whether there would be such a Reformation as their Consciences could rest satisfied withal if so they resolved to accept those Dignities but when they perceived things were to be setled in statu quo in the condition they are now they waved those places and preferments Might but Bishop Ushers Reduction have been admitted in the Government and the Ceremonies removed or but his Majesties Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs been made a Law they would have thankfully imbraced the offers that were then made them Quest What needs the removal of the Ceremonies be so much as desired of our Governors Are they not like those of a Master of a Family to his Children and Servants to come into the Parlour or Hall at such an hour to Prayer in the Family and to kneel there and he uncovered during Family-Prayers D. p. 106 107. Answ The Nonconforming-Ministers are very willing to come to the Church at the hours appointed by Law and there to stand or kneel and be bare or uncovered at the time of Prayers if such conformity may serve the turn But divers look upon the Ceremonies injoyned in the Liturgy as of another nature than those above-mentioned relating to Peace Order and Decency only namely as Rites of a Mystical or Sacramental signification and therefore have been rejected together with Popery at first by many of the Reformed Churches beyond the Seas who yet we doubt not worship God decently and orderly and in the beauty of Holiness Quest Are the Nonconformists such a cross-grain'd Generation that it is the only way to bring them to Conformity for the Magistrate to forbid the use of the Ceremonies D. Answ I wish if his Majesty pleased tryal might be made in forbidding the Cross and Surplice the reading the Lessons out of the Apocrypha and the Old Translation of the Psalms oâ— David Quest Do not the Nonconformists hold that nothing may be done in the Worship of God but what is in joyned by him in his Word Deb. p. 101. edit 1. Answ They generally hold that nothing must be done as a part of Gods Worship nor as properly a medium cultus but they hold that the determination of meet circumstances necessary in genere is not necessary to be set down in the Word Vid. Mr. Baxt. his disputat about Ch. Governm and the Proposals of the Presbyterians to his Majesty Quest Do the Nonconformists Ministers hold the Church of England no true Church and the Ministers of it if Conformists no true Ministers and do they dislwade people from frequenting the Churches and hearing their Ministers setled in them Answ The Presbyterians have justified the calling of Ministers in the Church of England in their Jus Divinum Ministerii Anglicani they â—efuse not to communicate with the Publick Assemblies divers that sometimes keep private Meetings for Religious Exercises they and their Auditors go to Church also and joyn therein in praing and hearing and receiving the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper Quest Do the nonconformists-Nonconformists-Ministers hold all superiority of one Presbyter above another Antichristian Answ As to the Bishops of the Church of England invested with all that Power which they have and usually exercise in the Church of England without the joynt-advice and consent of the Presbytery we look upon them not as Jure Divino strictly but as his Majesties Deputies and Commissioners in Ecclesiasticall Affairs and since his Majesty is pleased to make them Lords can give them their Title and serve God and the Church under them Quest Is the Assembly in their Directory for Worship so much out in advising and directing Ministers to preach in the evidence and demonstration of the Spirit and of Power and are those Ministers guilty of error and presumption now-a-dayes who make this a petition in Prayer before their Sermons that they may be enabled so to preach See Deb. p. 5. edit 1. Answ The sense of the Author of the Debate and divers other Interpreter and the sense in which the Assembly and many other pious and learned Preachers use this Scripture 1 Cor 2.4 need not necessarily to exclude one the other Take Bishop Hall's Paraphrase upon the place My speech both in my private Exhortation and iâ— my publicly Preachings was not curiously plausible as if I would win with words of humane Eloquent and Wit but in plain and powerful expressions 〈◊〉 God's Spirit speaking in me and working in you 〈◊〉 me And the pious prudent and learned Bishop of Chester in his Ecclesiastes directing what kind of phrase a Minister must use in his preaching saith it must be affectionate and cordial 〈◊〉 proceeding from the heart and an experimental atquaintance with those Truths which we deliver adds this it to speak in the demonstration of thâ— Spirit and of Power Besides the learned Dâ— Hammond tells us in his Comment on the New Testament that divers places in the Old-Testament are said to be fulfilled in the New bâ— way of Accommodation And why may not this Scripture be used by Ministers by way of Accommodation also Do not the Sons of the Church pray for the Clergy of England as for God's own Tribe the Tribe of Levi Besides if you seriously consider the Context you may see cause not wholly to reject the other interpretation namely that of Mr. Dixon in loc Demonstrativâ— nibus Scriptura solida Veritatis quibus Spiritâ— potenter se exerebat operabatur in vestris animis Quest Do the Nonconforming-Ministers pre-end now to pray by the Spirit as if the Holy-Ghost should immediatly infuse method matter and words whilst they pray Answ Mr. Hollingworth sometime a prime Presbyterian in Lancashire shall answer for them They do not hold that they ought not to take bought before-hand what they should pray expecting that the Holy-Ghost should immediately inspire them with method matter and words of Prayer who ever said it was not they that prayed but the Holy-Ghost praying in them And yet in this duty as well as in others the Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God which is a Spirit of Grace and Supplication and because we know not what to ask he helpeth our infirmities and we may be said to pray in the Spirit not onely because the holy Spirit doth stir up warm and enlarge our affections in prayer but be brings oft times to our remembrance the savory and suit able phrases and passages of holy Writ especially the promises which are most pertinent to our purpose Why should any imagine that the evil spirit can have power to suggest evil thoughts or imaginations into us to distract and hinder us when we are praying and not the good and holy Spirit should suggest good thoughts and desires and that too in his own language I mean in Scripture-phrase and expressions bringing them at such a time to our remembrance Yea the Holy-Ghost saith that pious person restrains the petulancy and extravagancy of wit great swelling words of vanity vain bablings idle repetitions c. and he
Care of all the Churches who professeth of himself I became all things to all men that by any means I might win some Or else that was in this Godly Archbishop Usher of whom 't is recorded in his Life That though he conformed himself yet he desired that his Majesty would not impose the English Ceremonies on the Irish Church saying If I had all mens Consciences in my keeping I could in these disputable Cases give Laws unto them as well as my self But 't is one thing what I can do and another thing what other men must do Since the Ceremonies be things saith our Church in their own nature indifferent and yet by some held superstitious and unlawful it seemeth to fall within the Apostles Rule which is That the strong do descend and yeild to the weaker if we will hearken to the Counsel of the Lord Chancellor Bacon in his Considerations touching the Church of England Quest. Doth the holy Scripture caution us against grieving our Brethren as well as against offending of them so as to occasion them to stumble and fall into sin Answ 'T is our duty not onely to prevent out Brothers fall but his fears and to keep his heart from sinking as well as his feet from falling To the weak became I as weak that I might gain the weak I am made all things to all men that I might by all means save some 1 Cor. 9.22 'T is the part of a good Shepherd to carry the Lambs in his Arms and gently to lead the Ewes that are great with young and of Nursing Fathers and Mothers to be tender-hearted and tender-handed towards Babes towards weak and young Children If it be said We must not grieve or vex the Magistrate I answer 'T is true we must not but if the Magistrate please to remove the Law where there 's no Law there 's no Disobedience and then the Offence ceaseth And where there 's no Offence committed by the Inferiour there should be no Offence taken