambert to whom as was said Oliver had promis'd the succession and as well as the Rump knew the way to the Protectorship by Oliver's own foot-steps was resolv'd to proceed in it upon the first opportunity which presented it self presently after Besides some Plots of Royalists whom after the old fashion they again persecuted there was an Insurrection made against them by Presbyterians in Cheshire headed by Sir G. Booth one of the secluded Members they were in number about 3000 and their pretence was for a Free-Parliament There was a great talk of another Rising or endeavour to Rise in Devonshire and Coâ—â—wâ—l at the same time To suppress Sir George Booth the Rump sent down more than a sufficient Army under Lambert which quickly defeated the Cheshire party and recover'd Chester Leverpool and all the other places they had seized divers of their Commanders in and after the battel were taken Prisoners whereof Sir George Booth himself was one This exploit done Lambert before his return caressed his Soldiers with an entertainment at his own house in York-shire and got their consent to a Petition to be made to the House that a General might be set up in the Army as being unfit that the Army should be judged by any power extrinsick to it self B. I do not see that unfitness A. Nor I. But it was as I have heard an action of Sir Henry Vane's But it so much displeased the Rump that they Voted that the having of more General 's in the Army than were already setled was unnecessary burthensom and dangerous to the Common-wealth B. This was not Oliver's method for though this Cheshire Victory had been as glorious as that of Oliver's at Dunbar yet it was not the Victory that made Oliver General but the resignation of Fairfax and the proffer of it to Cromwel by the Parliament A. But Lambert thought so well of himself as to expect it therefore at his return to London he and other Officers assembling at Wallingford-house drew their Petition into form and called it a representation wherein the chief point was to have a General with many other of less importance that were added And this they represented to the House October the 4th by Major General Desborough And this so far forth awed them as to teach them so much good manners as to promise to take it presently into debate which they did and October the 12th having recovered their Spirits Voted That the Commissions of Lambert Desborough and others of the Council at Wallingford-house should be void Item That the Army should be governed by a Commission to Fleet-wood Monk Haslerig Walton Morley and Overton till Feb. the 12th following and to make this good against the Force they expected from Lambert they ordered Haslerig and Morley to issue Warrants to such Officers as they could trust to bring their Soldiers next Morning into Westminster which was done somewhat too late for Lambert had first brought his Soldiers thither and beset the House and turn'd back the Speaker which was then coming to it but Haslerig's Forces marching about St. James's Park wall came into St. Margaret's Church-yard and so both Parties looked all day one upon another
Authority upon them first A. After the Inundation of Northern People had overflowed the Western Parts of the Empire and possessed themselves of Italy the People of the City of Rome submitted themselves as well in Temporals as Spirituals to their Bishop and then first was the Pope a Temporal Prince and stood no more in so great fear of the Emperors which lived far off at Constantinople In this time it was that the Pope began by pretence of his Power Spiritual to encroach upon the Temporal Rights of all other Princes of the West and so continued gaining upon them till his Power was at the highest in that 300 years or thereabout which passed between the time of Pope Leo the 3. and Pope Innocent the 3. For in this time Pope Zachary 1. deposed Chilperick then King of France and gave the Kingdom to one of his Subjects Pepin And Pepin took from the Lombards a great part of their Territory and gave it to the Church Shortly after the Lombards having recovered their Estate Charles the Great retook it and gave it to the Church again and Pope Leo the 3. made Charles Emperor B. But what Right did the Pope there pretend for the creating of an Emperor A. He pretended the Right of being Christs Vicar and what Christ could give his Vicar might give and you know that Christ was King of all the World B. Yes as God and so he gives all the Kingdoms of the World which nevertheless proceed from the consent of People either for fear or hope A. But this Gift of the Empire was in a more special Manner in such a manner as Moses had the Government of Israel given him or rather as Joshua had it given him to go in and out before the People as the High Priest should direct him and so the Empire was understood to be given him on condition to be directed by the Pope For when the Pope invested him with the Regal Ornaments the People all cryed out Deus dat that is to say 't is God that gives it And from that time all or most of the Christian Kings do put into their Titles the words Dei gratia that is by the gift of God And their Successors use still to receive the Crown and Scepter from a Bishop 'T is certainly a very good Custom for Kings to be put in mind by whose gift they reign but it cannot from that Custom he infer'd that they receive the Kingdom by mediation from the Pope or by any other Clergy For the Popes themselves received the Papacy from the Emperor the first that ever was elected Bishop of Rome after Emperors were Christians and without the Emperors consent executed himself by Letter to the Emperor with this that the People and Clergy of Rome forced him to take it upon him and prayed the Emperor to confirm it which the Emperor did but with Reprehension of their Proceedings and prohibition of the like for the time to come the Emperor was Lotharius and the Pope Calixtus the first A. You see by this the Emperor never acknowledged this gift of God was the gift of the Pope but maintained the Popedom was the gift of the Emperor but in process of time by the negligence of the Emperor for the greatness of Kings makes them that they cannot easily descend into the obscure and narrow Mines of an ambitious Clergy they found means to make the people believe there was a Power in the Pope and Clergy which they ought to submit unto rather than to the Commands of their own King whensoever it should come into Controversy and to that end devised and decreed many new Articles of Faith to the diminution of the Authority of Kings and to the disjunction of them and their Subjects and to a closer adherence of their Subjects to the Church of Rome's Articles either not at all found in or not well founded upon the Scripture as first That it should not be lawful fur a Priest to Marry What influence could that have upon the power of Kings do you not see that by this the King must of necessity either want the Priesthood and therewith a great part of the Reverence due to him from the most Religious part of his Subjects or else want Lawful Heirs to succeed in by which means being not taken for the Head of the Church he was sure in any controversie between him and the Pope that his Subjects would be against him B. Is not a Christian King as much a Bishop now as the Heathen Kings were of old for amongst them Episcopus was a name common to all Kings is not he a Bishop now to whom god hath committed the charge of all the Souls of his Subjects both of the Laity and of the Clergy And though he be in relation to our Saviour who is the chief Pastour of Sheep yet compared to his own Subjects they are all Sheep both Laick and Clergy and he the onely Shepherd and seeing a Christian Bishop is but a Christian endued with power to govern the Clergy it follows that every Christian King is not onely a Bishop but an Archbishop and his whole Kingdom his Diocess And though it were granted that Imposition of hands were necessary for a Priest yet seeing Kings have the power of Government of the Clergy that are the Subjects even before Baptism the Baptism it self where he is received as a Christian is a sufficient Imposition of Hands so that whereas before he was a Bishop now he is a Christian Bishop A. For my part I agree with you this prohibition of Marriage to Priests came in about the time of Pope Gregory the Seventh and William the First King of England by which means the Pope had in England what with Secular and what with Regular Priests a great many lusty Batchelors at his service Secondly that Auricular Confession to a Priest was necessary to Salvation 'T is true that before that time Confession to a Priest was usual and performed for the most part by him that Confessed People And the end which the Pope had in multiplying Sermons was no other but to prop and enlarge his own Authority over all Christian Kings and States B. Within the same time that is between the time of the Emperor Charles the Great and of King Edward the Third of England began their second Policy which was to bring Religion into an Art and thereby to maintain all their Degrees of the Roman Church by Disputation not onely from the Scriptures but also from the Philosophy of Aristotle both Moral and Natural and to that end the Pope exhorted the said Emperor by Letters to erect Schools of all kinds of Literature and from thence began the institution of Universities for not long after the Universities began in Paris and in Oxford It is true that there were Schools in England before that time in several places for the instruction of Children in the Latin Tongue that is to say in the Tongue of the Church but
who as they were not much molested in points of Conscience so they were not by their own Inclination very troublesom to the Civil Government but by the secret practice of Jesuites and other Emissaries of the Roman Church they were made less quiet than they ought to have been and some of them to venture upon the most horrid Act that ever had been heard of before I mean upon the Gunpowder Treason and upon that account the Papists in England have been looked upon as men that would not be sorry for any disorders here that might possibly make way to the restoring of the Pope's Authority and therefore I named them for one of the distempers of the State of England in the time of our late King Charles B. I see that Monsieur du Plesis and Dr Morton Bishop of Durham writing of the progress of the Pope's Power and intituling their Books one of them The Mystery of Iniquity the other The Grand Imposture were both in the right for I believe there was never such another cheat in the World And I wonder that the Kings and States of Christendom never perceived it A. It is manifest they did perceive it How else durst they make War against the Pope and some of them take him out of Rome it self and carry him away Prisoner but if they would have freed themselves from his Tyranny they should have agreed together and made themselves every one as Henry the Eighth did Head of the Church within their own respective dominions but not agreeing they let his power continue every one hopeing to make use of it when there should be cause against his neighbour B. Now as to the other Distemper by Presbyterians How came their Power to be so great being of themselves for the most part but so many poor Scholars A. This Controversy between the Papist and Reformed Churches could not chuse but make every man to the best of his power examine by the Scriptures which of them was in the right and to that end they were translated into Vulgar Tongue Whereas before the Translation of them was not allowed nor any man to read them but such as had express License so to do for the Pope did concerning the same that Moses did concerning Mount Sinai Moses suffered no man to go up to it to hear God speak or gaze upon him but such as he himself took with him and the Pope suffered none to speak with God in the Scriptures that had not some part of the Pope's Spirit in him for which he might be trusted B. Certainly Moses did therein very wisely and according to God's own Commandment A. No doubt of it and the event it self hath made it since appear so for after the Bible was Translated into English every Man nay every Boy and Wench that could read English thought they spoke with God Almighty and understood what he said when by a certain Number of Chapters a Day they had read the Scriptures once or twice over the Reverence and Obedience due to the Reformed Church here and to the Bishops and Pastors therein was cast off and every man became a Judge of Religion and an Interpreter of the Scriptures to himself B. Did not the Church of England intend it should be so What other end could they have in recommending the Bible to me if they did not mean I should make it the Rule of my Actions else they might have kept it though open to themselves to me Sealed up in Hebrew Greek and Latin and fed me out of it in such measure as had been requisite for the Salvation of my Soul and the Churches peace A. I confess this License of Interpreting the Scripture was the cause of so many several Sects as have lain hid till the beginning of the late King's Reign and did then appear to the disturbance of the Commonwealth but to return to the Story Those persons that fled for Religion in the time of Queen Mary resided for the most part in places where the Reformed Religion was professed and governed by an Assembly of Ministers who also were not a little made use of for want of better Statesmen in points of Civil Government which pleased so much the English and Scotch Protestants that lived amongst them that at their return they wished there were the same Honour and Reverence given to the Ministry in their own Countries and in Scotland King James being then young soon with the help of some of the powerful Nobility they brought it to pass also they that returned into England in the beginning of the Reign of Queen Elizabeth endeavoured the same here but could never effect it till this last Rebellion nor without the help of the Scots and it was no sooner effected but it was defeated again by the other Sects which by the preaching of the Presbyterians and private Interpretation of Scripture were grown numerous B. I know indeed that in the beginning of the late War the Power of the Presbyterians was so very great that not only the Citizens of Londen were almost all of them at their Devotion but also the greatest part of all other Cities and Market Towns of England But you have not yet told me by what Art and what Degrees they became so strong A. It was not their own Art alone that did it but they had the conâ—urrence of a great many Gentlemen thaâ— did no less desire a Popular Government in the Civil State than these Ministers did in the Church and aâ—â— these did in the Pulpit draw the People to their Opinions and to a dislike of the Church-Government Canons and Common-Prayer-Book so did the other make them in love with Democracy by their Harangues in the Parliament and by their discourse and communication with people in the Countrey continually extolling of Liberty and inveighing against Tyranny leaving the people to collect of themselves that this Tyranny was the present Government of the State And as the Presbyterians brought with them into their Churches their Divinity from the Universities so did many of the Gentlemen bring their Politicks from thence into the Parliament but neither of them did this very boldly in the time of Q. Eliz. and though it be not likely that all of them did it out of malice but many of them out of error yet certainly the chief Leaders were ambitious Ministers and ambitious Gentlemen the Ministers envying the Authority of Bishops whom they thought less learned and the Gentlemen envying the Privy-Council whom they thought less wise than themselves For 't is a hard matter for men who do all think highly of their own Wits when they have also acquired the Learning of the University to be perswaded that they want any ability requisite for the Government of a Commonwealth especially having read the Glorious Histories and the Sententious Politicks of the Antient Popular Government of the Greeks and Romans amongst whom Kings were hated and branded with the name of Tyrants and Popular Government though no Tyrant
