they are of the same mind and party M. Are you a Lawyer and do you accuse men in the Temple without naming them and bringing proof of their guilt Noxa caput sequitur should all the Clergy be called guilty if Sibthorp or Manwaring or Heylin were proved so what error you accuse them of prove and punish them for no other 6. But I prove that the Bishops themselves made other Ordination necessary Because they would Ordain none without sinful subscriptions and conditions which must not be yielded to If you can prove the terms lawful on which they Ordain I shall trie your skil anon II. I farther prove the Ordination in question valid thus Where there is a true notification of God's will that this person shall be a Minister of the Gospel there is no want of validity in his Ordination But those here ordained by Presbyters might have such a true notification of God's will Ergo The major is plain Because God's will and Man's consent are the fundamentum of the Relation therefore nothing can be wanting to it 's being and validity The Minor is proved Those men that have laudable ability and willingness and the consent of a people in true necessity and the approbation of a National Assembly of Learned Divines of which many Bishops were called to be members and the investing Ordination of the gravest Senior Pastors that were then to be had had a true notification of God's will that they should be his Ministers But such were these in question Ergo. III. The way of ordination which was valid in the Primitive Church is now valid But such is that in question Ergo. As to the Minor The Ordination of such Pastors as were but the Rectors of single Congregations was it that was valid in the Primitive Church But such is that in question Doctor Hammond labours to prove that in Scripture time there were no other Bishops or Presbyters but the single Pastors of single Assemblies Mr. Clerkson hath fully proved and I more fully in my Treatise of Episcopacy that for a hundred and fifty years if not much more there were no particular Churches bigger than our Parishes A Bishop then was but the chief Parish or Congregational Pastor who guided it with his Assistance And such are all our Incumbents especially in great Towns who have Chapels and Curates and Lecturers to assist them And Grotius de Imper. sum Pot. sheweth that really the chief Pastor of a Church is a Bishop whatever they call him But I have so largely proved in my Treatise of Episcopacy pag. 231 232 c. that our questioned Ordainers were scripture Bishops and that those now called Presbyters Ordained long after that I must not repeat the same things here again IV. Those that are in Orders may confer Orders Ordinis est Ordinare as Vsher was wont to say As Physicians make Physicians and Philosophers make Philosophers and Geneâ—ation propagateth the Species And our Church consenteth to this 1. In that Presbyters must concur in Ordination by Imposition of hands which is an act of authority and collation 2. In that the Convocation hath a greater power even Canon making and that Convocation consisteth half and more of Presbyters and the Canons Excommunicateth all that deny it to be the represensative Church of England But Presbyters have the power of Order as Bishop Carlton de Iurisdict proveth it commonly acknowledged equal with Bishops pag. 7. And the Church of England in King Aelfrik's time ad Wolf. in Spelman pag. 576. l. 17. Affirm that Bishops and Presbyters are but one Order V. Those may ordain validly whose Ordination is more warrantable than that of Roman Bishops for our Bishops own theirs as valid and ordain them not again when they turn Protestants But the Presbyters that Ordained here fourteen years did it more warrantably than the Roman Bishops Ergo 1. The Papists Ordain men to a false Office to be Mass-Priests But the said Pastors ordained none but to the same office that Christ instituted 2. The Papists have their power of Ordination from the Pope whose own power and office in Specie is a false Usurpation But it is not so here where the ordaining Pastors were lawfully called 3. Papists Ordination enters them into a false Church in Specie a pretended catholick Church headed by the Pope but our Pastors entered them into no Church but Christs 4. Papists make them take sinful Oaths and Conditions before they Ordain them But these Pastors at least that imposed not the Covenant did not If yet any will nullifie the Reformed Churches and Ministry and their Ordination and not the Papists we may understand what their Mind and Communion is VI. That Ordination is valid which is less culpable than many Diocesans But such is that in question Ergo To the proof of the Minor which only needs proof here 1. Some Diocesans here have been Papists as Godfrey Goodman of Gloucester and divers have pleaded for and owned a Forreign Iurisdiction which the Oath of Supremacy abjureth 2. I have fully proved in the said Treatise of Episcopacy that the Office of Pastors of single Churches is more warrantable than our Diocesans who are the sole Bishops of many score or hundred Churches 3. The said Presbyters at least who medled not with the Covenant imposed no unlawful condition on the Ordained as too many Bishops have done 4. Many Bishops plead the derivation of their power from Rome And what theirs is I shewed before But because I must not write a Treatise on this one question you may read it done copiously and unanswerably by Voetius against Comel Iansenius de desperata Causa Papatus Yet I add one difference more The Ordainers and Ordained in question had the consent of the Flocks and neighbour Ministers but the said Bishops come in by the Magistrate without the consent or knowledge of the Flocks and so do the Ministers usually whom they Ordain And what the ancient Church thought of this abundance of Canons shew I 'le now cite but one Concil Nic. 2. Can. 3. Omnem Electionem quae fit a Magistratibus Episcopi Presbyteri vel Diaconi irritam manere ex canone dicente siquis Episcopus secularibus Magistratibus usus per eos Ecclesiam obtinuerit deponatur segregetur omnes qui cum eo Communicant Oportet enim eum qui est promovendus ad Episcopatum ab Episcopis eligi quemadmodum a sanctis patribus Nicaenis decretum est in Can. qui dicit Episcopum oportet maxime quidem ab omnibus qui sunt in provincia constitui And many Councils nullifie their Episcopacy that come not in by the election or consent of Clergy and People which ad hominem is somewhat to them that urge such Councils against us L. I confess your reasons seem unanswerable at least as to the case of necessity which I am convinced was the case of those that were ordained when there were no Bishops to whom they could have access or no
Offices as a Body of many Members or a Chain of many Links as we say Bonum est ex Causis integris And he that wounds any one Member wounds the Man and he that breaketh one Link breaketh the Chain And he that accuseth any one part of the Government accuseth the Government thereby And there is no doubt in the World but they so intended that made this Canon L. And what have you against your Obedience to this M. You may easily know what by what is already said 1. I have fully proved as aforesaid in my Treatise of Episcopacy that if Episcopacy were never so certainly of Divine Institution this Form of Diocesan Prelacy deposeth quantum in se the old Church Form the old Episcopacy the old Presbytery and almost all true Discipline and in stead of each sets up that which is repugnant to the Word of God. And must we all confederate to maintain this Church Corruption and all agree to renounce Reformation or any Conviction tending to Repentance 2. I have told you what it is for Lay-men and Courts to arrogate the Decretive Power of the Church Keys and for single Priests and Officials to rule all the Clergy and People as under them And for our Prelate to undertake to be the sole Bishop over many Hundred Clergy And then to Govern per alios in a secular manner even by Lay-men that do that in his Name which he knows not of and this in order to Gaols and Ruine If all this be agreeable to God's Word what is contrary to it 3. I have told you what it is to make every Church Officer so necessary as that it should be Excommunication to say Any one of them is sinful when as Learned good Men as most the World hath have written to prove almost all of them sinful corrupt Inventions of Arrogance and that it 's far worse for Men to presume to make new Forms and Offices of Church Government than new Ceremonies 4. The Parliament of England condemned the Oath called the caetera Oath in the Canon of 1640. And the late long Parliament of 1662. never restored it nor any since And was it not formed according to this Canon What 's c. but And the rest that bear Office therein reliquos ad ejusdem gubernaculum constitutos For my part tho' I have oft read over Cousins Tables and the Canons I do not yet know and remember all the Church Governing Courts and Offices How many there be besides the Bishop the Chancellors Court the Arches the Prerogative Court the Arch-deacons Commissaries Officials Surrogates I know not And are every one of these become as necessary to be taken for lawful as the twelve Apostles or the Articles of our Creed For my part I am far from thinking that those Bishops and Doctors should be Excommunicated or Damned who by Faction are drawn to deny the Ministry and Churches that have not Prelatical Ordination and Government and shall all be condemned that think as ill of Civilians Excommunicatings 5. I have told you what it is for every Lord Knight and Gentleman that doth but say that any of these Church Governing Offices are against the Word of God to be ipso facto an Excommunicate man. And for the people to be put to question whether they may chuse them for Parliament men and whether they may sit in Parliament while Excommunicate L. This Canon with the three or four adjoining make me begin to think hardlier of the Canoneers than I thought I should ever have done as to their honesty M. I would not have you think too hardly of them but only to think truly of Nonconformity Chap. XXVII Point XXIV Of Publishing the 8th Canons Excommunications L. VVHat is the Eighth Canon and its Excommunication M. Whoever shall hereafter affirm or teach that the Form and Manner of Making and Consecrating Bishops Priests or Deacons containeth ANY THING in it that is repugnant to the Word of God Let them be Excommunicated ipso facto and not to be restored until he repent and publickly revoke such his wicked Errors L. What have you against the Execution of this M. A great deal In sum it is unrighteous oppressing and dividing to cast out all Persons from the Church of Christ who think that nothing is faulty in the Book of Ordination or in their Principles or Practice there expressed And we dare not curse those that Christ doth bless should we do this for a Benefice in what should we differ from the sin of Balaam who loved the wages of unrighteousness whose iniquity and madness his Ass rebuked saith St. Peter 2 Pet. 2. 15. Yea shall we not be far worse than he that for an House full of Silver and Gold could not go beyond the Word of the Lord and did not curse but bless Gods people And it is not proud malignant Tongues reviling Gods Servants and calling their Opinions wicked Errors that will make Christ disown his Members or will warrant Balaam or us to curse them O how unlike is this to the Spirit and Ministry of Christ for Prelates and Priests to curse and cast out the Children of God for saying that they go against his Law. L. But what is amiss in the Book of Ordination M. I am anon to tell you that But if there were nothing amiss in it yet the belief of its innocency is not necessary to Salvation L. But if every man have leave to accuse the Orders of the Church what Order can be maintained M. 1. Leave modestly to express dissent in a doubtful case may stand with Order 2. If men do it disorderly there be other Penalties besides ipso facto Excommunication Every breach of the peace is not Rebellion nor punisht with Death But I 'll tell you briefly what may occasion good men to say that their Ordinations are sinful 1. In that they thereby obtrude Pastors on the Churches upon the bare choice of a Patron without or against the peoples wills 2. In that they professedly ordain such as their Canon forbids to Preach or Expound any Doctrine 3. In that they determine that Bishops Priests and Deacons are three distinct Orders which yet is an undetermined Controversie among even the Learnedst Papists And must we damn and cut off men for that which the very Papists leave at liberty 4. In that they ordain men to an Office which Scripture maketh no mention of Dr. Hammond saith that it cannot be proved that there were any Presbyters subject to Bishops in Scripture times nor any but Bishops None that had not power of Ordination and the Keys nor any Bishops of a multitude of Churches and Presbyters both which are here ordained 5. In that they Swear Obedience to Arch-bishops and their Sees and make Priests Covenant Obedience to their Ordinaries as aforesaid If a godly man do as Bucer did to King Edward the Sixth as you may see in his Scripta Anglic. and desire some of these faults to be amended doth he deserve
be such And tho' good and sober Lords and Gentlemen will promote good and sober men the propagation of the species is the most natural Appetite and an evil Tree will bring forth evil Fruit and a Hater of Godliness is unlike to chuse a godly Pastor And any man that hath Money be he never so bad or erroneous may buy an Advowson or Presentation And must all pâ—or Souls have no other Pastors than these men will chuse And quo jure how came they by a right to chuse Pastors for all the â—and Did God ever give it them The People at first sinfully gave it them in blind gratitude for Building and Endowing Temples But Mens Grant many hundred years ago being sinful hath no power to bind our Consciences Our Fore fathers might give their Lands from their Posteritâ— but they could not give away Gods Ordinances nor the means of our Salvation If Patrons might ill dispose of Temples and Tythes that 's nothing to prove that they may chuse Pastors for all men against their wills L. But the Bishops have the power of Institution and they will keep out unworthy Men. M. 1. Do they de facto keep them out I told you truly what a company of ignorant drunken Readers I was bred up under till I was thirteen years of Age or fourteen and what a sort were round about us And yet the Bishops were as good men as any I know now Bishop Morton was our Bishop If we are so hardly agreed in a notorious matter of Fact viz. what Pastors multitudes of Parishes now have it 's in vain to dispute of any thing else 2. When we have told the Conformists what men are Instituted their common answer is that it 's long of the Patrons and the Law that enableth not the Bishop to keep them out And that if the Bishop deny Institution to any one that can but say some account of his Faith in Latin a quare impedit will force him to Institute him But whether you will lay it on the Bishops want of Power or their Will it 's no relief to the miserable People And that which the Bishop requireth more to Ordination is but a Certificate of a good Conversation which I never knew man so Heretical or wicked in all my Life that could not get from three Ministers L. Would you have Patrons turned out of their right M. No it is no right of Gods giving to be the sole Choosers of Pastors for men Souls There is a threefold part in Ministers admittance 1. To judge who is fit to be by them Ordained And this is the Ordainers part 2. To Chuse or Consent who shall be the Pastor of Mens Souls And this is the Peoples part 3. To judge and chuse who shall have the publick Places Maintenance Countenance and Toleration And this is the Magistrates and Patrons part L. But these three may differ and it 's like will do so how then shall ever the Churches be provided M. There is nothing in this World without difficulties and inconveniences But on so great a Treasure a threefold Lock is good security and hath less inconvenience than the way that we are against It 's like necessity will at last make all consent as the Cities in Belgium do in their Government But if they should not 1. None can chuse who shall be the Pastor of this or that Church till the Ordainers consent that he be in general a Minister in the Church Universal So that their Consent so far is previous 2. If the Patron offer an unfit Man and the People refuse him he may offer others If they continue to disagree it is but let the Patron chuse who shall have the Place and Tythes and the People chuse who shall be their Pastor L. What confusion will this bring in Shall one that is no Pastor have the Benefice and whom shall the People chuse and where shall they Assemble M. If great Men that should keep Gods Order will obstinately break it it 's they that cause the confusion and inferiors cannot remedy it But if you will lay by prejudice and have patience I shall open the case to you I. The Magistrate as the Patron of the Church must see that every place have competent Teaching And over the meer Catechumens or Auditors he may appoint who shall chuse these Parish Teachers and to them as such he may give the publick Place and Maintenance if Original Dedication to Pastors as such make it not Sacriledge to alienate it And these Teachers are bound to Preach Catechise and do all that 's due to Catechumens II. If these men be tolerable no doubt the generality of the People will chuse them for their Pastors prudence requiring it rather than lose the advantage of the Place and of a countenanced maintained Ministry III. If intolerable Men get in or such as the Flock of Communicants cannot submit to it 's most like that the People will for the advantage of the publick Place and Countenance take some Neighbour Pastor for theirs and there Communicate paying their Tythes at home IV. If most chuse the Parish Teacher for their Pastor and a few Dissenters go to the next Parish Church the inconvenience will be comparatively small V. If any number can consent to no Parish Minister near them it is but to tolerate their Communion in a place of their own preparing if the Magistrate find their Principles and Conversation tolerable and this under Laws of Peace and good Behaviour and what harm is in all this L. It seems then you take it for unlawful Conformity to take the Parish Ministers for our Pastors M. No Sir tho' any Patron chuse them and obtrude them to whom God hath given no such right yet if they be fit or tolerable Men the convenience of Place Countenance Maintenance and Parish Order will teach Men as I said finis gratiâ in prudence to consent to them But if such be unfit and intolerable I will have better if I can And I take it for unlawful Conformity to take all or any that are intolerable for our Pastors because such Patrons chuse them who I should be loth should chuse my Servants my Cook or my Physician And it 's unlawful to give away to a Patron the Churches right of Election or Consent if we can keep it Chap. XLV Point II. Whether Parents have not more right than our Patrons to chuse Pastors and Church Communion for their Children M. II. THE next fault of Lay-Conformity is That they are deprived of due Family-government while a Stranger called Patron and not the Parents must chuse who shall be Pastor to their Children when they are at Age and to what Church their Family shall go L. Did not you say before that the King may settle Teachers in all the Parishes and force Men to hear them why then may he not force you and your Children and Servants to hear them as Catechumens M. I told you that he ought to take
forward to meddle with more publick Church matters without our Superiors invitation or consent but we may say that it is our judgment that these additions following would greatly strengthen the Interest of Religion Church and Concord I. That the Parish Churches be acknowledged True Churches and their Ministers such Overseers as are necessary to Essentiate True Churches that is That all Presbyters be Episcopi Gregis Overseers of the Flock and the Incumbent the President among his Curate Presbyters where there be such And that the Diocesan is not the sole Essentiating Church Pastors and the Diocesan Church the lowest particular Church and the Parish Assemblies but his Chapels or Parts of the lowest Church and the Parish Ministers his Curates and no true Pastors II. That no Lay-Elder Chancellour or Civilian have or use the Decretive Power of Excommunication or Absolution called the Keys III. That New and more Peaceable Canons be made instead of that Book which now obtaineth according to the Scripture Canons Or that there be no Canons but Scripture besides Statute Laws IV. That Bishops have no Forcing Power nor the Writ de Excommunicato Capiendo or any Force by the Sword be Annexed to Excommunication as such but that the Magistrates hear and judge before they punish and Obedience to Bishops be unconstrained and voluntary V. That Bishops judge Church-Causes in Session with their Presbyters and not alone nor with some few of their own Choice or with Lay-men but in regular Synods and Ordain there by their consent and after sufficient trial of them that seek Ordination And so of Institution VI. That Diocesses be not greater than the Diocesan is able to Oversee and that he forbid not the Parish Pastors their particular works but only use his general overcight and power on Appeals VII That Bishops oft visit the inferior Pastors and Churches and instruct the Juniors by direction and Example how to Preach and guide the Flock and rebuke the Erroneous Scandalous Unpeaceable and Negligent VIII That the Bishops be Chosen by the Diocesan Synod and Consented to freely without force by their City flocks where they reside and Invested by the King who hath the power of Temporal Privileges IX That the City and neighbour Pastors be the Cathedral Dean and Prebends at least where City Churches want maintenance or that they ambulatorily Preach abroad where there is most need X. If Arch-Bishop Usher's Form or Reduction of Government to the Primitive state or else King Charles the Second his Declaration about Ecclesiastical Affairs be but setled by Law it will be a Healing and Great Reformation inferior Synods not hurtfully fettered being allowed under the Diocesan Synods And whether the Diocesans be Called Bishops or Arch-Bishops as Successors to the Apostles and Evangelists in the ordinary parts of their Office a general care of many Churches the name is to be left to each mans free judgment As to the ignorant clamors for a real or seeming Re-ordination 1. I have said so much against it in my Treatise of Episcopacy and my Disputation of Ordination in my Dispute of Church-Government and my Christian Concord that while the objectors by contempt refuse to read and answer them it will be no cure of their pride and partiality to repeat the same again But I say that I have fully proved unanswered that they that were Ordained by Synods of Incumbent Pastors and specially those also then approved by the Westminster Assembly had a better Ordination and that by true Bishops than either Papists or meer English Diocesans that are not Arch-bishops can give And yet they Re-ordain not Papists 1. Either they take the Parish-Churches that is the Pastor and Communicants distinct from the meer Auditors and Catechumens and from the Aliens to be true proper Churches in political Sense or not If yea Then those Churches have Bishops For Ecclesia est plebs Episcopo adunata ubi Episcopus ibi Ecclesia Their own Principle is That it is no proper political Church without a Bishop There are three degrees of Bishops 1. All Presbyters are Episcopi Gregis by the consent of Papists and Protestants 2. The chief Incumbents that have Curates or may have are Episcopi Praesides The Ordination without Diocesans was by these two sorts of Bishops 3. True Diocesans are Arch-bishops Episcopi generales plurium Ecclesiarum We refuse not their Ordination but Men have true Episcopal Ordination without it But if they say that the Diocesan is the lowest Bishop of a particular Church and that the Parish-Incumbent Rectors are no true Bishops and their Assemblies no true political Churches formed of Bishops but only parts of one Diocesan Church infimi Ordinis we abhor such Tyrannical Schismatical Diocesans and their pretence of proper power to Ordain and the Primitive Church had never any such Ordaniers or Bishops And I advise all Ministers neither to be Re-ordained by such nor to yield to the appearance of such an evil by coming under their equivocating imposition of hands lest they take God's Name in vain and harden Papists and Church-Tyrants in their false condemnation of the Reformed Churches If it be want of a legal right in England that they pretend let the Magistrate give you a Licence or Legal right I write not this for my own interest for I was Ordained by a Diocesan and am past all hopes or fears of Man. CHAP. LX. The Reasons of these ten Articles L. YOV must give me leave to tell you what objections are like to be raised against your proposed Articles of Reconciliation And first your own party will be unsatisfied in them and so they will do no good because here is not a word against Arch-bishops Bishops Deans Arch-deacons and the rest that bear office in their Courts which yet is the thing that you your self seem most to dissent from and which the Covenant did renounce M. 1. We have so much swearing and unswearing and forswearing that I will meddle as little as I can in things that look like Perjury You know that as the last Generation was sworn against Prelacy this new Generation is sworn to it Yea in a manner the whole Land is sworn or covenanted never to endeavour any alteration of it And how much soever I am against that Oath yet I will meddle as little as I can in urging men to that which they take for Perjury And I have elsewhere told you that the Covenant renounced not all Episcopacy many of the Assembly of Divines declared their dissent from any such renunciation and had entred their protestation against it as Dr. Cornel. Burges told me had not the Explication been added which confineth the Renunciation to the English frame And that the present Non-Conformists would have thankfully received the Primitive Episcopacy they shewed by their motion 1660. 2. We offer this form on supposition that we may not have what we think best but what we can joyfully submit to for our Concord and the Churches safety 3. I have
