all his commandements and who hath greater authority upon the earth then they that are visible Saints and what makes men visible Saints if not the manifestation of their obedience to God the Father and Christ his sonne in the practise of all his Ordinances and not to have some other Presbyters present with them to assist them as you affirme for by these other Presbyters I know not yet who you meane And whereas you say that the Church may be led into errours or kept in a low estate by unfit Pastors and Elders I answer It is a cleare truth as wofull experience teacheth us who live here in the Land of England And whereas you affirme that visible Saints cannot ordaine Officers because they have no gifts of prayer I Answer Here you make prayer the Ordination of Ministers And whereas you say they are not able to conceive prayer Here you give the holy Ghost the lie for Beleevers have received the Spirit of adoption to cry Abba Father But say you they cannot conceive prayer according to the action in boâ—â— Here you would seeme to make beleevers which have the Spirit of God to leade them into all truths more voide of common reason then men that have but gifts of nature Againe you say they have not gifts to make publike exhortation and admonition To which I answer If they had first knowledge to feele the want of a Pastor and also divers able men out of whom to elect and ordaine a Pastor then they out of whom this person is chosen are able to exhort and to admonish for he that hath not the gift of teaching may have the gift of exhortation againe the man that undertaketh to teach others ought to be taught by God and likewise to be able by sound Doctrine to withstand the Gainesayers but a man may give good exhortations and that publikely that is not able to withstand the Gainesayers by â—ound Doctrine By this you may see the Church of God can never be without some Ministers except it be according to that spoken by Zachaâ—iah in the day of very small things indeede when God shall take away their Ministers by death prison or exile for seeing the Churches were planted by Ministers of Gods owne ordaining therefore they were not without Ministers in the very beginning and still the Churches are planted by the Ministeriall power of the Lord Jesus which cannot be exercised without fit instruments Yet that they must want the word preached or Sacraments administred till they have Pastors and Teacher in Office is yet to be proved but that page of Mr. Robinsons which hath beene alledged before is sufficient for this present purpose against you even to prove that the family must not be unprovided for either for the absence or neglect of a Steward But now you seeme to insinuate an affirmation or a supposition I cannot well tell whether That a ruleing Elder may be destitute of the guift of discering and seeme to imply that if he be destitute then all the Church must be destitute if there be no more Officers then be Here you would faine make the ruling Elders the eyes of the Church and then all the rest of the body must be blinde and so unfit to have any hand in election and also voide of the Spirit of Grace to discerne the gifts by though it hath beene proved unto you before that she is the greatest of all having the Spirit of God to leade her into all truth being the Spouse of Christ and endowed with all his riches gifts and donations And thus you still deny the Authority ability of the Church giving to the persons in office all power and deserning But this is indeede according to your practise here in England but not according to the minde and Spirit of God And for the neighbour Churches Counsell I deny not but that it may be imbraced and the Saints have cause to praise God for any helpes of Gods ordaining But if they want the helpe of a neighbour Church to Counsell them or neighbour Ministers to direct them yet if they be a Church of Jesus Christ they have as hath beene said before power among themselves to elect and ordaine their owne Officers as also the Spirit of discerning whereby to try their gifts and yet be farre from falling into that evill which they complaine against in the Episcopacie namely for one man to have the sole power of Ordination By all these particulars you may clearely see all your pretended proofes and former assertions disproved as I promised you in the entrance of this my answer to your second Reason So that these two first Reasons being as I conceive the greatest Champions which you have sent out in this skirmage are now both slaine and made voide of all the life that ever was in them for they were made most of suppositions and of things that appeared unto you by likelihood without any ground from the Scriptures and of some other thing than Gods Word allowed and of some triviall affirmations which were not grounded upon any truth of Gods Word Now these two being thus turned aside by one of the meanest of all the Army of Jesus Christ you may justly feare that all the rest of your souldiers will run away wounded IN your third Reason You say it is not to be thought that Christ would institute such a Government of his Church which affords no helpe nor allowes no way or remedy for innocent persons that are wronged Which thing I grant to be very true but touching the means and helpes which you pleade for that is some other Synods to appeale unto I tell you I know not what Synods you meane But this I affirme that there are no larger Synods to be kept to settle Church differences then the comming together of the Ministers and Brethren as it is mentioned in the 15th of the Acts which I have granted you in my Answers to your former Reasons And whereas you strive for appeales I Answer It is the rule of Christ that if one brother doe trespasse against another and if the brother offending will not be reclaimed by the private admonition of the brother offended he is to be admonished by one or two other brethren with him but if he will not heare them the brother offended is to tell the Church and if he will not heare the Church then he is not to be accounted a brother but as a Heathen man and a Publican if not as a brother then out of the fellowship then if the wrong be any personall injury as oppression or fraud or any other sinne of these natures the Law is open where he may appeale for Justice to the Magistrate in any part of the Kingdome where-ever he liveth but if it be a matter of scandall as if hee should be a drunkard or incontinent or the like then he hath sufficient remedy when such a one is cast out of his society By this you may see
very suggestion of Sathan into the hearts of our first Parents for they having a desire of some thing more then was warranted by God tooke unto them the forbidden fruit as you would have the Lords Churches to doe when you say they must take some others besides these Churches and Officers and that to interpose authoritatively and these something else you make to be Apostles Evangelists and Elders of other Churches whereas you confessed before that these are the furniture of Christs Kingdome and wee know their authoritie was limitted within the bounds of the Word of God as first If any of them would be greater he must be servant to all Secondly they were forbidden to be Lords over Gods heritage Thirdly they were commanded to teach the people to observe onely those things which Christ had commanded them And whereas you seeme to affirme that these Offices were extraordinary and ceased and yet the Churches have still neede of them You seeme to contradict your selfe and would faine cure it againe in that some other way which you say you have to supply the want of them but this other way you have not yet made known You presuppose it may be by some Sinods and Councels to make a conjunction of the whole If you meane such a Counsell as is mentioned Acts 15. 4. 22 consisting of Apostles and Elders with the whole Church then you have said no more than you have said before and that which we grant for this is still the furniture of the Kingdome but if you intend that your Counsell should consist of an armie of Arch-Bishops Diocesan Bishops Deanes Suffragans with the rest of that rabble which be for their titles names of blasphemy and such as were bred in the smoake of the pit I deny that any of these be ordained of God for they have no footing in his word therefore indeede these are a part of the fruit of the forbidden Tree which the Churches of God have taken and eaten and this seeking out inventions of their owne after that God made them righteous hath brought them into a state of Apostasie even as Ieroboams high places and Calves did the people of Israel which may plainely appeare by the Churches of Asia If these be that some other supply which you meane and have produced to helpe the Churches and Cities of God as you call them to determine for those Churches and Cities the cases of Doctrine and Discipline in stead of those many Ministers which you conceive them now to want it tends to make as they have now done a conjunction not onely of all the Churches professing one faith into one body but also of all the Armies of the Man of Sinne and so to confound the Church and the world together which the Ministers of the Gospell ought to divide by separating the precious from the vile And whereas you affirme The Independent Congregations now have but few Ministers It is very true for indeede they are but a few people and a few hands will feede a few mouths sufficiently if God provide meat But whereas you affirme That those Congregations may have no Officer at all by their owne grounds and yet be independent I thinke they conceive by those grounds the Office onely of Pastor and Teacher but not that the Church of God hath need at any time of the helpe of any other then God hath given and set in his Church which be all the Officers that are before mentioned as Apostles Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers and to have recourse to any for counsell helpe or assistance either of Church or Ministry which is not of Christs owne were very ridiculous For it is recorded Ephe. 4. 11. 12. That he gave these for the gathering together of the Saints for the worke of the Ministry and for the edification of the body of Christ being so gathered The time they must continue is till all the Saints be in the unitie of faith The reason wherefore they were given was to keepe people from being tossed too and fro with every winde of Doctrine And these are they by whom all the body is coupled and knit together by every joynt for the furniture thereof according to the effectuall power which is in the measure of every part and receiveth increase of the body unto the edifying of it selfe in love And this is according to the promise that Christ made Matth. 28. 19. 20. to be with his Ministers in teaching his people to the end of the world And thus you may see Mr. Edwards you cannot gather from our owne words that we have neede of the helpe of any other Churches or Ministers to interpose as you unjustly affirme as it may plainely appeare by Mr. Robinsons owne words in the Justification of the Separation pag. 121. 122. These are his words It is the Stewards duty to make provision for the family but what if he neglect this duty in the Masters absence Must the whole family starve yea and the wife also Or is not some other of the family best able to be employed for the present necessity The like he saith concerning the government of a Ship of an Armie and of Common wealths alluding to the Church of Christ And further expresseth that as a private Citizen may become a Magistrate so a private member may become a Minister for an action of necessity to be performed by the consent of the rest c. Therefore it appeares plainely by all that hath binsaid that the Churches of Christ may be truely constituted according to the Scripture and subsist a certaine time without Pastor and Teacher and enjoy the power of Christ amongst themselves having no dependancie upon any other Church or Churches which shall claime Authority or superiority over them And thus much for your first Reason NOw in your second Reason which runneth upon the calling of the Ministry you affirme That the government of the Independent Congregations is not of divine institution Which I utterly denie and will prove it by disproveing the following Instances by which you affirme to prove it Whereas you affirme That their Independencie forces them to have Ministers without Ordination I Answer it is a plaine case by the foregoing Answer to your first Reason that you speake untruely for their practise is there made knowne to be otherwise and if you will still affirme that they have not power so to practise you will thereby deny the truth of the Scriptures for the Apostles were commanded to teach the Churches to observe all things whatsoever Christ had commanded them But Christ commanded the Apostles to ordaine Elders in every Church by election therefore the Apostles taught the Churches to ordaine Elders by Election also And whereas you bid us produce one instance if we can for an ordinary Officer to be made without Ordination it is needlesse for we whom you call Independant strive for no such thing as you have proved it plainely out of Mr. Robinsons Booke Apol. Chap.