his first coming to the Crown of England did endeavour it but could not prevail But for all that I believe the Scotch have now as many priviledges in England as any Nation had in Rome of those which were so as you say made Romans for they are all Naturalized and have right to buy Land in England to them and their Heirs B. 'T is true of them that were born in Scotland after the time that King James was in possession of the Kingdom of England A. There be very few now that were born before But why have they a better right that were born after than they that were born before B. Because they were born Subjects to the King of England and the rest not A. Were not the rest born Subjects to King James and was not he King of England B. Yes but not then A I understand not the subtilty of the distinction but upon what Law is that distinction grounded is there any Statute to that purpose B. I cannot tell I think not but it is grounded upon Equity A. I see little equity in this that those Nations that are bound to equal obedience to the same King should not have equal Priviledges and now seeing there be so very few born before King Jame's coming in what greater priviledges had those ingrafted Romans by their Naturalization in the State of Rome or in the State of England the English themselves more than the Scotch D. Those Romans when any of them were in Rome had their voice in the making of Laws A. And the Scotch have their Parliaments wherein their assent is required to the Law there made which is as good Have not many of the Provinces of France their several Parliaments and several Constitutions yet they are all equally Natural Subjects to the King of France And therefore for my part I think they were mistaken both English and Scotch in calling one another Foreigners Howsoever that be the King had a very sufficient Army wherewith he marched towards Scotland and by that time he was come to York the Scots Army was drawn up to the Fronteers and ready to march into England which also they presently did giving out all the way that their march should be without damage to the Countrey and that their Errand was onely to deliver a Petition to the King for the redress of many pretended Injuries they had received from such of the Court whose counsel the King most followed so they passed through Northumberland quietly till they came to a Ford in the River of Tine a little above Newcastle where they found some little opposition from a party of the King's Army sent thither to stop them whom the Scots easily mastered and as soon as they were over seized on Newcastle and coming farther on upon the City of Duresme and sent to the King to desire a Treaty which was granted and the Commissioners on both sides met at Rippon the conclusion was that all should be referred to the Parliament which the King should call to meet at Westminster the third of November following in the same year 1640. And thereupon the King returned to London B. So the Armies were disbanded A. No The Scotch Army was to be defrayed by the Counties of Northumberland and Duresme and the King was to pay his own till the disbanding of both should be agreed upon in Parliament B. So in effect both the Armies were maintained at the King's Charge and the whole Controversie to be desided by a Parliament almost wholly Presbyterian and as Partial to the Scotch as themselves could have wished A. And yet for all this they durst not presently make War upon the King there was so much yet left of Reverence to him in the Hearts of People as to have made them odious if they had declared what they intended they must have some colour or other to make it be believed that the King made War first upon the Parliament And besides they had not yet sufficiently disgraced him in Sermons and Pamphlets nor removed from about him those they thought could best counsel him therefore they resolved to proceed with him like skilful hunters First to single him out by men disposed in all parts to drive him into the open field and then in case he should not seem to turn head to call that making a War against the Parliament And first They called in question such as had either Preached or written in defence of those Rights which belonging to the Crown they meant to usurp and take from the King to themselves whereupon some few Writers and Preachers were Imprisoned or forced to fly The King not protecting these they proceeded to call in question some of the King 's own Actions in his Ministers whereof they Imprison'd some and some went beyond Sea and whereas certain persons having endeavoured by Books and Sermons to raise Sedition and committed other Crimes of high Nature had therefore been censured by the Kings Council in the Star-Chamber and Imprisoned the Parliament by their own Authority to try it seems how the King and the people would take it for their Persons were inconsiderable ordered their setting at Liberty which was accordingly done with great Applause of the People that flocked about them in London in manner of a Triumph This being done without resistance the Kings Right to Ship-money B. Ship-money what 's that A. The Kings of England for the defence of the Sea had power to Tax all the Counties of England whether they were Maritine or not for the Building and Furnishing of Ships which Tax the King had then lately found cause to impose and the Parliament exclaimed against it as an oppression And one of their Members that had been Taxed but 20 Shillings mark the Oppression a Parliament-man of 500 l. a Year Land Taxed at 20 Shillings they were forced to bring it to a Tryal at Law he refusing payment and he was cast again When all the Judges of Westminster were demanded their Opinions concerning the legality of it of Twelve that there are it was judged Legal by Ten for which though they were not punished yet they were affrighted by the Parliament B. What did the Parliament mean when they did exclaim against it as illegal Did they mean it was against Statute Law or against the Judgments of Lawyers given heretofore which are commonly called Reports or did they mean it was against Equity which I take to be the same with the Law of Nature A. It is a hard matter or rather impossible to know what other men mean especially if they be crafty but sure I am Equity was not their ground for their pretence of Immunity from Contributing to the King but at their own pleasure for when they have laid the Burthen of defending the whole Kingdom and governing it upon any person whatsoever there is little Equity he should depend on others for the means of performing it or if he do they are his Soveraign not he theirs and as for
the Common Law contained in Reports they have no force but what the King gives them besides it were unreasonable that a corrupt or foolish Judge's unjust Sentence should by any time how long soever obtain the authority and force of a Law but among the Statute Laws there is one called Magna Charta or The great Charter of the Liberties of English men in which there is one Article that no man shall be destrained that is have his Goods taken from him otherwise than by the Law of the Land B. Is not that a sufficient ground for their purpose A. No that leaves us in the same doubt which you think it clears for where was the Law of the Land then Did they mean a another Magna Charta that was made by some King more ancient yet No that Statute was made not to exempt any man from payments to the publick but for securing of every man from such as abused the King's Power by surreptitious obtaining of the King's Warrants to the oppressing of those against whom he had any Suite in Law But it was conducing to the end of some rebellious Spirits in this Parliament to have it interpreted in the wrong sense and suitable enough to the understanding of the rest or most part of them to let it pass B. You make the Members of that Parliament very simple men and yet the people chose them for the wisest of the Land A. If Craft be Wisedom they were wise enough but wise as I define it is he that knows how to bring his business to pass without the assistance of Knavery and ignoble shifts by the sole strength of his good contrivance A Fool may win from a better Gamster by the advantage of false Dice and Packing of Cards B. According to your definition there be few wise men now adays such Wisedom is a kind of Gallantry that few are brought up to and most think Folly fine Cloaths great Feathers Civilty towards men that will not swallow Injuries and injury towards them that will is the present Gallantry but when the Parliament afterwards having gotten the power into their hands levied Money to their own use what said the People to that A. What else but that it was legal and to be paid as being Imposed by consent of Parliament B. I have heard often that they ought to pay what was imposed by consent of Parliament to the use of the King but to their own use never before I see by this it is easier to gull the multitude than any one man amongst them for what one man that has his Natural Judgment depraved by accident could be so easily coused in a matter that concerns his Purse had he not been passionately carried away by the rest to change of Government or rather to a liberty of every one to govern himself A. Judge then what kind of men such a multitude of Ignorant People were like to elect for the Burgesses and Knights of Shires B. I can make no other Judgment but that they who were then elected were just such as had been elected for former Parliaments and as are like to be elected for Parments to come for the Common people have been and and always will be ignorant of their duty to the Publick as never meditating any thing but their particular Interest in other things following their immediate Leaders which are either the Preachers or the most potent of the Gentlemen that dwell amongst them as Common Souldiers for the most part follow their Captains if they like them If you think the late miseries have made them wiser that will quickly be forgot and then we shall be no wiser then we were A. Why may not men be taught their Duty that is the Science of Just and Unjust as divers other Sciences have been taught from true Principles and Demonstrations and much more easily than any of those Preachers and Democratical Gent. could Rebellion and Treason B. But who can teach what none have learned or if any man hath been so singular as to have studied the Science of Justice and Equity how can he teach it safely when it is against the interest of those that are in possession of the power to hurt him A The Rules of the Just and Unjust sufficiently demonstrated and from Principles evident to the meanest capacity have not been wanting and notwithstanding the obscurity of their Author have shined not onely in this but in Foreign Countries to men of good Education but they are few in respect of the rest of men whereof many cannot read many though they can have no leisure and of them that have leisure the greatest part have their minds wholly employed and taken up by their private businesses or pleasures so that it is impossible that the multitude should ever learn their Duty but from the Pulpit and upon Holy-days but then and from thence it is that they learned their Disobedience and therefore the light of that Doctrine has been hitherto covered and kept under hereby a cloud of adversaries which no man's private reputation can break through without the Authority of the Universities but from the Universities came all those Preachers-that taught the contrary The Universities have been to this Nation as the Wooden-horse was to the Trojaus B. Can you tell me why and when the Universities here first began A. It seems for the time they began in the Reign of the Emperor Charles the Great before which time I doubt not but there were many Grammar-Schools for the Latin Tongue which was the Natural Language of the Roman Church but for Universities that is to say Schools for the Science in general and especially for Divinity it is manifest that the institution of them was recommended by the Pope's Letter to the Emperor Charles the Great and recommended farther by a Council held in his time I think at Chal. sur Saone and not long after was erected an University at Paris and the University called University Colledge at Oxford and so by degrees several Bishops Noblemen and rich men and some Kings and Queens contributing thereunto the Universities at last obtained their present splendor B. But what was the Pope's design in it A. What other design was he like to have but what you heard before the advancement of his own Authority in the Countreys where the Universities were erected there they learned to dispute for him and with unintelligible distinctions to blind mens eyes whilst they encroached upon the Rights of Kings and it was an evident argument of that design that they fell in hand with the work so quickly For the first Rector of the University of Paris as I have read some-where was Peter Lombard who first brought in to them the Learning called School-Divinity and was seconded by John Scot of Duns who lived in or near the same time whom any ingenious Reader not knowing what was the design would judge to have been the most egregious Blockhead in the world so obscure and sensless are their
