for that I say many such returned to professe the Gospell againe as members of the Church and were receiued For saide the Donatists the Church is holie consisting of such as be called foorth and separated from the vnpure and wicked world and therefore no separation being made but such villanous traitors so vile Idolaters and their childrē being communicated withall all your assemblies through this mixture are none other before GOD but heapes of abominable vncleane persons Your teachers are the sonnes of Apostates and traitors and no Ministers of Christ Now looke vpon the Donatists of England Antichrist hath béen exalted according to the prophesie of S. Paule he hath sate in the Temple of God boasting himselfe as God persecuting and murthering Gods true worshippers He is disclosed by the glorious light of the Gospell his damnable doctrine cursed Idolatrie and vsurped tyrannie are cast foorth of this land by the holie sacred power of our dread Soueraigne Ladie Quéene Elizabeth whom God hath placed settled vpon the Throne of this noble Kingdome The true doctrine of faith is published and penalties are by lawes appoynted for such as shall stubbernlie despise the same Our Donatists crie out that our assemblies as ye may see in their printed bookes and that the people were all by constraint receiued immediatlie from Idolatrie into our Church without preaching of the Gospell by the sound of a Trumpet at the Coronation of the Queene that they bee confused assemblies without any separation of the good from the bad They affirme also that our Ministers haue their discent and ordination and power from Antichrist and so are his marked seruants Hereupon not vnderstanding the manifest Scripture that the Apostasie hauing inuaded the Church it continued still euen then the Temple of God in which Antichrist did sit and that the verie Idolaters were within the Church were sealed with the signe of baptisme professed Christ in some points rightlie their children from ancient discent being within the couenant of God and of right to bee baptized the Ministerie of Christ so farre remaining as that it was the authentick seale which was deliuered by the same in a mad furie like blind hypocrites they condemne the reformation by ciuill power and purging Gods Temple by the authoritie of Princes because the Church of Christ is founded and built by the doctrine of the Gospell Herein they are deceiued that they imagine the Princes take vpon them to compell those to bée a Church which were none before whereas indeed they doo but compell those within their kingdome ouer whome the Lord hath set them which haue receiued the signe of the couenant and professe themselues to bee members of the Church accordinglie to renounce and forsake all false worship and to imbrace the doctrine of saluation What other thing did Iosias and other holie Kings of Iuda when they compelled the multitude of Idolaters which were the seede of Abraham and circumcised to forsake their Idolatrie and to worship the Lord It is most cléere also that where the reformation of the Kings was not perfect as appeareth in the bookes of the Kings and Chronicles yet all the foulest things being abolished and the substance of trueth brought in they were reputed godlie Churches where many were false brethren and open offenders The Brownists blinded with their swelling pride and not séeing the euident matters of the Scriptures without all order of that holie discipline of Christ accuse condemne and forsake our Churches vnder the appearance of feruent zeale and rigorous seueritie against all sinne not inferiour to the Donatists as if they were the onely men that stood for Christ and his kingdome they crie out aloude and proclaime all the Ministers of our Churches to be Antichristian the sonnes of the Pope false Prophets Baals Priests that prophesie in Baal and pleade for Baal persecutors of the iust bearing the marke the power and life of the beast because they say our ordeiners bee such They say wee haue no word of God no Sacraments nor true Church but that all is vtterlie polluted and become abominable our assemblies they call the very Synagogs of Antichrist vtterlie fallen from the couenant of God and all that ioyne with them through the pollution of open sinners which are not cast foorth and therefore they haue separated themselues and crie aloude vnto others to doo the same if they will be saued What rule of discipline haue they obserued in this Haue these things béen brought foorth scanned discussed and iudged in the Synods of the learned Pastors and teachers of the Churches Nay but euen as Augustine saith of the other furor dolus tumultus furie deceipt and tumult do beare the sway Then I conclude that in this poynt of accusing condemning and manner of separating themselues from the Church the Donatists and the Brownists doo agree and are alike Some man will here replie that I build vppon a weake ground or rather vpon the sand in prouing the Brownists and the Donatists to bée all one because they are alike in accusing and condemning the Churches and separating themselues from the same For the matter resteth not simply vpon the actions but whether there were iust cause The question will bee whether the Brownists doo that iustlie which the Donatists did vngodly For the Donatists did accuse the Churches and Ministers falsely condemned them most wickedly and therefore their separation could not bee good because it was from the true Churches of Christ but now if the Brownists obiect open and manifest crimes such as cannot be denied their case doth differ farre May not a man separate himselfe from those assemblies