questioned till our Separatists rose up who are not comparable to them in parts or holinesse 2 I pray what doe you make of those Ministers who were ordained in the Primitive Churches Cyp. Epis 33 they were ordained in Cyprians time by Bishops and Presbyters and by Hieroms time the Bishops had ingrossed that power into their owne hands as appeares by that speech of his Excepting Ordination Epist ad Evagr. what doth a Bishop that a Presbyter doth not so that by this time it should seeme that the Presbyters were turned out and the Bishops only Ordained It is possible this might be but in some Churches for the fourth councell of Carthage ordered That no Bishop should Ordaine without the councell of his Clergy Can. 22. Can. 3. Now what were these no Ministers Anti-christ was not yet got into his Seat for the yeares of his reigne had been expired before this time It is strange that those should be no true Ministers who lived so neare the Apostles times and under persecution also as in Cyprians time neither was Cyprian surely the first Bishop that did Ordaine for there were Bishops before him yea besides this Ordination by Bishops we finde the Papists contending strongly for strange Rites which they use in Ordination and they say they were also used in those Primitive times for the anointing of the hands of the Presbyter that is ordained this they would prove from Cyprian or at least the Author of The Card. worke of Ch. who shou ld seeme to be as old as Cyprian also from Eusebius Hist Eccles l. 10. c. 4. which place would seeme to favour it and others there are whom they quote See Greg. De Val. to 4. d. 9. q. 5. Also for the shaving of the heads of their Ministers this we finde indeed in August time Ep. 26. Ep. 147. And this Calvin himselfe doth not deny to have been used then and gives the reason why it was used which Greg. de Val. scornes and gives other reasons To. 4. D. 9. q. 5. p. 3. If the Decret Epistles of Anicetus be of any Authority we shal finde it in his days long before Augustin and I wonder that Greg. Val. doth not quote him I am apt to think being they were so prone to Ceremonies in other Ordinances that something was added to this also Iust l. 4. c. 19 Sect 27. and I marvel that in the fourth Councell of Carthage where they set down their rites in Ordinations of other officers and some very ridiculous that the ordination of Presbyters should be the most pure but still with Bishops as well as Presbyters which is the thing now in hand 3 A Bishop if you consider him meerly as a Bishop was but a Minister and set apart to doe the worke of a Minister the same which all other Ministers may doe Bishops did Pray Preach Baptize administer the Lords Supper Ordaine Suspend Excommunicate and these things other Ministers doe and may doe that he did lift up himselfe above other Ministers that was his errour that he would take upon him the sole power of Ordination and Excommunication this was his errour but as the addition of an human invention did not null the Ordinances as suppose only growne persons had been baptized and that by dipping and after dipping they had been signed with the signe of the Crosse would this have nulled the Ordinance in the Anabaptists esteeme no more this usurpation of the power of administring these Ordinances did null a Bishop so as he was no Minister the Ordinances were and are Christs institutions Indeed you may call him an Over-growne Presbyter but a Presbyter 3 Ep. Ioh ver 10. Diotrophes loving of pre-eminence did justly deserve reproofe and John did no doubt deale with him but yet for present did not deny him to be a Minister though a corrupt one for the sole power of Ordination they tell us It is the order of the Church of England as of the Councell of Carthage that when a Presbyter is Ordained all the Presbyters that are present shall lay hands As for the sole power of Excommunication though it was an errour grosse enough yet by the 17. Canon Concil Sardic Ofius who was the cause of that Ganon being made was also at the Councel of Nice it should seeme the Bishops by that time had got that power to excommunicate alone which Canon provides a remedy for a person wrongsully excommunicated by his Bishop to got releefe by Appeales now if that corruption had got in so early long before Anti-christ had got to his Seat no wonder though it was found among our Bishops yet I hope they were true Ministers whom they Ordained As a Bishop was a Lord Bishop his Lordship was but a meere civill addition annexed to the Bishoprick by Regallfavour his Lordship was no ingredient into Ordination 4 The Lawes of this Realme doe account nothing Divine in a Bishop but his being a Presbyter Lond. vind 125. Dr. Seam answ to Diat p. 85. and therefore the Parliament in their Ordinance for Ordination tels us that they did ordaine as Presbyters not as Bishops much lesse as Lord Bishops yea I have heard a reverend Minister now Pastor of a Congregationall Church in Essex say that when the Bishop ordained him he told him I doe ordaine you as I am a Presbyter 5 The Ministers of England are ready to acknowledge those defects and corruptions which did cleave to their entring into the Ministry by the Bishops heare their owne words London Vindica p. 124. We doe not deny but that the way of Ministers entring into the Ministry by the Bishops had many defects in it for which they ought to be humbled but we adde that notwithstanding all the accidentall corruptions yet it is not substantially and essentially corrupted They acknowledge then the errour and desire to be humbled for it what more would you have God will accept of this I doubt not and why not you How to mend Dr. Seamans Divinity I know not where you have also the errour acknowledged implicitely for it is in answer to this Objection then giving his judgement in the case When sinne cleaves to the manner of Calling Answer to Diat p. 85. through the generall errour or corruption of all sorts of people who are concerned in it c. it is nototherwise to be invalidated here below then by doctrinall Censure and Repentance and not by iteration Repentance through Christs Bloud doth take away corruption out of Gods fight and will it not when they are so ingenuous out of your sight 6 There is a maxime taken up among the Independents Many may truly beare the name yea they owne it and practise accordingly yea and others and it goeth for as good Divinity as any the Gospel hath viz. That errours in Non-fundamentals must be borne withall in Churches we must labour indeed to convince people of such but if they will not be so convinced we must not
proceed any further to cast them out I have heard the New England Ministers sharply censured because they have excommunicated for some errours i.e. denying of some Ordinances which are supposed to fall within the compasse of Non-fundamentals This maxime is cryed up among the Separatists For the Thesis it selfe considering into what a narrow compasse Fundamentals are pent up I thinke it to be Apocryphall Divinity and just it is with God to let in errours in Fundamentals when such Church and Truthdestructive Principles are drunke in by godly Christians yet let us bring this rule and lay it to the case in hand I hope they doe not make rules for themselves if it be a true Christian Rule it is for all Christians Here then we have men qualified by God with Ministeriall and abundance of them personal gifts they have the election or consent of the people they are separated to the worke of the Ministry by persons who were Ministers but did erroneously assume too much to themselves now grant that here is an errour yet I hope it is not in a fundamentall point Some great Divines call Ordination but an Adjunct and your selves lesse you thinke it a Toy so then if you must not be separated from a Church for errours in Non-fundamentals then neither ought you to separate from a true Church for an errour which is not fundamentall Certainly if that rule hath place any where then here you will by this rule keepe Anabaptists Anti-Sabbatarians Antinomians truly such Anti-Psalmists Arminians c. within your Churches and not cast them out but forsooth a little errour in comparison of them and that acknowledged in the Ministers that is ground sufficient to cast off them and call them Antichristians c. yet there are no conscientious men but these the Separatists Gospel will afford Rules for them but not for other Christians As you trouble the Ministers here so I doubt they will trouble you in the Ordinations of your Ministers that is to make it cleare to them that private men have power to Ordaine I have seene it my selfe when two private men have imposed their hands upon him who was to be their Pastor Another I know whom a Carpenter and a Taylor Ordained with imposition of hands I doubt the Ministers will put you hard to it to prove that this is according to the Rule yea when other Ministers but of other Churches were present these have imposed hands If we consult with the Gospel we shall finde it rather to favour a Bishop though no Lordly one by the example of Timothy and Titus from whom our Bishops proved their Superiority and sole power of Ordination to Ordaine then private men and that in the presence of divers other Ministers I am sure this will be hard to prove from Scripture I shall speake a few words to this point afterward Suppose any of the Bishops had been of that opinion that none but persons growne and making confession of their Faith ought to be Baptized and they would Baptize only by dipping would not the Anabaptists have judged this to be true Baptisme would they null this Baptisme because he was a Bishop since he was a Minister set apart to that worke c. as Austin baptized many thus after he had been in England a while who yet was an Arch-Bishop was that no true Baptisme I doe not thinke that the Anabaptists if they have any braines in their heads will deny that Baptisme were nul if that were good so is Ordination for the substance of it If there have been no true Ministers nor Ordinances nor Churches but where there hath been no humane mixtures nor wicked persons then there hath been but few Ministers Ordinances or Churches since there was a Church upon earth and if there ought to be separation from such Ministers and Churches then we should have found Separatists enough how hardly was Superstition kept out in the Church of the Jewes before the Captivity say how many yeares Alsle Chron. p. 2153. Goodw. Mo. Ar. l. 1. c. 10. Chemnitius in 10. Ioh. takes theeves there to be the Pharisees for their order was not instituted by God nor brought in by the Prophets but only a humane invention and through their owne boldnesse Afterward when Christ came were they cleare what thinke you then of corrupt Caiphas the High Priest his corrupt entring into and his continuance in the place for one yeare So the Pharisees a Generation that God never instituted their Schoole began some say two hundred and forty yeares some say more before Christ and for their Superstitious inventions they were not barren in them but did Christ so soon as he came to Preach call away the people and bid them separate here are corrupt Officers c. No we finde no such word nay he bids then heare Matth. 23. After Christ I pray tell me how long did the Churches continue without Superstitious mixtures I doubt you will finde the Church hath not been long free but we doe not finde separation presently and nulling of Ministers as now Men should doe well to give us a precept or example out of the Word where Ordinances have been dispensed true for the substance though some humane mixtures have been joyned to them that therefore they were iterated If they cannot give us a direct precept or example shew us it by a necessary consequence from Scripture I wonder men should be so forward to iterate Baptisme and Ordination as these Separatists call for without Scripturall grounds 9 There are hundreds of Ministers in England who were not Ordained by Bishops but you separate from those also they had the election of the people first then with fasting and prayer solemnly set apart to the worke by divers godly and learned Divines who were against Bishops yet these are also scorned by your selves as much as the others but forsooth because they were Ordained by Bishops and had not renounced their Ordination and taken their Ordination from you therefore that infection spreads even to all Generations Out of what I have said I may pick up some answers to this but for troubling the Reader and the truth is they are in some sence unreasonable men I deale with but this let me say it is strange that when an Ordinance is purged in it selfe and those who administer it renounce what defects have cleaved to their owne Ordination only for the substance owning it as another Ordinance may be corrupted or rather have corruptions annexed to it but not nulled by those accidentall corruptions that this infection should adhere so strongly that it cannot be mended but by nulling of it Friends this cavilling will not doe in the Day of Judgement Besides I pray give me an instance where it was ever practised that persons that were not Baptised did Ordaine a Minister If you aske me What need that question for we are Baptised therefore it doth not concerne us By whom I pray If you say by the Ministers
then I desire no more if they were so farre Ministers as to administer Baptisme to you then they may well administer Ordination to us renounce therefore the Baptisme you had by them so I am sure you cannot ordaine and when you are regularly re-baptised and can warrant your Act and prove that you have the power to Ordaine then we will listen to you For my owne Ordination it was in the face of my people the day was spent in fasting and Prayer those who carried on the worke were Mr. Dan. Rogers Mr. Marshall Mr. Ranew with other godly Ministers who joyned with them in the imposing of hands the Ministers lived about me I never saw that Ordinance carried on with more solemnity in my life the people shewed their election by suffrage holding up their hands all was done according to the Pattern but yet I am a man as much scorned as other men who were Ordained by Bishops I can submit to God in that scorne that these cast upon me for I deserve it at his hands only there was a foule errour committed at my Ordination and it is told up and downe by some of this kinde against whom I write and I pray what is it This The Ministers imposed hands in my Ordination this hath been talked of as a strange thing but let me answer for the Ministers it was no errour much lesse such a great one as you make it 1 If private men Carpenters and Taylors may impose hands why may not Ministers but the former have done it Ergo. 2 All the Ordinations that ever I saw in New England were performed with imposition of hands I have seene Deacons ordained thus 3 If you be wiser then the Elders in New England Answ to the 32. que p. 67. Survey of Church Dise p. 2. p. 74. and Master Hooker then over-throw them for they conceive it nearest to the institution 4 If you observe the examples in the New Testament which are our Guides in Church affaires we shall finde Ordinations have been thus performed as Acts 6.6 Act. 13.3 1 Tim. 4.14 1 Tim. 5.22 Heb. 6.2 Laying on of hands Which place by Classicall men Congregationall men and Separatists is interpreted of Ordination I doe not here bring in the practise of Churches in former times because I intend not to handle the controversie Whether imposition of hands be necessarily required in ordination but bring you in as many examples from Scripture where there were Ministers Ordained without imposition of hands as also the practise of other true Churches Orthodox and sound who doe Ordaine without c. or else be ashamed of your ignorance and charge not those men with errour where none was but a true following the patterne The substance and essence then of Ordination being this That persons qualified Ministerially be set apart or separated for the worke of the Ministry by persons in Office ordinarily it must be thus what may be done extraordinarily when no Officers can be had is another case the Ministers in England have that Ordinance for the substance and they have the election and consent of the people it is hardly to be supposed that every individuall person in a Parish will consent to every godly Minister but consent there is hence these two concurring to the Call which is the forme of a Minister many Presbyteriall Ministers are true Ministers I dare say more but I am sure now I save my selfe But I have not done with Ordination yet I shall meet with it once againe afterwards Let us now come and try the second ground for separation scil The Worship of God the fault here must be reduced to one of these three heads either 1 Because they cannot enjoy all the Ordinances of God in these Churches Or 2 Because the Ordinances of God are mixed with humane inventions that they cannot partake of them without sinne Or 3 Because here are other Ordinances set up in the Churches then ever Christ did institute I cannot conceive any more For the first Suppose it were so that there were a defect of some Ordinances is that a sufficient ground for separation Mr. Hooker saith no. If a Father of a Family wants a Rod in his house The preface to Survey of Church Discip is it ergo no family there may be some disorder in the house for want of good Government yet a family Divers Divines of great note conceive by that text Nehem. 