gouernement by Bishops not such as you set it forth well let vs procéede Here now we must lay open what power the Pope dooth exercise and what power the Bishops in our Church doo exercise to sée if it be the same or the like Also whether the Bishops doo exercise any power but that which Christ hath giuen to his Church to be exercised by men that is either by Bishops or Presbyteries Touching the Pope he hath vsurped power ouer the whole word of God affirming that the holy scriptures haue no authority as they say vnto vs no certainty for the sense no life but as hee doth giue vnto them And for this cause hee doth take vpon him to expound them as he will contrary to the grammer sense Hee doth take vpon him to dispense with all and to abrogate expresse lawes of God And further he taketh vpon him to make lawes of his owne to bind the fayth and conscience of all men euen as the articles of our fayth doo bind or the expresse doctrine of the sacred Scriptures Hee doth vsurp in sundry things of so high nature apperteming peculiarly to God as that he sheweth himselfe as God The power which the Byshops of our Church do exercise is first in examining approâ—uing and ordaining ministers and authorising them to preach the Gospell Secondly it is in this that they are to sée the orders of the Church for the publick administration duly obserued and so they haue power to excommunicate suspend and depriue c. such as shall transgresse either against doctrine order or in manners Touching lawes they haue not power to make any one not euen in things méete indiff rent neither haue they power to abrogate or to take away any one that is made and by the publick authority of our Church established they can giue no commaundements of their owne That Christ hath giuen power to ordaine ministers and to execute the censures Ecclesiasticall you doo not call into question the controuersie is but by whome this power should bee executed whether by Bishops or by Presbyters If there be an error in the execution of it by Bishops or if there be a fault in the execution by Elders this fault or error dooth not destroy the power it selfe nor yet maketh it Antichristian as ruling ouer the faith and conscience I knowe Master Barrow that ye will here take great exception and say that the chiefe thing is yet behind For as ye charge the presbyteries most heynously in that they take vpon them to decree and ordayne Canons and constitutions vnto which they inioyne obedience in the people so the Bishops execute the lawes and Canons which haue been ordeyned by men though not by themselues the matter is all one Is not this to exercise Lordship and dominion ouer mens faith and conscience About this then must be our speciall question whether Christ hath giuen such a power vnto the Church as to make lawes or Cannons in externall matters which wee call things indifferent And whether the vrging men to kéepe them be not to take away Christian libertie and so to rule ouer the faith and conscience I knowe this question is hard to bee discussed to make euery simple man vnderstand the matter You Master Barrow and Master Greenwood are most blind in it I wish the reader to obserue because it is one maine rocke vpon which ye are runne And crye out what ye can that I like a marked seruant of Antichrist like a graceles man that hath his conscience seared with a hot Iron doo change yee wrongfully yet it shall bee euident that by seeking an Annabaptisticall freedome ye do abridge the power of the Christian Magistrate and of the Church To come therefore vnto the matter that which S. Iames sayth must first stand sure namely That there is one lawgiuer which is able to saue and to destroy Iam. 4. vers 12. Hereupon it is most sure that God alone hath Lordship ouer the conscience of man to binde the faith and conscience For looke what God hath by his lawe commaunded to bee done it is good it is holie no King nor the whole Church can make any part of it euill or commaund it not to be done Looke what God hath forbidden to be done that same is euill and vnholy no King nor yet the whole Church can make it good and holy or command it to bee done I say further that the law of God is so absolutely perfect that there is no righteousnes for men but it is therein conteyned neyther is there any vnrighteousnes but it is therein forbidden Wherefore they which take vpon them to make lawes to binde the conscience eyther by abrogating or by adding commit most high and blasphemous sacriledge of which the whole poperie is to be condemued But now there are certayne middle actions and things which we call indifferent because if we simply respect them in themselues or in their owne nature they bee neither good nor euill In these consisteth one part of Christian libertie to vse or not to vse with knowledge and discretion Now if we respect the very nature of these things no Prince or church can change it as to make them to become necessarily good or necessarily euill in themselues to the conscience And therefore touch not tast not handle not Coloss 2. vers 21. making the outward indifferent things vncleane to the conscience is to vsurpe an Antichristian power ouer the conscience euen agaynst God Also to make those externall things to be of necessitie to the conscience is to lay a yoake of bondage and agaynst this wee are willed to stand fast in the freedome wherewith Christ hath made vs free Gal 5. vers 1. Hetherto Master Barrow I thinke yée will agree with me But now touching the externall vse of these things either for Princes to make politick lawes to commaund the vse or to restraine the vse of them or for the Church to make Cannons and constitutions to commaund or restrayne the vse as shall serue for order and comelines therein lieth our disagreement and therein ye pleade for your Annabaptisticall freedome and confusion I meane that ataxia or ouerthrowe of all order First ye call it a subtill distinction which Master Caluine vseth of the externall or ciuill Court and the Court of conscience in your discouerie pag. 88. And you say Master Caluine hauing very truely set downe that it is heinous presumption in any mortall man to restrayne or make lawes of such things as the Lord hath left in libertie hee straight way least he should keepe backe ciuill Magistrates from receiuing the Gospell inuenteth a politick distinction betwixt the ciuill court and the court of conscience saying that this outward court respecteth men onely and bindeth not the conscience of the doer the other concerneth matters belonging vnto God and therefore bindeth the conscience Thus hath he both lost and entangled himselfe and vtterly ouerthrowne all his former doctrine pag. 93. In pag. 247. of
seruants Gods witnesses that the Churches and their ministers did vnchristianly reuile them and their glorious sufferings For I haue giuen yee none other tearmes then the Churches gaue them And if in the chiefe poynts of Donatisme ye be not full Donatists and so holde sundry poyntes of Annabaptisme being fallen into their tents and as outragiously fighting against all Churches and with the same weapons that they did and with as blinde fury condemning them as those other let me be accounted for no better indéede than a lying Prophet Your words are many and great are your outcries but let vs see how well ye defend and cleare your selues by them from this most wicked intrusion into Gods office I set down first against ye that he doth wickedly and proudly thrust himselfe into Gods office which taketh vpon him to iudge and condemne any one man to be no true Christian which holding the place and dignitie of a brother in Gods Church and professing the fayth soundly studieth to please God for the common errors and frailties vnto which euen the most perfect are subiect because the holy scriptures speaking of the regenerate haue these sayings We know but in part 1. Cor. 13. who vnderstandeth his errors Psal 19. And in many things wee sinne all I am 3. Then how much more intollerable is their wicked presumption and intrusion into Gods office which take vpon them vtterly to condemne as quite separate from Christ all the assemblies in a kingdome which professing the Gospell haue many particuler members in them that earnestly indeuour to please God and are not spotted with any grosse errors or notorious offences Then further doe I alleadge that as a brother hath his place and dignitie in a Christian assemblie so our Church of England hath her place and dignitie among all the godly Churches which for the fayth that shee doth together with them publiquely professe and sincerely in all the principles and grounds of the holy Christian religion doe not only allow her the place but also do regarde and loue her giuing vnto her the dignitie of a sister yea euen of a mother in Israel because shee hath not beene barren but hath brought forth many deare children to God and not a few of them crowned with martyrdome Ye haue not Master Barrow answered one worde vnto al this but haue with déepe silence slipt past it But ye say He that is in his conscience conuinced of errors and doth persist in them is wilfully obstinate and so euidently declareth that he hath no faith And in this case yee say is the Church of England it holdeth errors and is conuinced in them and yet persisteth to defend and teach the same and therefore it is quite seperated from Christ Agaynst this I set downe that a brother offending is not to be iudged so wilfully obstinate as that he is to be cast forth and condemned to be but as an heathen because he is conuinced of his sinne and error by priuate admonitions and doth persist but when the admonition and censure of the Church is despised For our Sauiour sayth not If hee will not heare thee count him as an heathen or if thou take one or two with thee and â—e will not heare them But if he will not heare the Church then let him be vnto thee as an heathen Math. 18. This ye haue not answered for ye can shew no place in Gods word where this power is giuen to priuate men but onely to the Church And yet persist in this most horrible intrusion forgetting the precept Judge not that ye be not iudged Math 7. and he that condemneth his brother condemneth the lawe and thou condemnest the law thou art not an obseruer of the law but a Iudge Iam. 4. vers 11. And therefore we must heare enter into a larger discourse about it I will first sâ—t downe that which yee bring to mayntayne your doing We doubt not say you neither euer thought but the best Church that consisteth of mortall men may fall either of negligence or ignorance into grieuous offences and dangerous errors yea wee doubt not but that some famous Churches and Christians may fall into such errors as he teâ—meth fundamentall the holding whereof should vtterly subuert the faith As in the Church of Corinth Galatia and Asia there were c. But this wee holde withall that no true Church or Christian will maintaine any sinne or error when it is euidently shewed and conuinced vnto them by the word of God c. To your second charge we answer that wee haue learned to put difference betwixt error and heresie All good men as is sayd doo and may erre but no good man will defend or persist in his error when it is shewed and conuinced vnto him Obstinacie ioyned vnto error after it is duely conuinced maketh heresie Further we say that any error being obstinatly holden and taught after it is duely reprooued and conuinced vnto him maketh an heretick and heresie in that partie or in that congregation that so holdeth and teacheth it doth separate from the faith and communion of Christ Wherefore we can but wonder at your ignorance who stand for a teacher in your Church and yet hold some errors obstinatly held and taught agaynst the trueth of GOD not to be heresies or at the least not to be fundamentall c. In these words Master Barrow which I doubt not ye will acknowledge lieth the whole defence and cléering of your selues from that wicked and presumptuous intrusion into Gods office which I haue layd to your charge I am sure that in your imagination ye vtter in them most diuine vndoubted principles or els how could yee bring in your conclusion of such wonder at mine ignorance standing for a Teacher in our Church Then must we stand and wonder each at other for I doo indeed greatly wonder to see how strong the illusions of Satan be when he is turned into the likenes of an Angell of light that such men as you taking vpon ye not to stand as teachers in some particular Churches but to controule all Churches and all the learned teachers that haue been since the Apostles as if yee were sent from heauen with speciall knowledge aboue all others should in so fewe words bewray so much confused palpable ignorance and absurd errors In very deede vnder this streame of words lieth one of the chiefe rocks vpon which ye are runne and against which ye cause many a simple soule to dash with great hazard leading them into the same wicked presumption agaynst God which your selues are fallen into The reader shall see plainly that here is no cléering your selues from that foule intrusion into Gods office vnlesse the heaping vp of errors may be déemed cléering I will begin first with the difference which ye say ye haue learned to put betwixt error and heresie The onely difference which ye make is the obstinate persisting in it and teaching it after it is conuinced vnto him
that erreth Which is nothing els indeede but confusedly in stead of putting difference betwixt error and beresie to note the difference betwixt a man that erreth in simplicitie and an hereticke In deed because S. Paule sayth That an hereticke is peruerted and sinneth condemned of himselfe Tit. 3. And that such cause offences and diuisions contrary to the wholesome doctrine which we haue learned Rom. 16. We hold them not hereticks vnlesse they bee conuinced and obstinatly despise the iudgement of God and the iudgement of the Church conuincing them by the light of the word and seeke to peruert others and to draw them into their faction But will it hereupon followe that no error is of it selfe an heresie vnlesse it light into such a man as obstinatly will holde and teach it Or that euery error euen the least by obstinacie of man ioyned with it becommeth heresie Then you say thus in effect euery error is an heresie no error is an heresie This Master Barrow is your déepe skill which ye boast of that ye haue learned for if the man put the difference by his obstinacie it must needes be so Then let me aske ye where ye haue learned yâ— to deny the vnitie of the Godhead is not an heresie or yâ— trinitie of persons in the same or to deny that Christ is God or that he is man vnlesse the man that erreth in them be conuinced and found obstinate Are not these and such like heresies in themselues although the men that erre in them be not conuinâ—â—â—â—â—t hold them ignorantly Agayne shew vs where ye haue â—â—â—rned that euery error euen to the least being in an hereticke becommeth an heresie Thus may the reader see how confusedly ye haue put that to distinguish errors which doth but distinguish betweene the men that doo erre In the next place where you say that the error must be duely conuinced vnto the conscience of the man that erreth before he can be so wilfully obstinate as doth separate him from the faith and from the communion of Christ ye speake some trueth but ye speake ye knowe not what For it ye could see it is so farre from cléering ye from presumptuous intrusion into Gods office that it vtterly ouerthroweth ye and your former words and somewhat which ye write elsewhere in this booke being laid with it becommeth a very snare for to hold ye Ye haue accused the Church of England condemned and cast her foorth for wilful obstinacie as quite separated from Christ now let vs see how duely ye haue conuinced out whole Church all the assemblies and all the particular members in the same and found them hereticks First remember your owne words in this place that ye doubt not neither euer thought but that the best Church which consisteth of mortall men may fall either of negligence or ignorance into grieuous offences and dangerous errors and that some famous Churches and Christians may fall into such errors as I terme fundamentall c. Touching the faults which you charge the Church of England withall in our worship in our people in our Ministrie and gouernment Ecclesiasticall albeit in the whole course of your writings your speaches be merueilous excessiue yet in the 180 181 182. pages of this your booke agaynst me ye plainly confesse them to bee such as right excellent Christians haue ignorantly erred and dyed in For