Synâ—ds and Classes and subject to their censures that is but a question of your owne begging and remaines for you to prove and denied of me The next thing you would know is the diference betweene excommâ—â—ication and rejeâ—â—ion and would seeme to make them both one To which I answer Titus had power to reject a person a but we doe not reade that he had power of himselfe to excommunicate that person A wicked man may be said to reject God when he rejecteth his Word So Saul rejected God 1 Sam. 15. 23. therefore God rejected him from being King vers. 26. but did he excommunicate God So the people of Israel rejected God 1 Sam. 8. 7. and 10. 19. Did they therefore excommunicate God Here Mr. Edwards you may see that Excommunication is more than rejection as it also plainely appeares by Pauls words 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. where he delivers unto them the forme of Excommunication in these words When ye are gathered together and my spirit in the name of our Lord Iesus Christ that such a one by the power of our Lord Iesus Christ be delivered unto Satâ—an c. Here Mr. Edwards you may plainely see the forme of this part of the Lords house This you see Paul had determined before and also that Pauls spirit was together with the Church in the action doing yet Paul tooke not upon him that power of himselfe but committed the action to the Church who had the power of our Lord Iesus Christ as he himselfe testifieth which plainely proves that the Church had the power that Paul had not for though Paul was a good Counsellor yet he was no executioner in that action but as a member for his part Here Mr. Edwards you may see the difference betweene rejection and excommunication a man in rejecting the Law of God may be said to reject God and he that addes to or diminisheth from the Lawes of God rejects God in rejecting the counsell of God which injoynes him neither to adde nor diminish but you by pleading for your unknowne Synods and ungrounded dependencie reject the counsell of God and so doe all those that assist you in it The next thing you affirme is That this government of Independencie which I have proved to be Christs government overthroâ—es the Communion of Saints To which I answer This appeares to be contrary by that which hath beene said already as for example the difference betweene the Church of Antiochia and the Church of Ierusalem turned to good because they undertooke not the authority to determine the case themselves as hath beene said because it was against the members of the Church of Ierasalem and this increased union and communion in both Churches as we may plainely see for Peter communicated unto them what God had revealed unto him and Paul Barnabas declared what God had done by them Iames calls fromâ— backe to consider what Peter had declared and backes it with the Scripture manifesting how it agreed with the words of the Prophets as you may reade at large in Act. 15. Thus you may see what sweete Communion was betweene these Churches that were both Independant Now whereas you say 〈◊〉 be in a Christian Common-wealth or Nation I doe affirme it may stand with Christs Church in a Common-wealth as may plainely appeare in the three first Chapters of the Revelations which testifies that there were seven Churcâ—â—s in Asia and these seven Churches were compared to seven gâ—â—den Candlestickes b and every Candlesticke stood by it seâ—â— and held forth her owne light as appeares by those severall mâ—â—sages which were sent to those seven Churches for had they had a dependencie one upon another in respect of power then one message would have served unto them all and what sinne any of the Churches or Angels were guilty of would have been laid unto the charge of all the Churches and Angels but wee see it was otherwise As for instance there was none charged for suffering the woman Iezebel to teach the people to commit for nication and to eate things sacrificed to Idols but the Angell of Thyatria by this you may plainely see there was not one Angell set over them all nor one Synod oppointed to judge and correct them all which is the thing you labour for Yet it cannot be said that the Independancie of these seven Churches hindred their communion either with Christ their head or one with another neither was it any disturbance to the Common-wealth or Nation wherein they lived And here you cannot say that I have eyaded but have answered you directly to these your doubts and suppositions and to many of your â—ffs which have beene your spies sent out in this Scout And moreover I will answer all your many Reasons as I come to them though they be joyned in battle with these I meane your following Reasons against Toleration and also batter or drive backe your answers which you have made to the Six Reasons which you say be theirs and yet neither this Scout nor the joyned nor the subjoyned forces shall be able to discover what strength is on my side although they be formed by you in battle aray Now I have proved the Independant Government to be Christs Government I will also prove in my Answers to these your following Reasons that the Independant Congregations performe Christs publike worship and therefore ought to be tolerated and maintained in the practise thereof IN the beginning of your first Reason against Toleration you grant that the Scriptures speake mâ—ch for Toleration and bearing with one another in many things both in matters of opinion and practise and the Scriptures you quote are very pertinent to this purpose but alwayes provided they are to be understood as spoken properly to particular Congregations and not unto any whole Nation But to stand for the Toleration of the maintenance of Heresie and Schisme is not the Toleration that we plead for as farre as hath beene yet made knowne but rather your insinuation for I have declared unto you already in the driving backe of the first Scout of your Army That God hath provided a way and meanes to purge every Congregation of his from all such persons that doe offend whether it be in matters of Faith or Order Neither doe any that stand for Christian liberty condemne them for cruelty or that it is against charitie For if we compare the Church with one man or a few then it will easily appeare that the one doth out-weigh the other â—nd you say Calvin saith It is cruell mercy which preferres one man or a few before the Church To these words of Calvin I doe fully agree unto for they are of the same nature with my former Answers to your Reasons against Independancie where I have proved against you that the weight and power Ireth in the Church and that the Church is above the Ministers and that the Ministers have their power by the Church to exercise in the Church
you Master Edwâ—rds would you have Magistrates and Kings and Princes to have more power over their subjects then over their bodies estates and lives would you have them be Lords over their consciences I pray you where must Christ reigne then Must he sit at the Magistrats footestoole and take what power the Magistrate will give him I meane spirituall power of gathering and making Churches and such Lawes as the Magistrate will give him leave to have to rule over them by Here you thrust Christ into a narrow corner for you would faine force him to give his glory to some other and his praise to some graven Image of your owne devising which he hath said he will not doe * But methinkes it were fitter for men of â—our coate to ground the Government of Christs Church upon 〈◊〉 written Word of God and not upon Statute Lawes nor Canon Lawes which you call Ecclesiasticall for it will be no disparagement to the Imperiall Crowne of this Realme for Christs Church to be governed by Christs owne Lawes The next thing is you say the Oath of Supremacie was appointed by Law for Ecclesiasticall persons to take Me thinkes that was a good consideration for Ecclesiasticall persons have beene in all ages ready to tyrannize over Kings and Emperours But now you aske the independant men as you call them a question but before you come to the question you lay downe an affirmation or a conclusion namely That these independant men give power to the Churches To which I answer If they should doe so they were very ignorant and very presumptuous for Christ hath given power to the Churches and all the Ministers that doe administer in the Churches must have the power by the Church But say you they give that power to the Churches which the Papists give unto the Pope I answer if they doe so they are blasphemers for the Papists acknowledge the Pope to be the head of the Church which title all men ought to give onely unto Christ But now to your question which is whether they will take the Oath of Supremacie or doe acknowledge in their prayers The King Defender of the Faith c. To which I answer This Ooth you say was ordained for Ecclesiasticall persons and I hope these Ecclesiasticall independant men if I may safely so call them will ever both acknowledge and maintaine that the King is supreme over all the Land therefore over the Church of the Land though it consist of the Clergie as it appeares by that Oath which you say was appointed for the Clergie But whether they doe acknowledge the King defender of the Faith c. which is the later part of your Question To this I answer It is out of all doubt that these men doe desire from their heart as well as all the Lords people that the King may defend the Faith of Christ Jesus and dayly make their prayers and supplications to God for him and that in conscience and obedience to God being commanded in his Word so to doe for they know it is a duty laid upon them for prayers and supplications must be made for Kings and all them that be in authoritie b but 〈◊〉 can make axceptable prayers but the Saints for the prayers of the wicked are abomination unto the Lord c But that all Kings have beene defenders of the Faith of Christ I deny for there is but one Faith * and those that do maintaine that true saith of our Lord Jesus Christ lawfully have that title given them and none other may lawfully have it but they You will happily say Queene Mary was not a Defender of the Faith But I say unto you if the Crowne of England give unto Kings and Queenes that title Queene Mary had as much right to the title as Queene Elizabeth c. Secondly you say they hold that the imposition of lawfull things doth make them unlawfull which you say is a strange paradoxe I answer the imposition of lawfull things doe not make them unlawfull if he that imposeth them have authoritie so to doe as for example the iâ—â—osition of an Oath is very lawfull but if it be imposed by him that hath not authoritie though it make not the Oath unlawfull simply in it selfe yet it makes the use of it unlawfull at that time both to him and to me But as for formes of prayer which you say they doe confesse to be for order and lawfull in themselves yet unlawfull being imposed I say not as you say they say for I know no forme of prayer lawfull in it selfe for any of the Lords people to tie themselves unto nor that ever was imposed upon any by Christ or his Apostles We reade in 1 Tim. 2. 1. 2. that all manner of prayers must be made unto God and amongst other supplications must be made for Kings but there was no forme of words given by which wee must pray for any and we are commanded to pray with the Spirit and to pray with understanding but we are commanded to avoid an evill manner of praying that we should not be like the Hipocrites which love to stand and pray in the Synogogues * nor that we should make vaine repititions as the Heathens which thinke to be heard for their much babling * and as also we are forbidden an evill manner of praying so wee are commanded by God what manner to use as it is plaine in Matth. 6. 9. The manner is that wee must in our prayers acknowledge God to be our Father And secondly That he is in heaven Thirdly we must give glory to his Name Fourthly we must pray for the coming of his Kingdome Fiftly we must pray that the Lords Will may be done both in earth and in heaven Sixthly wee must pray for all things necessary for this life which is there set forth under the name of dayly bread Seventhly wee must pray for the forgivenesse of our owne sinnes and we are also put in minde that as wee would have our owne sinnes forgiven so we should forgive others if they acknowledge their offences according to that in Luke 17 4 If thy brother trespasse against thee seven times a day and seven times a day end say it repenteth him c. Eightly we must pray against temptations to be delivered from the evills thereof And lastly we must conclude with thankesgiving acknowledging the Kingdome to be the Lords and all power and glory to be due unto him not onely for that present time but for ever Here you may see we are taught the manner how we ought to pray but we are tied to no forme of words yet we are to beleeve that this is a perfect Rule and that we may sufficiently ground all the petitions we neede to put up from this very rule As for Example As we desire to acknowledge God to be our Father so wee ought to desire that others would doe the like And whereas we ought