8.17 18. That the Church of the Jewes did omit the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles almost the space of a thousand yeares the Arke was absent from the Tabernacle from the time of Eli to the time of David 1 Sam. 4.11 compared with 2 Sam. 6 17. and it was a great fault the Scribes rejected the Baptisme of John but where doe you finde any separation all this while that the godly should not joyne with that Church and partake in what Ordinances they had But this objection hath no place in these Churches for Prayer Preaching Administration of the Sacraments yea Discipline they had in the Episcopall dayes they did suspend from the Lords Supper and the Bishops gave the Ministers power but suspension is the lesser Excommunication and now to be sure there are none wanting at least should not be if the Ministers were not hindred in setting up all the Ordinances Obj. No say you the Classicall Churches have no explicite Covenant for the forme of them they will not admit it into their Churches therefore we separate I shal meet with this in another place only for the present disprove what Mr. Hooker hath said and the former examples I have given you but yet you will have a hard peece of work to prove this to be a sufficient ground for your separation as afterwards I hope I shall make good For the second Humane mixtures in Ordinances This indeed was the ground of the old Separatists yet in those dayes many holy and learned Divines wrote against the Separation but in these dayes that stumbling blocke is removed and this let me say that if you read over all the Church-stories since there was a Church upon the earth there cannot be found any example of such separatists as are now amongst us the old Donatists had their Ministers yea Bishops as well as Presbyters the separate Churches of later dayes had their Ministers and how strictly did they maintaine and practise all those Ordinances which ours laugh at as singing of Psalmes Infant-Baptism observation of the Sabbath and such opinions as those learned and godly men Mr. Ainsworth Robinson Johnson did abhorre are swallowed downe among ours so that these men cannot ground their practice from any example heretofore and as for the Scripture if they can finde any grounds there I must confesse I am altogether ignorant in the Scripture Suppose there should be some human mixtures though for my part I know of none are all the Ordinances so polluted preaching and prayer were kept pure in the Episcopall dayes
with this logicall affection of an Adjunct and the other with the affection of a formall cause I should put most upon that where the Scripture is plainest and fullest which I am sure in any mans esteeme that observes those Texts with an impartiall eye is ordination Whether Ordination according to Scripture-light be not as essentiall to a Minister as Election Vind. chu Cath. vis let any one judge I thinke Mr. Hudson speakes Christianly I preferre one Divine Testimony before ten arguments and one good argument before ten humane Testimonies But thus by cloathing these Scriptures with these logicall affections we have cried up election and cryed downe Ordination sectaries take advantage of this and hence come in our disorders Ordination is a Divine institution Ars est in rebus and Logicke is a generall Art so that we must give some logical terms to Election and Ordination I deny not this onely it is good to bring Art to Scripture and not carry Scripture to Art If you aske what logicall Arguments are there betweene a Ministers call and Election and Ordination I said before these two constitute the form of a Minister mutatâ affectione mutatur argumentum Survey par 2. pag. 68. in 4 praec what if I should answer The Call is Totum integrale Election and Ordination are membra constituting this Totum Thus I make Election to be essentiall and so I speake the highest of Election though I must professe upon serious thought I rather question whether Election be essentiall then I doe Ordination Reverend Mr. Hooker indeed saith Ordination is but the approbation of a person constituted in his office but I am apt to thinke Ordination doth most respect that inward or Arcanam vocationem as Zanchy calls it which God gives a man into the Ministry fitting and qualifying of a man first for the worke which none else can do and giving him an earnest desire to the worke God did there as it were separate him inwardly and now he doth it outwardly in Ordination The particular Congregation doth but give him a Call by their election and subjection to him to exercise this power among them pro hic nunc That which moves me to thinke so is First Churches may not choose whom they list as doe our Sectaries but persons qualified by God Secondly the Scripture is so full and cleare for Ordination over it is for Election though I deny not but Election may well bee proved Thirdly because a man may in some cases be ordained to the Ministry when no election of the people doth precede as I shall give instance afterward 2. I argue thus If the election of the people doth give the essentials to an officer then may a man elected execute all officiall power without ordination and that commonly But no man may execute officiall power and that commonly without ordination ergo election doth not give the essentialls by the essentials here he meanes the formall cause for as for the materiall cause they cannot give that and we have but two causes that doe dare essentiam though all foure doe dare esse The consequence is cleare that they may execute c. without ordination for forma dat operari but election gives the forme say these Reverend men and ordination is but an Adjunct effects doe not depend upon Adjuncts for operation the forme gives that The minor that they must not doe so First it is crosse to Scripture presidents if it were but a Deacon Survey part 3. pag. 9. saith Mr. Hooker yet we see he was ordained Secondly It is crosse to your owne practise it is frequent in New England to have a man elected and preach halfe a yeare a whole yeare yea I know one elected and preached two yeares to his people and they maintained him all that while and yet all that time he never administred a Sacrament to his people but he and they when they would partake of the Lords Supper went ten miles to the Church out of which they issued to receive the Sacrament but this was very hard and needlesse if he had the forme given him in election 2. That which doth nextly invest a man with official power so as now he may performe officiall acts and before which he could not doe so that doth give essence and consequently is not a meer adjunct But Ordination doth nextly invest a Minister with official power so as now he may perfome official acts which before he could not doe ergo The minor is clear by the Scripture examples Secondly it is clear by your owne practise for those who for two yeares and more stood onely by election but that while dispensed no Sacraments when they were ordained did presently put forth all official acts The major take all together I suppose will not be denied it doth nextly invest a man with official power so as now he can performe official acts and before he could not doe it to say he had official power before given him by election but could not act it is strange frustra est illa potentia c. had such a person continued twice as long unordained he had not executed any official power nay his preaching all that time was not esteemed preaching by way of office Neither can it be said such preach onely upon triall for I now speake of such as had beene tried before nay have beene preachers in England long before they went over and such I am sure as the people would willingly had them ordained within one month after they had chosen them they were so well satisfied in the persons whom they had chosen Fourthly it is something that solemnity the Scripture expresseth that was in the ordination of Ministers prayer and fasting and imposition of hands we read of no such solemnity in election though people ought to pray before they doe choose So it was in New England this act was very solemne when notice was given of the ordination of an officer to the severall Churches as before any ordination all the Churches adjacent had notice given it ran in that forme There is an Ordination to be this weeke at such a Church c. for the election of the person we knew it long before whom they had chosen and though the people did by their suffrage declare their election in this day of Humiliation yet they declared no more then the Country knew before and I hope you will not say he was not elected before now when first they chose him to goe with them or come to them and there continued a yeare or two preaching they contributing to his maintenance the same I might say in regard of myself I had as ful an election of my people at my first coming as was declared at my ordination and it was above two years before I could get my ordination in the place where I was elected through the troubles of the times but all that while I did not conceive my selfe invested with
official power till I was also ordained The Scripture then expressing such solemnity in this act and not in the other makes me thinke this is not such a slight Adjunct and the other onely essentiall Fifthly I observe two Texts which make me think ordination is not an Adjunct 2 Tim. 2. And the things which thou hast heard of me among many witnesses the same commit thou to faithfull men who should be able to teach others also And that Text 1 Tim. 5.22 Lay hands suddenly upon no man neither be partakers of other mens sins c. Timothy is a Church-officer here is a charge given to him to take heed who comes into the Ministry yea he may be partaker of other mens sinnes if he have not a speciall care whom he admitteth into the Ministry Nam si quem cito ordinaveris qui indignus sit Communicare cum dicit peccatis qui non probatus fuerit ordinatus Hieron in Loc. v. Zanch. in 4 praec p. 784. c. communicabis peccatis alienis dum ille malè docebit aut vivet saith Gerhard in Loc. He quotes also Leo Papa Ep. 87. Ad Africanos Episc Quid est citò manus imponere nisi ante aetatem maturitatis antè tempus examinis ante meritum laboris antè experientiam Disciplinae sacerdotalem honorem tribuere non probatis Calvin also on the last words Keep thy selfe pure Ac si dixisset si quid perperam fiat ab aliis vide ne ulla ex consensu vel approbatione contagio ad te perveniat He referres it to Timothy joyning with others in ordaining unworthy persons now these texts doe not belong to the people but Ministers Officers as was Timothy which makes me thinke that what the Ministers doe in examining trying ordaining is more then the peoples election where doe we finde such things spoken to the people Where the greatest blame lyes for unworthy men coming into the Ministry surely there must lye the greatest power of admitting men into the Ministry else the blame is not just but we see the blame is here layed upon the Ministers ☞ Paul no where writes to the people to commit the things they have heard c. nor doth he bid them not lay on hands suddenly c. he bad them indeed looke out men for Deacons but that doth not answer these texts but if the great stroke the formall cause lye in the popular election the Ministers may well say We doe but ordaine we give but an Adjunct the people did the maine Act they gave the essence the essence being given we must give the Adjunct so that there will be no blame left for the Ministers 6 It should seeme by a passage of Doct. Bellar. Ener To. 2 l 3. c. 2. S. 12. Ames that ordination is more then an Adjunct Bellarmine had said Vocatio seu missio ministrorum non ad populum pertinet sed ad Episcopos c. Doct. Ames in his second answer hath these words Absurdè ad modum distinguitur vocatio ministri ab ejus Ordinatione electione tanquam pars distincta neque in Scripturis neque in antiquis Patribus alia vocatio ordinaria memoratur quam illa quae exurgit quasi Totum ex electione ordinatione what Totum the Doctor meanes is plaine by his words Exurgit ex ordinatione electione he meanes Totum integrale so then ordination and election are members of this Integrum but all the members doe give essence to the Integrum for Membra sunt symbola causarum essentialium If so then ordination cannot be an Adjunct in respect of a Ministeriall Call for no Adjunct gives essence but followes the essence supposing the subject compleat in its essence before if then ordination doth give essence as well as election this notion may hold else we should have an Integrum consisting but of two parts and but one part give the essence which cannot be This notion of a Ministers Call to consist as a Totum ex electione ordinatione is much nearer the Rule then to have election alone to give the essence and ordination to be but an Adjunct To this agrees Mr. Jacob a man well known There are two essentiall parts of calling to the Ministry Election Ordination Dr. Seaman quotes him Ans to Diat p. 64 so the Calling is a Totum As for the Objections made against this if ordination be essentiall what then shall become of our Ministers whose ordination is not legitimate This I have spoken to before and so what will you doe in case a Church were so cast by providence that they could get no Officers to Ordaine them an Officer for those who are of this opinion deny the People power to ordaine it is easily yeelded by our Divines that may be done in an extraordinary case which ordinarily ought not to be done See Rutherford Due right of Presbytery p. 187. Gillespie Miscel p. 34. c. for my part I conceive then the Church fasting and praying for such a one who is elected may doe that which is aequivalent to ordination though it be not ordination formalitèr The strong argument where-with reverend Master Hooker proves That Election gives the Essentials to an Officer is this One Relate gives the essentiall constituting causes to another But Pastor and People are Relates ergo The answer which Mr. Rutherford gives to it viz. That ordination made him a Minister before and election doth but appropriate him This Mr. Hooker denyeth to be any answer because it supposeth ordination to antecede election which is quite crosse to the Scripture pattern Act. 6.3.6 But with favour I should humbly propound this question This is not a bare supposition for one of the young Schollars doth now preach to the Indians in their language Whether Ordination may in no case precede election As now in this case Suppose one of the Schollars in the Colledge or suppose foure or more had learned the Indian Language and upon examination they were found to be Ministerially qualified suppose now the Presbytery should solemnly set apart these young men to the worke of the Ministry and send them forth to preach among the Indians though the Indians have not elected them here indeed would the essentials of an Officer be given without election I pray what breach of rule would here be If it be said that the examples mentioned Act. 6. Act. 14. shew their election goes first It is true indeed where there are Churches but here are none Besides Act. 13.3 when Paul and Barnabas were sent out to preach among the Gentiles they were ordained Though some deny ordination here to be meant yet many learned men affirme it when no election did precede it is true they were extraordinary Officers but what then though this doth not make those young men extraordinary Officers as were the Apostles to have power in all Churches yet I see not any breach of rule in separating them to this work If it
