themselves to you for satisfaction concerning the meaning of such and such scriptures and doe you publish their doubts as their positions and what was proposed to you privately to obtaine satisfaction doe you divulge it to the world as a belying of God a counterfeiting of the King of Kings hand an addition to his Word Surely this will make men tender how they seeke satisfaction from you for the future Nor see I cause say you why you should repine at it or complaine of it if you have clearely manifested as in your title page you say you have the positions and scriptures alledged for your Church way and by me examined to be sufficient pertinent and full of power Doth not the meaning of this amount to thus much For undoubtedly these censures relate to the positions and consequently to the authors of them that if an interpretation may be clearly manifested to be sufficient pertinent and full of power then the persons that give it may not complaine though they be all bedawbed with imputations of belying God counterfeiting the King of Kings hand adding to the Word Must innocency of necessity be stupid and insensible of injuries Dat veniam corvis vexat censura columbas And yet I find my selfe deeply charged by you to deprave places blotte and blurre sweet humble spirited holy pertinent Expressions to wrong the Elders of New-England wrest allegations Answ Let the Reader judge betwixt us if it be not truth But you goe on and say Yea though I said I will not tell you who said all the Church is holy c yet you thinke it not unworthy my serious consideration whether it might not be said to mee as sometimes Christ said to one of the twelve when he asked Master is it I and he answered thou hast said a bitter personall invective c. We intended not these words as any invective at all much lesse as a personall invective as you affirme It was never an Embrio in our thoughts to compare you with Judas as you insinuate 't is cleare as the Sun that you compare the Congregationall members in the pursuit of their way to Corah Dathan and Abiram Our meaning is plainely this by this forme of speaking borrowed from our Saviours words in another case to signifie that it might rather be said against you what you bring against us viz. That Presbyteriall governours doe take too much upon them because they take upon them an authoritative power over those Congregations over whom Christ hath not set them Your reasons to prove that our way is the gainsaying of Corah are weake For 1. this schismaticall company would utterly have taken away the power of Moses and the Priesthood of Aaron and so when they had Officers would have destroyed their Officers we onely in the extraordinary case of an utter want of an Eldership to ordaine hold it fit to ordaine by persons deputed or by Elders elected If in the constitution of a Church there doe joyne as members severall persons that have beene approved Ministers whilst their relations to their severall Churches were in being then some of these are deputed to ordaine the first Elder If there be but one Preacher joyned as a member and severall persons of eminent holinesse and gifts fitted for ruling Elders then there is an Eldership chosen and the rest of the Eldership ordained one of their Company for their first Elder In the Church of Duckenfield in Cheshire four Preachers joyned in the foundation of the Church At Sourby in Yorkshire but one But in both places the Ordination was performed either by Preachers as deputed or by elect Elders 2. If the placing of Church power in the body of the Congregation were the gainesaying of Corah then because election of Officers Act. 6. is a branch of Church-power and was placed in and acted by the body of the Church at Jerusalem that Church was guilty of the gaine-saying of Corah which is your second Argument 3. 'T is not true that our cause enjoynes or allowes complaining i. e. of the regular exercise of the power of the Elders that rule over them in the Lord for taking too much upon them but we honour and obey the Elderships of our severall Churches and also the Elders and Members deputed of severall Churches met in a Synod occasionally to rectifie disorders c. which the particular Churches are not able to accomplish But as for stated Classicall-Elderships and your severall graduall Judicatures swallowing up the Votes of the Elders of the particular Congregation in the Major part of the Votes of the Synod Ordaining Depriving Admonishing Excommunicating Restoring we say these are not powers ordained of God And consequently we are not guilty of the gainesaying of Corah though wee should say of these They take too much upon them You proceed The usuall occasion of your Censures of depraving places c. is a wide I hope not a willing mistake in you and not any iniquity in my hands or heart you expect the Positions and Scriptures alledged to agree fully and exactly with the places cited in the Margent which I neither professed nor intended c. Answ We expect not an exact agreement in words and expressions but yet we could not but looke for an agreement according to the expressions of your Marginalls in sense and importment Where you say Position See almost the same Argument verbatim We expect with good cause an exact agreement in sense and almost in words When you say See the like we expect there an exact agreement in sense and a likenesse in manner of expression and so in the rest For if there be not the same thing asserted in both the Margent is ridiculous In divers Positions your Marginalls have no such modifications in them must we not expect an exact agreement in sense and words in those places Your Marginalls themselves are profession enough of such an agreement especiall to any man that readeth your