inserted those restraints of the hurt and abuse of the Diocesan form and their Courts as may do much to secure Religion And if they be kept from doing harm we have most of our end Their faults are not ours who cannot remedy them 4. And you are mistaken in thinking that this form of Reconciliation will cause no Concord Less was accepted with published thanks to the King for his Declaration 1660. And I believe that the Dissenters would be so few as that the Concord of Consenters would render them inconsiderable or uncapable of being dangerous to our peace L. But 1. what makes you put in so much that no body denieth Do you not seem hereby to intimate unjustly that all this is denied you M. 1. I have no hope of Concord but by disputing ex concessis and improving mens own principles Do you think I am so foolish as to expect that Adversaries so fierce should change their judgments by any thing that I can say if their own interest or their own principles by inference change them not 2. We want nothing more in reality and practice than that which is most granted us in shadow and general words who grant not that we must obey God before man And must love God above all our neighbours as our selves and must do as we would be done by And must bear with the receive the weak and persecute none c. And if this were done we were all agreed O happy England if all were granted practically and indeed which men in general words approve But if they grant this and yet will not grant it but seek to ruine them that seek it are they not unexcuseable L. Why begin you with the qualifications requisite to Baptism as if you spake to Infidels M. Because I cannot build without a foundation This is the chief thing necessary to our Reformation that the Church may consist of capable persons L. Why name you Parents and Pro-parents instead of God-fathers and God-mothers M. Because it belongs to him to covenant in the Childs name or behalf whose will may justly go as for the Childs will and that is they whose he is and who have the power of him and whom God hath commanded and authorized to this office and who are obliged to educate him and seek his well-fare By Pro-parents I mean such as by Adoption or otherwise justly take the child for theirs which when Parents leave them Orphans is usual I say nothing against God-fathers as seconds presupposing this much L. But I pray you who shall be judge whether the profession be Understanding which must be made by the Adult or by the Parent By this trick you will make the Priest the chief Governour of the Church and he shall keep out whom he pleases as for want of understanding the words of the Covenant M. 1. I confess that this is the first and most momentous part of the power of the Keys But it tells us that it is not only Bishops that have that power But either some-body or no body must have this power or trust 1. If No-body Turks Heathens Sadducees any may be baptized tho' in scorn and may be members of the Church at pleasure and the Church shall indeed be no Church being confounded with the World. A Parrot may be taught to say those words A man of about 80 Years of age in the Parish where I taught being ask'd who Iesus Christ was pointed to the Sun and said That was he and ask'd Wh was the Holy Ghost Said he thought the Moon What wiseman will be the Pastor of such a Church 2. Christ hath instituted an Office for this judgment and given them the Keys Therefore there must be some such judge 2. If Some-body who must it be 1. If it be every expectant for himself it will be as before and there will be no Church Any Heathen may come in 2. If it must be the Magistrate you call him to attend this Service and to teach and try all that are baptized at age and all Parents for their Children And if you lay on him the Pastors Office you make him Pastor 3. If it must be the Bishop it is impossible and no Bishop will do it when he doth not so much as know or see one of an hundred in his Diocess It must then be the Parish-Minister or No-body 3. Those must be trusted with it whom Christ hath appointed for such trust But that is the Ministers To them he hath commited the Keys of his Church or Kingdom 4. Those must be trusted with it that must Execute it It is the Minister that must Baptize And therefore he must judge whom to baptize or else he is but an Executioner like one that washeth any one that 's foul and not a judge of what he doth nor must answer for it 5. The Universal Church ever since Christ's days hath agreed in this And shall we now overthrow it And as to the exception against the Power of the Pastor 1. All power may be abused shall we have no King no Judge or Justice or Bishops because they may abuse their power 2. It is so natural to men to consult their own carnal Interest which will here most lie in pleasing the people and sloathfully to omit so costly and troublesome a duty that it 's enough to foretell that a hundred will sin in making the door too wide for one that maketh it too narrow and doleful experience tells us this We are confounded by the contrary extream 2. He that is refused wrongfully by one Minister may find enough that will receive him 3. We grant appeals to Rulers in case of Male-administration 4. The setting open the Church-doors without an examiner will be an hundred fold worse And you must be like the Woman that would never have her house swept lest her servant should chance to sweep out a pin What think you of all the ancient Churches that taught the Adult long as Catechumens before they would baptize even them that begg'd it L. 2. In your second Article again you give the Minister a power to judge of mens Understanding But I need no further answer to that But do you not thus make Examination by Ministers necessary to the Sacrament M. I make it needful to Confirmation or Adult-Communion but that is but once in a Man's life L. But is it not enough that Children own their baptismal Covenant by coming to Church and not denying it without any Confirmation or other Profession M. Many come to hear that are no Christians Children are born in Nescience and when they come to age must be made knowing Christians and believe and obey for themselves if they will be saved and they cannot consent to their baptismal Covenant if they understand it not This is the thing that hath corrupted the Church Those that were Infant-Christians and at age were no Christians have filled many Congregations Yet I confess that where Confirmation and Personal Trial is by the
A thousand will be unnamed when you have done your best at it But the Rule must not name every Errour against it The contrariety will be discernable It is enough that men profess a perfect Rule and renounce all contrary and be responsible to the Church and their Rulers when they corrupt Religion contrary to the Rule and their own Profession An Errour not manifested hurts not others and none is punishable till proved If Heresy be kept secret the Church must not make new Laws and Tests to make men confess it but punish it when it is vented L. But shall Ministers make no profession but what a Papist or a Heretick will make M. No if a Papist or Heretick will profess all that is necessary else we must make more Must we make new Creeds or new Scriptures as oft as dissemblers will falsely profess that already made This was the temptation to those multitudes of Creeds by which Councils distracted the Churches which Hilary decryeth L. But the Bishops will never take down the Oath of Canonical Obedience and all the other Oaths and Subscriptions that are formed to their Interest M. I cannot help that Over-doing is un-doing If ever Episcopacy be cast out it will be by such over-doing which will not let men live in Peace that would not molest them L. 6. Why do you seem to grant the Bishops and Patrons votes in the choice of Pastors when before you seem to have much against them M. I have nothing against the Ordainers judging of the fitness of the Ordained nor of Magistrate or Patrons disposal of Temples and Tithes And because nothing but necessity will weigh down the great inconvenience of maintaining distinct Pastors while â— setled Lecturer hath the Temple and Tithes therefore I suppose that the Bishop and Patron will have their Votes And I suppose you know that it is vain to motion to Patrons to resign this power were it worse than it is else Advowsons would not be sold at such rates as they are by many Patrons And my silence where speaking will do no good is no sign of my approbation L. But do you think that the Communicants shall have a negative Vote in choosing Pastors M. I think they will not till God raise up better men than many Patrons are But I am past doubt that God's Law of Nature and Scripture and the whole consent of ancient Churches Fathers and Councils are for it And methinks were not carnal Interest stronger with them than Religion men that are professedly for God's Law and Church-Canons and Customs should not obstinately oppose them all Yea the highest Episcopal Men are in this against them Mr. Thorndike saith that till the Clergy and People again choose their own Bishops there needs no other reason be given of the contempt of Episcopacy Yea I have proved past denial oft that no Non-consenter can be a member of any Pastoral Church nor any man be a mans Pastor that doth not consent It 's reason then to speak for the Flocks Consenting Vote L. But they may be forced to consent M. I shall give you a reason against that anon L. Do you think the ignorant vulgar are fit to choose themselves a Pastor The most are usually the worst M. If the Church-men will make the uncapable rabble Communicants and then deny them Church-privileges because they are uncapable they condemn themselves for taking yea forcing in such uncapable men Even as the Bishops that Ordain Ministers that cannot Preach and then by their Canon forbid them to Preach 2. And yet I will say That never knew any places in City or Country that have oft had better Pastors for Learning and all Worth than where the Communicants were the choosers Yea even the ignorant usually have a gust that discerneth and valueth good and able men 3. And yet I speak not so high as for their Power of first Choice but only of Consent nor yet to choose who shall be a Minister but who shall be their Pastor The Bishop asketh not their consent at Ordination L. But you know that if there must three Consents go to it The Ordainers the Patrons and the Communicants they may never agree and frustrate all M. Humane faultiness puts inconveniences into all actions But we must not cure it with a worse If you would take no Physick till three Physicians agree it 's a less mischief than to give any man that can buy that Power a right to impose what ignorant fellow or enemy he will to be your sole Physician Three Locks and Keys in three hands to so great a Trust may be better than one in an untrusty hand Shall every Papist or Atheist choose me a Physician as fitter than I 2. But if they should never agree it is but every one stopping at his own part The Ordainers have done their part and the Patron hath chosen a Teacher for Auditors and a Pastor for such as will accept him and the People that trust him not may go to one that they can trust and this is better than worse L. But the Patron will prevail against them as long as he must nominate though the Bishop and People had a Negative Vote for if they refuse one he will still name another of his own complexion M. Uncurable evils I cannot help I can but wish that no Patron had ever built Churches or given Glebes at so dear a rate as thereby to buy from the Church its Privileges L. But can you think that the Bishops will ever abate Re-ordination of thsoe ordained by Presbyters M. I think not and therefore I have no hope of concord by their Concession But I know that former Bishops would have done it and the Church of England still owned such since the Reformation and God may send England such again and for such an age I write and not for this with any great hope And if you would not have the Land confounded with doubts whether they be Baptized or whether they had any valid Sacraments and whether the Papists or Protestants be the true Church c. it concerns you all to regard the decision of this Case L. But you speak only against Re-Ordaining those that are already Ordained and nothing for the time to come M. 1. You know it is hopeless to move for that 2. And it 's meet that Ordination should be well regulated 3. And when all the unjust impositions are removed as is here desired few moderate men will scruple Ordination L. VII Your 7th hath so much reason that I can say nothing against it but that I doubt the Bishops will never abateâ— their Ceremonies or any part of their Liturgy so far to endure any to disuse it though they meddle not against it M. I know what 's necessary and just but I know not what men will grant I am of your mind of those in possession except some few But if any man will make and keep up any instruments of division and hurt on
pretence of concord or decency in God's service we can but wish and speak for better L. But they say if nothing unlawful be imposed it is disobedience to refuse it And if disobedience be endured no Government can stand M. 1. Judge by what is said whether no Sin be imposed 2. Obedience to God being more necessary than to man all just Rulers should encourage a due fear of sin and do nothing that tempts men from obeying God. 3. God himself doth not silence eject or condemn men for all disobedience else none could be saved All sin is disobedience to God. There is disobedience in small things as well as in great and of ignorance and infirmity as well as of malicious wilfulness And what smaller matter can there be than Humane Forms and Ceremonies and where is ignorance more excuseable than in things so minute and so uncertain and hard that they must all be wiser than you and I that know them to be lawful and what Unity will be in that Church and Kingdom that will endure none but such as are wiser than you and I L. 8. Your 8th Article preventeth all the objections against Ministers power and liberty while all are under Law responsible But what if the Rulers be Bishops or men that distaste your desired discipline M. We are not choosing Rulers by the sword but only Pastors to guide us by God's word and if we shall have bad ones we must patiently suffer we cannot remedy such infelicities L. But both Papists and many others say That the Iudgment of Ministers Doctrine and Ministry belongeth not to the Magistrate but to the Church M. Iudgment is as various as Execution e. g. If one be a Heretick or turbulent in Schism 1. The Magistrate is judge whether and how he shall be Corporally Punished 2. The neighbour Churches are Judges whether they will owne his Communion as approved 3. His own Flock are discerning Iudges whether he be fit to be trusted and owned as their Pastor or to be forsaken by them We must not imitate Papists in exempting Ministers from the Magistrates Government L. 9. I confess your Reasons against Constraining Infidels to Profess Christianity are undeniable and agree with the sence of the Antient Church and Fathers But the Papists and many Protestants hold that when once men are Baptized they may be forced to Communion and all other Christian Duty M. What if they openly apostatize and turn Infidels Iews or Mahometans will they yet force them to Communicate in the Lord's Supper L. No but they will put them to Death as they Burn Hereticks M. That 's their way but not Christ's way Why should they put Apostates or Hereticks to death any more than Infidels that never believed L. Because they break their Covenant and because they sin against the Laws which they consented to M. And doth not sinning against God's Law In neither Consenting to nor Obeying it deserve as bad If God by many years Preaching call one man to Christianity and he derides it to the last and another took it up but by Education and the Law of the Land and never heard and understood the Reasons of it and turneth from it being taken prisoner by the Turks which of these is the greater sinner God binds them to Believe and Consent that do not and they sin against God's Law which is more than to break their own Covenant as such But both these deserve death and worse from God But if it were Christ's way to have men put one of them to death I see not but why they should do so by the other Torment or Death is no fitter way to make an Apostate believe than other Infidels It 's known that all the ancient Churches abhorred this forcing and punishing way I have wondered at the Impudence of Baronius Binnius and other Papists and justifie Martin for separating from the Communion of the Bishops that were for punishing the Priscillianists by the sword and Canonize him as a Saint and condemn these Bishops for it and yet are for for more cruelties themselves to far better men than the Priscillianists But where Fleshly interest is a mans Religion no wonder if it have neither consistency with Reason nor Modesty L. But if none but Volunteers be Christians or Communicants most will despise the Church and it will be empty M. All that are fit to be there will come in And those few will give the Pastors more comfort and lesser trouble than the multitude of the uncapable If your purse be not quite full of Gold will you fill it up with dung or stones The uncapable will do better for themselves and the Church among the Audientes or Catechumens It is their forcing in the uncapable that hath corrupted the Church and deprived the Flock of their due privileges choosing their Pastors c. because it 's made up of men unworthy of them And doubtless if you but countenance and preferr the Communicants before the rest it will draw in more than are capable without force L. If the Excommunicate be no further punished nor forced to repent the Church censures will be despised How little will men care for an Excommunication M. This is commonly said and much of it is true But 1. Can you force men to Repent or rather Lye You make him Repent that he brought himself into your hands and into suffering But that is not to Repent of Sin. Will you tell a man before hand If thou wilt but say thou repentest rather than lye in Gaol till death we will pronounce thee absolved and forgiven in Christ's Name Who can think ill enough of such an Absolution 2. Do not they scorn Christ that say he hath advanced his Church to the Dignity of Government by putting into their hands a Reed for a Scepter and a Leaden Sword that will do nothing without the Magistrate's Sword of Steel Hath he set up an useless mock-mock-power in the Church 3. Did the Primitive-Churches for 300 years use any Sword but Spiritual Or did they find it so uneffectual and vain 4. Yea for some hundred years after there were Christian Magistrates did not the Church abhorr such a thing as forcing the Excommunicate to repent by imprisonment or the Sword 5. No man is meet to be a just Member that careth not for a just Excommunication And still this sheweth what a wickedness it is to force in the unmeet that despise God's Ordinance and the Church that they are in And then God's Ordinance must be debauched for their unfitness 6. The Sword doth the Keys much more hindrance than help when it is thus annexed to them for then it cannot be discerned whether Excommunication do any Good or none or whether it be only the Sword that doth the cure And do not they that profess Excommunication to be vain without the Sword teach men to call them as Church Governours Vain and to despise them And is it not all one as to say if any good be done