the people being but a homogeneall body to reject i.e. excommunicate an ossicer will cost more to prove had Reverend Mr. Hooker beene alive and saw what work Church-members make here in England in very many Churches I thinke it would have caused him to bethinke himselfe againe of the peoples power Something we heare of is done in a Church not farre from the place where he lived it cannot be kept close the light of that fire shines into England For the people to withdraw their subjection from such an officer when there are no other officers to joyne with them to excommunicate him this is not denied for by their subjection to him they made him their officer that was some part so they may withdraw their subjection againe But for Excommunication Mr. Cotton saith It is one of the highest acts of rule in the Church Keys p. 16 and therefore cannot be performed but by some Rulers Mr. Burroughs saith Iren. 51. If the Church be without officers they cannot doe that which belongs to officers to doe they have no Sacraments amongst them neither can they have any spirituall jurisdiction exercised amongst them onely brotherly admonition and withdrawing from such as walke disorderly for their owne preservation So then here is a way for the people to preserve themselves though they cannot excommunicate and those Texts which Reverend Mr. Hooker brings Matth. 7.15 and Phil. 3.2 doe not prove the Church as a homogencal body to have power to excommunicate their officers though they may prove withdrawing as also Rom. 16.17 may prove it For the reason of his consequence that staple rule ejusdem est Instituere destituere this maxime is turned every way sometimes to prove the people may excommunicate their officers because they doe Instituere The people in Election put forth no act of jurisdiction therefore they may put forth the highest act of jurisdiction in excommunication that there is no act of jurisdiction in election Doctor Ames acknowledgeth Ovas rationales possunt eligere sibi Pastorem sicut sponsa eligit sibisponsum non per jurisdictionem aut Gubernationem sed potius per subjectionem In the answer before he affirmes the same and else-where now what arguing is this Bellar. ener to 2 l. 3. c. 2. S. 19. Ib. S. 13. to argue from subjection to the highest Act of Jurisdiction there was no Authority in election for electio non cogit yet there is more power seene in Civill elections then Church-elections as I shall touch afterward but in Excommunication Authority appeares That also is denied that the people doe instituere in constituted Chruches and ordinarily what may be done in an extraordinary case is no ordinary rule Here the maxime is turned to prove that they may Jnstituere because they can destituere but that will be denyed unlesse it be in the sence before mentioned i. e. in what manner and how farre they did instituere i.e. by a subjection to be their Officer so they may with-draw their subjection from him and not owne him to be their Officer but to Excommunicate is more Quest But suppose this be granted that the Fraternity cannot excommunicate their Officer but with-draw their subjection they may you say and so he ceases to be their Officer but what is he now an Officer to other Churches A. If the with-drawing their subjection and rejecting be irregular then though they make him not their Officer de facto which he is still de jure yet his relation to the Church-Catholick visible doth still hold and another Church giving him a Call he hath then power actu secundâ— to administer the Ordinances there For instance the separatists cast off him whom before they chose for their Officer supposing now unlesse he will renounce his ordination he is no Minister doth he therefore cease to be a Minister how bufie some Congregationall Churches are in with-drawing from their Officers it is too manifest and many goe to the Anabaptists some turne Seekers and-if all the Members doe thus doe they now cease to be Ministers 2 But if the with-drawing be regular the cause just tried c. then that which is sufficient ground for their with-drawing from him is just cause why he should be excommunicated being pertinaciously scandalous or Hereticall as Mr. Hooker supposeth If then the case of a Church be so as they are cast by providence into some remote place where are no Churches besides to combine with then as their election of him c. as I said before may supply the want of ordination so this with-drawing in such an extraordinary case may be Analogum to excommunication but say our Divines if that Church be in combination with other Churches as now under a Classis then the people shall not need to stay there in their with-drawing but the case being judged and tryed by the Classis they as they ordained him when the people elected him the people consenting doe excommunicate him then as a man cast out of one Church is cast out from the Catholick Church visible so he who is cast out from being an Officer to this Church is cast out from being a Minister to the Church-Catholicke visible For the other Argument Burro Iren p. 50 Nort. resp ad Apoll. p. 76 78 the people conveying of power to an Officer I know of no power the people conveyes only a designation of such a person to officiate in this or that Society but their power they receive from Christ immediatly as our Congregationall men affirme and hence they act in his Name not in the name of the Church 5 The last answer I would give to this Proposall is this if you conceive this to be the only way of Reformation then you must give the Ministers strong proofe that you may ordaine the Ministers will as much question your power to ordaine as you question the Bishops power so that we take it for granted you are able to prove this because you are so punctuall you say for reforming by the word But of this practise I much doubt 1 My ground is because I finde not one Iota of any such thing in the New Testament Obj. Though you doe not in the New Testament yet in the Old Testament there is Numb 8.10 A. That place is the only resuge but 1 It is commonly answered That it is no faire arguing to goe to the Old Testament for one thing we would have and when another comes to the same Politie for an argument for their turne now to debarre them and tell them this is the old Politie either leave out the Jewish Politie altogether or else give others leave to fetch Arguments from thence as well as your selves 2 If you will goe to that Politie why may I not as well prove That the Civill Magistrate may ordaine as well as Moses did Aaron Levit. 8. 3 But in that Church at that time there were Officers Aaron and his sonnes thence if that be a rule it must follow
that though there be Officers in a Church yet the people may ordaine which I am sure those Divines who are for the peoples power in ordination will never admit being crosse to their owne Principles and Scripture 4 We finde in the eleventh verse that after that was done Aaron did wave these Levites before the Lord so that they were not compleat till Aaron had done his Act whence I remember learned Master Cotton in his discourse with me said the peoples 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there did but answer to the peoples 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the New Testament and Aarons waving of them did answer to our 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 this clause only I remember but he had a larger answer which I tooke from him in discourse by which I remember he did enervate this Objection but I lost his notes with all my other helps in my shipwrack These men call for precept and example give you us one for this in the New Testament for you put us to that also we must give you them out of the New Testament yea Iwould goe further and desire them to give me one examplein the first six hundred yeares after Christ that ever the people did ordaine their Minister now this is strange to me that we can finde no foot-step of any such thing in the Scripture nor in the Ages next and yet that we should make it so frequent that they must ordaine most frequently for if every particular Church be Independent as now such a Church where I am in a small Village where the maintenance will not keep one Minister and therefore to be sure we cannot have more Ministers then if the Minister remove or dye if there come a new Minister the people must ever ordaine thus it must be in most places in England few will be excepted Iustin Mart. Apol 2 and if every new election must have a new ordination then it must alwayes be in the peoples power In the Primitive times there were Churches in Cities and Villages but that the Christians in Villages did ordaine their Officers I would gladly see that proved Ordination in those times was carried by a continued succession the Apostles ordained some Ministers those ordained others so downwards but never by the people Learned Dr. â—ell ener to 2. l. 3. c. 2. s 6 Ames seemes to answer this for whereas Bellarmine had said In novo Testamento ubicunque mentio fit manunm impositionis semper ea Apostolis caeterisque Episcapis nunquà m vero plebi tribuitur The Doctor answers to this In Historiâ novi Testamenti exempla babemus constitutionis Ministerii ejusdem etiam conservationis sed non restaurationis ejus aut reformationis post generalem Apostasiam omnia igitur quae pertinent ad plebem fidelem in tali casu non representantur ibi certis exemplis However these words seeme to carry it as if the Doctor did hold that the people had this power in a generall Apostasie yet I question whether the Doctor would looke upon the Churches of England now under such a notion neither would he deny the ordination of our Ministers to be valid for substance but yet here one might cast in something in times of Reformation it may be he saith 1 To Reforme the Minister is to Forme it now as it was first formed But the Ministry was not at first formed by the people ergo the Ministry cannot be now reformed by the people I thinke the Major will not be denyed for the Minor let any prove that According to this some will say We must have Apostles they formed the Ministers first we speake of ordination I say Non sequitur unlesse you can prove the Apostles ordained only quâ Apostles if so I know not how those Ministers whom the Apostles did ordaine could ordaine others but to be sure they did 2 I defire a text of Scripture that holds out this that the people may ordaine in a generall Apostasie 3 I doubt we shall rarely finde such times when there is a Society of godly Christians to ordaine but there is some Ministers also ordinarily there are Ministers who teach this people 4 It will be a question Whether the Apostasie hath been such as to require this for if Baptisme was not repeated but was thought valid though administred by a Romish Minister because he was set apart to the worke and kept the essence of the ordinance why might not the ordination administred by those Ministers hold as well 2 A second ground that makes me doubt is this it seemes strange to me that Christ should appoint extraordinary officers and make that a part of their work which the people themselves may doe Paul leaves Titus to ordaine but what needs that the people might well say what need Paul leave Titus to do that which we can doe our selves Frustra fit per plura c. the Apostles never needed but to preach and convert the people to the faith when they had done so they should have said we have now done our worke brought you to be beleevers you may now elect an Officer and ordaine him your selves the power is yours onely here would have been some trouble about baptizing since then I finde that this was part of thier Office then I cannot beleeve this is the peoples worke Paul might easily have left us a president in some Society of Christians that would have quieted all our disputes More might be said and is said by others but I see our New England Divines do almost yeeld it by giving power to some Ministers to ordaine in other Congregations Since nothing can be drawn from Scripture by precept or example to prove this hence some would draw it out by Argument Those who can do the greater may doe the lesse The people can doe the greater viz. elect Ergo The minor is as freely denyed as it is affirmed election is not the greater Scripture-light being judge That was the designe I doubt of making Ordination but an Adjunct for so indeed it would easily bee granted if election gives the essence and this only be an adjunct the people may well ordaine Yea and in a Church where there are Officers to Ordaine I know not why they who give the essence may not give the adjunct why should an adjunct be proper to the Officers only in that Church when the essence doth not belong to them Mr. N. W. Omnis quaestio non per aliud quod quaeritur babebit resolutionem nec ambiguitas per ambiguitatem sed ex elaris manifestis c. Irenae l. 2. c. 10. further then as members they joyne with the people for so it seemes the Officers elect as members and if you doe elect only as members why should you not also ordaine as members for election is the greater this the lesse The other Argument is the people are the first subject of the power of the keyes Ergo But this is not easily yeelded it was a
be said what need of that Ordination they may preach without It is true they may but it is not so comfortable as when men are set apart by a Divine institution there is an authority more conferred they may now baptize as they finde successe of their Ministry which was the old way and shal not need be put to those troubles which now they are Suppose laborious Mr. Eliot were not ordained who should baptize the Indians called home to Christ by him The first preachers that came into England were ordained before elected here as suppose they should convert divers Indians forty or fifty miles from any Plantation how shall these be baptised what shall they now elect and ordaine these men shall unbaptised persons ordaine an Officer where have we a rule for that then it seemes all these must come to another Church c. forty or fifty miles distant to a Church also whose language they understand not and there be baptised by a Minister whom they understand not nor he them Here are many odde things fall in crosse to all Scripture presidents but to have these ordained and sent forth is not crosse to the Scripture presidents but if this be granted then Ordination without election may give the essentials to an Officer But further here you say election gives the essentials I beseech you what shall we doe then with all those Scriptures where ordination is held out so fully shall we omit them if they containe but an Adjunct No I am sure this gracious Saint would not doe so his heart was so awed with high thoughts of God and his Word that he dared not omit such a Divine institution as those Scriptures hold out are then those six or seven Scriptures alledged for ordination as necessary to a Ministers Call as those three which are brought for election if not I pray give a reason why some Scriptures should be lesse set by then others in this nature Divine Authority we acknowledge in both but this was far from this reverend mans thoughts for we see him prove Church-Discipline to be a fundamentall point of Religion from imposition of hands then if these Scriptures be equally as necessary to the constitution of a Minister that none must dare to omit them we doe but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in saying that ordination is but an Adjunct c. In constituted Churches those who omit ordination goe crosse to those many texts of Scripture they follow not the patterne Some I know make little of election but I would give it the most and so sin against the second Commandement as do they who go crosse to the texts for election and if election in an extraordinary case may serve without a formall ordination in the like case may ordination be without election and so we are even Further in answer to the Argument they are Relates suppose I should say The election of the people gives a part of the essence to the Officer for so we considered the Call of a Minister to be a Totum arising out of election and ordination as Doctor Ames it may be you will say Relata quà sic doe not give a part of the essence but the whole here then will be our trouble whether we must bring Scripture to Logick or carry our Logick to Scripture why then doe not Ministers act officially upon bare election as I said before But it is answered their election gives the essence as he is their Minister but ordination gives the essence as he is a Minister Mr. Hudson hath spoken closly to this Vind. Chur. Cathol visâ—â— p. 138. ad 151. for ordination doth invest a Minister with power to act beyond those who have called him giving him an habituall power in actu primo to exercise and performe the Acts belonging to his Office elsewhere upon a Call I know indeed our New England Divines many I say not all as wel as reverend Mr. Hooker are of another opinion That a man is an Officer only to his own particular Congregation Relatorum mutuum est iter but suppose I should say A Minister bears an habitual relation to the whole Church-Catholick visible which some of our Divines doe now I thinke strongly prove for my part I could never swallow that notion that a Pastor preaches only as a Pastor to those who elected him and to other Churches as a gifted Brother I dare boldly affirme in the Apostles times and the purest Ages next them this notion was never heard As for this notion of a Catholick visible Church I have not so much busied my head about it till of late in my weak judgement I think there is so much said for it by Mr. Hudson especially and others that I suppose it will not easily be answered that which made me leane to this opinion was First the light which his Scriptures and Arguments bring along with them 2 I did not see by this notion that the people were at all defrauded of what is properly theirs they may elect officers they may have power to bring in testimony to exclude unworthy communicants yea or may object against any who should be admitted Church-members if Churches were in their first constituting if they knew good reason why they should not be admitted neither are they debarred from consenting with their officers in excommunication I say I doe not see but these priviledges may consist with this notion 3. Mr. Huds vind 160. 