Preface where you say The way of Independencie produceth sundry texts in Preaching Writing Conference which for the most part also she produceth in Print upon the same or the like occasion Doth not this import an agreement in sense and importment betwixt the Printed Bookes alledged and the Positions gathered from Preaching Writing Conference When you say You alledge Printed Bookes probably to intimate whence the Proposition was taken Do you not imply that the substance of the Proposition is to be found in the place from whence it is taken and if it be not found there are you not justly to be blamed Whereas you say The Printed Bookes alledged in the Margent are the By-standers spoken of in the Preface either we doe much mistake you or you doe which were strange not a little mistake your selfe What then is the meaning of these words in the Preface I publish not all their Depositions nor all that is materiall but so much as I conceive at present sufficient If any of the Brethren amongst whom Mr. Cotton is
abound more and more with you and with Your loving Brethren Sam. Eaton Tim. Taylor COncerning your questions whereto you require rationall and scripturall answers you have beene so insatiable in the multiplication of them as that you have made your demand irrationall to rationall men If seven or eight questions may well exercise an Assembly of men some weekes perhaps monthes to give scripturall and rationall answers to them how long may one or two be exercised in answering one hundred and twelve questions Yet we shall say somewhat to them and give our sense of them the better to be excused with the Reader though we give not at present a direct scripturall answer to any of them 1. Your questions are reduceable to these heads Some of them are either in whole or in part answered already in our defence as Q. 11. 24. 30 31. 35 36. 38. 41 42 43. 48 49. 52. 56. 73. 77 78. 84 85. 102 103. 2. Some of them are bottomed upon mistakes of things asserted to be held by us which yet we hold not as 19 20 21 22. 39. 44. 50 51. 56 57 58. 61. 80. 3. Some of them do arise and proceed ex non concessis from things taken for granted which yet we cannot grant as 23. 29. 32. 84. 4. Some of them are de non negatis of things which we grant and yeeld as well as you wherein you and we doe agree or else they are de negatis of thiâ—gs which both you and we do alike deny as 55. 86 87. 91. 96 97 98 99 100. 102 103. 5. Some of them are in the nature of them deep censures full of calumny slander both of our way persons as 1 2 3 4 5 6. 10. 15. 37. 41. 45. 49. 57 78. 83. 88. 104. 10â— 6. Some of them savour of a bitter distempered spirit and tend to incense the Magistrate against us as 57. 96. 106 107 108 109 110 111 112. 7. Some of them seeme to be dubious questions proceeding from a troubled spirit that either we have Auditors to heare us preach or any maintenance from any beside them of our owne way as 77. 79. 84. 8. Some of them are entrapping questions and in them there is aliquid latens some thing that appeares not and you watch for advantage as 76. 81. 82. 9. One of them in a superfluous Parenthesis gibes at the language of many godly knowne Christians who yet are able to justifie their expressions viz. 46. 10. One of them is a question concluding with a vaine-glorious chalenge viz. 100. 11. Some of them are such as that many of the Brethren of the Presbyterian judgement doe agree with us in them and we may referre you to them to answer them as 46. 71. 12. One of them is rather a point controverted among your selves then betwixt you and us viz. 90. 13. Some of them are impertinent and come not up to the controversie betwixt us as 16. 17. 18. 44. 54. and same others 14. Some of them are unnecessary questions because the answering of some one would cut off and make voide the necessitie of propounding and answering of the rest of that nature as the answering of the 7. would prevent the propounding of the 8. 10. 13 14. the answreing of the 11. would make the 9. and 12. uselesse So the answering of 63. makes vaine the propounding of 58. 59. 60. 61. 62. 64. 65. 66. 68. and so of others 15. The most of them are argumentative and do dispute against the thing and sometimes conclude peremptory rather then propound and inquire after the thing of which yet in forme of words there is a question made By all which it arpeares how many of this great multitude of Questions might have beene spared and how little reason we have to answer them Had you not done more commendably if you had propounded some one Question of a kind as namely one about constitution of Churches one about gathering out of many Churches one about the qualification of Members one about an universall visible governing Church one about diversity of Congregations in those City Churches mentioned in Scripture one about the entity and power of an incompleate Church that hath no Officers one about the Covenant and of what Covenant Baptisme is the seale one about the power of the Keyes one about Ordination one about Communion of Officers one about maintenance of Officers one about a private mans exercising his gifts one about withdrawing from communion of ones own Church Ministry and Ordinances one about the externalls of discipline whether they be contained determinately in the New Testament one about the lawfulnesse of tolerating another way then what is by Law established and yet it vvould have been unseasonable to have propounded some of these till the answers vve have given to them already in our Defence have beene rendred invalid and all these would not have amounted to above 15. Questions vvhat then vvould have become of your many scores But your designe vvas under the forme of sundry Questions to assault us vvith sundry