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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A68537	Herod and Pilate reconciled: or The concord of papist and puritan (against Scripture, fathers, councels, and other orthodoxall writers) for the coercion, deposition, and killing of kings. Discouered by David Owen Batchelour of Diuinitie, and chaplaine to the right Honourable Lord Vicount Hadington	Owen, David, d. 1623.	1610 (1610)	STC 18983.5; ESTC S113808	40,852	73

Herod and Pilate reconciled OR THE CONCORD OF PAPIST AND PVRITAN Against Scripture Fathers Councels and other Orthodoxall Writers for the Coercion Deposition and Killing of KINGS Discouered by David Owen Batchelour of Diuinitie and Chaplaine to the right Honourable Lord Vicount HADINGTON Tunc inter se concordant cum in perniciem iusti conspirant non quia se amant sed quia eum qui amandus erat simul oderunt August in Psal 36. concion 2. PRINTED BY CANTRELL LEGGE Printer to the Vniversitie of Cambridge 1610. ❧ TO THE RIGHT HONOVRABLE SIR IOHN RAMSEY Knight Lord Vicount Hadington one of the most Honourable Gentlemen of the Kings Maiesties bed-chamber my singular good Lord and Master I Did suppose my very good Lord that the sembable opposition of Papist and Puritane against the Protestant concerning the supremacie Ecclesiasticall and Deposition of Kings might haue beene constriued into a fewe sheetes of paper which I finde both tedious and intricate because the opponents though they agree against Kings as Herod and Pilate did against Christ are at diuers irreconciliable iarres among themselues And no maruell quia mendacij multiplex diuortium Liers neuer agree in one tale There are among the Papists three different opinions concerning the Popes power ouer Kings The first opinion which a Alexand. Car. de potest Rom. Pontif. lib. 2. c. 9. Alexander Carerius holdeth is that the Pope hath absolute power ouer all the world both in Ecclesiasticall and Politicall things The second opinion is Bellarmines b Bellar. de Pontif. lib. 5. c. 6. who affirmeth that though the Pope haue not meere temporall power ouer Kings and kingdomes directly yet hath he supreame authoritie to dispose of the Temporalities of all Christians as well Kings as others by an indirect prerogatiue tending to the aduancement of the spirituall good The third is the opinion of c Guliel Barclay cont monarchomacos l. 5. cap. 8. Barclayus who auerreth that the Pope hath spirituall power to excommunicate Kings but no temporall authoritie directly or indirectly to afflict the persons of Kings to transpose their kingdomes to perswade forrainers to make warres or subiects to rebell against them And with him agreeth M. Blackwell d In the letter annexed to his large examination at Lambeth p. 157. in his letter to the Romish Catholiques of England wherein he saith that the keyes Ecclesiasticall doe no way extend themselues by Gods law vnto kingdomes terrene to open or shut to tosse or turmoile any of them they haue no wardes in them to turne or ouerturne Kingdomes or to open any lawfull entrance into such disobedient and doubtfull courses Wheresoeuer most noble Lord any Papist hath laid a stepping-stone in this water of strife any man may plainely trace the Puritanes treading Although they denie an vniuersall absolute power ouer all Kings which the Pope claymeth they contend for a nationall soueraigntie in euery kingdome ouer Kings to dispose of them and their kingdomes Although the Popes saith Christopher Goodman e Treatise of obedience pag. 52. 53. for sundrie enormities haue deposed Kings by vnlawfull authoritie the reason that mooued them so to doe was honest and iust and meete to be receiued and executed by the bodie of euery common-wealth haec ille The Statesmen of the kingdome saith f Polit. Christ l 6. c. 3. p. 156. Lambertus Danaeus may punish their King when he transgresseth the fundamentall lawes of the kingdome yea if he be obstinate they may depriue him of his royall dignitie M. Beza g Theses Genevenses p. 249. in a scholasticall disputation one Iohn Iobert beeing Respondent did determine that the officers of State such as are the 7. Electors in the Empire of the Romanes and the Three States in euery Monarchie haue authoritie to represse tyrannous Princes which if they doe not they shall answer before God for their treacherie against the people Dudley Fenner an English Sectarie iumpeth with them He is a Tyrant by practise saith h Sacra Theologia lib. 5 c. 13. Fenner that dissolueth all or the chiefest compacts of the Common-wealth let them that haue that authoritie as the Peeres of the kingdome or the publike assemblie of all Estates make him away vel pacificè vel cum bello either by peaceable practise or open hostilitie Cardinall Bellarmine giueth this reason for the Popes indirect power ouer Kings * De Pontif l. 5. cap. 7. The Ecclesiasticall Commonwealth must be saith he perfect and of it selfe sufficient to attaine vnto the ende whereunto it was ordained for such are all Commōwealths that are well instituted Therfore it ought to haue all necessarie power to attaine to the spirituall end but power to dispose of all temporalties is necessarie to the spirituall end for otherwise euill