speaking of those which suffered death for religion in our Church ye call them godly Martyrs saying that ye doubt not of their happie and blessed estate all their sinnes and these false offices and ministrie which they executed in their ignorance among the rest being forgiuen them These be your owne words Master Barrow which I haue set downe You acknowledge them to bee godly blessed Martyrs they erred you say in these things but of simplicitie through ignorance If those principall men were ignorant in these matters then is it no meruaile if all the rest in the land were ignorant in them which imbraced the Gospell Vpon this it followeth that the Church of England was or might bee a true Church vntill such time as she was duely conuinced of â—er errors and found obstinate And if she hath not been duely conuinced and found in such wilfull obstinacie as doth quite separate from the faith and from the communion of Christ then is she still or may bee the true Church hauing it may bee for ought that you knowe and there is no likelihood to the contrarie many thousands in her which are readie to shed their bloud for the holy Gospell of Christ And then how wicked and how accursed is your presumption in condemning her vtterly Nay say you but she is conuinced and all your assemblies and found so wilfully obstinate in maintayning her errors euen against her knowledge that she hath forfaited the couenant and is separated from the communion of Christ This is your bare accusation you may not cary away the matter so for then indeede ye may easily cleare your selues from wicked intrusion into Gods office but wee must examine 〈◊〉 ye graunt there must be a due conuincing first what it 〈…〉 be duly conuinced then when and by whome she hath been â—â— such sorte or so duly conuinced as ye charge her and yet found obstinate This is the rule that one brother offending is not to loose the dignitie and place of a Christian and to be reputed as an heathen vntill such time as he bee conuinced by the Church and found so obstinate that he doth despise her iudgement and authoritie This is the onely due conuincing and here is the onely power to east foâ—rth as heathen a man in some offence conuinced And shall not a Church haue as great priuiledge as a man Is it not more then absurd to say one man cannot be cast foorth as an heathen for obstinacie in some offence agaynst priuate admonitions but whole Churches may All the true Churches haue conuinced the Church of Rome and condemned her as obstinate not in some light offences in which true Christians may erre but as most blasphemous and Idolatrous against the principles of fayth and grounds of Religion teaching that no Christian man ought to ioyne with her But what Churches are they which haue conuinced the Church of England of such errors and found her so obstinate that they haue condemned her and willed all men to forsake her O M. Barrow you shall finde that all the godly Churches are so farre from this that contrariwise they acknowledge her for a sister Looke then againe vpon your horrible presumption and see who hath giuen you such power aboue and agaynst all Churches If ye minde obstinately to persist in your euill without warrant and euen agaynst this manifest worde of God being much better ye should fall downe and bewayle your vngodly wayes and seeke for pardon ye haue no way to shift or to colour your wickednes but this that men may bee conuinced of error by particular persons and that so
hath the Church of England beene duly conuinced It is out of all doubt that men which erre may â—e conuinced by any particular persons whatsoeuer for it is the power and light of Gods word onely which conuinceth but that which maketh men to be cast forth as heathen for obstinacie when they are conuinced is not as I haue shewed obstinacie agaynst pryuate admonitions but the despising the iudgement and power of the Church when she hath conuinced and reproued So that your passage is here agayne stopped and ye are cut off but yet I will follow ye in this yeelding this scope to see when or who they be of particular persons which haue duely conuinced the Church of England and al her assemblies of such errors First for the martyrs in our Church yee haue set them vpon the shore safely landed out of all danger of wilfull obstinacie for pag. 181. thus ye write These godly martyrs so lately escaped out of the smoakie furnace of the popish Church coulde not so clerely discerne and sodainely enter into the heauenly and beautifull order of a true established Church And those godly men being so vnexpert and vnexercised in his heauenly worke neuer hauing long liued in seen or heard of any orderly communion of Saints any true established Church vpon the earth of so many hundreth yeares neuer since the generall defection of Antichrist no meruaile I say if they erred in setting vp the frame But what then should we persist in their errors especially should we reiect the true patterne of Christs Testament c. Thus farre be your wordes Master Barrow in which the reader may see that ye haue as I say landed those godly men out of all daungers which set vp the frame of our Church because they did as you say nay they could see no better But our Church now can not be excused because she hath reiected the heauenly patterne being brought Indéede I am of this minde to answere your wordes as they lye that right excellent men come short in some things about the ordering of Gods Church and especially at the beginning because time is a teacher But those men were not so blinde as you make them or so vnexpert in the heauenly worke Many of them liued long after they came out of popery They did read the scriptures both for other poynts of doctrine and for the gouernement and all the auncient histories of the Church and in my iudgement might haue bâ—en able in those dayes after twenty years separatioÌ„ froÌ„ popery to see as much as some in these dayes that haue béen but foure or fine yeares from the Bowling Alleyes Agayne I am of this mind that when any error in the Church appeareth it ought if it can bee brought to passe to be reformed And that they doo greeuously sinne which reiect the truth agaynst their knowledge and conscience to the dammage of Gods people but there lieth the matter howe you can proue that our Church is conuinced We must see who they bee that haue layd this patterne which ye speake of before her which was not layd before those blessed martyrs and conuinced here let vs come to the matter In some Ceremonies and in the manner of gouernment our Church doth differ from other Churches Those Churches indéede haue shewed their reasons why they vse not such ceremonies and gouernment but yet they condemne not our Church for not being perswaded by them for they do know that in some matters of controuersie it falleth out often that men may thinke they haue truth and be deceiued also that the truth may be shewed and yet men that erre not conuinced in their conscience vnto whom it is shewed This is your great ignorance Master Barrow which imagine that so soone as a truth is shewed in any matter the partie that erreth is by and by conuinced in his conscience There were thousands in the Church of Ierusalem Act. 21. which erred groslie about the retayning the ceremoniall law and the holy Apostles were driuen to beare with them when they could not perswade them from it and that many yeares And who can conuince errors like the blessed Apostles And you must consider here further that euen those marryrs in our Church whom you so fully cleare had the same paterne layd before them then which our Church hath had layd before her since for they did know that there was another forme of gouernement vsed at Geneua and in some other places and they did not onely reade their writings which shewed the reasons for the same but also some of them as Bishop Hooper and Archdeacon Philpot were trauailers euen to that ende and purpose and liued in some did see if not al yee some number of the reformed Churches beyond the seas Moreouer the rest of the martyrs had here among them out of diuers reformed Churches as Peter Martyr Bucer Fagius Alasco and others Howe ignorantly then and how falsely Master Barrow doo ye affirme that those godly martyrs had neuer liued in seene nor heard of any orderly communion of Saints any true established Church If those martyrs had the very same patterne layd before them which hath béene layd since before our Church and were not conuinced Peradunture you will say it was nothing so fully and so clearely brought and layd it before the martyrs as it hath been layd before our Church Then if I demaund here who they be that haue more fully and more clearely layd this patterne before our Church and thus conuinced her whether your selues alone or partly your selues and partly others I suppose yee will take it but in parte vnto your selues let vs then begin with these other and then come to you The Church of England at the first as you coÌ„fesse set vp the frame as they were perswaded in conscience to be very right and agréeable to Gods word Since that there hath risen controuersie at home about some Ceremonies and obseruations and about the gouernement Reasons and allegations haue beene brought to shew that there be hurtfull things amisse in both and many are perswaded But now the visible Church of England the prince and all those which excercise the chiefe power therein haue stood and doe stand resolute that the ceremonies and obseruations are agreeable to Gods worde or at the least not contrary but tollerable and that gouernement is such as is by Gods word most fit and profitable for our Church They stand vpon their reasons and allegations for this And many thousands in the land both men and women which professe the Gospel and fayth of Christ either know not what the things in controuersie or if they doe knowe them yet are perswaded that our worship and gouernment are right Tell me then M. Barrow seeing ye confesse the martyrs were not conuinced how you know for certainetie that all these are conuinced in their conscience because matters haue béen more fully opened and so continue wilfully obstinate against the knowen truth Hath God giuen
therefore the Epistle to the Galathians is spent in declaring the righteousnes by fayth and ouerthrowing the righteousnes by the law The Church in Ierusalem obserued the ceremonies not placing righteousnes in them but to the end that God had ordayned them to shadow out heauenly things being ignorant in this that they were ordayned but vnto the time of correction as the holy Ghost speaketh Hebr. 9. And therfore in that Epistle to the Hebrues there is no charging or blaming of them touching the matter of iustification but onely a reducing of them from that fore sayd error in which they did stick â—â— long When Saint Paule speaketh of obseruing the ceremonies which was but at sometimes as occasion fell out 〈◊〉 so farre from deeming it a fault that hee reckoneth it among his vertues and sayth to those that are vnder the lawe I became as if I were vnder the law that I might win those that are vnder the law 1. Cor. 9. The Synagogue of Antichrist in more haynous and detestable manner then the false Apostles against the Crosse of Christ euen against the righteousnes by fayth in his blood obserue dayes and times and a number of ceremonies of their owne inuention by which they seeke remission of 〈…〉 and the merite of eternalllife Our Church doth renounce and accurse all such doctrine neither doe we maintaine any Iudaisme And touching the paying of tithes that I may conclude this poynt if I say there might bee somewhat morall in it though it were annexed to the Lâ—uiticall Priesthood I doe not see how you shall be able to disprooue the same In the visitation of the sick there is a forme of absolution set downe Thus you Master Barrow write agaynst it Let the Reader vnderstand that nothing can be more popish and blasphemousthen it is wherein a sacrilegious priest taketh vpon him by the authoritie committed vnto him to absolue the sick from all his sinnes Hath any mortall man power to forgiue sinnes Or is it not the office of God alone Hath the priest power to forgiue all sinnes such as are not made vnto him what horrible blasphemie is this to him that hath power to forgiue all sinnes to him we may make our prayers and supplications him onely may we worship Hath the greatest minister of the Church any more power to retayne or loose the sinne of the least member then the sayd member hath to binde or loose his sinne Doth not this rule of our Sauiour Christ as well extend vnto him as vnto the least in the Church If thy brother sinne agaynst thee rebuke him and if hee repent forgiue him Luke 17. 3. Hath not the Church power to reprooue and cast out their Pastor if he deserue Is not all this binding and loosing done by the worde of God and not by any power or excellencie of man Hath not the word of God the like power and effect against sinne in the mouth of the least of Gods seruants as in the mouth of the greatest Let this collect then whereby the priest in their leiturgie by the power committed to him absolueth the sick of all his sinnes remaine one witnes among many other of their popery and vntill more come of most high blasphemie Thus farre be your wordes Master Barrow Then this absolution you say nothing can be more popish or blasphemous you cry out at it as horrible blasphemie And will haue this collect remaine as one witnes of most high blasphemie If it be so I haue done you great wrong by charging you as false accusers But in very deede while you go about to make the Reader vnderstaÌ„o that nothing can be more popish or blasphemous yea that it is horrible and most high blaspeâ—ie you bewray so darke ignorance and confusion as I think wee may tearme deepe horrible as shal appeare by the reasons you bring But now for this absolution take this by the way that I doo not vndertake to dispute vpon or to iustifie euery circumstance thereof as namely the vndisâ—reet and vnskilfull dealing of some that may practize it but onely deale about the substance of the matter it selfe against which your reasons are brought to prooue it to be popery and blasphemie You aske first Hath any mortall man power to forgiue sinnes or whether it be not Gods office alone Why Master Barrow will you denie that mortall men haue power to forgiue sinnes doth not our Sauiour Christ say vnto his Apostles Whose sinnes ye shall forgiue they are forgiuen and whose sins ye shall retayne they are retayned Ioh. 20. ver 23. Dare you contradict the flat testimonie of the scripture And for your other question it is most certayne and the contrary cannot bee held without blasphemie and sacriledge that God onely hath power and authority to forgiue sinnes if we respect the author of forgiuenes And men doo but in his name and from him as ministers bring the same vnto vs. If wee respect the thing iâ— selfe it is peculiar vnto the most high God but the ministrie is his hand by which he reacheth it foorth vnto vs and therefore they bringing the message and word of reconciliation are adorned with this title that they forgiue and retayne sinnes yet â— is but instrumentall It is most vndoubted that God alone doth begethis Children by the immortall seede of his worde And yet Saint Paul sayth to the Corinthians that he was their Father and that he begat them All this is but ministeriall God is robbed of no honour You demaund whether the priest hath power to forgiue all sinnes such as are not made vnto him I answere that the minister of the Gospel is the minister of reconciliation I meane to bring it and hath power to forgiue all sinnes annexed to his ministrie or rather it is the fruite and effect and power of his ministrie in deliuering the promises You seeme to speake of forgiuing of trespasses which are done against our selues which declareth also your want of skill as namely that you know not what this is whose sinnes ye shall forgiue they that are forgiuen We may make our prayers vnto him worship him only that hath power to forgiue all sinnes This is true if we looke to the author of this grace which is God alone But not when we looke to those which are but ministers and the earthen vessels in which this treasure is brought You aske whether the greatest minister in the Church hathanie more power to retayne or loose the sinne of the least member then the sayd member hath to binde or loose his sinnes And then you bring certaine reasons to prooue that he hath not any more power then the least member Is it not a straunge thing Master Barrow that such geare should come from you will you take away the whole efficacie and power of the ministrie which Christ hath ordayned By the ministers of the Gospell as I sayd before God sendeth the word of reconciliation they be his hand by which he