where he seeth open sinners suffered on heapes to remaine in the bosome of the Church and where idolatries blasphemies and abominations are committed where the Ministers and gouernment be Antichristian but he must bée a Donatist Moreouer it is certaine the Donatists did condemne all Churches in the world the Brownists doo condemne onely the assemblies as they generally stand in England which is a very great difference The Donatists hold that the Sacraments or the efficacie of them doth depend vpon the worthines of the Minister the Brownists are not of that mind The Donatists did rebaptize the Brownists doo vrge no such thing It may be also they are vnlike in some other things if it be so why should they be termed Donatists Indeed if there be such differences the Brownists haue great wrong to bee called Donatists and to bee condemned with so wicked a sect But what if it fall out otherwise and that it be shewed and prooued manifestlie that they be all one in these things Shall wee not then say they be euen brethren shall they not stand or fall with the Donatists shall they be vngodlie Schismatickes and not these I will procéede from poynt to poynt to compare them together that it may appeare whether there be difference Touching the first it is most true that the Donatists did accuse and condemne
A Plaine Declaration that our Brownists be full Donatists by comparing them together from point to point out of the writings of Augustine Also a replie to Master Greenwood touching read prayer wherein his grosse ignorance is detected which labouring to purge himselfe from former absurdities doth plunge himselfe deeper into the mire By George Gyffard Minister of Gods word in Maldon BY PEACE PLENTY BY WISDOME PEACE TO AT LONDON Printed for Toby Cooke dwelling at the Tygers head in Paules Churchyard 1590. TO THE RIGHT HOnorable Sir William Cecill Knight of the Garter Baron of Burghley Lord high Treasurer of England and Chauncellor of the Vniuersitie of Cambridge Grace and peace I Published a Booke Right Honourable against the Brownists who complaine of hard dealing and not onlie they but others in that I haue termed them Donatists and charge them with sundrie foule matters And hauing now receiued from them an answer vnto one part of that my booke I haue also framed this replie In which I first set downe from point to point out of the writings of the holie Father Augustine with what Scriptures and arguments it was defended and so compare our mens writings and doings with the same They must for this chuse either to affirme that the Donatists had the truth and the churches were perished or else shewe some materiall points of Donatisme which they doo not hold And then in the latter part of this my booke I answer to that which is published now by them against read prayer As I was bold to present the former vnto your Honor so do I also humblie offer this presuming vpon your Honors fauourable acceptation And thus I beseech the Lord God to blesse and prosper your Honor. Amen To the Reader GOod Christian reader I published a booke against the Brownists whom I haue in the same termed the Donatists of England How farre of I was from purposing anie such thing at the first and how I was drawne into it afterward I haue in that former booke truly reported And for warrant of my doing before the Lord I had no doubt but that it should bee an acceptable seruice to Christ notwithstanding when I respect the waightines and necessitie of the worke I haue alwaies wished and do wish that some man of greater learning might deale against thē Neither as yet am I cast into any thoughts of doubting by the mislike or fault finding of some in all places which are no Brownists But I am rather thrust forward by beholding that weakenes of iudgement and want of vnderstanding not in a feaw touching the foulnes of Donatisme and by the sight of such nerenes of multitudes vnto the danger which before I coulde not suspect Now touching the faultes which are found which causeth the mislike they are partelie for the matter it selfe and partlie for the manner of dealing both in it as also towards the persons themselues against whome I write In the matter some haue found fault as though I should stand to cleere to iustifie al things not onlie in the Booke of Common praier but also in the calling and ordination of our Ministers and in our Church gouernement others affirme that I haue diminished the faults which are esteemed to be in these and made them lighter at the least by not reproouing them The first sort I cannot but meruaile at seeing I haue in that my former booke set downe expressie in these words that the matter in question betweene the Brownists and me is not about the controuersie in our Church as whether there be imperfections corruptions and faults in our Worship Ministerie and Church gouernement nor how many great or smal but whether there be such heinous enormities as destroy the verie life and being of a true Church and make an vtter diuorse from Christ I doo then lay open the state of this question so plainelie as I know not how to make it more plaine now vnles I should run through euerie particular which wee deale in which I thought to be needlesse but now I will a little stand vpon it They reckon Romish fasts Ember dayes Saincts eues and Lent Idoll feasts as Alhallowes Candlemas seuerall Ladie daies Saincts daies dedicating Churches vnto Saints Comminations Rogations and Purifications Tithes Offerings Mortuaries howsling the sick with the Sacrament absolution and blasphemous dirges and funerall Sermons ouer and for the dead Corrupt manner of administring the Sacraments