161. Let particular churches walk as they should regularly and they have as much liberty as they can desire if they walk irregularly See Mr. Cottons Keyes 53.54 the second Impression I saw this notion did not crosse that Position which I have held out viz. That a particular Church organized and walking regularly may execute all the power of the Keyes within it self I see not how a particular Church in this case is at all hindred for such a Church to walke irregularly and to claime exemption from all other church-Church-power let those that will be members of such Churches I desire not to be so but in such Churches where there may bee meanes to helpe a wicked heart 4. In this notion I saw a way how Congregations that have no Ministers may have Ministers ordained successively by officers which I am sure was the old way yea and officers may be judged per pares and excommunicated I saw it would bring in much order into Churches 5. The practises I observed in New England that did imply such a notion as this did lead me much to it 1. As that members of one Church did so frequently partake of the Sacraments both the Lords Supper and Baptisme in other Churches one Pastor it may be might administer the Sacrament of the Lords Supper to the members of five or six Churches at one time I know it is often said that a Mayor of one Corporation may administer justice to the members of another Corporation if they be under his jurisdiction but he
subject for reciprocation cannot bee with them for Preaching Administration of Sacraments Government c. to be sure the people cannot doe there will be more said for the Presbytery they actually choose they actually admit they actually govern and exercise discipline they have both the Power and the Act but for the people they cannot doe any Act which belongs to the Officer nor have so much as the power of it we may see by this where the power will cheifly reside to say the Fraternity though they have not officiall power yet they have power to chuse an Officer and so consequently they are the first subject this is very unsatisfactory to have the Adjunct reciprocated at the second hand it being denyed before that they have the Adjunct the reciprocation betweene homo animal risibile is not at second hand 2 This doth not at all shake me but I stand on my ground still conceiving that the Church or ganized is the first subject of the power of the Keyes not that I make the people equall sharers in the power of the keyes with the Officers but what I mean I shall expresse afterwards 3 Yet am I not satisfied nor could ever be that whatever belongs to the Church must needs be included in the power of the keyes Election I look at it only as Potest as circa claves but not to be a power of them The Text tells us the use of them what thou bindest what thou loosest to bind and to loose is the use of them but what is this to the election of an Officer when as hee may refuse their Call or the Call of any Church how doe they loose him or bind him Electio noncogit For the other two things Admission and Discipline Those Divines who say that Baptisme makes men Members of the Church if they can prove this strongly they will carry away the former scil that the people have nothing to do in Admission of members for baptisme makes members now to this I cannot yet fully agree there might be much said for the contrary I conceive the New England Divines have spoken well to this besides the opinion of M. Cartwright Ans to 32. Qu. p. 12. and Ames who joyn with them So those Divines who affirme the Presbytery may excommunicate renitente plebe if they can prove it strongly they will carry away the latter and then indeed its cleare the people have no interest in the power of the keyes but this neither can be admitted and the streame of Divines oppose this But though I yeeld the Ministry cannot orderly doe these things without the people yet I deny the people do these things in the same way and order that the Ministry doth them And therefore Quaere Whether it be proper to say the people hath any power of the keyes For Admissions this will be more troublesome because we finde no examples of the Churches where the people did shew their power in Admissions for that act of Paul Act 9.26 27. Whether it be sufficient to prove it I leave it to consideration they did not admit why they were afraid of him the text saith being a persecutor then no wonder the Apostles as well as the people were afraid of him the 27 verse saith Barnabas carried Paul to the Apostles not to the people which would imply the Apostles carryed the stroke in Admissions Further to search into this let us suppose the Ministry of the Church of Corinth preach an Infidell heare them the man is so far convinced of the vanity of his Heathenism and danger of his sinful lusts he wallowed in and so far convinced of the necessity of that Doctrine which he heares that he renounces his Idols reforms his conversation c. now he comes to the Ministers to signifie what is done and what he desires to be received into the Church and be baptized being willing to give up himselfe to that doctrine the Ministry instrumentally hath wrought this now what power hath the people here to hinder this man is it at their choyce whether they will admit him or no when the Officers see what effect the preaching hath had here being a Disciple made shal they be hindred from baptizing him what power have the people here what shall they goe first and examine him I know not where examination was ever given to the people must he make his profession of faith before all the Church as Victorinus that brave Rhetorician Aug. Con fes l 8. c 2. we find it was not their course to doe so with all those whom they admitted for many did onely to the Presbyters This power indeed the brethren have that if any know this man to live in a known way of wickednesse that cannot possibly stand with any hopes of faith to come and give in witnesse against such a person to the Officers I suppose this will be yeelded and the Officers would not now baptize him But what power more they have I know not they see his conversation and can testifie of that but it were strange that it should be left to the peoples choyce whether they will admit a man or not when the word hath had so much power and they cannot bring in sufficient objections to the contrary Put case the major part of the members of the Church had drunk in some errors that a major part may do so hath been proved in our time and they will not give their consent to the admission of the man if they finde him not of their opinion commonly those who have drunke in error use to look untowardly upon those who are contrary now the Ministers have no power to admit this man nor baptize him though they see he hath right to it But I leave that For Discipline I conceive renitente plebe the Eldership should not excommunicate it is in vaine to doe so indeed if the people will hold communion but yet this doth not argue that the people doe here act as doth the Eldership For the Eldership doth it Authoritativè the people by a popular consenting with the Officers that the person bee excommunicate the people doe act here obedientially to their Officers therefore a vaste difference is betweene them I remember a passage of Mr. Hookers in the Assembly of Divines When a case is brought to the Elders the Elders having searched all things to the bottome now the Elders bring the case to the Fraternity and lay it down clear before them this is the case and this ought to be done now said he the people are bound to obey us as well as when wee preach And it is cleare for as in preaching they discover the minde of God so in this sentence they declare the same concerning this act Keyes 15 2 Cor. 10.6 We have in readinesse to revenge all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled Mr. Cotton saith the Apostles revenge of disobedience by way of reproofe in preaching doth not follow the peoples obedience but
proceedeth whether the people obey or not it was therefore their revenge by way of censure in Discipline which they had in readines when the obedience of the Church is fulfilled in discerning and approving the equity of the Censure which the Apostle or Elders have declared to them from the word That phrase discerning and approving of the equity needs a little more clearing but I leave them However this Reverend Divine seems to refer that obedience unto the wil of Christ by the words going before his exposition yet that hinders not but it may in some sence be applyed to their officers who also obey Christ for that phrase is not strange to have people obey their officers Heb. 13.17 O bey your Rulers there may be some thing in it not only obey your Teachers but Rulers when they rule as when they preach Mr. Norton expressing Resp ad Apol. p. 67. as I conceive how the brethren act with the Eldership for so I remember it was in his Tables which I had had some thoughts to have Printed them but in that great fire when Colchester was besiedged having lent them to a friend they were burnt as I heare Partes judicii in rebus jurisdictionis quales sunt fratrum examinatio dijudicatio sententiatio Causae per modum obedientiae Presbyterio debitae 2 Cor. 10.16 cap. 2.9 Mr. Gillespie also besides his own opinion giveth reasons Aar rod p. 289 c. and alledgeth divers Divines who interpret this place of Church censures these words when your obedience is fulfilled gives him one ground for his interpretation for as Estius and Novarinus explain the Apostles reason it is in vain to excommunicate all such as are worthy of excommunication when there is a generall renitency in the Church but still we observe the people act obedientially to their officers that they did not at that time was their fault Besides if excommunication be the highest act of Rule and therefore cannot be performed where Rulers are not as saith Mr. Cotton and if a homogeneall body can expresse no spirituall Jurisdiction but onely withdraw as saith Master Burroughs then the people having Rulers are not now made Rulers nor have the power of jurisdiction there is indeed jurisdiction exercised among them by reason of their Rulers to whom they consent and obey Government is proper to the Presbytery saith acute Mr. Norton Resp ad Apol. p 65 67 and shewes under seven particulars how the Presbyters governe in Church affairs and so in this exercise of Discipline if so then the people are governed in this act how then doth a people governed act in reference to Rulers governing but by way of obedience So that to mee there appeares a vaste difference betweene the power of Discipline as it is in the hands of the Presbytery and as in the hands of the people though the Ministers cannot excommunicate without the people I speake a few words to this point here because I would spare the labour in another place As for the Analogy drawne from the civill power the people are the first subject of civill power Ergo the Fraternity is the first subject of Church power For the Antecedent I leave that but the consequence I should deny there is a great disproportion First The People are not the effect of their Magistrates or follow after them as the people of Israel were not of Saul but the Fraternity quâ sic is the effect of the Ministry The Apostles converted and after them the Ministers converted Converting is but to make the people such for whom the power of the keyes is given Secondly There is some thing in this In Corporations if the people have elected a man to be an Alderman or Mayor if he refuse it there is a Fine set upon him some have been fined 20 li. some more according as the Corporations are but if the body of the people will choose an Officer and he will refuse it what then I know no kind of Church act that reaches him this shewes there is something more in civill then Church power Thirdly The people do give to their Magistrates a power to make Lawes c. for their good but the Church gives no power into the hands of her Ministers but they have all their power immediately from Christ Fourthly Hence the people may limit their people or inlarge it But the people cannot limit nor inlarge the power the Ministers have Fiftly We see the Magistrates Act in the name of the people in the name of the Commonwealth of England but Ministers doe not act in the name of the Church but Christ as saith Mr. Burroughs and Mr. Norton before quoted More might be produced but I content my selfe with these and though that maxime be received Salus populi Suprema lex yet it hinders not but the people may save themselves though they be not the first subject of the keyes Mr. Richardson whom Dr. Ames and Mr. Manuscr Tables Hooker honoured much and follow much placeth the power of binding and loosing in the Governours not in the people This discourse I have runne into by answering to the first Proposall which being the maine I have bestowed more lines about it the rest I shall run over quickly Come we now to the second The second Proposall may be this The second Proposall No Congregational Divine dares put the forme of a Church in the explicitenesse of the Covenant but these doe Survey pare first p. 47 48. Wee would have an explicite Covenant in every particular Church this we judge to be the forme of a Church and we cannot joyne with a Church without it A. Many people have taken up this by the end a Covenant is the forme of a Church understanding it of an explicite Covenant but they know not what a Forme is if they did they would be more wary then they are But let us heare what Congregationall men say from whom you take up this word 1 Mr. Hooker saith an implicite Covenant preserves the true nature of the true Church c. and an implicite Covenant is when in their practise they doe that whereby they make themselves ingaged to walke in such a society according to such rules of government which are exercised amongst them and so submit themselves thereunto but doe not make any verball profession thereof Thus the people in the Parishes in England when there is a Minister put upon them by the Patron or Bishop they constantly hold them to the fellowship of the people in such a place attend all the Ordinances there used and the Dispensations of the Minister so imposed upon them c. by such actions they declare that by their practises which others hold forth by publick profession thus farre Mr. Hooker so Mr. Norton Resp ad Apollon p. 22.28 so the Confession of Church Disc by the Synod of New England 2 You have a Nationall Covenant a solemne one I thinke it is strong enough if you