as are subject to the Law or its being unconformable to Equity or Charity in all men whatsoever B. It seems you make a difference between the Ethicks of Subjects and the Ethicks of Soveraigns A. So I do The Vertue of a Subject is comprehended wholly in obedience to the Laws of the Commonwealth To obey the Laws is Justice and Equity which is the Law of Nature and consequently is Civil Law in all Nations of the World and nothing is Injustice or Iniquity otherwise then it is against the Law Likewise to obey the Law is the Prudence of a Subject for without such obedience the Commonwealth which is every Subjects safety and protection cannot subsist And though it be Prudence also in private men justly and moderately to enrich themselves yet craftily to withold from the Publick or defraud it of such part of the Wealth as is by Law required is no sign of Prudence but of want of knowledge of what is necessary for their own defence The Vertues of Soveraigns are such as tend to the maintenance of Peace at Home and to the resistance of Forreign Enemies Fortitude is a Royal Vertue and though it be necessary in such private men as shall be Soldiers yet for other men the less they dare the better it is both for the Commonwealth and for themselves Frugality though perhaps you would think it strange is also a Royal Vertue for it increases the publick stock which cannot be too great for the Publick Use nor any man too sparing of what he has in trust for the good of others Liberality also is a Royal Vertue for the Commonwealth cannot be well serv'd without Extraordinary Diligence and Service of Ministers and great Fidelity to their Soveraign who ought therefore to be incouraged and especially those that do him service in the Wars In summ all Actions or Habits are to be esteemed Good or Evil by their Causes and Usefulness in reference to the Commonwealth and not by their Mediocrity nor by their being commended for several men praise several Customes and that which is Vertue with one is blam'd by others and contrarily what one calls Vice an other calls Vertue as their present Affections lead them B. Methinks you should have placed amongst the Vertues that which in my Opinion is the greatest of all Vertues Religion A. So I have though it seems you did not observe it But whether do we Disgress from the way we were in B. I think you have not Digressed at all for I suppose your purpose was to acquaint me with the History not so much of those Actions that past in the time of the late Troubles as of their Causes and of the Counsels and Artifiâ—es by which they were brought to pass There be divers men that have written the History out of whom I might have Learned what they did and somewhat also of the Contrivance But I find little in them of it I would ask therefore since you were pleased to enter into this Discourse at my request be pleased also to inform me after my own method And for the danger of Confusion that may arise from that I will take care to bring you back to the place from whence I drew you for I well remember where it was A. Well then to your Question concerning Religion Inasmuch as I told you that Vertue is comprehended in Obedience to the Laws of the Commonweath whereof Religion is one I have placed Religion amongst the Vertues B. Is Religion then the Law of a Commonwealth A. There is no Nation in the World whose Religion is not Established and receives not its Authority from the Laws of that Nation It is true that the Law of God receives no obedience from the Laws of Men But because men can never by their own Wisdom come to the knowledge of what God hath spoken and Commanded to be Observed nor be obliged to obey the Laws whose Author they know not they are to acquiâ—ss in some humane Authority or other So that the Question will be Whether a man ought in matter of Religion that is to say when there is question of his Dâ—ty to God and the King to rely upon the Praeaching of their Fellow-Subjects or of 2 Stranger or upon the voice of the Law B. There is no great difficulty in that point for there is none that Preach here or any where else at least ought to Preach but such as have Authority so to do from him or them that have the Soveraign Power So that if the King give us leave you or I may as lawfully Preach as them that do and I believe we should perform that Office a great deal better than they that preached us into Rebellion A. The Church Morals are in many points very different from these that I have here set down for the Doctrine of Vertue and Vice and yet without any conformity with that of Aristotle for in the Church of Rome the principle Vertues are to obey their Doctrine though it be Treason and that is to be Religious to be beneficial to the Clergy that is their Piety and Liberality and to believe upon their word that which a man knows in his Conscience to the false which is the Faith that they require I could name a great many more such points of their Morals but that I know you know them already being so well versed in the cases of Conscience written by their School-men who measure the goodness and wickedness of all Actions by their Congruity with the Doctrine of the Roman Clergy B. But what is the Moral Philosophy of the Protestant Clergy in England A. So much as they shew of it in their Life and Conversation is for the most part very good and of very good example much better than their Writings B. It happens many times that men live honestly for fear who if they had Power would live according to their own Opinions that is if their Opinions be nor right Unrighteously A. Do the Clergy in England pretend as the Pope does or â—s the Presbyterians do to have a right from God immediately to govern the King and his Subjects in all points of Religion and Manners If they do you cannot doubt but that if they had Number and Strength which they are never like to have they would attempt to attain that Power as the others have done B. I would be glad to see a System of the present Morals written by some Divine of good Reputation and Learning and of the late King's party A. I think I can recommend unto you the best that is extant and such an one as except a few passages that I mislike is very well worth your reading the Title of it is The whole Duty of Man laid down in a plain and familiar way And yet I dare say that if the Presbyterian Ministers even those of them that were the most diligent Preachers of the late Sedit on were to be tried by it they would go near to be found
so in other cases the Scripture says one Scripture says one thing and they think another weâ—ghing the commodities or incommodities of this present life onely which are in their sight never putting into the scales the good and evil of the Life to come which they see not A. All his is no more than happens where the Scripture is sealed up in Greek and Latine and the People taught the same things out of them by Preachers but they that are of a Condition and Age fit to examine the sense of what they read and that take a delight in searching out the grounds of their duty certainly cannot chuse but by reading of the Scriptures come to such a sense of their Duty as not only to obey the Laws themselves but also to induce others to do the same for commonly Men of Age and quality are followed by their inseriour Neighbours that look more upon the example of those Men whom they Reverence and whom they are unwilling to displease then upon Precepts and Laws A. These men of the Condition and Age you speak of are in my opinion the unfittest of all others to be trusted with the reading of the Scriptures I know you mean such as have studied the Greek or Latin or both Tongues and that are withal such as love knowledge and consequently take delight in finding out the meaning of the most hard Texts or in thinking they have found it in case it be new and not found out by others these are therefore they that pretermitting the easie places that teach them their duty fall to scanning only the Mysteries of Religion Such as are how it may be made out with wit that there be three that bear Rule in Heaven and those three but one how the Deity could be made flesh how that flesh could be really present in many places at once where 's the place and what the Torments of Hell and other Metaphysical Doctrines whether the Will of Man be free or govern'd by the will of God whether Sanctity comes by Inspiration or Education by whom Christ now speaks to us whether by the King or by the Bible to every man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like poâ—nts are the study of the curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of men whom the Scriptures had taught belief in Christ love towards God obedience towards the King and sobriety of Behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the Disputable Doctrines of your wise men A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scriptures to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their interpretation for the word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know more does them no good but in case any of these unnecessary Doctrines shall be Authorized by the Laws of the King or other state I say it is the duty of every Subject not to speak against them in asmuch as 't is every Mans duty to obey him or them that have the Soveraign power and the wisdom of all such powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to sedition or disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had there breeding in the Universities for such curious questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those politick questions concerning the rights of Civil and Ecclesiastical Government and there they are furnished with Arguments for Liberty out of the works of Aristotle Plato Cicero Seneca and out of the Histories of Rome and Greece for their disputation against the necessary power of their Soveraigns therefore I dispare of any lasting peace among our selves till the Universities here shall bend and direct their studies to the setling of it That is to the Teaching of Absolute obedience to the Laws of the King and to his publick Edicts under the great Seal of England For I make no doubt but that solid reason backt with the Authority of so many Learned men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any victory over the Rebells but I am afraid 't is unpossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of State as is necessary for the business seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both Soveraign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all points for the Kings power presently after that King Henry 8. was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authory of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are govern'd and the Clergy wâ—thout the Universities as well Bishops as Inseriour Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greateâ—t part of them but that their spiritual power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by successible Imposition of hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that â—iâ—is derivation passed through the hands of Popes and Bishops whose Authority they had cast off for though they were content that the Divine right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it rot so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the Declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nounes and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many Learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters of Divinity for Religion has been for a long time and is now by most people taken for the same thing with Divinity to the great advantage of the Clergy A. And especially now amongst the Presbyterians for I see few that are esteemed by them very good Christians besides such as can repeat their Sermons and wrangle so them about Interpretat on of the Scripture and fight for them also with their Bodies or Purses when they shall be required to believe in Christ is nothing with them unless you believe as they bid you Charity is nothing with them unless it be Charity and Liberality to them and partaking with them in Faction How we can have peace while this is our Religion I cannot tell Haeret Laterilethalis arundo The