Oxford-Oath in the Act of Confinement and the Subscription in the Act of Vniformity M. I have told you fully before Not because we differ in Doctrine but in expounding the words of that Oath and Subscription 2. Were neither Arch-bishop Abbot nor his Clergy nor the Parliaments of those times of the Church of England as well as Sâ—bthorp and Mainwaring Were not the Laws made by those Parliaments made by the Members if not Representatives of the Church of England You know that our late great Defenders of the Church describe the Church of England to be those that Worship God according to the Law And were the Parliaments that made those Laws none of the Church themselves Chillingworth would not Subscribe without a limitting Profession Was he therefore none of the Church Was Bishop Bilson none of the Church Was R. Hooker none of the Church The first dedicated his Book to Queen Elizabeth and the latter is Dedicated to our King Charles the second and Praised by his Father And yet the Author of the Holy Common-wealth hath larglier than any man confuted Hooker's Popular Principles When William Barclay a Lawyer defended the King of France his Temporal Power against the Popes Usurpation of a Power to depose and restrain him he is fain to profess that the contrary opinion was so common that he was taken to speak some strange and singular thing And yet none doubts but he was of the same Church of Rome I again challenge you to name that point in which we differ in this Doctrine from the true Church of England L. You hold that Kings may be resisted by Arms. M. Not so much as the aforesaid Bishop and Doctors of the Church of England did or the Parliaments that made Church-Laws Again See our second Plea for Peace how far we disclaim it I profess that I am acquainted with no meer Non-Conformist Ministers that hold it at all lawful for Subjects to resist the King or any Supream Power by a War except in case that he notoriously declareth that he will if he can destroy the Common-wealth or deliver it up to a foreigner or destroyer that hath no right L. Sure the cry would never be for Extirpating the Dissenters for this Plot and their disloyalty if they were not guilty M. Nay if that be your argument Strangers to them say they are disloyal and guilty ergo they are so I leave you to God's answer for I will not undertake to answer you But will you use Sobriety a little further 1. It is now twenty seven years since they were ejected and cast out of maintenance and countenance and left to beg or crave their bread Long have they been laid in Gaols and fined deeply the Law laying on them twenty and forty pound a Sermon Their Goods Beds Books taken from them and they left destitute How many in all these years have ever been accused and proved guilty of one disloyal or seditious Sermon or Word I know of none Certainly it was not for want of will in the Accusers Those that by Oaths have brought them under Convictions and Warrants for distress of five ten and much more forfeitures even divers hundred pounds at once before they were ever summoned to speak for themselves would sure have sworn some disloyal Words against them had they been able And can many hundred Ministers have a fuller proof of their innocency than that they had no such prosecution twenty seven years from such a sort of Adversaries in so great Sufferings 2. And now this Plot is detected It is divers Months since and many Countries and Corporations have accused the Dissenters of it and cry them down to Extirpation And to this day I cannot hear of any one English Minister or at most not of two that is either an Episcopal or Presbyterian Non-Conformist so much as accused or named as guilty The French and Dutch Churches in London are Dissenting Presbyterians Yet no man accuseth any of them for being in Plots and yet must they also be destroyed But Sir if any one or more of the Episcopal or Presbyterian Non-Conformists Ministers or People had been found guilty would you condemn thousands or any of the guiltless for their sakes On what account Is it for their Relation to them They are mostly strangers to one another Come and let us try your rule of Justice I. Is there any Relation nearer than that of Father and Son And can any Minister be supposed to have more interest in or influence on his Hearers than a Father hath on his Son And you know that the chief man accused is the Kings eldest Son I hope you will not for this charge the King as if he principled him for Treason against himself Nor as if he were to suffer for his Sons faults II. The Judges have oft declared that many Iesuits and Papists were Plotters and Traitors and they died for it I hope you will not make all Papists guilty of their crime nor extirpate them for it And yet the Papists are Conventicling Dissenters too III. The Lords and great Men accused of this Plot and Treason how justly God knoweth were of the Church of England and shall all the Church of England be destroyed for their sakes Dr. Whitby and others now blamed by the Oxford-Convocation and Bishop Bilson Mr. Hocker c. were of the Church of England and shall all the English Clergy be accused of their words IV. Many of the accused were Hobbists and Infidels and some common ill-living Protestants Shall all the Hobbists and Infidels and ill-living Protestants be extirpated for their faults V. Many Gentlemen of some late Parliaments are accused not yet tried and proved guilty Shall all the Parliament-men therefore be extirpated as guilty VI. Some Lawyers and Students at Law are accused Shall all Lawyers and Students therefore be extirpated VII Divers of the Nobility are accused Must all Noble-men be therefore reproached VIII Some that have been of the Kings Privy Council were accused Is his Council therefore to be disgraced or destroyed IX Formerly many Judges have been guilty Are Judges therefore to be dishonoured X. By this justice you may next conclude They were Englishmen that were accused therefore let all English-men be rooted out Or they were Protestants and Christians therefore away with all Protestants and Christians Whereas I think it an unjust conclusion that because they were Irish-men and Papists that murdered two hundred thousand in Ireland therefore root out all Irish-men and Papists unless you will inferr They are men that commit all sin therefore root out mankind If it had been men that hate serious Godliness and are the seed of the Serpent and of Cain that are at deadly enmity to the true fear of God and thirst for the blood of the innocent that are accused of this Plot and if People had petitioned to have all this sort of men rooted out for it it would have fallen on more than you and I are willing to name or
Ministery to be Stewards of the house and mysteries of God and to give the Children their meat in season Luk. 12. 42. and to teach men publickly from house to house Act. 20. And is it not a calling fixed during life and ability not to be cast off at pleasure And this in those that are called by men As a Priest that hath marryed Persons cannot unmarry them and the Arch-Bishop who may Anoint or Crown a King may not Depose him because he was not the Donor or Lord but a Ministerial Invester so he that Ordaineth a Minister may not depose him till he become uncapable of the Office and if he do it doth not disoblige the Minister Q. 31. Did not the Church for 300 years worship God against the will of Princes and afterward when Arrian or other erroneous Princes forbid them And hath a Christian Prince any more power to hinder the Gospel and Worship of Christ and the saving of Souls than Heathens had or rather far greater obligations as nursing Fathers to promote them which I ask only in answer to such as pretend Law and human Authority to forbid what God Commandeth in which case saith Bishop Bilson we must go on with our work and patiently suffer Q. 32. Is it not a dreadful charge that is laid on Timothy one called by men 2 Tim. 4. 1 2. I charge thee before God and the Lord Iesus Christ who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his Kingdom that thou Preach the word be instant in season and out of season reprove rebuke exhort with all long Suffering and Doctrine Have you so little mercy on our souls as to drive us on such a Flaming Sword and wish us to be condemned by Christ for disobeying such a charge and to bid us obey any contrary charge of mortal worms Q. 33. Is the Conformists Ministery necessary or not If not why is all this stir made about it and all the Church Lands and Tythes to maintain it If yea why then is not our Labour in Preaching the same Gospel as necessary as theirs to such persons as cannot hear them for want of room and to such who say that their true necessity commandeth them to use better Pastors than many Parishes have And if any of them have a scrupulous errour about a Pastor must they therefore be Ruined Excommunicated or Forsaken Q. 34. Is not the silencing of faithful Ministers a far greater loss hurt to the people that need their Ministery than to them What if it prove my fault that all my most impartial Studies and Prayers did not serve to make me know that all the imposed Subscriptions Declarations Covenants Oaths and Practices are lawful Shall hundreds or thousands of Innocent people suffer for my fault and that in their Souls Should you for this have deprived all persons of any help which they have had by all my Preaching and VVritings this Twenty or Fourty years And is it just to wish it had been all undone and the like of many hundred others If we preach false Doctrine accuse and punish us If the Physicians were drunkards or fornicators you would not for that forbid them to help to save the sick If the Country Farmers scrupled Conformity you would not therefore forbid the Market to them and let the poor famish Q. 35. If our not Swearing not Subscribing c. be our fault as long as we preach Necessary Truth could not Lovers of the Gospel find some penalty for us that did not hinder it Is it worse than Drunkenness or Fornication Twelve pence an Oath is thought enough for Prophane Swearers and is there one in many hundreds pay it VVe had far rather be any otherwise punished so we be not hindred from serving Christ in the work to which we are devoted Q. 36. Do you think there is any such sin as Sacrilege in the world If there be is it not greater Sacrilege for me that am Ordained and Devoted to the Ministery to alienate my self than to alienate Church Utensils Goods or Lands These are devoted but for the Pastor who is Consecrated to nearer and more holy service VVhat think you of them that cry out against the alienation of large Church Revenues as Sacrilege and use them for worldly pomp and fleshly fulness to their own pleasure which are devoted to God's service but with a few confident words will prove it no sacrilege for many thousand faithful Ministers to forsake their Calling if Bishops forbid it them For what it is in the forbidders we leave to God and them Q. 37. Dare you undertake to justify at the Bar of God the many hundred Ministers forbidden to Preach if they obey you and cease their Ministery Or will you answer for all the People whom some drive away from their worship of God if they thereupon give over worshipping him and as thousands others idle it at home when all these say We Preach no Doctrine nor offer God any Worship contrary to any Word of God or in any other manner than Christ and his Apostles did or allowed Dare you give it under your hands that you will bear the punishment if we be condemned for obeying you and ceasing our work If you would were that man well in his Wits who should trust his Soul on your undertaking who are so unable to save your selves Q. 38. Should things Indifferent exclude things Necessary when Christ saith I will have mercy and not sacrifice And is neither our Preaching nor the Concord of the Churches here Necessary Q. 39. Have you thought what Christ meant when after his Resurrection he thrice saith to Peter and to others in him Lovest thou me feed my Lambs and Flock As if he had said As ever you loved me feed those whom I loved to the Death Would you unmercifully wish us to renounce our love to Christ and when Paul saith Necessity is laid upon me and woe unto me if I preach not the Gospel Would you wish us to run upon such a Woe upon the meer chat of such as do but tell us that we are not called as the Apostles and that we are under Bishops As if none but men called the Apostles were liable to that Necessity or Woe or God had allowed us to forsake His Work when Bishops please and will forbid us Q. 40. God hath encouraged us in our work by his undeniable blessing on many Souls If you take it for nothing for men to be turned from ignorance worldliness deceiving lying sensuality and fleshly lusts to the serious belief of a life to come and to the Love of God and Man and to the joyful hopes of Glory and the obedience of Christ and confidence in his salvation we take this to be worth our labour and our lives And would you have us so unthankful to God who hath blest us as to cast away our Callings Can you expect that all the threatnings of Men or the weekly reproach of Pamphlet-writers should
you seriously read and studyed what is written by us I my self have told you 1. In a Book called A Plea for Peace what things they be which Nonconformists take to be sinful in Conformity and how great and hainous the sin is which they fear and what separation is unlawful and what is necessary 2. In a full Treatise of Episcopacy I have shewed what Episcopacy we are for and what we are against and why and what Antiquity held hereabout and what we have to say to most of the Learned Men that have written for that Diocesan form which we cannot approve 3. In an Apology I have proved it our duty to Preach though forbidden as far as we are able and mens necessities require it 4. In a second Plea for Peace I have fully given the World an account of our Doctrine of Magistrates Power and Subjects Duties in matters Civil and Ecclesiastical c. 5. In a Treatise of Church Concord I have fully proved that the Primitive simplicity in things divine few plain and sure is the only possible matter of Universal Christian Unity and Concord I know not of any one of these that are Answered or any thing like an Answer to them written save that to some part of the first some meer impertinent noise was made by some one that is confuted L. We that have other Employment have not leisure to read so many tedious Writings Tell us your Case in a few words if you would have us understand you M. Did you get your skill in Law by so easie and so short a Study Or is any kind of Knowledge so easily got where Controversie hath drowned the matter in contradicting words You know that it is multitudes of Volumes that are written on the other side And it 's impossible to Answer them all in a few words And if they be unanswered they will say we have done nothing But had you as seriously studyed but one or two of these Books e.g. my first Plea for Peace and Treatise of Episcopacy as you do Law Books I scarce think you would have been long unsatisfied But if indeed you have no time to hear read and study say also you have no time to know or judge And no more censure what you know not L. How comes your Case to be so little understood if you have done so much to open and justifie it M. You may know by your self 1. Men study their own matters in which they feel themselves concerned and as for ours they think they are not much concerned to know them 2. At least not at the rate of any hard and diligent study which neither love nor necessity leads them to 3. Most are strangers to us even they that dwell near us and converse not with us 4. The rather because that as we are out of the rising way and are under publick discountenance and banished from Corporations and much from converse with men of publick place and interest so our familiarity is become fearful lest it brings those that are familiar with us into suspicion 5. And they converse with those that through Ignorance or Malice do describe us and our Cause and Books as they would have all men think of us and it is not good manners or safe to contradict them And so the notice of our Mind and Case must be received not from us but from our accusers Do you observe this method in Westminster minister-Hall 6. And how much interest can byas mens judgments common experience too easily tells us They that are uppermost seldom want applauders nor dejected men accusers Every School-boy can tell you out of Ovid. de Trist. Dum fueris foelix multos numerabis amicos Nullus ad amissas ibit amicus opes Aspicis ut veniunt ad candida tecta Columbae Accipiet nullas sordida turris aves A few serious Believers that look for a more righteous and important judgment after death do not lose the treasure of Truth and Innocency in Shipwrack it being as near them as themselves But caetera fortunae non mea turba fuit L. But if there be no cause how come you to be so odious to others M. If you that dwell in England cannot answer that your self when you have taken a survey of the quality and lifes of them that hate us and them that they hate and of their distinct interests and motives I will not answer it to you L. But whence is it that Clergy-men of the same Profession so much disagree M. The former answer shall serve to this Whence is it that the Clergy by disagreement about Opinions and Superiority have broken the whole Christian World into that state of doleful division in which in Asia Africa and Europe it lyeth to this day If you know not read the History of the Church L. Which part of you soever is guilty the guilt must needs be very hainous when the Preachers of the Gospel of Love and Peace so hate each other and perswade all to do the like and will not let the World be quiet M. No doubt but Love and Concord are so great Duties and Blessings and there is so much of Satan in the contrary that you can hardly aggravate the guilt too much If it were better for that man that offendeth or stumbleth one of the least that he had never been born or he had been cast with a millstone about his neck into the Sea what a case are these Church Pastors in that tear the Church and Preach down Love and harden thousands in Ungodliness and Cruelty and endanger the loss of Religion to the Land. L. If I knew which of you had done most for Love an Peace and least against them I should know to whom to impute our troubles M. We justifie not our selves and we leave others to their judge We have deserved worse from God than we have suffered But we must say 1. That we impose not our words our books our forms our different rites on any nor would do by violence had we power We put no Oaths Subscriptions Convenants Professions or Practices doubtful upon any To them that tell us we did so in former times we still say let them use no other so but those that used them so and we are satisfied I know not six in England of all the present Nonconformists that did so We are not for Silencing or Imprisoning them nor forbidding them to worship God In 1660 we motioned no change of Church Government which should take down any of their Lordships Maintenance or Episcopal Power but only Arch-Bishop Vshers Draught of the antient Episcopacy and thankfully accepted what the King then granted in his Declaration of Ecclesiastical Affairs 2. We never craved Preferment of them but leave to serve Christ and his Church in the Office which we were Vowed to We certainly knew what impediments hindered the desired Unity and what divisions must needs follow were they not removed which by others they might easily have been without
cost or danger We Pleaded we Wrote we Petitioned and Beg'd for Peace even for that which the King had granted And what could we do more Since then above twenty years we have laboured as we could sometime to few and sometime to more and have patiently lived upon Charity and suffered I need not tell you what L. But why could not you Conform to the Law as well as they M. 1. Can men believe what others list because they bid us Is there nothing that you or they would refuse if it be but commanded you What use have we for a Law of God then If we must disobey it as oft as we are bid that were to renounce God and all Religion and Salvation And we have not our own understandings at command we have offered them our Oaths these twenty years that we would obey them in all except at the rate of sinning and damnation 2. And if we had done as they did we must have profest our Assent and Consent to all things contained in and prescribed by a Book which we never saw For so did we suppose above seven thousand men the Book not coming out of the Press till about the day that they were so to Assent to it Aug. 24. so that no doubt they did it on an implicite trust in others except the few that were in or near London This fully shews that though almost all the nine thousand or more Ministers that were in possession when the King came in did before conform to the way of the Directory and not to the Common-Prayer Book yet there was a great latent difference between the seven thousand that conformed and the two thousand that did not L. But seeing all the stress lyeth upon the question Whether it be only things Lawful indifferent or good which you refuse or any thing which God forbiddeth I pray tell me plainly what it is that you take to be sinful in the Conformity required And what it is that you would have as necessary in its stead M. I will tell you on these Conditions 1. That you pardon me for repeating here what I have already written 2. That you bring not your self a Conscience so laxe as will take nothing for sin which men use to make light of though God forbid it and then think that our Consciences should be as wide as yours 3. That we may premise the things presupposed as agreed on CHAP. II. The things presupposed as agreed on L. WHat are the Agreements which you presuppose M. These following 1. That God is the Absolute Soveraign Ruler and hath made in Nature and in the Sacred Scripture Universal Laws for the whole Church and World And that Kings are His Subjects and Officers and have no Power but what He giveth them directly or indirectly and therefore none against Him no more than a Constable against the Sovereign Power and that he and all men are bound to obey Gods Lawes whoever are against it or forbid it L. I cannot deny this without denying God to be God and the Law of Nature and Scripture to be His Law and Word M. II. That next to his Government God in order of Nature and Time made Self-Government and Family-Government before the Government of Republicks Kingdoms or Cities And that publick Polity hath no Authority to abrogate Self-Government or Family-Government but only to over rule and use them for the common good and safety L. This is undenyable if you state the Governments presupposed 〈◊〉 M. III. That it belongs to Self-Government to discern by reason whether the Commands of Men be against the Commands of God or not which we call Iudicium discretionis by which all men must guide their actions L. Shall every man be a judge of the Law whether it be just and good How unfit are the vulgar to judge of Lawes M. They are no publick judges to decide the case for other men nor doth their judgment restrain or bind the Magistrate nor if they judge amiss will it justifie themselves or suspend the execution of the Law against them But if they must not have the foresaid discerning judgment to guide their actions it will follow 1. That they are not governed nor must obey as Men by Reason and Free-will but as Brutes 2. That Kings have Absolute Power against God and must be obeyed in all that they command e. g. if it be to curse or blaspheme or renouce God or Christ to command the Subject to live in Murder Adultery Perjury c. and so to abrogate the Law of Nature 3. It followeth that there is no God that is a Supream Ruler but the King. 4. And I pray you tell me what you will have the Subjects do in case of Usurpation or Competition for the Government as between the Houses of York and Lancaster Iane and Queen Mary c. when one saith fight for me and the other fight for me If the Subject have not a judgment of discretion to know which is his rightful Sovereign the King must be forsaken He that will stand to the command of another must judge who his Commander is L. And will you have Infants and Idiots judge of their Parents commands Or Children in their minority M. 1. Infants and Idiots have not the use of Reason and so far are to be ruled by force as Brutes And Children in that measure as they are short of reason But 2. If they come to reason and the King command them one thing e. g. what Church to go to and their Parents the contrary would you not have them judge which they must obey 3. Much more if Parents should command them to sin against God to Steal Lye Murder Blaspheme and Curse the King c. surely they must judge as far as they are able L. I cannot deny it proceed in your presuppositions M. IV. That no men have power to command us to damn our Souls or to do any thing that tendeth to it L. None will deny you that but perhaps some things may cease to be sin and dangerous if commanded M. None can dispense with the Laws of God but we grant that some things that are unlawful by some accident or circumstance may become a duty when commanded when the good of Obedience Order and Concord therein weighs down against the accident It may be a sin to go on Warfare before one is commanded and a duty when he is commanded It is a fault in a Servant to go before he is sent and a duty after V. We presuppose that deliberate Lying is a sin L. Is there any one doubts of that M. If they do not our Case will soon be decided But indeed many deny it The Iansenists name you many Jesuit Casuists And Grotiâ—â— de Iure Belli and Bishop Ier. Taylor deny that Lying is any sin when it is profitable and wrongeth none as in a Physician to fice down a Medicine L. And what have you to say to the contrary M. I must not stay