Separation Examined OR A TREATISE VVherein the grounds for Separation from the Ministry and Churches of England are weighed and found too light The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable but likewise so hurtful to the Churches that Church-Reformation cannot with any comfort go forward so long as such Separation is Tolerated Also an humble request presented to the Congregational Divines that since the differences between them and the Classical-Divines are very small they would please to strike in with the Classical-Divines in carrying on the worke of Reformation before the Inundation of these corrupt Opinions have destroyed both Ordinances and Religion By Gi. Firmin Minister to the Church in Shalford in Essex 1 Cor. 1.10 Now I beseech you brethren by the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that yee all speake the same thing and that there be no Schismes among you Judicabit autem eosqui schismata operantur qui sunt immanes non habentes Dei dilectionem suamque utilitatem potius considerantes quà m unitatem Ecclesiae propter modicas quaslibet causas magnum gloriosum corpus Christi conscindunt dividunt c. Irenae l. 4. c. 62. Cavenda sunt autem fratres dilectissimi non solum quae sunt aperta manifesta sed astutae fraudis subtilitate fallentia c. haeteses invenit schismata quibus subverteret fidem veritatem corrumperet scinderet unitatem Cypr. de unit Eccles LONDON Printed by R. I. for Stephen Bowtell at the Bible in Popes-head-Alley 1652. The Contents THere are true visible Churches in England pag. 1 There is a true Gospel-Ministry in England pag. 4. The grounds of Separation must be either in the Ministry Worship Congregation or Place of meeting p. 12 The Ordination of the Ministers by Bishops can be no ground for Separation p. 22 There can be no ground in the Worship being singing of Psalms is here touched p. 32 There can be no ground in the Congregation though many wicked persons be there Nor in the place of meeting p. 39 The Proposals of the Separatists what they would have are set downe and answers returned as 1 They would have Ministers lay downe their former Call and joyne with them then they it may be will elect them and ordaine them where this question is handled p. 46 Quest Whether election only gives the essentials to a Minister and Ordination be but an Adjunct p. 50 Whether the People have power to Ordaine p. 70 Whether the Fraternity be the first subject of the power of the Keys briefly touched p. 73 2 They will have an explicite Covenant which they call the forme of a Church p. 81 3 No Church-Members but visible Saints p. 82 4 Power in Admissions and Excommunications p. 83 5 Liberty to Prophesie p. 84 6 Liberty of Conscience p. 88 How it appeares that Church-reformation cannot with comfort proceed so long as the Separation is Tolerated p. 91 The Separatists are no such-friends to the Civill Power as is pretended p. 94 The Questions propounded to the Separatists in reference to their Separation p. 97 The agreements and differences with and between the Classicall and Congregationall Divines are reviewed their agreements found to be many their differences very few p. 100 Whence an humble request is presented to the Congregationall Divines speedily to joyne with the Classicall Divines backed with seven reasons p. 108 To the Reverend the Ministers of London the Authors of the Vindication of the Presbyteriall Government and Ministry c. Printed 1650. Fathers and Brethren THe goodnesse of God manifested of old to England in causing the Sun of his Gospel to rise early upon this Nation and to finde such entertainment in the hearts of the Supreame Power that it was the first Nation that ever received the Gospell with the countenance of publick Authority having the first Christian King that ever was is knowne to the whole Christian world his goodnesse in these latter dayes since he tooke from our necks the Anti-christian yoke hath been also wonderfull honouring the Ministers of his Gospel with such Holinesse Learning Ministeriall abilities and successe in their labour in converting many and setting up the power of godlinesse in this Nation that he hath not honoured any Nation more nay without pride it may be spoken his Free Grace hath not honoured any Nation so much in these respects as this English Nation but now in our dayes the Ministry which God hath thus honoured is as much dishonoured and that by such who cannot but acknowledge their owne mouthes have spoken it that what Spirituall good they have received it was wrought by the Ministry and now we finde scorning deriding separating from the Ministry and many not so much as stepping over their thresholds to heare them who were the first instruments of their good if they have any as some we hope have and yet the Ministers are the same they were before yea some repenting that ever they bestowed so much paines and time to follow the Minister as one that lives but foure or five miles from Dedham hath said He repented that he followed that eminent Servant of God Mr. Rogers so much to heare his preaching While I observed these things and considered into what a sad condition we are fallen and read over your Vindication in which I saw a holy meeke and true Christian spirit breathing calling upon the Congregationall men to joyne with you certainly I thought that Booke deserved a courteous Christian answer from the ablest of our Congregationall men what they have done towards it I know not being little acquainted with affaires abroad being locked up in much sadnesse of spirit at home but I thought with my selfe that being I was numbred among the Independents though I am the weakest and most worthy the holy Lord should turne me out of his holy Work laying other things together which I have mentioned in the Epistle to the Reader I resolved to improve the little Talent the Lord had given me in examining the grounds of these practices and to stand up in the defence of such Ministers who I saw were deare to Christ and whom in holinesse learning and abilities the Lord had honoured farre before my selfe And now my Fathers the quarrell is not only with you because you are Presbyteriall Ministers the quarrell is with the whole Ministry for this spirit hath infected even some in New England and I beleeve will cause more troubles there in those Churches then ever the Bishops did though they threatned them much What are the practices of some and what are the feares of the worthy Ministers there I understand by Letters I doe not I dare not censure the Congregationall Churches here some of the Ministers I know to be holy and reverent I wish I had such grace many Members no doubt are really godly but had I not lived in New England and seene the Churches there by what I heare of divers and what I know by some Churches here
adversaries that trouble our Reformation I thought to have taken occasion here to cleare my selfe from what Mr. Edwards had writ concerning me but the man being dead I rather let it alone for sin I thanke God he hath charged me with none I know if ever the Lord bring such an unworthy wretch as I am to heaven I shall not beare Mr. Edwards a grudge for what unkindnesse he hath offered to me here But whereas Mr. Edwards hath branded me for an Independent some of miserable Colchester have told me that I have altered my principles but I know no reason why the one should charge me to be an Independent nor the other for departing from my principles for I never declared any thing in publike but onely once which was concerning the matter and forme of a visible Church for the government of the Church never troubled me but how to have the people reformed and scandalous persons debarred from the seales of the Covenant and persons brought into a posture fit for Discipline but what is this to Independency Once also I expressed this that I conceived a Church organized and walking regularly might execute all the power of the Keyes within it self I never expressed any thing more there concerning Church-worke but did labour to keep alive the old truths which I found my heart had more need of then to preach about Church-government in such a Towne as that was But if you say though I did not expresse it openly yet I was an Independent in my judgement but how can men charge me with that whiâ—c neither in publike nor private they ever heard me expresse but then to deale plainly I shall set down what manner of Independent then I was and then you shall see how much I am altered In these points I did joyne with the Congregational-men First I thought none but visible Saints to be fit matter for a Church Secondly So the Belgick Churches I thought a promise from the people to subject themselves to Church-discipline was of very great concernment to carry on Discipline with strength and comfort as likewise to subject themselves to all other Ordinances as became Christians Thirdly though I did owne the Churches of England for true Churches yet because for want of Catechising and Discipline they were overgrowne with ignorance and prophanenesse I did desire the grosly ignorant and prophane to stay a while before I gave t heir children the seale of Baptisme that having got knowledge and conversation freed from scandall the Ordinance might be administred with more comfort Fourthly I thought that if Churches were now constituting the Officers should not receive any into Church-fellowship against the consent of the people giving sufficient proofe against them Fifthly I thought the Officers ought not excommunicate any person If the people did not consent to them not that a Church must be obstructed if two or three have a minde to be crosse Sixtly I thought a particular Church organized to be the first subject of the power of the Keyes and according as Mr. Cotton held it out but this I did not expresse publikely Seventhly I did somewhat question whether the Officers of one Church had power to excommunicate in another Church But in these points I was no Independent First I could not be clear that the people were the first subject of the power of the Keyes Secondly neither that the Fraternity had power to ordain formally Thirdly that a Minister should preach onely as a gifted broth er out of his owne place Fourthly I could not consent to have the godly people taken away from a godly Presbyterian into an Independent Church Fifthly I could not approve that Independent Churches should refuse to communicate with Presbyteriall Churches though there were good store of visible Saints for want of an explicite Covenant By this time I hope I shall be no ranke Independent But where is then my thanging of my principles let these men prove it for I am the same still onely since I read Mr. Hudson I doe somewhat waver about the first subject of the Keyes and this is all my change That my minde may be cleared against whom I write I observe Separatists are not all of a size some separate from Ministers Churches and get into their private houses owne no officers but please themselves with their owne gifts and opinions these are the persons whom I chiefly aime at as such that so trouble us that no Church-discipline can hold so long as they stand Others live in places where there are visible and reall Saints the Ministry godly and able yea it may be called to the place by these persons but because they cannot have all they would picking a quarrell with the Ordination of their Minister c. they choose some other Minister in some other Towne and so depart from the Prebyterial to a Congregational Church continuing still in the same Parish It is well these men hold up Ordinances and Officers yet the grounds of their practice the ensuing Discourse will try I am sure peace and unity among Churches cannot possibly stand with this practice it is very sad that we should not yeeld a little where we may nay where we ought for peace with our brethren whom we cannot but judge holy and sincere If there should sometimes fall out a quotation somewhat sharp yet I pray doe not thinke that I apply it to all Separatists but to some among them who may deserve it What successe my poore endeavours shall finde I know not I looke for little good they shall doe amongst the Separatists who with an imperious scorn neglect to listen to or read any thing which tends to overthrow their practice and though they be so confuted as they are not able to answer a word yet they scorne to acknowledge their error and returne to the Congregations from which they have separated which to me is a clear demonstration that however these men pretend conscience yet it is no such thing for were these men lead by a pure conscience considering how they separate from holy men such also as have beene instruments of their soules good considering also how they weaken their hands grieve their spirits they would heare read pray take any course that they might be sure to be found in the truth Act. 13.36 But I leave the successe to God my desire was to serve my Generation and there I rest Separation Examined I Will not trouble my selfe to prove that there is a visible Church upon the Earth or true visible Churches in England I thinke there are none that owne the Scriptures who will deny the former though there are some who deny the latter unlesse I meane the Congregationall Churches which they will acknowledge to be Churches but none else yet many of those whom I write against doe not owne them for though they have opportunity and may joyne with such Churches yet they refuse to doe so being unwilling I perceive to come under or
and he was the new creature one of Mrs. Hutchisons followers on a Lords day stood up in the Congregation and would defend it against the learned and reverend Teacher and told him the text was read so in the original If any man be in Christ the new creature 2 Cor. ◠17 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 what can these men say to this that know not the Originall nor Grammar both which a man must know to answer this so if another should defend a heresie and tell you the text is so in the Hebrew for the Jesuits subtle and crabbed disputations we must not mention them these men are doubtlesse sufficient not but that I could allow a solid humble experienced orthodox and well-gifted Christian called regularly and set apart to the worke of the Ministry with the neighbour-hood of some learned able Divine to have his recourse to I say I could allow such a one to preach in dark corners of the land But when men will cry out of other Ministers for want of orderly calling separate from them and thus carry themselves that the bones of their ambition sticke out and then through unfoundnesse in opinion though no way able though not regularly called yet they will get into Livings and Pulpits this is abominable So much for Election that part of their calling will hold as for the other requisite Ordination to prove our Ministers have that also for the substance of it here will lye the pinch of the controversie therefore I reserve it for another place Fourthly for the finall cause here also the Ministers will appeare to be true Ministers for conversion and edification the Lord hath honoured the English Ministry with as much successe as any Nation under heaven the Lord hath set seale to hundreds of our Ministers in giving them some soules in conversion and building up many according as are their severall gifts and for a proofe of it let me appeale to your selves who have thus separated from them Cannot you say that you have found God in their Ministry I am sure your owne words must witnesse against divers of you if you deny it for you have acknowledged by them you were first awakened and brought home Now I beseech you consider what you doe you who are the soberest and retaine the savour of God in your hearts If Christ shall say to you Why doe you deny these to be true Ministers I owne them to be such I have qualified them with Ministerial and personal gifts I have sealed to their Ministry by making them my instruments to bring home many and to build up those who were brought home I have often humbled awed cheared refreshed the hearts of my people by them your owne selves who are mine are witnesses of it I found you out by them c. They had their call from the people and though there were some circumstantiall defects in their setting apart to the worke yet those they freely acknowledge and I doe as freely pardon will not my presence with them make up that defect in your hearts still to owne them and reverence them as my Ministers since I doe Now