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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
power_n	church_n	minister_n	ordination_n	2,890	5	10.2282	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A56736	An answer to Vox cleri, &c. examining the reasons against making any alterations and abatements, in order to a comprehension and shewing the expediency thereof.	Payne, William, 1650-1696.	1690 (1690)	Wing P896; ESTC R36661	22,857	39

agree better with some Constitutions than more substantial food and better Instructions Let the Dissenters crave as long as they will I hope the Church can deny as stifly as they crave unreasonably And I am perfectly of our Author's mind though he had not Dr. Beveridge's Authority for it That to alter the Episcopal Government to take the Power of Ordination from Bishops and place it in the hands of Prsbyters to take away a well ordered Liturgy and bring in extemporary Prayers for publick worship to give every Minister a Jurisdiction and Power of Excommunication and many other things without which some grave Dissenters will not be comprehended is more than the Learned Doctor or any Doctor in England will grant or desire to be granted to them But surely our grave Author knows that the best and wisest if not the gravest Dissenters who are for a National Church whose Interest is most considerable and whose Credit has done the most to keep up Non-conformity that these will be comprehended with something less than what he speaks of and I doe not doubt but the bringing in of those into the Communion of the Church would tend greatly to strengthen its Interest and the Interest of the whole Protestant Religion and to break that lamentable Schism and Separation which weakens both and gives our Popish Adversaries the greatest Advantage against us and which I hope they and we are both weary of If there are some Dissenters so wild that they can never be folded nor brought into any settled Flock or Communion though I would not have them hunted and run down like wild Beasts and therefore I am not altogether so much against the Toleration as our Author is yet I think it would have done more good had the Comprehension took place before it that so the Church might have gathered first before the Separation and not have been left to glean after that has made its full harvest But our Author I perceive is as much afraid at one time that the Dissenters should come in as he is at another that they would not And what says he p. 10. if some leading Presbyterians be by our Alterations let into the Church and advanced to such Preferments as they hope for what security have we that they will not promote Divisions in the Church more dangerous than the Schism they made by Separation from us A secret Enemy within the walls of a well fortified City is more dangerous than an open Foe in the Field How then is this consistent not onely with our Author's Opinion but most serious Protestation in another place p. 26. I do here protest that were it not that the Dissenters have given us an Assurance that though these and many other Alterations should be made it would give them no satisfaction nor bring them into our Communion I would use all the Interest I have for such Alterations and for that end also part with many of the Ceremonies I should think there were a contradiction in these two places and that they would sall out were they not some Pages from one another but surely all things are not right in our Author's Head who has two such different thoughts at the same time but perhaps 't is but a mere struggle between the flesh and the spirit if they should be let in and get Preferments they might keep him and others out and if they would come in the good of it is so visible upon many accounts that a man's reason cannot but desire it and promote it so that there is a natural tenderness and moderation on one side of his head which I suppose is the softest towards Dissenters but on the other side there is a most stiff hatred and aversion to them but which of these shall take place when there is occasion must depend very much upon the Influence of the Moon and the Aspect of the Planets I consess I am not for letting in Enemies into the Church but surely by coming in they become Friends and cease to be Enemies for then they owne the Churches Communion and submit to its Authority and instead of standing out they come in and joyn with it now if any will do this I know no Church is so well fortified as to keep them out nor is there any way to distinguish such secret enemies from its secret friends but 't is a Secret some men have to find out distinctions and make differences between those of the same Communion which is very pernicious and mischievous whoever comes up to the Churches terms of Communion and to full Conformity with it are by no means to be counted secret enemies when if this does not shew them to be open friends every man may as well be suspected to be a secret enemy But if these Dissenters when they are taken into the bosom of the Church should like treacherous Vipers endeavour to sting their Mother or gnaw through her Bowels and attempt all they can to doe mischief to her how shall they be able to effect this and what way shall they accomplish it Will they set up Conventicles in their own Parishes and draw away people from the Communion of the Church of which themselves are Ministers or will they preach or write against those Ceremonies or other things to which they have publickly conformed it would be strange if they should doe this but perhaps they may doe it another way They may be chosen Convocation-men and so have opportunity to oppose and confront the Bishops and though they should pretend great reverence for the Episcopal Order and Authority yet may slight and contemn it as much as open Fanaticks when it does not suit with their humour and like bug Diotrephes love to have the preheminence above it Now if I find they doe this and make a dangerous division in the Church by this means I shall think 'em a sort of Rebellious Presbyters that deserve to be turned out of the Church not as secret but open enemies to the Bishops and that they have forgot a passage or two in Ignatius's Epistles and therefore I shall be very much tempted to be of our Author's mind to have those read hereafter in our Churches for the edisication and reproof of such assuming Presbyters p. 26. I know but one Objection more that can be picked up out of your Author's fardle of important reasons against any Alterations for they lye there like small wares in a Pedler's pack neither sorted nor parcelled but confusedly jumbled together as I suppose they lye in his head but the onely remaining Objection that I can find and I am sure I have done him justice and given full strength to any thing that looked like a reason p. 6. is this That by making Alterations the Church will run the hazard of offending a greater number of more considerable persons than they are like to gratisie thereby And he gives it in as objected formerly against the Bill for Comprehension