it unlawful to reproach all Churches that we see to be faulty but it is our duty to keep peace with all XXVIII VVe hold mental distant Communion in Faith and Love with many Churches that by imposing sin do deny us local Communion XXIX Though I here tell you once for all that I justifie not all that I can thus bear with yet we can submit by peaceable silence to many abuses in a Church which we dare not subscribe to and approve and use also passive Obedience where active is unlawful XXX VVe are not against God-Fathers and God-Mothers as used of old that is when the Parents are the Covenanters for their Child and their Death or Apostasie is feared for others to promise if they dye or apostatize to take care of the Child or for any Adopters or Owners to do it that take the Child as theirs XXXI VVe are so far from being against true confirmation as it is the taking persons that own their Baptismal Covenant solemnly into the number of adult Members and Communicants that we desire it and have written for it as a chief means of the true Reformation of all our Churches in the Land. XXXII VVe differ not in Faith or meer Doctrine from the Church of England as it 's in the Thirty Nine Articles but only in One new Article put into the new Liturgy of the Salvation of Baptized Infants as undoubtedly certain by the Word of God without any exception if they then dye XXXIII VVe are not against reading the profitable part of the Apocrypha as other Humane VVritings may be read sufficiently distinguished from the word of God. XXXIV VVe are for Corporal VVorship as a due expression of Spiritual And we are against all undecent expressions in Praying or Preaching and all undecent Habits Gestures or Actions XXXV VVe blame not the Liturgy for extending the words of Charity and Hope as far as there is any reasonable ground in Sacraments Absolution and Buryal XXXVI VVe are not for mens invading the Ministry unordained but believe that Senior Pastors or Bishops are ordinarily the regular Judges of the fitness of Candidates for the Ministry XXXVII VVe are not for unlimited Toleration But that the Rulers justly distinguish in Law and License 1. The approved whom they must own and maintain 2. The tolerable whom they must tolerate 3. The intollerable whom they must restrain from doing hurt XXXVIII VVe are for making true Religion as National and extensive as may be and for a National Church 1. As the associated Community of Churches in a Nation is so called 2. And as they are all accidentally united under one Christian Soveraign Though we abhor the casting out all that be not of our opinion and measure and that cannot submit to all that I here enumerate which I and others of my mind can submit to XXXIX VVe are so far from desiring to draw people from the Parish Churches into Conventicles that we would keep up the honour of them to the utmost of our power as knowing how greatly the countenance and maintenance of Rulers conduceth to the furtherance of Religion and that the publick Religion will be the common and National Religion and most will be there And if the Protestant Religion were reduced to Tolerated Conventicles Popery would possess its place and become National and soon withdraw even private Toleration as we see in France XL. VVe are not for Preaching when we are forbidden where there is not a real and evident need of our Labours XLI VVe believe not that the Scots Covenant or any other doth oblige us to Sedition Rebellion Schism or any sin nor doth disoblige us from any Obedience due to any Superior XLII VVe refuse not the Oxford Oath or any such because it is an obligation to obey our Rulers in Lawful things nor because it restraineth us from resisting Authority for we give as much to Humane Soveraignty and confess as much obedience due to them from Subjects 1. As any Text of Scripture speakes 2. Or any General Council save what they give to the Pope and his Vassals 3. Or as any Confessions that we know of of any Christian Churches agree in 4. Or which Lawyers Politicians and Historians Protestants Papists or Heathens agree in as far as we are acquainted XLIII VVe are not against the use of Synods or Councils nor against Princes using their advice for such Laws circa sacra as belong to them to make VVe believe Councils should be used as far as the common good and Communion of the Catholick Church requireth it though no Foreigners have Jurisdiction over us And we hold that if they agree of any thing conducible to the common good though their agreement be not a Law but a Contract yet the general command of keeping the Unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace obligeth all to hold such concord for the ends sake that have no special reason against it In these Forty three things we oppose not conformity L. And if yet after all this Agreement we must be destroyed by divisions the heavy Curse of God is on us and will surely fall on them that are the causes of it who ever they be CHAP. IV. A brief enumeration of the things imposed on us which is the matter of our Nonconformity M. DO you know what it is that we are required to conform to L. I know it is to use the Liturgies Ceremonies and submit to the Bishops as your Governours I know no more M. And yet dare you become our Judge If you are no more exact and just in matters of Law your Clients must pay for it Before I come to handle the particulars I will set together here the things required of us and how much of them we refuse I will tell you when I try them and give you our Reasons against them I. Whereas few of the Nonconforming Ministers were at Age and Ordained till Diocesans were put down in England and were Ordained by an Assembly of Senior Pastors which were then in possession of the Power and had many years the Approbation of the whole National Assembly of Divines at Westminster before they were admitted to any Incumbency none of these may now exercise their Ministry unless they be Re-ordained by Diocesans II. No man can be Ordained by them and admitted to any Cure that will not take the Oath of Canonical Obedience as they call it and in his Ordination Covenant to obey his Ordinary III. No man must Preach the Gospel by the authority of his Ordination and Office till moreover he have got a Licence from the Bishop to Preach and till he have got that Licence to Preach he may not take upon him to Expound in his own Cure OR ELSEWHERE ANY SCRIPTURE OR MATTER OR DOCTRINE but shall only study to read plainly and aptly without glossing or adding the Homilies already set forth or hereafter to be published by lawful Authority Can. 49. IV. No man may be Ordained or be a Licenced
place in the Ministry without Presbyters Ordination and who then durst not be twice Ordained And for Churchmen that must be strictly Religious to suffer on such terms I cannot speak against But we secular men think these too little things to suffer for M. If your consciences can call such prophanation of Gods Name such condemnation of Protestant Churches such strengthening the hands of a little thing they shall be no measure for our consciences For we believe that we must die and that there is a God and a righteous final Judgment CHAP. VI. II. Of the Covenant and Oath of Canonical Obedience to our Ordinary or Bishop L. WHat harm is there in your promising or swearing obedience to your Ordinary in things Lawful and Honest. What a man should do he should not refuse to swear or promise M. I will first tell you the words imposed and then I will state the Controversie and then I will tell you our Reasons The Words at Ordination are these 1. On Deacons and Priests Will you reverently obey your Ordinary and other chief Ministers to whom is committed the Charge and Government over you following with a glad Mind and Will their godly Admonitions and submitting your selves to their godly Iudgments Answ. I will so do the Lord being my help The Form of the Oath which they use to impose is this Ego A. B. Iuro quod praestabo Veram Canonicum Obedientiam Episcopo Londinensi ejusque successoribus in omnibus licitis honestis And little know we of What Religion their Successors will be or who will have the choosing of them I 'le not swear to I know not who The Bishops themselves also must take this Oath of due Obedience to the Arch-bishop In the Name of God Amen I N. chosen Bishop of the Church and See of N. do profess and promise all due reverence and obedience to the Arch-Bishop and to the Metropolitan Church of N. and to their Successors So help me God through Iesus Christ. L. What is your Controversie against any of this M. 1. We do not question the duty of obeying the King and all his Officers governing as Magistrates by the power of the Swords which the King may commit to them If Bishops or Lay Chancellors be made Magistrates we will obey them as such And therefore when they summon us we appear and answer because the King authorizeth them And many Non-conformists have defended the taking the Promise as supposing that the Word Ordinary signifieth only the Judge of a Court set up by the King as Supream Governor by the Sword in matters and over persons Ecclesiastical as well as Civil according to the true sence of the Oath of Supremacy 2. We do not refuse to promise and swear due Obedience to such as are our Lawful Pastors ruling the Church by the power of the Keys according to the Word of God Though we think that requiring such Oaths is an irregularity in them against the ancient Canons and a farr higher presumption than the Independents Covenant 3. We do not deny a patient and quiet submission to unlawful persons and acts of Government not owning their sin our selves and doing no evil at their command But these are the things which we are not satisfied in I. Obedience hath essential Relation to the Laws and Mandates of those that we obey And the Canons of England are the Laws by which they openly profess to Rule the Church And therefore they call it the Oath of Canonical Obedience that is of obeying the Church Government according to the Canons And when we know the Canons before-hand we know what Government and Obedience is meant And we swear fraudulently if we take not the Oath in the sence of the Imposers And they commonly tell us that this is the meaning of Due Obedience and if Godly Admonitions or in licitis honestis be put in that doth but suppose that Obedience according to the Canons is Godly and licitum honestum and not that we are left to choose which Canons we will obey All Bishops I doubt not will stand to this Exposition of the sence Now there are abundance of things in the Canons which we think to be greater sins than we think meet to call them II. We know that the Rule of the Bishops is by Chancellors Courts and other such where Lay-men exercise the Church Keys by Decretive Excommunications and Absolutions which wise men think to be sacrilegious Usurpation and a Prophanation of a dreadful part of Christs Government And Lawyers and Civilians tell us that the word Ordinary signifieth the appointed Ordinary Judge of the Court and so that we swear or Covenant to obey Lay-Civilians using the Keys And other chief Ministers can mean no less than all the Archdeacons Officials Commissaries Surrogates c. whom we covenant to obey not in civil things or the circa Sacra belonging to Magistrates which we refuse not but in the exercise of the Church Keyes III. They that think they have fully proved that Diocesans Ruling many hundred Churches without any Bishops under them are an Office in Specie contrary to Gods Word and the practice of the Primitive Church and that it corrupteth or excludeth true Church Discipline do think it a sin to conform by an Oath of Allegiance or Obedience to them though they live peaceably under them IV. They that think that by Scripture and Reason and Universal Church Customs and Canons they are no Bishops or Pastors that come in by Magistrates without the Election or consent of the Flocks and Clergy think that to swear Obedience to them is to be guilty of their Usurpation These four be the things refused in this Oath and Covenant of Obedience L. And what have you against obeying according to the Canon M. I. You may gather it from the foregoing enumeration of the Canonical Impositions Many things of a heinouser nature than Liturgies Ceremonies or things Indifferent 1. We dare not obey an Order for Excommunication according to the 4th Canon against any man that affirmeth that the Book of Cammon-Prayer containeth any thing in it that is repugnant to the Scriptures Judge that by the proof that I shall anon give 2. The same I say of the Excommunication in Can. 5 6 7 8. and many others which are after to be particularly mentioned 3. And there are many things in the Canons which we dare not practice and therefore dare not swear Canonical Obedience L. That Oath doth not oblige you to approve of all that is in the Canons no more than a Iustices Oath to execute the Laws doth bind him to approve of or execute every Law. M. We would not be guilty of an over rigorous Exposition But had it been in the days of Queen Mary when the Six Articles and other Lawes for Murdering Innocents were on foot and were actually expounded by Execution I would not have been one of the Justices that should have sworn to execute them Though a Justice
be not bound to approve every Law he is bound in the main to execute them in his place And if he know that the Imposers of his Oath did mean that he should in a special manner execute e. g. the Laws against Protestants he should not take that Oath contrary to their sence Our Canons make these things forementioned their principal part as you may see by putting them first with that strange penalty of Excommunication ipso facto And indeed it is no small part of the whole Book that we dissent from II. But moreover we dare not promise or swear Obedience to our Ordinaries till we know that Lay-men governing by the Keys are not those Ordinaries I have consulted Lawyers and some say that only the Bishop is meant by our Ordinary But I think they are but few that say so And indeed we are bound to believe the contrary because terms of Art or Science are to be understood according to the use of the men of that Art or Science But men of that profession commonly call other Judges of their Courts our Ordinaries besides the Bishops So doth R. Cousins in his Tables and others 2. And other Governing Ministers whom we must obey are mentioned in the Ordination Covenant also besides our Ordinaries Our Reasons against this are these 1. It is unlawful to confederate with Sacrilegious Prophaâ—ers of a great Ordinance of God in stablishing and practising that Sacrilegious Prophanation But to Covenant or Swear Obedience to Lay-men in usurping the power of the Keys of Decretive Excommunication and Absolution we fear is such and as to the Minor the reason of our fear is if it be Sacrilegious prophanation for a Lay-man to usurp the other parts of the Pastoral Office then it is so for him to usurp the power of the Keyes But the Antecedent is confest as to the Sacraments and the charge of ordinary Teaching and Guidance of the Flocks c. 2. Ad hominem If the Bishops take it for Usurpation in Presbyters to exercise this power supposing it proper to themselves they must judge it much more so in Lay-men L. The Lay-men do it by the Bishops Authority and in his Name and so he doth it by them His Name is to the Excommunications M. 1. The Chancellors have their Commissions from the King which the Bishops cannot alter 2. If it be so it is the worse 1. That the Bishops name should be abused to a Sentence when he never heard or tryed the Cause If this be against the Bishops Will it is a forgery if he consent it seems he trusteth his Conscience in the Chancellors hands and Excommunicateth all at a venture that the Chancellor Excommunicateth though he know not whom nor why which is against the Light of Nature and the common Justice of the World. 2. And it is contrary to the nature of the Pastoral Office to execute it by men of another Calling Either it is proper to Bishops or not if not Presbyters or Lay-men may use it if yea then none may be deputed to use it that are not Bishops If the Keys and not the Sacraments may be used by Lay-men then the use of the Keys is not proper to Pastors but only Sacraments But no man can give a just reason why Lay-men may not give the Sacraments as well as use the Keys Yea indeed the Sacramental administration cannot be proper to the Pastoral Office if the Keys be not For the â—se of the Keys is to Judge who shall be admitted to Sacramental communion and if only Delivering and not Iudging to whom be proper to the Pastor then he is but a carrier or cryer and Executioner of Lay-mens Judgment perhaps lower than the Deacon Barely to say over the words and do the action is but an outward Ministration and no act of Power at all L. But it is not the Chancellor but the Surrogate that Excommunicateth M. 1. Ask those that have been much among them how oft they have heard a Lay-Civilian say at once I admonish you I admonish you I admonish you I excommunicate you 2. Hypocrisie is but an aggravation of Sin The Lay-man decreeth the Excommunication which is the judicial act when they use a Surrogate Priest it is but as a hireling Servant to pronounce the Decree to mock the Church with a Formality 3. If indeed it be the Priest that Excommunicateth and Absolveth when no Bishop is there then they confess that the power of the Keys is not proper to a Bishop but may be validly used by a Priest. L. But what have you against swearing Obedience to the Bishops themselves supposing the Canons were materially Lawful M. III. We have nothing against a peaceable submission to them if they were proved all Usurpers For my part when I think how the High Priests were made out of a wrong line by Roman power and purchase c. in Christs time and how much he was for submission to them and a use of all that was good and lawful done by those bad unlawful intruders it resolveth me to regard bare Possession so far as our own edification and the common peace requireth But as Christ was a Nonconformist to the Pharisees vain Traditions so he was so far from swearing Obedience to these Usurpers that he oft plainly and vehemently reproveth them Many for the bonum publicum which is Suprema Lex and finis regiminis did live in quiet submission to the Usurpers of civil power here who yet would never have sworne obedience to them or justified their Usurpation That the frame of Diocesans as the only Bishops is unlawful tota specie I have so largely proved in my Treatise of Episcopacy that I must not here repeat it as long as the Diocesan party by not answering it seem to grant it I have proved 1. That this Diocesan Species destroyeth the old Species of particular Churches turning the Parishes into no Churches but parts of a Diocesan Church while they make a Bishop essential to a Church 2. That they set up a false Species instead of it viz. A Church infimae speciei which hath many score Parishes if not many hundred in it without any under-Bishop to them 3. That it deposeth the old species of Bishops and Presbyters both which were to every Church of the lowest species a Bishop with his Presbyters ejusdem ordinis if they could be had so that many score or hundred Bishops are put down on pretense of setting up Episcopacy 4. And they set up both Bishop and Presbyters of a humane unlawful sort instead of those deposed viz. Arch-bishop infimi ordinis over a thousand or hundred Carcasses of Churches and half Presbyters that have not the power of the Keys nor are of the same Order with the Bishops 5. That they deposed Christs true Church Discipline and made it as impossible as for one School-master alone to govern all the Schools in a Diocess or one Physician many hundred Hospitals or one Mayor many Hundred Corporations without