Kings will foster heretikes and ouerthrow religion wherfore the Church hath this power Haec ille Banosus a Puritane in a tractate of Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall Politie hath the very same reason for the power of the Presbiterie i lib. 2. pag 51. If the Church saith he haue not power by forcible meanes to compell all sorts of men to liue in order this absurditie will follow euen vnder a faithfull magistrate that the Church can not defend her selfe with her owne forces What I pray you will become of the Church when the Magistrate is either an Infidel or so negligent as to suffer euill to be done without punishment and those things which are hallowed to be profaned or remooued Should not the Church be vtterly ouerthrowne in these eases if it had not peculiar right to make powerfull resistance Haec ille I appeale my good Lord to the consciences of all good men whether this reason of Bellarmine and Banosus be not a wicked ouerthwarting of the counsell of God and his gratious prouidence towards the Church yea an open bewraying of their vnquiet hearts and seditious disposition Our Sauiour Christ foreseeing and foreshewing that his Disciples the chiefe pillars of the Church should be brought before Kings hated of the world yea and put to death k Matth 10.18 c 24 ● for his names sake teacheth not to resist or rebell but to abide and l Matth. 24.13 endure not with violence to withstand authoritie but m Luk. 21.19 with patience to possesse their soules This is a remedie against Tyrants and there is no other meanes reuealed in the word of God against persecution then n Matth. 10.23 Desertion if they persecute you in one citie flie to an other or o Psal ●0 15 Praier and Patience Happie p M● 5.11.12 are you when men shall doe all manner of euill vnto you for my names sake reioyce and be glad for great is your reward in heauen Let not man therfore resist their power which God ordained but with all meeknes endure persecution in earth that they may be crowned in heauen Lambertus Danaeus a Puritane of the best note doth freely graunt Bellarmines Thesis viz.

that there is a power in ordine ad spiritualia to punish kings denying his hypothesis viz. that the Pope hath such power This beeing granted saith q Res● Dan 〈◊〉 ad ●ella● de pontif lib. 5. cap. 7. pag. 541. Danaeus that Bellarmine contendeth for it doth not followe that the Bishop of Rome or any other Prelate hath temporall iurisdiction ouer that ciuill Christian Magistrate which doth either enact lawes against the spirituall determination or gouerne the Commonwealth contrarie to the spirituall regiment of the Church We confesse those lawes and that gouernement should be reformed but it ought to be done by the publike assembly by the Parliament of the kingdome or by the Peeres themselues of the whole kingdome Yea in case the king deserue to be deposed the Pope and other Bishops or Priests haue no right to dethrone him * Neither batell better hering Verùm id fieri debet r Idem ibidem pag. 517. à concilio publico à Parliamento regni vel ab ipsis regni ordinibus but that ought to be done by the publike Councell the Parliament of the kingdome or by the Estates of the land Haec ille Thus farre my good Lord they agree in substance touching the punishment and depriuation of Kings though they vary in this point of circumstance whether the Pope the Peeres or the people shall punish or depose them As concerning the third opinion which is for the excommunication of Kings all Presbyteries which are the tribunall seates of Iesus Christ as Beza saith in his book against Erastus do chalenge right and power Theodorus Beza pag. 116. Guli l ●eppetus Discipl Eccl si as Christs immediate Commissaries in earth to excommunicate the chiefe Christian Magistrates as may appeare by these places viz. Beza de Presbyterio pag. 115. Thomas Cartwright Lamb. Danaeu● Gellius Sneca● Thomas Cartwright in his last reply pag. 65. Lambertus Danaeus in his Christian Policy lib. 3. pag. 232. Gellius Snecanus in his booke of discipline pag. 456. Gali●l B●●● Herm Re●●● William Bucanus in his common places of Diuinitie pag. 582. Hermanus Renecherus in his obseruation vpon the first Psalme pag 68. The counter p●●son The humble petition The defence of 〈…〉 The counterpoyson pag. 175. The humble petition to the late Queene pag. 55. And the defence of discipline against M. Bridges pag. 127. And this power haue they put in practise to the glorie of Sion against diuerse kings in the Christian world as the said disciplinarian * pag. ●●8 Champion boasteth in more then insolent manner Consider honourable Lord whether any King may thinke his state secure where euery offence though but suspected doth procure a citation euerie citation doth inforce apparence euery apparence doth vrge confession or inioyne purgation and the least contempt doth breed a contumacie to drawe the greatest censure These Parish-popes shall neuer be able to shewe any record in the sanctuarie or practise of Prelates for a thousand yeares after Christ to warrant this Puritan-popish manner of proceeding against Princes I like well of the opinion in Iohn de Parisijs ſ De potest reg papal cap. 13. Euerie Minister of God must rather