by the Superiour or when there is none given there should be none taken The things are alterable in themselves The Magistrate is a Minister of God for good and if he shall please to remove every stumbling-stone and grieving-thorn out of the way to the Church and out of the way of Obedience How shall God and his people bless him All the power that the Church hath it is to edification and not to destruction and there 's a far greater necessity of Unity than of Uniformity 'T is a great deal better not to make Canons than to make such as we fore-see will be broken by thousands and that under a pretence of Conscience and who are serious sober civil people in their Lives and Conversations Quest What may be thought the readiest way to make the Bishops work easie and his person to be beloved Answ 'T is I think to use Moderation to rule with Love and not with Rigor and that notwithstanding some young Counsellors some Hot-spurs may advise them as of old the young men did Rehoboam when their Brethren come to them and say Your Fore-fathers or your Predecessors divers of them made our Yoke grievous Now therefore make ye we pray you the grievous Service of your Fore-fathers and their heavy Yoke which they put upon us lighter and we will serve you To say to them Our little Finger shall be heavier than our Fore-fathers Loyns and now whereas they did lade you with a heavy Yoke we will adde to your Yoke Our Fore-fathers chastised you with Whips but we will chastise you with Scorpions The deeper you lay the Foundation in Humility and the broader in Charity the higher you may probably build your House and it may likewise stand the longer A well-grounded Jus Humanum may stand longer than a high-built pretended Jus Divinum And Reason shews saith one that Episcopacy will stand more firm in conjunction with Presbytery than by it self alone There be two circumstances saith my Lord Chancellor Bacon wherein I could never be satisfied the one the sole exercise of their Authority the other the deputation of their Authority For the first he saith surely I do suppose and I think upon good ground that ab initio non fuit ita And that the Deans and Chapters were Counsels about the Seas and Chairs of Bishops at the first and were unto them a Presbytery or Consistory And again we see that the Bishop of Rome Fas est ab hoste doceri and no question in that Church the first Institutions were excellent performeth all Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in Consistory with advice that is of the Cardinals or Parish-Priests of Rome And hereof again saith he we see divers shadows yet remaining as that the Dean and Chapter proformâ chooseth the Bishop which is the highest point of Jurisdiction Again The same Author tells us that the Bishop is a Judge and of a high nature Whence cometh it that he should depute considering that all trust and confidence is personal and inherent and cannot or ought not to be transposed surely in this again ab initio non fuitita But it is probable that Bishops when they gave themselves too much to the glory of the World and became Grandees in Kingdoms and great Counsellors to Princes then did they leave their proper Jurisdiction as things of too inferior a nature for their greatness And then after the similitude and immitation of Kings and Counts-Palatine they would have their Chancellors and Judges Quest Is the Author of the Fr. Debate so extraordinary zealous as he pretends for the honour of our Governours and Government in the State Answ See pag. 50 51. of the Continuation where he doth insinuate or more plainly inform the Nation that not only Nonconformists keep Conventicles but that Mass is said and that the Papists take the same liberty in the exercise of their Religion as the Nonconformists do in theirs And that little or no notice is taken of any Drunkards Sweaters or Blasphemers If he had pleased 't is to be thought he might have found great sins amongst the Clergy little taken notice of and not much punished in Ecclesiastical Courts If he had done like Shem and Japhet to have rather endeavoured to cover his nakedness he might have been blessed by them or else if he will needs have his jerks at Nonconformists though it light partly on his and our Superiors in the State to have gone on and have whipped the Buyers and Sellers in out of the Temple also Quest Do the Nonconformists teach the people railing language particularly to call all they like not Antichristian and Babylonish Vid. Contin p. 155 266 c. Answ Time was when Reverend and Renowned Mr. Vines that lost the Mastership of Pembroke-Hall in Cambridge because he would not subscribe the Engagement as did also Dr. Spurstow the Master of Katherine-Hall and Mr. Young of Jesus-Colledge for the same cause preaching before the Parliament said Henceforward he should take Antichrist for
remember saith the same judicious Author that the ancient and true Bonds of Unity are One Faith one Baptism and not One Ceremony one Policy And endeavour to comprehend that saying Differentia Rituum commendat unitatem Doctrinae Christs Coat was indeed without Seam yet the Churches Garment was of divers Colours The Presbyterian and Congregational Nonconformists do profess to agree in the main Doctrine with the Church of England contained in her Articles of Religion so as fully to embrace and constantly to adhere unto what is purely Doctrinal in them Besides the Presbyterians do not separate from the Church so as to set up Church against Church Altar against Altar but being thrust out of the Church themselves and the number of men and women dissatisfied about either some passages or Ceremonies in the Lyturgy so that they dare not receive the Sacrament in the way required in the publick Assemblies being very great they take occasion to meet for Religious Exercises in private for a time onely till a door be opened for them in the Church by the removal of some supsosed or real Corruptions in the publick Worship And the reason why some whilst they continue in the City do not frequent the Publick Assemblies may be this Because they are here by connivance onely and dare not be seen openly to out-face a Law But when they are in the Countrey they joyn with the Congregation where they reside protempore to shew their Union with the Church and Conformity to the Laws Nor are they therefore to be judged Schismaticks because they still hold internal Communion with all Christians and so with the Church of England with whom in some things they conceive they cannot communicate externally And there is not saith a Learned Bishop so great Conformity to be expected in Ceremonies as in the Essentials of Sacraments The Separation of the N.C. from the Ch. of Engl. is not total nor perpetual and a man may remove from his Fathers House it being infected with a purpose to come thither when all is clear and well again And their desire and prayer is still That they that went forth of their Churches weeping yet bearing good Seed viz. the Doctrine of Faith Repentance and Obedience to God and his Vicegerent may come again rejoycing bringing their Sheaves that is their Congregations with them Quest But is not this partial and occasionaâ— withdrawing of some Non-conforming Ministers and people from the publick Legal Assemblies justly charged with Schism Answ Hear what a Romish Doctor saith which is cited by Bishop Bramhal in his Treatise of Schism pag. 7 8. When there is a mutual division of two parts or Members of the Mystical Body of the Church one from the other yet both retaining Communion with the Universal Church which for the most part springs from some doubtful Opinion or less necessary part of Divine Worship quam cunque partem amplexus fueris Schismaticus non audies quippe quod Universa Ecclesia neutiam damnarit what side soever you take you are not a Schismatick c. Quest. Sith that divers of the Non-conforming Ministers had no Ordination but by theiâ— Brethren the Presbyters Can they be esteemed lawful Ministers Is such Ordination valid without Re-Ordination by the Bishops Answ Ordination by Presbyters without Bishops was adjudged valid by our former Bishops witness the Case of three Scottish Bishops consecrated in England in King James his dayes Take the History of it from Archbishop Spotsâ—ood who relateth the matter and manner of it â—hus A Question saith he was moved by Doctor Andrews Bishop of Ely touching the Consecration â—f the Scottish Bishops who as he said must first be â—rdained Presbyters at having received no Ordinaâ—ion by a Bishop the Archbishop of Canterbury Doctor Bancroft who was by said That thereof â—here was no necessity seeing where Bishops could not â—e had the Ordination of or by Presbyters must be esteemed lawful This