prospered When these three came through London it was a kind of Triumph the People flocking together to behold them and receiving them with such Acclamations and almost Adoration as if they had been let down from Heaven Insomuch that the Parliament was now sufficiently assured of a great and tumultuous Party whensoever they should have occasion to use it on confidence whereof they proceeded to their next Plot which was to deprive the King of such Ministers as by their Courage Wisdom and Authority they thought most able to prevent or oppose their further Designs against the King And first the House of Commons resolv'd to impeach the Earl of Strafford Lord Lieutenant of Ireland of High-Treason B. What was that Earl of Strafford before he had that Place And how had he offended the Parliament or given them cause to think he would be their Enemy For I have heard that in former Parliaments he had been as Parliamentary as any other A. His Name was Sir Thomas Wentworth a Gentleman both for Birth and Estate very considerable in his own Country which was Yorkshire but more considerable for his Judgement in the Publick Affairs not only of that Country but generally of the Kingdom either as Burgess for some Borrough or Knight of the Shire For his Principles of Politicks they were the same that were generally proceeded upon by all Men else that are thought sit to be chosen for the Parliament which are commonly these To take for the Rule of Justice and the Government the Judgements and Acts of former Parliaments which are commonly called Precedents to endeavour to keep the People from being subject to Extra-Parliamentary Taxes of money and from being with Parliamentary Taxes too much oppressed to preserve to the People their Liberty of Body from their Arbitrary Power of the King out of Paâ—liament to seek Redress of Grievances B. What Grievances A. The Grievances were commonly such as these The King 's too much Liberality to some Favourite the too much Power of any Minister of State of Officer the Mâ—sdemeanours of Judges Civil or Spiritual but especially all Unparliamentary raising of Money upon the Subjects And commonly of late till such Grievances be redressed they refuse or at least make great difficulty to furnish the King with Money necessary for the most urgent occasions of the Commonwealth B. How then can a King discharge his Duty as he ought to do or the Subject know which of his Masters he is to obey For here are manifestly two Powers which when they chance to differ cannot both be obeyed A. 'T is true but they have not often differed so much to the danger of the Commonwealth as they have done in this Parliament of 1640. In all the Parliaments of the late King Charles before the year 1640. my Lord of Strafford did appear in opposition to the King's Demands as much as any man and was for that Cause very much esteemed and cryed up by the People as a good Patriot and one that couragiously stood up in defence of their Liberties and for the same cause was so much the more hated when afterwards he endeavoured to maintain the Royal and Just Authority of his Majesty B. How came he to change his mind so much as it seems he did A. After the Dissolution of that Parliament holden in the year 1627 and 1628 the King finding no Money to be gotten from Parliaments which he was not to buy with the Bloud of such Servants and Ministers as he loved best abstained a long time from calling any more and had abstained longer if the Rebellion of the Scotch had not forced him to it During that Parliament the King made Sir Thomas Wentworth a Baron recommended to him for his great ability which was generally taken notice of by the disservice he had done the King in former Parliaments but which might be useful also for him in the times that came on and not long after that he made him of the Council and again Lieutenant of Ireland which place he discharged with great satisfaction and benefit to his Majesty and continued in that Office till by the Envy and Violence of the Lords and Commons of that unlucky Parliament of 1640. he died in which year he was made General of the King's Forces against the Scotch that then entred into England and the year before Earl of Strafford The Pacification being made and the Forces on both sides Disbanded and the Parliament at Westminster now Sitting it was not long before the House of Commons accused him to the House of Lords of High-Treason B. There was no great probability of his being a Traitor to the King from whose favour he had received his greatness and from whose protection he was to expect his safety What was the Treason they laid to his Charge A. Many Articles were drawn up against him but the sum of them was contained in these two First That he had traiterously endeavour'd to subvert the Fundamental Laws and Government of the Realm and instead thereof to introduce an Arbitrary and Tyrannical Government against Law Secondly That he had laboured to subvert the Rights of Parliaments and the ancient course of Parliamentary Proceedings B. Was this done by him without the knowledge of the King A. No. B. Why then if it were Treason did not the King himself call him in question by his Attorney What had the House of Commons to do without his Command to accuse him to the House of Lords They might have complain'd to the King if he had not known it before I understand not this Law A. Nor I. B. Had this been by any former Statutes made Treason A. Not that I ever heard of nor do I understand that any thing can be Treason against the King that the King hearing and knowing does not think Treason But it was a piece of that Parliaments Artifice to put the word Traiterously to any Article exhibited against a Man whose life they meant to take away B. Was there no particular Instance of action or words out of which they argued that endeavour of his to subvert the fundamental Laws of Parliament whereof they accused him A. Yes they said he gave the King counsel to reduce the Parliament to their duty by the Irish Army which not long before my Lord of Strafford himself had caused to be levied there for the King's service but it was never proved against him that he advised the King to make use of it against the Parliament B. What are those Laws that are called fundamental for I understand not how one Law can be more fundamental than another except only that Law of Nature that binds us all to obey him whosoever he be whom lawfully and for our own safety we have promised to obey nor any other fundamental Law to a King but Salus Populi The safety and well being of the people A. This Parliament in the use of these words when they accused any Man never regarded the signification of
them but the weight they had to aggravate their accusation to the Ignorant multitudes which think all faults hainous that are exprest in hainous terms If they hate the reason accused as they did this man not only for being of the Kings party but also for deserting the Parliaments party as an Apostate B. I pray you tell me also what they meant by Arbitrary Government which they seemed so much to hate Is there any Governour of a people in the World that is forced to Govern them or forced to make this and that Law whether he will or no! I think or if any be that forces him does certainly make Laws and Govern Arbitrarily A. That is true and the true meaning of the Parliament was that not the King but they themselves should have the Arbitrary Government not only of England but of Ireland and as it appeared by the event of Scotland also B. How the King came by the Government of Scotland and Ireland by descent of his Ancestors every body can â—ell but if the King of England and his Heirs should chance which God forbid to fail I cannot imagine what Title the Parliament of England can acquire thereby to either of those Nations A. Yet they say they have been conquer'd antiently by the English Subjects Money B. Like enough and suitable to the rew of their imdence A. Impudence in Democratical Assemblies does almost all that is done 't is the Goddess of Rhetorick and carries on proof with it for though ordinary men will not from so great boldness of affirmation conclude there is great boldness of affirmation conclude there is a great probability in the King affirmed upon this accusation He was brought to his Trial at Westminster-hall before the House of Lords and found Guilty and presently after declared a Traitor by a Bill of Attainder that is by Act of Parliament B. It is a strange thing that the Lords should be induced upon so light grounds to give a sentence or give their assent to a Bill so prejudicial to themselves and their posterity A. 'T was not well done and yet as it seems not ignorantly for there is a clause in the Bill that it should not be taken hereafter for an example that is for a prejudice in the like case hereafter B. That is worse than the Bill it self and is a plain confession that their Sentence was unjust for what harâ—â— is their in the example of just Sentences Besides if hereafter the like case should happen the Sentence is not at all made weaker by such a provision A. Indeed I believe that the Lords most of them were not-willing to condemn him of Treason they were awed to it by the clamor of the common people that came to Westminster crying out Justice Justice against the Earl of Strafford the which were caused to flock together by some of the House of Commons that were well assured after the Triumphant Welcome of Prinne Burton and Bastwick to put the People into Tumult upon any occasion they desired They were awed unto it partly also by the House of Commons it self which if it desired to undo a Lord had no more to do but to Vote him a Delinquent A. A Delinquent what 's that A sinner is 't not Did they mean to undo all sinners A. By Delinquent they meant onely a man to whom they would do all the hurt they could but the Lords did not yet I think suspect they meant to casheer their whole House B. It 's a strange thing the whole House should not perceive the ruine of the King's power or weakening of themselves for they could not think it likely that they everâ— meant to take the Sovereignty from the King to give it to them who were few in number and less in power than so many Commoners because less beloved by the People A. But it seems not so strange to me for the Lords for their personal abilities as they were no less so also were they no more skilful in the Publick affairs than the Knights and Burgesses for there is no reason to think that if one that is to day a Knight of the Shire in the Lower House be to morrow made a Lord and a Member of the Higher House is therefore wiser than he was before they are all of both Houses prudent and able men as any in the Land in the business of their private Estates which requires nothing but diligence and a Natural Wit to govern them but for the Government of a Common-wealth neither Wit nor Prudence nor Diligence is enough without infallible Rules and the true Science of Equity and Justice B. If this be true it is impossible any Common-wealth in the World whether Monarchy Aristocracy or Democracy should continue long without change or sedition tending to change either of the Government or of the Governours A. 'T is true nor have any the greatest Common-wealths in the World been long from Sedition the Greeks had it first their Petty Kings and then by Sedition came to be Petty Common-wealths and then growing to be greater Common-wealths by Sedition again became Monarchies and all for want of Rules of Justice for the common People to take notice of which if the People had known in the beginning of every of these Seditions the ambitious persons could never have had the hope to disturb their Government after it had been once setled for ambition can do little without hands and few hands it could have if the common People were as diligently instructed in the true Principles of their Duty as they are terrifi'd and amazed by Preachers with fruitless and dangerous Doctrines concerning the nature of Man's Will and many other Philosophical Points that tend not at all to the salvation of the Soul in the World to come nor to their ease in this life but onely to the discretion towards the Clergy of that Duty which they ought to perform to the King B. For ought I see all the States of Christendom will be subject to those fits of Rebellion as long as the World lasteth A. Like enough and yet the fault as I have said may be easily mended by mending the Universities B. How long had the Parliament now sitten A. It began Novemb. 3. 1640. My Lord of Strafford was Impeached of Treason before the Lords November 12 sent to the Tower November 22 his Trial began March 22 and ended April 13. After his Trial he was voted guilty of High Treason in the House of Commons and after that in the House of Lords May 6 and on the 12 of May beheaded B. Great Expedition But could not the King for all that have saved him by a Pardon A. The King had heard all that passed at his Trial and had declared he was unsatisfied concerning the Justice of their Sentence and I think notwithstanding the danger of his own Person from the fury of the People and that he was counselled to give way to his Execution not-only by such as he most relied
they desired the whole and absolute soveraignty and to change the Monarchical Government into an Oligarchie that is to say to make the Parliament consisting of a few Lords and about 400 Commoners absolute in the soveraignty for the present and shortly after to lay the House of Lords aside for this was the Design of the Presbyterian Ministers who taking themselves to be by right the onely Lawful Government of the Church endeavoured to bring the same Form of Government into the Civil state and as the Spiritual Laws were to be made by their Synods so their Civil Laws should be made by the House of Commons who as they thought would no less be ruled by them afterwards than formerly they had been wherein they were deceived and found themselves out-gon by their own Disciples though not in Malice yet in Wit B. What followed after this A. In August following the King supposing he had now sufficiently obliged the Parliament to proceed no farther against him took a Journey into Scotland to satisfie his Subjects there as he had done here intending perhaps so to gain their good wills that in case the Parliament here should levy Arms against him they should not be aided by the Scots wherein he also was deceived for though they seemed satisfied with what he did whereof one thing was his giving away to the Aboletion of Episcopacy Yet afterwards they made a League with the Parliament and for Money when the King began to have the better of the Parliament invaded England in the Parliaments Quarrel but this was a Year or two after B. Before you go any farther I desire to know the Ground and Original of that Right which either the House of Lords or House of Commons or both together pretend to A. It is a question of things so long past that they are now forgotten nor have we any thing to conjecture by but the Records of our own Nation and some small and obscure fragments of Roman Histories And for the Records seeing they are of things only done sometimes justly sometimes unjustly you can never by them know what Right they had but only what Right they pretended B. Howsoever let me know what light we have in this matter from the Roman Histories A. It would be too long and an useless digression to â—â—â—all the Antient Authors that speak of the forms of those Common-wealths which were amongst our first