the Font the crosse in Baptisme Baptisme by women gossippings blasphemous and hereticall collects These and certaine other haue they set downe to bee in the Booke not vnder the termes of faults blemishes and corruptions but as heresies blasphemies and abominations and that such as ouerturne the foundation of the Christian faith destroy the substance of Gods worship and take away the life and beeing of a true Church To this I haue answered that they be foule slaunderours liars false accusers shewing that our Church hath renounced in those former things that which is blasphemous and hereticall or so abominable as that it approacheth neerest to the destroying of the faith and holy worship of the Lord. As namelie the remission of sinnes and merite of eternall life by fasting which is the doctrine of the Romish church The worship and inuocation of Saints and Angels the power of expelling Diuels by the signe of the crosse and such like things which the papacie is full of but reiected by vs. If the Brownists in their replie against that I haue written shall prooue by the word of God that there be great corruptiōs in our praiers in our fasts in our keeping the Saints dayes in the Crosse and in manie other things which bee in our Church as in our Ministerie and Church gouernemēt And further if their proofes be neuer so clere strong from the Scriptures yet they answere not me at al nor touch the question or controuersie between them and me vnles they can prooue them to be such faults as destroy the worship of God ouerturne the foundation of the faith and take away the verie life and being of true Christianitie If I say they do not prooue them according as they haue set thē downe to bee blasphemies heresies abominations yea the verie worship and yoake of Antichrist the marke of the beast and his power I remaine vnanswered and they stand conuicted as liars slanderers and most wicked false accusers not of particular persons but of whole Churches For I shewed in expresse wordes that I doo not meddle at all in these questions whether there bee corruptions and faults in our Church condemned by Gods word whether they bee manie or fewe whether they bee small or great but onelie thus farre whether they bee such or so great as make our Churches Antichristian Here therefore I doo intreate the Christian Reader to fixe his eyes in reading my writings and theirs onelie vppon this one question whether there be in our Church any errors or faults that be found amentall Looke if
against all sin iudge repute them as christian brethren which it may be are not his fall is not great although he be ouer fauorable for through humility he is below Wheras on the other part such as condemne with vncharitable rigor they are lifted vp with swelling and so their fall is deeper This is my meaning in that I saide I had rather answer to God for mercy than for rigour now as I eschew it in my self so would I be loath seeing rigor aboundeth among many to giue any occasion to nourish the same by my writing If I sin in this yet I trust it is so as no godly charitable man wel aduised wil make an outcry against me for it if I shake hāds with sin let me be condēned for it otherwise I craue that I may follow the rule of the Apostle But now it wil be said by the third sort which finde fault with my book that I haue broken this rule towards the Brownists as also that rule of S. Paul who willeth to instruct with patience such as be contrary minded because I charg them not only with foule Schisme but also with heresies and for which I take it that obstinacie if it be found in thē wil make them heretickes They differ not frō vs say some in matters of faith but doo ouer shoot thēselues that on the right hand for answer vnto these first touching the rules of Paul I know he himself did practize thē And he that gaue these rules so far as wee are come let vs proceed by one rule c. and instructing with patience c. said also beware of dogs beware of euill workmen beware of the concision Philip. 3. Why did S. Paule this but mooued with the danger which the Churches were in by them Men haue not now the consideration what it is to condemne the whole worship the Ministrie as Antichristian and so vtterlie to take away the credite and power of the Ministrie and preaching Gods word Will they esteeme it to bee lesse than that which the false Apostles did Againe I see men are ignorant what the power of Donatisme was how it preuailed and spread not onelie among the common sort but had hundreths of preachers to publish and set it foorth Neither doo men knowe the foulenes of Donatisme nor the poynts of it and that maketh them offended that I terme the Brownists Donatists hold it as a schisme and heresie Cresconius the Donatist writing against Augustine doth reprehend him for calling them hereticks because they held the same doctrine as hee saith and if they offended it could bee but as in a schisme Augustine replieth that Schisma inueteratum est haeresis Inueterate schisme is heresie And sheweth that some thinges they helde were hereticall The Churches haue condemned it not only as a schisme but also as an heresie I haue out of large discourses of the controuersies betweene the Churches and the Donatists drawen foorth brieflie all the chiefe heads of Donatisme and how they did stand to maintaine them and with what scriptures I compare the Brownists and them together in all poynts generallie held and will stand to iustifie that they bee full Donatists euen in the rankest Donatisme If I haue not set down the Donatisme aright and if the Brownisme be not the same let me haue the shame for euer that I haue giuē