doth reach it foorth vnto vs when they preach the glad tidings or deliuer the promise of free pardon vnto all that shall beleeue in Christ crucified and deliuer the seales of the doctrine euen Baptisme and the holy Supper God doth accompanie the ministration of these things by his spirit so dooth ratifie the same For which cause the ministrie of the Gospell is called the ministrie of the spirit 2. Cor. 3. The spirit of the Lord giueth vs our freedome by loosing the bonds of our sinnes when through faith wee lay hold of the promise And hee that beleeueth not is still bound Then when Christ sayth Whose sinnes ye shall forgiue they are forgiuen and whose sinnes ye shall retaine they are retained This is the sense that to those whom God doth send publishing the Gospell and setting to the seales in those which imbrace it and so bringing free pardon of sinnes he doth communicate this honour which belongeth to himselfe that they are sayd to forgiue sinnes As I sayd before he giueth away nothing herein from himselfe because it is not giuen vnto them as to the authors of the pardon but as to the instruments and ministers by whome hée doth reach it foorth as by his hand and by whose ministrie hee doth ratifie yâ— same vnto vs. Likewise wheÌ„ they denounce iudgment agaynst the impenitent he doth confirme it What do you tell vs then of that rule of admonishing and pardoning Luk. 17. These be things differing It is also very true that the power of binding and loosing is wholly from the word not depending vppon the excellencie of any man and that the dignitie and power of the word if wee respect it in it selfe is all one out of whose mouth so euer But yet Master Barrow you should knowâ— that it is Gods ordinance and good pleasure to giue a special operation and power vnto it by the ministrie Baptisme doth seale vp the forgiuenes of our sinnes and hath he not ordayned that this seale shal be set to by the ministry I would you saw how â—old your ignoraÌ„ce hath made you euen agaynst Gods ordinance as to giue no more efficacie vnto the word in the mouth of the moâ—t excellent minister then in the mouth of any true Christian Your other demaund is to no purpose seeing nothing doâ—th binde or loose but onely the word and the binding or loosing by men is no more but when men by authoritie from God in a ministrie which hee dooth ratifie pronounce remission of sinnes or iudgement rightly according to the word as the word pronounceth Shall we then beleeue that euery true Christian hath the same and equall power of binding and loosing that Paule or Peter had You say so and would prooue it and not onely haue here set downe your blinde reasons but in your other booke which you entitle a briefe discouerie of the false Church and in the page 124. You say that by the place Iohn 20. wee cannot prooue this power of binding and loosing to bee giuen onely to the Apostles there being many disciples both men and women in the place when Christ gaue it This appearing indeed of our Sauiour was the same day at night in which hee rose from the dead as the Euangelists do expressely declare It is plaine also by S. Luke 24. 33. that there were some other with the Apostles when he appeared vnto them But yet Master Barrow consider the place well and if there be any forehead remayning it will make you blush a little at your owne bolde speach when you say that to challenge the power of binding and loosing as giuen or annexed to the ministrie by these words whose sinnes ye remit c. is by an old worthles title For was the Commission of the Apostleship giuen vnto all that were there both men and women Because you say There were both men and women there besides the Apostles and that he gaue the power of binding and loosing vnto them all alike and sayd vnto them all whose sinnes ye shall remit they are remitted c. Marke all his words together Agayne Peace be with ye as the father hath sent me so I send you And when he had said this he breathed vpon them and sayd receaue the holy Ghost Whose sinnes ye shall remit they are remitted and whose sinnes ye shall retaine they are retained Did he say to all there present yea euen to the women as the father hath sent me so I send you I pray ye whether sent he the women vpon that message vpon which he was sent by the father These former words are onely to the Apostles vpon whome hee layeth the charge or the ambassage which his father had committed vnto him As Paule 2. Cor. 5. declareth that the Apostles were Ambassadors from GOD in Christs stead If you will shame then to say that Christ layd the charge which the father committed to him vpon the women as you say there were some women there and it is not vnlike or if you dare not affirme that the women are sent vpon this ambassage to be Apostles which is in these former words as the father sent me so I send you how dare you say the latter words are spoken vnto all For to those onely he sayth receaue the holy Ghost whose sinnes ye shall remit they are remitted To whom he had sayd As the father hath sent me so I send you And tell me Master Barrow is there not some part of this power of loosing or remitting sinnes by the Sacraments I meane doâ— not the Sacraments effectually seale vnto vs the remission of sinnes And is that power committed to any but Ministers Hath God giuen a power to the Ministers aboue other to set to the seales and no power aboue others in deliuering the word of the couenant which is sealed It is no meruaile that you dare goe about to ouerthrowe all the power of the Ministrie of the Gospell which Saint Paule setteth foorth to be so glorious 2. Cor. 3. in affirming that the greatest Minister hath no more power to binde the least member then the sayd member hath to binde him when you are thus grosly ignorant as to affirme that our Sauiour spake those words vnto women Whose sinnes ye shall forgiue c. Ioh. 20. and see not that God hath ratified a power of deliuering the word and Sacraments by a ministrie which hee vseth as his hand reached foorth vnto vs. They that will further and more fully see into this wicked error of yours must looke vpon that which the learned haue written agaynst the Swinckfeldians about the same And now Master Barrow to come to the very poynt indeed that is in controuersie betweene you and me I wished that you were as weary of lying and slandering as you should bee in seeking vntill you should finde one blasphemie or heresie in all the Collects of the booke and therefore you haue here gathered together a whole packe You tell me first that I haue in
imbrace the Gospell when you giue them the names of those vile beasts and birds and especially when as this your most vile reproach reacheth not alone vnto all the assemblies in England but also vnto all the holy Churches which haue imbraced professe the glorious Gospell For all the Churches haue the Psalmes in meeter which they sing in their publick assemblies and their prescribed leiturgies which ye make so horrible Moreouer yâ— people in other Churches you make to be but prophane multitudes as in the assemblies of England as we shall afterward see where you charge master Caluine at Geneua that with ignorance and rashnes and disorderly procéedings hée at the first â—ash made no scruple to receaue all the whole state euen all the prophane ignorant people into the bosome of the church which you terme a confuse route c. A pernicious example vnto all Europe whome then haue you called Wolues Foxes Dogs Owles c Your tongs are your own who is Lord ouer yee Psalm 12. Your sufferings are for Christ so are theirs which lye bound in bedlem I doo not doubt but that in sundry places the Psalmes in Mâ—tremisse of the strict sence so no doubt do their Psalmes in any Church but yet there is nothing in them vnholy or disagréeing from the truth All the knowledge which you haue is wholly from the writings expositions and translations of those whom you cerine Owles Vultures Dogs Foxes c. For take away the translations of the Bible and what could you hauesâ—n And where had you the direction vnto the sight of those things which you hold in truth but from the writings of others Would you make vs beléeue that you had found them out of your selues In déede your vnsound and crased principles vpon which you ground are your own and nothing else And yet as if you had all knowledge in the fountaines of the holy Scriptures and knew a right sense and scope in them which none besides your selues haue attained vnto you reprehend the Psalmes as well concinnate to the eare but nothing to the sense and also the preachers as not rightly deuâ—â—ing the word If you had shewed some one Psalme for in example first in laying open the natiue sense wherein yet for all your great brags you must trust Tremellius because some one word wrong translated may carry the sense another way and then how the méeter hath wholly swarued from the same it had béen somewhat If you haue any true grammer sense of the Psalmes for that is it which we estéeme as the ground of truth or of the rest of the Scriptures which you haue not from such Owles and Foxes as Master Tremellious Beza and other translators we would be glad to know it But remember what is said of some that they are swelling waues of the sea foming out their owne shame what greater shame and discredit can there be then for men to fall into such insolency and swelling that being grosly ignorant hauing no knowledge but through the helpes ministred by others yet take vpon them as if they weresent from heauen as the onely men that haue séeâ—e the true light This is no excessiue spéech séeing yâ—â—â—â—erâ—â— in many things condemne all Churches and their learnedst reachers â—eâ— the reader considet of the prophanenes and falsehoode of your other spéeches of the preacher going to his géere and not offending any and such like I doo not know Master Barrow what your former conuersation hath béeâ— but by your spéeches â— man would iudge that you had spent your time rather in the societies of â—arding and dicing then in the â—câ—â—â—lâ— of Christ here therefore I conclude that with ignorance falsehood and prophane impiety ye accuse our worship to be blasphemous and Idolatrous Thus much for the first transgression now to the second The second is that the prophane vngodly multitudes without exception of any one person are with vs receiued into and retained in the bosome and bodie of our Church In your preamble Master Barrow you doo but babble and that vpon your owne surmises contrarie to my plaine words and whether against your conscience looke you for I doo not allow euill ministers nor their admitting of open notorious sinners vnto the table of the Lord. And when I said the Church of Englang dooth not allow the same I speake of the established publick order by the consent of the whole land which is both for the godlines of the ministers repelling the notorious offendors from the Sacrament Moreouer we doo not at any hand allow your arguments which are drawne from the principles of Donatisine as namely that wée must separate our selues where wée sée any swarue from their duety and offend The reason which you brought to prooue this second transgression as you sayd at once I reduced into forme of Sylogisme thus where all are receiued in by baptisme and no power to cast forth any by excommunication there all the prophane multitudes are without exception of any one person receiued into retayned in the bosome and bodie of the Church But in the Church of England all are receiued in by Baptisme and no power to cast forth any by excommunication Therefore in the Church of England all the prophane multitudes without the exception of any one person are receiued into and retained in the bosome and bodie of the Church Here you complayne and that grieuonsly that I did frame this argument after mine owne conceipt as I might best deale withall and then did proceede to confute you The falsification which you charge me so sore withall is that I haue put in a newe minor proposition as namely the whole bodie of the Church of England for the particular asseblies It is a straÌ„ge case to see the witte of some man what great 〈…〉 â—hee can contriue if men will giue credit He that is 〈◊〉 whether it be bysome one assemblie which 〈◊〉 â—ower or by the whole bodie of a Church in a kingdom is â—â—e not cast forth Did not Esra with the Princes and Elders of Israel publish a Proclamation that hee that should not come vp to Ierusalem within three dayes should bee separated from the congregation of the multitude that came out of captiuitie Esra 10. ver 8. this was excommunication Moreouer where you sayd that the Parson and his parish hath not the power to cast forth any by excommunication I did not let this passe but tolde you that it is not meete that the Parson and his parish should haue this power to excommunicate vnlesse it be such a parish as hath the consistory of Pastors and Elders I gaue you the example of the Church of Geneua where euery seuerall flock hath a Pastor but yet these Pastors and their flocks haue not the power to excommunicate Why doo not you then if you will answere prooue by the worde of God that euery particular flock in a kingdome or region is of necessitie for the being of a Church to
haue this power whole and seuerall by it selfe I take it you shall neuer be able to prooue that it ought to be much lesse shall you be able to prooue them to bee no true Churches which haue not in euery seuerall congregation established the power of excommunication For touching excommunication there be Churches which are true Churches of Christ which haue it not nor iudge it needefull Master Beza in his booke against Erastus pag. 2. sayth that he was charged by some to esteeme them to be no Churches which wanted excommunication or such a Presbyterie which was vniustly layd to his charge as he sayth the perpetuall conuiction of him and those Churches did sufficiently witnes You haue more worke in hand here Master Barrow then you bee wate of For if you had proued that the Church of England hath no power to excommunicate yet there remayneth a further thing which is not so easie as you take it to bee conuinced namely that it is no true Church of Christ which hath no excommunication All Churches are against you in this poynt and the light of the truth will be as strong agaynst you as it hath beene agaynst the Annabaptists Here you make the chalenge anewe and say If I would vouchsafe to take mine aduersaries with me into the field and giue them leaue to bring and to vse their owne weapons I answere that for all your outcries yet there hath been no one weapon taken from ye nor yet cut shorter That speciall weapon which you now haue drawen and burnished wherein you repose your trust is this Where all the prophane and vngodly are receiued into and retayned in the Church as members thereof there cannot bee sayd the true established Church of Christ But in the Church of England all the prophane multitudes vngodly of the land were receiued into are retayned in their Church as members thereof Therefore the Church of England in this estate cannot be sayd the true established Church of Christ You doo here conclude a new question for there may bee a true Church of Christ and yet not in all things rightly or truly established Agayne there be foure terminie in this your Sylogisme because this clause all the prophane vngodly is taken more largely in the maior then it is in the minor or else your maior is false also the scriptures which you quote falsely applied It is certain that God did separate his Church from the Heathen Nations that did not call vpon his name Such were not compelled to enter But if you looke vpon the Church of Israel the Nation of the Iewes which had the couenant when they fell into Idolatry and horrible impietyes you shall see that all the godly Kings of Iuda that reformed and restored the true worship of God compelled all to the same Doo you reade that the Idolaters or their seede which still after a sorte professed the God of Abraham and had the seale of the couenant vpon them were cast foorth You may sée in the Prophet Sophonie that in the dayes of the godly King Iosias many of those Idolaters did turne but feynedly for feare of punishment and secretly worshipped Idoles The nation of England did professe Iesus Christ and were all sealed with the seale of the couenant but yet ouerwhelmed generally in Idolatry and many horrible