Arguments for very many of your Questions yea the most of them are arguments which if we confute and overthrow though your greatest strength be put forth in them yet you come off with honour you asserted nothing positively but propounded only Questions if we confute them not nor answer them clearly we receive as you imagine a blot thereby such cunning there is in the vvay of your proceeding But vve rather choose to put you upon it to state the Question vvith us and then to forme your Argument and vve shall vvillingly ingage our selves then in answering of you this is to set our selves upon equall ground vvith you and you cannot and we hope the Reader vvill not expect fairer proceedings from us Notwithstanding if you like not this vvaite but a vvhile till this present controversie be issued betwixt us and if others in the intrim doe not we shall probably be at leasure to undertake the particular answer of them in the forme they are presented to us FINIS
his word c. In which words you doe insinuate the Positions which you examine and practises built upon them to be untrue and unlawfull and to be fathered on God by misinterpretation of Gods word And therein you doe not asperse us onely but lay an immodest charge upon Bucer Zanchy Pareus who concurre with us in our Position and interpretation of Eph. 4. Thirdly say you Doe you clearly manifest that the text Mat. 18. whatsoever other texts doe doth prove that the Church must be Congregationall Answ We clearely manifest what in conference we have endeavoured to prove out of these words and the Position as you have laid it downe and doe controvert it we shall beleeve to be your owne Fiction till you produce your Author We hold that the exercise of Church Power by the Congregationall Church is founded upon this text as the observation of the Christian Sabboth is upon the fourth CommandmeÌ„t We have clearely proved that Christ in this place sends the offended Brother to the Church endowed with power at that time when the offence should be committed and therfore sends the Brethren of the Jewish Church to the Jewish Church whilst that Church remained in power and sends the brethren of Christian Churches in the times of the Gospell to Congregationall Churches as they stand in opposition to Classicall Provinciall Nationall and Oecumenicall Churches And how slight soever you make of this our Reply except by scripturall reasons you force us to quit this ground you lose your Presbyterian cause Fourthly say you Position the 20. Have you clearely manifested that the Keys were given to Peter to be used by him For you could not but know that to be the meaning as a Disciple Beleever not an Officer Answ We have clearely proved the contrary And yet you without the least refutation of the proofe made by us sticke to the conclusion that we cannot but know the meaning to be that the Keys were given to Peter to be used by him as a Disciple or a Beleever not as an Officer A doctrine which we professe against as in our Reply we manifest as neither consonant to the mind of the holy Ghost as we conceive nor the Elders of New England whom you alledge as we proved it out of the sense of their owne words Doe we but sing to a deafe man in what we say to you We leave it to the ingenuous Reader to judge betwixt us Fifthly say you Have you clearely manifested that Col. 4. 17. proves the Churches power to censure her Officers when the strongest argument you bring to prove Archippus his faultinesse without which it was no censure amounts but to a strong presumption and that you know is but a weake proofe Answ A man would imagine that you Brother never built any conclusions as mortally probable upon premisses that might beget strong presumptions but that all your arguments were demonstrationes potissimae and concluded with an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 because you finde fault with our strong presumptions built upon two good reasons and ushered in by the authority of Zanchy as one of those many Classick Authors that assert the same thing with us in this particular Yet your selfe upon this place argue thus Paul say Examination in pag. 15 1â— you bids Timothy fulfill his ministery 2 Tim. 4 5. yet this doth not suppose Timothy to be faulty c. And then you adde And it may be Archippus was not faulty and then this Admonition was no censure and thence you inferre therefore its alleadgâ—d to no purpose It had beene more tollerable if you had said therefore it may be it is alledged to â—o purpose Is it a fault in us to build a strong presumption upon two reasons yet uncontrowled Is it no fault in you Sir to build a peremptory conclusion upon that which amounts to no more then an it may be which is not so much as a remote probability much lesse a strong presumption Since our worke and businesse was to defend the scriptures alleadged against your examinations we have fulfilled what our Title page undertakes if we prove that a Church hath a priviledge to admonish her Officers by virtue of this text any thing in your examinations notwithstanding Now the two reasons by us alleadged make it absolutely cleare that Archippus was faulty by virtue of Col. 4. 