Ancestors the Saxons and other Germans and of other Nations from whom we derive the Titles of Honour now in use in England nor will it be possible to derive from them any Arguments of Right but only Examples of fact which by the Ambition of Potent Subjects have been oftener unjust than otherwise and for those Saxons or Angles that in Antient times by several Invasions made themselves Masters of this Nation they were not in themselves one Body of Common-wealth but only a League of divers Petty German Lords and States such as was the Graecian Army in the Trojan War without other Obligations than that which proceeded from their own fear and weakness nor were these Lords for the most part the Soveraigns at home in their own Country but chosen by the people for the Captains of the Forces they brought with them And therefore it was not without Equity that when they had conquer'd any part of the Land and made some one of them King thereof the rest should have greater Priviledges than the common People and Soldiers amongst which Priviledges a man may easily conjecture this to be one that they should be made acquainted and be of Council with him that hath the Soveraignty in matters of Government and have the greatest and most honourable Offices both in Peace and War But because there can be no Government where there is more than one Soveraign it cannot be inferr'd that he had a Right to oppose the King's Resolutions by force nor to enjoy those honours and places longer than they should continue good Subjects And we find that the Kings of England did upon every great occasion call them together by the name of Discreet and Wise men of the Kingdom and hear their Councils and make them Judges of all Causes that during their Sitting were brought before them But as he summon'd them at his own pleasure so had he also ever at his pleasure power to Dissolve them The Normans also that descended from the Germans as we did had the same Customs in this particular and by this means this Priviledge have the Lords to be of your King 's great Council and when they were assembled to be the highest of the King's Court of Justice continued still after the Conquest to this day But though there be amongst the Lords divers Names or Titles of Honour yet they have their Priviledge by the only name of Baron a name receiv'd from the Antient Gauls amongst whom that name signified the King's man or rather one of his great men By which it seems to me that though they gave him Council when he requir'd it yet they had no Right to make War upon him if he did not follow it B. When began first the House of Commons to be part oâ— the King 's great Council A. I do not doubt but that before the Conquest some discreet men and known to be so by the King were called by special Writ to be of the same Council though they were not Lords But that is nothing to the House of Commons the Knights of â—lares and Burgesses were never called to Parliament for ought that I know till the beginning of Edward the first or the latter end of the Reign 〈◊〉 Henry the third immediately after the mis-behaviour of the Barons and for ought any man knows were called on purpose to weaken that Power of the Lords which they had so freshly abused Before the time of Henry the third the Lords were deâ—â—oâ—â—ed most of them from such as in the Invasions and Conquests of the Germans were Peers and â—ellow-Kings 'till one was made King of them â—â—ll and their Tenants were their Subjects as it is at this day with the Lords of France But after the time of Henry the third the Kings began to make Lords in the place of them whose Issue fail'd Titularly only without the Lands belonging to their Title and by that means their Tenants being bound no longer to Terve them in the Wars they grew every day less and less able to make a Party against the King though they continued still to be his great Council And as their Power decreased To the Power of the House of Commons increased But I do not find that they were part of the King's Council at all nor Judges over other men though it cannot be denied but a King may ask their advice as well as the advice of any other But I do not find that the end of their summoning was to give advice but only in case they had any Petitions for Redress of Grievances to be ready there
Nation And of those Designs the Promoters and Actors were they said 1. Jesuits and Papists 2. The Bishops and part of the Clergy that cherish formality as a support of their own Ecclesiastical Tyâ—â—nny and Usurpation 3. Counsellors and Courtiers that for private ends they said had engaged themselves to farther the Interests of some Foreign Princes B. It may well be that some of the Bishops and also some of the Court may have in pursuit of their private Interest done something indiscreetly and perâ—â—ps wickedly therefore I pray tell me particularly what their Crimes were for me thinks the King should not have conniv'd at any thing against his own Suâ—â—eam Authority A. The Parliament were not very keen against them that were against the King They made no doubt but all they did was by the King's Command but accused thereof the Bishops Counsellors and Courtiers as being a more mannerly way of Accusing the King himself and defaming him to his Subjects For the truth is the Charge they brought against them was so general as not to be called an Accusation but Railing As first They said they nourished Questions of Prerogatives and Liberty between the King and his People to the end that seeming much addicted to His Majesty's Service they might get themselves into places of greatest Trust and Power in the Kingdom B. How could this be call'd an Accusation in which there is no Fact for any Accusers to apply their Proof to or their Witnesses for granting that these Questions of Prerogative had been moved by them who can prove that their End was to gain to themselves and Friends the Places of Trust and Power in the Kingdom A. A second Accusation was that they endeavour'd to suppress the Purity and Power of Religion B. That 's Canting It is not in Man's power to suppress the Power of Religion A. They meant that they supprest the Doctrine of the Presbyterians that is to say the very Foundation of their Parliaments Treacherous Pretensions A third That they cherished Arminians Papists and Libertines by which they meant the common Protestants that meddle not with Disputes to the end they might compose a body fit to Act according to their Counsels and Resolutions A fourth That they endeavoured to put the King upon other courses of raising of Money than by the ordinary way of Parliaments Judge whether these may be properly called Accusations or not rather â—pightful Reproaches of the King's Government B. Methinks this last was a very great fault for what good could there be in putting the King upon any odd course of getting Money when the Parliament was willing to supply him as far as to the security of the Kingdom or to the honour of the King should be necessary A. But I told you before they would give him none but with a Condition he should cut off the heads of whom they pleased how faithfully soever they had serv'd him and if he would have sacrificed all his Friends to their Ambition yet they would have found other excuses to deny him Subsidies for they were resolv'd to take from him the Soveraign Power to themselves which they would never do without taking great care that he should have no Money at all In the next place they put into the Remonstrance as faults of them whose Council the King followed All those things which since the beginning of the King's Reign were by them misliked whether faults or not and whereof they were not able to judge for want of knowledge of the Causes and Motives that induced the King to do them and were known only by the King himself and such of his Privy-Council as he revealed them to B. But what were those particular pretended faults A. First The Dissolution of the last Parliament at Oxford Secondly The Dissolution of his second Parliament being in the second year of his Reign Thirdly The Dissolution of his Parliament in the fourth year of his Reign Fourthly The fruitless Expedition against Cales Fifthly the Peace made with Spain whereby the Palatine's Cause was deserted and left to chargeable and hopeless Treaties Sixthly The sending of Commissions to raise Money by way of Loan Seventhly Raising of Ship-money Eighthly Enlargements of Forrests contrary to Magna Charta Ninthly The Designment of Engrossing all the Gun-powder into one hand and keeping it in the Tower of London Tenthly A Design to bring in the Use of Brass-Money Eleventhly The Fines Imprisonments Stigmatizings Mutilations Whippings Pillories Gaggs Confinements and Banishments by Sentence in the Court of Star-Chamber Twelfthly The displacing of Judges Thirteenthly The Illegal Acts of Council-Table Fourteenthly The Arbitrary and Illegal Power of the Earl-Marshal's Court. Fifteenthly The Abuses in Chancery Exchequer-Chamber and Court of Wards Sixteenthly The selling of Titles of Honour of Judges and Serjeants Places and other Offices Seventeenthly The Insolence of Bishops and other Clarks in Suspensions Excommunications and Degradations of divers painful and learned and pious Ministers B. Were there any such Ministers Degraded Depraved or Excommunicated A. I cannot tell But I remember I have heard threatned divers painful unlearned and seditious Ministers Eighteenthly The Excess of Severity of the High-Commission-Court Nineteenthly The Preaching before the King against the Property of the Subject and for the Prerogative of the King above the Law and divers other petty Quarrels they had to the Government which though they were laid upon this Faction yet they knew they would fall upon the King himself in the Judgment of the People to whom by Printing it was communicated Again After the Dissolution of the Parliament May the 5th 1640. they find other faults as the Dissolution it self the Imprisoning some Members of both Houses a forced Loan of Money attempted in London the Continuance of the Convocation when the Parliament was ended and the favour shewed to Papists by Secretary Windebank and others B. All this will go currant with common people for Mis-government and for faults of the King 's though some of them were Mis-fortunes and both the Mis-fortunes and the Mis-governments if any were were the faults of the Parliament who by denying to give him Money did both frustrate his Attempts abroad and put him upon those extraordinary ways which they call Illegal of raising Money at home A. You see what a heap of Evils they have raised to make a shew of ill Government to the People which they second with an enumeration of the many services they have done the King in overcoming a great many of them though not all and in divers other things and say that though they had contracted a Debt to the Scots of 22000 l. and granted six Subsidies and a Bill of Pole-money worth six Subsidies more yet that God had so blessed the Endeavours of this Parliament that the Kingdom was a gainer by it and then follows the Catalogue of those good things they had done for the King and Kingdom For the Kingdom they had done they said these things They had abolished
Ship-money They had taken away Coat and Conduct-money and other Military Charges which they said amounted to little less than the Ship-money That they supprest all Monopolies which they reckoned above a Million yearly sav'd by the Subject That they had quell'd Living Grievances meaning Evil Counsellors and Actors by the Death of my Lord Strafford by the flight of the Chancellor Finch and of Secretary Windebank by the Imprisonment of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury and Judges that they had past a Bill for a Triennial Parliament and another for the Continuance of the present Parliament till they should think fit to Dissolve themselves B. That is to say for ever if they be suffered But the summ of all those things which they had done for the Kingdom is that they had left it without Government without Strength without Money without Law and without good Council A. They reckoned also putting down of the High-Commission and the abating of the Power of the Council-Table and of the Bishops and their Courts the taking away of unnecessary Ceremonies in Religion removing of Ministers from their Livings that were not of their Faction and putting in such as were B. All this was but their own and not the Kingdoms business A. The Good they had done the King was first they said the giving of 25000 l. a month for the Relief of the Northern Counties B. What need of Relief had the Northern more than the rest of the Counties of England A. Yes In the Northern Counties were quartered the Scotch Army which the Parliament call'd in to oppose the King and consequently their Quarters was to be discharged B. True but by the Parliament that call'd them in A. But they say no and that this Money was given the King because he is bound to protect his Subjects B. He is no farther bound to that than they to give him Money wherewithal to do it This is very great Impudence to raise an Army against the King and with that Army to oppress their Fellow-subjects and then require that the King should relieve them that is to say be at the Charge of Paying the Army that was raised to fight against him A. Nay farther they put to the King's Accounts the 30000 l. given to the Scots without which they would not have Invaded England besides many other things that I now remember not B. I did not think there had been so great Impudence and Villany in Mankind A. You have not observ'd the world long enough to see all that 's ill such was their Remonstrance as I have told you with it they sent a Petition containing three points First That His Majesty would deprive the Bishops of their Votes in Parliament and remove such Oppressions in Religion Church Government and Discipline as they had brought in Secondly That he would remove from his Council all such as should promote the Peoples Grievances and Imploy in his great and public Affairs such as the Parliament should confide in Thirdly That he would not give away the Lands Escheated to the Crown by the Rebellion in Ireland B. This last point methinks was not wisely put in at this time it should have been reserv'd till they had subdued the Rebels against