I say what would you answer to the Lord Jesus I doubt not though many have their infirmities as who have not many infirmities yet Christ doth owne them for his Ministers and Paul or the Apostles if they now were alive would not deny it Object If you say that indeed God did goe along with the old Ministers but not with these Answ But the same argument you give against these Ministers from their Ordination doth make as much against these old Ministers as these now living they were no true Ministers neither by your opinion 2. We can say that even with the labours of these Ministers doth Christ goe along though not so much as he did before when the Gospel came first into places for edification we finde it which is one end in that Ephes 4.12 and I pray take heed that your scorning of them be no occasion to hinder their worke for you must answer for it what ever the Decrees of God be So much for my first argument 2. I would use a second argument to prove we have true Ministers c. And here I would propound one question to these men who thus deny the Ministry It is this Were there ever any true Ministers and Churches let me put in them also since the Apostles dayes I hope you will say yes But I pray how long were there such Ministers and Churches in which Century did there cease to be true Ministers and true visible Churches I suppose you will say when Antichrist began here now you would doe us a good turne if you could make it out cleare to us when that was that so we might know how long our miseries shall last if so then to be sure for the first three hundred yeares after Christ which were times of persecution yea and divers yeares after you must grant there were true Ministers Let us then compare our Ministers and Churches with them for our Ministers many are godly as well as those all the Ministers then were not truly gracious I beleeve nay by stories we can learne they were not As for Ministeriall gifts those who have skill to compare the workes and Sermons of our Ministers now with their workes and Homilies shall finde that the Presbyterial Ministers are not behinde them but in opening the doctrines of Free-grace Christ promises which are the glory of the Gospel as also for discovering of Hypocrisie without any dishonour to those Ancients I may say they do excell them For the Churches it is true we know not what we should doe if the Lord should call us to sufferings but this we know the same power which carried them through is able to carry us through for losses of estates leaving of their native Country c. I am sure New England hath gone very far with them for that kinde of suffering and so have some here also yea and for not submitting to superstitious Ceremonies and inventions of men in the worship of God which they even in those times made nothing of How many vaine rites and ceremonies were then used in Baptisme * By Tertul. Cyp. Ep. 59 The kissing of the childe By August time there were many Ceremonies added Symb. ad Catech. l. 4. c. 1. Lib. de Coro mil. Ep. 70.72 Tertul. de Bap. which our Ministers did never owne but were silenced c. for lesse matters yet these were the primitive Churches Besides those Ceremonies in Baptisme there were other strange things used which our Divines never owned I say in those primitive Churches As the Anointing of the baptized As Cyprian It is necessary that the baptized person be anointed c. yea and puts much in it as one may see who reads those Epistles Tertullian also makes mention of this Hence Fabianus ordered that this oyle should be prepared every yeare and reprehended those who kept it two
is most cleare it was in the Congregation for when the people were gone exercises being finished then it seems she was wont to tell the officers I suppose he means what revelations she had which they noted exactly Tertullian then is so plaine and full for this practise that none can doubt whether the Churches used this Ordinance or no. Socrates Scholast speaking of the Hymns which Chrysost appointed his own people to sing in opposition to the Arians Eccles Hist l. 6. c. 8. in the end of the Chapter tells us that Ignatius a man very familiar with the Apostles saw a vision of Angels which extolled the blessed Trinity with Hymnes that were sung interchangeably and delivered unto the Church of Antioch the order and manner of singing expressed in the vision so he would make Ignatius the Author of Anthemes I somewhat doubt whether that manner of singing was so ancient but that singing was I doubt not then in practise 4. Quest. Resp Orth. q. 107. Just Martyr or whosoever was the Authour of that booke shews it was in use in that time setting downe with all the benefit that comes by singing So that in the Apostles times and the ages next to the Apostles we finde singing was in use If we come a little lower to the year three hundred sixty four I finde in 15. Canon Concil Laodic none were allowed to sing praeter Canonicos Psaltes here was a corruption got in by this time crosse to the command of Paul in his Epistles to the Ephes and Coloss but this implies that singing had beene before in use in the Churches and that the people were wont to sing that now they limit singing to the Canonicall Psalmists That Athanasius used singing in his Church appeares also in August Confess l. 10. c. 33. also that the Psalmes of David were sung then appeares in the same place and in his 119. Epist c. 18. where he affirmes that for singing of Psalmes and Hymnes we have the examples and precepts of Christ and the Apostles blaming withall the Donatists that learning Davids Psalmes they sung Hymnes of their owne inventing c. As for those who would allow singing if it might be of some spirituall song composed by some Saint now upon some occasions I doe not now trouble my selfe about them onely I wish them to make better songs then that brother of one of the Churches in London I doe forbeare to name whose Church it was who composed a song to be sung on the day of Thanksgiving for the overthrow of the Scots at Dunbar I heard the Song read over and the party who read it told me it was sung in the Church I deny not but the man who composed it might have an honest heart but sure he had but a shallow head in comparison of what men should have that compose such Songs If these be not grounds sufficient to answer that scoffer let him give me better grounds to prove singing of Psalmes is no Gospel Ordinance So much for the second branch the worship can be no ground of separation Now I come to the third Let us see if there be sufficient ground for separation in respect of the Congregation The Congregations are very corrupt they say hence they thinke they are bound to separate and alleadge these places 2 Cor. 6.17 Revel 18.4 1. That there are very many corrupt persons in the Presbyteriall Congregations there are none deny it and I wish the Independent Churches have not some corrupt persons also amongst them you doe not heare them justifie all their Church-members but you shall finde them complaining of this corruption and endeavouring by degrees to correct it yea I beleeve had they power in their hands they would soone shew what they would doe I pray heare some of their words Vindica p. 115. the London Ministers Though we dare not make separation from a true Church yet we doe make separation in a true Church Read over the whole Answer and you may perceive their mindes P. 76. before this in their exhortation to the Ministers and Elders you have this one branch of their exhortation That they would labour to make their Congregations pure as well as peaceable following after piety as much as after verity and unity that all your people under your charge may be visible Saints at least Review of Mr Hoo a p. 89. ad 97. you may feele how the pulses of these men beat I observe also Mr. Cawdry differing very little from Mr. Hooker in this point about visible Saints being the materiall cause of a Church where you may see what he would have if Discipline were once stablished that the Congregations are thus corrupt See him also p. 202 the fault is not in them but in the old Hierarchy whose Errours while they goe about to mend you goe away from them 2. I am sure very many Parochiall Congregations in England have both visible and reall Saints must these and the Ministry be cast off for the sake of other corrupt ones whom they would gladly also mend if they could or else purge them out 3. I wish you would give us precept or example where there have beene Churches with so many visible Saints and such Ministers and these Ministers desiring and labouring to reforme as they doe and yet that Christians have done or should separate from them Those Texts above mentioned and often alleadged if you please to view them well againe are very far from proving it Corrupt members there were enough in the Jewish Church and so in the Christian Churches soone after and in the Apostles times but you have no example of separating from them but in them say the London Ministers we doe separate 4. But I pray wherein doe these wicked men trouble you I hope you will give men leave to heare the word be they never so wicked but many of you come not so much as to heare Object But they trouble us because they mixe with us in prayer Answ No mixtures ever troubled me in Ordinances so much as my owne heart The Grecians before they went to kill the sacrifice used to cry out to the people 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let us pray Rous Arch. Att. l. 2. c. 9 They prayed also in the Temple c. 7. if I could separate from that I should bee happy But for Prayer why would not you have them joyne in prayer when as First Prayer is a part of naturall worship the light of nature dictates this to every man if he owne a God then pray unto him Jonah 1.6 Call upon thy God c. but I hope none in your Congregations but owne even the true God therefore they are bound to pray to him Secondly Peter when he saw Simon Act. 8.22 in the very gall of bitternesse yet bid him Pray God Then worst of men may pray Thirdly Prayer God hath used to be a converting Ordinance I have knowne one my selfe that now is in heaven
but was at first a notorious wretch ' a mock-God Captaine of Drunkards who coming into the Church as the Minister was in prayer God brake his heart and followed it on so as he became an eminent Saint Object They mixe with us in our singing mixed worship we cannot joyne in Answ I cannot conceive what harm this can do to you is the mixing of your owne corruption in your service lesse prejudiciall to the acceptance of it with God then the presence of wicked men joyning in the service If indeed you can prove to me that God will not have wicked men sing but if they doe he will not accept of the service of his people this is some ground for your exception but I conceive you will not be able to prove the former much lesse the latter That wicked men may sing I prove thus First If wicked men may pray unto God as the light of nature teaches then they may praise God the light of nature teaches this also nature teaches me to pray to God for what I want and nature teaches me to praise God for what I receive If then naturall men may praise God with their mouths for praise must bee expressed with tongue or pen if you take it properly as I said before why not by singing God hath given this gift to them as well as to others But that to praise God is a part of naturall worship and belongs to all men we may conceive by the example of the Philistims Judg. 16.23 They met to offer a great sacrifice to Dagon and to rejoyce because of Sampson Here is a day of Thanksgiving so 1 Chron. 10.9 because Saul was slaine c. If we goe to the Romans we shall finde nature had taught them to sing to their feigned gods Godw. Rom. Ant. l. 2. s 2. c. 19 not to transcribe their rites in their sacrifices After the portion layed out for the gods had beene burnt then did all the people repaire to a common feast where as they were eating they sung hymnes and songs in the praise of their gods and playing on Cymbals they danced about the Altars intimating thereby that there was no part of their body but should be imployed in the service of their gods c. If nature taught the Romans to sing hymnes and songs to their feigned and foolish gods why should wicked men be debarred from singing to the true God 2. We finde Exod. 15.1 Moses and the sonnes of Israel sang a song to the Lord in v. 12. Miriam bids the women sing I doubt not but among these sonnes and daughters of Israel there were persons as corrupt as any in our Congregations then the presence of wicked men doe not so defile you or the Ordinance as is supposed to themselves indeed it was polluted as are all other things but this hindred not Moses nor Miriam they did not separate all those who were godly from the rest and sing onely with them I doubt they should have had but few songsters 3. May a wicked man read a Psalme or one of those songs give me a reason why not Will you debarre a wicked man from reading the word If he may read a Psalme why may not he sing the Psalme To read the word is worship so to sing the Psalme is worship It is true he cannot sing as hee should no more he cannot read the Psalme as he should nor heare c. therefore he must not read nor heare the word To sing is we see taught by the light of nature as well as the other to pray read or heare the word This Ordinance is not as the Sacraments which we doe not see so by natures light but have them by divine Institution revealed having also a sealing nature annexed to them 4. We finde the word calling upon all sorts of persons to praise God Psal 96.1 Sing unto the Lord all the earth Psal 68.32 Sing unto the Lord all the Kingdomes of the earth c. Severall such texts we finde I might adde more Arguments and answer to some objections but I content my selfe with these Object But they mixe with us in the Lords Supper Answ That the presence of others defile you especially if you have done your duty to keepe that Ordinance cleare is a thing that our Congregational men utterly deny those who are acquainted with their workes may see it often mentioned therefore I quote none 2. I wil be bold to say there are many Presbyterial Ministers who have as few wicked men at that Ordinance as were in the Church of Corinth There were more matters of exception in that Church for the Sacrament of the Lords Supper then are in abundance of these Churches besides you see what course they did take to keep that Ordinance clear and when they could not obtain what they desired of the Civil power yet they resolved to goe further which gave Mr. Prynne occasion to write against them 3. I doubt if we examine things well your selves are most to blame in that for which you separate Suppose you be in a Congregationall Church and have all things as you desire if there be any person there who falls scandalously that he deserves to be suspended from the Ordinance I pray tell me what method will you take I am sure the method is this If thy Brother offend tell him if he heare thee not take two if not tell the Church Matth. 18. What shall the Minister alone suspend him it may be he knows not of it when no Witnesse comes in against him No sure yea suppose a Minister saw a man drunke one of his Members and none saw him or knew it but himselfe he deales indeed with this Member but the man denyeth it he said he was not the Minister is sure he was drunke but wants witnesse the man comes to the Supper denying the thing though the Minister had wished him privately to forbeare shall the Minister now debarre him No sure the text laies another method the Minister must not be the sole Witnesse and Judge too For if Ministers may debarre upon their own heads without Witnesse they may soone doe strange things now have you done thus dealt with the Person or two of you gone to the Minister and told him you know such things by such persons which you can and will prove such things as if not repented of make him unfit for the Ordinance See Master Barro Hos cap. 5. v. 3. and hath the Minister yet received him if he hath you have discharged your duty and no guilt lyeth on you you may partake I doubt there are few have done-thus but if they be persons of quality especially then you pull in your hornes afraid to appeare but yet you will have the Minister to suspend him when no Witnesse comes in contrary to the rule or else you separate this blame will lye on your owne heads All your shift here is we have no power to deale with men we want an explicite