17. and that tho Churches power in censuring her Officers may be and is founded hereupon i. e. For ought you alleadge to the contrary in that place and containe in them grounds of a strong presumption that the thing is so indeede Sixtly Have you say you clearely manifested from Adams Family that 7 8 or 9 make a Church c. Answ Is not our worke to defend the Position against your arguments Is there any thing that hath the least appearance of an argument produced by you in this section which we have not fully answered If there be produce it We thought it superfluous and impertinent to prove that which your selfe clearely grant when you say the case of Adam and Noah was extraordinary there were no more in the world and therefore could be no more in the Church Doe you not grant a Church at that time consisting of 7 8 or 9 Of this we make use and argue in effect thus How few ever made a Church since the beginning of the world the same may make a Church at this day But 7 8 or 9 say you made a Church in Adams time and Noahs time Therefore 7 8 or 9 may make a Church at this day Yet we would not have the Church to consist of no more but judge a numerous addition of members a great mercy As for our concession that God hath not precisely determined what number doth make a Church which you make use of to darken the clearenesse of our manifestation we say It is a confirmation of our argument which we bring viz. That looke how few have made a Church so few may make a Church still because God hath not determined what number a Church must consist of And it is brought to cleare the Position that 7 8 or 9 may now make a Church because so many have made a Church in Adams and Noahs dayes And till you have overthrowne the strength of the Argument which is contained in these words because God hath not determined what number must make a Church you deale not candidly to suggest that out owne acknowledgement in those words is against that cleare manifestation of that Position which we in the Title page speake of Seventhly Methinks you have not cleared say you that Revel 8. 8 9. is sufficient and full of power against setled Endowments Answ Sir It falls out with the best writers as it doth with the best builders they have not onely in the making of their walles certaine peeces of timber which beare up the weight of the stories and roofe which if they were removed the whole building would fall but also certaine carved
to God that is to say The Elders by way of office authoritatively and the brethren as God shall give them opportunity to advise and admonish their fellow members Therefore by the same reason that the Churches of Macedonia gave themselves up to Paul and Timothy by the same reason ought Church members to give up themselvs to the Church to be directed by her according to God But you would make men at least if any possibly may looke upon this exception as though Logique Reason and Religion what ever they be are wholy in subserviency to your present designe beleeve whether you have confuted us or no that we have consuted our selves when we say it is Argumentum a comparatis for say you You know that allusions and comparisons are not argumentative For unlesse we must unknow all that we have knowne to gratifie your cause withall we must needes professe that when we were but boyes in the University we were taught that one head or common place from which Arguments were to be drawne was a Comparatis from Comparrisons And we have had no reason to extirminate that doctrine from intermedling with the matters of God Suppose a man should say to Master Hollinworth a Minister You should season others with the salt of knowledge and of the love and seare of God for you are the salt of the earth Math. 5. 13. You should feede your people with wholesome doctrine and discipline for you are a shepheard would Master Hollinworth out with this Logique and say Comparrisons prove nothing and therefore the Arguments are naught Did Paul commit a solâ—risâ—e in Logique when he proves that Ministers should receive maintenance because the mouth of the Oxe must not be â—â—zelled that treadeth out the corne Or is our Saviours argument weake and insufficient when he justifieth his Disciples for plucking the eares of corne by an argument â— Comparatis taken from Davids taking and eating the shew-bread So that till we have something more then your bare assertion to convince us we shall beleeve there is a truth in the old rule of Analogie Quod de uno secundum proportiâ—nem affirmatur vel negatur id etiam de altero That which is asserted or denyed of one thing according to proportion may be asserted or denyed of another thing And if you can overthrow this old maxime we are confident that the Classique cause will suffer as well as the Congregationall Ninthly say you In stead of cleare manifestation of Ministers mantenance out of the stock of the Church you say we thinke we see most warrant for it from the New Testament and as most probable once disputed it but neither then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are perâ—â—ptory in it c. Answ What shall our modesty be now â—â—de use of against us Though it be so yet we shall desire to be modeâ—t Salust Bâ—l. Jug still It was the Commendation of 〈◊〉 that he did plurimum facâ—re â—inimâ—m de sâ—lâ—qui We hope God will never leave us so 〈◊〉 to ouâ— selves as to professe my doctrine or fâ—ll upoâ— aâ—â— practise confidently and perâ—â—â—torily as of divine inspiration or institution for which we have not a cleare evidence of scripture That tythes and stinted Church maintenance are unlawfull that Ministers are to be maintained out of the Church stocke the reception and distribution whereof appertaineth to the Deacons office we conceive we have solidly proved out of the word of God But that the Ministers are to be maintained by such a stocke as is raised by a weekely contribution because it is not absolutely cleare in the Text at least to us we thought fit to dispute it onely as probable If you could come as neare unto a demonstration of Classique goverment as this chapter doth to a demonstration of a stocke by weekly contribution of the Church and we had no more to say against it then yet we have heard for we cannot prophesie what you may hereafter produce against a Stocke raised by weekely contributions we should