applauded to by the other Bishops Ely acquiesc'd and at the day and place appointed the three Bishops were consecrated A. Spots Hist Book 7. p. 514. Dr. Field in his Book of the Church holds the Ministers lawful Ministers in the Transmarine Churches though ordained without Bishops and Dr. Thorndike in his Treatise relating to the Primitive Government of Churches hath so much charity as not to unchurch the Reformed Churches beyond the Seas who have no Bishops pag. 202. The pious learned and famous Mr. Gataker never had any Episcopal Ordination but was ordained by Dr. Stern Suffragan of Colchester The Religious and Renowned Archbishop Usher in his Reduction set forth by Dean Barnard was of the Judgement that the Chor-Episcopi or Rural Deans might lawfully Ordain And this his Judgement was attested by Doctor Holsworth yea and very probably too by Bishop Brownrig and others of the Sub-Committee for Ecclesiastical Affairs in the beginning of the Long Parliament The Attestation is as followeth We are of the Judgment that the form of Government here proposed is not in any point repugnant to the Scripture and that the Suffragans mentioned in the second Proposition may lawfully use both the power of Jurisdiction and Ordination according to the Word of God and the Practice of the Ancient Church Quest But what great matter is it what the Modern Bishops or Doctors do or say in this Affair Is it not sufficiently known that Aerius is reputed an Heretick for this Tenet viz. For denying a superiority of Bishops above Presbyters And was not Ordination by Presbyters condemned by a Councel of the Ancient Church Answ Aerius is counted an Heretick for other Opinions also by Epiphanius for which our Brethren that Conform will acquit him of Heresie And the Reverend Learned and Laborious Dr. Stillingfleet hath given several Reasons why those Ordinations might be lawfully made void by the Councel in case they had been performed by a Bishop as because in another Bishops Diocess because sine Titulo c. Quest If the Presbyterians can be freed from Schism yet what can be said to clear them from the sin of Sacriledge either as Principals or Accessories Did not the Assembly put out Annotations on the Bible in those times and for fear of displeasing their Masters never meddle with condemning of Sacriledge Answ I answer The Notes commonly called the Assemblies Notes came out before the Assembly was convened and was none of their Act And this is taken notice of by some very considerable Persons in their Preface to the Reader before the Morning-Exercises printed 1659. â—n these words We have not without some regret â—bserved that the Large English Annotations in â—hich but some few onely of the late Assembly togeâ—her with some others had an hand are generally scribed unto the whole Assembly and usually carry â—â—e Name of the Assemblies Annotations as if done â—y the joynt Advice of that Grave and Learned Conâ—ention Yet further as to the places mentionâ—d in the Debate they were commented upon by â—e persons here mentioned That
In the Presbyterians Address to his Majesty they assert the lawfulness of Episcopacy and of a Liturgy The mention of the names of many Bishops both in the beginning of Reformation and of later times are precious to them like an Oyntment poured forth the memory of them is and shall be in Benedictione And there have been never any so bad since as to make soâ—er persons to condemn all There are still of the Hierarchy men of that piety learning temperance meekness and moderation that we despair not if some Boutefeau's and Incendiaries would cease blowing the coals might be the happy Instruments to quench the Fire and be like the good Shepherds who bring home their Sheep when gone astray in their very bosoms and with their Benedictions There are also amongst Dissenters many sons of peace who love not to fish in troubled waters or to blow the coals great friends to Unity Peace and Order and no enemies to Bishops who either keep no Private-Meetings or therein disswade not the people from frequenting the Publick-Assemblies or hearing their Ministers or Liturgy Quest Have not they that took the Covenant â—bjured all Episcopacy Answ It was declared in the Assembly before the Covenant was taken that the Covenant did not bind against a Primitive-Episcopacy and at the time of taking the Covenant this was frequently declared in private conference and some did it from the Press and Pulpit However the Covenant obliges men to act only in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they may it doth not 〈◊〉 men to be seditious in the State or schismatical in the Church tâ— bring about any alteration or reformation of Government We are far from thinking say the Presbyterians in their Paper of Proposals to his Majesty speaking of the Covenant that it obligeth us to any evil or to go beyond our places and callings to do good much less to resist Authority tâ— which it doth oblige us p. 13. We ought not to use violent tumultuous seditious or any unlawful mean to bring about a Reformation Notwithstanding the Covenant we acknowledge it belongs to his Majesty with the advice of the Parliament to settle and regulate the Church Government And it may be remembred that Presbyterian Parliament voted his Majesties Concessions a ground of Peace although he never consented to the extirpation oâ— Episcopal-Government Quest. Were the Presbyterians bound by the Covenant to divest his Majesty of his supremacâ— in Ecclesiastical Affairs See Debate pag. 168 4. Ed. Answ An Oath for confirmation ought to be an end of all strife They have since generally taken the Oaths of Supremacy and Alleagiance not above six that I hear of refused it in all Scotland And on the other side 't is not unknown to some that a very learned and great Clerk a Dignitary of this Church of no small note was hardly perswaded to take down this bitter Pill according to his gust though it was double gilt with a Prebend of 200 l. per annum His Majesties Commissioner presides to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland They willingly and heartily give unto the Kings Majesty the chief Government of all Estates of this Realm whether they be Ecclesiastical or Civil The Covenant binding men to reform according to the Word of God could not reasonably or charitably be construed ro take away that Prerogative which we see to have been given always to godly Princes in holy Scriptures by God himself i. e That they should rule all Estates and Degrees committed to their charge by God whether they be Ecclesiastical or Temporal and restrain with the Civil Sword the stubborn and evil Doers Yea they are so far from wasting or clipping this his Majesties Royal Prerogative that they would not be offended if the Statute of King Edward the Sixth was again revived whereby all Citations in the Courts Spiritual should issue out in the Kings Name and be sealed with his Seal And if it should once please his Majesty it would not displease them no though they themselves were admitted into the Church to have a Vicar General in Spiritualibus Quest Are the high Sons of the Church advanced so many degrees as is pretended above the poor Nonconformists in their Charity See Debate p. 20. Ed. 1. Answ There is just cause to fear that amongst them some there are who have a greater Charity for the Church of Rome than for the Presbyterians that is for them that differ from the Church of England in Substantials in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government that for them who differ from them onely or chiefly in Circumstantials in lesser and lighter matters not of the Foundation of Religion but belonging onely to the Superstructure or if you please at best to the adorning of it For my own part and for all the Nonconforming-Ministers I may say for ought I know That we would sooner give the Right Hand of Fellowship to the highest and most rigid Father or Son of the Church of England than joyn hands with Rome That some of our Brethren of the other side have not a heart so inlarged with Charity to all men and particularly to Dissenters as is pretended and boasted may be evinced by the Treatise under consideration which may seem to be designed to render their Brethren and Ministers of the Gospel too ridiculous if not odious I heard no mean man say That the design was To put the Beasts Skin upon us and then to cry Ha-loo Ha-loo I must needs confess it appears to me at least very uncivil if not uncharitable also to go about to pluck off the Healing and Soveraign Playster which his Majesties Royal Hands with the Advice of his Parliament a whole Colledge of Physitians in the Act of Indempnity had laid on the bleeding Wounds which the late War had made amongst us I might add also that there are some passages so full of Lightness and Drollery that they might better become some Ecclesiastical Hudibras or a Ben-Johnson a Doctor of the Stage than a Rabbi or a grave Doctor of the Church Quest. Are men of the high Prelacy or high and rigid Sons of the Church men of the highest form in Religion and of a more perfect serious and solid Godliness than the poor silly scrupulous Nonconforming-Turn-ours See Debate p. 155. Answ 'T is very strange if Preferment if great places of Power and Profit should indeed make men more truly and seriously godly and particularly should by an Antiparistasis produce the great work of Self-denyal Mortification c. We will not at present compare Godliness but this I think That 't is no demonstration of a higher degree of Godliness to jeer at Godliness though in a Dissenter and accompanied with some Weaknesses and imperfections to make the door to the Theatre and Stage so wide and to the Church and Pulpit so strait and narrow Cerâ—â—inly the true right perfect godly man is neither your Nonconformist godly man nor Conformist as described in the Debate