upon the sight of this Booke you shall conceive that I have either misconstrued your words or accused you without ground necessarily drawne from your owne speeches or that I have mistaken the sence of any Scripture that I have quoted in this Booke or that I have not answered you directly to the point by any oversight Then chuse you sixe men or more if you please and I will chuse as many and if you will we will agree upon a Moderator and trie it out in a faire discourse peradventure save you a labour from publishing your large Tractates which you say you intend to put out in Print against the whole way of Separation and if it can be made appeare that in any of these particulars I have missed it I will willingly submit But if you overcome me your conquest will not be great for I am a poore worme and unmeete to deale with you But if you doe give another onset before you accept of a parse seeing I have offered you conditions of peace the world will judge you an unreasonable man and you shall never have the day But if you will say your quarrell is only against those Ministers that justifie your Church and Ministry and worship and can prove that the Minsters of Holland and New England doe generally justifie the Church of England and the Ministery of the Church of England and the worship instituted by the Church of England I say if they thus far justifie you as I have here specified then will I freely acknowledge when I heare them speak it that I was mistaken concerning them yet the case in controversie stands still to be tried between you and me but I do otherwise conceive of them for the present because I am credibly informed that they doe generally and publikely renounce the power by which they were called to their office of Ministry in and by the Church of England some of them affirming that they have stood Ministers too long under such a false power others confessing here in publike that it was their sinne that they had not revealed so much to the people before they went away with many the like expressions which I can prove if wee come face to face which maketh it apeare to me for the present that though they preach in the Assemblies met together by publike authority yet they judge themselves to be Ministers sent of God to separate the precious from the vile and that though they have not an outward mediate calling seeing they have cast it off because it was false yet they have an inward immediate calling as all the Ministers of God had in former time which were able to unfould the Misteries of the Scripture though they had neither calling by man nor by the will of man but by the holy Ghost And I hope these men of whom I speake will never returne to serve God before the Idols nor preach for wages as Balaam did but still stand fast in the liberty wherein Christ hath set them Seeing they cave hast off the grievous yoke of Antichrist separating betweene the precious and the vile fitting men for the Lords building that so they may goe up to Ierusalem by troupes This is my charity towards them though I know them not by face and I thinke I may boldly say that none of them knowes me Esay 41. 21. Stand to your cause saith the Lord bring forth your strong reasons saith the King of Jacob Esay 5-8 Take counsell together yet it shall be brâ—ught to nought pronounce a Decree yet it shall not stand for GOD is with us FINIS * Deut. 32 â— 1 King â— 53. * Gen. 4 14. 15. 16. c Gen. 4. 3. d Mat. 24. 38. 39. 1 Pet. 3. 20. e Gen 7 1. f Ver. 21 22 23. g Gen. 12. 1. h Exo. 3. 7 8 9. 10. Chap. 6. 26. 27. i And 12 â—2 k Num 16. 12 13 14. l Ver. 21. 24 25 26. m Ver. 35. n Ver. 31 32 33. * Ver. 5. Deut. 5. 26. 27. * Deut. 28. 9. 10. Ezza 1. Hag. 1. 2 3. 4. 8. 12. 14. p Ier 51. 6. q Ier. 3. 12. Hos. 11 7. Christ made so great a difference betweene the world and the Church that hee would not pray for the world yet would die for the Church which was given him out of the world and without a Separation the Church can not be known from the world r Rev. 1. 3 s Rev. 18. 4. * Amos 7. 12. 13. * Gen. 10. 8 9. * Ecster 3. 8. 6 6. * Neh 6. â—â—â— 15. 19. Verse 13. 14 16. Compared with 1 Cor. 12. Matth. 1â— 15. 16. 17 Acts 15. 1. â—â— 1 Cor. 12. Act. 16. 1. 3. See the Answer to his second Reason against Independencie See Ezek. 43. 11. a Tit 3. 10. b Rev. 1. 20. Rev. 2. 20. c â— 2 Cor. 6. 14 15. 16. 17. d Rev. 14. 9 10 11. 12. e Chap. 18. 4. See the 3. 4 leafe of his Epistle Reason 1. Pag. 23. Pag. 23. * 1 Tim. 6. * For this see the Reply to his Answe to their third Reason for Toleration Pag. 29. * For this see his Book pag. 5 5. * Esay 4 2. 8. Pag. 30. liâ— 30. 31. b 1 Tim. 2. 1. 2. c Pro. 15. 8. * â—ph 4. 5. Pag. 31. lin. â—â— * Matth. 6. 5 * Ver. 7. 8. Matth. 6. 9. Ver. 10. Ver. 11. Ver. 12. Ver. 13. c Rom. 8. 15 d Ioh. 14. 26. * For this see the third part of his Answer to their second Reason against Toleration pag. 30. * 2 Tim. 3. 5. * For this see his fifâ— Reason against Toleration pag. 28. lin. 12. 13. Matth. 18. 15 16 17 18 19 20. Rev. 21. 27. and 22 14 15. * Pag. 34. Exod. 5. 17. * Pag. 34. * Gen. 45. 24. * Pro. 18. 19. * Gen. 50. 20. * 1 Ioh. 2. 19. * Ioh. 6. 66. 67. * I pray thee good Reader take notice that here I acknowledge an oveâ—sight in taking Mr. Edwards his eleventh Reason to be a second tenth Reason it was thâ—ough my neglect in not looking into his Errata * For thâ—t reade the Answer to his third Reason against Independancie * See the Reply tothe sixth part of his Answer to this their following Reasou Rev. 13. Whence the Church of England is derived Whence the Church of Rome is derived What the Image of the first beast is * In the Second Part of his second Reason against toleration pag. 24. In his sixth Reason against toleration pag. 29. and the third part of his Answer to their second Reason for toleration * Pag. 43. lin. 16 17. Rev. 7. Rev. 12. 11 * Pag. 45. * Rev. 12. 14 * Verse 16. * Pag. 46. li. â—â— Pag. 48. lin. 14. Pag. 48. lin. 20. * What it is that bred the Separates * Pag. 49. â— 9. 10. * Pag. 50. lin 23. 〈◊〉 lin. 29. * Cant. 1. 7. * Pag. 48. l. 23 24. * Acts â—â—â— 24. * Acts 6. 5. â— 10. * Ioh. 9. 31. Exod. 9. 29. 33. Pag 52. * When Stephen Gardiner harped upon unitie unitie yea Sir said Latimer but in Veritie not in Popery better is a Diversitiâ— â—â—â—â—â—â— Vnitie in Popery * Rev. 21. 27. Pag. 52. * Pag. 49. lin. 31. â— * Pag. 52. lin. 33. 34. * For this see his eigth Reason against Toleration pag. 32. lin. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. * Pag. 26. * Acts 8. 3. * Act. 22. 3â— * Ver. 2â— * Ver. 8. * Ver. 10. 1 Cor. 11. 1. â— Thes. 2. 7. â—or this see Reasons against Independancie pag. 5. lin. 12. â—â— * 1 Cor. 11. 23. * For this see his Book pag. 55. * Psal. 8â— 1. 6. * Acts 9. 4. 5.
1. 18. to which I send you to learne better Further you alleadge That if they be ordained it is by persons who are not in office Now if you meane they have no office because they are not elected ordained and set apart by the Clergie to some serviceable adminiâ—â—ation I pray you tell me who ordained the Apostles Prophets and Evangelists to their worke or Ministry If you will say they were ordained of God I will grant it and doe also affirme that God hath promised the supply of them to the end of the world as before hath beene mentioned from Ephe. 4. As also it appeares by Pauls charge to Timothy 2 Tim. 2. 2. That what things he had heard of him among many witnesses the same he should commit to faithfull men who should be able to teach others also but I verily doe beleeve that as Titus so Timothy heard of Paul that Elders must be ordained by Election in every city and that Titus was as much bound to communicate the things unto others which he had learned of Paul as Timothy was and Timothy we know was to teach faithfull men and those faithfull men were to teach others those things that they had heard of Timothy among which things Ordination was one as it was delivered to Titus and we are not to doubt of Timothius faithfulnesse in the declaring of this part of his message more than the rest but if those to whom Timothy delivered it were not faithfull in the discharge of their duty but that in due time the Ordinances might possibly grow out of use as the Churches did by little and little apostate yet that hinders not but that it was still written in the Scripture that the generations to come might recover againe the right use of the Ordinances when God should by his Spirit direct them to know the same Moreover I affirme that all the Lords people that are made Kings and Priests to God have a free voyce in the Ordinance of Election therefore they must freely consent before there can be any Ordination and having so consented they may proceede to Ordination notwithstanding they be destitute of the Counsell or assistance of any neighbour Church as if there were no other Churches in the Land but onely one company of beleevers joyned together in fellowship according to Christs institution The promise made in the 14th of Iohn 12. 13. is made unto them where Christ said The workes that he did they should doe â—sâ— that whatsoever they should aske in his name that he would do for theâ— that the Father may be glorified and that the Spirit of truth should â—â—ide with them for ever And that he should teach them all things and bring all things unto their remembrance as it is said in the following verses of the same Chapter This you may see is the portion of beleevers and they that have this portion are the greatest in the world and many of them are greater than one but many joyned together in a comely order in the fellowship of the Gospell according to the Scriptures are the greatest of all and therefore have power to ordaine and to blesse their Ministers in the name of the Lord Thus the lesser is blessed of the greater Now Mr. Edwards I hope you will confesse that you spake unadvisedly when you affirmed The maintenance of Independensie was the breaking of Gods Ordinance and violating of that Order and constant â—â—y of Ministers recorded in the Word To this I Answer that if the Church doe elect one he must be elected out of some more those that are not elected may be as able to blesse the Church in the name of the Lord as he therefore one of these who are not elected being chosen by the whole Church to blesse him in the name of the Lord whom the Church hath ordained is the hand of the whole who are greatest of all and so a sufficient Officer for that worke which hee is put a part to doe Thus you may see Mr. Edwards that we doe not hold Ordination extraordinary and temporary neither doe we hold it the least of Gods Institutions for we have respect unto them all But that nothing in matter of Order hath so cleare and constant a practise as this as you do affirme and also say the whole frame of Church and Discipline hath not so much ground in the word for it as this I deny and doe affirme that not onely this but all Gods Ordinances have as much ground and footing in Gods Word also Yet notwithstanding you say that Calvin confesseth that there is no expresse precept concerning the imposition of hands Hath the imposition of hands no footing in Gods Word and yet hath not all the forme of Gods Worship so much footing as it Here Mr. Calvin and you will now pin all the forme of Church and Discipline upon unwritten verities Further you rehearse confusedly the opinion of Zanchius to strenghen yours who say you would have the example of the Apostles and ancient Church to be more esteemed of and to be instead of a command I pray you how doe you know it to be their example if it be not written And whereas you alledge that Zanchius saith it is no vaine Ceremony but the holy Spirit is present to performe things inwardly which are signified by this Ordinance outwardly I have granted you that already where I affirme that the Church having the Spirit of God hath power by an instrument of her owne chusing to blesse the party to his worke in the name of the LORD and I am also bound to beleeve that God will accompany that his owne Ordinance which is performed by them outwardly with his owne Spirit inwardly to furnish the party so blessed by them with the knowledge of the Scripture which is able to furnish the man of God to every part of his duty And thus you may see that we have not departed from Christs way nor gone any other way in things concerning his House and Officers then he hath directed And whereas you demand for what cause Paul left Titus at Crâ—â—te I answer that I have told you before that it was to communicate the things unto others which hee had learned whereof Ordination was one And no doubt but hee declared the same to faithfull men that they might teach others also therefore he was there employed in preaching of the Gospell as well as if he had gone preaching with Paul The next thing you goe upon is the triall of the gifts of Ministers and this you attribute to them which have the greatest measure of the Spirit for you say Examination belongeth to the most skilfull and they who have most authority All these things are well allowed of by us for who hath a greater measure of the Spirit than beleevers and who hath more skill than he that hath beene trained up in the Schoole of Christ and hath learned this Lesson to be obedient to his Master Christ in keeping of
sixth Reason you affirme that the government of the Church by Synods is no where forbidden by God in the new Testament either directly or by consequence But I doe affirme the contrary and prove it thus That whatsoever Government is not commanded by God is accursed and that is plainely manifested in the New Testament Rev. 22. 18. But your government by Synods is not commanded by God and therefore it is accursed as it will appeare in the following discourse Whereas you say that all the Ministers are greater than one I have already proved that the Church of Christ is greater than all the Ministers You say Synods appoint no other office or Officer in the Church which Christ hath not appointed Me thinkes you are strangely put to your shifts that dare not tell the world what you meane by your Synods But if you meane the Councell or Convocation that used to sit at Pauls I have told you already they are none of the Councell of Christ neither hath he appointed that councell or any other councell to make or ordaine either Officers or Offices for his Church therefore so to affirme is blasphemie for he himselfe is their Lord and Law-giver and hath instituted every particular Ordinance in his Church that the Church hath neede of therefore it is as hath beene said already against the Law and light of nature and contrary to edification order peace purenesse lovelinesse for any to decree for or injoyne upon the Assemblies of the Saints any other practise but those that the Apostles have taught which they themselves had learned from the Lord Jesus but as for you Mr. Edwards it appeareth plainely that you doe not understand nor see the forme of the Lords House which causeth you to call upon any to produce a particular word or rule for the order of Gods worship what must be performed first what second what third what fourth and so of the rest and that no Ordinance and part of worship may be in another order Further you chalenge them if they can to shew a particular word or rule out of the New Testament for their Church Covenant which you say is the forme of the Church You also inquire for the forme of Excommunication and Ordination and gestures in the severall Ordinances of God And this you say they are not able to doe but onely in generall rules I have told you already that generall rules reach to every perticular and that is no more than you seeme to know already for you have confessed that there are generall rules to teach every one of these particulars which you could not chuse but acknowledge otherwise you would have made Christ not so faithfull in his house as Moses But the more you know the greater is your sinne in that you labour to turne away the light and you are still repairing of those thresholds which have beene set up by Gods thresholds If I had any hope therefore that you would be ashamed of all that you have done I would shew you though not all that I see yet what I am able to expresse of the forme of the house of God and the paterne thereof and the going out thereof and the comming in thereof and all the Ordinances thereof and the Lawes thereof and write it in your sight that so you may keepe the whole fa-shion thereof and all the Ordinances thereof and doe them As for the Ordinance of Election Ordination and Excommunication c. I have declared already the forme to them that have their eyes open to see it But they cannot see the forme of the house that have not repented them of the evills that they have done therefore I will cease to strive with such persons for they may live and stay long enough and be of no Church of Christ Thus much for your Sixth Reason IN your 7th Reason you say That consociation and combination in way of Synods is granted by themselves and you produce for your Authors these foure Christ on his Throne Examination of Prelates Petition Syons Prerogative Royal and the Protestation Protested which Authors if the Reader please to examine shall finaâ— cleare against you That which you have gathered here from these Authors is that they grant that one Church should be content that matters of difference and importance should be heard by other Churches as also to be advised and counselled by other Churches c. I answer though all should confesse that it is profitable to have the counsell of their brethren and neighbour Churches in doubtfull cases yet this will be farre from proving the lawfulnesse of your Synods as may appeare by the Authors that your selfe hath here alledged for they intend no such Consociation nor Combination which you have mentioned but seeing your selfe would have something which you cannot prove you would begge of others to grant it or prove it for you Concerning the Orders or Decrees of the Church of Ierusalem Acts 16. 