be tender how we mutter'd a word against Classique government 2. Except you can produce some one of the Congregationall way that in writing or disputation hath asserted weekly contributions to be of divine institution and binding to all Churches we shall esteeme the Position and scripture annexed as to such a purpose your owne invention As for us as we defended it in disputation so we have to the same purpose clearely manifested it to be sufficient pertinent and full of power viz. to make it probable that the Ministery should be maintained by a Stock raised by weekly contributions and see no cause to doubt but that we have solidly answered all your arguments to the contrary Lastly Colophonis vice as the close of this charge you conclude when you say we thinke we conceive its probable and doe never so confidently assert any of the severall Positions and do not prove the same by the severall texts respectively alleadged nor cleare the said text from all Objections made against your Exposition one materiall Objection unanswered being enough to invalidate the same you afford so many Arguments to any wise Reader that you have not clearely manifested the Positions and Scriptures where such Speeches are found to be sufficient c. Answ All that we have to say is this First That your triumph concerning our not proving the Positions by the Text respectively alleadged is before your victory Secondly Though one materiall Objection unanswered unanswerable you should say for our weakenesse may not peradventure be able to defend a truth doth invalidate our Exposition yet where we urge divers Texts to any Position if any one of them be truly urged and so unanswerable though you should invalidate all the rest as to such a purpose you may advantage the truth thereby but advantage not your cause at all So that one materiall Objection such as we have not yet met with in your writings though it might invalidate the Exposition yet possibly might not prejudice the Position at all The third Charge which you lay upon us that our pretending to prove some Positions and practises by other Scriptures and Arguments as to your intent expressed in the preface is but a By-matter For Positions and practises may be true and lawfull and yet not truly and lawfully grounded on the Text alleadged c. Answ When the King had burnt Jeremiahs Rowle and Jerem. 3â— 32. and he caused Baruch to write the Rowle a new it is said he added besides to them many like words If we had neglected to answer your Examination of the scriptures alleadged by us and had fallen upon new scriptures you might well have complained but we thought good measure pressed downe shaken together and running over would not have offended you And yet the truth is we know not how to please you the one way or the other In some sections though to our understanding we have not left any thing in the similitude of an Argument unanswered
they gave no such Command Answ You lately found fault with an argument of ours because it was a Comparatis alleadging that allusions and Comparisons are not argumentative if allusions and Comparisons were not capable of a better symmetrie and proportion then this of yours we should not onely not yeeld them to be argumentative but we should disavow and discard them as not illustrative For though it was not our intent as we said to answer all the branches of your objections with this one instance but onely that that deceives its strength from the truth of Churches and therefore your triumph out-running your victory might well have beene spared when you say your not bringing a more punctuall and more pertinent proofe argues either an implicite confession of the truth of my answer or inability to oppose it and though we have brought other punctuall and pertinent proofes which are above the reach of your instance yet though all were as you would beare the world in hand your Allegorie wants that due proportion that should render it illustrative much more argumentative For First it is not the practise of Congregationall members or Churches to take any much lesse as many good members as they can come by out of this and that and the other neighbouring Churches concerning which God hath given no Command that those persons should leave those Churches For so your comparison should be framed to make it runne paralell with the case Nay the Congregationall members make it their scope to take in none but those that having righteously withdrawne themselves from other Churches doe voluntarily tender themselves to communion with them that so they may enjoy those Ordinances purely with the corruption of which they were not onely polluted but endangered before And that they may enjoy other Ordinances purchased for their speciall edification by the precious bloud of Christ which their soules languished in the want of whilest they were some of them as members in the line of Parochiall-Communication Once more it is the scope and end of Congregationall members and Churches if we understand them aright sure we are it is our owne desire and practise to receive in no members but from such Churches in which we have no ground of hope in sight for a reformation in any tollerable proportion of time all of us having expressed the offence given us by Parochiall disorders to private brethren because it would have beene interpreted a disturbance of the Churches peace for private persons to speake publiquely against the received practise of the Church And some of us who by our calling were better enabled having not onely in vaine witnessed against the Leaven with which we saw the Churches leavened but also fruitlesly waited a long time for redresse of present greivances when there was no hope left have withdrawne 3. If God by