submit his life to the Princes pleasure thē admit him to the Sacrament that sheweth manifest tokens of impietie or infidelitie but the Puritans speake not of the Church ministerie but of their Lordly consistorie at the Papists due of the Popes court whom not God but the Deuill and Antich ist hath exalted ouer Kings concerning the power of the Keyes Non quilibet peccator c. Euery offender neither is nor ought to be subiect to the power of the keyes and Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction but the sinner which is subiect thereto And therefore the said power hath no effect except against them that are subiect vnto it which subiection maketh a man fit matter whereupon the power of the keyes hath his effectuall operation Haec ille The politique Puritans meddle not with this dangerous question of Deposing and Killing of Kings but stand aloofe to giue ayme while other desperat archers shoote that if they misse they may step aside to saue themselues or in case the marke be hit they may step in to part the stakes I accuse not without cause M. Beza beeing seriously consulted by some brethern of England whether inferiour officers might not lawfully arme themselues against him who beeing lawfully confirmed Magistrate doth take away the priuiledges and infringe the liberties which he hath sworne to performe to the subiects or doth oppresse them with manifest tyrannie c. returned this fectlesse answer u Beza epist 24. cogitmur 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 We must demurre vpon this point not onely because it is dangerous specially in our time to set open such a window but also for that we may not determine the state of this question simply as you propound it but vpon consideration of many most waightie circumstances x Iraque in hoc Aphrorismo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And therefore for the present we deferre our answer to your demaund Thus Beza demurred at Geneua in communi fratrum ex verbe agro collectorum caetu in the common assembly of the Brethren out of the Citie and Suburbes 25. Iunij Anno Domini 1568. the very yeare before Morton the Popes Nuncio came to England to stirre vp the Peeres of the North against our late Queene for pretended heresie and tyrannie While the proposition was demurred at Geneva the Assumption was framed at Rome and the conclusion practised by traytors in England could not Beza answer why did he not confesse it or if he could why doth he dissemble it It is truth without colour that must direct the conscience and settle the simple desirous to be resolued Dissimulation is but dawbing with vntempered morter ad perdendos homines in sermone mendacij to bring men to destruction with the words of lying and a verie readie way to bring religion to scandale Princes to iealousie and male-contented men to mutinie I haue endeuoured according to my mediocritie of learning to set downe the iudgement of the Church of God in all the former ages concerning the Authoritie of Kings and the Dutie of subiects that the late learning of Papist and Puritane compared with the old doctrine of ancient Orthodoxals may appeare to be as new as it is naught which I offer to your Honourable protection aswell in respect of your dutie to God as of my seruice to your Lordship Your dutie to God for he that hath made you his instrument of honour to saue the Kings life doth require at your hands the maintenance of the Kings right And seeing it hath pleased you to admit me into the number of your servants I hope you will fauourably accept of this my seruice wherein I doe my best endeauour to make vp the gappe against Schisme in the Church and sedition in the State The great God and King

souldiers Then did Egbertus Ex vita Hen. quarti quae habetur in fasciculo rerum sciendarum Coloniae impresso by the Popes encouragement ascend the Imperiall throne whereon he sat but a while for as he stepped aside from his armie into a mill to rest himselfe in the heat of the day he was discouered by the miller to the Emperours friends and lost his life for his labour During this hurly-burly in that state Walthramus a godly Bishop wrote to one Ludovicus an Earle of the Empire diswading him from partaking with the seditious against that good Emperour whom the Pope had deposed Walthram by the grace of God that he is to Lewes the noble Prince with instance of prayer offreth himselfe in all things seruiceable Concord is profitable to euery realme and iustice much to be desired these vertues are the mother of devotion and the consecration of all honestie But whosoeuer seeketh after ciuill dissention and incenseth other to the effusion of blood he is a murtherer partaketh with him who gaping for blood goeth about seeking whō he may deuoure The worthie vessel of election that was taken vp to the third heauen protesteth saying Let euerie soule submit himselfe to the higher power there is no power but from God He that resisteth power resisteth the ordinance of God If that be true which some men prate among women and the vulgar sorte that we ought not to be subdued to the kingly power Then it is false which the Apostle teacheth that euery soule must submit himselfe vnder power and superioritie Epistol