Interests but onely indirectly and at a distance viz. in ordine ad spiritualia This is very notorious and cannot be denied But is there no difference between Temporal Power and Politie and Ecclesiastical Politie or Government consisting in the exercise of Spiritual Power onely between Temporal Power paramount to all the Power of the Kings of the Earth and Ecclesiastical Politie subject to be many ways limited and regulated by the Civil Power between procuring or advancing Spiritual Interests by such an infinite Temporal Power and Secular Politie and procuring and advancing men's Temporal and Secular Interests by Ecclesiastical Politie or Government onely as the Civil Power shall require or allow Had you told us trâ—ly and plainly what it is that the Church of Rome has openly made its advantage of these differences would have been visible to every eye But then your designe had been spoil'd But you tell us there is a time for all things and so I perceive there is For otherwise we had never been troubled with such a spightful piece of Impertinence not to say Nonsense as you have here given us What you urge from Eph. 4. amounts to no more than a Negative Argument and so deserves not to be consider'd And to the rest of that Paragraph I think enough has been said already You say Commonwealths or Civil Societies and Governments if you will believe the judicious Mr. Hooker are as St. Peter calls them 1. Pet. 2.13 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the contrivance and institution of man c. 'T is well for St. Peter that he has the judicious Mr. Hooker on his side For it seems we should not otherwise have so much reason to believe him And in all Societies instituted by man the Ends of them can be no other than what the Institutors appointed But here you may consider that as St. Peter calls not Commonwealths or Civil Societies as you say but those who administer the Government of them viz. the King or Emperour and Governours sent by him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which you render the Contrivance and Institution of man So St. Paul teaches us that the Supreme Powers are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 order'd disposed or set in their places by God That they are accordingly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Disposition or Ordinance of God And that they bear the Sword and punish them that do evil as the Ministers of God i.e. as appointed and commission'd by him so to do For how they can be his Ministers for that or any other purpose without his appointment and Commission is not to be understood So that if you will believe the Scriptures the Civil Powers or if you please Civil Society and Government are so the Contrivance and Institution of Man as to be withall the Ordinance and Institution of God And as to the judicious Mr. Hooker as you justly call him if you would have it thought that he so referrs Civil Society and Publick Government to the Contrivance and Institution of Man as either to exclude God Almighty from having any hand in it or to leave men to their choice whether they will live in such Society or not or for what Ends they will enter into it The least that can be said is that you do very much mistake him For though he asserts that all Publick Regiment arose from deliberate Advice Consultation and Composition between men judging it convenient and behoveful there being no impossibility in Nature consider'd by it self but that men might have lived without any Publick Regiment And that as to the kinds of Regiment Nature ties not to any one but leaves the choice as a thing arbitrary Yet he asserts withall expresly that we are naturally induced to seek Communion and Fellowship with others and that this was the cause of men's uniting themselves at first in Politick Societies and that the corruption of our nature being presupposed we may not deny but that the Law of Nature does now require of necessity some kind of Regiment By which it appears that how much soever he allows in respect of the particular Forms of Commonwealths or Kiâ—ds of Government to the Choice and Contrivance of Man he derives Civil Society and Government in general from Nature and the Law of Nature and so from God the Author of that Law Now if according to the Scriptures and even to the judicious Mr. Hooker God is the Author and Institutor of Civil Society in general then the Ends of it as your self must grant can be no other than what He has appointed and all that is left to the Choice and Contrivance of Man is onely the framing and modelling Commonwealths and the Government of them as Prudence shall direct for the better attaining the Ends which He has fix'd and prescribed You say St. Peter shews in the place you referr to for what End Commonwealths are instituted viz. for the punishment of evil-doers and the praise of them that do well But you say you do not find any where that it is for the punishment of those who are not in Church-Communion with the Magistrate Nor do I any where say it is But if rejecting the true Religion or declining the Communion of the Church of God be doing evil then they that do so are Evil-doers and then you see what you get by St. Peter's words But you say you are sure the Ends of Commonwealths appointed by the Institutors of them could not be their Spiritual and Eâ—ernal Interests But why not if their Spiritual and Eternal Interests may be promoted by Political Government as I think I have shewn they may Why you say they cannot stipulate about these one with another which I suppose you explain by the following words nor submit this Interests to the Power of the Society or any Sovereign they should set over it Very true Sir But they can submit to be punish'd in their Temporal Interests if they despise or neglect â—â—ose greater Interests Which is all they need to do The News you tell us here from the West-Indies of Comâ—onwâ—alths there wherein in timâ— of Peace no body has any Authâ—rity over any of the Members of tâ—â—m is indeed very wonderful and surprizing For I confess I thouâ—ht before that there could be no Commonwealth without Government nor Government without Authority in some body over those who are to be govern'd To conclude my Argument you tell me has that defect in it which turns it upon my self Because the procuring and advancing the Spiritual and Eternal Interests of Souls my way is not a Benefit to the Society but proper to do more harm than good as you say you have proved already Of which I shall leave the Reader to judge by what has been said to that matter My saying that to argue as the Author does that the Civil Power neither can nor ought in any manner to be extended to the Salvation of Souls because the Care of Souls is not