whom there were yet no Forces sent over 'T is like selling the Lion's Skin before they had kill'd him But what answer was made to the other two Propositions A. What answer should be made but a Denial About the same time the King himself Exhibited Articles against six persons of the Parliament five whereof were of the House of Comons and one of the House of Lords accusing them of High Treason and upon the fourth of January went himself to the House of Commons to demand those five of them but private notice having been given by some Treacherous person about the King they had absented themselves and by that means frustrated His Majesties Intention and after he was gone the House making a hainous matter of it and a High Breach of their Priviledges adjourned themselves into London there to sit as a General Committee pretending they were not safe at Westminster for the King when he went to the House to demand those persons had somewhat more attendance with him but not otherwise armed than his servants used to be than he ordinarily had and would not be pacified though the King did afterwards wave the prosecution of those persons unless he would also discover to them those that gave him Counsel to go in that manner to the Parliament-House to the end they might receive condign punishment which was the Word they used instead of Cruelty B. This was a harsh Demand Was it not enough that the King should forbear his Enemies but also that he must betray his Friends If they thus tyrannize over the King before they have gotten the Soveraign Power into their Hands how will they tyrannize over their Fellow-Subjects when they have gotten it A. So as they did B. How long staid that Commitee in London A. Not above 2 or 3 Days and then were brought from London to the Parliament-House by Water in great Triumph guarded with a tumultuous number of Armed Men there to sit in security in despite of the King and make Traiterous Acts against Him such and as many as they listed and under favour of these Tumults to frighten away from the House of Peers all such as were not of their own Faction for at this time the Rabble was so insolent that scarce any of the Bishops durst go to the House for fear of Violence upon their Persons insomuch that Twelve of them excused themselves of Coming thither and by way of Petition to the King remonstrated that they were not permitted to go quietly to the Performance of that Duty and protesting against all Determinations as of none Effect that should pass in the House of Lords during their forced Absence which the House of Commons taking hold of sent up to the Peers one of their Members to accuse them of High Treason whereupon Ten of them were sent to the Tower after which time there was no more words of their High Treason but there passed a Bill by which they were deprived of their Votes in Parliament And to this Bill they got the King's Assent and in the beginning of September after they Voted the Bishops should have no more to do in the Government of the Church but to this they had not the King's Assent the War being now begun B. What made the Parliament so averse to Episcopacy and especially the House of Lords whereof the Bishops were Members For I see no reason why they should do it to gratifie a number of poor Parish Priests that were Presbyterians and that were never likely to serve the Lords but on the contrary to do their best to pull down their power and subject them to their Synods and Classes A. For the Lords very few of them did perceive the intention of the Presbyterians and besides that they durst not I
believe oppose the Lower House B. But why were the Lower House so earnest against them A. Because they meant to make use of their Tenants and with pretended Sanctity to make the King and his Party odious to the People by whose help they were to set up Democracy and Depose the King or to let him have the Title only so long as he should Act for their purposes But not only the Parliament but in a manner all the People of England were their Enemies upon the account of their behaviour as being they said too imperious This was all that was colourable laid to their charge the main of the pulling them down was the Envy of the Presbyterians that incensed the People against them and against Episcopacy it self B. How would the Presbyterians have the Church to be govern'd A. By National and Provincial Synods B. Is not this to make the National Assembly an Arch-Bishop and the Provincial Assemblies so many Bishops A. Yes but every Minister shall have the delight of sharing the Government and consequently of being able to be reveng'd on them that do not admire their Learning and help to fill their purses and win to their service them that do B. 'T is a hard Case that there should be two Factions to trouble the Common-wealth without any Interest of their own other than every particular man may have and that their quarrels should be only about Opinions that is about who has the most Learning as if their Learning ought to be the Rule of Governing the whole World What is it they are Learned in is it Politicks and Rules of State I know it is called Divinity but I hear almost nothing preacht but matter of Philosophy for Religion in it self admits of no Controversie 'T is a Law of the Kingdom and ought not to be disputed I do not think they pretend to speak with God and know his will by any other way than reading the Scriptures which we also do A. Yes some of them do and give themselves out for Prophets by extraordinary Inspiration but the rest pretend only for their Advancement to Benefices and Charge of Souls a greater skill in the Scriptures than other men have by reason of their breeding in the Universities and knowledge there gotten of the Latin Tongue and some also of the Greek and Hebrew Tongues wherein the Scriptures were written besides their knowledge of Natural Philosophy which is there publickly taught B. As for the Latin Greek and Hebrew it was once to the Detection of the Roman Fraud and to the Ejection of the Romish Power very profitable or rather necessary But now that is done and we have the Scripture in English and Preaching in English I see no great need of Latin Greek and Hebrew I should think my self better qualified by under standing well the Languages of our Neighbours French Dutch and Italian I think it was never seen in the world before the Power of Popes was setup that Philosophy was much conducing to power in a Commonwealth A. But Philosophy together with Divinity hath very much conduced to the Advancement of the Professors thereof to places of the greatest Authority next to the Authority of Kings themselves in most of the Antient Kingdoms of the world as is manifestly to be seen in the History of those times B. I pray you cite me some of the Authors and places A. First what were the Druids of old time in Britany and France what Authority these had you may see in Caesar Strabo and others and especially in Diodorus Siculus the greatest Antiquary perhaps that ever was who speaking of the Druids which he calls Sarovides in France saith thus There be also amongst them certain Philosophers and Theologians that are exceedingly honoured whom they also use as Prophets These men by their skill in Augury and Inspection into the Bowels of Beasts sacrificed foretel what is to come and have the multitude in obedience to them and a little after It is a custom amongst them that no man may sacrifice without a Philosopher because say they men ought not to present their Thanks to the Gods but by them that know the Divine Nature and are as it were of the same language with them and that all good things ought by such as these to be prayed for B. I can hardly believe that those Druids were very skilful either in Natural Philosophy or Moral A. Nor I for they held and taught the Transmigration of Souls from one Body to another as did Pythagoras which Opinion whether they took from him or he from them I cannot tell What were the Magi in Persia but Philosophers and Astrologers You know how they came to find our Saviour by the Conduct of a Star either from Persia it self or from some Country more Eastward than Judea were not these in great Authority in their Country And are they not in most part of Christendom thought to have been Kings Aegypt hath been thought by many the most Antient Kingdom and Nation of the world and their Priests had the greatest power in Civil Affairs that any Subject ever had in any Nation And what were they but Philosophers and Divines Concerning whom the same Diodorus Siculus saies thus The whole Country of Egypt being divided into three parts the Body of the Priests have One as being of most credit with the people both for their Devotions towards the Gods and also for their Understanding gotten by Education and presently after for generally those men in the greatest Affairs of all the King's Councellors partly Executing and partly Informirg and Advising foretelling him also by their skill in Astrology and Art in the Inspection of Sacrifices the things that are to come and reading to him out of their Holy Books such of the Actions there recorded as are profitable for him to know 'T is not there as in Greece one man or one woman that has thé Priesthood but they are many that attend the Honours and Sacrifices of the Gods and leave the same Imployment to their posterity which next to the King have the greatest Power and Authority Concerning the Judicature amongst the Aegyptians he saith thus From out of the most eminent Cities Hieropolis Thebes and Memphis they chuse Judges which are Council not inferiour to that of Areopagus in Athens or that of the Senate in Lacedoemon when they are met being in number thirty they chuse one from among themselves to be Chief Justice and the City whereof he is sendeth another in his place This Chief Justice wore about his neck hung in a gold Chain a Jewel of precious Stones the name of which Jewel was Truth which when the Chief Justice had put on then began the Pleading c. And when the Judges had agreed on the Sentence then did the Chief Justice put this Jewel of Truth on one of the Pleas. You see now what power was acquired in Civil matters by the conjuncture of Philosophy and Divinity Let us come now to the
liberty in one form of Government than another A. Howsoever to the people that understand by Liberty nothing but leave to do what they list it was a Title not ungrateful Their next work was to set forth a publick Declaration that they were fully resolved to maintain the Fundamental Laws of the Nation as to the preservation of the Lives Liberties and Proprieties of the people B. What did they mean by the Fundamental Laws of the Nation A. Nothing but to abuse the people for the only Fur damental Law in every Common-Wealth is to obey the Laws from time to time which he shall make to whom the people have given the Supreme Power How likely then are they to uphold the Fundamental Laws that had murdered him who was by themselves so often acknowledged their lawful Soveraign Besides at the same time that this Declaration came forth they were erecting the High Court of Justice which took away the lives of Duke Hamilton the Earl of Holland and the Lord Capel whatsoever they meant by a Fundamental Law the Erecting of this Court was a breach of it as being warranted by no former Law or Example in England At the same time also they levied Taxes by Soldiers and permitted Free Qarter to them and did many other Actions which if the King had done they would have said had been done against the Liberty and Propriety of the Subject B. What silly things are the common sort of people to be cozen'd as they were so grosly A. What sort of people as to this matter are not of the common sort the crastiest Knaves of all the Rump were no wiser than the rest whom they cozen'd for the most of them did believe that the same things which they impos'd upon the generality were just and reasonable and especially the great Haranguers and such as pretended to Learning for who can be a good Subject in a Monarchy whose Principles are taken from the Enemies of Monarchy such as were Cicoro Seneca Cato and other Polititians of Rome and Aristotle of Athens who spake of Kings but as Wolves and other ravenous Beasts You may perhap think a man has need of nothing else to know the duty he owes to his Governour and what right he has to order him but a good Natural Wit But it is otherwise for it is a Science and built upon sure and clear Principles and to be learn'd by deep and careful study or from Masters that have deeply studied it And who was there in the Parliament or in the Nation that could find out those evident Principles and derive from thence the necessary Rules of Justice and the necessary Connexion of Justice and Peace The people have one day in seven the leisure to hear Instructions and there are Ministers appointed to teach them their duty But how have these Ministers perform'd their Office A great part of them namely the Presbyterian Ministers throughout all the whole War instigated the people against the King so did also Independant and other Fanatick Ministers There contented with their Livings preached in their Parishes points of Controversie to Religion impertinent but to the breach of Charity among themselves very effectual or else Eloquent things which the people either understood not or thought themselves not concern'd in But this sort of Preachers as they did little good so they did little hurt the mischief proceeded wholly from the Presbyterian Preachers who by a long practis'd Histrionick Faculty preached up the Rebellion powerfully B. To what end A. To the end that the State becoming popular the Church might be so too and govern'd by an Assembly and consequently as they thought seeing Politicks are subservient to Religion they might govern and thereby satisfie their covetous humour with Riches and also their malice with Power to undo all men that admir'd not their Wisdom Your calling the people silly things oblig'd me by this digression to shew you that it is not want of Wit but want of the Science of Justice that brought them into these troubles Perswade if you can that man that has made his Fortune or made it greater or an Eloquent Orator or a ravishing Poet or a subtil Lawyer or but a good hunter or a cunning Gamester that he has not a good Wit and yet