them the title and can not iustifie that they are worthie of it Let the Brownists chuse which part they will either to affirme that the Donatists had the truth or else to cleere thēselues frō Donatisme I will ioyne with them or rather against them in either And in the meane time I do exhort al other to be sober minded and discreet and not to thrust the simpler sort headlong into it by exclaiming that they bee ouer hardlie dealt withall For what say some If these that are called Brownists bee godly men and but ouerseene in some matters we will chuse to ioyne with thē rather thā with the publike assemblies of our Church These men are they in compassion of whō I write Now the chiefe heads in which I compare them are these The Donatists did falselie accuse and condemne the Churches and al the Ministers to be vtterlie polluted and al their worship and separated themselues without all order of discipline So haue the Brownists done The Donatists tooke beginning by occasion of one man whom they held to be no Minister of Christ but after they made their defence that all were polluted and all the Ministers the generatiōs of Traitors Iudasses and persecutors of the iust that the Churches in the beginning after the times of persecution were not well ordered by separation of the faithfull from the wicked For because there were many both Ministers and people which in time of persecution to saue their liues had denied the faith sacrificed to Idols and deliuered the holie Scriptures to the persecutors and when Constantine gaue peace being become Christian returned and were not cast foorth Hereupon the Donatists said all were vtterlie polluted that because some such did ordaine Ministers at least as they reported they accused all the Ministers to bee the sons of traitors which ordained them and so were no ministers of Christ had no true praier nor Sacraments The Brownists affirme that all our assemblies which openlie committed Idolatrie were at the sound of a Trumpet at the coronation of the Queene called to be Churches that the bad were not separated frō the good that our ordainers were Idolaters that we are their children no Ministers of Christ but Baals priests persecutors so haue no word of God nor no Sacraments nor true church all being polluted with the open sinnes committed Thus both make the holie things of the Lord which indeed are vnchangeable or els we could haue no cōfort as namely the word of God the praiers the Sacraments the ordination of Ministers to be polluted destroied by the wickednes of men The Donatists held that Princes were not to compell vnto religion so cried out of persecution gloried of their sufferings multitude of martyres And what do the Brownists These things with the rest will better appeare in the seuerall comparisons as they followe in my booke I now intreate the reader not to iudge of any one thing vntill he haue read the whole I also desire that the sayings of the ancient writers which I alleage may be wel waied for proofe of that for which I cite them If any shall say what shall we ground vppon men I answer I alleage them but to shew what the controuersie was how it was disputed on both sides for this they are sufficient witnesses Beleeue their reasons as ye find they be confirmed by the holie Scriptures I haue set downe the Latin least any should thinke I haue not dealt plainlie And touching the last part of this my booke which is an answer to Master Greenwood
the head and the members they put the Fathers and the Children for the stock and the braunches they put the Trée and the boughes which is all one And from the roote as it were from the Fountaine and head they deriue the life the power and the Image c. Thus they agrée then that the one part saide those which ordeined ye were such as sacrificed to Idols and Traitors verie Iudasses you are their children and like them The other part saieth those that ordeined yee bée the creatures of Antichrist yée receiue the verie life and power of your Ministerie from them ye are their Children and so the Children of the Pope Now let vs sée the answer which Augustine maketh which is this In his omnibus verbis tuis creatorem meum caput meum non fecisti nisi traditorem quem quidem accusare tantùm non conuincere potuisti Ego autem nec eius innocentiam mihi creatricem vel fontem caputúe constituo Sed tu ad illud redis in quo Petilianus errauit cum cuiusque in sanctificatione baptismatis Christuâ— sit origâ— caputque nascentis nos vis venire in maledictuÌ„ de quo scriptum est maledictus omnis qui spem suam ponit in homine That is to say In all these thy wordes thou hast made my ordainer my head none other than a traitor whom thou couldest onely accuse but not conuince But I do not hold his innocencie to be that which hath ordained me a Minister or to be fountaine or head but thou doest returne to that in which Petilian erred when as Christ in the sanctification of baptisme is the originall and the head of euerie one that is borne againe and wilt haue vs come into the curse of which it is written Cursed is euerie one that putteth his trust in man Thus farre Augustine whose answere hath two parts The first is that the Donatists did accuse but could not prooue that the ordainers were such as in time of persecution had yeelded to sacrifice to Idols or deliuered the holie booke to the fire The other part is that whether he that ordained him were a godlie man or a wicked man the matter is all one touching his ordination and Ministrie The ordination not being mans the innocencie of man cannot be the ordainer it cannot bee the head or fountaine neither can it make his ordination the