must not goe to them but similia ad pompam non ad pugnam The Analogie betweene a Commonwealth and the Church will not hold as I may touch afterward but this I am sure according to that practise that seven make a Church they may admit five or six whole Churches and a Pastor chosen by none of them may administer the Sacrament to them all at one time but doe we finde whole Corporations goe to the Mayor of another Corporation for Justice Mr. Philips Pastor of the Church in Water-town while Mr. Wilson Pastor of the Church of Boston was here in England went to Boston and administred the Lords Supper to that Church I was not then in the Country but I heard of it soone after when I went over with Mr. Wilson I know no sin in that act I thought to have given some Instances how frequent this was in the Primitive Churches Vind. Cath. Ã 192 ad 196 for one Minister to act officially beyond the people who elected him But Mr. Hudson a man far more able hath set down those examples which I would have given and many more to whom I referre the Reader Yea it was ordinary for the members of one Church to dwell one or two yeares nay six or seven yeares in another Towne and to partake of the Sacraments there as frequently as any of the members of that Church Indeed of late the Elders have not liked this to have them live so remote from the inspection of their owne officers and therefore have required such to joyne with the Church where they dwell this is good and orderly The letters also of Recommendation which the Churches make for the members when they come over hither requiring of the Churches here what communion counsell or comfort they shall need promising the performance of the like debt to others c. 2. Also I saw if a man were excommunicated out of one Church he stood excommunicated out of them all but if a man be disfranchised in one Corporation another Corporation may receive him and give him his freedome if they please this shews there is something more in a Church then in a Commonwealth 3. I saw they preached frequently in other Churches but that it should be onely as gifted brethren this is so harsh to conceive I pray what act doth the mayor of one Corporation do in another Corporation like this that carries authority in it and that here we must distinguish of the Mayor if he did this at home he did it as a Mayor authoritatively but in this Corporation he doth it as a private man Further they are Ministers or Pastors onely to those who elect and the fraternity only elect where there is no officer but there are divers in the severall Townes who are not joyned to the Churches so they did not elect then it seemes they preach as pastors onely to those who elected but to the rest of the Towne as gifted men consequently when God blesses their labours to the conversion of any of those they convert them instrumentally not as Ministers of Christ ordained separated to that worke but onely as gifted men yea they never convert any as Ministers unlesse some of those who elected them be close hypocrites and so they convert them but ordinarily those who choose are reputed godly already and they are Ministers only to them Hence rises that vile notion that some here have taken up That Pastors should preach onely to the edification of the Saints not to others 4. I have heard since I came away that when people have chosen an Officer and had no Officers to ordaine him that the Ministers of other Congregations have done it and the Confession of Church-discipline by the Synod of New England as also Mr. Hooker Survey part 2. pag. 59. allow as much 5. If one Congregation should prove pertinaciously scandalous and hereticall then though they doe not formally excommunicate such a Congregation yet all the Churches in the Country would proceed to the Non-communion of such a Church and for all the Churches to expresse so much to such a Church We do all renounce communion with you c. this amounts to a censure and is equivalent to excommunication containing in it all the effects that appear in excommunication and so I should reckon my selfe as much excommunicated Mr. Burroughs saith They may by a solemne act in the name of Christ Iren. 43. refuse any communion with them till they repent They may declare in the name of Christ that these erring Churches are not to be received into fellowship with any Churches of Christ nor to have communion one with another in the Ordinances of Christ all this solemnly in Christs name Onely some may be will say if this be an Ordinance of Christ bring out the texts to prove this and then we shall see if those texts wil not beare it out that the Churches united thus in this censure have not some authority over that particular Church If you goe to the old politie the Synedrion had power over particular Congregations if to light of nature that will carry it so that we must have texts to decide this Question For my part I must leave this to better heads Laying all together the Churches seeme to pactise as if there were such a Church Some things there are which a little trouble me in this notion that make me not come off so roundly in receiving it I question not the Church-catholicke-visible but I meane that it is one organicall body but as he said Veritas est temporis filia so I beleeve Time will cleave out this but so much I see as commands me to lean to that side I was thinking how dangerous this might prove If the major part of the catholick-visible-Catholick-visible-church should decline grow superstitious c. other Churches yet remaining pure if they did not subject to the major part what then but I saw inconveniences also on the other side if a Congregation be so entire that they can elect ordaine and are exempted from all power then Arians Photinians and all manner of Hereticks may elect ordaine c. who shall deny them and besides suppose the major part of Congregationall Churches should decline they would proceed to Non-communion of other particular Churches more pure and this is in a manner all one Further If so then if a Minister be removed from one Congregation to another or if his people should dye he now is but a private person and may nor baptise c. Hence also he must have another ordination when elected and as oft as he is elected I have not heard any there but here alleadge it I confesse I am not cleare in the practise I have searched to finde what Scripturall grounds there were for it but I find none that these Reverend Elders expresse some have alleadged in conference that Act. 13.3 Paul and Barnabas were ordained before and now they are ordained againe but I finde Mr.
liberty yet he so ordereth their liberty that our Ministers would be glad if they had their Churches governed as is the Church whereof himselfe together with Mr. Na. Rogers are officers these are Congregationall men De schismate I will not rehearse what I finde in Camero because he wrote before these times and will be reckoned for a Presbyterian foure grounds he gives for separation none of which I am sure our Separatists can alleadge 1. Grievous and intolerable persecution 2. When the Church is Heretical 3. When Idolatry is set up 4. When the Church is the seat of Antichrist I shall conclude with a speech of his Vt nihil aequè arguit ingenium spiritus Christi ac studium conservandae societatis unionis in quo charitas elucet sic etiam nullum est evidentius argumentum pravitatis ingenii humani unde inter carnis opera contentienes nominantur quà m tumultuandi rixandi studium Object But you have spoken against godly men all this while Ans Not against their godlinesse one word their schisme errors only I have opposed But I know not what new Divinity we have got up in these dayes that if they be godly men that drinke in errours or practise inordinately Oh take heed how you speake they are godly men there may be an unwise speaking when men shall onely fling out against persons but confute nothing but certainly godly men deserve reproofe as well as others I hope the being of a godly man doth not make that to be no sinne in him which is sinne in another but here is the subtilty of Satan and it was all the game he had to play in those times I must now saith he get into an Angel of light and I must worke among these godly professors This wâ—â— Satans plot in Cyprians time as he mentions in his booke De unitä Eccles yet when he saw his heathenish worship would not prosper but was cast down then hee plagued the Church with heresie and schisme if I can get some of those away I shall get other hollow ones to cleave to them and make a party If I now make not a division among them but that they joyne all with one shoulder to set up Christs Kingdome and thrust down mine it will go hard with my kingdome now therefore finde fault with the Ordination of Ministers it was Popish so separate from them plead conscience that is a tender peece strive for exact purity though it be beyond the rule as to visible Church-fellowship and thus he hath found out his wayes to damp all the worke of Reformation I shall say no more but this though some of these Separatists are godly men yet if godly men stand thus as now we do I beleeve God will not spare us though we be godly men but he will ere long bring such plagues upon the professing party in England as shall make their hearts ake For my part I look on England thus there have been choice servants of God in England who laboured under the Hierarchicall oppression many strong cryes have they made for the removall of that burden and that they might enjoy him in his owne Ordinances without the mixtures of mens inventions God hath given us in the answer of those prayers as to the removing of what offended and now saith God looke you to it yee Professors I give the power which never your Fathers saw into the hands of the Puritanicall * The old scoffe party let me now see how you will improve it for the advancement of my Church and glory but verily if we improve it no better then now we do we must look that God will not intrust us with this power long he doth not use to stay long before he visits his Churches but quickly deprive us of this liberty and Lord if thou doest thou shalt be just Having done with the Separatists I shall now take a short view of the agreements and differences that are with and between the Classical and Congregational Divines and then shall make bold to present an humble request to the Congregational Divines 1. Do the Classical-brethren stand for all the Ordinances of Christ as Praying Preaching Sacraments Discipline c so doe the Congregational-brethren 2. Do the Classical-brethren stand for Christs officers Pastors sach ers Ruling-elders Deacons allowing such and onely such o doe the Congregational-brethren They agree in worship and in officers 3. Do the Classical-brethren hold to the old doctrines of Faith Repentanee holding up the preaching of the Law in its method to prepare before faith to guide after faith so do the Congregational-brethren such as we looke upon as sound and esteem worth the regarding 4. Do the Classical-brethren hold the government of the Church to be Presbyterial so do the Congregational-men such as are the most acute Besides what Mr. Norton none of the lowest ranke hath asserted in his book which I quoted before I have heard him say That if the Congregational-government did make the government of the Church democratical he would give up the cause For my part I am but among the weakest of Gods Ministers but yet I thinke it were no hard matter to prove the government of the Church to be Aristocratical I enter not now into the debating of the question but this hath much stucke with me First there is government in the Church I meane an externall politie besides an internall government of the Spirit what ever our phantastical Spiritualists have dreamed of the Scripture is too plain against these Secondly then there are governours and governed this must needs be yeelded else government cannot be for governours there are none that are sound in their wits can deny if they owne the Scriptures Thirdly the affaires then of the Church must be so carried that these Relates may be kept distinct for that government which destroys these by making the Correlate i. the body governed to be governour and so there are none governed cannot possibly be a government standing so much with the light of nature There is no government if all rule Obj. But how can the government of the Church be Aristocraticall when as you carry things by the suffrage of the people Answ I should desire also to propound these questions First would you not if now Churches were constituting give the people this liberty that if any could bring in good testimony against a man who was to bee received into the Church that they should do it and if the thing be proved will not you refuse to admit such a one Secondly if it now come to casting out of a member will not you give liberty to any of the brethren who shall first asking you leave to speak in a sober grave way propound some question to the clearing of the case in hand before the people joyn with you in cutting off a member I say would not you give this liberty Thirdly will you excommunicate renitente ecclesiâ
any power invested with Authority but if they injoyne a thing to bee done and it be refused that Authority will reach further Authoritas cogit as is the kind of the Authority Civill or Ecclesiasticall Blessed Burroughs in answering to that which some would have Iren. p. 44. scil that a Synod may formally excommunicate because by excommunication they i.e. Hereticall Churches are put out of the Kingdome of Christ into the Kingdome of Satan and this will terrifie saith consider whether this be not done before and that with an authority of Christ by those former six things mentioned in the page before for Hereticall Congregations or persons are judged and declared in a solemn Ordinance by the Officers of Christ gathered together in his name to be such as have no right to any Church Ordinance to have no Communion with any of the Churches of Christ now if this judgement be right are not such persons or Congregations put out of the Kingdome of Christ and put under the power of Satan consequently Certainly this cannot be a ground of such difference shall Non and Ex make such a stir when Non is as bad as Ex I should judge my self I am sure to be in as bad a case by the one as the other though for my part this notion of catholike-visible-Catholike-visible-Church hath made me ready to yeeld to Synods juridicall power I could I say yeeld it and yet not differ from these reverend Divines if they follow home their non-communion close Now if you say what doth this helpe against Hereticall Congregations though you have proceeded to Non-communion they regard it not but still go on in their Heresies and leaven others to that they wil say what do they care for your excommunication if all the Hereticks in England were excommunicated they would not care but go on still Indeed our New England Divines will teach us a way how to helpe it viz. if a Synod hath declared against an Hereticall Congregation being pertinacious and so hath proceeded to non-communion they will call in the Civil power to help and so they have a way to help by their non-communion and this must be the help of them though they be excommunicated This Mr. Norton intimates Resp ad Apol. 148 Keyes 50 Iren. c. 4. Mr. Marshal relates that Zuinglius in a publick dispute did so stop the mouthes of the Anabaptist that they appearing to the Magistrates unreasonably obstinate were banish d the City Defen ag Tomb. 58. Ecclesiae appellant Magistratum in causis Ecclesiae non ad doctrinam declarandam vel disciplinam exequendam sed ad doctrinam a Cencilio declaratam vel disciplinam ab ecclesiâ applicatam sanctione Civili confirmandam The dury which Mr. Cotton sheweth to lye upon the Civill Magistrate inferres as much As also Mr. Burroughs And thus it was in New England when the Synod at which the Civill Power was present as to hear so to keep civill order had consuted and condemned the Errors and Heresies and so was broke up then a Generall Court was called which soon suppressed those Heresies and brought the Churches to peace again If the Civill power would do as much here we should soon see our Churches in better order What Civill Magistrates have done in this ease before I need not mention books are full It s true the Churches were when there was no Civill Power to defend them but oppose them but we can finde how many Heresies and Schismes they