take on them to be necessary interpreters of its great difficulties If such men forbear that expounding which they forbid others till they will do it better the loss will be the less Scripture speaketh plainlier than this 2. But who giveth this exposition To expound the Law by a common obligatory Exposition is proper to the Law-makers He that maketh the words maketh not a Law if he make not the sense Judges make not the sense but decide particular Cases by it as they understand it The Canons are made by the Convocation which he that denyeth to be the Representative Church of England is Excommunicate The Pulpit Preachers nor the particular Bishops are not the Convocation and therefore have not power to expound their Canons by any Common obligatory exposition much less contrary to the express words Which way most of the Clergy went under Bishop Parker Grindal and Abbot is well known And yet now they are so far from being taken for the Expositors of the Churches sense that they are openly scorned as popular fautorer of Puritans and those of their mind called Grindalizers II. But it is the second that is the Trojan horse whose name is Legion I mean that hath many more evils in the belly of it viz. that we must profess that the three Books Articles Liturgy and Ordination are so utterly faultless that there is nothing in them Contrary to the word of God and that we Assent and Consent to all contained and prescribed in and by them L. What have you against this what is there in it that is contrary to God's word M. God's word is perfect and forbids the least faulty errour or defect If we had never seen the Book we know that men made it and that every one that made it had ignorance error and sin and can a perfect faultless volumn be made by such faulty men Operari sequitur esse They renounce all pretensions to Infallibility in the Articles of Religion L. You interpret the words rigorously By nothing contrary they meâ—n nothing so contrary as that one may not use the Books M. If by nothing they mean not nothing and if by contrary they mean not contrary we will better know what they mean before we subscribe else you may make it lawful to subscribe to any thing in the world and say that the Imposers mean better than they speak L. And Assent and Consent is expresly confined to the use M. 1. I shall prove that that is not true 2. That if it were true it no whit amends the matter nor maketh it lawful to us I. It is not true For. 1. The words of the declaration are as expresly universal as man can speak And the foregoing words to the use do speak but deâ—fine and the words of the Declaration de mediis And all Lawyers agree that when the title of a Law expresseth the End that limiteth not the sense of the words of the Law because the Means may be larger than the End. As the Oxford Act of Confinement is in the title to keep Nonconformists from Corporations And yet Lawyers resolve that it extendeth also to Conformists if one of them should but once preach in a Conventicle The Parliament and Prelates thought that the way to secure the Vse was to oblige them to Assent and Consent to all in the Book contained and prescribed 1. Therefore they ty all to declare in that same form of words and to add no other least they should make any exposition that limits them 2. And the word Assent signifieth an Act of the understanding which must have Truth for its object 3. And it is after exprest by the word Approbation whereas a man may use that which he doth not approve of 2. Oaths Covenants and Professions must be taken in the most usual proper sense unless another be exprest to be the Imposers meaning which is not here done and the words are most universal and without exception 3. And to put all out of doubt the Parliament expounded themselves 1. At the making of the Act this was debated and reasons given against the limited expressions which prevailed 2. Since then a new Act against Conventicles being made it was moved in the Lords House that seeing Non-conformists were thus far forbidden private worship they should be so far invited to Conformity as that a Proviso might be added to this Act that the Declaration in the Act of Uniformity should be understood to oblige men but to the Vse of the things required and the Commons rejecting that Proviso it came to a debate or conference between the two Houses where the Commons gave their reasons against that sense and proviso In which the Lords acquiesc't Though I was not present the Parliament-men that were reported this and I never met with man that contradicted it or questioned the truth of it II. But if it were otherwise it were to us never the better For 1. It were an ignorant reproach of the Church of England to say that they have put any thing in their Liturgy which is of no use This will Include every syllable They themselves tell you in their Prefaces what use the very Calender and every other part are of The use of the Articles of Faith and Doctrines is our understanding assent and belief of them in order to Love and Practice The use of the orders in the Rubrick is to oblige us to obedient practice and so of all the rest And to Assent approve and Consent to every thing contained and prescribed practically even to the use of them is more than a bare speculative assent L. Wherein lyeth the sin of such a Declaration M. 1. In general it is incredible as I said before in consideration of the matter and the Authors together The Book of Articles Liturgie and Ordination are a big Volumn and contain great variety of matter and that high and mysterious The Authors were every one of them men of imperfection that had ignorance error and sin And operation exceedeth not power Who dare say that any Sermon or Prayer that ever he maketh hath nothing in it but what he may assent and consent to Much less so great a Book 2. The Articles which must be subscribed as faultless say Art. 15. Christ alone is without sin But all we the rest though baptized and born again in Christ yet offend in many things and if we say that we have no sin we deceive our selves and the truth is not in us And Art. 21. General Councils For as much they be an Assembly of men whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and Word of God they may err and sometimes have erred even in things pertaining to God And are our Convocation more infallible than General Councils The Church must be exemplary in humility and is it humility to say we Bishops and Priests having written three Books he shall not preach Christ's Gospel that will not declare that there is not a word in them that is
the Church of any outward thing that I remember But you must note 1. That it is the English way of Confirmation that we speak of 2. And that it is not the thing it self but the denying men Church-Communion that neither have it nor desire it which we here dissent from L. What mislike you in the English way of Confirmation M. I must first tell you how the case stands in matter of fact 1. When Christ sent forth Preachers he endued them not all with equal Gifts and Power Tho' most had some extraordinary Gifts and Inspiration it was made tho' not proper to the Apostles yet for the most part their priviledged above all others that the Holy Ghost was given to those on whom they laid hands for miraculous acts especially sudden speaking of Tongues not learnt and Prophesying tho' the gift of Sanctification necessary to Salvation was given to all true Believers by whomsoever converted 2. When the Apostles were dead and these miraculous Insprirations grew rare first and then ceased unless in some very rare instance yet the ordinary Pastors continued the Custom after Baptism to lay on their hands as for the giving of the Holy Ghost As they did also the Ceremony of Anointing the Sick which had been used for miraculous Cures 3. The dead Ceremonies of laying on of hands for the Holy Ghost and of Anointing being used without the Power and former Effects somewhat else must be though on to keep up their reputation And as to that now in question first they added more to the Ceremony of it and Anointed the Person with Oyl and made the sign of the Cross on him thereby to signifie his being Anointed with the Holy Ghost and fortified thereby to follow a Crucified Christ thro' Sufferings And when it was seen that the Holy Ghost was not thereby given for Miracles they thought that he was given in a double degree for Corroboration And some thought that he was not given at all in Baptism that did but wash away guilt but by Confirmation after 4. Hereby Confirmation got the name of a Sacrament as Anointing the Sick also did and was used presently after Baptism for the most part and the Ceremonies of it were made more pompous and it was appropriated to the Bishop for the most part or if Presbyters did it they must use no Ointment to Anoint and Cross them with but what the Bishop made by mixture and blest to make it holy And because he could not go himself to the Sick the Presbyters must fetch all their Ointment for this also ready made and hallowed from the Bishop 5. When Infants were Baptized they thus presently Anointed them also and called it their Chrysm and Confirmation till then he was taken but for a half or imperfect Christian that was only Baptized and not Confirmed 6. Popery having turned most of Christ Ordinances into a dead Image used these called Sacraments to keep up a Ceremonious shew of Religion and to keep up the power of Bishops in that formal way 7. When Reformation prevailed the Papists seven Sacraments were examined and only Baptism and the Lords Supper found to be Christs Sacraments of the Covenant of Grace Ordination to be the Ministerial Sacrament of Orders or Consecration to that Office. Matrimony to be a common Domestick Sacrament of Marriage Confirmation and Extream Vnction to be abusive imitations of Antient Miraculous Acts And Pennance to be some expressions of Repentance made more necessary than indeed they were and Arbitrarily imposed by mans invention to keep up the Dominion of Ambitious Priests over the Souls of deluded men Tho' at first only introduced by meer Direction of Ministers to men of troubled Conscience shewing what restitution and reparations of the hurt they had done by sin were necessary and what expression of their Repentance was most fit 8. Hereupon the Reformers cast away the Sacraments of Pennance and Extream Vnction and reduced the four first to their Primitive State and Use and the abused way of Confirmation they cast off but some desired to make an advantage of the name for another end and duty of great moment which had been neglected to the great corruption of the Church And the Church of England attempted to do this reserving as much of the Antient Form as possibly they could The Adult were of old Baptized before Infants and never without a most solemn personal Profession of Faith and Repentance and absolute dedication to Christ. And that this might be done with the greatest weight and resolution they were usually taught as Catechumens till they came to understanding and resolution before they were admitted to Baptism Their Infants some brought to Baptism and some delayed till they came to Age all being left at liberty and neither Adult nor Infant driven to Baptism nor accepted till it was desired But as Prelacy grew up to Dominion all were forced to be Baptized in Infancy and at last such growing up in ignorance were all taken for Christians while few knew what Christianity was or what it was to be Baptized or what was there promised on their part or on Christs And when these came to have Children they were Baptized and bred up as their Parents were and Christianty for the most part turned into meer Name and Ceremony the Persons being mostly ignorant of its Essentials This corruption of the Church seemed to many to come only from Infant Baptism whereupon they turned Anabaptists and taught that men should not be Baptized till they seriously and solemnly professed their own Faith and Repentance But wiser men saw that we must not deny Infants their Church state and right because of mens abuse and their neglect of other Duties Baptism is one thing and Personal Confession and Covenanting is another It is the Omission of these at Age that hath corrupted the Church and not Infant Baptism which entreth them but into a Church state suitable to their infancy They need not repeat Baptism which they had but to manifest actual Faith and Repentance which in Infancy they had not That which should be done is to make their Transition into the Communion of Adult Christians to be a serious solemn work and not a delusory Ceremony That those Baptized in Infancy may learn what they did and what Christianity is as to our Faith Duty Hopes And when they come to true resolution to own the Baptismal Vow and as solemnly renew it themselves as others made it for them The English Reformers therefore did retain the Ceremony of Imposition of Hands and the appropriation of it to the Bishop and the name of Confirmation and stretcht the use of the Sign Imposition of Hands to the utmost that they durst but instead of applying it to Infants they made it the owning of the Baptismal Covenant and appointed Catechizing to go before it and call for a solemn performance of it And were it used as a rational sober owning of the Baptismal Covenant indeed in an understanding
such as he may not with a good Conscience subscribe unto let him be Excommunicated ipso facto and not restored but only by the Arch-Bishop after his Repentance and publick Revocation of such his wicked Errors L. I hope you that agree with the Church in Doctrine have nothing against Publishing such an Excommunication M. I Subscribe to the Doctrinal Articles as true because I judge of them by what I take to be the Author's meaning But 1. The words in the obvious sence are divers of them liable to Exceptions 2. And some of them about Traditions Ceremonies c. are of small moment and dubious 3. And every word that is true is not an Article of the Creed nor necessary to Church Communion so that all Men must be cast out of the Church that dissent from it And this Excommunication extends to Lay-Men who are not bound to know as much as Ministers L. What is therein the Articles that any good Man can scruple M. Article 3. Learned Men doubt of Christ's going down into Hell. Art. 4. That Christ's Body in Heaven hath Flesh and Bones is contrary to two General Councils that of Nice and that before it at Const. which it confuteth And in this they agree Art. 8. That Athanasius's Creed ought to be omnino recipiendum credendum wholly received and believed when the Damning part is scrupled by many Conformists Art. 9. Bishop Ieremy Taylor was against that of Original Sin. Art. 10 Many called Arminians are against that No Power to do good Works Art. 11. Many Conformists are against the word We are accounted Righteous before God only for the merit of Christ because a subordinate Righteousness is mentioned many Score or Hundred times in Scripture Art. 12. Many think that good Works spring not necessarily from Faith but freely Art. 13. Many think that merit of Congruity may be held and that Men by natural or antecedent Works may be made meet to receive Grace which Dr. Hammond in his Annotations seemeth much to insist on under the Name of Probity Art. 14. The said Dr. Hammond and many other write for good Works over and above God's Commandments as only counselled by God and voluntarily done which this Article calleth Arrogancy and Impiety And many follow Dr. Hammond and yet subscribe this Art. 15. Is denied by them that think Infants sinless when Baptized Art. 16. Many deny falling from Grace given Art. 17. Dr. Hammond and his Followers seem to deny the absolute Election here described Art. 18. Many good Men think some are saved that live up to the Light of Nature and yet this Article curseth them that say so Art. 19. The Description of the Visible Church greatly disagreeth from that now given by many great Church-men not at all mentioning the Bishops or their Government in it And some deny that the Church of Rome hath Erred De Fide. Art. 20. The Churches Power to decree Ceremonies as not limited here is doubted of by good Christians And they see not how that is not made necessary to Salvation contrary to this Article which is made necessary to avoid Excommunication as for wicked Errour Art. 21. Too many deny what is said here against gathering Councils witout the Will of Princes and that Councils may 〈◊〉 in things pertaining to God c. Art. 23. Seems defective about calling Ministers to them that are for uninterrupted Canonical Succession c. Art. 25. Contrary to this Article some great Church-men think that Confirmation at least is a Gospel Sacrament and that it hath a visible sign ordained by God. I will proceed no further herein By this it is evident that many Subscribers are great Nonconformists and if they speak their Minds are Excommunicated ipso facto L. You make our Articles of Religion a doubtful thing what certainty then is there of the Protestant Religion M. The Protestant Religion is the Holy Scriptures older than our Form called the 39 Articles which are a laudable sound account how we understand the Scriptures but not of such perfection that all Men must be Excommunicate that say any word in them is faulty Chap. XXV Point XXII Of Publishing the Sixth Canons Excommunications L. WHat is the Sixth Canons Excommuication M. Whosoever shall affirm that the Rites and Ceremonies of the Church of England by Law Established are wicked Antichristian or Superstitious or such as being commanded by lawful Authority Men who are Zealously and Godly affected may not with any good Conscience approve them use them or as occasion requireth subscribe unto them Let him be Excommunicate ipso facto and not restored till he repent and publickly revoke such his wicked Errors L. I confess it sounds harshly to lay so great stress on every Ceremony of the Church as to Excommunicate every one that Calleth any one of them unlawful What could be said more of the Ten Commandements or the Creed If it be a wicked Errour to mistake about a Ceremony or to account a Cope or a Pair of Organs unlawful the Lord have Mercy on us what a Case are we all in by wicked Errours What shall my poor Country Neighbours and Tenants do that few of them understand one half the Creed M. Yet 1. The Articles and our Ordination-Vow oblige us to believe and teach that nothing is necessary to Salvation but what is contained in the Scripture or certainly proved by it And that General Councils and all Men are fallible And sure they are very near to Infallibility who are so Infallible about every Rite and Ceremony that they dare bind all the Land to justifie or notblame them on pain of ipso facto Excommunication 2. Yet Grotius and Bishop Taylor that justifie some Lying are Men that deserve Praise with them and in truth And Oh! how many Thousands live quietly in their Communion who err in greater Matters than a Ceremony 3. And judge by what I have said of the Symbolical Crossing in Baptism Godfathers c. whether it be a wicked Errour deserving Excommunication and Ruine to charge any one of their Rites with Sin. 4. Was it not enough to cast us out of Ministry and Maintenance for blaming a Ceremony but they must cast us out of the Church what is Pharisaical if this be not Chap. XXV Point XXIII Of Publishing the Seventh Canons Excommunications M. THe Seventh Canon is Whosoever shall hereafter affirm that the Government of the Church of England under His Majesty by Arch-bishops Bishops Deans Arch-deacons and THE REST THAT BEAR OFFICE in the same is Antichristian or repugnant to the Word of God Let him be Excommunicate ipso facto and so continue till he repent and publickly revoke such his wicked Errors L. Mark here that And connexeth all these Offices it is not OR disjunctively So that you fall not under this Canon if you condemn every Church Office save one if you condemn not all M. That 's a meer violent unjust exposition The Government is the thing named as consisting of many
Licensed as is aforesaid presume to appoint or hold any Meetings for Sermons c. nor attempt by Fasting and Prayer to cast out any Devil c. L. All this was done to prevent Abuses M. It fell out well that they did not forbid Christianity or reading Scripture in a known Tongue to prevent abusing it And next that they forbad not Law and the use of Reason which is most of all abused But do not you thâ—â—k that they make very unworthy Men Ministers or that they change or maim the Pastoral Office when no Minister no not the wisest may be trusted to fast and pray with his Neighbours Should a Master of a Family be forbidden this in his House the Iews forbad it not to Cornelius What jealousies have such a Clergy of one another And of Preaching Fasting and Praying What if some Neighbours have some great Temptations some great Guilt some great Danger by a Plague or the like or some great Affliction some Friends near Deathâ— or some important Business of great moment as Marriage Travel Navigation c. Must the Bishop know all their secrets that their Pastor at home must know Or is he a capable Judge for many Hundred Parishes when they must Fast or Pray Or did you ever know any go to him for such a License Are not those unworthy Ministers that be not fit to be trusted to Fast and Pray with their People while the Law is open to punish all abuses of it And are not those over-subject to Prelacy that will Swear Obedience in this any more than against Preaching the Gospel Dan. 6. 5. We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel except we find it concerning the Law of his God. Chap. XXXVI Point XXXIII Of the Excommunication of the three last Canons M. THe quality of the rest of the Canons resolve me that it is unlawful for me if commanded to publish an Excommunication against any upon the three last L. What â—e the three last M. The 139th is Whosoever shall hereafter affirm that the Sacred Synod of this Nation in the Name of Christ and by the King's Authority assembled is not the true Church of England by Representation let him be Excommunicate and not restored till he repent and publickly revoke this his wicked Error L. What fault can you find with this M. 1. No Man can tell what is the Church representative till they know which is the Church real And this they tell us not either as to Matter or Form. 1. Whether the Church real be only the Clergy or also the Laity Whether the King and Parliament Nobles Gentry and Commons be all Represented in the Convocation If yea by what Law or Power And may we say that King and Parliament do what these do What need they then after to confirm their Canons And they that hold the Church Laws bind in Conscience as such before King and Parliament confirm them will bring King and Parliament under their Obedience if not Excommunication But if they pretend not to represent the King and Laity they falsly exclude them from being part of the Church 2. They are utterly disagreed de Forma what the Church of England is either it hath an Ecclesiastical constitutive Soveraign Power or not If not it is not an Ecclesiastick Body Politick And of late their disputing Doctors plainly confess that it hath no such specifying Summa Potestas and so is formally no Political governed Church The King's Government of it by the Sword which none deny they say is but an Accident of it and not Essential to the Church And so in sum it is but a meer Community or a voluntary Confederacy of many Churches that make no unifying Politie And that is to be a Church only in a loose and not proper sence as the Assembly at Nimegen was a Kingdom 3. I doubt not but Thousands of Lâ—y-Men and many Dissenting Ministers are true Parts of the Church of England And therefore that the Convocation represented our part only of that Church 4. If they be but a Community they can make no Laws but only Contracts Laws are only the Acts and Instruments of Rulers Therefore we owe no Obedience to them as being no Commands of Rulers till the Civil Power make them Laws save as particular Pastors may make them Laws to their several Flocks 5. If they make them obligatory Church-Laws as the Acts of the Convocation then it seems the Representative Church governeth the Real and the Presbyters in Convocation exercise a Legislative Power which is the highest that Bishops can pretend to 6. These being left thus in uncertainty in the dark how comes that Man to deserve Excommunication or be wickedly erroneous that herein declareth his dissent I dare not publish such an Excommunication if commanded L. What is the 140th Canon M. Whosoever shall affirm that no manner of Person either of the Clergy or Laity not being then particularly assembled in the said sacred Synod are to be subject to tâ—e Decrees thereof in Causes Ecclesiastical made and ratifyed by the King's Majesty's Supream Authority as not having given their Voice to them Let him be Excommunicated and not restored c. Here craftily in a Parenthesis they put in the King's Authority and if they mean only his Obligation on us no one of us denieth it But because their disputing Doctors take that but as an Accident we may say that the Papists themselves are oft put to say that General Councils bind not the absent till they receive them And the French long received not the Council of Trent nor many Churches other Councils L. What is the last Canon M. The 141st for so many Church-Commandments we have God's Ten being but a little part of our Religion is Whoever shall affirm that the Sacred Synod assembled as aforesaid was a Company of such Persons as did conspire together against Godly and Religious Professors of the Gospel and that therefore both they and their Proceedings in making Canons and Constitutions in Causes Ecclesiastical by the King's Authority Let them be Excommunicated and not restored c. Here again we doubt not of the King 's obligatory Power But what the Persons and their Works were I think a Point that Christians may differ about and not deserve Excommunication It seems they could foresee what Men would judge of them and no wonder tho' they had not the Gift of Prophecy I am none of their Judge but leave God's Work to himself But I must say that this Book of Canons doth no whit increase my esteem of Council of Prelacy of Humane Canons or Clergies Laws nor of the particular Bishops and Clergy that made them And that I will neither publish such Excommunications nor promise or swear to do it Tho' I know that stretching pretences satisfie some Men like theirs that own the name of Sacred to that Synod because Sacrum quod sanctum simul execrabile signat A professed and relative Sanctity may be granted them Chap.