4 they were not such Decrees as were alterable but such as were warranted by God and a perpetuall Rule for all the Churches of the Gentiles You neede not tell me what Amesius speaketh of the parts of Discipline as if any of the Separation held it to consist all in Excommunication for I have told you already that they have seene the forme of the Lords house and have respect unto all his Ordinances and doe not take one for all Neither is it granted you that admonitions and reproofès and decreeing of Excommunications should be by Officers of other Churches towards members of any Congregation though in the same constitution the contrary most evidently appeareth even by the practise of the Church of Antioch who brought the matter to the Church of Ierusalem which concerned the Church of Ierusalems members neither may any of the Churches now be subject to the censures of other Congregations except they must be subject to humane Ordinances but in case both the members and the Church be obstinate in any knowne sinne then are the Churches of God bound to admonish her and reprove her and reject her as if the Church of Antiochia had found the Church of Ierusalem all leavened with the Doctrine of Iustification by circumcision then had the Church of Antiochia power to admonish reprove and reject the Church of Ierusalem and not have communion with them if they persisted obstinate in that evill for the Church of Antiochia was not inferiour in power to the Church of Ierusalem Thus much for your seventh Reason IN the beginning of your Eight Reason you say they grant and confeâ—se That Churches of one constitution ought to withdraw from and â—enounce communion and fellowship with a Congregation or Church that is fallen into sinne as false Doctrine and evill discipline c. I answer I have granted you that in the conclusion of the answer to your 7dâ— Reason if the Church stand obstinace in sinne and will not be reclaimed But that they should be complained on to
and not the Church by the Ministers The next thing to be considered in this your Reason is your peremptory affirmation but grounded upon no Scripture namely That to set up Independant and separated Churches is a Schisme in it selfe and that it will make great disturbance in the Church both to the outward peace and to the faith and conscience of the people of the Kingdome Now that it is a Schisme in it selfe I deny and prove the contrary thus God hath commanded all his people to separate themselves from all Idolatry c and false worshipping d and false worshippers e and therefore it is no Schisme except you will make God the Author of Schisme this is according to the Prophet Esaiahs words Esay 1. which is the first Lesson that every one ought to learne even to cease to doe evill But I hope it will not be denied but that they are to learne another lesson which is to learne to doe well but to doe well is to keepe all Gods Commandements and to obey God rather then men Now Gods commands to his people is that they learne to know the forme of the house as I have told you before and all the Ordinances of the house and to doe them Ezek. 43. 11. but the Ordinances of Christs Kingdome under the Gospell amongst the rest are Doctrine Fellowship breaking of Bread and Prayer which Ordinances the Saints continued stedfastly in and are commended for their constancie in the same Acts 2. 42 and that in every particular Church or Congregation though there were divers in one Nation and yet I hope you will not affirme it was any disturbance to the Nation otherwise thâ—n Christ hath shewed shall ever be that the seed of the Serpent shall persecute the seede of the Woman for Gods people are said to be a peaceable people and the Lord himself hath said that he hath set them in the world as Lambs among Wolves Now there must needs be a disagreement betweene Lambes and Wolves but the Lambes are not the cause thereof By this you may see that Separation is not a Scisme but obedience to Gods Commandement And for any Magistrate to give way for men to separate from the worship of the Kingdome established by Law if that worship be not according to Gods Law is the Magistrates duty and the Magistrate shall partake of no sinne in so doing because there is no sinne committed Therefore the Magistrate ought not to forbid the practise of Gods Worship when hee hath power to command it for he is set up for the practise of those that doe well and for the punishment of evill â—oers And therefore you did well when you admonished the Parliament in your Epistle to cast out of the way all stambling blockes and to breake downe all Images and Crucifixes and to throw downe all 〈◊〉 and remove the High places and to breake to pieces the brazen Serpents which have beene so abused to Idolatry and Superstition So then you grant that much may be done as it seemeth by your speech and yet if there be not a full reformation even to the throwing downe of the High places it will prove a blemish to the reformers You say he that doth not forbid when he hath power he commands But I hope you doubt not but the Parliament hath power and therefore whatsoever they doe not forbid by your owne ground they have or doe command But in the Protestation they have not forbidden Gods Worship which is according to his Word but they have Protested and have injoyned others so to doe to maintaine and â—â—â—end the Protestant Religion expressed in the Doctrine of the Church of England against all Popery and Popish Innovations within this Realme c. And in the Interpretation of their meaning of the said Oath they binde us neither to the â—â—t forme of Worship Discipline or Government nor any Rites or Ceremonies of the said Church of England Now if we must withstand Popery and Popish Innovations then we must needs withstand such dependencie as makes up a whole Nation a Church both good and bad without separating the precious from the vile and also such Synods or Counsels that decree and make Lawes and impose them upon any Church to keepe having not the Word of God to warrant them for these are Popish Innovations and to be withstood by us according to our Oath And truely Mr. Edwards you might have asked the independant Ministers a question in private for you knew where to finde them and not have propounded so silly a question before the Parliament when there was none there to answer you Your Question is Whether it be fitting that well meaning Christians should be suffered to goe to make Churches To this I Answer It is fitter for well meaning Christians than for ill-meaning Christians for well-meaning Christians be the fittest on the earth to make Churches and to choose their Officers whether they be Taylors Felt-makers Button-makers Tent-makers Shepherds or Ploughmen or what honest Trade soever if they are well-meaning Christians but ill-meaning Priests are very unfit men to make Churches because what they build up with one hand they pull downe with the other Futuher you seeme to feare the sâ—reading of Heresies if there be not a biâ—drance of these Assemblies But you should rather feare that your owne glory would be eclipsed by their gifts and graces for they are not men of so meane parts as you would make them but are able to divide the Word of God aright by the spirit that God hath given them Therefore I would wish you rather to let your heart bleed for your selfe and for the evills that you have done For Christ will never suffer any to perish for whom he died Thus much for your first Reason IN your second Reason you say the Toleration desired will not helpe to beale the Schismes and Rents of your Church To which I answer that if your Church be not the Church of Christ it will not heale it indeede for though the Prophets would have healed Babel it could not be healed You say that Ministers and people will not submit to the Reformation and Government setled by Law It is very like so if it be not free from Innovations of Popery because they are sworne to the contrary But you say many doubts will arise in the peoples mindes that the Government of your Church is not ordered according to the Word of God To this I answer If you meane the Church of Englands Government established by the Canon Law I thinke it is out of doubt with the most for they that understand but little doe see and know that that Government is vaine and Popish and that is the reason as I conceive why so many refuse to conforme to it and if you feare that that will prove so great a division you may doe well to counsell the Magistrates to expell all such Government and to reject all such Synods and
Counsells and to labour to understand the minde of God and to set up his Government over Beleevers in the Kingdome of England And whereas you say that many of the people who yet be not in this Church way are possessed with these principles of the Independant way and much looking towards it I say it is pitty they should any longer be led about by the way of the Wildernesse 2. You doe affirme that the mindes of multitudes of Professors in England and especially in the City of London are upon all occasions very apt to fall to any way in Doctrine or discipline that is not commonly received by the Church I answer Indeede the Proverbe is verified upon them The burned child dreads the fire for they have beene so long deceived by your false glosses that now their eyes being a little open the light appeareth very sweete unto them yea although they see men but like trees as the blinde man when his eyes began to be opened who had beene blinde from his birth The third thing which you have laid downe in this Reason is That the Ministers will not be tied from preaching those points in publike nor from speaking of them in private To which I answer I hope they will not indeed for it were their great sinne if they should not declare Gods whole Councell so farre as he hath revealed it unto them But if they would you say the people both men and women are sâ— strangely bold and pragmaticall and so highly conceited of their way as the Kingdome of Christ and the onely way of Christ that out of those principles they would be drawing many of their friendship and kindred and many would say you come unto them I answer that this I hope you count a vertue for it is the property of the Sheepe when they fare well to call their fellowes But Hogges will not doe so The fourth thing to be minded is that you say Liberty the power of government and rule to be in the people are mighty pleasing to flesh and blood especially in meane persons and such as have beene kept under To which I answer that they that have beene kept under have beene kept under by the tyranny of the Man of Sinne This you confesse to be especially the poore upon whom those Taskemasters have laid the greatest burthens Therefore for them to affect liberty is no wonder And whereas you say they would have the power and Rule I answer It is not any power or Rule which is pleasing to the flesh as you speake thinking them to be like those Priests Whose god is their belly whose glory is their shame who minde earthly things but it is the power of Christ which they stand for as they are members of the Churches of Christ to which Churches Christ the King thereof hath given all power in spirituall things And that the Church of Christ consisteth of meane persons is no wonder for wee have learned that the poore receive the Gospell and you know you have granted that it stands with the light and Law of Nature That the liberty power and rule should be in the whole and not in one man or a few so that the power must rest in the body and not in the Officers though the Church be never so poore Now the fifth thing you minde in this Reason is That Tolleration will be made use of to strengthen their way And you also conclude it will be granted that the ablest Ministers could not answer them and therefore were content they should have a Tolleration You doe very well to feare the worst but you had done better if you had armed your selfe against them and answered the Scriptures they bring by Scripture But it is a plaine case you could not do that therfore your feare was just but if you were a wellminded man or a wellmeaning Christian man you should not have feared the comming of the truth to light nor have been afraid of reformation because it would worke to your greater divisions and rents for Christ came not to set peace upon the earth as I have told you before but the seede of the Serpent will be ever playing his part Thus much for your second Reason IN your third Reason you affirme That Tolleration will breed divisions and Schismes disturbing the peace and quiet of Churches and Townes I answer I have told you already we plead for no tolleration that shall disturbe the peace of Churches or Townes Moreover you say it will not onely doe so but it will also breed divisions in families betweene husband and wife brother and brother To which I answer There was a division in the first Family that ever was and brother rose up against brother but Tolleration was not the cause of it but the malice of Sathan in the seed of the Serpent as it hath beene and is now at this day And this is according to Christs words Luke 12. 52 53. which saith That there shall be five in one house two against three and three against two c. and in Matth. 10. 34 35 36. Thinke not saith he that I come to send peace into the earth I came not to send peace but the sword For I am come to set a man at variance against his father and the daughter against her mother and the daughter in Law against her mother in Law and a mans enemies shall be they of his owne household and moreover in Luke 21. 16. our Saviour doth declare that we shall be betrayed both by parents and brethren and kinssolkes and friends Now if Christ may be said to be the Author of evill then you may say that Toleration of true Religion is the cause of this division Againe you say O how this will occasion disobedience To this your Lamentation I answer O that you would remember the rule * that every servant ought to count his Master worthy of all honour and in the judgement of charitie beleeve that persons professing the Gospel will learne that lesson Next you say O! how will this take away that power authority which God hath given to Husbands Fathers and Masters over wives children and servants To this I answer O! that you would consider the text in 1 Cor. 7. which plainly declares that the wife may be a beleever the husband an unbeleever but if you have considered this text I pray you tell me what authority this unbeleeving husband hath over the conscience of his beleeving wife It is true he hath authority over her in bodily and civill respects but not to be a Lord over her conscience and the like may be said of fathers and masters and it is the very same authority which the Soveraigne hath over all his subjects therfore it must needes reach to families for it is granted that the King hath power according to the Law over the bodies goods and lives of all his subjects yet it is Christ the King of Kings that reigneth over their