there were of all these a great many so silly as to be deceived by the Rump They wanted not wit but the knowledg of the Causes and grounds upon which one person has a right to govern and the rest an obligation to obey which grounds are necessary to be taught the people who without them cannot live long in peace among themselves B. Let us return if you please to the proceedings of the Rump A. In the rest of the year they voted a new Stamp for the Coyn of this Nation They considered also of Agents to be sent into Foreign Parts and having lately receiv'd Applause from the Army for their work done by the High Court of Justice and incouragement to extend the same farther they perfected the said High Court of Justice in which were tryed Duke Hamilton the Earl of Holland the Lord Capel the Earl of Norwich and Sir John Owen whereof as I mention'd before the first three were beheaded This affrighted divers of the Kings Party out of the Land for not only they but all that had born Arms for the King were 〈◊〉 that time in very great danger of their lives for it waâ— put to the question by the Army at a Council of Waâ— whether they should be all Massacred or no wherâ— the No's carried it but by two Voices Lastly Marâ—â— 24. they put the Mayor of London out of his Office fined him two thousand pound disfranchised him and condemn'd him to two Months Imprisonment in the Tower for refusing to proclaim the Act for abolishing of the Kingly Power And thus ended the year 1648. and the Monthly Fast God having granted that which they fasted for the death of the King and the possession of his Inheritance By these their Proceedings they had already lost the hearts of the generality of the People and had nothing to trust to but the Army which was not in their power but in Cromwel's who never fail'd when there was occasion to put them upon all Exploits that might make them odious to the people in order to his future dissolving them whensoever it should conduce to his ends In the beginning of 1649. the Scots discontented with the proceedings of the Rump against the late King began to levy Soldiers in order to a new Invasion of England The Irish Rebels for want of timely resistance from England were grown terrible and the English Army at home infected by the Adjutators began to cast about how to share the Land among the Godly meaning themselves and such others as they pleas'd who were therefore call'd Levellers Also the Rump for the present were not very well provided of Money and therefore the first thing they did was the laying of a
Tax upon the people of ninety thousand pound a Month for the maintenance of the Army B Was it not one of their Quarrels with the King that he had levied Money without the consent of the people in Parliament A. You may see by this what reason the Rump had to call it self a Parliament for the Taxes imposed by Parliament were always understood to be by the peoples consent and consequently legal To appease the Scots they sent Messengers with flattering Letters to keep them from ingaging for the present King but in vain for they would hear nothing from a House of Commons as they call'd it at Westminster without a King and Lords But they sent Commissioners to the King to let him know what they were doing for him for they were resolv'd to raise an Army of seventeen thousand Foot and six thousand Horse for themselves To relieve Ireland the Rump had resolv'd to send eleven Regiments thither out of the Army here in England This happened well for Cromwel for the Levelling Soldiers which were in every Regiment many and in some the major part finding that instead of dividing the Land at home they were to venture their Lives in Ireland flatly denied to go and one Regiment having cashier'd their Colonel about Salisbury was marching to joyn with three Regiments more of the same resolution but both the General and Cromwel falling upon them at Burford utterly defeated them and soon after reduced the whole Army to their obedience And thus another of the Impediments to Cromwel's Advancement was soon remov'd Thus done they came to Oxford and thence to London and at Oxford both the General and Cromwel were made Doctors of the Civil Law and at London â—easted and presented by the City B. Were they not first made Masters then Dâ—ctors A. They had made themselves Masters already both of the Laws and Parliament The Army being now obedient the Rump sent over those eleven Regiments into Ireland under the Command of Doctor Cromwel Entituled Governour of that Kingdom the Lord Fairfax being still General of all the Forces both here and there The Marquess now Duke of Ormond was the Kings Lieutenant of Ireland and the Rebels had made a Confederacy among themselves and those Confederates had made a kind of League with the Lieutenant wherein they agreed upon liberty given them in the exercise of their Religion to be faithful to and assist the King To these also were joyned some Forces raised by the Earls of Castlehaven and Clanriccard and my Lord Inchequin so that they were the greatest United Strength in the Island but there were among them a great many other Papists that would by no means subject themselves to Protestants and these were called the Nuncio's Party as the other were called the Confederate Party These Parties not agreeing and the Confederate Party having broken their Articles the Lord Lieutenant seeing them ready to besiege him in Dublin and not able to defend it to preserve the place for the Protestants surrenders it to the Parliament of England and came over to the King at this time when he was carried from place to place by the Army From England he went over to the Prince now King residing then at Paris But the Confederates affrighted with the news that the Rump was sending over an Army thither desir'd the Prince by Letters to send back my Lord of Ormond ingaging themselves to submit absolutely to the Kings Authority and to obey my Lord of Ormond as his Lieutenant And thereupon he was sent back This was about a year before the going over of Cromwel in which time by the Dissentions in Ireland between the Confederate Party and the Nuncio's Party and discontents about Command this otherwise sufficient Power effected nothing and was at last defeated August the second by a Salley out of Dublin which they were besieging Within a few days after arriv'd Cromwel who with extraordinary diligence and horrid Executions in less than a Twelve-month that he staid there subdued in a manner the whole Nation having kill'd or exterminated a great part of them and leaving his Son-in-law Ireton to subdue the rest But Ireton died there before the business was quite done of the Plague This was one step more towards Cromwel's Exaltation to the Throne B. What a miserable condition was Ireland reduced to by the Learning of the Roman as well as England was by the Learning of the Presbyterian Clergy A. In the latter end of the preceeding year the King was come from Paris to the Hague and shortly after came thither from the Rump their Agent Dorisâ—aus Doctor of the Civil Law who had been imployed in the drawing of the Charge against the late King But the first night he came as he was at Supper a Company of Cavaliers near a dozen entred his Chamber kill'd him and got away Not long after also their Agent at Madrid one Ascham that had written in defence of his Masters was kill'd in the same manner About this tire came out two Books one written by Salmasius a Presbyterian against the Murder of the King another written by Milton an Independent in England in Answer to it B. I have seen them both they are very good Laâ—iâ—â— both and hardly to be judged which is better and both very ill reasoning and hardly to be judged which is worst like two Declamations Pro and Con for Exercise only in a Rhetorick School by one and the same man So like is a Presbyterian to an Independent A. In this year the Rump did not much at home save that in the beginning they made England a Free State by an Act that runs thus Be it Enacted and Declared by this present Parliament and by the Authority thereof That the people of England and all the Dominions and Territories thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted made and declared a Common-wealth and Free State c. B. What did they mean by a Free State and Common-wealth were the people no longer to be subject to Laws They could not mean that for the Parliament meant to Govern them by their own Laws and punish such as broke them Did they mean that England should not be subject to any foreign Kingdom or Common-wealth That needed not be Enacted seeing there was no King nor People pretended to be their Masters What did they mean then A. They meant that neither this King nor any King nor any single person but only that they themselves would be the Peoples Masters and would have set it down in those plain words if the people could have been cozen'd with words intelligible as easily as with words not intelligible After this they gave one another Money and Estates out of the Lands and Goods of the Loyal Party They Enacted also an Engagement to be taken by every man in these words Tou shall promise to be true and faithful to the Common-wealth of England as it is now established without King or House of Lords They
therefore with the best of their Horse charged the English and made them at first to shrink a little but the English Foot coming on the Scots were put to flight and the flight of their Horse hindred the Foot from engaging who therefore fled as did also the rest of their Horse Thus the folly of the Scotish Commanders brought all these odds to an even lay between two small and equal Parties wherein Fortune gave the Victory to the English who were not many more in number than those that were killed and taken Prisoners of the Scots and the Church lost their Cannon Bag and Baggage with 10000 Arms and almost their whole Army the rest were got together by Lesby to Sterling B. This Victory hapned well for the King for had the Scots been Victors the Presbyterians both there and here would have domineer'd again and the King been in the same condition his Father was in at Newcastle in the hands of the Scotish Army For in pursuit of this Victory the English at last brought the Scots to a pretty good habit of obedience for the King whensoever he should recover his Right A. In pursuit of this Victory the English marched to Edinborrough quitted by the Scots fortified Leith and took in all the strength and Castles they thought sit on this side the Frith which now was become the Bounds betwixt the two Nations and the Scotch Ecclesiasticks began to know themselves better and resolved in their new Army which they meant to raise to admit some of the Royalists into Command Cromwel from Edinborrough march'd towards Sterling to provoke the Enemy to fight but finding danger in it returned to Edinborrough and besieged the Castle In the mean time he sent a Party into the West of Scotland to suppress Strangham and Kerr two great presbyterians that were there levying of Forces for their new Army And in the same time the Scots Crowned the King at Schone The rest of this year was spent in Scotland on Cromwel's part in taking of Edinborrough Castle and in attempts to pass the Frith or any other ways to get over to the Scotish Forces and on the Scots part in hastening their Levies for the North. B. What did the Rump at home during this time A. They voted Liberty of Conscience to the Sectaries that is they pluckt out the sting of Presbytery which consisted in a severe imposing of odd Opinions upon the people impertinent to Religion but conducing to the advancement of the power of the Presbyterian Ministers Also they levyed more Souldiers and gave the Command of them to Harrison now made Major General a Fifth-Monarchy man and of those Souldiers two Regiments of Horse and one of Foot were raised by the Fifth-monarchy-men and other Sectaries in thankfulness for this their Liberty from the Presbyterian Tyranny Also they pull'd down the late Kings Statue in the Exchange and in the place where it stood caused to be written these words Exit Tyrannus Regum ultimus c. B. What good did that do them and why did they not pull down the Statues of all the rest of the Kings A. What account can be given of actions that proceed not from Reason but spight and such like passions Besides this they received Ambassadors from Portugal and Spain acknowledging their Power And in the very end of the Year they prepared an Ambassador to the Netherlands to offer them friendship All they did besides was persecuting and executing of Royalists In the beginning of the Year 1651. General Dean arrived in Scotland and on the 11th of April the Scotish Parliament assembled and made certain Acts in order to a better uniting of themselves and better obedience to the King who was now at Sterling with the Scotish Forces he had expecting more now in levying Cromwel from Edinborough went divers times to Sterling to provoke them to fight There was no Ford there to passover his men At last Boats being come from London and Newcastle Colonel Overton though it were long first for it was now July transported 1400 Foot of his own besides another Regiment of Foot and four Troops of Horse and intrencht himself at North-Ferry on the other side and before any help could come from Sterling Major General Lambert also was got over with as many more by this time Sir John Brown was come to oppose them with 4500 men whom the English there defeated killing about 2000 and taking Prisoners 1600. This done and as much more of the Army transported as was thought fit Cromwel comes before St. Johnston's from whence the Scotish Parliament upon news of his passing the Iriâ—h was removed to Dundes and summons it and the same day had news brought him that the King was marching from Sterling towards England which was true but notwithstanding the King was three days march before him he resolved to have the Town before he followed him and accordingly had it the next day by surrender B. What hopes had the King in coming into England having before and behind him none at least none armed but his Enemies A. Yes there was before him the City of London which generally hated the Rump and might easily be reckoned for 20000 well armed Souldiers and most men believed they would have taken his part had he come near the City B. What probability was there of that Do you think the Rump was not sure of the service of the Mayor and those that Commanded the City Militia And if they had been really the Kings Friends what need had they to stay his coming up to London They might have seiz'd the Rump if they had pleas'd which had no possibility of defending themselves at least they might have turn'd them out of the House A. This they did not but on the contrary permitted the recruiting of Cromwel's Army and the raising of men to keep the Country from coming in to the King The King began his march from Sterling the last of July and Aug. 22. came to Worcester by the way of Carlisâ—e with a weary Army of about 13000 whom Cromwel followed and joining with the new Levies environ'd Worcester with 40000 and on the third of September utterly defeated the Kings Army Here Duke Hamilton brother of him that was beheaded was slain B. What became of the King A. Night coming on before the City was quite taken he left it being dark and none of the Enemies Horse within the Town to follow him the plundering Foot having kept the Gates shut lest the Horse should enter and have a share of the Booty The King before morning got into Warwickshire 25 Miles from Worcester and there lay disgused a while and afterwards went up and down in great danger of being discovered till at last he got over into France from Brighthempstead in Sussex B. When Cromwel was gone what was farther done in Scotland A. Lieutenant Gen. Mâ—nk whom Cromwel left there with 7000 took Sterling August the 14th by surrender and Dundes the third of September by