XXXVII Point XXXIV Of renouncing all Obligations from the Covenant as on me or any other to endeavour any alteration of Church Government L. THis is now ceased at the end of twenty years what need you mention this M. 1. I thought you had desired to know why we conformed not for the twenty years past 2. I suppose that the like is still imposed on others in the Corporation Act the Vestry Act the Militia Act and the Marrow of it still imposed on us in the Oxford Oath L. And what have you against it M. First I 'll tell you what we have not against it because we are commonly here falsly accused 1. It is none of our Controversie whether this Oath or Covenant was unlawfully made and imposed both on the people and the King we deny none of this 2. It is none of our Controversie whether there be not some part of the Matter of it that is unlawful We deny not that 3. It is none of our Controversie whether it was not unlawfully taken We justifie not that as to our selves tho' we are not judges of the sin of King and Lords and others whom we have no Calling to condemn 4. It is none of our Controversie whether this or any other Covenant or Vow do bind us to Rebellion Sedition or any unlawful Act we renounce all such Obligation 5. Yea we hold that neither this nor any other Vows of our own can prevent any Obligation that the King hath Authority to impose upon us in things great or small else men might disable Magistrates to rule them and exempt themselves from Obedience by Vowing before hand not to obey 6. I add for my self that I hold my self bound by this Covenant to nothing which I had not been bound to if I had never taken it For I never thought that by Vows we may make new Religions or Laws to our selves but only bind our selves to that which God doth make our Duty L. Where then is the danger or sin that you fear M. I. As to the Obligation of the Vow on my self II. As to the Obligation of it on all others III. As to the Matter of altering Church Government 1. I am neither so blind wicked or singular as to deny the common Doctrine of Casuists Protestants and Papists that tho' a Vow be both sinfully imposed and sinfully taken yet it bindeth in materia necessaria licita Yea that if part of the matter be unlawful yet it bindeth to that part which is lawful Else a Knave might exempt himself from the performance of all his Vows by foisting in some unlawful matter or by making them in an unlawful manner Therefore if there be any thing that is necessary or lawful in that Vow I believe that I am thereto bound L. So Rebels that think it lawful to rebel will say that the Covenant binds them to it M. So he that thinks Gods Law doth bind him to Murder or Rebellion will plead Gods Law for it But doth it follow that Gods Law bindeth him to that or to nothing It is not mens false sayings that make or prove such Obligation He that will say that Gods Laws or the Kings or the Covenant binds him to sin must be punished for his Sin and Lie and yet all just Obligations stand L. But you are bound before by other Obligations to all that is good in it and not by the Covenant M. That 's an inference contrary to Reason and Christianity Can a Man of any Reason once dream that a Man may not have many Obligations to one and the same Duty or that the second Oath binds not to it because the first did you vowed your self to Christ in Baptism and you renew the same in the Lords Supper Are all the latter null because the first is valid What if you many times Swear Allegiance to the King Do none of these bind you but the first L. II. But do you think that endeavours to alter Church Government is any of your lawful or necessary Matter M. You know that there is a Law that maketh it a praemunire penalty to say that the Covenant bindeth one to endeavour any alteration of Church Government And why then will you put such a question to me All that I will say is this that as I say not that any one is bound to it by this Covenant so I am not so good a Casuist as to be able to justifie and acquit all other men from all such Obligations Let them look to themselves for my part I will be no voucher or surety for their indemnity L. III. This brings up to the other part of your Reasons and why may you not say that none is so bound M. 1. Because God never made me a Casuist to determine the case for all men in three Kingdoms 2. Because it is a new and monstrous thing for one private man yea many thousand private men to be forced to such an Office and Undertaking Every man must answer for himself before God and Man Noxa caput sequitur If I were commanded to be surety for everyman in England Scotland and Ireland but for the Peace or good Behaviour I should think it a piece of as palpable injustice as most ever the World knew But if I must undertake to answer for all their Souls in a case where thousands of Learned men have been of the contrary mind I 'll first think how to answer for my own Yet as to that part which I am certain of my self I do not scruple it I dare subscribe that the Covenant bindeth no man to be False or Rebellious against the King or to endeavour to alter our Monarchy or to deprive the King of any of his Rights nor to endeavour to change any part of Church Government which Christ hath instituted for continuance in his Church And is not this enough But whether our Diocesan frame as distinct from that which Arch-bishop Vsher called the Primitive Government be changeable or whether none of their Courts and Lay-mens power of the Keys be changeable or ought to be changed And whether no man may endeavour it in his place and calling I think a man may be saved without knowing And I think if you ask a man if King and Parliament should change the Office of an Official a Commissary a Chancellor c. or should set up a Bishop in every Market Town is it a sin against God or is it unlawful to obey them or if it be lawful to do it and any of them Swear to endeavour it in his place is he bound to perform that Oath If to all this a man say I cannot tell I am not Learned enough in Law and Divinity to resolve such cases but I am resolved my self to live in Loyalty and Peace I would ask any man that hath not put off humanity whether that man be fit to determine the case for all other men in three Kingdoms and to be a voucher for all their Souls in
Church Government as fixed must thus be Sworn to as Monarchy is it alter not our Constitution Or at least be not a perillous Innovation 4. If the King and Parliament should command Men to endeavour an Alteration e. g. of Lay-Mens Power of the Keys or the greatness of Dioceses I am afraid of being sworn beforehand to disobey them L. But the Parliament meant not to bind themselves herein M. I grant it Tho' being Church of England men the 7th Canon aforesaid maketh it doubtful But when they have bound all the Subjects in the Land and themselves among others when out of Parliament and when it 's Excommunication to charge any of the Church-Offices with Sin I think the Church-Government is fixed as unalterable I ask you Did the Parliament bind themselves against altering Monarchy or the Succession If they did then it seems they did so by Church-Government when they put it in many Oaths before that of the State. If they did not then they have fixed Monarchy no more than Church-Government by this Oath Therefore when they bind all in the same Oath from endeavouring any Alteration of Church-Government they shew that they intend the fixing of it And tho' some think it leaveth room for Petitioning I do not believe that the Law or Oath leave any Men at Liberty to Petition against Monarchy which is here conjoyned But my great reason of Non-Conformity herein yet remaineth If the faults of Church-Government should prove but the tenth part as great as is feared by many and said by those that write about it what a tremendous thing is it to make a deliberate Solemn Covenant and Oath never to endeavour any amendment of it nor to perswade any man to repent or amend If the Germans who are reported to be addicted to Drunkenness or other Nations to Whoredom or Thievery should take an Oath that they will never repent or amend nor perswade any other to it what a case were this L. I confess if the Corruptions of Church-Government should prove as great Evils as some conceive it would be a heinous Sin indeed to Swear never to repent or to endeavour to amend it The old Nonconformists thought that the frame of English Prelatical Government was far worse than all their Ceremonies and other Corruptions set together They thought it a Platform fitted to exalt Pride and Covetousness and to propagate all ungodliness and to drive serious Piety and Conscience out of the Land upon the accounts before mentioned 1. By the largeness of Dioceses making Discipline impossible and so keeping almost all the wicked in the bosom of the Church secure from the Power of the Keys 2. By putting down all Bishops that should be in all the large Dioceses save that one and restraining all the Parish-Ministers from true use of the Keys unless they will be ruin'd by it 3. By setting up Secular Courts under the name of Ecclesiastick and making it their Employment by 141 Canons which are their self-made Contrivances to hinder and ruine laborious Preachers and Men of tender Consciences and to cherish the contrary sort 4. By putting the decretive Power of the Keys into the Power of these Lay-Men 5. By setting up Pastors over all the Land without the consent of the Flock by the meer Will and Election of Great Men and Patrons 6. By driving unfit and unwilling persons to eat and drink Damnation in the Sacrament 7. By driving multitudes of good People from the needful means of their Salvation 8. By bringing good Men that grieve for all this into Odium for being against it And if this prove the case I had rather lie in Gaol till Death than Swear or Promise never to endeavour that I or any should repent and amend it Do you think it not contrary to our Baptismal Vow in which we promise Obedience to Christ to our lives end I read that the Israelites were greatly reproved for Worship in the High Places and that they seldom repented But I read not that ever they took an Oath or Covenant never to endeavour to amend I find that when Israel was made to Sin by the Calves of Dan and Bethel that they went on and amended not But I read not that they Covenanted or Sware never to amend I find that the Pharisees were heinous Sinners that by their Traditions made void the Law of God But many of them came to Iohn's Baptism and professed some Repentance and tho' obstinacy cut off the Nation of the Iews I read not that they drew the Nation into an Oath or Covenant never to amend When Christ came to save the World it was by a Covenant of Faith and Repentance And if I should see the World once confederate in a Covenant never to believe repent and amend I should call it the Kingdom of Satan and thence date our Accounts Chronological with a Regnante Diabolo as in France they did a while with a Regnante Christo. of which Vide Blondellum I do not say that these old Nonconformists were in the right nor that Bucer did no whit over-value the Discipline which he proposed to King Edward the Sixth nor that this Oath containeth all the foresaid guilt But I say If I should prove so and venture on it in uncertainty when the Judgment of so many Parliaments Lawyers Divines abroad and at home are against such kind of Swearing what a case should I bring my Soul into National Oaths especially such as seem to me to fix every Church-Office from the Arch-Bishop to the Official if not the Apparitor as unalterable in the very Constitution of the Kingdom even putting them before the State are Matters of greater Consequence than to be rashly ventured on by me Even the Long Parliament that made the silencing Acts restored not the Canon and Et caetera Oath of 1640. which bound Men never to consent to such Alteration of Church-Government by Arch-bishops Bishops Deans and Chapters Arch-deacons c. Chap. XXXIX Point XXXVI Of Subscribing and Swearing against the Position as Traiterous of taking Arms ly the King's Authority against those that are Commissioned by him in Pursuance of such Commission L. I Am sure you can have nothing against this unless by forced Exposition of the words M. I am sure that I abhor all forced Expositions and all Treason Rebellion and Sedition But here because you are a Lawyer I will come to you only as a Client or Learner intreating you to resolve all the common Objections that I may do what I do in Truth Judgment and Righteousness L. I doubt not but I shall easily resolve them all M. 1. Do you not believe that the first Clause that it is unlawful to take Arms against the King upon any pretence whatsoever doth extend also to this taking Arms against any Commission'd by him on any pretence whatsoever L. No doubt of it For this of not taking Arms against those Commission'd by him is but Expository of the former not taking Arms against
have an account of my own Doctrine in above an hundred Books of which I leave Posterity to judge L. Yes we hear what is said against you for your Rebellious Doctrine in former times M. I then gave the World an account in my Book called Political Aphorisms or a Holy Common-wealth written for Monarchy by Mr. Harrington's Provocation what moved me to be on the Parliaments side and I know nothing that they have charged on my Doctrine but the words of that Book which I revoked long ago and some Clauses in my Saints Rest which I expunged before the King came in And if my later writings as my Second Plea for Peace written purposely to satisfie them of my present judgment be not regardable why do they call me to retractations And if the Act of Indempnity have done nothing against our former Actions all General Monk's Army and the rest such that restored the King must expect the like reward if death deliver them not from mens wrath L But why should you not give over Preaching when you are silenced Have not the Bishops power to silence and degrade as well as to ordain or the Parliament at least M. We doubt not but the Magistrate hath power to hinder Preachers from doing mischief and to restrain those that Preach Rebellion Sedition or Heresie or that do more hurt than good But not on that pretence to hinder good and to forbid Christs Ministers to Preach his Gospel Bishops and Senior Pastors are Investing Ministers of Christ to ordain fit Men to the Ministry and judge of their fitness to that end And if men prove uncapable by Apostacy or Heresie or Perfidiousness they ought to do as Cyprian did about Martial and Basilides require the Congregation in the name of Christ to forsake them But they have no power to forbid any faithful Minister to do the Office to which he is ordained nor to forbid the people to hear them And if they do their Commands are nullities as to any Obligation to Obedience L. But they that give you the Office may take it away M. He that giveth it as a Donor may which is Christ but not he that only as a Servant delivereth that which his Master gives If you send a Servant to deliver a Man Possession of House Land Horse Money c. That Servant cannot take it from him at his pleasure I do not think that the Priest that Marryeth Men can unmarry them when he will If he could I think he would have more work I scarce think the Patron that giveth one a Benefice can take it away when he will which is more alienable than the Office. A man cannot renounce it himself when he will who hath some more power of himself than the Bishop hath Do you not know that all are agreed that the Office of the Ministry is as Marriage during Life and not for Tryal or at Pleasure except in case of Adultery Therefore the Papists say that Ordination maketh an Indelible Character Of this all Parties are agreed L. But why say you the Ordainers do not give you the Power but as Investing Ministers you are not called immediately by Christ as the Apostles were who then doth give it you if not the Ordainers M. 1. The Office lyeth in an Obligation to great labour and great patience as well as in a gift of power It is a power to work in a suffering state And as the Bishop can oblige no man to this against his will so neither can he oblige any man farther than Christ and his own consent oblige him Therefore it followeth that neither can he give the power farther than Christ giveth it and the Ordainers and People and Magistrates have each their part under Christ in the conveyance L. How doth Christ give Ministers their Office M. 1. He maketh a Law that there shall be a Ministry and specifieth the Office by describing their work and the necessary qualification of the Persons So that it is not left to Bishops nor any to alter the Office nor to admit any uncapable Persons into it 2. Next Christ blesseth Mens Preparatory Studies and endeavours and by his gifts and grace doth give them all Ministerial Abilities 3. He maketh them desirous and willing of the Office and Work in Love to the blessed Effects and so maketh them Consenters 4. His Providence bringeth them where their Labours are really needful 5. He moveth the minds of the Flock or Electors to desire chuse or accept them 6. He commandeth the Ordainers to Approve and Ordain those that are thus qualified as aforesaid 7. He commandeth Magistrates to protect and encourage them 8. He commandeth the Neighbour Church-Pastors to own them in their Neighbourly Communion Thus you may see how Ministers are made by Christ tho' not without mans Service Do you know how God maketh Marriages 1. He instituteth the State and by his Law maketh the Husband the Ruler of the Wife 2. He causeth their natural Capacity and Inclination 3. His Providence acquainteth them with each other And 4. He moveth them to Consent And 5. He maketh it the Ministers Duty to do his part so that the Husbands power is of God. Do you know who giveth the Lord Mayor and Sheriffs of London their Power 1. The King by Charter determineth what Power they shall have and how they shall be qualified and how chosen and how sworn and invested 2. The Citizens accordingly choose them 3. And the Recorder Sweareth them Who is it now that giveth them the Power The King's Charter tho' not till they be duly qualified and chosen The Recorder cannot depose them again No nor the Citizens who may do more unless it be in the Charter L. But what Sin fear you by ceasing your ministry M. 1. We fear the guilt of Perfidious breaking of our Ordination Vow by which we solemnly obliged our selves to diligent performing of our Ministry The Bishops put those of us on this whom they ordained who now would force us to violate it 2. Therein we fear the guilt of Sacriledge as alienating Persons consecrated to God. And we can judge it to be no better than Pharisaical Hypocrisie in them that aggravate the Sacriledge of alienating consecrated Utensils and Lands and yet will alienate consecrated Persons and take it to be well done whereas the Lands and Goods are but to serve the Persons who are nearer to God while they serve him 3. We fear the Sin of Cruelty Unmercifulness and the guilt of Damning Souls As if we were commanded to forbear feeding our Children or the Poor we should expect to be charg'd with Murdering them if they died of Famine by our Neglect 4. We fear being charged with fighting against Christ or as Enemies to his Kingdom and to his Saving Work He was so great an Esteemer of Souls and Holiness that by the greatest of Miracles he came in Flesh to redeem and sanctifie and save Men And if we starve and betray them to Satan by our neglect
Georgians Circassians Greeks Moscovites Papists Lutherans and all other Protestants c. but as knowing sincere faithful obedient c. as those in England that you revile cast out and prosecute L. But Communion in Schism is unlawful But you are accused of Schism and so are your Assemblies M. And the Church of England is as loudly accused of Schism and Heresie by the Papists and too much by the Greeks if the Patriarch Ieremy spake their Sence Art they therefore Schismaticks indeed None forwarder to accuse than the Ignorant or Guilty Judge by what I have said of our Judgment in my Search for the Schismatick We abhor Schism and have laboured to have healed the Wounds of the Church with all our power these 22 years and more And who be they that have resisted it and hate the only healing Balsam 2. It is not true that we must have Communion with no Church that is guilty of Schism tho' we must not be guilty of Schism it self If the Schism be Apostasy that cuts them off from Christ and the Church universal we must not have Christian communion with such that are no Christians But if they are only guilty of Schism from some particular Church and of Schism in the Universal Church and not from it wounding and not dismembring we must not renounce communion with such save only as with any other scandalous Sins so far as impenitence proveth ungodliness The Church of Corinth was much guilty of Schism and so was that of Galatia and yet none were therefore to renounce their Communion Was not Peter guilty of some Schism Gal. 2. I doubt there are few Churches on Earth that are not herein guilty either in East South West or North. And must we renounce communion with them all That is to commit tenfold greater Schism for fear of Schism 3. Read impartially my Search for the Schismatick and if the Prelates thus mentioned be not far more guilty of Schism than we are I despair of ever understanding what Schism is This would be the strongest Argument for separation from them and is so used by many Separatists Chap. XLVII Point IV. Of obliging the Laity to live without any more benefit of Disciplinâ— than is in the Publick Churches M. IV. THe next part of Lay-Conformity is this Christ who instituted Ministry Word and Sacraments hath also instituted a certain determinate Discipline in his Church of great use to the Church and to particular Souls And this is considerable 1. As a Duty 2. As a Benefit And no Man hath authority 1. To disoblige us from a Duty of Christ's imposing 2. Or to deprive us of a Benefit of Christ's giving But Conformity doth both these to the Laity in a great degree L. What mean you by that Discipline I thought our Church had rather too sharp Discipline I hope you mean not the Geneva Discipline or the Scots Presbyteries and Stool of Repentance M. I mean nothing but what as to the Matter the Episcopal Party write for as the Ordinance of Christ The true exercise of the Keys and the previous Acts. That is That God hath made the Church to be as it were the Porch of Heaven a Society gathered out of the Infidel World sanctified to God and prepared for Glory and therefore he would have none in his Church but such as profess Faith Love and Holiness and renounce a fleshly sensual worldly and profane Life And the Pastors bear the Keys of Trust and Government to judge of such that is who are to be taken in and who to be cast out and who to be admonished and cured of scandalous Sins And all the Members are bound to preserve the Purity of themselves and the Society in their places And therefore if a Brother live scandalously contrary to his Profession his Neighbour that hath notice of it is to tell him of his fault and if he hear not and repent not to warn and admonish him before witnesses and if yet he repent not to tell the Church and if yet he repent not and hear not the Church he is to be avoided as one that is none of their Communion But if warning perswasion Prayers and Patience bring him to Repentance the Church is gladly to pronounce his forgiveness by God and to receive him This is the Discipline which Christ hath instituted and the Christian Churches have Professed L. This calling Men to Repentance personally will but disturb and distract the Parishes Men will never endure it And that 's no Duty that will do harm M. They are not fit to be Communicants or Members of a Christian Church that will not endure it It is the Crime of the Church-Governours that they receive yea drive such into the Church as will not endure the Laws of Christ and Church-Duties and then cast by such Duties because Men will not endure them As if you took Scholars into a School that will not endure Government and Correction or Soldiers into an Army that will not endure Command and Discipline and then omit it and leave them to their wills because they will not endure it Or as if you would take Servants that will not be commanded nor endure Labour and then let them be masterless and idle because they will not endure service Who allow'd you to take and keep such in Christ's Church that will not endure either to live obediently or be called to Repentance I confess that to let all Men alone in their sin is the way to some kind of Peace in the Parish But it is not Christ's Peace but the Devils by which he keeps possession of Souls and Countries till Christ break his peace and cast him out such peace will end in endless sorrow L. What Reasons can you give for the necessity of such a sort of Discipline and why it may not be fâ—rborn M. 1. It is Christ's Law and Institution and that is the same reason that we give for our Christianity it self L. But I have read in Erastus Selden Ludov. Moulin and Prin that Christ did but tell his Disciples how they should carry themselves under the Jewish Government and use their Sanedrims or Iudicatures and did not institute any new sort of Church-Discipline M. Christ's taking occasion from the Iewish Judicatures to institute his Discipline doth no more prove that he did not obligatorily institute it than his calling twelve Apostles according to the number of the Tribes and his taking occasion from former practice for Baptism Ministry Elders c. doth prove that he ordained no such things 2. What need Christ command his Disciples to use that Iewish Government which was in use before and they could not avoid 3. Christ knew that the Iewish Government was presently going down and tells his Disciples that they should be judged and scourged as Malefactors in those Synagogues And is it like then that he is calling them to exercise their discipline in those Synagogues 4. If it were so it will hold à fortiore that if Christ