meanes of this present happy Parliament wherein next under God is our present hope or by other should worke such a reformation that we might comfortably joyne with Churches meeting neerer to our habitations then our owne we should be willing for our parts and we beleeve the same of all our brethren to lay downe by mutuall consent our Covenant and fall into fellowship in severall other Churches especially where we were sometimes members respectively 4. It supposeth the Churches from which our members have withdrawne have as good right to hold their members as well as any man in Derby hundred hath to with-hold the stones of his house from those that without a just power endeavour to take them away which how you will make out seeing that you hold no other tie but the boundaries and limits of the Parish or Chappelry do so fervently dispute against expresse agreements and Covenants we understand not Yet if the waies and walking of Parish Churches were such as tended to the edification of the members and no just cause appeare of their removall or withdrawing we should not contest with you about it But if either visible wicked members be admitted to the Lords Supper without hope of redresse or the dispensation of the Lords Supper and execution of the power of the Keys and other Ordinances be wanting without hope of redresse we conceive they have no more power to with-hold such a member from joyning to another Church for his spirituall better accomdation than a Master hath to with-hold his Servant from removing to another Family that so he may not be enfeebled by being straitned in his food or endangered by the unwholsomenesse thereof 5. Fifthly But it may be there may be some more ground for your fift charge which is That we discover too much willingnesse to quarrell at your expressions a little after say you you discover too much willingnesse to quarrell at my expresfions wherein you say I would suggest that you make opposition to Magistracy but doth not Master Weld a Congregationall man when Master Rathband chargeth Independents to hold that Christians may and ought to set up new Churches and practise in them all Gods Ordinances without the consent of a Christian State yea against their peremptory Commands and established lawes and in the midst and against the minde of such Churches as they freely acknowledg to be the true Churches of God say of this Article no pen can expresse a greater latitude of opposition against Magistracy and Lawes and Churches too then he affirmes to be in us Doe not I use his owne words Print them in a different Character Cite them in the Margent c. Answ True you do so notwithstanding it was not discerned by us and the fault was most in your selfe For you print it in a different Character and cite Master Weld in the Margent but were defective in a letter to guide to the citation and hence the mistake For you cite Answer to 9 pos pag. 76. as appertaining to the letter U speaking of something that was proper to Apostolick men and then immediately joyne T. W. to W. R. pag. 67. by close to it without any other letter as if it had belonged to the same thing and so we received of it as you may discerne by our defence when we make any mention of that part of your answer which speakes of the Apostles preaching against the peremptory Command of Magistrates we print your Citation pointed at by the letter b and we annexe T. W. to W. R. pag. 67. to it as appertaining to the same thing The truth is we were faulty also because if we could have looked into that place of Master Welds booke we might have rcctified our selves in that mistake But that Booke was out of our way when we should have done it and afterwards we did not minde And as for the different Character we minded it lesse because for many causes the Character is changed besides that when other mens words are cited Had we beene aware that they were Master Welds words we would have have given a more pertinent answer which hereafter if there shall
there iâ— no difference in that betwixt us and the primitive Apostolicke gentile Churches 2. The civill custome of those Countries differ much from ours hence we are not bound to make the covering of a mans head a token of dishonour 1 Cor. 11. 4 5. 7. 10. Answer What ever it be that the Apostle meaneth by covering of the head for that is disputable it seemeth to us to be perpetuall and binding to all Churches as well as to that of Corinth because of the Apostles reasons in 1 Cor. 11. 7. 14. He saith ver 7. The man ought not to cover the head because he is the Image and glory of God but the woman must because she is the glory of the man And ver 14. he saith Nature it selfe teacheth that if a man have long haire it is a shame to him because haire is not given to him for a covering For so it is to be understood to make the Antithesis perfect But if a woman have long haire it is an honour to her because her hâ—ire is given her for a covering We think the reason is fetcht from the excellency of the one sexe above the other and that reason which is drawne from nature are perpetuall And if ever in force remaine still in force 3. The Church was then but in gathering from amongst Heathens and Jewes bence we want examples to convince refractory Anabaptists of the baptizing of Christian Infants c. Answ Such an argument as this you use to defend your selves in pleading for an Nationall Church Scripture say you mentioneth not a Nationall Church for beleevers were not so many then as to beare the name of a Kingdome or Nation As we conceived it weake against us so may the Anabaptists judge it unsatisfactory against them For can any one rationally thinke but that among those many thousands converted of Jewes and Heathens and gathered into Christian Churches there were not many who had Infant Children some of them borne before they were converted who upon such conversion of their parents were to be accounted Christian Infants and others borne after such conversion in that period of time which the history of the Acts of the Apostles fills up which Infants must also be stiled Christian Infants And if so then the reason of wanting examples of baptizing Christian Infants is not that which you alledge viz. because the Church was then but in gathering from amongst the Heathens and Jewes But because it seemed good to the Holy Ghost for what cause we dare not determine to forbeare the expresse mentioning of Infants baptisme 4. The Church was then under heathenish persecuting Magistrates hence they had no houses built for or appropriated to holy worship Answ In your Examinations pag. 6. you cite 1. Cor. 11. 