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A59095 Table-talk, being discourses of John Seldon, Esq or his sense of various matters of weight and high consequence, relating especially to religion and state. Selden, John, 1584-1654. 1696 (1696) Wing S2438; ESTC R3639 74,052 204

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to command that is where he must be obeyed so is every Supream Power and Prince They that stretch his Infallibility further do they know not what 5. When a Protestant and a Papish dispute they talk like two Mad-men because they do not agree upon their Principles the one way is to destroy the Pope's Power for if he hath Power to command me 't is not my alledging Reasons to the contrary can keep me from obeying For Example if a Constable command me to wear a green Suit to Morrow and has Power to make me 't is not my alledging a hundred Reasons of the Folly of it can excuse me from doing it 6. There was a Time when the Pope had Power here in England and there was excellent Use made of it for 't was only to serve Turns as might be manifested out of the Records of the Kingdom which Divines know little of If the King did not like what the Pope would have he would forbid the Pope's Legate to land upon his Ground So that the Power was truly then in the King though suffered in the Pope But now the Temporal and the Spiritual Power Spiritual so call'd because ordain'd to a Spiritual End spring both from one Fountain they are like to twist that 7. The Protestants in France bear Office in the State because though their Religion be different yet they acknowledge no other King but the King of France The Papists in England they must have a King of their own a Pope that must do something in our Kingdom therefore there is no reason they should enjoy the same Priviledges 8. Amsterdam admits of all Religions but Papists and 't is upon the same Account The Papists where e'er they live have another King at Rome all other Religions are subject to the present State and have no Prince else-where 9. The Papists call our Religion a Parliamentary Religion but there was once I am sure a Parliamentary Pope Pope Urban was made Pope in England by Act of Parliament against Pope Clement The Act is not in the Book of Statutes either because he that compiled the Book would not have the Name of the Pope there or else he would not let it appear that they medled with any such thing but 't is upon the Rolls 10. When our Clergy preach against the Pope and the Church of Rome they preach against themselves and crying down their Pride their Power and their Riches have made themselves Poor and Contemptible enough they dedicate first to please their Prince not considering what would follow Just as if a Man were to go a Journey and seeing at his first setting out the Way clean and fair ventures forth in his Slippers not considering the Dirt and the Sloughs are a little further off or how suddenly the Weather may change Popery 1. THE demanding a Noble for a dead body passing through a a Town came from hence in time of Popery they carried the dead Body into the Church where the Priest said Dirgies and twenty Dirgies at four Pence a piece comes to a Noble but now it is forbidden by an Order from my Lord Marshal the Heralds carry his Warrant about them 2. We charge the Prelatical Clergy with Popery to make them odious tho' we know they are guilty of no such thing Just as heretofore they call'd Images Mammets and the Adoration of Images Mammetry that is Mahomet and Mahometry odious Names when all the World knows the Turks are forbidden Images by their Religion Power State 1. THere is no stretching of Power 't is a good Rule Eat within your Stomach Act within your Commission 2. They that govern most make least Noise You see when they row in a Barge they that do drudgery-work slash and puff and sweat but he that governs sits quietly at the Stern and scarce is seen to stir 3. Syllables govern the World 4. All Power is of God means no more than Fides est servanda When St. Paul said this the People had made Nero Emperour They agree he to command they to obey Then Gods comes in and casts a hook upon them keep your Faith then comes in all Power is of God Never King dropt out of the Clouds God did not make a new Emperour as the King makes a Justice of Peace 5. Christ himself was a great observer of the Civil Power and did many things only justifiable because the State requir'd it which were things meerly Temporary for the time that State stood But Divines make use of them to gain Power to themselves as for Example that of Die Ecclesiae tell the Church there was then a Sanhedrim a Court to tell it to and therefore they would have it so now 6. Divines ought to do no more than what the State permits Before the State became Christian they made their own Laws and those that did not observe them they Excommunicated naughty men they suffered them to come no more amongst them But if they would come amongst them how could they hinder them By what Law by what Power they were still subject to the State which was Heathen Nothing better expresses the Condition of Christians in those times than one of the meetings you have in London of Men of the same Country of Sussex-Men or Bedfordshire-Men they appoint their Meeting and they agree and make Laws amongst themselves He that is not there shall pay double c. and if any one mis-behave himself they shut him out of their Company But can they recover a Forfeiture made concerning their Meeting by any Law Have they any power to compel one to pay but afterwards when the State became Christian all the Power was in them and they gave the Church as much or as little as they pleas'd and took away when they pleas'd and added what they pleas'd 7. The Church is not only subject to the Civil Power with us that are Protestants but also in Spain if the Church does Excommunicate a Man for what it should not the Civil Power will take him out of their Hands So in France the Bishop of Angiers alter'd something in the Breviary they complain'd to the Parliament at Paris that made him alter it again with a comme abuse 8. the Parliament of England has no Arbitrary Power in point of Judicature but in point of making Law only 9. If the Prince be servus natura of a servile base Spirit and the Subjects liberi Free and Ingenuous oft-times they depose their Prince and govern themselves On the contrary if the People be Servi Natura and some one amongst them of a Free and Ingenuous Spirit he makes himself King of the rest and this is the Cause of all changes in State Common-wealths into Monarchies and Monarchies into Common-wealths 10. In a troubled State we must do as in foul Weather upon the Thames not think to cut directly through so the Boat may be quickly full of Water but rise and fall as the Waves do give as much as conveniently we can
't is not the eating nor 't is not the drinking that is to be blam'd but the Excess So in Pride Idolatry 1. IDolatry is in a Man 's own Thought not in the Opinion of another Put Case I bow to the Altar why am I guilty of Idolatry because a stander by thinks so I am sure I do not believe the Altar to be God and the God I worship may be bow'd to in all Places and at all times Jews 1. GOD at the first gave Laws to all Manking but afterwards he gave peculiar Laws to the Jews which they were only to observe Just as we have the Common Law for all England and yet you have some Corporations that besides that have peculiar Laws and Priviledges to themselves 2. Talk what you will of the Jews that they are cursed they thrive where e'er they come they are able to oblige the Prince of their Country by lending him Money none of them beg they keep together and for their being hated my Life for yours Christians hate one another as much Invincible Ignorance 1. 'T IS all one to me if I am told of Christ or some Mystery of Christianity if I am not capable of understanding as if I am not told at all my Ignorance is as invincible and therefore 't is vain to call their Ignorance only invincible who never were told of Christ. The trick of it is to advance the Priest whilst the Church of Rome says a Man must be told of Christ by one thus and thus ordain'd Images 1. THE Papists taking away the second Commandment is not haply so horrid a thing nor so unreasonable amongst Christians as we make it For the Jews could make no figure of God but they must commit Idolatry because he had taken no shape but since the Assumption of our Flesh we know what shape to picture God in Nor do I know why we may not make his Image provided we be sure what it is as we say St. Luke took the picture of the Virgin Mary and St. Veronica of our Saviour Otherwise it would be no honour to the King to make a Picture and call it the King's Picture when 't is nothing like him 2. Though the learned Papists pray not to Images yet 't is to be fear'd the ignorant do as appears by that Story of St. Nicholas in Spain A Country-Man us'd to offer daily to St. Nicholas's Image at length by mischance the Image was broken and a new one made of his own Plum-Tree after that the Man forbore being complain'd of to his Ordinary he answer'd 't is true he us'd to offer to the old Image but to the new he could not find in his heart because he knew 't was a piece of his own Plum-Tree You see what Opinion this Man had of the Image and to this tended the bowing of their Images the twinkling of their Eyes the Virgin 's Milk c. Had they only meant Representations a Picture would have done as well as these Tricks It may be with us in England they do not worship Images because living amongst Protestants they are either laugh'd out of it or beaten out of it by shock of Argument 3. 