and the Silk of Simplicity As for the Rational way the mode of some great Doctors of these days if they would intermix more of Scripture-Reason or Scripture-Testimonies it might be very profitable for learned Auditories As for the way by Doctrine Reason and Use by Testimonies out of the holy Scriptures more than Citations out of the Ancient Fathers or by Reasons deduced from Philosophy such as I apprehend was the preaching of Mr. Perkins Mr. Hildersham old Mr. Dod Archbishop Usher Bishop Sanderson Bishop Reynolds and many others in our days I think it most edifying to ordinary Auditors And this I conceive to be that which the Assembly mean in their Directory for preaching and others in their Prayers before Sermon by preaching in the evidence and demonstration of the Spirit and of Power Bishop Hall in his Paraphrase and the Bishop of Chester in his Ecclesiâ—stes as I conceive are both of this Judgment Scripture-Reasons and Scripture-words and phrases do best of all become a Minister of the Word Doctrina Evangelii cum sit Divina ac tota spiritualis Divinis etiam verbis explicanda Divinis rationibus confirmanda est ut proportio servetur inter res verba itemque argumenta quaâ—â— non temerè in rebus Theologicis usurpandae sunt â—â—manae phrases nec rationes Philosophicae nisi prorâ—â— evidentes sint facile adhibendae Vorstius on the second Chapter of the first Epistle to the Corinthians Quest Are not all private Meetings for exercise of Religion illegal and schismatical though not in opposition unto the Publique Assemblies Answ Till of late a Conventicle I have heard was a Meeting under pretence of Religiâ—â— where people met to pray and preach against the Government of the Church and State The Bishop by the Canons hath power to give leave for the keeping of a private Fast And I know a Bishop that did so before the Act against Conventicles was made Quest Is it impossible that they should be either good Christians or good Subjects who keep and frequent private Meetings commonly called Conventicles Answ There are amongst the Papists whom may suppose the Author of the Debate thinks good Christians and good Subjects who assemble themselves for Religious Exercises And there were a Congregation of Protestants in the Reign of Queen Marry which yet were good Christians and good Subjects and which I would not brand with the name of a Conventicle no more than the Author of the Debate would the Meetings of Dr. Gunning Dr. Hyde and other for the Common Prayer in the late time although if Conventicles be against the Common Law that was the same then and now Judicious Mr. Hales in his Tract of Schism hath more Charity for Dissenten P. 2. When either false and uncertain Conclusions are obtruded for Truth and Acts either unlawful or ministring just scruple are required of us to be performed in these Cases saith he Coâ—sent were Conspiracy and of open Contestation is 〈◊〉 Faction or Schism but due Christian Animosity Quest Whether do the Nonconformist-Mitisters look after Visions and Revelations Answ 'T is that which the Papists and Semiâ— Pâ—pists the Quakers pretend unto but these I conceive may rather be ranked amongst the Conformists than the Nonconformists by the like reason that Seekers and Anabaptists are numbre a nongst Nonconformists And here let me inserâ— a short story In the late times One now a great Son of thâ— Church travelling with two now Nonconforming Ministers he being the Senior Man and Minister was desired to pray with them and for them before they went to Bed this he did and in his Prayed That God would send them Godly Dreams that night On occasion whereof one of the Ministers said to the other He did not like this over-Godliness he that would over-godly it would undergodly it If any Nonconforming-Ministers have been superstitiously observers of Dreams it may be queried whether the late Little Great Archbishop of Canterbury was not guilty of the same fault also Quest Do the Nonconformists perswade or assure themselves of Gods favour onely or chiefly from a voice within them which they say is the holy Spirit telling them that they are Jedidiah's beloved of God And do they not look upon what Graces the holy Spirit hath wrought in them as evidences of his Love Answ We affirm that the Works or fruits of the Holy Ghost in us which upon search we find in our own Souls are our Evidences of Gods love to us If we once find in our selves those gracious Qualifications to which the Promises of Pardon Peace and Comfort are made in the holy Scripture this is every whit as sure as if an Angel from Heaven should tell us with an audible Voice Be of good chear your sins are forgiven you Peace be to you you are the Favourites of Heaven The Spirit of God is first a sanctifying and then a sealing Spirit first he converts us and then he comforts us Quest Do not Nonconfomists vaunt too much of their Assurances Comforts Experiences And may not these prove strange fancies in conclusion Answ The holy Prophet David and the blessed Apostle Paul both cite their own Experiences and draw comfor from them He delivered me from the mouth of the Lion 1 Sam. 17.37 and from the paw of the Bear and he will deliver me from this uncircumcised Philistine So the ore And he hath delivered he doth deliver in whom I trust also that he will yet deliver So the other Quest Do these Nonconforming-Ministers cheat the People by making them believe that they preach experimentally what they have heard and seen and experimented themselves Debâ—â— p. 35 37. Edit 4. Answ I have heard that it was the Saying of a Learned Man no Nonconformist That the way to be a good Preacher was to get a good Heart Doubtless that which comes from the Heart is most likely to go to the Heart He that hath tasted the sweetness of Honey and Sugar can better speak of it knows better by his experience the sweetness of Honey and Sugar than he that hath onely heard and read of it in a Book Holy David a King and a Prophet called to others to hearken and he would tell them what God had doâ—â— for his Soul He that hath been perswaded and converted himself is likeliest to perswade and convert others 'T is storied of Junius That before his Conversion meeting once with a Country-man as he was in a Journey and falling into discourse with him about divers points of Religion he observed the plain fellow to talk so experimentally with so much heartiness and affection as made him first begin to think sure there was something more in those Truths than his notional humane Learning had yet discovered which occasioned his more serious enquiry into them and afterwards his Conversion Quest Is it proper to alledge the conversion of Souls from the Error of their Ways as a Seal to our Ministry Answ The Apostle St. Paul when his