22. and say To come together 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is if rightly translated to come together in one place and â—o Ecclesia is opposed to the buildings or houses in which they did eate and drinke in Here you say That the primitive Churches had not houses c. Doe you not manifestly contradict your selfe for if they were not houses in which they did eate and drinke in but did meete together in for holy worship were they not so farre forth set a part for holy worship If by appropriation of houses to holy worship which you say was not then in the primitive times but ought to be now you meane such a setting a part as must necessarily exclude all using of such houses to other purposes it is superstition so to conceive or speake But if you grant that â—se may be made of them otherwise then in Gods worship How are they then appropriated to Gods worship more now then in the times of primitive Churches For they were then knowne noted places at least among some Churches and capacious of great multitudes in which the Churches did ordinarily meete as from 1 Cor. 14. 23. appeares They meete in the night to pray preach and celebrate the Supper Ans And did they not meet in the day also How else did 1 Cor. 14. 23 the unbeleevers meet with them come among them Ministers had no setled maintenance Answ It is a non sequitur that because the Church was under Heathenish and persecuting Magistrates therefore Ministers had no setled maintenance Is there any rule for setled maintenance in the whole Gospell which yet being that there are predictions many of peaceable and prosperous times to the Church there might have beene if God had meant any such thing Nay there are intimations if not cleare declarations against setled maintenance to arise from the Churches There was then an extraordinary effussion of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles Evangelists and sundry of the Elders and people hence there was no neede of Universities c. Answ Yes there was neede because you speake but of sundry and the Apostle desired that they all might speake with tongues but rather that they might prophesie 1 Cor. 14. 5. therefore there might be use of schooles in reference to them that wanted extraordinary gifts Nor of studying for Sermons Answ Yes Else what meaneth the Apostle when he bids Timothy stirre up the gift c. and give attendance to reading c. No using set Prayers and Psalmes Answ Were there no set Psalmes in those dayes were those Psalmes Hymmes and spirituall songs which the Church at Ephesus and at Colosse and all the Churches did sing inspired by the spirit And were no scripture Psalmes sung in those times That will be a strengthening to them that doubt of the singing of Davids Psalmes As for prayers is there a necessity now of a Forme because extraordinary gifts are ceased May not an ordinary gift be sufficiently helpfull to put up prayers by We would thinke it should now be unseasonable to plead for set formes of prayer 6. The Apostles had the care of all the Churches and without difference taught and baptized and ordered matters in all Churches where they came now we may not expect such Officers but must be content with ordinary Elders amongst whom so much of their power as God intended to be perpetuall â—s divided Answ But if there be an universall visible governing Church which you plead for the Elders of it must have care of all the Churches and must Preach Baptize and rule where ever they come And the representative oecumenicall Church or Counsell consists of such Elders that every of them must have care of all the Churches Where then is the difference according to your principles betwixt the Apostles and such Elders in that matter And whether the Brethren do not share in some of their power you know is under controversie 7. There were then some extraordinary occasionall precepts and practises which binde not in ordinary as selling all to give to the poore Mat. 19. 21. having all things common Act. 2. 44 45. 4. 32. 3â— 35. Answ Selling all and giving to the poore was never a precept nor