Wal. quae habetur in appendice Marian Scot. Can the truth lie did not Christ the Lord speake by the Apostle Why doe we prouoke the Lord are we stronger then he Doth not he thinke himselfe stronger then the Lord that resisteth the ordinance of God seeing there is no power but of God what saith the Prophet Confounded be they that striue against the Lord and they that resist him shall perish Rodolphus Hermanus Egbertus with many other Princes resisted the ordinance of God in Henrie the Emperour but loe they are confounded as though they had neuer beene for as their end was ill their beginning could not be good c. Haec ille Pope Paschalis seeing the bad successe of those seditious subiects which his predecessors Gregorie and Vrbanus had armed against Henrie that worthie Emperour did perswade the Emperours owne sonne against all law of God nature and nations to rebell against his Father The Bishop of Leige tooke the Emperours part against this young Prince for the which he was excommunicate his Church interdicted and Robert Earle of Flaunders commanded by the Pope as he hoped to haue the forgiuenes of his sinnes and the fauour of the Church of Rome to destroie that Bishop and his false preists The Churchmen of Leige terrified with the Popes excommunication and fearing the Earles oppression wrote an apologie for themselues about the yeare 1106. We are excommunicate say they because we obey our Bishop who hath taken part with his Lord the Emperour Epistol Leodiensium apud Simonem Scard These are the beginnings of sorrowe for Sathan beeing loosed compasseth the earth and hath made a diuision betweene the Prince and the Priest who can iustly blame the Bishop that taketh his Lords part to whom he hath sworne allegiance periurie is a great sinne whereof they cannot be ignorant that by newe schisme and nouell tradition doe promise to absolue subiects from the guilt of periurie that forsweare themselues to their Lord the King c. In the progresse of their apologie they determine three great questions first whether the Pope hath power to excommunicate Kings Secondly to whom it belongeth to inflict temporall punishment when Church-men offend against faith vnitie or good manners And thirdly what remedie subiects haue against their kings that are impious or tyrannous Si quis respectu sancti spiritus c. If any man hauing respect to the spirit of God shall turne ouer the old new Testamēt he shall plainly find that kings ought not at all or very hardly be excommunicate whether we consider the etimologie of their names or the nature of their excōmunication Euen till this day hath this point been questioned and neuer determined Kings may be admonished and reprooued by such as be discreete and sober men for Christ the King of Kings in earth who hath placed them in his owne stead hath reserued them to his owne iudgement c. Their answer to the second question is grounded on the testimonie of S. Augustine the practise of Princes and the authoritie of Paul Kings say they and Emperours by their publike lawes haue forbidden heretiques to enioye any worldly possession Wherefore seeing we are no heretiques and that it belongeth not to the Pope but to kings and Emperours to punish heresies why doth our Lord Paschalis send Robert his armourbearer to destroie the possessions and to ouerthrow the villages of the Churches which in case they deserued destruction ought to be destroied by the edict of Kings and Emperours which carie the sword not without good cause c. For answer to the third question they shew by sundrie places of Scripture that there is no other helpe against euill Princes then prayer and patience Nihil modo pro Imperatore nostro dicimus c. We will for the present say nothing in defence of our Emperour but this we say though he were as bad as you report him to be we would endure his gouernment because our sinnes haue deserued such a gouernor Be it we must needs graunt against our will that the Emperour is an Arch-heretike an invader of the kingdome a worshipper of the Simonaicall Idol and accursed by the Apostles and Apostolike men as you say of him euen such a Prince ought not to be resisted by violence but endured by patience and praier Moses brought many plagues vpon Pharaoh whose heart God had hardened but it was by praier and the lifting vp his hands to heauen And S. Paul requireth praiers to be made for all men for Kings and such as are in authoritie which kings were neither Catholikes nor Christians Baruch also from the mouth of the Prophet Ieremie wrote vnto the Iewes which were captiues vnto the king of Babylon that they must pray for the life of Nabuchodonoser the king of Babylon and Balthazar his sonne that their daies in earth may be as the daies of heauen c. Epist 1. eod S. Paul teacheth why we ought to pray for euill kings namely that vnder them we may lead a quiet life It would become an Apostolike man to follow the Apostles doctrine it were propheticall to follow the Prophet c. Thus farre they in their Epistle Apologeticall Vi●● Hen. 4. 〈…〉 He that wrote the life of this Emperour Henrie the fourth aniauncient a modest and an impartiall relator of such occurrents as happened in his time declareth his dislike of the Popes