that Law in the very design of it Else why contrary to the Act of Oblivion doth he rake up the memory of what was written and preached before and in the Wars and that sometimes by persons very little considerable for their parts learning or place amongst their own party and why doth he charge those things upon the Nonconformists of this Generation Quest Were not Nonconformists even from the beginning of Nonconformity generally very peevish impudent censorious and disobedient to Authority Answ The Old Puritans if we believe the Historian and he was a Conformist and a Dignitary were humble meek patient hospitable charitable as in his Censures of so in his Alms to others Dr. Full. H. 6.11.220 And if we beâ—ieve the Author of the Debate the Ancient Nonconformists were many of them men of â—ober and peaceful principles and did submit to Authority and were enemies to Separation such were Mr. Ball Mr. Geere and all those who were the Authors of that grave and modest Confutation of the Error and Sect of the Brownists or Separatists published by Mr. Rathband Quest. Have not some of the High Sons of the Church changed their Principles in relation to King and Parliament Answ Time was when they pleaded strongly Where the Word of a King is there is power But lately when his Majesty published a Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs c. then their note was changed That was no Law they said and the King could not do it without the Parliament And yet then the House of Commons gave his Majesty thanks for doing it Time was when a Long Parliament was accounted by them a grievous Disease and now it is the great Remedy Time was when they cryed down all Parliaments now they cry up this Whence comes this change I answer The case is alter'd quoth Ployden Quest Is this good Logick or solid reasoning Mr. Lewes Hughes Mr. Vicars Mr. Bridges did write thus and thus in the War-time Ergo or therefore the Nonconformists at present are all thus and thus Answ I deny the Consequence as the Author of the Debate would and well might If a man should argue thus Mr. VVhite set out a Book of a hundred which he called Scandalous Ministers that were ejected by the Parliament If we grant some of those hundred were scandalous therefore all that were ejected in those dayes were scandalous Or thus They say one Wallis of Gloucester published a Book of scandalous words and deeds of perhaps twenty or thirty now Conformable-Ministers therefore if some of them were guilty all that conform are faulty in like manner Quest Is it an argument or evidence of eminent Godliness and of extraordinary Charity to charge thousands with Errors or miscarriages of half a dozen or half a score Answ No. God who is Love it self would have spared Sodom for the sake of ten righteous persons And surely our enemies when they are serious and sober and their passions not predominant both of old and of late might find if they would look about more than ten righteous persons godly meek modest charitable and peaceable among the Nonconformists In the beginning of the Reformation there were a sort of Anabaptists rose up in Germany and did horrid things at Munster and elsewhere was the fault therefore in the Reformation Although the Papists use to charge it upon the Protestant Religion that it is the Spring and Fountain of Sedition and Rebellion where it is received Yet both We and our Brethren Conformists are able to wipe off that foul aspersion and so are the Nonconformists of these dayes the dirt that is thrown in their faces by the aforesaid Author If any have called Conformists Egyptians Babylonians Canaanites Antichristians or the like let it not be charged on those that disapprove and condemn their sayings If any speak in the Clouds and you fancy they challenge to themselves a power by Prayer to rain down Blood upon us let it not be charged upon them that live quietly and peaceably in the Land teach men so to do by their life and doctrine if they preach at all If there be any man that designs by preaching or otherwise to throw the Nation into War and Blood again I wish he may prophesie in Sackcloth And when he pretends to pour out Vials of Wrath his threatnings may be like water spilt upon the ground Quest Do Nonconformists look shortly to shut Heaven and turn Waters into Bloud C. Answ Mr. Parker of New-England printed a Book on Daniel's Visions and Prophesies Anno 1646. and according to him there will be no shutting of Heaven no turning of Waters into Blood at least no putting off of the VVitnesses Sackcloth which saith our Author Contin of Fr. Deb. p. 142. Mr. W. B. now expects till the year 1856. when we shall be all Conformists and Nonconformists at peace in our Graves If Mr. W. B. discourse of such Prophecies in his Sermons I assure you he and one more are all that I can hear of that meddle to preach on such subjects I am told Those that preach in private preach Faith and Repentance and meddle not with matters relating to the Government either of Church or State And I was lately asking a prime Nonconformist and an able Preacher what he said to that Objection in the Debate that the Nonconformists did not preach up Obedience to Magistrates He very zealously and confidently replied They did it and that more than the Conformists themselves Quest. Do not the Conformists some of them medule sometimes with the interpreting and applying phrases and notions they meet with in the Revelations Answ Bishop Williams Bishop of Ossory wrote a Book to prove the Long Parliament Antichrist and he or another made Oliver Cromwel Antichrist and Dr. Fuller in his Church-History writes of one that observed that the Covenant had in it the Number of the Beast One hundred sixty six consisting as he said of just so many words Quest Were not the old Nonconformistâ— much better then those in our days C. Answ Their Nonconformity did not cosâ— them so much as it doth us and in the times they lived they were likely accused as we are now When we are as they now really as well as Legally dead it may be we may have a good word also In Queen Elizabeth's days the Nonconformists were not more pliant or complying than they are now There were not the Tythe of the Ministers then ejected to what since There were more bitter Books put out then against the Hierarchy than are now If I mis-remember not the Nonconformists gave the first Charge then but now-a-days we are alarum'd and assaulted once and again and no man appeared publickly to defend our Principles or Practices We are loaded with Reproaches and many grievous and heavy things laid to our charge and no man for a long time in our name in print so much as pleaded Not Guilty and offered to Traverse the Indictment or put himself upon the Tryal of his Country Say
Laws once made rigorously to be put in execution necessarily and especially Laws concerning Ecclesiastical Affairs Answ Laws that are lawful and necessary to the Esse or Being of the Church or State are doubtless to be put in execution not so those always that tend to Order and Decency Supreme Governours may upon just occasion forbear inflicting the Penalties upon Offenders against penal Statutes Yea Excommunication that Great Church-Censure may be suspended when the major part of a Church are infected with some Errour or are guilty of some scandalous offence the end of Laws Ecclesiastical and Civil being the peace of Church and State where the execution of Laws may occasion more harm than good more disquet than peace there the supreme Power may for a time wave the exact and rigorous execution of them His Majesty in his Declaration to all his loving Subjects Decemb. 26.1662 published by the Advice of his Privy Council conceives the power of dispensing with the Penalty upon those who living peaceably do not Conform to be inherent in him Some Laws are made in terrorem like Rods in a School 'T is not intended that every Offender and every Offence should be presently punished according to the utmost severity of them The Common Law in some Cases seems to need a Chancery to moderate the rigor of it lest that summum jus prove summa injuria He who will not allow his Majesty to save some by his Prerogative who are cast by the Law robs him of a principal Flower of his Crown his very Crown and Glory and that is His CLEMENCY Quest. Were not the Old Puritans as they used to call the Nonconformists Enemies to the Kings Supremacy Answ In a Treatise of Learned Mr. Bradshaw who wrote of Justification there is a Protestation by them made of the Kings Supremacy in these words We hold and maintain the same Authority and Supremacy in all Causes and over all Persons Civil and Ecclesiastical granted to Queen Elizabeth to be due in full and ample manner without any limitation or qualification to the King and his Heirs and Successors for ever Neither is there to our knowledge any one of us but hath been most willing to subscribe and swear unto the same according to form of Statute And we desire that those that shall refuse the same may bear their own Iniquity Quest Were not the Nonconformists in former times disobedient to the Laws And did they not refuse to conform out of humour and stubbornness and not our of Conscience Answ The same Mr. Bradshaw in the same Treatise protests in their Name as followeth We never refused Obedience to any haves or Commandments of the King or State whatsoever but onely to such as we have proved or are ready to prove if we might be heard to be contrary to the Word of God And we are ready to take our solemn Oaths before the Throne of Justice That