during the Iewish Policy command them to use such a Discipline much more in his own Churches L. What are your other Reasons for it M. 2. The very Nature of Christ's Church required it which is a Society separated from the World under special Laws of Holiness and Love and for special heavenly Ends If therefore it shall be confounded with the World and not separated to Christ it is no Church 3. Christ did it for the Honour of himself and his Kingdom If he be no more for Holiness than the Infidel and Heathen World is what is he better than they or how is he a Saviour or what is the Church better than Infidels 4. It is needful to save Heathens from deceit that would come into the Church and to convince them that their impure Communion is insufficient 5. It is needful to save Christians from damning deceit that they may not think that a dead barren unholy Faith and Name of Christianity will save them without a holy obedient Heart and Life 6. It is needful to keep Christ's Ordinances from falsifying Profanation If a sealed Pardon and Gift of Life shall in the Sacraments be given as commonly to Dogs as Children it is a taking God's Name in vain and profane belying Jesus Christ. 7. It is needful to bring Sinners to Repentance that they may be Pardoned and Saved 8. And it is needful to the comforting absolution of Penitents 9. Accordingly God 's Church in all Ages hath owned it as their Law of Christ's institution to this day L. But some learned Men say This was but because there was at first no Christian Magistrate But when there was such the Discipline fell into their hands M. The first Christian Magistrates finding the Church in Possession of it confirmed it and too much accumulated and added to it but took it not away Of this see a small Book which I wrote of the Magistrates Power in Religion to Dr. Lud. Moulin which may end all this dispute Briefly I ask you Qu. 1. Would you have all Infidels and Pagans baptized and Communicate without any Profession of the Christian Religion first L. God forbid That 's a Contradiction M. Shall any words go for a Profession or what must that Profession be L. It must be a Profession of Christian Faith and Obedience M. Who must try and judge of that Profession whether it be Christianity or not Is it Magistrates or Pastors L. Magistrates have somewhat else to do Else they must study and exercise that work alone for they will have no time for Civil Government if they undertake this M. Did not Christ institute an Office for it and give them this Power of the Keyes And if one half that Office cease as soon as Magistrates were Christians why not the other half and so Magistrates must Preach Baptize and celebrate the Sacrament L. It must be no doubt the Ministerial Office to judge who is fit to be in Church Communion Else they were Slaves if they must be forced to take all uncapable Men to their Charge and Communion against their Consciences and Wills No Physician Tutor or School-Master will be forced to take such Patients Pupils or Scholars as will not be ruled by him and will make make him do what they list against his Will. M. You must confess the use of discipline or else openly disown the Word of God the very Being of the Church and the Judgment of the Universal Church to this day And do you think then that to deprive the Church of this is a lawful part of Conformity L. How prove you that the Laity is deprived of it M. 1. In our Great Parishes the People are few of them known to the Priest or to one another Of the two Parishes of my last abode I do not think but there are Fifty Thousand unknown to the Minister and to each other And how can these admonish the Offenders or the Minister exercise this discipline upon unknown Persons 2. The People know that it is in vain to begin where there can be no progress To what purpose is it to tell the Church when it 's sure to do more harm than good 1. The swarm of the Vicious is so great that they cannot be Prosecuted 2. The Minister himself forbeareth it as unpracticable 3. The accused must be Prosecuted at rates which Men cannot bear 4. And before Bishops that cannot possibly do this work to one of a Thousand any more than one School-master can Try and Correct all the faulty Scholars in a Diocess 5. And Men must be Judges that will never call Sinners to Repentance with Ministerial Evidence and Love and Patience but like Secular Courts bid them Recant or be Excommunicate 6. And the Cause must be decided by Lay-men that profanely usurp the Power of the Keys And how is Christ's discipline here possible Polluted common Churches frighten away the Religious conscionable People L. Do you not before complain of too much exercise of Discipline by Excommunications M. Yes of Discipline against Christ It is not enough for your Churches to be common and unclean without true Discipline but when you should drive out the Dogs and Swine you turn out the Children Witness all the fore-mentioned Canons As I said you first force in all the ignorant ungodly multitude that are unfit then these are the strength and major part Then they cannot come under due Discipline then this grieveth Religious People and they find fault with it And then they must be taken for Schismaticks and condemn'd and ruin'd for finding fault In short what need there disputing Is it not notorious matter of fact that this Discipline is not exercised against one Drunkard Swearer Fornicator c. of a multitude and are not Men then deprived of the use of it And when it 's known that they cannot have it in most or many Parishes how are they bound to live and die without the benefit of it L. Do you think Men are bound to separate from all Churches that have not this Discipline Sure it is not Essential to the Church M. I do not think that Preaching as distinct from reading is essential to a Church but that it may be at least for a time a sorry Church without it as those in Moscovy are But I would not continue in such a Church that is without it if I can have a better It 's one thing what a Man should endure that can have no better without more hurt than good and another thing what Men should chuse in obedience to Christ and for their own and the Churches good that can attain it Do you think it is lawful to omit all Duty that is not essential to the Church surely your many humane Offices your Forms and Ceremonies your Declarations and Subscriptions to them are further from being essential than true Discipline is and yet you think that the omission of these is unsufferable Is mans accidental inventions more necessary than Christs Ordinance and Church
many worthy men such as Mr. Gurnal and others known to us were drawn in by having leave to declare that they took the impositions in such a sence as they thought Lawful as the Arians at the Council of Seleuciâ— and the Acacians drew many in to them by giving them all leave to subscribe in their own sence And though I can justifie none of this yet what ever their words were and though they were not faultless their hearts abhorred Perjury But I pray you ask your friend these Questions 1. Did none that are for separation from the Church of England take the Corporation-Oath and Declaration You know that many of them did 2. Do they ever since avoid Communion with all those men You know they do not And yet none of the Ministers Subscriptions to me seem half so frightful as the Corporation Declaration Do they not then here shew Partiality and themselves justify our Communion with the Conformists Yea when Mr. Eaton and some other Independants wrote against the obligation of the Covenant and of the Oath of Allegiance and many called the Covenant an Almanack out of date did the rest avoid communion with these L. But briefly tell me why you Communicate in the Parish Churches M. Briefly 1. Because Christ hath Commanded us to live in the utmost Love Union and Concord with all his Church on Earth that we possibly can 2. Because they hold all the essentials of Christianity which constituteth them Members of Christ's Church and no errour that nullifieth their Christianity or maketh their Communion unlawful to me 3. Because my own edification hath required it I have long lived where I could have no better Communion and after I found Communion with both sorts most profitable to me I found the Liturgy in the main fit for my serious desires and praises to God and the Preachers that I heard were profitable Preachers and if some words were amiss I past them by and the very Concord and Presence of Christians though faulty is pleasant to me 4. I lived where and when these Parish Churches were slandered by mistakes to be such whose Communion was unlawful and my constant avoiding them would have made me seem a consenter to the slanders and so to be guilty of scandal 5. I lived in a time and place where the Rulers and Laws Commanded Parish Communion and to forbear it against such commands and penalties seemeth plainly to tell the world that I hold it unlawful which is an untruth 6. I had seen whither this extream of separation had brought this Nation formerly and of late and what a hopeful Reformation it shamed and destroyed and that by such Rebellious and mad actions as made them and accidentally others the scorn and hatred of the World and have occasioned all our sufferings 7. I lived where men that I thought guilty of our sinful persecution and the danger of the land did discern the mistake of them that overcharged the Liturgy and Parish Communion and thereupon took them for a proud Fanatick sort of People worthy of all that doth befal them and think they do God service in ruining us all as if we were such And I durst not thus scandalize and harden men in grievous persecutions 8. I was loth to misguide others by my example and I doubted not but when necessity drove them to it many would see cause to Communicate with the Parish Churches And I was willing that they should sooner see these Reasons and not seem to do it only to save themselves 9. I had read the writings of those excellent men of God against Brownists or Separation heretofore who then were the Non-Conformists that did suffer so much for Reformation He that will read what is written by Mr. Iohn Paget Mr. William Bradshaw Mr. Gifford Mr. Hildersham Mr. Brightman Mr. Iohn Ball Mr. Rathband Dr. Ames First and Second Manuduction c. and lately Mr. Iohn Tombes the Pillar of the Anabaptists and for hearing by Mr. Philip Nye may see enough for just satisfaction especially in Mr. Ball 's Trial of Separation And though the case of Conformity be since made much harder to the Ministers to the Laity the change is not so great as herein alters the case of Lawfulness or Duty 10. I found that St. Paul charged the Church of Corinth as having among them men Carnal guilty of Schism slandering the Apostles guilty of sinful Law-Suits and defrauding each other bearing with incest disordered profane and drunk at Sacramental Communions some decryed the Resurrection c. The Galatians seem more to be accused than they as depraving the Christian Doctrine The Colossians faulty almost all the Seven Churches of Asia charged with grievous corruption And yet in all these no man is commanded to separate from any one of these Churches nor blamed for not doing it 11. And which is most of all I find that Christ himself who was certainly sinless held open Communion with the Iewish Church in Synagogues and Temples and Commanded the people their duty even to the falsly obtruded Priests and to hear the Pharisees while they delivered Moses's Law though he condemned and separated from their false Doctrine and superstitious traditions and corruptions These are my Reasons for Lay-Parish-Communion L. But you did not answer from such turn away and with such not to Eat c. M. The answer is obvious 1. It is the duty of the Church to cast out wicked impenitent men and this Christ commandeth them but he never bids particular Christians to separate from the Church where some such are because the Church omits its duty For then you should separate from duty from Gods Worship and holy Communion on pretence of separating from sinners 2. But for Family and Private Converse every Christian is judge himself and must refuse all familiarity with scandalous Christians which encourageth them in sin or seemeth to own it God Commandeth no man to do that which is not in his power to put a scandalous impenitent man from the Church is in the Churches power and so that command belongs to them it is not in your power and therefore belongs not to you save to admonish men and tell the Church but to put men from your table and familiarity is in your power and belongs to you Suppose the King write to the City of London to put all Rebels out of their Company and Converse its easie to understand that every one must do it only in his own place Every single man cannot turn such out of the Common-Council The City Rulers must do that and till it be done single men may not deny obedience to the Governours But all may turn them out of their houses shops and familiarity L. But they say it is a receding from our former Reformation and pulling down what we built M. The Separators pull'd it down with a witness but it is no such thing Did the Covenant or our Profession ever bind us to take the Liturgy to be worse than
sin of Pastors omitted the peoples ordinary attendance at Church and desiring the Sacrament is an obscure profession and may serve to the being of a Church tho' not to the well-being L. But some of your Non-conformists will as much blame you for requiring too little to Communion in that you demand not an account of Mens Conversation M. 1. He that truly consenteth to the Covenant of Baptism is Converted or Sanctified and he oweth the Church no account of that consent but his own Profession not nulled by word or deed And if you forsake this rule you will never know what terms to take up with 2. And as to the time or circumstances whether God Sanctified him in Infancy and he grew up in grace or when or how God wrought upon him he oweth no account to others L. 3. In your third Article again the chief exception will be against this trying men by the Minister for Communion M. I have proved to you the necessity of it ad bene esse And may I not hope that the Bishops will be for it When 1. They order that the Minister catechize and send to the Bishop such as are to be confirmed 2. That he give the Sacrament to none but those that are Confirmed or are ready and willing to be Confirmed And how can they know this without trial 3. When they know that the Bishops are not able to do it for all or the hundredth part themselves Why then should they be against it L. If all the Bishops in England be for it the Parish-Priests will some be unfit for it and few will be at so much labour and self-denial as it will cost them M. If the Bishops put or take in bad untrusty men I cannot help that Let them be encouraged to do well that will. L. But why must they make their profession before others M. Not but that the Pastors word may satisfy the Church but it is much fitter that he that is to have Communion with all should be known to some besides the Minister to be a professed Christian. I should have desired that it might be done as Baptism in the Congregation as best but that of these men we must ask as little as may be L. But many ignorant people have not words to express their own belief or thoughts M. It is not ornamental unnecessary knowledge that must be demanded of them They that want other words may by Yea and Nay make known their mind when the Minister expresseth the matter in his question And the Church requireth that they can answer as catechized L. Some other will say that you are too lax in admitting all confirmed formerly by Bishops or by other Pastors M. If we crave that each Minister may try his Flocks we cannot in modesty refuse those tried and received by the Bishop or other Pastors All Churches should live in such Communion with each other as to receive each others Members on just occasion without trying them all again And if Bishops or any do it superficially that 's their own fault L. Why do you impose the Registring of Communicants M. I impose it not but only commend it as a help to memory He that hath no more Communicants than he can remember needs it not But Bishop Ier. Taylor in his Pref. to Treatise of Repentance saith That a Man cannot take a Pastoral charge or give an account of them that he knoweth not L. 4. Your fourth Article sets Ministers on such work as few can well do and few will ever faithfully do And yet for every young raw Priest to have such power will never be granted by the Bishops or the Laity M. You may as well speak out and say that Christ hath appointed such a Ministerial office as the World will never endure Why then do they call themselves Christians This is the proper work of a Pastor as it is of a Physician to look particularly to the sick and not only to read a Physick Lecture to them If Bishops will put in ignorant lads or unfit men I say again we cannot help it nor must we for that deny the Ministerial office any more than we must put down Preaching and Praying because some are unfit The weight of this work should rather make all careful to get only fit men into the Ministry L. But shall every Priest have power to put men from the Sacrament M. If every Priest must administer it he must judge to whom It is not a common food for all but the Childrens Bread. If every Priest must judge whom to baptize so he must whom to give this Sacrament to 2. The Canons allow this as to the scandalous so we do but present them to the Bishop or Chancellour and it 's less offensive to suspend them without such prosecution If he wrong any they have their remedy L. But why do you mention no more solemn Excommunication but this Declarative one and Suspension M. Because I would ask no more than needs of men that will not grant so much And I know no just Excommunication but a Ministerial declaring according to God's word that a man hath made himself uncapable of Church-Communion and of the benefits of Gods Covenant and binding him over to answer his Impenitence at the barr of God and requiring the Church accordingly to avoid him L. 5. The main charge will be against your fifth Article that cuts off so many Oaths Subscriptions and Professions M. It 's pity that these will not serve the turn whenas they are more than Christ or his Apostles or the Church for 300 years imposed And yet must we have more even as necessary to Ministry Will not the experience of 1300 years yet teach us to forbear tearing the Church by unnecessary snares Yet I deny not but the Ordainers may try the ability of Ministers in more than the words that they must subscribe to And if any will draw up such Articles as none shall Preach against I oppose them not The greater Concord the better But we must not cause perpetual discord by unskilful and impossible terms of Concord L. But for ought I see you will let in Papists if they will but take the Oath of Supremacy and renounce all in general that is contrary to the Scripture and their Profession M. And all Churches will let in Heart-Papists that renounce Popery Who knows the heart But 1. The Oath of Supremacy is a most express abjuring of the Essence of Popery especially as extended against the Ecclesiastical as well as Civil Power of the Pope 2. And is not God's Word a sufficient Rule of Religion Deny this and you will turn Papists to keep out Papists 3. If it be if Popery be against Scripture it 's here renounced If not why should we be against it L. But should they not distinctly renounce Transubstantiation Pâ—rgatory Image-Worship Merit and the rest of their Errours M. There is no end of enumerating Errours They are numerous like Maggots in a Carcase