'T is a discreet way concerning Pictures in Churches to set up no new nor to pull down no old Imperial Constitutions 1. THey say Imperial Constitutions did only confirm the Canons of the Church but that is not so for they inflicted Punishment when the Canons never did viz. If a Man converted a Christian to be a Jew he was to forfeit his Estate and lose his Life In Valentines Novels 't is said Constat Episcopus Forum Legibus non habere Judicant tantum de Religione Imprisonment 1. SIR Kenelme Digby was several times taken and let go again at last imprison'd in Winchester House I can compare him to nothing but a great Fish that we catch and let go again but still he will come to the Bait at last therefore we put him into some great Pond for Store Incendiaries 1. FAncy to your self a Man sets the City on Fire at Cripplegate and that Fire continues by means of others 'till it come to White-Fryers and then he that began it would fain quench it does not he deserve to be punish'd most that first set the City on Fire So 't is with the Incendiaries of the State They that first set it on Fire by Monopolizing Forrest Business Imprisoning Parliament Men tertio Coroli c. are now become regenerate and would fain quench the Fire certainly they deserv'd most to be punish'd for being the first Cause of our Destractions Independency 1. INdependency is in use at Amsterdam where forty Churches or Congregations have nothing to do one with another And 't is no question agreeable to the Primitive times before the Emperour became Christian For either we must say every Church govern'd it self or else we must fall upon that old foolish Rock that St. Peter and his Successours govern'd all but when the Civil State became Christian they appointed who should govern them before they govern'd by agreement and consent if you will not do this you shall come no more amongst us but both the Independant Man and the Presbyterian Man do equally exclude the Civil Power tho' after a different manner 2. The Independant may as well plead they should not be subject to Temporal Things not come before a Constable or a Justice of Peace as they plead they should not be subject in spiritual things because St. Paul says It is so that there is not a wise Man amongst you 3. The Pope challenges all Churches to be under him the King and the two Arch-Bishops challenge all the Church of England to be under them The Presbyterian Man divides the Kingdom into as many Churches as there be Presbyteries and your Independant would have every Congregation a Church by it self Things Indifferent 1. IN time of a Parliament when things are under debate they are indifferent but in a Church or State settled there 's nothing left indifferent Publick Interest 1. ALL might go well in the Common-Wealth if every one in the Parliament would lay down his own Interest and aim at the general good If a man were sick and the whole Colledge of Physicians should come to him and administer severally haply so long as they observ'd the Rules of Art he might recover but if one of them had a great deal of Scamony by him he must put off that therefore he prescribes Scamony Another had a great deal of Rubarb and he must put off that and therefore he prescribes Rubarb c. then would certainly kill the Man We destroy the Common-Wealth while we preserve our own private Interests and neglect the publick Humane Invention 1. YOU say there must be no Humane Invention in the Church nothing but the pure Word Answer If I give any Exposition but what is express'd in the Text that is my Invention if you give another Exposition that is your invention
Vertue than Men can possibly perform to make them do their best as if you would teach a Man to throw the Bar to make him put out his Strength you bid him throw further than it is possible for him or any Man else Throw over yonder House 12. In preaching they do by Men as Writers of Romances do by their chief Knights bring them into many Dangers but still fetch them off So they put Men in fear of Hell but at last bring them to Heaven 13. Preachers say do as I say not as I do But if a Physician had the same Disease upon him that I have and he should bid me do one thing and he do quite another could I believe him 14. Preaching the same Sermon to all sorts of People is as if a School-Master should read the same Lesson to his several Forms If he reads Amo amas amavi the highest Forms Laugh at him the younger Boys admire him So 't is in preaching to a mix'd Auditory Obj. But it cannot be otherwise the Parish cannot be divided into several Forms What must the Preacher then do in Discretion Answ. Why then let him use some expressions by which this or that condition of people may know such Doctrine does more especially concern them it being so delivered that the wisest may be contented to hear For if he delivers it altogether and leaves it to them to single out what belongs to themselves which is the usual way 't is as if a Man would bestow Gifts upon Children of several Ages Two Years old Four