the onely Cause of our refusal of Obedience to those Canons of the Prelates for which roe are at present so extremely afflicted is meer Conscience and a fear to sin against God And if by due form of Reasoning we may be convinced in our Consciences of the cannery we are as willing at any Subjects in the Realm to obey and conform Quest. But is it at all material what the Nonconformists swear are not our present Nonconformists guilty of taking God's Name into their mouths backward and forward and never blush Vide Contin p. 18. Answ It was the conscience of an Oath and a care to prevent the great guilt of Perjury that made Dr. Hill one of the late Assembly when Vice-Chancelor of Cambridge and the University in those dayes to insert those explanatory clauses in the Oaths of those who took degrees Viz. Jurabis te haec omnia reliqua Academae Statuta quatenus ipsa ad te spectant vel fideliter observasse observaturum vel monitiones correctiones paenas dictorum Statutorum transgressoribus incumbentes sine contradictione quacunque humiliter subiisse aut subiturum ni sialiter per gratiam per Acaedemiam concessam dispensatum tecum fuerit sicut Te Deus adjuvet c. and again Senatus Cantabrigiensis decrevit declaravit eos omnes qui monitionibus correctionibus paenus Statutorum Legum Decretorum Ordinationum Injunctionum Laudabilium Consuetudinum hujus Academiae trangressoribus quovis modo Incumbentibus humiliter se submiserint nec esse nec habendos esse perjurii reos By which clauses 't is manifest that either active or passive obedience to the Statutes Orders and Customs of the Universities did save from the guilt of Perjury And confident I am that 't is the fear of an Oath that is the chief cause why many suffer the loss of their Livings at this day Quest. Is there not a good riddance of so many Mr. Scruples out of the Church And is there any want of able Preachers up and down in the Country now they are ejected Answ My Lord Bacon in his dayes thought there was a scarcity of able Preachers and yet there were not the tythe perhaps of Ministers silenced then to what are now And be thought then that the silencing of the Ministers for their Nonconformity was a punishment of the People rather than of the Minister He conceived then also that such Subscriptions might have been forborn as occasioned the silencing of divers of those Ministers Cons ab Eccl. Aff. Quest What if there were many places made void by the ejectment of Nonconformists may not those places be well filled by Conforming-Pluralists Answ My Lord Bacon saith In case the number of able Ministers were sufficient and the value of the Benefices were sufficient then Pluralities were in no sort tolerable And as for Nonresidents except it be just of necessary absence he saith it seemeth to be an abuse drawn out of covetousness and sloth for that men should live of the Flock they do not feed or at the Altar whereat they do not serve is a thing that can hardly receive just defence And to exercise the Office of a Pastor in matter of Word and Doctrine by deputation is a thing not warranted So he in his Treatise dedicated to King James about Ecclesiast Affairs For my own part I think the Poligamy of the Fathers or the Patriarchs of old as excusable as the Spiritual Polygamy of many of the Sons of our Church And to serve Cures of Souls meerly by Proxies and Deputies besides that it may seem to strengthen the Pope's plea for Universal Pastors whilst so many stand idle in the Market-place able and willing to take care of those Souls is a thing I shall not take upon me to justifie Let me add this also that 't is one Objection which hath been formerly made against the Liturgy That it occasions an ignorant dumb and a lazy Ministry but were it not for Pluralities and Non-residency and insufficient Livings there might be no place for such objection The Author
Unity than the Romanists and yet in several Countries they have several Rites Customs and Priviledges and in England before the happy Reformation the Service was ad modum Sarum and ad modum Bangor different in divers Churches Quest Is it not necessary to appoint the same Vestures and Gestures for the Worship of God to avoid difference and confusion Answ There is no Gesture or Ceremony prescribed in the singing of Psalms and yet People generally are bare and reverend in that exercise The late Canons in 1640. leave Bowing towards the East of Altar indifferent and would not have those that do it to judge those that do it not nor those that do it not to judge those that do it Now what greater inconvenience would follow if the same moderation and liberty to practise differently were used as to the Cross Surplice and Kneeling at the Sacrament of the Lords Supper If there must be absolute and universal Uniformity in the Worship of God amonst the Worshippers then all must alike have their Faces one way must wear all Garments of the same fashion and colour In the late Times when the Liturgy and Ceremonies were disused there were not a quarter of those private Meetings that have been since The number of them that separated from the Publick Worship were very small in comparison I suppose not ten to an hundred The Author of the Debate I guess and hundreds if not thousands of Conformists did not hold themselves bound notwithstanding the Laws for Liturgy and Ceremonies to absent themselves from the then Publick Worship and assemble privately that they might uphold Uniformity in Forms of Prayer Rites and Ceremonies Whence we may reasonably conclude That they thought Gods Publick Worship might be carried on without Uniformity in these things And again That the omission of things required by Law is not judged so great a sin as is by them pretended Quest Did not Presbyterians decry all Separaration and refuse to tolerate Independents See Cont. p. 224. Answ The Presbyterians both old and modern are against Separation They deny that they separate from you for upon occasion they joyn with you in Ordinances and if you remove some things wherewith your Worship is clogg'd they would joyfully communicate constantly with you The present partial and temporary withdrawing as to some Acts of Worship is not to be charged with Schism If you hold forth communion with your Church as in the Apostles days with a Liturgy sufficiently corrected without Symbolical Ceremonies without such Oaths Declarations and Subscriptions they will come into your Bosom though you not onely cast them out of your Lap but thrust them out of your House and shut the Doors upon them As we justifie the Church of England from Schism notwithstanding our Separation from Rome so the Nonconformists will endeavour to justifie their withdrawings in some Acts and for a time only by reason of the terms of Communion imposed on them That they are for Reformation not Separation may be hence concluded That in a late project for Peace and Agreement this was one Proposition given in by the Presbyterians themselves That whosoever should be capable of any Employment should profess to hold Communion with the Church of England and to the uttermost of his power to promote the Peace and Happiness thereof And when there was a difference betwixt Presbyterians and their Brethren commonly called Independents formerly there was a Conference before a Committee of Parliament betwixt them in which the Presbyterians as I am credibly informed offered either to give or take that is to say They would take the Establishment and allow their Brethren of the Congregational-way a well-regulated Toleration or let their Brethren take the Establishment and allow the Presbyterians such a Toleration And one of the chief of them when the London-Ministers waited on his Majesty at the Hague when discourse was about Ecclesiastical Affairs earnestly moved his Majesty that he would please to think of a way to indulge them a Liberty though they should not be comprehended in the Publick Establishment as it was then hoped the Presbyterian would have been In brief the Presbyterians disclaim Separation they are willing to have Union and Communion with the Church of England upon Christian and friendly Terms And they desire the like Liberty and Toleration from the Bishops that they were willing and ready to have shewed to their Brethren of the Congregational Way Yea they would bless God and our Governours if they might have the like Favours and Liberties that Dr. Gunning Dr. Wild Dr. Hide and others the Now-Conformists had in former times Quest If the Presbyterians are willing to conform to a Liturgy and to this Liturgy when sufficiently corrected yet what hopes is there that ever there should be any Alteration or Reformation of it which will satisfie or please them so as to use it Answ Yes there is such a draught already made to the great content of the chief of the Presbyterians and this done by three Reverend persons all Conformists And which I hope may be produced when ever Authority shall please to command it Quest. Would it not be accounted a weak thing to yeild or condescend though never so little if this might be a means to cement and soder us together again Answ It was the prudence of the ancient Church to satisfie the Joannites who had kept Conventicles apart from the Church for thirty years being disgusted at the dishonour done to John Chrysostom their Bishop or Pastor and this the Church did by restoring his honour after he was dead Socrat. Eccles Hist. Quest Why should the Church of England remove the Ceremonies which she hath retained since the Reformation May she not thereby disgust and offend the Romanists to please the Nonconformists which they call Puritans rather than Protestants Answ These Ceremonies were at first retained and continued when others were cast out of the Church in hopes to bring the Papists to a compliance with our Church But Archbishop Usher as he that writes his Life informs us upon occasion declared his Judgement concerning them That experience of many years hath shewed that this condescention hath rather hardned them in their Error than brought them to a liking of our Religion this being their usual saying If our Flesh be not good why do you drink of our Broth If the Church stick close to the Ceremonies she is not like to gain our Adversaries the Romanists to our Communion if she lay aside the Ceremonies she may gain thousands and ten thousands of our Brethren to our Church again That they may do thus God grant that the same mind might be in all our Bishops that was in Christ Jesus the chief Shepherd and Bishop of our Souls that they may love and feed their Sheep and be ready to lay down their lives for their Sheep and then their Yoak will be easie and their Burden light Or that was in the blessed Apostle Paul on whom was the
committed Surely they are as tolerable in a Church where the Supreme Power thinks good to establish that Order as are Chancellors Commissaries c. But in case that some Presbyterians of old held them of use in the Apostles days this alone without an Institution and an Injunction to perpetuate them doth not make them or any other Ecclesiastical Officers unalterable for we see that the Office of Widdows is laid aside in the Church notwithstanding Quest Did not the Presbyterians wholly lay aside the use of the Lords Supper And was it not for want of Ruling Elders Answ They celebrated the Lords Supper in London and that too in some Churches once a Month and frequently at Oxford and I suppose in many other places Possibly the expectation of a settlement might hinder the Administration of that Ordinance for a time in many places Bur I knew a Parish where it was a long time disused though desired because the Parishoners did not provide though oft urged unto it by the Minister decent and necessary Utensils for the Celebration of it Quest Do the Nonconformists decry all use of Reason in Theology Answ They use frequently Reasons in their Sermons Indeed they allow Reason but the second place in Divinity to Revelation they give the first Reason and Philosophy they make to be the Handmaids but Divinity they honour as their Soveraign Lady and Queen Reason is the Counsellor but Revelation is the Law-giver We say the Light of Reason is as the Light of a Glow-Worm or of a Candle or if you will needs have it as the Light of the Moon but the Light of Divine Revelation is as the Light of the Sun when it shineth in its full strength Dr. T. And with a reverend and learned Doctor we allow the use of a Candle although we would have it snuffed and when it is set up in the house we would not have the Window shut either to keep our or at least to darken the Light of the Sun We prefer feeding on Manna before feeding on Acorns and Husks the Commands of St. Paul before the Precepts of Plato the Mass of Gold in the Mine before a few pieces of Silver scattered here and there in the Studies of Philosophers Quest Do the Congregations of those that dissent from the established Worship consist mostly of Army Saints Answ I have heard one that hath reason to know upon many Accounts better than the Author of the Debate say That there is scarce a fifth person of those that meet privately that was engaged in the late Differences And that the greatest part of the late Army are at this day Members of Parochial Churches is an even Wager Quest Do the Arminians or Calvinists come nearest to the Doctrine of the Church of England Answ The profound pious and learned Doctor Samuel Ward that was the La. Margaret's Professor of Divinity in Cambridge whose Determinations are set out by the great pains and care of the Right Reverend Seth Lord Bishop of Sarisbury in a Sermon of his Ad Clerum and dedicated by himself to the University of Cambridge testifies That as the whole Church of God ever since St. Austine so in particular the National Church of England and the University of Cambridge from the Reformation and all the Professors except onely one Baro were against Arminius his Tenets And this Baro within two years was forced to leave the Chair by the Power and Authority of Archbishop Whitgift Illud etiam verè adjicere possum plus uni Augustino jam veterano in ista causa versatissimo tribuendum esse quà m centùm Corvinis Grotiis Vorstiis Bertiis Tilenis id genus recentioribus Dogmatistis Accedat illud coronidis loco Augustino semper ad baesisse hac ex-parte Ecclesiam Universalem ab ejus temporibus Ecclesiam item Anglicanam ab initio Reformationis c. Quest Is the case of the Donatists and the case of the Non-conformists alike Answ The Donatists as they had no cause in regard of the Faith by reason of any dangerous Doctrines or Practices imposed on them to cease from communicating with any part of the Catholick Church so they divided from the whole Church with the breach of Charity condemning it for no Church and drawing the Communion wholly to themselves The Nonconformists do not condemn the Church of England as no Church they do not confine the Communion to themselves they humbly pray a Reformation of some things which they conceive amiss and are willing to have Communion with them as Parts of the Catholick Church saving the Practices wherein they differ they leave them to their Liberty and desire a Liberty for themselves to serve God according to their Consciences The Presbyterians shewed their Charity in their earnest endeavours to save the life of Dr. Hewit an Episcopal Dr for which purpose they joyned in an Address to O. C. the only Address they ever made unto him Neither Presbyterians nor Congregationists charge the Episcopalians for being Schismaticks because they do not communicate with their Congregations and yet they look upon themselves as true Churches of Christ and both for Doctrine and Discipline to come as near the Scripture-Patern as themselves They offered to Unite and Reconcile with the Episcopal-Clergy upon Christian terms before His Majesties Return and since As for out Brethren of New England they are of Age let them answer for themselves As for our Congreational Brethren at home I lately heard that Dr. Goodwin should profess to hold Communion even with the Lutheran Churches And Dr. Owen professeth against all Impositions and that 't is his Judgment That the Episcopals and Presbyterians be left to worship God as they judge in their Consciences best That for his part he judgeth no man for his Conformity provided he be not a Persecuter of those that cannot Finally The Presbyterians for themselves desire much rather a Reformation or well stated Comprehension than a Toleration and are against Schism and Separation truly so called as much as any which they have sufficiently evidenced by their constantly declared Opinions and Practice They would be glad to see the day when being eased of burdensome Impositions they might have opportunity to manifest this their sincere desire of Union and Coalition with the Church of England A Postscript to the Author of the Friendly Debate SIR YOu have dealt with us as the Jewes did with our Blessed Saviour blindfolded us smitten us in effect bid us Prophesie who it is that smote us Some ghesses have been who you are by the roughness of your hand and the smartness of the blow I have not taken upon me thus to shoot in the dark and yet pretend to hit the Mark Nor will I go about to pull off the Vizor you put upon your own face but to wipe off the dirt which you have cast on ours To this purpose I pray you after these premised Reflections by me on some Passages in your Friendly Debate c.