sinnes Our Noble Quéene Elizabeth placed by God vpon the Regall throne compelleth them all being her subiects according to their vow in Baptisme to renounce Idolatry and to imbrace the holy fayth and Religion of Christ appoynting sharpe penaltyes for such as shall obstinately persist either in Idolatrie or other horrible sinnes Now tell me Master Barrow what doth she herein other then the godly kings of Iuda did She receiueth not in nor compelleth Turkes Iewes or heathen but onely such as are Christians by profession And therefore you may see that if you will haue your maior proposition agree with the Scriptures it must needes be taken more largely than your minor And thus you are come forth into the field with your choyce weapon which deceiuethye vtterly But yet here to make some face of true zeale you reckon vp a number of horrible sinnes Indeede God requireth that al his seruants should vtterly abhorre and condemne such vices and speak against them but he alloweth not any to take occasion thereby to condemne his Church Such vices abound but yet there are many thousands which cannot â—e charged with any one foule vice whose conuersation in the profession of the true fayth is hath been with much more sobrietie and modesty then yours Master Barrow vnlesse your time past haue beene better spent then the present And when God shall open your eyes his terror shall be vponye ye shall know that I haue not by the deuill blasphemed yee but shewed by Gods worde that you haue with horrible presumption and intrusion into Gods iudgement seate and with most sauage crueltie sought to rend vp and to teare the Lordes tender plants In the next place commeth the Baptizing the Children of prophane men which professe Christ and remaine in the Church Here Master Barrow you are in a wonderfull displeasure and can not satisfie your selfe with all the varietie of odious tearmes which you doe euen fome out The heresie which I haue vttered about this matter is so foule as you take it that after many extreame wordes you say you may by the direct warrant of Gods word hold me and mine ordinary most heynous falsefiers and corrupters of the whole law and worde of God most blasphemous and peruitions false Prophets A man would thinke at the reading of these words that the whole Church were on fire especially if I should repeate but the one halfe of your speeches but that we know Master Barrow it is but your fashion If it please God he may giue you some spark of modestie But touching the matter it selfe I did affirme that the children of prophane men which remayn in the Church professing Christ whether they bee close hypoerites or openly wicked in conuersation do belong to the couenannt are to be baptized so that the Church take care for their instruction and education in the true fayth Your cauills here about verball confession which God alone can iudge about parish assemblies which are members of a Church though euery one by it selfe seuerally hath not the full power and so to becalled a Church about expresse contrariety error and sacriledge in my proposition as you say are not worth the mention Touching the Scriptures which I alleage to prooue that the interest in the couenant doth not depend vpon the syncere fayth or godlines of the next parents youcrie out of so many errors mischines and blasphemies that you doubt not as you say to pronounce and reiect these doctrines of this false Prophet most blasphemous and deuilish But now if it be true which I say and proue agaynst whom haue you powred foorth your poyson And what bring
you to disproue it But that then all the world is within the Church holy all being sprong within farre lesse then a thousand generations of many faithfull and lineally come from the Patriarch Noah And that then ought the Israelites vnder the lawe to haue circumcised all their captiue Cananites and heathen that came into their power Then ought the Church now to baptize al the seed euen of the most wicked and vngodly whether Turkes Papists Idolaters c. You are out of the way Master Barrow and the faster you runne the further for you should remember that I spake of the seede of such prophane men as remayne in the Church and professe Christ and are sealed with the seale of the Couenant Will you make no difference betweene those which were or are without the Church â—ncircumcised or vnbaptized not professing the God of Abraham or the faith of Christ and those which were or be in the Church circumcised or baptized professing the the God of Abraham and the faith of Christ The Cananites and other heathen if they forsooke false Gods and imbraced the religion of the true God were circumcised so may the Turks and heathen be baptized at this day But while they are without and blaspheme and renounce Christ what hath the Church to do with their children which are not vnder her gouernment and power to bring vp The Church is to take care that al those children may bee instructed in the faith and guided in the way of godlines which she admitteth vnto baptisme For the places of Scripture where I sayd that the couenant with Abraham was made thus I will bee thy God and the God of thy seede and that to a thousand generations Exod. 20. And that because of this S. Peter calleth all the Iewes in generall the children of the Prophets and of the couenant Act. 3. 25. and Paule Rom. 9. 4 For which respect they are called holy Rom. 11. And the childreÌ„ of Idolaters among them are called Gods children Ezech. 16. The whole nation of the Iewes a very fewe men excepted did at sundrie times very grieuously sinne agaynst the Lord and the greater part of those neuer returned by true repentance but yet remayned in the profession of the God of Abraham and were circumcised If the couenant had been disanulled to their seede how could Saint Peter say they were the children of the Couenant Or how could Saint Paule say that theirs was the adoption and the Couenant If none were outwardly to stand vnder the Couenant but the elect how should this haue been spoken Or if the Couenant had been disanulled by their fathers sinnes Unto this Master Barrow you haue made none answer at all But you take occasion at that which I alleage out of Exod. 20. to make some colour or shewe of matter and say that I wittingly suppresse the next words of the sentence which are these of them that loue me and keepe my commandements which shew to whom this couenant is made and belongeth and the condition on our part And you require that I should â—heâ— one plate through the whole Scripture where the Lords Couenant is made vnto vs without this condition and then you say I may peraduenture cléere my selfe and mine ordinarie for publishing this wicked and diuellish heresie so directly contrary to the whole Scriptures in more then a thousand places Thus it is your pleasure Master Barrow euen in your deepe ignorance and that in the grounds of Religion to impugne the stablenes of Gods couenant made vnto his people It is a thing indeed which any godly mind may with horror tremble at when with such furie you terme it a diuellish heresie which is indeed that doctrine of grace deliuered in the Scriptures whereby the glorie of the Lord is most highly magnified It is certayne that the Couenant or promise of God dooth not profite any vnlesse they receiue it as the holy Ghost speaketh mixed with faith Heb. 4. 2. Then where true faith is there is sanctification there is obedience according to the measure of that faith greater or lesse Hereupon it followeth that as God is become their God so they are become his people and this is required on our part But now to inferre vpon this that the stablenes of Gods couenant dependeth vpon this condition if we keepe his commandements and that a man yea a whole Church doth forfeit the couenant as your phrase is if they shewe rebellion is most wicked For what is more manifest then this that if it had been so the couenant had been forfeited almost vnto all Israel and that very often for they oftentimes rebelled agaynst God most grieuously and brake promise on their part The complaints of the Prophets are many sundrie Psalmes doo set it forth the booke of the Iudges declareth how oft they rebelled and fel vnto foule Idolatrie and how oft he plagued them and humbled them by deliuering them into the hands of heathen Kings You will say they rebelled but repented And in the dayes of euery godly Iudge and godly King were the visible Church But in the times of their defection when they committed Idolatrie you say they were not the visible Church Yea you alleage testimonies of Scripture to prooue that in their defection they were not the Lords people as Deuteronom 32. 19. Micha 2. 7 8 9 Amos. 8. 2. Ezech. 16. Alas Master Barrow would any man looke for such matter at their hands that had but euen read ouer the Byble It is declared by Moses that God chose them to be his people not for their owne righteousnes but of free mercie and made his couenant with them Likewise it is most certayne that hee continued his faith towards them not for that they kept couenant with him for they often rebelled but for his own names sake To say that they forfeited the Couenant by transgressing his commandements and recouered it agayne by repentance and so to be now out now in is that I may say no worse most foolishly spoken For they did not enter agayne into a couenant which was lost because they repented but contrariwise they repented because they were in the couenant That is because he had sworne vnto them to bee their God hee not onely brought them downe by afflictions chastising them as a father but gaue them the graces of repentance This is shewed Psalm 106. where the Prophet hauing set foorth their manifold rebellions and the plagues wherewith he plagued them he sayth When they were brought downe by affliction he looked to their distresse and heard their cry And remembred for them his couenant and repented for the multitude of his mercies The Lord sayth also He foreknewe them to be an hard people that their necke was as a barre of yron and their forehead of brasse and that they would deale vnfaithfully Esay 48. vers 4. 8. Yet he sayth I will be long suffering for my names sake and for my praise I will refraine mine anger towards
when you haue a long time taken on you yéeld the whole matter vnto Master Doctor Some For what hath he said more then that it was and is true Baptisme touching the outward washing Doth he euer say that all which had the true sâ—ale had also the inward grace And for warding the blow of flat schisme it is a very weake blow The Romish Antichrist vsurped an vniust power and tyrannie and brought in many most wicked abominations cannot the Churches cast him foorth with his inuentious but they commit Schisme Can any thing be more friuolous Are all seuerall kingdomes tied vnto Rome or shall we be tied to ioyne where there be some remnants of a Church with Idolatrie And concerning the rest your self do in effect now confesse that some part of Christs ministry remaineth in the popery when you say that their Baptisme concerning the outward washing is true Baptisme And moreouer what should be we dispute not but this proueth that the true seale of Gods couenant is giuen to open Idolaters For the seale is the same in it selfe but the Idolater hath not the fruite of it vntill he come to true faith And so your next absurdities fall off themselues séeing the hauing of the true seale that is the outward washing in Baptisme dooth not make the papists true Christians nor proue that Gods couenant of peace and loue dooth belong to the Romish harlot so many among them as come to true faith receiue that vse of the seale All this I say dooth follow vpon your owne confession who build with the one hand and breake down with the other But it passeth all the rest that then Christ must néeds haue diuers seuerall bodies or else he cannot stand an head to thrée so diuers Churches as the Church of Rome the Church of England and the Church of Geneua Why Master Barrow you wil not deny but that to the elect in the Church of Rome Christ is the head And this is further to be noted that when we speak of a visible Church we speake not of men alone but of Gods ordinances And so touching the holy Sacrament of Baptisme in the Church of Rome and so much of the truth as remaineth Christ is the Author of them and so standeth the head of his own he is not the head of the Apostasie or to the wicked inuentions So then in all Churches Christ is the Author and head of that which is his ordinance and of those which belong vnto him What blasphemies are then hereby allowed And if the Papists haue quite ouerthown the one Sacrament by turning it from a Sacrament into a Sacrifice propitiatory what reason is it therefore to say Baptisme is ouerthrowne We must yet a little further deale about the Church of Rome because you make all our people to be but as heathen without the couenant and not rightly entred to become a visible Church but all receiued in at the sound of her Maiesties trumpet I say our people stood vnder the couenant before as a part of the visible Church and that our soueraigne Quéene did not compell those which before were not vnder the couenaÌ„t to become the church but by her regall power giuen vnto her of God banished the vsurped power of Antichrist abolished Idolatry and compelled her people hauing receaued the seale of the couenant and professing Christ to receiue also the true doctrine This was not to begin a Church but to reforme a Church hereupon it falleth out in question whether the Church of Rome were the visible Church of Christ in time of Idolatry It is vsually said that the Church is in the papacy but the papacy is not the Church I said we may rather say to speake more plainely the papacy was in the Church because Antichrist who brought in all the papacy erected his throne in the Church You begin with this Master Barrow and say that I hold it not enough to affirme with the learned deuines that the inuisible Church of God is in the papacy as in all other places of the world because God hath his elect there and in all other places but to be singular I haue inuerted the proposition and say that the papacy is in the Church O Master Barrow it is your bold ignorance as in all other matters Who be those learned diuines that when they say the Church is in the papacy but the papacy is not the Church doo meane no more but that there be Gods Elect as in other places of the world If you haue any modesty bring forth some one learned deuine which is of that iudgement I did like rather to say the papacy is in the Church then to say the Church is in the papacie because I sée diuers doo mistake it as though it were onely meant that in the papacy there are Gods Elect and no further that is no outward visible Church in any respect I doo not differ any iot in the spéech from the sense which Master Caluine and others doo giue for when I say the papacy is in the church but the papacy is not the church by the papacy we must néeds vnderstand that vsurped tyranny of the Pope and his Clergy with all their abominable inuentions By the Church we may not vnderstand only Gods Elect but also so much of Gods ordinances as remaine not only in the points of doctrine and publike profession of the name of Christ but also in the holy Baptisme the seale of the couenant which all haue and may so farre be called the visible Church That the papacy should inuade the visible Church remaine in it and not vtterly or quite destroy it I did alleage that Saint Paule saith Antichrist should sit in Gods Temple Now let vs see whether this bée not the meaning of the most learned diuines when they say the Church is in the papacy Master Caluine handleth this point in the fourth booke of his Institutions Chap. 2. section 11. 12. Which booke though it be in our language yet is it little read and studied of our people as the weakenes and readines of many to be seduced by hereticks and Schismaticks dooth euidently declare I will set downe his words for such as haue not the booke But yet as of old time saith Master Caluine among the Iewes there remained certaine peculiar prerogatiues of the Church so doo wee not at this day take from the papists those steppes of the Church which God would haue to remaine among them notwithstanding the dissipation God had once made his couenant with those Iewes that same couenant did continue vpholden by the stablenes of it selfe as it were wrastling against their impietie rather then kept of them Such therefore is the certainty and constancy of Gods goodnes that there remained the couenant of the Lord neither could his faith giuen be made voyde by their vnfaithfulnes neither could circumcision be so prophaned by their impure hands but that it was still the true signe and Sacrament of his couenant Whereupon