consciences and thus you may see it taketh away no authority which God hath given to them The next thing you say is that they cannot be certaine that their servants and children sanctifie the Lords day To which I answer that indeede unbeleeving Masters take as little care of this as they that have given liberty to prophane the Lords Day but beleeving Parents and Masters may easily know if their children or servants be of any Congregation what their life and conversation is and therefore this can hinder no duties or workes of Families as you falsely affirme nor crosse the good and peace of Familes By this you may see that this your groundlesse affirmation is no good Reason against Toleration And therefore the Court of Parliament to whom you submit for judgement may easily see that good members both for Churches and Common-wealths may issue out of such Families that live under Christs government and that such Families may be good Nurseries both for Church and Common-wealth Thus much for your third Reason IN your fourth Reason you doe affirme that there will be great danger of disputes amongst you about Government and Worship and Doctrine and practises in the Conclusion you say it will be about a question where Saints goe when they die whether to heaven or a third place I Answer This is a question I never heard amongst the Separates or any of those whom you call Independant men but amongst the Papists of Rome and England The next thing is about sitting with hats on to breake bread I Answer this may be a question indeed but not to breede division for it may be as lawfull for one man to sit covered another uncovered as it may be lawfull for one man to receive it sitting and another lying in bed But if any man list to be contentious the Churches of God have no such custome Thus much for your Fourth Reason IN your fifth Reason you affirme that the Ministers of the Kingdome can have little assurance of the continuance of their flockes to them if such a toleration be granted but that the tolerated Churches will admit them into fellowship and increase Churches out of their labours and that they should doe little else but spend and be spent To this I answer that if you were the Ministers of Christ as you would be taken to be it might be your comfort joy and glory for it was the Apostles worke to gather the Saints and to travell in birth of children and they did not grudge that they were added unto the Churches of Christ but tooke care for them being so added for the care of all Churches lay upon them and therefore they were as Fathers and Nurses unto them and the Gospell admits of no such theft as to steale away members from other Churches but if men draw neere to the truth which never were members of any Church and offer themselves to joyne unto us we may admit them upon good experience of their life and conversation for those members that travelled from one Church to another were commended unto those Churches by Letters from the Church where they were members or else they could not have beene admitted and thus you may see the way of the Gospell admits of no such disorder Now whereas you say that this Toleration upon any light occasion of demanding dues or preaching against any thing they like not opens a wide doore and will invite them to disert their Ministers I answer by demanding of that which you call dues you may indeede give just occasion for you may demand for due that which is not due as all the Priests of England doe Likewise by preaching of Doctrine you may give just occasion if you justifie the wicked and condemne the just and make sad the hearts of those whom God would not have made sad and then if your people flye from you you may thanke your selves but concerning what you count to be your due I will declare hereafter * Thus much for your fifth Reason NOw in the beginning of your sixth Reason you say that liberty will be an undoubted meanes and way of their infinite multiplication and increase even to thirty fould Truely I thinke you are afraid as Pharaoh was least the Lords people should grow mightier then you Next you say if the Parliament could like to have more of the breede of them and have a delight to have multitudes exempted from the Ecclesiasticall Lawes of the Land c. I answer it is no disgrace to the Parliament if they should so delight though never Parliament before had done the like Moreover you say they have increased within this nine moneths without a toleration therefore you conclude they would multiply much if they had a toleration in many if not in most Townes and Parishes and â—ou say it cannot be helped All this I grant may be although they have not a Toleration I thinke they will increase for the Taskemasters can lay no heavier burthens upon them then they have laid already but though they should increase it will not be unprofitable for the increase of beleevers will be the strength and glory of the Kingdome for they will in all lawfull things be subject to the Kings Majestie their dread Soveraigne and to all the wholesome Lawes of his Land and therefore it will be no danger to have as you say swarmes of them Thus much for your Sixth Reason IN your 7th Reason you affirme that it will be very preâ—udiciall dangerous and insufferable to this Kingdome for Saints two or three or more to gather and combine themselves in Church Fellowship having one â—â— power from Christ their immediate heade without expecting warrant from any Governors First whereas you say it will be prejudiciall I answer It can prejudice none in the Kingdome except it be the Priests and it will be but of a little tithes which they dare not in conscience pay because those Iewish Ceremonies are ceased and if they have not Toleration that will be all one in that respect for they will rather suffer then doe any thing against conscience Now whereas you say it will be dangerous and insufferable to the Kingdome both these I deny for if they were offensive people two or three or a few could doe but little hurt But they have beene proved to be a peaceable people and the suffering of such hath never beene dangerous to any Nation but the not suffering of such to live quietly in a Land or to passe quietly thorow a land hath brought Judgements upon such Lands Now whereas you seeme to imply that they should aske leave of the Magistrate to gather and combine themselves into visible Churches c. I answer I doe not reade that any ever asked leave of the Magistrate for such a thing nor to performe any of the parts of Gods Worship or Discipline and yet you confesse that these independant men doe petition to the Parliament for liberty * Now I pray
to pray for the Kingdome of God to come we are not to limit it to this that Christ may come to rule in us onely but that-he may rule as a King in the heart of all his chosen Neither ought wee alone to acknowledge praises but wee ought to desire that prayses to God may be acknowledged by others also and that they may grant the Kingdome and power and glory to be his not that he should be a King onely to rule in the hearts of men but also that he may rule and governe the actions of the bodies of men in his outward worship as we are commanded to glorifie God with our bodies and soules and the reason is because they are his 1 Cor. 6. 20. Now if our bodies and soules be Gods then it must needs be granted that it is in spirituall worship for in all civill things it hath beene acknowledged already that both bodies and lives are our soveraigne Lord the Kings in whose Land we dwell Now if there were any forme of prayer for men to bind themselves unto it would have beene shewed either in this Scripture or in some other which thing you have not yet proved That they were not tied to this forme of words is plaine by another Evangelist which doth not use the same words but addeth some and leaveth out other some and also the whole forme of thankesgiving is left out by Luke Luke 11. 2. 3. 4. Compared with Matth. 6. 9. and to seeke the helpe of any booke but the Bible to teach men to pray is to disable God which hath promised to give Beleevers his Spirit whereby they shall cry Abba Father c and that that Spirit should leade them into all truth and bring all things to their remembrance d Therefore a forme of prayer for men to tie themselves unto cannot be sufficient and pleasing to God though it were never imposed by any Thirdly you lay another slander upon us as though we should affirme that Christian Princes and Magistrates who are defenders of the Faith have no more to doe in and about the Church then Heathen Princes This is not true for we know that Christian Princes and Magistrates ought to be members of Christs Church and so being they may be Officers in the Church And if they be Defenders of the Faith they be such as defend the pure worship of God manifested in his Word as also the true professors thereof and that against all tyrannicall power that shall attempt to suppresse either it or them as the good Kings of Judah and Israel did by slaying the Servants and Prophets of Baal who had slaine the Lords people But Heathen Kings cannot be said to be members of the Church of Christ before they know Christ and then they become Christian Kings Therefore to vent upon all occasions such principles as you see wee hold and maintaine is not as you say dangerous and insufferable neither are the people But you say further that the people for a great part of them are heady and refractory and proud and bitter and scornfull and dispisers of authoritie and that they will not suffer publike prayers to be prayed but that by their gesture and threatning of the Ministers they have laboured to hinder the use of them And these people I gather from your owne words are the professors in England and especially in the city of London and it is very like to be so because they were there at the time of your service for neither the Separates nor Semiseparates as you call them use to be there at the time of your service for ought I know and these Professors you have also called Idle busibodies tatlers also as it is said 1 Tim. 5. 13. very wanton in their wits say you affecting novelties in Religion and liking of points that are not established nor commonly held and these you say are many of the professors * And in your second Reason against Toleration Pag. 24. you say that the mindes of multitudes of the Professors in England and especially in this citie are upon all occasions very apt to fall to any way in Doctrine or Discipline that is not commonly received by the Church c. But I tel you you ought not to blame any for withstanding any thing in Gods worship which is not grounded in his Word Neither if the whole body of the worship there tendred be the invention of man ought any of them to be blamed for opposing such a worship because it is according to their Protestation Yet I justifie none that will oppose disorderly as either by casting up of hats or threatning the Minister or any the like unseemely behaviour for I judge it better for them to depart in peace if they have not faith in the action performed But methinkes Mr. Edwards you have foulely missed it in that you have thus vilified your brethren to call them by the names of those mockers which Paul testified should come in the last time that should be heady and high minded and proud boasters and dispisers of authority for such as these have not the power of godlinesse and by this you make your Church a foule Church and defile shrewdly your owne nest and make it appeare to all men that you live in a Cage of uncleane birds therefore you are commanded from such to turne aside * if the feare of God be in your heart Moreover You say you feare they will not tolerate the Government established by the Ecclesiasticall and civill Lawes and you would faine father the cause of this your feare upon Separates and Independancie whereas you cannot be so ignorant but that you must know that the government established by Law may stand without the leave of Separates for they have neither power to give toleration nor to prohibit toleration for or against any thing But you say you would rather pray against toleration than prophesie of the wofull effeâ—ts of it I answer if you can make such a prayer in a time acceptable then sometimes such prayers will be accepted which are not grounded upon Gods Word But of the wofullest effects of toleration you have prophesied already in that you say they will withstand your Doctrine and your dues * and that will be a wofull effect indeede when you shall be driven to cry out Alas alas that great city Babylon for in one houre is so great wealth come to desolation Thus much for your Seventh Reason IN your Eight Reason you affirme That these Independant men where they have power as in New-England will not tolerate any Churches or Government but in their owne way In using the word these you carry the matter so darkely that I know not whom you meane for you have named none But you seeme to say they be men that have power in New England I answer Indeede it may happen to be so That there may be some men there that take upon them authority to binde mens consciences