a better man than ever he thought him to be there were so many good things charged upon him And another Presbyterian now a Nonconformist preaching to the same Auditors preached that Antichristian and Babylonian were terms sooner imputed or charged than proved But if the Nonconforming-Ministers or People were yet ignorant and to seek for scoffing and reviling language they might have a Dictionary of such hard words out of the Friendly Debate If there be in Private-meetings that use railing and reviling speeches as too many too often have is publick Congregations I would rather advise people to sit quietly at home if they will not go to Church than to go or step out of doors to learn their language I do not love a biting tongue and I take a black mouth to be as venemous in a man as 't is accounted wholsom in a dog And if there be any printed Book wiâ—h such railing speeches or phrases in them I will promise you it shall never have my Imprimatur without an Index expurgatorius in the next Edition Quest Is the Divinity of the Nonconformists a Phrase-Divinity and in case their Books and Sermons are not fill'd with foul language is there any thing besides fine words and new phrases in them Answ There was something besides words in the Old Nonconformists witness the writings of Mr. Dod Mr. Ball Mr. Hildersham Mr. Bradshaw c. And doubtless there is matter and that good matter and sound speech that need not to be ashamed in the Writings of Nonconformists of this Generation witness the Books written by Mr. Baxter Dr. Manton Mr. Caryll Mr. Allen Dr. Owen Mr. Pool c. they hold to Scripture-expressions and to the terms of sound words which they have received from the most serious solid pious Bishops and Doctors of the Chair Professors at home and abroad in former times yea the Nonconforming-Presbyterians and Congregational Ministers profess to agree with our Articles of Religion of the Church of England in all things concerning the Doctrine of Faith and Ceremonies And is all this but Phrase-Divinity The Author of the Debate and divers other of the present Conformists may as justly be charged for new Divinity new minted words in Divinity new phrases and modes of expressing themselves in Sermons and Writings and these too less conform to the language of the holy Scripture our own Articles and Homilies the Harmony of Confessions of the Reformed Churches and our ancient Bishops and Doctors The Author of the Debate though he seems to be the Bishops Advocate yet his Writings shew him more an Episcopian than an Episcopalian and 't is easie to see from what forge they have their new Divinity and new Theological Dictionary Quest. Were not the Nonconformists the cause of the strange and new Doctrines and Opinions and of phantastical words and phrases in preaching and writing Ans I grant the taking down the old Mound or Hedge and not setting a new one in the room was an occasion that many erronious persons like wild beasts did get into the Vineyard and that some strange Doctrines Phancies Phrases and Whimses were vented in the Times of War and late Confusions but I say that these things are not to be charged upon the Presbyterians for if they had had power to their principles and purposes they would doubtless have raised up a Mound or Fence against such Errors Fancies and Follies as strong as that the Parliament removed I have heard it observed that of all Churches no Church hath had fewer Heresies and Heterodoxies spring up or at least prosper in it than the Church of Scotland and that this was acknowledged by King James Quest Were all that took the Covenant bound thereby to endeavour to introduce the Government of the Church of Scotland into England because they obliged themselves to maintain and defend Religion in the Church of Scotland and to reform Religion in the Church of England Vid. Contin p. 168. Answ No. They engaged only in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might to preserve Religion in the Church of Scotland against the Common Enemy notwithstanding which the Scots might reform ought that was amiss or defective with his Majesties leave and consent in a legal manner And the English Covenanters were not bound to model the Church-Government in England according to the pattern of the Kirk of Scotland but according to the Word of God and the best Reformed Churches Whether Scotland or Holland or Geneva c. was the best Reformed Church was not determined And the English were not engaged in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might by the Covenant to follow the Model of any one of these or all the Reformed Churches in any thing disagreeing from the Word of God and in case a primitive Episcopacy that is Church-Government by a Bishop with a Presbytery as his Counsellors and Assistants prove most agreeable to the Word of God they were bound to set up onely in their places and callings and so far as lawfully they might that Government in the Church of England Notwithstanding what the Earl of Bristol when Lord Digby hath written in his Letters to Sir Kenelm Digby viz. He that would reduce the Church now to the Form of Government in the most primitive times should not take in my Opinion the best nor the wisest course I am sure not the safest for he would be found pecking towards the Presbytery of Scotland which for my part I believe in point of Government hath a greater resemblance than yours or ours to the first Age of Christs Church But whatever was the meaning of the Imposers or Takers of the Covenant in those days I have heard an eminent Person a Doctor that had taken it though a Nonconformist declare That he was not bound by it to endeavour any other Reformation than what he had been obliged unto if he never had taken the Covenant that he is not bound to use any unlawful or seditious means or endeavours to bring about a Reformation That the Law of the Land is the Rule to judge by what means or endeavours are unlawful and seditious Quest Do not the Presbyterians play fast and loose and turn with the wind Was not the time once when they held Ruling Elders to be Jure Divino but now they hold no such matter Answ I believe the Scottish Presbyterians were and still are of that Judgement that Ruling Elders are Jure Divino but I knew few English if any that held that Office so save onely in a large sence as many Episcopalians now hold Bishops to be Jure Divino that is a lawful Government not repugnant to the Word of God However 't is said and that by no mean Scholar That Geneva did not first institute those Officers but only restored them And I have read that it was acknowledged by a great Prelate That the Church had in every Church certain Seniors to whom the Government of the Church was