Years old Ten Years old c. and there he brings Tops Pins Points Ribbands and casts them all in a Heap together upon a Table before them though the Boy of Ten Years old knows how to chuse his Top yet the Child of Two Years old that should have a Ribband takes a Pin and the Pin e'er he be aware pricks his Fingers and then all 's out of Order c. Preaching for the most part is the glory of the Preacher to shew himself a fine Man Catechising would do much better 15. Use the best Arguments to perswade though but few understand for the Ignorant will sooner believe the judicious of the Parish than the Preacher himself and they teach when they dissipate what he has said and believe it the sooner confirm'd by Men of their own side For betwixt the Laity and the Clergy there is as it were a continual driving of a bargain something the Clergy would still have us be at and therefore many things are heard from the Preacher with suspicion They are affraid of some ends which are easily assented to when they have it from some of themselves 'T is with a Sermon as 't is with a Play many come to see it which do not understand it and yet hearing it cry'd up by one whose judgment they cast themselves upon and of power with them they swear and will die in it that 't is a very good Play which they would not have done if the Priest himself had told them so As in a great School 't is the Master that teaches all the Monitor does a great deal of work it may be the Boys are affraid to see the Master so in a Parish 't is not the Minister does all the greater Neighbour teaches the lesser the Master of the House teaches his Servant c. 16. First in your Sermons use your Logick and then your Rhetorick Rhetorick without Logick is like a Tree with Leaves and Blosoms but no Root yet I confess more are taken with Rhetorick than Logick because they are catched with a free Expression when they understand not Reason Logick must be natural or it is worth nothing at all Your Rhetorick Figures may be learn'd That Rhetorick is best which is most seasonable and most catching An instance we have in that old blunt Commander at Cadis who shew'd himself a good Oratour being to say something to his Soldiers which he was not us'd to do he made them a Speech to this purpose What a shame will it be you English-men that feed upon good Beef and Brewess to let those Rascally Spaniards beat you that eat nothing but Oranges and Limons And so put more Courage into his Men than he could have done with a more learned Oration Rhetorick is very good or stark naught There 's no Medium in Rhetorick If I am not fully perswaded I laugh at the Oratour 17. 'T is good to preach the same thing again for that 's the way to have it learn'd You see a Bird by often whistling to learn a Tune and a Month after record it to her self 18. 'T is a hard Case a Minister should be turned out of his Living for something they inform he should say in his Pulpit We can no more know what a Minister said in his Sermon by two or three words pickt out of it than we can tell what Tune a Musician play'd last upon the Lute by two or three single Notes Predestination 1. THey that talk nothing but Predestination and will not proceed in the way of Heaven till they be satisfied in that point do as a Man that would not come to London unless at his first step he might set his Foot upon the Top of Pauls 2. For a young Divine to begin in his Pulpit with Predestination is as if a Man were coming into London and at his first Step would think to set his Foot c. 3. Predestination is a point inaccessible out of our reach we can make no notion of it 't is so full of Intricacy so full of Contradiction 't is in good earnest as we state it half a Dozen Bulls one upon another 4. Doctor Prideaux in his Lectures several Days us'd Arguments to prove Predestination at last tells his Auditory they are damn'd that do not believe it Doing herein just like School-Boys when one of them has got an Apple or something the rest have a mind to they use all the Arguments they can to get some of it from them I gave you some t'other Day You shall have some with me another time When they cannot prevail they tell him he 's a Jackanapes a Rogue and a Rascal Preferment 1. WHen you would have a Child go to such a place and you find him unwilling you tell him he shall ride a Cock-horse and then he will go presently So do those that govern the State deal by Men to work them to their Ends they tell them they shall be advanc'd to such or such a place and they will do any thing they would have them 2. A great Place strangely qualifies John Read was in the right Groom of the Chamber to my Lord of Kent Attorney Noy being dead some were saying how would the King do for a fit Man Why any Man says John Read may execute the Place I warrant says my Lord thou thinkst thou understand'st enough to perform it Yes quoth John Let the King make me Attorney and I would