as you and all your fellowes do here But if it have beene so I thinke it was because they had here in England taken upon them an oath of conformity as you have sometimes done and because the tyranny of the Prelats was so mighty against all good men that they were faine to go away privately and so had not time or opportunity publikely to disclaime this their Oath and then there might be feare that upon complaint made for disorder committed there in suffering the liberty of the Gospel there which could not be admitted here they might have beene sent for backe by their Ordinaries and so have been committed to some stincking prison here in London there to have beene murdered as divers of the Lords people have beene of these late yeares as I am able to prove of my owne knowledge and if they have banished any out of their Parents that were neither disturbers of the peace of the Land nor the worship practised in the Land I am perswaded it was their weakenesse and I hope they will never attempt to doe the like But I am still perswaded they did it upon the same ground that having knowledge in themselves that their former Oath might be a snare unto them if they did not hold still some correspondencie with the practise of England even till God should open a way or meanes for them to seeke free liberty for all by the approbation of authority The next thing you minde against them is that they would not admit liberty to some of their brethren which were godly Ministers though they did approve of them as being against Ceremonies To this 1. I answer that it is strange that any man should send to aske their liberty 2. It is much more strange to me if it be true as you say that these men were against Ceremonies that there should be any difference betweene them and the Ministers in New England But it seemes by your speech they would have gone in a middle way which presupposeth to me that they are so farre from being against Ceremonies that are already invented that they would have set up some invention of their owne The next thing you charge some of them with is That they would not admit into fellowship those that would not enter into their Covenant and professe faith and submit to their Church Orders though they would be of their Church Me thinkes you have strange evasions but I pray you answer me to these two questions the first is how men of yeares of discretion may by the rule of Gods Word be admitted into fellowship and not professe their faith Secondly how men may be accounted to be of the Church and not submit unto the orders of the Church Seeing that the Apostle Paul had these two things to rejoyce in the beholding of the Saints stedfast faith and comely order in the Church But you say that these men who would faine have a toleration in this great kingdome will not allow any in their small particular Congregations Truely Mr. Edwards It were good for you to labour to understand the minde and will of God for your selfe and have charitie towards your brethren and hope well that they have so much knowledge of the Lords will that they will not pleade for such an absurdity as to set up one Church within another and so make a schisme But the Toleration they plead for is that Gods true worship may be set up in the Kingdome by those that understand what it is and that by the sufferance of the Governors and that it should be setled in a peaceable way which would be farre from disturbing the peace of three Kingdomes as you invectively speake but to set up a Congregation in a Congregation would be confusion even as to set up one Kingdome within another The next thing you charge them with is that they are partiall by a supposition of your owne for you say it is ordinary for men when they are not in place nor have no power in Church or Common-wealth and hold also Doâ—rines and principles contrary to what is held and established to pleade for Toleration but when the same men come to have place and power say you they will not tolerate others and you say that you doe beleeve that these are the men which now indevour a toleration To this I answer you may doe well to let this beleefe of yours be no Article of your faith because it stands upon no ground for though a man may hope the best and feare the worst yet he may beleeve nothing but what he hath proofe for But I doe beleeve that all this is your evill surmising to think that if they had power in their hands to settle a Government they would tolerate none but their independant way as it may plainely appeare by the Protestation Protested which you quote here for your Author for though the Protestor declare what he would have for the Churches of the Saints yet he doth not take upon him to determine what Government or rule shall be set up in the Land to bring men out of darkenesse to light but leaveth that to the judgement of them which have the power even the King and Parliament Thus much for your Eight Reason IN your ninth Reason you affirme that toleration may he demanded upon the same grounds for Brownists Anabaptists and Familists and others who professe it is their conscience To which I answer That seeing you plead for them I may well hold my peace But I thinke the Familists will not aske liberty for toleration if they be as I doe conceive of the Sect of the Libertines mention in the Acts But say you these may be pleaded for upon better grounds then Semi-Separates and the Reason you say is because they deny the truth of your Church Answer I do beleeve those whom you call Semi-Separates do deny the truth of your Church also though not in all respects and so farre as they be Separates they must needs deny the Church from which they Separate But you here demand whether Papists may not petition and have hope for toleration seeing it is their conscience To this I answer I know no reason why they may not petition and hope to speede also seeing they have many friends in the Kingdome Further you adde that if one sort may have an exemption from the Religion established why not others I answer There may be many reasons given why those may not have freedome of any great resorts in the Land which have often attempted by plots and treachery to ruinate the Land The next thing you affirme is if ever the doore of toleration should be but a little opened there would be great crowding in To this I answer That the more good men doe imbrace the whole truth of God the better it will be but there have beene too many crowders and creepers in in all ages and we may justly feare it will be so still for the Text saith in
the 2 Pet. 2. 2. That many shall follow their destruction and some of them shall doe it through covetousnesse who shall with fained words make merchandise of the Lords people as is plaine in the next verse whose destruction sleepeth not But who these creepers in be appeares by the 15. verse of this Chapter That they were they that loved the wages of unrighteousnesse as Balaam did But if any one so doe his last end shall be worse ' then his beginning Thus much for your ninth Reason IN your Tenth Reason you affirme That the first principle of the Independant way is That two or three Saints wheresoever or by what meanes soever they doe arise separating themselves from the world into the fellowship of the Gospell are a Church truely gathered for this you quete Mr. Robinsons Iustification pag. 221. But in that page there is no such thing written as I can finde but seeing it commeth so neere the truth we neede not to contend about it For I doe affirme that a company of Saints Separated from the world and gathered into the fellowship of the Gospell by what meanes so ever it be that matters not so it be by the teaching of the Sonne of God according to that in Heb. 1. 1. these Saints I say separating themselves and being gathered into the fellowship of the Gospell though they combine themselves without the warrant of the Governours are a true Church and have right to all Gods Ordinances not onely to admit men into fellowship but also to admonish to reprove and to cast out of their societie all obstinate offenders amongst them that doe transgresse either against the first or second Table having as hath beene said before the Spirit of God to guide them and wisedome from above to judge of persons and causes within the Church though they have nothing to doe to judge those that are without And this doth not make way for Libertisnime for Heresies and Sectaries as you say neither doth it make men to runne from their owne Ministers because they restraine them from sinne or keepe them to Gods Ordinances as you doe affirme for if any separate for any such cause they shall not be received into fellowship nor justified of any of the Lords people But the way of the Gospell as hath beene plainely proved is not to live without Gods Ordinances nor to live at liberty as you say except you meane the liberty wherein Christ hath set them and commanded them to stand fast because he hath made them free Gal. 5. 1. By this you may see the Saints are called into liberty but not a liberty to sinne as you would insinuate but to be freed from the yoake of bondage which is the tyranny or tyrannicall government of the Canon Lawes either of Rome or England But you say all heretickes Sectaries or libertines will count themselves Saints as well as the Independant men and the reason you seeme to give for this is because the Ministers and Magistrats of the Kingdome shall not have power to determine who be Saints * Now let all men judge what a weighty argument this is who is he that knows any thing knows not this that the Priests in England which are the Bishops creatures do generally justifie the wicked and condemne the just and are not these meet men to judge Saints they justifie none that will not be conformable and yeeld unto the traditions which they have invented in their Councels and Convocations though they have not one title of Gods Word to warrant them Furthermore they condemne all that will not submit to their devised worship even in all the traditions thereof and this is the dependancie which they have brought all men unto both high and low even to be subject to their wills which is a Law But now touching the Magistrate you would seeme to inferre that he should have no more power than a Priest It is plaine the Priests have no power but what they have by permission and sufferance though they have dependancie upon the Pope himselfe but the Magistrate hath power given him of God by whom he is set up for the praise of those that doe well and for the punishment of evill doers and hath the same rule given him whereby to judge them that God hath given to his Church especially Christian Magistrates notwithstanning they are opposed yet they have power given of God as you may reade in Acls 7 35. This man Moses whom they forsooke saying who maâ—e thee a Prince and a Iudge the same God sent for a Prince and a deliverer and this is he which was as a God unto Aaron when Aaron was as the mouth of Moses to the people Exod. 4. 16. Now if you Priests could have proved your selves as Aaron then you might have beene assistants to Godly Magistrates to deliver the Lords people out of the hands of Tyrannicall Princes but contrariwise you adde afflictions as Pharaohs Taskemasters did even you Mr. Edwards when you say the Lords people are wanton-witted and idle when they desire to have liberty to serve God And thus you sit in the consciences of men judging zeale to be hypocrisie but the time will come when every worke shall be brought to judgement And now drawing neere to an end of this Answer to your tenth Reason which is the last of this your joyned army it is good to looke backe a little and consider what hath beene said You have spoken much for Dependencie but upon whom you doe depend I cannot tell You labour to bring men into doubts by your suppositions but you doe not make any conclusion which is Gods way that men fearing God may expect a blessing when they walke in it but you cry out for Dependencie upon Councels and Synods and Churches I pray you what Dependencie hath the Church of England upon any other Church for I suppose you will say that all the Land is but one Church If you say that you have Dependencie upon the Church of Rome I doe beleeve you for the Bishop of Canterbury hath said so much in his booke where hee confesseth Rome to be as leprous Naaman and England to be the same Naaman cleansed Now that it is the same may easily be proved by divers of your owne Authors But you in your Epistle affirme it is not cleansed in that place where you say that there is yet Altars and Images brasen Serpents abused to Idolatry with divers other things which you would have purged out By this it appeares that it is the same with Rome in the very nature of it though not in every Circumstance and this for any thing can be discerned is the Dependancie for which you pleade even the Dependancie and affinitie betweene Rome and England Therefore you should rather have said That in the belly of this Dependancie doth lurke all liberty and heresie and whatsoever Sathan and the corrupt hearts of men have a pleasure to broach For in that
by the Canon Laws consisting of Archbishops Diocesan Bishops with all the rest of that erew for this is indeed both your Church and Ministry which doth appeare by your owne ground because you affirme that in this part lieth all the power but by your owne grounds the whole body of the Land I meane of the Laitie as you call them hath no power at all to reforme any abuse therfore this Clergy must needs be your Church and thus you make your selves the head and body and all the rest of the Land the â—ayle to follow after you Now if you can prove this to be a true Church which hath neither ground nor footing in Christs Testament you will worke wonders but indeede such wonders have been wrought by you for all the world hath wondered and runne after the beast saying Who is like unto him and who is able to make warre with him as you may plainely see in the 13. of the Reveation Therefore they that doe justifie such a Church are such as have beene deceived by her false miracles even by the fire which she hath made to come downe from heaven I pray you did not fire come downe from heaven in Queene Maries time and devour the Saints in Smithfield if you understand heaven in that place as I understand it to be the seate of the Magistrate you must grant the same for they are called Gods and the children of the most high For your forefathers did as Pilaâ— did wash their hands from the blood of the Saints and of the innocent and turned them over for their sentence of condemnation to the Secular power which you made your hornes and your heads pushed them forward to execute your bloody cruelty and thus you may see that fire came downe from heaven in the sight or apprehension of men for most that beheld it thought it was just because it was the sentence of the Magistrate And by this all men may see that you of the Clergie are the Church of England and that this Clergy came from Rome and that therefore your Church is derived from Rome Now if you would know whence the Church of Rome was derived I conceive that her power was derived from the beast with seven heads which rose up out of the sea as you may read of in the thirteenth of the Revelations for there both those beasts are mentioned and also the Image of the first beast which the second beast hath caused to be made which is even here in England amongst us and you may see I have proved unto you already what it is as you may also read in the 15. verse of that Chapter it was that to whom the beast gave a spirit and also he gave it power that it should speake and cause as many as would not worship the Image of the beast to be killed and hath not this Image caused aboundance to be killed in England and hath not he caused all to receive his marke or his name or the number of his name and they that have it not may neither buy nor sell as it is apparant by the testimonie of the Scripture it selfe and wofull experience And is not this Image the Church that now you â—leade for which consisteth of all the Priests of England if it be not I pray you tell me what it is But if this be it as it appeares it is then these are your Ministers also and then it hath beene proved plainely whence this your Church and Ministry came And that any of understanding should grant this Church and Ministry to be a true Church and Ministery would bewray great ignorance in them Further you adde that they acknowledge the Ordinances to be true In this I doe beleeve you upon your bare word for it is a truth if you meane Gods Ordinances which you have amongst you As first you have the Scripture but you wring it and wrest it according to your owne devices and make of it a nose of waxe and a leaden rule to leane which way your minde leadeth you and though you ought to take that reede or rod in your hand at all times if you were Gods messengers to measure both the Temple and the Altar and the worshippers Rev. 11. 