the Lord called the Children which were borne vnto them his sonnes Ezech. 16. which nothing at all perteined vnto him but by a speciall blessing So when he hath left his couenant in France Italie Germany Spayne England since these Prouinces haue beene oppressed with the tyrannie of Antichrist yet that his Couenant might remaine inuiolable he first there preserued Baptisme the testimony of his couenant which being consecrate with his owne mouth retaineth her owne force notwithstanding the vngodlines of man then furthermore he hath by his prouidence brought to passe that there should other remnants also remaine least the Church should vtterly perish And as oftentimes buildings are so pulled downe that the foundations and ruines remaine so hee hath not suffered his Church to be subuerted by Antichrist euen from the foundation or to be laide euen with the ground howsoeuer to punish mens ingratitude which had despised his word he hath suffered horrible shaking and dissipation to chance but euen after the laying wast hee would haue the building remaine halfe pulled downe Whereas therefore wee will not simplie graunt to the Papists the title of the Church we doo not therefore deny that there bee Churches among them but onely wee contend about the true and lawful ordering of the Church which is required both in the Communion of the holy things which are the signes of the profession also of doctrine most chiefelie Daniel and Paule foretold that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God among vs wee account the Bishop of Rome the Captaine and standerd bearer of that wicked and abominable Kingdome That his seate is placed in the Temple of God thereby is meant that his Kingdome shall be such as may abolish neither the name of Christ nor of the Church Hereby therefore it is manifest that we denie not but that there remaine Churches also vnder his tyrannie but yet such as hee hath prophaned with sacrilegious impietie such as hee hath afflicted with outragious dominion such as he hath corrupted and almost killed with euill and deadly doctrines as it were with poysoned drinkes in which Christ lieth halfe buried the Gospel ouerwhelmed godlines expelled the worship of God almost abolished furthermore in which all things are so confused and out of order that there appeareth the face of Babylon rather then of the holy citie of God Briefelie I say they be Churches in as much as the Lord dooth there merueilouslie preserue the remnants of his people howsoeuer miserably dispersed and scatred and in as much as there remaine some badges or seales of the Church and these especially whose efficacy neither the craft of the diuell nor the wickednes of men can destroy but on the other side because those notes or markes are blotted out which wee ought chiefely to respect in this controuersie I say that euerie one of their assemblies and the whole bodie wanteth the lawfull forme of a Church Thus farre be Master Caluines words tell me now Master Barrow is Master Caluine to be accounted among the learned Diuines Dooth he say the Church is in the papacy that is no more but that the Elect are among them as in other places of the World Looke also what I haue said touching this whole matter which he dooth not here say yea euen from that which is in Ezechiel 16. Where you aske who but this peruerse fellow speaking of me could thus stumble and cauill at those words my sonnes and my daughters c But if it bee not plaine enough which Master Caluine saith in this which I haue recited to proue that you would beare the simple in hand that the learned Diuines are of another minde and yet vnderstand not their minde I will adde a little more out of the same Author In his Epistle 404. thus hee writeth Quòd ecclesiae reliquias manere in papatu dico nō restringo ad electos qui illic dispersi sunt sed ruinas dissipatae ecclesiae illic extare intelligo Ac ne mihilongis rationibus disputandum sit nos pauli autoritate contentos esse decet qui Antichristum in temple deisessurum pronuntiat quamquam hoc rationibus satis validis me probasse puto ecelesiam licet semiruptam imo silubet diruptam ac deformem aliquam tamen manere in papatu In that I say the remnants of the Church remaine in the papacy I doo not restraine it to the Elect which are dispersed there but I meane that the ruines of a dispersed Church are extant among them And that I may not dispute the matter with reasons at large it becommeth vs to be content and satisfied with the authority of Paule which pronounceth that Antichrist shall sit in the Temple of God Albeit I suppose I haue proued this with reasons strong enough that there remaineth neuerthelesse some Church in the papacy although halfe broken downe or if you will broken downe and deformed Also Master Beza Epistle 81. page 356. For the remnants of the Church in the papacy is of the same minde affirming that there remaine not onely Gods Elect but also the Sacrament of Baptisme and sundry poynts of sound doctrine Now let vs see what horrible blasphemies you say will followe of this that I say Antichrist should sit in the Church and yet the same remayne still the visible Church so farre foorth as Master Caluines words and Master Bezaes doo import For when you will needes haue it that God hath giuen me vp into a reprobate sense the matter toucheth not me so much as Master Caluine and Beza and many other most worthie men which so expound it Nay if God open your eyes you shall see whether you doo not like Rabsaka reproach the Lord God who hath vttered it by his Apostle The first is this If Antichrist may be sayd to sit raigne and remayne in the Church of God then Christ is not made heire and Lord of all and set as King vpon Mount Sion A worthie collection is it not because God in righteous iudgement for the punishment of those that receiued not the loue of the trueth giueth power vnto Satan and Antichrist to seduce the multitude in the visible Church Christ is not heire of all things nor raigneth as K. vpon Mount Sion Wil you say if the diuell haue a kingdome in the world Christ is not Lord of the whole world Mount Sion may be vsed for the visible Church but most properly for the inuisible which is the Communion of Saints of which are none but the elect Satan and Antichrist are not able to pluck one of these out of his hand he raigneth ouer them and in them Moreouer he raigneth ouer the whole visible Church and ouer the whole world for hee is ascended and filleth all things so that Satan Antichrist and all Tyrants can proceed no further then his will The next is If Antichrist sit in the Church then Christ is either cast out of his house made subiect vnto Antichrist or els deuideth with him Christ
is not cast out of his house nor made subiect these be most friuolous and fantasticall imaginations but in his most high and soueraigne power he vseth Antichrist and Satan as the instruments of his wrath not vtterly to rase and destroy his Temple but miserably to afflict the chosen and so seduce the reprobate euen all wicked hypocrites which are in the visible Church I knowe not what you will vnderstand by diuiding but the diuell may in some sense be sayd to diuide with God in that he receiueth one part vnto damnation The third is If Antichrist sit in the church then the church of Christ may remayne subiect vnto and be gouerned by Antichrist Here we must distinguish First the visible Church consiseth of men and of Gods ordinances The men are of two sorts the elect and the reprobate He exerciseth a sauage tyrannie and oppresseth the elect whome yet he cannot bring into his subiection to make them hang their faith upoÌ„ him or his lawes For God did miraculously preserue a remnant in the poperie which were not vtterly poysoned He corrupteth the lawes and ordinances of Christ but yet had not power giuen him to destroy all His full dominion is ouer the reprobate which receiue his marke and worship him The fourth is If Antichrist sit in the Church then the Church is subiect vnto two heads and Christ then is not the onely head This is fully answered in the former for his tyrannie and vsurpation dooth not make him head but vnto those whose head Christ is not more then by hypocriticall profession of his name The fift is If Antichrist in the Church then Antichrists ministers and marked seruants may be brought into and set ouer the Church of God then is not Christs ministrie which he hath ordeined in his Gospell and his Church permanent vnto the worlds end but variable at the will of man and then may the Church of God cast out Christs ministrie and receiue Antichrists This is also most friuolous for as Antichrist did almost destroy all but yet not all in other things so in the ministrie for the ministrie of Christ was not vtterly destroyed Agayne the Church if you vnderstand Gods true people did not this but Antichrist did it The sixt is That if Antichrists lawes may be brought and set vp and remayne in the Church then Christ is not the onely Prophet and law giuer and then may the Church be built vpon another foundation then vpon Gods word Christ is the onely true Prophet whose lawes onely are wholesome Antichrist hath vsurped a power to make lawes and to set them vp in the Church The elect though some of them for a time haue gone a stray and followed Antichrist vntill it pleased GOD to open their eyes and many of them holding Christ haue been infected and stayned with sundrie errors of Antichrist yet their saluation being onely through faith it cannot be sayd that they were built vpon any other foundation then that which the Prophets and Apostles haue layd The reprobate which haue worshipped the beast though in respect that hauing been borne vnder the Christian profession and had the true seale of the Couenant and professed the name of Christ they might bee the visible Church or of the visible Church yet they were not built vpon Christ vnto saluation but vpon the lawes of Antichrist vnto destruction The seuenth is That if all Antichrists abominations heresies and Idolatries may bee brought into and remayne in the Church of God then no blasphemie heresie Apostasie or any thing that man can commit or deuise can break the couenant If the fayth of God might be made of none effect by the vnfaithfulnes of men it were a wofull case The couenant of God is founded vpon free grace The Lord would not euen because of his Couenant suffer the deuill and Antichrist vtterly to deface his Temple but preserued the holy seede preserued some of his ordinances yea so farre that in some sorte the Couenant was not disanulled to the very reprobate but that outwardly they stoode vnder it in their Apostasie and it might bee said of them though indeede they were no true Children as Saint Paul sayth of the rebellious Iewes theirs is the Couenant and the Adoption The eight is That if those that worship the beast and his Image may be sayd to be in the Church and their seede outwardly within the Couenant then the most abominable and execrable in this estate may be sayd members of Christ washed and purged with his blood sainctified and led by his spirite in assurance of saluation for none can be sayd to bee within the Church but the members of the Church And whosoeuer we may affirme to be within the Church those so long as they continue in that estate we are also to iudge assuredly saued for any thing to vs reuealed or knowen to the contrary These â—re things easily spoken by such as are bolde to vtter whatsoeuer they imagine The Prophets complayned that the great multitude both of Iuda and the ten Tribes were rebels and that the Lord had but a remnant among them shew when that multitude of open wicked ones and their seede were cast out from being the visible Church then shew when they were receiued in agayn For both these you must do because the whole nation when Christ came were the children of the Couenant it is sayd that Christ came among his owne and his owne receiued him not You must prooue that the Scribes and Pharisies the high Priests and all the Capitall enemies of our Sauiour Christ were deemed vndoubtedly saued euen when they shewed their enmitie against him For they were then in the Church They could not sit in Moses chayre and not be in the Church The Uineyard was not taken from those wicked husbandmen which had slayn the seruants vntill they had slayn the sonne and heire himselfe These things are so manifest by the Scriptures Master Barrow that if it shall not please God to open your eyes to see your palpable grosse ignorauce and bolde presumption yet others may see and tremble least God giue them ouer also for the pride of their hearts Whereas I sayd that the Apostasie is in the Church but not the Church you think it strange repugnancie Yet indéed there is none as may appeare by that which I haue set down before and should appeare vnto you if your minde were not so deepely infected with the principles of Donatisme You runne still vpon this Rock that because none ought to bee in the Church but such as appeare godly therefore no open Idolaters can be sayd to be in the visible Church to stand outwardly and their seede in any respect vnder the couenant I haue plainely prooued the contrary What ought to be is one thing and what hath béen or what is is another To your other question I answere that it is no Schisme to depart from the Church of Rome although in some respects they were
the visible Church This matter Master Barrow hath beene as throughly pursued by the Papists as euer you or any Donatist shall be able and such answere they haue receiued from the Churches that haue made separation from them as that they haue no cause to glory The ten Tribes remayned still in some sorte the visible Church and vnder the Couenant as I haue prooued before but yet they were not such a true Church as men might ioyne withall in their worship and therefore when Ieroboam had set vp the golden Calues the Leuites departed from them and went to Ierusalem 2. Chron 11. 23. 14. Then you come to expound how this may bee taken that Antichrist shal sit in the Temple of God And first as you take it his sitting in the Temple of God may be vnderstood as in regarde that he tooke his originall before he was reuealed Let any simple man looke vpon the wordes of Saint Paul and see whether he speake of any such close sitting Then that he should sit where sometimes the true Churches haue beene which hee should so destroy and waste as there should be no shape or steps of any of them left vpon the earth as it was foretolde Matth. 24 29. Reuel 6. 