also you would have the Reader to understand that the chiefe part of your answer viz. It is not said they gave themselves to the Church or Churches but to us viz. Paul aâ—â— Timothy is left without the least limit or intimation Answ Are not these words to be found in our defence pag. 44. The argument is fetcht a Comparatis the members of the Churches of Macedonia did as much in a like case they gave themselves to the Lord and to the Apostle and Timothy according to Gods will to be guided by the Lord and directed by them a whole Church or Churches to one or two persons gave themselves And an argument is fetcht thence thus then may one person that is to joyne to a Church as fitly give himselfe to the Lord to be guided by him and to the whole Church and Officers thereof to be directed by them according to the will of God Doe not we grant that it is not said that they gave themselves to the Church or Churches but to us viz. Paul and Timothy Nor doth the Position imply any other thing For it saith As the members of the Church of Macedonia did in a paralell or like case It speakes onely of something done proportionably to that which they presse where then is the injury done to you Is it in this that without mentioning your allegation as your allegation we have yet answered the whole strength of it Forgive us this wrong and retract your charge which though it have truth in it in the letter of your words in which it runs yet it wants truth in your scope in which you make it For you complaine of wrong to you and the truth of God but causelesly and most injuriously as from what is presented is manifest The fourth instance is out of Position 22 where you say Your whole answer to Revel 4. 4. is by an Index expurgatorius blotted out Answ We have sought up our papers and we perceive that in the copying out of the Reply for the presse the answer to this text was omitted Casu an Consilio we cannot say The answer was to this effect it hath been usually the practise of men of the most approved parts and unquestioned integrity after they have solidly proved a place by plaine texts of scipture then to adde as probable those which in their judgement lookt that way though more obscure as typicall and propheticall places The same is that practise of the Elders of New England in urging this place So that if you could make it out that the Elders have mist the genuine sense of the place yet you have but knockt off one of the Emblemata of the garnishings of the roome whereas the Position it selfe remaines unshaken by you 2. We doe professe our selves unwilling to defend the position by vertue of the text at least in that expression viz. of authority and governing power yet it may be those reverend learned and religious Authors are able to maintaine it though we by reason of our weakenesse dare not undertake it 3. As for the exposition that you put upon it though it be consonant to the interpretation of some learned writers and though it seemed probable to one of us yet upon further inexpectation though we absolutely reject it we have not yet these exceptions against it 1. We reade not of any eyes that the 24 Elders had but the four beasts were full of eyes Rev. 4. 8. Is this the meaning of it that the Churches in the foure Quarters of the world had eyes that is wisdome knowledge understanding to manage order guide and dispose of the affaires of the Churches But the Officers wanted eyes and so were excluded from directive power For this will follow upon your exposition at least if your argument against the interpretation which the Elders of New England give of Crownes prove solid You say by their exposition The Elders which are signified by the foure beasts are excluded from governing power for they sit not on Thrones nor have Crownes on their heads And we will say against you the Elders which you would have to be the Elders of the Churches are excluded from directive power for they have not eyes before and behinde as the four beasts have 2. We reade that the four beasts doe lead the four and twenty Elders in the worship and Service of God in the Church Revel 4. 9 10. When those Beasts gave honour and glory c. the four and twenty Elders fell downe and worshipped c. So also c. 5. 8. 11. 14. Now whether the Churches doe lead their Officers in all their worships they performe to God which will follow from your exposition or the Officers doe lead the Churches judge you 3. We see no absurdity in Masters Cottons and New-Englands brethrens exposition who make the four beasts to be the Officers of the Churches and the four and twenty Elders to be the members As for your allegation of Revel 7. 9. 11. 13 14. where you say That the Elders are distinguished from beleevers We answer to it We discerne not that the Elders are any more distinguished then the four beasts are which yet you interpret to be the Beleevers of the four parts of the world let the place be viewed 4. Though Master Cotton drive that by Crownes are Ensignes of authority any more then white rayment was an Ensigne of Priesthood yet he asserts that in some particulars that belongs to Church members which is the Priviledge of Kings that weare Crownes As 1. That they transact nothing by themselves but by their Officers 2. Their consent Cott. Case is requifite to the judgements that passe in the Church And therefore it may seeme lesse strange if they appeare with Crownes Having thus answered that part of your Epistle wherein you lay divers charges upon us we shall now more briefly answer the former part of your Epistle wherein you endeavour to purge your selfe from those charges laid upon you And you say The deepe and heavy charge as you call it in the first part of my preface against misinterpretation of scriptures as a belying of God counterfeiting the King of Kings hand though I now see how I have sped I re 〈…〉 t not of Answ Neither appeares it that you doe repent that you Psal 35. 11. have position 23 laid to our charge things that we knew not yea things that when we heard of them were of detestable consideration in our thoughts If you shall solidly confute our reply we shall justifie you in this impenitency but if otherwise we shall desire to mourne in secret for you and pray that God would give it an impression upon your spirit You have the more cause to repent if that be true which you alledge in the portall of your Epistle viz. that the Examination c. was for the most part an answer to some allegations as they were privately made to you for satisfaction For doe doubting brethren wanting light addresse