Storm because it resisted this the Soldiers plundered and had good booty because the Scots for safety had sent thither their most precious Goods from Edinborrough and St. Johnston's he took likewise by surrender Aberdeen and the place where the Scotish Ministers first learned to play the Fools St. Andrews Also in the Highlands Colonel Alured took a knot of Lords and Gentlemen viz. four Earls and four Lords and above twenty Knights and Gentlemen whom he sent Prisoners into England so that there was nothing more to be feared from Scotland all the trouble of the Rump was to resolve what they should do with it at last they resolved to Unite and Incorporate it into a Common-wealth with England and Ireland and to that end sent thither St. Johns Vane and other Commissioners to offer them this Union by publick Declaration and to warn them to chuse their Deputies of Shires and Burgesses of Towns and send them to Westminster B. This was a great favour A. I think so and yet it was by many of the Scots especially by the Ministers and other Presbyterians refused the Ministers had given way to the Levying of Money for the payment of the English Soldiers but to comply with the Declaration of English Commissioners they absolutely forbad B. Methinks this contributing to the pay of their Conquerors was some mark of Servitude where entring into the Union made them free and gave them equal Priviledge with the English A. The cause why they refused the Union rendered by the Presbyterians themselves was this That it drew with it a subordination of the Church to the Civil State in the things of Christ B. This is a down-right Declaration to all Kings and Common-wealths in general that a Presbyterian Minister will be a true Subject to none of them in the things of Christ which things what they are they will be Judges themselves what then have we gotten by our Deliverance from the Popes Tyranny if these pretty men succeed in the place of it that having nothing in them that can be beneficial to the Publick except their silence for their Learning it amounts to no more than an imperfect knowledge of Greek and Latin and acquir'd readiness in the Scripture Language with a Gesture and Tone suitable thereunto but of Justice and Charity the manners of Religion they have neither knowledge nor practice as is manifest by the Stories I have already told you nor do they distinguish between the Godly and Ungodly but by Conformity of Design in men of Judgment or by Repetition of their Sermons in the Common sort of people A. But this sullenness of the Scots was to no purpose for they at Westminster Enacted the Union of the two Nations and the Abolition of Monarchy in Scotland and ordained Punishment for those that should transgress the Act. B. What other business did the Rump this year A. They sent St Johns and Strickland Ambassadors to the to Hague to offer League to the Vnited Provinces who had Audiance March the third St. Johns in a Speech shewed those States what advantage they might have by this League in their Trade and Navigations by the use of the English Ports and Harbors the Dutch though they shewed no great forwardness in the business yet appointed Commissioners to treat with them about it but the people were generally against it calling the Ambassadors and their Followers as they were Traytors and Murderers and made such Tumults about their House that their Followers durst not go abroad till the â—tates had quieted them the Rump advertis'd hereof presently recall'd them the Complement which St. Johns gave to the Commissioners at their taking leave is worth your hearing You have said he an Eye upon the Event of the Affairs of Scotland and therefore do refuse the Friendship we have offered now I can assure you many in the Parliament were of Opinion that we should not have sent any Ambassadors to you till we expected your Ambassadors to us I now perceive our Error and that those Gentlemen were in the right In a short time you shall see that business ended when it shall perplex you that you have refus'd our proffer B. S. Johns was not sure that the Scotish business would end as it did for though the Scots were beaten at Dunbar he could not be sure of the Event of their entering of England which happened afterward A. But he guess'd well for within a Month after the Battel at Worcester an Act passed forbidding the importing of Merchandize in other than English Ships The English also molested their Fishing upon our Coast They also many times searched their Ships upon occasion of our War with France and made some of them Prize and then the Dutch sent their Ambassadors hither to desire what they before refus'd but partly also to inform themselves what Naval Forces the English had ready and how the people were contented with the Government B. How sped they A. The Rump shewed now as little desire of Agreement as the Dutch did then standing upon terms never likely to be granted First For the Fishing on the English Coast that they should not have it without paying for it Secondly That the English should have free Trade form Middleburgh to Antwerp as they had before their Rebellion against the King of Spain Thirdly They demanded amends for the old but never-to-be-forgotten business of Amboyna so that the War was already certain though the Season kept them from Action till the Spring following The true Quarrel on the English part was that their proffer'd Friendship was scorn'd and their Ambassadours affronted On the Dutch part was their greediness to ingross all Traffick and a false Estimate of our and their own strength Whilst these things were doing the Reliques of the War both in Ireland and Scotland were not neglected though these Nations were not fully pacified till two years after The Persecution of Royalits also still continued among whom was beheaded one M. Love for holding Correspondence with the King B. I had thought Presbyterian Ministers whilest they were such could not be Royalists because they think their Assembly have the Supreme Power in the things of Christ and by consequence they are in England by a Statute Traytors A. You may think so still for though I called Mr. Love a Royalist I meant it only for that one act for which he was condemned It was he who during the treaty at Vxbridge preaching before the Commissioners there said It was as possible for Heaven and Hell as for the King and Parliament to agree Both he and the rest of the Presbyterians are and were Enemies to the Kings Enemies Cromwel and his Phanaticks for their own not for the King's sake Their Loyalty was like that of Sir John Hotham that kept the King out of Hull and afterwards would have betrayed the same to the Marquess of New-castle These Presbyterians therefore cannot be rightly called Loyal but rather doubly perfidious unless you think that as two
Safety But the City who were averse to the Rump and keen upon a free Parliament could not be brought to give their money to their Enemies and to purposes repugnant to their own whereupon the Rump sent Order to the General to break down the City Gates and their Portcullices and to imprison certain obstinate Citizens This he perform'd and it was the last service he did them About this time the Commission by which General Monk with others had the Government of the Army put into their hands by the Rump before the Usurpation of the Council of Officers came to expire which the present Rump renewed B. He was thereby the sixth part of the General of the whole Forces of the Common-wealth if I had been as the Rump he should have been sole General In such cases as this there cannot be a greater Vice than pinching Ambition should be liberal A. After the pulling down of the City Gates the General sent a Letter to the Rump to let them know that this service was much against his Nature and to put them in mind how well the City had serv'd the Parliament in the whole War B. Yes but for the City the Parliament could never have made the War nor the Rump ever have murdered the King A. The Rump considered not the Merit of the City nor the good nature of the General they were busie they were giving out Commissions making of Acts for Abjuration of the King and his Line and for the Olâ— Engagement and conferring with the City to get Money The General also desir'd to hear a Conference between some of the Rump and some of the secluded Members concerning the Justice of their Seclusion and of the hurt that could follow upon their re-admission and it was granted After long Conference the General finding the Rumps pretences unreasonable and ambitious declar'd himself with the City for a free Parliament and came to Westminster with the secluded Members whom he had appointed to meet and stay for him at Whitehall and re-placed them in the House among the Rumpers so that now the same Cattel that were in the House of Commons in 1640. except those that were dead and those that went from them to the late King at Oxford are all there again B. But this methinks was no good service to the King unless they had learnt better Principles A. They had learnt nothing the major part was now again Presbyterian 'T is true they were so grateful to General Monk as to make him General of all the Forces in the three Nations They did well also to make void the Engagement but it was because those Acts were made to the prejudice of their Party but recalled none of their own Rebellious Ordinances nor did any thing in order to the good of the present King but on the contrary they declar'd by a Vote that the late King began the War against his two Houses B. The two Houses considered as two Persons were they not two of the King's Subjects If a King raise an Army against his Subject is it lawful for the Subject to resist with force when as in this case he might have had Peace upon his submission A. They knew they had acted vilely and sottishly but because they had always a greater than ordinary wisdom and godliness they were loth to confess it The Presbyterians now saw their time to make a Confession of their Faith and presented it to the House of Commons to shew they had not changed their Principles which after six Readings in the House was voted to be printed and once a year to be read publickly in every Church B. I say again this re-establishing of the Long Parliament was no good service to the King A. Have a little patience they were re-established with two Conditions one to determine their sitting before the end of March another to send out Writs before their rising for new Elections B. That qualifies A. That brought in the King for few of the Long-Parliament the Country having felt the smart of their former service could get themselves chosen again This new Parliament began to sit in April 25. 1660. How soon these called in the King with what Joy and triumph he was receiv'd how earnestly His Majesty pressed the Parliament for the Act of Oblivion and how few were excepted out of it you know as well as I. B. But I have not yet observ'd in Presbyterians any Oblivion of the former principles we are but return'd to the state we were in at the beginning of the Sedition A. Not so for before that time though the Kings of England had the right of the Militia in virtue of the Soveraignty and without dispute and without any particular Act of Parliament directly to the purpose yet now after this bloody dispute the next which is the present Parliament in proper and express terms hath declar'd the same to be the right of the King only without either of his Houses of Parliament which Act is more instructive to the people than any Arguments drawn from the Title of Soveraignty and consequently fitter to disarm the ambition of all seditious Haranguers for the time to come B. Pray God it be so howsoever I must confess that this Parliament has done all that a Parliament can do for the security of our peace which I think also would be enough if our Preachers would take heed of instilling evil Principles into their Auditory I have seen in this Revolution a circular motion of the Soveraign Power through two Usurpers from the late King to this his Son for leaving out the power of the Council of Officers which was but temporary and no otherwise owned by them but in trust it moved from King Charles the First to the Long-Parliament from thence to the Rump from the Rump to Oliver Cromwel and then back again from Richard Cromwel to the Rump thence to the Long-Parliament and thence to King Charles the Second where long may it remain A. Amen And may he have as often as there shall be need such a General B. You have told me little of the General till now in the end but truly I think the bringing of his little Army entirely out of Scotland up to London was the greatest Stratagem that is extant in History FINIS