14. See what two places Master Barrow hath found to proue Antichrist should vtterly destroy the visible Church These be the wordes And immediately after the oppression of those dayes the Sunne shall be darkned the Moone shall not giue her light and the starres shall fall from heauen and the powers of heauen shall be shaken This is spoken of Christs comming to iudgment and is meant indeed of the Sunne the Moone and stars themselues and therefore most foolishly concluded that Antichrist shall vtterly destroy the visible Church And for the place in the Reuelation The heauen departed away as a booke that is roled vp you may euen as well conclude that the whole Church in the world vtterly fayled as to say therefore Antichrist vtterly defaced the visible Church And if you will haue the matter tried by so darke a place your light had neede to be great But your pretiest reasons of all are yet behinde Antichrist shall be lifted vp aboue all that is called God this can not be done by any Minister in the Church seeing euery soule must bee subiect They say it will weary an old bodie to followe a Child vp and down all day that can newe goe I am sure it will weary any man to follow you Master Barrow in all your trifles God commandeth euery soule shall submit it selfe vnto the higher powers doth it here vpon follow that if a king vsurp that which belongeth to God they must therein â—â—ay him so long as he remayneth their king Also when it is sayd that he is God you say what blasphemie will not insue if this should be literally taken It may as well be inforced say you by this place that Antichrist is God as that the place where he raigneth is the Temple of God You will not haue this place expounded literally and then what shall we make of it or howe shall we finde Antichrist May he not be the Turke or some other If the Papists could proue yâ— which you speake but with some little shew how much would they glory For grant theÌ„ a mysticall sense of these words and they will carie it whither they list To exalt himselfe aboue all that is called God is literally spoken and literally fulfilled when the Pope exalteth himselfe aboue all Kinges and Emperours which are called Gods So that he shall sit as God in the Temple of God shewing himselfe that he is God What blasphemie is it which will ensue if these wordes bee all construed literally after the Grammaticall sense The wordes doo not import that he shall bee God indeede but that he shall take that to himselfe which belongeth to the most high God The thing which deceiueth you Master Barrow is in the word shewing for euery thing that a shew is made of is not so in truth There is a true shew and there is a false shew when one doth arrogate that to himselfe and bâ—ast of it which belongeth not vnto him As Antichrist vsurping not onely an earthly dignitie but euen the high power and authority of God is therefore sayd to shewe himselfe to bée God And now wheras I stand vpon this that the Church of England was a true Church of God before popery and that in popery it stood a member or part of the vniuersall visible Church fo farre as the remnants of Christs Church remained not vtterly defaced by Antichrist that the casting out of Antichrist and his lawes and vsurped power is not the beginning but the restoring and repayring or recouering a Church from miserable desolation And as Iosias and other godly kings of Iuda by terrour of punishment draue Idolaters which outwardly stood vnder the Couenant being cyrcumcised from false worship vnto the lawes of God so Quéene Elizabeth hath done with her subiects being baptized and thereby bound to renounce false worship and to imbrace the holy doctrine of the Couenant Here you say that to make my conclusion follow I must proue and make euident demonstration by Scripture that the Church of England was rightly gathered vnto and established in that holy fayth and order which Christ hath left vnto his Church in vniuersall and particular according to the rules and examples in his Testament Next that they fell not away froÌ„ this holy fayth in the time of popery and that now they continue and faythfully walke in the same fayth and order If I had done this you say I had powerfully conuinced and stopped the mouthes of all Schismatikes for euer I sée you can make your mach wisely Master Barrow I must make euident demonstration by the Scriptures of what of that which was not mentioned by the Scriptures For there is no particular mention of planting the fayth of Christ in England If wee shew it out of auncient records then doe I not saâ—ilfie your desire at all Agayne it must be shewed by the Scriptures that the Church of England receiued orderly the fayth and order of Christ not onely in generall but in euery particular This is a surer knot than the former And me thinkes you should bee a little more kinde for the honour of your countrey not that any honour is to be rendred against truth but whereas you confesse that a true Church may erre in diuers things so that it be not conuinced sinne obstinately If the planters of the fayth and discipline of Christ in England did erre it some things which yet you know not how can you tell but that they did it in simplicitie wee sée that in auncient times and of late dayes GOD hath had many Children in England which haue been begotten and nourished vp in the land and haue acknowledged her their mother And we are sure herevpon that God hath put his couenant of mercy
in England and planted a true Church And therefore if you deale rightly you must proue against vs. I haue shewed that popery did not vtterly destroy the visible Church And there be at this day multitudes that so walke in the holy fayth that no man is able to accuse them And therefore if either all or the most part of Schismatikes were not obstinate cauillers their mouthes might be stopped for euer Thus much might fuffice agaynst that you affirme our people neuer had any entrance to be vnder the couenant and so to stand the visible Church but to be as heapes of prophane heathen but that your matter reacheth further then against the assemblies in England condemning other Churches which professe the holy Gospel And least some may think that in this poynt I charge ye but by some hard collection in so horrible presumption as to condemne all Christian Churches I will recite the wordes which you haue set downe in your other booke pag. 33. where after long discourse agaynst the reasons which Master Caluine vseth both out of the olde and new Testament to proue that neither the worship it selfe nor the faythfull are defiled by the company of the open wicked you speake thus This and such like detestable stuffe hath Master Caluine in his ignorance partly to confute that damnable sect of Annabaptists which fantastically dreame vnto theÌ„selues a Church without spot in this life and for euery transgression that ariseth are ready to leaue forsake the felowship of the Church without due and orderly reproofe Partly also is this stuffe brought to defend his owne rash and disorderly proceedings at Geneua whilest hee at the first dash made no scruple to receiue all the whole state euen all the prophane ignorant people into the bosome of the Church to administer the Sacraments vnto them which confuse route could not fit with Christs heauenly gouernement neither could it by any meanes agree vnto them in this estate But that monstrous disorders and haynous enormityes dayly ensued thereof whereby this their Church became a iust reproch vnto all men euen to those wicked Heretikes yea that which is worse and more to be lamented it became a miserable president and pernitious example euen vnto all Europe to fall into the like transgression as the confused estate of all those regions where the Gospell is thus disorderly taught declareth Let the Reader here consider Master Barrow what a worthie Champion you â—re become for the Papists for Heretickes and Schismaticks agaynst all the Churches which professe the Gospell and agaynst all their teachers What was Master Caluine to bee regarded if he were so ignorant so rash and so disorderly in his doings How miserable was his case that he must be so pernitious an example to the ruine of many What is or what hath the Church of Geneua been and together with the assemblies of England all Churches in Europe but heapes of prophane multitudes no better then heathen or dogs if your words be true True Christ they haue none for they fit not his gouernment nor his gouernment them as you say But Master Barrow as the Churches and their ministers haue been able haue iustly defended themselues though not from all faults because there is no Church so pure agaynst the wisest and learnedst reuiling Rabsakaes the Hereticks and Schisinaticks so must you thinke that they shall be able to withstand two or thrée which are so ignorant in some grounds of religion as that their bookes are a bundle or rather a dunghill of absurdities Whom shal you euer perswade that hath any true light that your knowledge so farre passeth the learned of all Churches Were it not honour enough for ye to triumph ouer the ministers of the Church of England whom so often in disdayne you terme learned Priests but ye must be generall conquetors like Alexander the great Faine you would seeme to bee farre from the Annabaptists but how néere you are vnto them euen in their tents all that haue skill doo see Well then to conclude this poynt he that will finde a true Church with which he may ioyne himselfe he must not seeke it in the publike assemblies either in England Scotland Geneua or any region of Europe for by your iudgement they be all prophane heapes but he must seeke the fellowship and ioyne with the Donatists of England Now to the second part of the assumption where you say that the Church of England hath power to cast foorth none by excommunication I am of the minde that Christ hath giuen such a power to his Church and also doo take it that the Church of England is not boyd thereof But you condemne all excommunication which is not executed by an Eldership and the people of euery particular assemblie If excommunication be onely to bee so executed then how could Esra with the Elders and Princes of Israel publish an excommunication generall against euery one that should not within three dayes come vp to Ierusalem Esra 10. vers 8. And where doo you proue that excommunication is to be executed vpon any but for contumacie and contempt of the Church Doo you hold that a man which doth repent him for his adulterie these heresie or such like and is cast downe in sorrowe is yet to be deliuered vp to Satan If not why doo you vpbrayd that there is none cast foorth among vs but for contumacie In the next place you take vpon you to confute and cut downe foure false expositions as you say of Math. 18. vers 17. Tell the Church The first sort take the word Church for the Pope the second for the Archbishops and Bishops which exercise this power for the whole Church the third for the companie of the Elders apart from the people which they call the Consistorie the fourth are they which would haue the people excommunicate without the Elders The two first sorts that is the Pope and the Bishops doo depend you say vppon one line and build their preheminence vpon the promise made to the Apostle Peter Math. 16. vers 18. 19. where the keyes of the kindome of heauen are giuen him And vpon the Apostle Paul his example who deliuered Hymeneus and Alexander vnto Satan Timoth. 5. 10. You are so learned and skilfull Master Barrow yea so trustie and true that wee must holde them for Oracles that doo proceede out of your mouth although indeed they be neuer so false as shall appeare Touching the place in Mat. 16. for the keyes giuen vnto Peter it is agreed vpon by all parts that there is a power giuen to be exercised in the Church The disagréement is chiefly about this to whom it is giuen The Pope with his adherents sayth it was giuen onely vnto Peter and his successors He sayth further that Peter was Bishop of Rome that there is his chaire and that this power is annexed to that chaire and so the Pope alone is to haue it and from him all other are to participate which
shall exercise any part of it in the Church The Bishops of the church of England and they that maintaine the government by presbyteries doo both alike condemne that challenge of the Pope as an vsurpation Both parts affirming that although our Sauiour doo speake onely to Peter saying to thee I giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen yet he giueth him nothing but that which he gaue vnto the other Apostles This they prooue by Ioh. 20. where he breathed vpon them and sayd ioyntly to them all As the father sent me so I send you and whose sinnes ye shall forgiue they are forgiuen c. With what face can you say then Master Barrow that the Bishops and the Pope depend vpon one line and build their preheminence vpon that promise made vnto Peter You might truelier haue sayd that the Bishops and presbyteries depend vppon one line for their preheminence not only for that they expound those places Math. 16. and Ioh. 20. alike but also that the Bishops challenge none other power then the presbyteries do For the controuersie betweene the Bishops and the presbyteries is whether of them by Gods word for the benefit of the Church are to exercise that power which Christ hath left vnto her The one side doth affirme that by Gods word the execution of this her power doth belong to the Bishops as being most properly the Apostles successors and therefore do hold that the Church of England hath done right in reseruing this power vnto them The Churches which hold the other gouernment do affirme that when our Sauiour saith tell the Church it is not meant tell the Bishop or those which are ioyned with them but tell the Church is tell the Consistorie which consisteth of Pastors Teachers and Elders chosen from among the people This Consistorie say they is to haue and to exercise that power and iurisdiction which the Bishops do hold Now Master Barrow as you say the gouernment thus by the Bishops is popish so you grieuously condemne the Consistorie affirming that it is irregular that it hath no ground or warrant in Gods word but vtterly subuerteth all order and openeth a wide gap vnto all licentiousnes c. Then come the fourth sort which expound these words tell the church wrong And those are they which say tel the church is tell the congregation of people without the Elders Here you shew some skill also to confute which is but to fight with your owne shadow for this fourth sort I thinke haue neuer been heard of but among your selues And in déede your heauenly patterne whatsoeuer ye speake of pastors teachers and Elders is nothing else but an heape of people without any of these officers For was it euer heard of among men that there bee offices in which there is no power or authority at all annexed vnto the officers which execute them not euen in the things wherein their offices consist aboue those which haue not the same offices For if it be true which you say that the greatest minister hath no more power to bind or loose the sinnes of the least member then the said member hath to bind or loose his Or if Christ speake to all euen to the wemen Iohn 20. whose sinnes ye forgiue they are forgiuen c. If the word haue no more efficacie to worke faith deliuered by the ministrie or the Sacrament to seale the promises haue no more power deliuered by a minister then when the same word is vttered and those Sacraments deliuered by any man or by any woman or if euery young man yea euery maide which is of the assembly haue equall power with any to excommunicate we would see wherein the power of any of your officers consisteth where all or euery one haue equall power there all are officers where all are officers we may say that in déed none are publick officers This is Master Barrowes heauenly patterne by which he hath conuinced all our Churches and found them so obstinate for reiecting it that they be quite separate from Christ Master Barrow will say he spake not of the Sacraments for he faith a minister onely is to deliuer them And I say one part of the power of loosing is by the Sacraments in as much as they seale our faith The power of discipline exercised by the presbytory as it is in the Churches of France Scotland Geneua the Low Countries c. you most grieuously condemne the reader shall see your own words in your other booke page 189. and 190. thus you speake These men in stead of this grosse Antichristian gouernement c. would bring in a new adulterate forged gouernement in shew or rather in despite of Christs blessed gouernement which they in their pride rashnes ignorance and ensualitie of their fleshly hearts most miserably iunouate corrupt and peruert c. Also page 166. you tearme Classical and Prouinciall synods and counsels a diuelish forgery Here you say the fault and pride of the Elders is intollerable Also you say that many were the reasons and more the inconueniences that might bee alleaged against this presumptuous irregular consistorie which hath no ground in the word of God but vtterly subuerteth destroyeth and corrupteth the whole order and Communion of the Churches openeth a wide gap vnto all licenciousnes and prophannes of manners c. Thus the Church of England is no Church of Christ because of their gouernement by Bishops In other places where the gouernement is by presbytreies not onely the people by your sentence are prophane multitudes but their ministers proud rash ignorant and in the sensuality of their fleshly hearts haue corrupted Christes gouernement in despite thereof haue set vp a diuelish forgery and open the gap vnto all prophanenesse c. O Master Barrow what reproaches are these against all churches and their ministers I must néeds tell you againe that there is not any which hath any sparke of Christian modesty but will say God hath not sent ye your sufferings are not to be gloried in you are but Rabasaka that thus reproach the church of Christ What Schismaticks haue gone beyond ye Now followeth the suspension from the Sacraments You must vnderstand that al your friuolous cauils about this and all your reproaches reach not alone vnto the Church of England but vnto all the reâ—ormed Churches which practise a suspention Master Beza in his booke against Erastus page 10. sheweth the vse and practise of it not onely in their Church but in the auncient Churches Also page 124. he proueth it by the example of Moses sister and of those which were restrained a whole month from eating the passeouer these ceased not in the meane time to be accounted members of the congregation When the repentance is not throughly testified or the rest stand in néed of some terror as wel as the party that hath offended then is there vse of suspention To proue that neither the worship of God nor yet the godly are polluted by the