p. 11. That as some might come in so others that were in our Communion might take offence by the Alterations and detest it and seeing our frequent changes in some things they might suppose that there is nothing certain among us and from the many disputes about our Liturgy proceed to question our Articles and at last fall off to the Church of Rome which they saw more constant to their Principles Now they must have a very mean opinion of the Churches Prudence and give very little deference to her Authority that shall be offended at her making such Alterations in things that she always declared are in their own nature indifferent and alterable and which she has reserved to her self a power to alter according to the exigency of times and occasions and upon such prudential reasons as she shall think fit of which she is alone the most proper Judge for as our Authour says The People ought not to prescribe to the Church in such things but the Church to them They must therefore be no very dutifull and obedient Sons of the Church who shall not be satisfied with such Alterations as she shall think fit to make for the ends of peace and concord and the allaying those heats and divisions that are among us They must have a very wrong and superstitious opinion of the outward Rites and Ceremonies and Circumstantials of Religion who lay so much weight and stress upon them as to think that there is any great matter in them besides their subserviency to outward order and decency or that they are so necessary to those that the Divine Worship may not be performed as acceptably and reverently without some of them as with them It is to be feared that such weak persons have not been sufficiently instructed in the nature of things Indifferent when they are so zealous for those above the weightier matters of Peace and Charity to which they ought always to give way If some zealous or designing men have drawn ignorant and well meaning persons into a greater opinion and admiration of themselves by ceremonious formalities and overdoings by unprescribed bowings and cringes by prostrations at the Eucharist and the like inventions of their own they have used the same ways that other Fanaticks have done to fill up their Congregations with gathering out of other Churches by shews of greater piety and devotion and have hereby broken the settled orders of the Church and opened a gap for all the follies of an indiscreet zeal and forward superstition whereby some pious but not wise men have in all ages brought innumerable fopperies and singularities into the Church to the great mischief of Religion But surely a Church that thinks it not necessary to bring men to a Religion by any such superstitious devices but by more true and rational methods of a sober and discreet Piety and needs not to make use of any such tricks and pious frauds to impose upon the folly and weakness of its Votaries nor has any paltry and by ends to be served by such Religious Cheats should put a timely stop to all such ceremonial excesses and honestly teach all its Members that Religion lies not in any such shews or forms of Godliness but in sober and manly devotion and in a vertuous and good life Now when men have such a true notion of Religion which the Church ought always to give them and to correct all mistakes to the contrary there will be no great danger that they should be much offended at the loss or alteration of a few Rites or Ceremonies which are no more of the Essence of Religion than our Cloaths are of the Essence of a Man who so long as he is decently habited according to the custom of the Countrey he may leave it to the Governours thereof to change the mode as they think fit But above all folks commend me to those in our Communion who our Author tells us may take such offence at our Alterations as to desert us and fall off to the Church of Rome p. 11. These do well understand and have been well instructed in the Religion of the Church of England who can make no difference between baptizing with the Cross as a signal of Christianity and adoring it as an object of worship between kneeling at the Sacrament and worshipping the Host but however this is a terrible danger if by bringing some ost from Fanaticism we shall be likely to make others Papists which is ten times worse let us therefore see what reason our Author may have to fear this Why seeing our frequent changes in some things they may suppose that there is nothing certain among us and from the many disputes about our Liturgy proceed to question our Articles and at last fall off to the Church of Rome which they saw more constant to their Principles If they are for such a constant Church as shall never make any Alterations then indeed they must be for an Infallible one and none bids at that but the Church of Rome but yet still she has made very often great changes and alterations in her Liturgies and Ceremonies and often corrected and reformed her Breviaries and Missals so that if this shall shake and startle a man and by seeing so many alterations about those things in their Church he shall suppose there is nothing more certain in that than in ours I hope he will quickly come back again like a fool as he went He must be a Member of no Church i' th' world nor ever could have been since the beginning of Christianity who will desert and leave it for this reason because it has made frequent Alterations in its Liturgy and Ceremonies and if a man will be so fickle and sceptical as by seeing frequent changes in such things to suppose there is nothing certain among us and from some disputes about Liturgies question the Articles of a Church and at last fall to what is more constant in its Principles he must e'en fall off from all Churches and from all Religion and for the same reason from all living under Laws and Government for there are disputes and alterations about those and from eating and drinking too for all men are not agreed in the same meat and drink or way of dressing it nor have always thought fit to stick to one way of Brewing or Cookery Thus I have fairly examined our Author's Arguments against making Alterations and where there was any seeming weight in them I have fully considered it where they were weak and ridiculous I have made bold to expose them for the Book was put out and fell into my hands in a time of merryment and I was very curious to see what some folks could say for themselves I assure him had he or his Neighbours in the Countrey shewed any good reasons why they are so stiff against Alterations that could have convinced me that they were prejudicial to Religion or disserviceable to the Church I would have sent