were then troubled with shall the Church be in no better case under a Christian Civill Power Nursing-Fathers then at that time 6 Doe the Classicall godly men looke upon their Congregations having visible Saints among them to be true visible Churches so doe the Congregationall men judge them also I gave instance before 7 Would then the Classical brethren have their members being such as have right to the Ordinance to partake with Congregational Churches in the Lords Supper to shew their communion certainly so they ought but why Congegationall men doe refuse godly men members of Classicall Churches not admitting them to the Lords Supper when they have desired it is very strange to me I wish our reverend Brethren would give us solid grounds for this practice for it gives offence and that justly a Preface to survey ch dis Mr. Hooker and b Iren. p. 266. Mr. Burroughs have both said they should be admitted Shal a Church be acknowledged to be a true Church where Doctrine and Worship is pure also this person a member of it a visible Saint it may be a real Saint and shall he be denyed communion 8 For Classes Pref. surv ch dis the Congregationall men say Consociation of Churches is not onely lawfull but in some cases necessary So Mr. Hooker Mr. Cotton speakes fully to this Keyes p. 54 55. weighty matters such as Election and ordination of Elders excommunication of an Elder or any person of publike note the translation of an Elder from one Church to another it is an holy Ordinance to proceed with common consultation and consent I suppose thus much might have beene obtained of the Classical-brethren that though in cases of weight as excommunication they would not have such an Ordinance carried on by one Minister but have the thing seriously examined first and debated in a Classis yet when the thing had beene concluded upon they would leave the execution of the sentence to the officer or officers of the Church where the case lyeth If so much might be obtained I should be very farre from opposing a Classis I would not willingly live without one I know of no other material point of difference as for the first subject of the power of the Keyes that is but a notion though its true much practise depends upon it yet I finde not that our Divines here would have the fraternity to be the first subject by their owning of Mr. Cotton his booke of the Keyes for Mr. Cotton makes a Church organized to bee the first subject and not the Fraternity as is apparent in divers places of that booke The summe is I wonder at our differnces well might that worthy Divine say in his letter to me from New England It s the wonderment of this side of the world that you that are godly and may agree yet will not surely the cause lyeth more in the Will then any thing else Give me leave therefore I pray to make my humble request to our Reverend Divines the Congregational-men that they would please to close in with the Classical brethren and not suffer these groundlesse differences to trouble the Churches any longer If you aske Why doe you make your request to us are we the cause why they are not bealed I cannot thinke the cause lyes onely in the Ministers nay I have heard long since there had been an agreement among the Ministers had not some others that live by divisions broken it but whether all Ministers are of the
same minde I know not nay I have observed the spirits of some Congregational-Ministers carried with more eagernesse against the Classical-brethren then è converso and I am sure if there be any blame among the Ministers it is charged most upon the Congregational-men whether justly or no it concernes you to cleare your selves Besides at this time the Civill power most smiles upon you and now it is a good time to shew you seeke the peace and flourishing of all Churches by joyning with your fellow-brethren and not to be content though your Interest be safe unlesse the whole may have comfort as well as your selves for you cannot but judge that there are more true visible Churches then those which are called Independent Churches and that there be others that are true Ministers besides the Independent Ministers why then should not the comfort of these Churches and Ministers be sought which cannot be unlesse your selves be pleased to declare against these errours and schismes of the times and fall in with these Ministers to carry on the worke of Christ together Let mee I beseech you present to your view a few things to be considered First the Classical men have bid very faire for peace and agreement with you heare their words Lond. in Vind. p. 120. 121. We doe here manifest our willingnesse te accommodate with you according to the word in a way of union and such of us as are Ministers to preach up and to practise a mutuall forbearance and toleration in all things that may consist with the sundamentals of Religion what need then any other Toleration with the power of godlinesse and with that peace which Christ hath established in his Church but to make ruptures in the body of Christ and to divide Church from Church c. there is no warrant for this out of the word The page before this they offer as much as this and speake so Christianly and ingenuously that it must needs move any Christian heart that loves the peace and prosperity of the Churches to meet them halfe way and not suffer any differences more to appeare As for that exception they make the ruptures of Churches I thinke it to be a very just exception that golden rule hath place here ut tibi sic aliis would any of us be content to have other Ministers take from us the best of our people that have chosen us before and owned us for their officers say what you please you are men and I know it would be a strong temptation when as for want of these also their hands are weakned in the carrying on of Reformation in their Churches If you take away the best who are the joy of a Minister take away the worst also If you live neare a place where there is no Minister and take in such Christians to you as the place affords and returne them when the place is furnished or if there be a Minister and but few Christians so that he cannot give the Lords Supper with comfort if he and his people will joyne with you they may none oppose this but when a godly Minister hath visible Saints sufficient in his Parish to have these taken from him is such a thing which I would not have offered to me therefore I would not offer the same to another I know where the pinch lyes on the Ministers part Our maintenance ariseth from the members c. but for this the State hath provided an answer and certainly it is a great mercy reforme you in the place where you live take none but Scriputre-visible-Saints to the Sacraments catechize and doe what you can to reforme the rest the State hath provided for your maintenance none shall keepe it from you as well as the word gives it you Gal. 6. Let him that is taught in the word communicate to him that teacheth in all good things Christ sent Paul not to baptize but to preach the Gospel 1 Cor. 1.17 preaching is the spending worke and the chiefe of this all the Parish are partakers I am ready to dispense the Seales to all visible Saints therefore I know no scruple why I should not receive from all since all receive from me O but your members will not be content with this I know not but your members may finde God in a godly reformed Classicall Church we see the differences are very small but suppose the worst let then your members remove into the Parishes where you live and this is no offence to any if they say It will something hinder their estate Mr. Burroughs wil tel them then they love their bodies better then their soules Expos Hos c. 2. v. 1.2 p. 225. if they looke upon things very much concerning their soul and will not buy them with some abatement of their profit could this have beene once enjoyed New England sufferers had not been there now Though Parishes are not Churches yet Ministers care must be bounded some where I presume you are willing to close so that you may not sin I beseech you first what sinne is it to let a godly Classicall man enjoy his owne members Secondly What sinne is it to admit a visible Saint and member of a Classical Church to communion with you Thirdly what sinne is it to declare against the errours and schismes of the times you see it is the thoughts of the New England Divines that through our too much connivence at these this inundation of errours is like to destroy all If these three be but yeelded I beleeve you may live and enjoy your liberty of conscience and no man will trouble you 2. A second consideration is this you see those who call for agreement they are no babes they are men holy learned excellently gifted and the arguments they give for their Classical forme of government are not slight but such as deserve strong heads to answer it may be my shallownesse but truly I cannot yet see some things they plead for to be clearly answered as their arguments for the Catholick-Church-visible their arguments for their Presbyterial Church from the Church of Jerusalem Corinth c. yet I have read the answers with a kinde of prejudice against the Classical way being before engaged in the Congregational-way and usually then men are apt to make a little serve the turne But I cannot yet be satisfied and that such a Church as is in this small village where I live should have equall power with the Church of Corinth and be exempted from all other power though which God forbid we should walke scandalously is a peece of Divinity that I cannot yet beleeve There seemes to be something in that which learned Mr. Hudson hinteth from 1 Cor. 14.34 Let your women keepe silence in the Churches Here are Churches in Corinth he doth not say Let women but Let your women that indeed which is a rule for the Churches of Corinth is a rule for all Churches those Congregations are called Churches yet one combined Church
let me examine what you say at present You will covenant together supposing your selves to be Saints first say you so are you Saints by calling how came you to be so what did God call you immediately No you must say many if not all of you who have any truth of grace by the preaching of the word what by those Ministers from whom you separate as no Ministers because of their Ordination hath the Lord so farre owned his despised members as to make them the instruments to bring you to be visible Saints fit to imbody or covenant c and are these now no Ministers are you the effect of their Ministeriall labours and they no Ministers Surely in this one thing you have overthrowne your selves but then you say you will ordaine him this I will consider in its owne place Then he shall baptize but since he did renounce his owne baptisme also who shall baptize him first you must have a Minister to do that to be sure he cannot doe it himselfe nor none of you for you are private persons to administer the Lords Supper before you be baptised is contrary to Scripture rules There was a report when I was in New England that a Carpenter re-baptised Mr. Williams In Iust Mar. time none received the Supper but such as were first baptised Apol. 2. Ius Divi. Apend p. 269. and then he did re-baptize the rest I do not stand to defend the thing whether it be true or no but it was like enough to be true and sutable to the other opinions and practises of that wilde generation Where are we now Fifthly that is very observable which the London Ministers have added in the defence of their Ordination That in this Church of England the corruptions which the Church of Rome would have introduced about Ordination of Ministers and other Ecclesiasticall affaires were withstood and opposed by the Kings of England Nor doe we read of any Ministers that were ordained by any Agents sent from Rome but onely some idle ceremonies of Confirmation or them that were ordained by the Pall and the Ring brought thence into England Thus far the London Ministers In the margent they have set downe the Authours that prove it Sixtly There might be another answer given by some who are good Historians which I confesse I am not wanting both time and such bookes so farre as I can goe I will That the Churches in England were at first rightly gathered and constituted it is not to be doubted Mart. 1. Vol. p. 237 last Edition the instruments of gathering being Apostles or Apostolicall men as is evident by Mr. Fox neither is it to be doubted but they did ordaine officers in the Churches for we read of Ministers and Bishops The land falling to the possession of the Saxons about the yeare 568. p. 147. the Story saith by them all the Clergy and the Christian Ministers of the Britains were then utterly driven out in so much that the Arch-bishops of London and Yorke went into Wales thus long then it seemes the Ministers of England had no ordination from Rome P. 149. this appeares also by Austine who came into England in the yeare five hundred ninety eight he about the yeare six hundred P. 153. assembled the Bishops and Doctors of Britaine so that still here were Ministers but where their abode was the story sets not downe but supposed to be towards Wales and charged them to preach the Gospel to the English-men and also that they should among themselves reform certain rites in their Church so that still here were Ministers and Churches specially for keeping of Easter-tide baptizing after the manner of Rome c. to which the Scots and Britaines would not agree this shews they did not depend upon Rome Afterward there was another Synod gathered where seven Bishops of Britaine were present and though we finde a great battell fought presently after where the Britains were overcome yet the Story doth not mention that the Ministers were all slaine there Now the thing I aime at is this that since there were so many Ministers and Bishops in England who had their ordination by succesfion from those Apostolical men and not from Rome and wee finde so many when Austine came why may we not suppose that these might againe preach the Gospel to the English-men though at first they were opposite when they had smarted for their folly and why may we not suppose they might returne into England againe especially into those parts neare Wales also those who were driven out as the Story saith they were suppose into some other parts might not they returne into England also must we take the words of the Story All the Clergy and Christian Ministers were driven out strictly so as none at all were left though latent c those who are good Historians may helpe here and it would be some answer to that objection of our ordination coming from Rome though unto me the objection is very feeble if this answer cannot be made out As for the Churches of England being rightly at first gathered Way of Ch. in N. E. Ch. 7. p. 111. as above mentioned Mr. Cotton yeelds it so as he saith That all the work now is not to make them Churches which were none before but to reduce and restore them to their primitive Institution c. To that part of the Objection They were ordained by Bishops I pray what doe you thinke of Master Bradford and the rest of those holy Ministers and Martyrs that were ordained by the Bishops in those dayes Cranmer Ridley Hooper c was he an Anti-christian Minister and all those Ministers who were then ordained though now they were scarce got out of the Popish Ceremonies c. the holy Martyrs then did never offer to separate from Mr. Bradford and the rest nor call them Antichristian Ministers I pray how many such Bradfords have you among you Not all the Separatists in England can afford such a one Christ cals him his faithfull Minister but you say Mr. Bradford is none cursed be that doctrine Now if those Ministers were true Ministers though they had an Episcopall Ordination then so are ours notwithstanding their Ordination by Bishops It is vaine to say those Bishops were godly men so were ot ours for it is a bold assertion to say that none of the Bishops since have been godly men no doubt there are divers in Heaven And besides it is absurd to thinke that the truth and efficacy of an Ordinance depends upon the truth of Grace in him who doth administer it as for Ceremonies if you search they were not cleare then no more then our Bishops were It is a silly shift to say They walked according to their light I hope there was the same rule to judge of the truth of Ministers then that is now it was not their light which made them true Ministers but the rule But the truth of their Ministry was never