have God for their Author and Truth for their Standard and how much soever the greatest part of Mankind may be exposed by the Force which is used to make them hearken to the Information and Instruction of Men appointed to it by the Magistrate or those of his Religion to be led into Falshood and Error than they are likely this way to be brought to embrace the Truth which must save them Yet every one sees that it may be true nevertheless that convenient Force used to bring men to the true Religion which is all that I contend for and all that I allow may be very serviceable for that purpose by bringing men to that Consideration which nothing else besides the extraordinary Grace of God would bring them to Which is that which I mean by doing service indirectly and at a distance toward the bringing men to the true Religion and so to Salvation You might therefore for any thing I see have spared the Pains you have here taken to give me a view of the Usefulness of Force my way applied For how confidently soever you tell â—e that it amounts but to the shadow and Possibility of Usefulness but with an overbalancing weight of Mischief and Harm annex'd to it I hope I have sufficiently made it appear that instead of proving this you have onely trifled hitherto and said nothing at all agâ—inst my Assertion Having thus as you imagine or to speak more properly perhaps as you would have it thought destroy'd the Usefulness of Force which I had asserted you go on to new matter of triumph But suppose say you Force applied your way were as useful for the promoting true Religion as I suppose I have shew'd it to be â—he contrary it does not from thence follow that it is lawful and may be used By your savour Sir I think it does follow from thence that Force is not therefore unlawful to be used because it is utterly useless or absolutely impertinent which is all that I was to shew against our Author That being all in effect that he says to prove the unlawfulness of using Force in matters of Religion as has already been made appear against all that you say to the contrary But as to the Lawfulness of such Force as I take to be useful for the promoting the true Religion I must again put you in mind that I do not ground it upon the bare Usefulness of such Force but upon the Necessity as well as Usefulness of it as any man must acknowledge that reads my Answer Where as I shew at large that Force is generally necessary to bring those thaâ— wander to the right Way so I expresly declare that I look upon outward Force to be no fit means to be used either for that purpose or for any other where it is not necessary as well as useful And therefore how useful soever you may suppose it in a Parish that has no Teacher or as bad as none that a Layman that wanted not abilities for it should sometimes preach to them the Doctâ—ine of the Gospel c. yet unless you suppose it necessary withall it will not serve your purpose And that you cannot suppose it necessary is evident because any such Parish may quickly have redress if they will but seek it Whether I have rightly framed the Author's Argument or not has already been consider'd You say further As Force applied your way is apt to make the Inconsiderate consider so Force applied another way is as apt to make the Lascivious chaste c. Thus you see Castration may indirectly and at a distance be serviceable towards the Salvation of men's Souls But will you say from such aâ— usefulness as this that therefore the Magistrate has a right to do it and may by Force make his Subjects Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven Where again I must tell you that unless you will say Castration is necessary as well as apt to make the lascivious chaste this will afford you no advantage Now I suppose you will not say Castration is necessary because I hope you acknowledge that Marriage and that Grace which God denies to none who seriously ask it are sufficient for that purpose But however this is not a like Case For if Castration makes any lascivious person chaste it does it by taking away the Part upon which the Power of offending depends Whereas the Force which I think may be used in order to the â—uring men of destructive Errors concerning the Way of Salvation does not destroy the Possibility of erring by taking away or any way disabling the offending Part but leaves men's Brains safe in their Skulls Indeed if I had said that to cure men of damnable or dangerous Errors it is useful to knock out their Brains the Case had been exactly parallel as far as Usefulness goes But since I say no such thing I hope no man that has any Brains will say it is You add It is not for the Magistrate or any body else upon an imagination of its Usefulness to make use of any other means for the Salvation of men's Souls than what the Author and Finisher of our Faith has directed Which how true soever is not I think very much to the purpose For if the Magistrate does only assist that Ministery which our Lord has appointed by using so much of his Coactive Power for the furthering their Service as common Experience discovers to be useful and necessary for that End there is no manner of ground to say that upon an imagination of its Usefulness he makes use of any other means for the Salvation of Men's Souls than what the Author and Finisher of our Faith has directed 'T is true indeed the Author and Finisher of our Faith has given the Magistrate no new Power or Commission nor was there any need that he should if himself had had any Temporal Power to give For he found him already even by the Law of Nature the Minister of God to the People for good and bearing the Sword not in vain i.e. invested with Coactive Power and obliged to use it for all the good purposes which it might serve and for which it should be â—ound needful even for the restraining of false and corrupt Religion as Iob long before perhaps before any part of the Scriptures were written acknowledged when he said that the worshiping the Sun or the Moon was an iniquity to be punish'd by the Iudge But though our Saviour has given the Magistrates no new Power yet being King of Kings he expects and requires that they should submit themselves to his Sceptre and use the Power which always belong'd to them for his service and for the advancing his Spiritual Kingdom in the World And even that Charity which our great Master so earnestly recommends and so strictly requires of all his Disciples as it obliges all men to seek and promote the good of others as well as their own especially