themselues to the Priests Luk. 17. 14. which were also to offer according to the law And this was not long before he suffered You do very fondly imagine the if the Priests the Scribes and Pharisies and Saduces and the multitude which claue vnto them were the visible Church then were there two Churches vnles we will denie that our Sauiour his Disciples were the Church For at y◠time they were all in the same visible Church euen those open wicked and the good Our Sauiour doth reprehend them and layeth open their wickednes to the end that men might beware and not be seduced and kept from truth by them But why are they not cast forth The Prophets in olde time did sharply reprehend the wicked of all sorts in the Church but they had not the ordinary power to execute the censure of excommunication no more had our Sauiour himselfe There be diuers testimonies and examples of the holy scriptures which I alledged to proue this thing which you knitte vp short but in your other booke you deale in them at large And because Master Caluine hath written strongly and plentifully in these matters against the Annabaptists and such as most wickedly did condemne the Churches in his time you take vpon you to confute him as if he were the author of these things and you tearme vs his wretched disciples Whereas in very déede M. Caluine followeth but the steps of the auncient writers Augustine and the rest agaynst the Catharists and Donatists And you lighting into their Tents set very freshly vpon the worke euen as a chiefe Captayne to repayre and fortifie the ruines of that auncient Catharisme and Donatisme and yet can bring nothing which they brought not Touching the reformation by Princes which compell their subiects that professe Christ and haue the seale of the couenant to forsake Idolatrie and to imbrace the holy word and Sacraments I haue spoken before and therefore I come to the 17. page of your booke where you write after this sort The next shiftes these Balaamities haue for the aministring vnto and Communicating with and retaining the prophane in the bosome of their church are certaine arguments drawne by Master Caluine from Matth. 13. against the Annabaptists comparing the church to a corne field where the good seed and the bad grow together to a net and in Matth. 3. To a floar where the corne and the chaffelye together In deed Master Barrow these were speciall places which the auncient Fathers stood vpon against the Donatists and Master Caluine against the Annabaptists and which we in as great right vrge against you and your sect If we bee Balaamites then what was Master Caluine what was Augustine and all the rest Against whome haue you powred foorth your railings Take héede it be not against our Lord Iesus himselfe being against his expresse word for let vs sée how you can auoyde these places Touching the parable of the séed you oppose as you say against Master Caluine and his Disciples first the interpretation of our Sauiour himselfe who saith not that the field is the Church but the field is the world And so the good séed and the bad are together in the world but not in the Church And then you shew an absurditie of flat contradiction of the holy Scriptures which would follow if we take it that the good séed and the bad should grow together in the Church The contradiction is this there is power and commaundement giuen to the Church to cast forth the open wicked and here he bids let them alone Therefore this let them alone let them grow together vntil the haruest must néeds be expounded let them alone and let them grow together in the world but not in the Church In déed your exposition Master Barrow is the very same which the Donatists made and obstinately stoode vpon The field is the world our Sauiour hath said it the truth hath saide it accursed be he that shal gainesay it but to gather from hence that the good séed and the bad shal not be together in the church but in the world is directly to ouerthrow the whole parable For first what is it which is resembled or likened The words are plaine it is the Kingdome of Heauen The Kingdome of Heauen saith he is like c. What is it which is here called the Kingdome of Heauen is the world so called Who dare say so It is the Church in which there is the Gospell of the Kingdome and in which Christ dooth raigne If our Sauiour had ment to sec forth and to resemble the state of the world by the good séed and the bad mingled together as he saith the enemy did sow the tares ana mes◠tou sitou in the middest or among the wheate and that they grew vp together or to say looke how in a field good séede and bad grow together so in the world good men and bad it could not then be saide the Kingdome of Heauen is like but the state of the world is like Was it euer heard of that a man would expound a parable that is a similitude and exclude that which is resembled by the similitude For if the good séed and the bad sowen and growing together in the field do not resemble and set forth the state of the visible church while it is also in the field that is to say in this world mingled of good and bad men shew what there is in the whole parable whereunto the Kingdome of Heauen is likened Moreouer in the exposition of the parable our Sauiour saith as the tares are gathered and burned so shall it be in the end of this world the sonne of man shall send his Angels which shall gather out of his Kingdome all offences and those which worke iniquitie c. If they shall be gathered out of his Kingdome which is his Church peculiarly so called though he be Lord of Heauen and earth then are they vntill the end of the world in his Church I doubt not Master Barrow but that simple men yea poore Children looking vpon this parable and considering what it is likened and how Christ dooth expound it shall bée able to sée what a spirit of giddines God hath in iudgement cast vpon yée for the loftines of your mindes And now for that absurdity of flat cóntradiction in the Scriptures which you imagine if wee expound it that the good and the bad shall bee mingled in the church so long as it is in the field There is no such thing as I will shew by as great an absurdity which will follow of that sense which you giue for speaking of the wicked in the Church if he should say let them alone it would ouerthrow the censures Ecclesiasticall which are expressely commaunded then speaking of the wicked in the world and saying let them alone let them grow together least ye pluck vp the wheat it should ouerthrow the power of Kings and rulers in putting euil dooers to
death which is expressely commaunded for I trust Master Barrow ye will not deny Christian Kings to be one part of the seruants of the master of the house Then whereas you reason thus the power of excommunication which is giuen to the Church and which the Church is commaunded to execute may not be ouerthrowne but if Christ will to let the tares grow in the Church he forbiddeth to execute that power and soâ—t is ouerthrowne therefore he doth not speake of open wickednes in the Church but in the world I will reason agaynst your exposition thus The power which God hath giuen vnto the ciuill Magistrates to put murtherers and other wicked malefactors to death is not to be ouerthrowne but if Christ will men to let the wicked ones in the world alone will haue theÌ„ grow to the haruest least in plucking them vp they destroy the wheate hee taketh away that power from the Magistrates Therefore this parable must not bée taken of the good and the bad together in the world And mark how he sayth not let them alone because it belongeth not vnto ye but let them alone least ye pluck vp the wheate What then shall we neither take it of the Church nor of the world because of an absurditie which seemeth to followe on either side Of the world indeed it cannot bee taken as I haue shewed before because he sayth not the world is like but the kingdome of heauen is like but of the Church it is sayd that as the good seede and the bad are sowen and grow together vntill haruest in the mans field so the good and bad men are mixed in the Church so long as it remayneth in the world How then for these words let them alone let them growe vnto the haruest It is plaine if we will auoyd absurdities on both sides that our Sauiour doth not here meddle either with the Ciuill or Ecclesiasticall power but as it is the manner in parables to vtter some sayings which are onely to shew some poynt of doctrine not to be taken stricktly according to the letter As for example when our Sauiour would shew in that place Luk. 16. which is partly a parable that such as cannot be brought to repentance by hearing Moses and the Prophets will not repent if one should rise from the dead to bring in this doctrine the damned soule is sayd to intreate Abraham that hee would send Lazarus vnto his fathers house to warne his brethren least they should come into that place Shall we think that damned soules haue such a care that others may repent and be saued Nay as I sayd it is onely to bring in a doctrine What is the doctrine then which our Sauiour doth bring in by these words let them alone let them grow together vnto the haruest This it is that when the Christian Princes haue done what they can in reforming the Church and put the wicked malefactors to death and when the censures ecclesiasticall bee most diligently and wisely executed yet will there bee heapes of vngodly ones in the Church and that seeing it cannot be auoyded men are not to make Schismes and so to rend vp the wheate but meekly to expect the haruest when the full separation shall be made Be not therefore Master Barrow so absurd as by an imagined absurditie to ouerthrowe the doctrine of a parable so cleerely expressed The next place to prooue that the open wicked shall alwayes be mixed with the good in the Church is the parable of the draw â—et out of the same chapter You say this is graunted to be vnderstood of the planted Church Who are they which graunted this Indeed the Donatists granted this and it is some gentlenes that you will graunt so much For if in this parable the kingdome of heauen be the visible Church which is compared to the net which draweth together good and bad why is not the kingdome of heauen in the former parable also the Church and so the estate therof likened while it is in the field vnto the wheat and the tares growing together You say the euil fishes are not open sinners but hypocrites and so sayd the Donatists And I meruaile you shewe no reason for it seeing the diuell did suggest this friuolous shewe of reason vnto the Donatists that hypocrites are very fitly resembled by fishes in the net vnder the water which the fisher men cannot see vntill the net bee drawne to land This I haue answered in my former booke There is no doubt but that close hypocrites which outwardly appeare holy are one great part of those euill fishes which the net of the Gospell draweth together but to exclude all the rest there is no reason The place in Math. 3. He shall purge his floar and gather the wheate into his barne but hee will burne the chaffe with vnquenchable fire dooth manifestly shewe that as the corne and chaffe for a time lye vppon the floar so the good and the bad lye mingled together in the visible Church Here you make an exposition of your owne and then take on grieuously that Christs Church should be compared to such a floar as the chaffe and the corne lye together And aske what the Church then differeth from the world It is certaine that both the ciuill and ecclesiasticall power ought to bee imployed with all diligence and care that may bee to purge the Church that albeit the floar cannot be cleane rid of the chaffe yet it may bee rid so farre as men are able That is not the question but when these dueties of men haue been neglected and that there he heapes of chaffe in which the graynes of corne doo lye couered whether it bee not still the visible Church It is a most cléere case that in the Church of Israel which at that time was the visible Church there were very great heapes of chaffe and very fewe graynes of good corne in comparison of the whole multitude Iohn Baptist threatneth eternall iudgement vnto those hypocrites wicked and faithlesse people shewing that the place they held in the Church for a time should nothing helpe seeing the Lord will fanne them out like chaffe which for a time lyeth with the corne but defileth not the corne nor cannot turne it into chaffe You thinke you haue great hold that hee speaketh of separating the chaffe from the corne but answere this one question was it not his floar that is his visible Church out of which he would purge the chaffe Doth he make it his floar by purging it or was it his floar before it was purged The words are cléere hee shall purge his floar c. whether the open wicked pollute the holy things of God or the conscience of the faithfull which doo communicate with them I referre the reader to those things which I haue noted betwéene the ancient Churches and the Donatists where euery thing hath been as strongly vrged by those Donatists as you are able or any of your sect Seeing
which would not yeeld to receiue any fruite or comfort by their prayers I take it Master Barrow you haue the letter If you haue it shew it vnto some honest man that may speake for you and defend ye not to be past shame in forging such a sense If ye haue it not I can let ye haue the perfect copie of it and will let any friend ye haue see it They are so far off in the letter from giuing the least suspition that they doubt of our Church and ministrie as that they pronounce it your heathenish opinion whereby ye denie vs to be Christians What preachers sent vnto ye I know not but that they refrayned to haue conference with ye perceiuing vpon the sight of your little paper as yee say that they could not defend their estate doe yee indeede think still that they tooke it to be the roaring of a Lyon could they not discerne thinke ye betwéene rudere and rugire Your multitudes and armies of wordes being but vayne â—anglings I will passe by and come directly to the substance of the matter And because our ministrie is ordayned by Bishops which is by one part of their gouernement your third and fourth accusation shall bee handled ioyntly as it were vnder one In page 104. Ye wonder as ye say that in this florishing estate of our Church which ouerfloweth with so great learning aboundeth with so many writers that not one of them should vndertake to proue the ministry of their Church directly by the rules of Gods word in their office entrance administration and maintenance These may very well be some of those swelling words of banitie which Saint Peter speaketh of for who if he know not before the vaine insolencie of Master Barrow and his fellow reading this wonder would not iudge them to bee men very deepely read Haue they not read ouer thinke ye all the learned writers of this age wondring that there is not one among them all that hath vndertaken to proue our ministrie directly by the rules of Gods word Is it not pitty that there be no moe learned writers that these men might search them also to haue this poynt handled If you haue now done wondring Master Barrow giue vs leaue a little to wonder The Papists denying that the churches which haue reiected popery haue any ministry and requiring proofe thereof many learned writers both of other Churches and of our owne nation haue vndertaken this matter and haue so directly proued our ministry by the rules of Gods word as that the Papists haue no cause to glorie Now there be two things here which we may wonder at the one how it should be possible that such swelling insolency could be found in the hearts of men grosely ignorant as that hauing read almost nothing and vnderstanding lesse by sundry degrees yet openly vaunt as if they had read all and could finde no such matter The other how men of so contrarie disposition should vse the very same weapon against the Church for this is one weapon of the Papists and now in your hands Ye haue no ministrie of Christ If the reader shal here thinke that I grate too hard vpon Master Barrow who directeth his spéech but against the ministry of our Church the matter is farre otherwise as I will make it appeare for first he denieth the ministry of all Churches in expresse