2 yet you have not learned that skill for your Church and Ministrie holdeth no correspondencie with that measuring line but contrariwise you have taken that golden cup and filled it full of abominations â—ay you have hacked it and mangled it to peeces and made it into little lessons which you call your Epistles and Gospells they are Dedicated to your Saints upon your Saints-Dayes and thus you may see though you have the Scriptures which is the Word of God and take upon you to unfold the mysteries thereof yet in stead of that you darken the truth by false glosses Secondly you have the Sacraments even baptisme and breaking of breade but you pervert them both to your owne destruction neverthelesse they still remaine Gods Ordinances even as the golden vessells were Gods vessels when they were in Babel though Belsâ—azar made them his quaâ—â—ing boules yet still they remained to be Gods vessels Even so did Circumcision remaine Gods Ordinance though it was with Ieroboâ—â— The like may be said of Baptisme it still remaines Gods Ordinance though it be carried away with backâ—sliding Antichristians even the Apostate fallen stats and so you may read in the eleventh of the Revelation ver. 2. that the court must be left out and be unmeasured and the reason was because it was given to the Gentiles even to them that should tread downe the holy citie for 42. monethes this court we know belonged to the Temple as you may read in the 42. of Ezekiel and had in it the Ordinances belonging to the people And although you have Baptisme and the Lords Supper they will not sanctifie you though they may be sanctified to the use of them amongst you which are Gods people according to the election of grace And though you have some of Gods Ordinances amongst you yet you have added unto them many Ordinances of your owne devising which doth utterly debarre the Lords people which have knowledge of them from communicating with you in any worship As for example How shall any man partake with you of the word preached in your assemblies but he must needs partake also with the false calling of the Priest by which it is preached for none else are suffered to preach amongst you by your leave or approbation but they that preach by that false power And who shall receive the Sacraments with you and not justifie your devised Service-booke for all your things are administred by that And as all the Lords Ordinances ought to be sanctified by the Word of God and prayer So on the contrarie you labour to sanctifie your things by the stinted service-booke and therefore the withdrawing from you may be answered to God Further you beare the world in hand that you
have but something amongst you wanting yet that were to be desired and therefore you say there is no cause to leave the Kingdome nor for private men to set up true Churches Answer Indeed If your Church Ministers could be proved true which you see is a thing unpossible then it had beene needlesse as you say to leave the Land but neither is your Church nor Ministers true nor can the Ordinances be had amongst you without sinne and that this is the judgement of the Independant men is plaine by your former confession Where you affirme they will not heare of growing into one body or communicating with you before a Reformation neither submit to your Classes or Presbyters as Jure Divino But in the next place you say the setting up of devided Churches would be to the scandall of all the Churches and not the giving of scandall to one brother but to tenne thousands of Congregations Truely Mr. Edwards you overshoote yourselfe in that you make your selfe such an apparant dissembler for you would make men beleeve that you desire to keepe your Church and brethren unspotted and yet you your selfe with your owne tongue have most foulely scandalized the chiefe members of your Church making them so foule a people that they ought not to be communicated with * Further your words imply that so long as a man is not put upon the practise of that which is unlawfull he may beare I tell you againe that your whole manner is unlawfull and therefore all the Lords people as they desire to be blessed and to be found walking in Gods waves have cause to separate from your Church and to practise Gods Ordinances among themselves as well as they who are separated already which you here you call Brownists and the grounds and causes be so great that they may well be justified But you would have conscious men to consider Mr. Robinson concerning circumstantiall corruptions you say he shewes it is not an intolerable evill for evill men be suffered in the Church c. yet you confesse he affirmes it to be an evill Two things are here to be minded First that you would still please your selfe with this that you have a true Church though corrupted which hath beene proved contrary Secondly that you would justifie your Church by the sinnes of others But you know what Mr. Robinson saith That the government instituted by Christ is not onely neglected or violated in the Church of England but the plaine contrarie to it is established by Law But you say now supposing your Reformation it will be otherwise with England then when he writ But you may see it is verie plaine that the crueltie and wickednesse of the Church of England hath increased ever since that time You say there is but something neglected and you would make it the want of some Law to suppresse evill men To which I answer That your Canon Lawes be evill Lawes and your Lawmakers evill men and therefore it could not stand with their principles to make Lawes to suppresse evill men Thirdly you say that they whom you call Independant live in and are members of such Churches and yet they thinke it unlawfull to forsake them I pray you have any of them told you that their Churches be like the Church of England you must make proofe thereof for in this I will not take you upon your bare word Further you say they want some parts of Government and Officers appointed by Christ more matertally than will be in your Church upon a Reformation I answer I have plainely proved to you that Christs Church hath his Government and Officers but your Church hath neither Christs Government nor Officers But what it will be upon the Reformation I cannot tell But you say they must want the Ordinances or else they must have them with instruments without ordination I answer This is untrue as hath beene proved at large in the answers to one of your former Reasons against Independancie But you say you would have them heare with the defects in your Church and waite till God give you more light I answer I know noâ—e that interrupteth you for wee will neither meddle with your Idols nor with your Gods if you would but suffer us to worship our God after the way that you call heresie The next thing you say is that they tell you that something may be omitted for a time and that affirmatives binde not alwayes and that the exercise of Discipline may be forborne for a time when it will not be for edification to the Church but for destruction and therefore you question them for not incorporating themselves into your Church though something were more there to be desired yet you say there will be nothing contrary put upon them nor quite another thing Now that something may be omitted for a time that may plainely appeare for a man that hath brought his gift to the Altar and there remembreth that his brother hath ought against him must leave the offering of his gift and goe and be reconciled to his brother Matth. 5. 23. 24. Now that affirmatives binde not alwayes is plaine for they binde not alwayes in cases of impossibility but in such cases God accepteth the will for the deede Further whereas you say the excellencie of discipline may be forborne for a time when it is not for Edification of the Church but for destruction I say true discipline being rightly used is alwayes for the edification of the Church and never for destruction And whereas you affirme that there is nothing contrary put upon us by you or quite another thing I answer wee know you have none of Gods Ordinances without some other thing to accompany them Fourthly you say that they may safely be members of your Church in the Reformation of you I answer You might well have spared this your vaine repetition till you had obtained a Reformation But the Reason you have heard alleadged for their first going away granted in a letter from Rotterdam that reason still remaines though you say it is ceased and will remaine till the Reformation you have formerly promised But say you that practise they judge themselves tied to is founded upon a false principle namely that the power of government is given by Christ to the body of the Congregation I answer I have told you before in the reply to the second part of this your answer to their third Reason I now tell you againe that you make your Priests the head and body both but Christ hath given the power to the Church which is his body by whose power every Officer and member thereof doth move and doe their severall Offices Fifthly There is say you a medium between persecution and a publike Toleration a middle way say you betweene not suffering them to live in the Land and granting them liberty I Answer This is a very true thing for Pharaoh would have beene willing that the children of Israel
is worthy of his hire and that it is their duty to make them partakers of their carnall things of whom they receive spirituall things Further you are carefull to have them sober and peaceable and not to preach and speake against what is established by Law * Indeede I must tell you in my judgement no man can make way for a true Reformation except hee declare what is evill before he shew what is good Further you say you suppose subscriptions will not be injoyned to formes of Government and Discipline Here you seeme to yeeld that your formes of Government and Discipline be not of God then if there be no injunction none will obey but if injunctions none will obey for conscience for what good man can yeeld to an injuction that is not of God so then you may see your injunctions have beene the way and meanes to breed and bring forth a world of hypocrites as one may easily see by the Timeservers of your Church But you say that without a toleration we may injoy in a secret way our Church fellowship Indeede M. Edwards we have learned that lesson already for Christ hath taught us that we shall fly into the Wildernesse * and that the earth shall helpe us * but sometimes it proves to the danger of our lives and alwayes to the danger of our liberty as it may appeare by the practise herein London for though wee meete never so privately and peaceably yet such Cattle as your selfe are alwayes bleeting in the eares of your Parish Officers and Constables with your other Officers even till you move the Lord Major himself to be your drudge and as your horne which you push forward for the destruction of our bodies when he hath laid violent hands on them for it is evident that it hath beene to the losse of some of their lives and this is the liberty we have in this Kingdome and all through the instigation of you Priests But you say though some of the more sober and conscientious Ministers and people could use it better yet the Brownists and Anabaptists and weake brethren would be apt to scandall and therefore to avoid scandall you would iâ—siâ—â—ate that we are bound to neglect the whole forme of Church worship I told you before and I tell you now that you are afraid to have your owne glory ecclipsed and by this all men may see and by all your formers answers also that you would have us to enjoy in this Kingdome neither Ordinances nor conscience The next thing you lay downe is the judgement of an antient Father But indeede he is as sound in the faith as your selfe for hee would have men to joyne to Churches that have no power * And this being the sixth answer that you have given to their third reason you entreat them to lay all your sixe together and to consider sâ—â—ly whether God require unlesse they have a toleration to leave the Kingdome to runne many hazards and dangers when as they may enjoy so much at home without a Toleration as you say you have opened to these sixe answers To â—ch I answer when they are laid all six together they make but a peece of an answer to one of their Reasons and this piece of your answer is stuffed full of falicies as hath beene already proved and may further appeare by the conclusion of all here when you say they may have so much at home for it hath beene proved already that they can have nothing at home either in respect of liberty or worship but what they must have by stealth for when they would injoy the Ordinances of God which are Iewels which you would have none to have but your selves that so you might seeme glorious If any I say will presume to borow the Iewels and carry them away you will pursue after them and you know it was the practise of the Egyptians of old for they would have suffered the Israelites to have gone away empty and left their cattle behinde them so that they might have had nothing with them to have offered sacrifice withall and I pray you were not the Southsayers the cause of this by withstanding Moses and Aaron against the children of Israel even by the false Figures which they cast before the eyes of Phaâ—aoh to harden Pharâ—ahs heart even as you Priests doe at this day And thus I have laid together your sixe Reasons and weighed them but one truth is sufficient to over weigh them all But yet you have also a seventh Answer which is by it selfe and it is this That if they will not be satisfied say you without setting up Churches it is better they should get out of the Kingdome Besides you would have all others that be of this minde to leave the Land and goe to New-England that cannot be satisfied but that they must erect Churches to the disturbing of the peace of three Kingdomes Truely Mr. Edwards you shew your selfe a bloody minded man that would have the Innocent suffer for the faults of them that are guilty Was not the sending of your Masse-bookes into Scotland the cause of the disturbance and hath it not appeared plaine enough to the Parliament and to the Scots before the Parliament sate that the Bishops and Priests were the cause of the disturbance I doubt not but you have read both the Scotish Intentions and their Demands with their Declarations which have plainely manifested who and what was the cause of the disturbance it was not the meeting of a handfull of the Lords people which ever sought and do seeke the good and wellfare of the three Kingdomes with the life happy reigne of their Soveraigne Lord the King who alwayes sue unto God for the peace of the Kingdome in whose peace they may enjoy peace but contrariwise it plainely appeares that it was you and your Fathers house which caused this variance But say you it will be no great harme for many of them to goe away I answer It is like you apprehend the Judgements of God comming upon you and you thinke to be eased by driving out the Lords people in haste Further you say you would rather goe to the uttermost parts of the earth to live in a meane and hard condition rather than you would disturbe the peace or good of three Kingdomes For Answer to this I must tell you I would you had considered this before you had done it But now seeing God of his mercy hath reconciled them againe it may be the wisedome of you and your fellowes to depart unto Rome that Gods true Religion may be set up here in England without Popish Injunctions that so the last errour be not worse than the first for you say It is better that one perish than Vnity therefore in my judgement it is better that they should runne the hazard who have occasioned the strife Further you plead for your selfe and for hundreds of your brethren that you have borne the brunt