they ought to be restrained and there are lower punishments than depriving them of their Toleration which are for lower faults 2. But if Rulers will oppress we cannot help that and must not therefore be ungoverned CHAP. LXI Whether the Extirpation of the Non-Conformists be not rather to be attempted than an Vnion with them by these means L. IT 's long since our former Conference and now there is discovered a Treasonable Plot against the King and his Brother and a multitude of Addresses tell us that it was the Plot of the Dissenters and the Product of Conventicles and therefore â—â—ave the extripation of them all and that they may no more be trusted as having Principles were concileable to Monarchy and Subjection and the loudest cry now runs that way M. What is the Treasonable Plot L. To Kill the King and Duke and raise an Army and to Change the Government or Governours at least M. Who do they mean by Dissenters or Conventiclers L. All that Conform not to the Church of England as it is now setled by the Law. M. The Law setleth the Essentials Integrals and Accidents of the Church Do you mean every one that disliketh any one Office as Lay-Chancellors use of the Keys or any Ceremony or Form If so I do doubt most that come to Church and Communicate with it dissent from some such Circumstances L. Well suppose it be those that separate from it M. There are now these following sorts of known Dissenters called by many Conventiclers I. Those that like the way of Episcopacy and Liturgy best as here setled but yet will also occasionally join with other Churches as the French Dutch Lutheran or some Non-Conformists II. The Pacifick Non-conformists who at the King's Return Petitioned for Arch-Bishop Vsher's Model of the Primitive Episcopal Government and thankfully accepted the King's Declaration III. The Presbyterians who are for Government only by Synods of equal Presbyters Teaching joined with meer Ruling ones IV. The Independants and Separatists V. The Anabaptists who are half Arminians and half not VI. The Fifth-Monarchy Party most of which are Anabaptists also VII The Quakers VIII The Papists IX The Infidels Iews Hobbists and Atheists Is the meaning that all these are the guilty Rebels to be destroyed or which of them is it L. If all I doubt the King would lose no small part of his Subjects But you know the Papists are not numbred with the Dissenters or Conventiclers M. Say you so Do those that differ but about a Ceremony or Lay-mans use of the Keys or the largeness and paucity of Bishops Churches dissent more from you than the Papists that would bring King and Kingdom under a foreign Jurisdiction and introduce all the Mass and doctrinal corruptions of their Church Read Bishop Downham's Catalogue of Popish Errours de Anti-Christo or Dr. Willet's Chamier's Iewell 's or any such and judge And do you think that the Mass is no Conventicle or more lawful than the forbidden assemblies of Protestants L. Well But it 's Protestant-Dissenters that I mean. M. So then You would have Protestant-Dissenters rooted out and not Papists or Infidels L. We would have those rooted out that were in the Plot which the Papists were not M. No doubt but such a Plot as you describe deserveth the extirpation of those that were guilty of it But I pray you compare not the innocency of Papists in their Principles with the Protestants Or read Bishop Barlow's and Hen. Fowlis's Books and Prin's History of Bishops Treasons and judge as you see cause But it 's none of my business now to accuse the Papists Do but grant that the innocent should not suffer for the crimes of the guilty and we are agreed L. But is it not justly supposed that the whole Party is guilty of those Principles which have caused particular mens rebellions and that it is their Preachers and Conventiclers that have caused all M. You that are a Lawyer should know somewhat of the Rules of Iustice or Humanity at least Come on and let you and I consider soberly of the case And first to your face I challenge you to name and prove any the least difference between the Non-conformists who sought for Concord at the King's Restoration or the party of meer Non-Conformists and the Protestants of the Church of England in their Principles about the Power of Princes and the Subjection and Patience of the People Name any difference if you can L. You would make one believe that great Numbers are inhumanely impudent that charge them with such heinous difference if there be none M. Why do you not name the difference if there be any Contrarily 1. We all take the same Oaths of Allegiance and Supremacy 2. We Subscribe all the same Articles of Religion about the Power of Magistrates 3. We have often professed our consent to all that is written for Magistracy and Subjection in all the Scripture in any General Council save what is for the Papal Tyranny over Princes and People or in any Confession of any Christian Church Greek Papist or Protestant that ever we saw and for all that for the Power of Kings but not all against it which the generality of Fathers Historians Philosophers Politick-writers Lawyers Canonists or Divines are for And is not all this yet enough 4. I have oft told you where e.g. Bishop Andrews in Tortura Torti Sir Fran. Bacon Lord St. Albans and many others have vindicated the principles of the English Non-conformists as the same with the Church's in point of Loyalty against the Papists accusations L. But do not you know who wrote the Political Aphorisms or Holy Common-wealth condemned lately by the Oxford Convocation M. And do not you know 1. That the Author had never leave to confute his accusers about it 2. Do you not know that he hath divers years ago written a large Book called his Second Plea for Peace fully opening the Principles which he and his Consenters hold and no man hath writteâ— one word against any of them that I hear of to this day Is this fair dealing then to silence what at large he owneth and name only a writing 29 years ago which he never was heard about 3. Do you not know that the Famously Learned Tho. White a Papist wrote at the same time the like Doctrine and will you charge that on the Party of Papistâ— 4. The Historians Rule is Distingue de temporibus Do you know in what times that was written And know you not that few men then living wrote and spake more plainly against the Usurpation than he did 5. And you see that the Oxford Convocation condemn the writings and principles of the Doctors of the Church of England as well as others And as for Knox and Buchanan we are no more guilty of their words than of Iewell 's Bilson's Hooker's Laud's or any such L. But if you differ not from the Church of England in Principles of Loyalty why do you not take the
and plain It is the Vnnecessary things that are most controvertible and doubtful There are many Circumstances that are so Necessary to actions that they cannot without them be performed e. g. He that will Preach must open his mouth he must speak audibly he must use a Language understood he must have some capable Place and convenient Time Psalms must be sung in some Tune c. some Clothing some posture of Body must be used and all men know that to choose these according to the general Rules of Charity Edification Order and Decency belongs to the Guides of the Assemblies And where do you see any great division about any such things as these except in cases of accidental scandal And if any should be so childish or ignorant as to think it unlawful e. g. to be Vncovered or to Kneel at Prayer due Instruction and gentle Rebuke may easily cure such weakness and is meeter than an extirpation If any were so silly that they scrupled e. g. singing our Metre or Tunes of David's Psalms but are only for the Cathedral singing of the Prose it 's fitter to let them be silent or let them go only to Cathedrals than to Excommunicate or Destroy them and if any be so weak that they think a Lawful Form or Gesture unlawful it 's fitter if they cannot be convinced to let them be silent or Worship God among themselves in another Form or Gesture than to Excommunicate or Extirpate them But what are these easy intelligible Circumstances to all the Ceremonies unnecessary even in genere What are they to the Vows of God-fathers without the Parents or to the dedicating Symbol of the Cross or to adhering to a bare Reader when the next Parish hath an able Teacher whom the ignorant have great need to be instructed by to say no more now of all the Oaths Declarations Subscriptions Covenants and Professions required of Ministers I again say therefore if you extirpate all Subjects that cannot unite with you in all things required by the Rubricks and Canons you will wrong the King by weakning his Kingdom and robbing him of more of his Subjects than He or the Welfare of the Land can spare And you will keep the Kingdom in a state of division and like Antioch that was so oft and terribly shaken by Earthquakes that it was in continual danger of ruine and even honest â—rajan lodging there did hardly scape through a window while the falling houses kill'd his Souldiers And the Dissenters are not all of one mind and temper All that are wise and good will suffer patiently and peaceably for I incline to think that the expositors mistake who apply Soloman's words to Sufferers Oppression maketh Wise men mad and that as some Criticks tell us it rather meaneth Rulers that an affectation of an oppressing power and the exercise of it maketh wise Rulers forget the very obvious Reasons of Morality and Interest and to act as men distracted But there be Dissenters of dangerous Principles which are fitter to be restrained than by dâ—speration to be enraged as hap is the Behmenists and Quakers are against War and the old Anabaptists were so reported but some of them have shewed a contrary judgment but it 's known past doubt that the Papists are a sort of Dissenting Conventiclers who have so strong a back beyond Sea to encourage them and are so instructed by multitudes of learned Clergy-men and Friars and so taught by General Councils which are their very Religion that many of them will think it merits Heaven to kill such Kings as would extirpate them King Iames is deeply censured by some for doing so much as he did towards a Toleration and for what the French Bishop of Ambrun writes of him But for my part I verily believe that he did it in fear to secure his life when Queen Elizaâ—eth's death had been so oft attempted and when two great Papist Kings of France had been murdered because they were not zealous enough for the Pope and that so desperately by single men that did it to merit Heaven and when he had so narrowly escaped the horrid Gun-powdâ—r Plot and when they still told him that he should not escape what wonder if he were afraid And so great confidence have the Papal Clergy in this terrifying of Kings as in constant danger of death if they be against their Church that the Pope and his close Adherents could never to this day be procured to disown the Decree of Lateran and other Councils for Deposing Excommunicate Heretick Princes no nor to deny the lawfulness of killing such yea even in France Perron himself their Learned Cardinal so defends the Pope's power of Deposing Kings that deserve it that in his Oration to the States he professeth That if it be not true the Pope is Anti-Christ and the Church Anti-Christian that hath so long owned and practised it L. You seem to intimate in all this that you would have the Papists Tolerated for fear least they should kill the King and so the worse that Men and their Principles are the more they must be Tolerated for fear of them But who lived in greater safety than Queen Elizabeth who supprest them even when the Pope had Excommunicated her M. I would have the King and Kingdom Church and State secured from a Foreign Iurisdiction of Pope or Prelates and to that end I would have Papists kept out of Government Civil Military or Ecclesiastick and I would wish that the King. 1. By the Vnity of his Subjects 2. By Navies and Military provision 3. And by just Confederacies abroad be still so strong as not to fear the force of Foreigners and these things being secured without fear of any mens censure I say 1. That I would have all Men used as Men and all Peaceable-men as Peaceable be they what they will. 2. I would have no hurt done to any Papist for his Religion but Defensive that is such as is necessary to the forsaid Ends viz. to save King and Kingdom from a foreign Jurisdiction and from Invasion and to save the Souls of the People from subversion by unreasonable liberty of Seducers 3. I would not have punishments excessive that shall drive multitudes into desperation Lest undone desperate men be carried to Revenge or to think Treason lawful when they can no otherwise be saved from death and ruine Man hath not a despotical power over all passion And some passions do almost necessitate errour of Judgment or else sudden Action against Judgment Take the most meek conscientious man that knoweth the evil of Revenge and try his patience by buffetting him and it 's two to one but passion will make him strike you again Much more if you buffet him twenty year every day patience may be overcome at last There is scarce any Creature Beast Bird or Venmin but will use all the resistance it can in case of hurt and fear of death The Devil could say Skin for skin and all that a Man hath
much against it And what Learned men wrote against it read but Mich. Goldastus his many Volumes of Collections and you may see Yea the Papists are not agreed of the very essential Form and Constitution of their Church and therefore are indeed of several Churches One Party thinks that the supremacy is in the Pope another that it is in a General-Council and a third that it is in the Pope and General-Council agreeing and yet all these so far bear with one another as to cover over the difference with the Name of one Church and to repute each other as True Roman Catholicks Yea more it is by an Allowance of Dissenters or different ways of Worship that the Pope doth chiefly keep up 〈◊〉 Kingdom When any Religious people have fallen into a dissatisfaction with the loose Discipline and Conversation of the Bishops and their Churches the Pope alloweth them to set up by themselves and exercise a stricter Discipline Worship and Conversation of their own devising which he alloweth and no Bishop shall have power to impeach And thus he keepeth them in dependance on himself as the only Defender of their humours inventions and liberties of different ways On such accounts there are multitudes of Sects among them under the name of Friars and Fathers and Sisters c. The Benedictines Augustinians Dominicans Franciscans Iesuits Carthusians c. And all have their several ways of Discipline but it sufficeth that all depend upon one Pope In Rome it self Philip Nerius being a Serious Religious man was unsatisfied with the dead formal way of the Bishops and Mass-priests and to bring men to knowledge and seriousness in Religion he borrowed a Church and set up a Lecture or Course of Serious Extemporate Worship almost like the exercise called Prophecying that Arch-Bishop Grindal was for and the Lord St. Albans Bacon writes for Four Zealous men spent the whole day one in Extemporate praying and one in Preaching and Expounding Scripture and one in telling the people the History of the Church and the Lives and Miracles of Saints and one in Praying again just like those here hated as extemporate Puritans The Bishops said they were proud hypocrites that drew crowds of people after them for reputation of sanctity and they persecuted Nerius and accused them to the Pope and silenced him The silencing Bishop was presently struck with death and Nerius went on Baronius being his second The crafty Pope instead of calling them Fanatick Rognes and Rebels thinks it policy to turn this stream of Pious Zeal into his own channel to drive his own Mill and he rescueth them from the Prelates and alloweth their Exercises and calleth them by the name of the Oratorians and honoureth the leaders so that he drew them to depend on him and Baronius to write those many great Volumes of Ecclesiastical History which have done Rome greater service than any one Writer that I know of in the world and to this day the Oratorians are the most sober Puritan Papists Thus did he make use of the Sectarian singularity of Ignatius Loyola a Souldier turned to Superstition allowing them as others to set up by themselves from under the power of the Bishops in dependance on the Pope alone whereby he hath mastered Emperours and Kings and Kingdoms and made great attempts on Abbassines Greeks yea on Congo Iapan China and the Heathen World. And I have credibly heard that Dr. Tho. Goodwin Philip Nye and Dr. Owen the Leaders of our Independants did tell the King that as the Pope allowed these orders of Religious parties in meer dependance on himself without subjection to the Bishops all that they desired was not to be the masters of others but to hold their own liberty of Worship and Discipline in sole dependance on the King as the Dutch and French Churches do so they may be saved from the Bishops and Ecclesiastical Courts 2. But further Do you forget that the Spaniards by their sacred Cruelty and Inquisition have lost the Low Countries and had almost lost the seventeen Provinces 3. And do you not know that ever since the days that the Arrian Gothes possessed Spain they have been like Ireland a blind superstitious People whose Ignorance most fitteth them for such a kind of Concord And is there not a Concord in their way among the enslaved ignorant Muscovites and among the Turks and many Heathens Satan himself is against the dividing of his Kingdom 4. And do you think that the effect of Spanish and Italian Tyranny and Concord doth answer the cost The Cruelty of their Inquisition hath made their names as odious as of Cannibals or Wolves insomuch that the Lord Bacon thought that an Invasive War against them as the enemies of mankind that violate the Laws of Nature and Nations was just And the many millions that they most cruelly murdered and tormented in Mexico Peru Hispaniola c. among whom were divers Kings do tell the World what are the fruits of their Catholick fury and Arbitrary Government Their Arch-bishop Barth de Casa and their Jesuit Ioseph Acosta eye witnesses of undoubted credit report that which renders them liker devils than men And Gage that lived there among them seconds it And it was no small infamy to their King Philip that he put to death his Son and Heir Charles Are these the patterns that you would have us imitate And as for Italy 1. Read of all their Histories and then name that Country on earth if you can that for many Generations hath been infested with so much Civil War and Blood as Italy hath been yea Rome it self 2. And since policy hath setled it of late in Peace what a Peace is it and of what effect It is said by travellers that no Country more aboundeth with Atheists and Infidels that are indeed of no Religion And truly if it be God and Conscience that you would have banished out of England and Infidelity Sadduceism Hobbists Malignity Drunkenness Whoredom Perjury that you would have take the place I dare say that the Devil will not fight against such Concord but will promote it withal his policy and power by himself and all his agents Ecclesiastical Civil and Military 4. Yet further Why look you not on all the rest of the World as well as Spain and Italy Indeed Iapan restored Concord but it was by so devilish and cruel Torments of Christians and those that would not accuse them as rendreth their names odious to mankind of which Varenius will satisfy you But what France what Ireland and others have got by cruelty I have told you before And though I am far from justifying the Hungarians men that I know not or their case for flying to the Turks for help do you think that the Countries now ruined by War and the many thousands in Austria Silesia Moravia and Hungary killed and taken Captives and the thousands killed in Fight and the Famine that the next year is like to come on the ruined Countries where
by Church-Government it is by the Magistrate's Sword and not by ours by the Keys 7. And is it not then ridiculous contradiction to dispute so hard about church-Church-Power and against the Presbyters claim when you confess that it is an useless shadow that you dispute for and it 's not it but the Sword that doth the deed 8. Is it not an odious defacing of Princes and Magistrates to say That they are bound to Imprison and Ruine a man as a meer Lictor or Executioner of the Judgment of the Clergy or of a Chancellor without ever hearing or trying his Cause and to punish him again because they punisht him before or because he hath not got their pardon 9. If Excommunication be grosly unjust as against Christs Members for doing their duty or for common humane infirmity they do well that set by it no more than it deserveth and pretend not to repent when they do not nor cannot nor ought to repent L. Though you call it no Punishment to keep all the Non-Communicants from publick power and trust I think it will pass for a notable Penalty M. I grant them as much as I can as knowing how little they will yield to and indeed it 's my opinion that to deny all Non-Communicants Magistracy and publick Trust would be to Reform the Common-Wealth in the Foundation if the Keys were but justly exercised But then by this I exclude none but the Intolerable that Neither Communicate with the Approved or the Tolerated Churches L. But Rulers will turn this against you and shut out the Tolerated with the Intolerable M. I cannot help that Must I not tell men what is Right because they will do Wrong L. But you are for having all the Subjects forced to be Catechised and to be Auditors And do you think that this will not force Non-Conformists to hear against their Consciences M. I say not that they should be forced to hear in the Parish Church but either in a Parish Approved or a Tolerated Church How have they a Toleration that may not hear their Tolerated Pastors And he that is not for hearing at all is not to be Tolerated And indeed if those that are no Members in Communion of any Church but meer Catechumens or Auditors should be forced to hear in their own Parishes ordinarily if there be meet Teaching I oppose it not L. But is it noâ— as injurious to force men against their Consciences to Hear as to Communicate M. No the Case is greatly different Nature bindeth all men to learn that they may know what is good or evil to themselves Learning and Knowledge is the common Duty and Interest of mankind and though no man can be forced to Believe and Repent he that is forced to Hear may hear that which may make him Voluntarily Believe and Repent You must force your Children to Learn but not to Communicate I told you that to give a man the Sacrament is to give him a seal'd Pardon and Gift of Christ and Life which no unwilling man is capable of but he may be capable to Hear and Learn And this being only to those that are refusers of all Church-Communion or are uncapable and are in none either Approved or Tolerated what Conscience can such pretend against hearing or against being restrained from crimes and profaning holy things or reproaching Religion though they be not constrained to what they are uncapable of L. I am fully satisfied that your way of dividing all the Subjects into the Approved the Tolerated and the Intolerable is of absolute necessity And to conclude I am satisfied that you Non-Conformists have a Cause so good that you do well to suffer for it but were I in your case I know not what I should do my self The Flesh and World are strong and it 's easier to be convinced that one should be a Martyr than to submit to Martyrdom God be merciful to our weakness M. He trusteth not Christ that thinks he shall be a loser by him and he that will save his life from him by sin shall lose it and he that loseth it for him shall save it L. X. Your 10th for some Toleration will never be endured though the truth is your Reasons for it are unanswerable and your Limitations so strict as prevent most of the Objections that might be made against it M. God's Law requireth forbearing and forgiving one another and receiving the weak in Faith. And they that cannot Tolerate the Tolerable methinks should fear the thoughts of death lest then God will not Tolerate them but cast them out as they cast out his Children L. I confess you convince me that know what most Patrons in England are that it is unfit that all the Peoples Souls should be so far at the mercy of those Patrons that seem to care but little for their own as that no man must have any other or better Pastor than they will choose for him and that all mans duty to care for his Salvation and all the judgment of the Church of Christ from the Apostles dayes till a few hundred years agoe should wholly give place to the pretended right of any fellow that can buy an Advowsoâ— or Presentation And it were to be wisht that it were wholly taken from them and left to the Clergy and People alone the Magistrate being Iudge whom he will Approve or Tolerate But there is no hope that Patrons will let go their supposed right if an Angel from Heaven should speak against it but in all reason they should grant the Communicants that small consequent Vote of Consent or Dissent that you pleaded for but if they will not do that they should give them leave to go to another Parish or to choose a Tolerated Pastor whom they will maintain But men are so set on their own ways that they banish all sense of others case and of what conduceth to the common good M. We can but bring the truth to light and shew a self-wounding people the Balsam that must heal them and stay till God will give them a heart to use it L. But you are so careful not to offend them by â—otioning 〈◊〉 wide a Toleration that I doubt it will do little good For 1. some will scruple some of the Subscriptions or Oaths which you grant shall be imposed on them 2. If all the Tolerated must be responsible for their Doctrine and Ministration it 's two to one but the Rulers to whom they must give account will be so contrary to them that they will have no peace or safety M. How would you have these dangers and inconveniences be avoided An unlimitted Toleration of the Intolerable is it self Intolerable and you can devise no safer limitation The engagements which they are to take tell you the Terms of Toleration and if men will-Preach against those Terms that is against the Christian Faith or the Holy Scripture or their Allegiance to the King or if they use their Meetings to destroy Love and Peace