words affirming that there is no ministry in all Europe nor in all these knowne parts of the world Secondly we are to note that although the reformed Churches doo differ sundry of them each from others in the manner of the calling and ordination of ministers yet the defence which the learned writers doo make is generally for the ministry of all those Churches as well for the ministry of the Church of England as of others which haue forsaken Antichrist and preach the Gospell Therefore Master Barrow read all the learned writers which haue stood to maintaine against the Papists that Master Luther Master Caluine Master Bucer Martyre the rest were ministers of Christ and seeing ye will needs fight against God and his truth try your strength and see how ye can gratefie the Church of Rome in ouerthrowing that which all her learnedest patrons are not able to shake more then they be able to shake or remoue a mountaine The ministry of our Church is not you say the ministry of the Gospell or the ministry of Christ but the ministry of Antichrist comming in the life and power of the beast Your reason is that we are the children of the Bishops the Bishops are the creatures of the Pope Against this I did alleage that the popish Bishops haue their consecration and power from the Pope they sweare obedience vnto him to maintaine his dignity religion lawes and ceremonies And also with him doo exercise a power ouer the faith and conscience of men But the Bishops of the Church of England haue not their ordination consecration or power from the Pope but from our Church which hath renounced Antichrist The Bishops of England acknowledge no subiection to the Pope but by anoath haue renounced his vsurped power and tyranny The Bishops of England are not ordayned to vphold and maintaine the religion or lawes of Antichrist but quite contrary they promise and professe to aduaunce the Gospell of Iesus Christ c. They vsurpe not a Lordship ouer the faith and conscience of men Let vs see now what ye bring against this It helpeth not our Bishops ye say any thing that they haue broken their faith and Schismed from the Pope renounced his yoake euen his vsurped power and tyrannie seeing they vsurpe and retaine if not the same yet as Antichristian and enormous a power as the Pope exercising their authoritie and commaundements contrary vnto and aboue all lawes both of God and of their prince page 113. If it be thus our case is hard but Master Barrow remember the old Prouerb a lier needeth to haue a good memorie for in page 181. and 182 you haue quite forgotten what ye had set downe here for there yee doo affirme that the Bishops which died for the Gospell were godly blessed Martyres of whose happie and blessed estate ye doo not doubt Your reason is for that they were not conuinced but did exercise that power ignorantly I pray ye tell me Master Barrowe could they bee godly and had but broken their faith and Schismed from the Pope Could they be godly men exercising as Antichristian and enormous a power as the Pope Yea could they bee true thristians exercising their commaundementes and power contrary vnto and aboue all lawes both of God and man Or could ignorance excuse them in these matters Then tell vs why the Pope might not be a good Christian also before he was conuinced Which way dooth the whéele turne now Master Barrow Ye can neuer be able to bring both ends together in these yee must either condemne those Martyrs or else make the
is that princes lawes are to be obeyed for conscience out of which a man may reason thus seeing none can make lawes to binde the conscience but God and no lawe but in things good or euill can binde the conscience and not in things indifferent for that were to binde where God hath left free therefore Princes haue no power to make lawes in things indifferent To answer this in such sort as a simple man may see the falsehood of it is somewhat hard but I will doo the best I can I say therefore I am bound for conscience to obey the Princes lawes and yet the Princes lawes of themselues doo not binde my conscience It is an honest a good and profitable thing when the Prince maketh a lawe and restrayneth the vse of some things outwardly which the conscience hath freedome in inwardly before God when it is for a publike good Now I am bound to further a publike good it is a great sinne to shewe contempt agaynst the Prince whom God commandeth me to obey in these respects then I am boūd euen for couscience to keep the lawes The nature of the things indifferent is not altered before God vnto my conscience by that restraint of lawe neither yet the vse is taken from me when and where it may bee without contempt of my Prince without offence to men and without hindring a publike good or commoditie They that speake in words of Arte doo say that Princes lawes doo not binde the conscience haplôs but cata ti not simply by themselues but for some respect or by somewhat which commeth as a medium which is as I haue before shewed Take an example put case some dying of clothes should be harmefull to the Common wealth as to dye in blewe I am a Dyer this restraynt doth not make the very dying in blew it selfe vncleane to my conscience before God and so binde my conscience but if I dye in blew contemning the power so giue a publike offence and hinder a common profite I doo sinne God doth forbid these things and they doo binde the conscience Now to come to the lawes Ecclesiasticall which M. Greenwood sayth is to goe a note further The Church as in our Countrey the Prince the Nobilitie and Commons assembled in Parliament doo agree vpon some lawes in things indifferent for comelines and order and edification in Gods worship as in some other places the Presbyteries with the consent of the christian Magistrates This say you is to binde the conscience Well let vs see your reasons If say you they binde not the conscience why should men be excommunicate and deliuered vp to Satan for violating such ceremonies and orders as bind not the conscience This seemeth vnto you a thing most absurd but marke a little The Princes lawes as I haue shewed doo not bind the conscience but yet he that with contempt of the Prince to a publike euill example and harme of the Common wealth doth breake the lawes is guiltie of great sinne and if he stand in it worthie to be excommunicate Euen so hee that violateth a lawfull rule or ceremonie of the Church in matters indifferent which are not layd vpon him to bind his conscience before God but for order and comelines before men though his conscience touching the things themselues is not bound before God yet in shewing any contempt agaynst the publike authoritie of the church in giuing an offence by bringing in vncomelines or disorder he sinneth if he persist obstinatly is to be excommunicate Tel me M. Greenwood is it not a thing betweene God and a mans conscience free to weare a gowne of greene cloath were it not in regard of comelines among men The Church then taketh order that no Minister shall come into the publike assemblie to preach in a green gown he doth it is he not to be reproued as for a great sinne if he stand obstinatly in it to be cast forth But you say all these things must be left to the discretion of the Minister So ye may also take away the power of making lawes in matters simply euil for euery man hath not loue or care And now whereas I haue shewed by y◠example of the holy Apostles Act. 15. who decreed that the Gentiles should abstaine from bloud and from strangled that the Church hath power to decrée in things indifferent orders for edification let vs see what a learned answer you M. Greenwood haue found out First you say I haue ouerthrowne my selfe by setting downe that the holy Ghost and the Apostles did this because these were the master builders and were to make lawes c. Alas poore man doth the holy Ghost euer make law or the Apostles in things indifferent as eating blood or strangled to change the nature of the things or to binde a mans conscience before God so that he might not secretly where it might neuer be knowne to the weake Iewes Then ye see there may bee lawes made the holy Ghost by the rules of the Scriptures guiding the Pastors in things indifferent which binde not the conscience But say you they doo not inioyne it as a lawe but tell them they shall do well if they obserue these things by no necessitie inforced pag. 251. Then it seemeth they might haue eate bloud and strangled and giuen offence to the weake Iewes and not haue done euill That which seemeth good to the holy Ghost for them to obserue they may if it seeme not good to them not obserue How absurd is this And if ye mark well what S. Iames sayth Act. 21. vers 25. you shall see it was not left arbytrarie so long as there might offence growe thereby Well if the Church then haue power to make such decrees to auoyd publike offence and disorder what if the Church erre and appoynt some orders and Ceremonies which are hurtfull This error and fault of the Church is not in that high offence of binding the conscience which indeede is Antichristian but in missing what is most comely most without offence and fittest for edification The Church of Christ is so precious a thing and the soules of men to bee regarded with such sender compassion that all Christian gouernours and guides ought to be carefull not onely not to lay any yoke vppon the conscience but euen to redresse the least error that may breede or worke any harme touching comelines and order To ende this poynt Master Barrow vntill you can shewe wherein any power is vsurped and exercised ouer the faith and conscience wee must needes take all that ye haue here set downe to be but your lauish speech Now touching those reasons which I brought to proue the ministry of our Churches to be the ministry of Christ The first is this they haue the calling of the Church What sound stuffe ye haue brought to warrant your most vngodly presumption in condemning the Church of England as also al Churches in Europe let the reader iudge Also that
the Churches doo in some things differ about the manner of calling and ordaining ministers how you or any other by this can proue all to be void would be seene Then next the ministry of the Church of England is the ministry of reconsiliation bringing no doctrine but the doctrine of the holy Scriptures Here ye cauill foolishly that although they exercise an office yet they hauing no true calling doo it but as priuate men Luther and Caluine and all the rest which haue preached the Gospell in these times ye confesse in some small measure according to that little which they did see nothing comparable to that you haue attained haue vttered the truth but yet as priuate men Here besides your wicked barking against the ministry of all Churches which God hath ratified your ignorance is to be noted in this that you doo not know that if a man enter not rightly into a publick office yet the office it selfe is not destroyed as if a King haue but vsurped the crown yet he is a King while he be deposed It is more then foolish that ye say we haue a leiturgy or prescript forme of praier therfore we bring other doctrine besides the Scriptures Thirdly the ministry of the Church of England dooth bring men to faith there being ioyned with it the effectual power and blessing of the holy Ghost c. In answering this Master Barrow yee fall into your former stincking puddle into which yée draw many a rash ignorant man I meane ye vtterly deny with the vngodly Swinckfeldians all the whole efficacy power and blessing which God hath annexed vnto the ministry of the Gospell Here is a great patch set on to help the Papists how by this also ye say they may reason to proue their ministry and Church to be such as they that separate themselues must néeds be Schismatikes Why Master Barrow do you not know that as God made a promise to his Church to the end of the world and hath giuen gifts a ministry to continue euen to the worlds end to build it for Saint Paule saith this ministry is giuen vntill we all meete together in the vnity of faith which cannot bee vntill the last day that the whole number be accomplished Ephes 4. 13. So hee hath alwaies reserued not only some ministry in the popery but also in all times some godly ministers How little help this bringeth to the Papists or all those sound points or doctrine that remained and do remaine among them to proue that the Churches which haue forsaken them are but Schismatikes or that the Churches should not cast foorth the vsurped power of Antichrist I thinke children might be made to sée and vnderstand for although they hold sundry points of the faith yet they quite subuert the holy faith And whereas the Apostleship and ministry of Saint Paule being called into question he vseth this reason vnto those which had receaued the faith and power of the holy Ghost by his ministry If I be not an Apostle vnto others yet am I vnto you I said the same is to be made the defence of the ministry of the Churches at this day vnto all such as by the publick preaching of the word and administration of the Sacraments are called vnto an assured faith and comfort in God and vnto vnfeined repentance For let all these iudge whether there be no efficacy power in the publick administratioÌ„ of the word and Sacraments more then from the mouth of any priuat person Vnto this you answer is too foule and beastly for ye say it wâ—l fit the Papists against vs and then I say it might fit the false Apostles against S. Paule For if the Papists can or may as well say though wee bee no ministers of Christ vnto other yet vnto you that féele the comfort and power of our doctrine and ioy in it we are ministers of Christ Then might the false Apostles in like manner haue risen vp against S. Paul and spoken the same vnto those which delighted to heare them Is there no difference betwéene that power of the Gospell that assurance of faith of peace and ioy in the holy Ghost and of vnfained feare of God and repentance which it worketh and that blinde zeale and comfort which hereticks and Papists haue in false doctrine and superstition Will ye confound all When ye pronounce that there is no such faith nor repentance nor ioy in the holy Ghost nor peace of conscience wrought in the hearts of any by the ministry of our Church how far aboue the clouds doth your swelling blind pride lift vp her hands Let al such as haue felt the effectual calling of God beare witnes in this matter In the fourth I alleadged that the Martyrs which suffered in the dayes of Quéene Marie were moued and brought to fayth repentance at the preaching of Master Latimer Taylor Hoper Bradford and others Your replie is that this reason standeth vpon popish and Annabaptisticall grounds For popisâ—â—â— don alleadge 〈…〉 as many martyrs his predecessors Let me then aske this question when it is confessed that they were holy martyrs died for the true faith will it not follow if the Pope could prooue that the Church of Rome had held still that holy fayth that it should bee the true Church We hold the same fayth with the holy Martyrs The motions ye say at our preachings are but the illusioÌ„s of Sathan and this is the cause that you account the reason to be Annabaptisticall God is highly to be blessed who hath so ratified the effectual power of the ministrie of his word in the hearts of many thousands both in this land and in other countries with such assurance and constancie of faith that the whole power of SathaÌ„ out of the mouthes of papists Annabaptists Schismatiks and frantick persons is not able to bring it into doubt Lastly I did aduise men to be somewhat moued with the iudgement of other Churches This you say is an old popish reason M. Barrow it is not popish at all vnto such as shall consider that the Churches with these principal instruments which God rayseth vp as lights doo discusse matters by the Scriptures men are to seeke for the truth at their handes But I must tell yee it is the trick of all ranck heretikes and schismaticks to despise the iudgement of the Churches Shall we think that a few ignorant rash men haue receiued such light from God as al the most noble instruments raysed vp haue not Thus ye haue answered no one reason which I brought but only with vaine yea more then vayne cauills The foule reproachfull speeches which yee vse to deface all the ministers of Christs Gospell both of other Churches of the Church of England are so many and that in sundry places of your bookes but specially in your Discouery from pag. 140. vnto pag. 187. that hee that will search all that is written of the Catharists the Donatists Annabaptists and sundry