Government yields And accordingly I say they are instituted for the attaining of all the Benefits which Civil Society or Political Government can yield And this I took to be so plain a Truth that I thought it no great boldness to usher it in with a Doubtless And I confess I am still so much of the same mind that I can hardly believe that any man who has not a very urgent occasion will make any question of it For if what has hitherto been universally acknowledged be true viz. That no Power is given in vain but to be used upon occasion I think a very little Logick may serve a man to draw this Conclusion from it That all Societies are instituted for the attaining all the good or all the benefits they are enabled to attain Because if you except any of those benefits you will be obliged to admit that the Power of attaining them was given in vain Nor will it follow from hence that all Societies are instituted for one and the same End as you imagine it will unless you suppose all Societies enabled by the Powers they are endued with to attain the same End which I believe no man hitherto did ever affirm And therefore notwithstanding this Position there may be still as great a difference as you please between Church and State a Commonwealth and an Army or between a Family and the East-India Company Which several Societies as they are instituted for different Ends so are they likewise furnish'd with different Powers proportionate to their respective Ends. To your next Paragraph after what has already been said I think it may suffice to say as follows Though perhaps the Peripatetick Philosophy may not be true and perhaps it is no great matter if it be not yet the true Religion is undoubtedly true And though perhaps a great many have not time nor Parts to study that Philosophy and perhaps it may be no great matter neither if they have not yet all that have the true Religion duly tender'd them have time and all but Idiotes and Mad-men have Parts likewise to study it as much as it is necessary for them to study it And though perhaps a great many who have studied that Philosophy câ—nnot be convinced of the truth of it which perhaps is no great wonder yet no man ever studied the true Religion with such care and diligence as he might and ought to use and with an honest mind but he was convinced of the truth of it And that those who cannot otherwise be brought to do this should be a little disturb'd and diseas'd to bring them to it I take to be the Interest not onely of those particular persons who by this means may be brought into the way of Salvation but of the Commonwealth likewise upon these two accounts 1. Because the true Religion which this Method propagates makes good Men and good Men are always the best Subjects or Members of a Commonwealâ—h not onely as they do more sincerely and zealously promote the Publick Good than other men but likewise in regard of the favour of God which they often procurâ— to the Societies of which they are Members And 2. Because this Care in any Commonwealth of God's Honour and Men's Salvation entitles it to his special protection and blessing So that where this Method is used it proves both a Spiritual and a Civil Benefit to the Commonwealth You say I speak very improperly or rather very mistakenly if I call such Benefits as may any way i. e. indirectly and at a distance or by Accident be attain'd by Civil or any other Society the Ends for which it is instituted Whereas indeed the Mistake lies on your side which I must now again put you in mind of in thinking that by indirectly and at a distance I mean by Accident in your sense which I no where gave you any occasion to think And therefore I can easily admit that nothing can in reason be reckon'd among the Ends of any Society but what may in reason be supposed to be designed by those who enter into it Though I see no reason why the Author or Institutor of any Society especially of Civil Society may not be supposed to design more than those usually do who enter inâ—o it But what follows from this Why you say No body can in reason suppose that any one enter'd into Civil Society for the procuring securing or advancing the Salvation of his Soul when he for that end needed not the Force of Civil Society So that it seems the reason why the procuring securing or advancing the Salvation of Souls must not be reckon'd among the Ends of Civil Societies is because there is no need of the Force of Civil Society for that End The contrary whereof has I suppose already beâ—n sufficiently made good But whereas I say Doubtless Commonwealths are instituted for the attaining of all the Benefits which Political Government can yield and therefore c. Upon the same Grounds say you thus I reason Doubtless Churches are instituted for the attaining of all the Benefits which Ecclesiastical Government can yield And therefore if the Temporal and Secular Interests of Men may any way be procured or advanced by Ecclesiastical Politie the procuring and advancing those Interests must in all reason be reckon'd among the Ends of Religious Societies and so consequently fall within the compass of Churchmen's Iurisdiction Well Sir I admit the Consequence and do freely own the procuring and advancing the Temporal and Secular Interests of Men to be one of the Ends an inferiour or secundary End of Religious Societies c. And what do you conclude from thence Why The Church of Rome you say has openly made its advantage of Secular Interests to be procured or advanced indirectly and at a distance and in ordine ad spiritualia all â—hich ways if I mistake not English are comprehended under your any way But I do not remember that any of the Reformed Churches have hiâ—herto directly profess'd it But there is a time for all things So that it seems what the Church of Rome has openly made its advantage of I am endeavouring to bring it in at a back-door to the Reformed Churches For that I take to be the thing you would insinuate by these words But what is it I beseech you that the Church of Rome has openly made its advantage of For I confess I do not understand what you mean by Secular Interests to be procured or advanced indirectly and at a distance and in ordine ad spiritualia That some of the Bishops of Rome have made their advantage of a Power they claim'd to dispose of all Secular matters as they thought fit even to the deposing of Kings and Emperours and the bestowing their Dominions on whomsoever they pleas'd And that they claim'd this Power as belonging to them at least as Bellarmine minces the matter not directly and immediately i. e. not for the procuring or advancing men's Secular