I say they are even like the way to â—eâ—vâ—n or the gate that leadeth unto life which is so narrow that such as you can hardly enter in thereat But if their greatest care be as you say to set up the Independant way * which is the way of God This still crosseth your former slander of them that they little minde the publike good and salvation of mens soules But that this is true namely that they minde little else but the propagation of their Independant way you bring the Protestation Protested to witnesse which Testimony maketh them peaceable men because they desire to meddle with no mans businesse but their owne And if they minde little else but to set up the Independant way then it will also crosse your following speech which you say you speak from your conscience and experience that never any of them had so large a spirit for good after they fell into that way nor tookesuch care you say for the propagation of the Gospell and preaching the Word to men without I tell you indeede if they did not take care to preach the Word to men without they would never come to preach amongst you much lesse would they then sue for libertie so to doe as the Welsh Ministers have done if they had not a desire to informe the ignorant in those truths that God hath revealed to them And therefore you may see in your accusations against them you are proved a very slanderer and have taken upon you the office of Sathan the old accuser of the Brethren But you conceive God never honoured them so much afterward But seeing it is but your conception it matters not for if they were active for God and did famously and worthily before they entred into the way of God I am sure they could not but be more active afterwards for when a man is in a Journey especially if he know or conceive himselfe to be out of the way he goeth on heavily till he meeteth with some directer either to informe him that he is in the right way or to direct him how he shall get into it and being setled in his right way hee goeth on more cheerefully and actively than hee could doe in the time of his doubting even so it must needs be with these men as I said before Againe you say that the men that hold those principles of Separation God did never honour much I answer it seemes you thinke Gods thoughts are as your thoughts and because you seeke for the praise of men and have it and a few men honour them and because Christs flocke is a little flocke therefore you imagine they are not honoured of God which is very carnall reasoning â— But as you have slandered the men all this while so now you here slander their way and principles which way is the way of God and whose principles are Gods truthes yet you say there is such a malignitie cleaves to it even as doth to the Episcopacie This is a very great slander to compare Godswayes to the wayes of Sathan in saying there is such a malignity cleaving to it which alters mens spirits and makes their hearts worse and yet you here confesse that many of them continue good in the maine Thus much for your Fourth Reason YOu say their fifth Reason is That this is no other but envy in the Ministers that makes them against Toleration because they feare their people will desert from them and come to us being so pure in Ordinances and Churches and thus you say the Protestation Protested speakes Your answer to this Reason is 1. That it is not out of envie but you hold their practise sinfull and unwarrantable to separate from your Churches and to erect such Congregations and therefore you say you speake against it and that you here promise to make good in a following Discourse For answer to this I must tell you that it is not your denying it to be out of Envie that will cleare you for there is nothing appeares more plainer than that envie against the truth and the Professors thereof was the cause of your writing against Toleration And that it is through feare your people will desert is plaine by your owne confession in your Fourth Reason where you say that if the Liturgie and Ceremonies stand in force and Toleration be granted they will make brave worke in a short time and yet you hope some judicious Christians as you say will be kept from their way But in that you here say you hold the practise sinfull and unwarrantable You have made that part of your judgement knowne already before but your judgement was grounded upon no true Principle and therefore it hath beene already proved to be emoneous And whereas you say you will make it good to be sinfull in a following Discourse I answer If you can but make men beleeve this you will worke a wonder But I know it is impossible for you to make good your promise and therefore I cannot expect performance Now to cleare your selfe 2. You say it cannot be counted envie in Ministers to be unwilling to have their flocks and people fall from them I answer By so saying you rather confirme their Reason than remove it namely that it was your feare of the deâ—erting of your people But for you to insinuate that the people that be called out of a way of sinne and brought into the way of grace and liberty be stolâ—â—â— away and tempted away by strangers as you would make it concluding that it is as tolerable for children to forsake their parents renouncing the 〈◊〉 that bare them and the â—â—ppâ—s that gave them sucke throwing dirt in the face of father and mother as it is for a man to forsake Idolatrous worship this is an unjust comparison and crosseth the whole tenor of the Scripture Now you would make this your owne case for you allude to your spirituall children who say you are the fruit of your labours I pray you how can you count the Parish of St. Elens your spirituall children seeing you are there but an hireling and as you have not begotten them to the Faith so you have not taken the charge of them to watch over them as a Spirituall Father and you will onely preach to them so long as any will pay you wages but no longer how then have you converted them to God from what have you converted them or what have you converted them too have you turned them from serving dumbe Idols to serve the living God I have heard of no great change of them nor of any other where you have preached you found them in the Church of England and you found them Christians in your owne judgement and you know they were baptized when you came to them and in the same Church where you found them there you leave them I pray you how have you begotten them to God you found them under a false power submitting to a false worship and
and though it be not in exsise for victuals yet it is in some other wayes from which the subjects of Holland are freed The next thing you affirme is That your riches and strength standeth in one way of Religion To which I answer I thinke if I could understand your minde herein you meane the riches and strength of the Priests for I am sure the riches and strength of the Kingdome may stand best with Toleration as it may appeare partly by what hath been said already for you have heard that the Lords people whom you thus persecute maintaine their owne poore And it will also be made appeare that they pay Scot and Lot in the Kingdome in all civill respects and are all as true subjects to the Kings Majesty and are ready to doe him all faithfull service with their bodies and estates as any in the Kingdome But I confesse that toleration would be neither riches nor strength to the Priests for it is sore against the peoples will that they pay them any thing now and it will be no wonder when it shall be made to appeare what the Priests wages iâ— * but that shall be done hereafter THeir third Reason you say is That if they have not liberty to erect some Congregations it will force them to leave the Kingdome For answer whereof you doe affirme in the first place that there is no neede of a toleration for them neither that they should leave the Kingdome for conscience and that you say will appeare by the Reasons and principles which they doe agree to which you say are these First that they hold your Churches true your Ministers true Ordinances true Further you say they can partake with you in your Congregations in all Ordinances even to the Lords Supper To which I answer Indeede here you would make the Readers beleeve that they had opened a wide gappe if they should take your affirmation without your provisall but you come to helpe your selfe handsomely in that you say their condition was that it must first be provided that scandalous and ignorant persons must be kept backe and Cerimonies must be removed Methinks this is a mighty great mountaine that stands between them and you and therefore you have small cause to aske them wherfore they should desire to set up Churches fortill this mountaine be removed they may be true to their own principles and not go from their word and yet never communicate with you either in worship or government For first If you keepe out all scandalous persons out of all the Churches in England from the Sacraments and all ignorant persons truely then your Churches will be as emptie as ours Secondly If you should remove away all your Ceremonies which is the second part of your reformation you could not tell how to worship for your whole forme and manner of worship is made of invented Ceremonies But if you can procure such a reformation to have your Church all consist of persons of knowledge fearing God and â—ating covetousnesse void of all other scandalls so far as we can judge by the Scripture and that the Ceremonies may be removed and we enjoy as you bragge all Gods Ordinances with you as well as in our owne Churches then you shall heare what I will say to you as well as the Independant men But till all this be done you see there is still good reason for good men either to desire liberty or to leave the Kingdome Further you say some of them could take the charge of Parochiall Churches amongst you upon the Reformation I Answer Indeede such a Reformation which you have formerly mentioned will hardly stand with Parochiall Churches But you say they could yeeld to Presbyteriall Government by Classes and Synods so they might not be injoyned to submit to it as Jure Divino To which I answer It seemes by your owne confession that they doe deny the Presbyteriall government by Classes and Synods to be from God as it appeares in that you say they will not submit to it as Iure Divino and therefore you have overthrowne your selfe in all this your reasoning with your Synods and Classes also so that still there remaines good grounds to seeke a Toleration that the Saints may grow into bodies even in this Land But to grow into one body with you as you would have them while your Churches body is like a Leopard and all bespotted as appeares by your words were very absurd for you â—â—â—e affirme that the best of your members even the Professors especially of London and of the great Townes in England are very fâ—â—le yet I hope you will confesse that they are the best of your members then if it be true as you say that you must remove in your Reformation all ignorant and scandalous persons by your grounds you should have but a very few to make a Church of as well as wee For you must remove also all your Professors which you say are so scandalous Therefore I should rather counsell you to repent of all your evills that you have done and be reconciled to God the Father and Christ his Sonne and separate your selves from all your wickednesse and even come and grow up into one body with us Secondly you say Seeing your Churches Ministers and Ordinances be true the erecting of new and withdrawing from such Congregations can never be answered to God I answer Here you take for granted that which you cannot prove and it is your wisdome so to doe for by that meanes you may make simple people beleeve that you are very right except a few defects which no man shall be freed from while he is in this life But now to the point and first touching your Churches and Ministers which you say be true and you also say the Independant men would grant them to be true upon a Reformation such as the Word requires I tell you for answer that this your juggling will not helpe you for no man is bound to take your bare word therefore it is good you make proofe of that which you have said But before you goe to prove your Churches true declare unto me what Churches you meane for I ever tooke the whole Land of England to be but one Church as it stands established by the Canon Laws and that all the Parishes in the Land make up but one entire body therefore what is amisse in one Parish all the whole are guilty of and it will be laid to the charge of the Archbishops who are the Metropolitanes or chiefe Priests over the Church of the Land Seeing it is so you must stand out to maintaine your Church and you neede not to trouble your selfe about your Church-es for I know no dependancie you have upon any except it be Rome according as I have told you before in the conclusion of my answer to your first tenth Reason against Independencie Therefore this is the Church that you must maintaine even the Church of England established