better Then likewise the wickednesse of the man that ordaineth cannot be the roote nor the fountain nor the head The men which ordaine are not the fathers of the Ministrie because it is not theirs which they deliuer but Christs That this is Augustines meaning it is cléere by that he telleth Cresconius he returned to that in which Petilian erred Petilian denying that it was baptisme that had béen ministred by an vngodlie man rendereth this reason that euerie thing must haue an originall and an head or else it is nothing Augustine replâ—eth that Christ onely is the originall and the head of him that is baptized and that the baptisme being Christs and not theirs that did deliuer it the goodnes of the Minister made it not one iot the better nor the wickednes of the Minister any whit the worse Adding moreouer that such as take the baptisme ministred by a godlie man to bee better in it selfe than that which is ministred by a naughtie man fall into the curse of which it is written Cursed is euerie one that putteth his trust in man He that hangeth the matters which are Christs vpon men putteth his trust in men The same answere that hée hath made to those his Donatists of Aphrica doo wee make vnto our Donatists of England First they accuse in most bitter and hainous manner but shall neuer be able to prooue their accusation for there is no Ministrie in England ordained by the Pope or for the Pope The Ministrie of publishing the Gospell and deliuering the Sacraments is not the deuice of man but Christes ordinance and therefore we receiue it not as theirs that deliuer it neither doth their godlines or vngodlines make it better or worse vnto vs. The Ministrie was not vtterlie destroyed in the Poperie for there remained the Sacrament of baptisme howsoeuer the Catabaptists denie the same How much is the Ministrie of Christ to bee acknowledged when it is onely to that end for which he ordained it though the men that ordaine should be most vngodlie This thing will more fullie appeare when we come to handle the agréement of the Brownists with the Donatists in that ranke Donatisme affirming it to bee no Sacrament which is ministred by an open wicked man Thus much may suffice to shewe that in denying the ministrie to bee Christs they hold the same ground and arguments and receiue the selfe same answere And for their rayling termes as generations of traitors seducers false Prophets Iudasses persecutors and such like I néed not mention the comparison of our men with them seeing they doo in this as in one of the chiefe vaines of their eloquence apparantlie excell Their basest disciples can crie out Antichrists Baals Priests false Prophets seducers and what not But it will bée sayd that in the matter of discipline the Donatists and Brownists are vnlike I graunt the Donatists that euer I haue read did take no exception that way That is not alone in question but whether there were any fault so that exception might betaken And for this men are to consider that as corruption in doctrine and ceremonies did enter betimes into the Church and growe a pace so also the discipline or externall gouernment was of many neglected abused and corrupted Sundrie of the Pastors being proud and ambitious the steppes were made for Antichrist to climbe vp who challenged not onely an externall power ouer all other but also a Lordship ouer the conscience Thus much touching the first obiection The second difference obiected is That the Donatists did condemne all Churches in the world The Brownists condemne but the Churches of England Indéed the Brownists doo affirme that they be farre from condemning all churches and so here is an apparant difference and a great at the first sight if men doo not narrowlie way and consider all matters They knowe it is a great preiudice vnto them if it bée found that they condemne all Churches but wee may not looke vpon their words of deniall but vpon the consequence of their matters For he that shooteth an arrowe at one thing and together therewith striketh another cannot bee sayd not to haue striken it because he had no such intent So must wee consider whether the dart of condemnation which they haue shot at the Church of England doo not together with the same runne through the sides of all Churches I stand to prooue it doth and so that they are in this also full Donatists But if they did not yet they shall bee found thus farre in Donatisme as to condemne some Churches of Christ My first reason shall be from
there is no Church Then he sheweth further that the offence is iust and God must needs punish that there is such wounding of weake consciences but in this they offend as hee saieth that they knowe not how to keepe anie measure in being offended or omitting that clemencie which the Lord requireth they giue themselues wholie vnto immoderate seueritie And because they think there is no Church where there is not sound puritie and integritie of life through the hatred of wickednes they depart away from the lawfull Church while they thinke they turne a side from the faction of the wicked Then he proceedeth in answering their obiections they alleage that the Church of Christ is holie he willeth them also to vnderstand by the parables in the Gospell that the good and the bad are mixed together They erie out that it is a thing intollerable that the contagious pestilence of vices dooth in such violent raging sort ouerspread all hee setteth before them the vices that were in the Churches of Corinth and Galatia They obiect that Paul dooth will we eate not with anie called a brother which is of an vngodlie life Yea here they crie out that if it be not lawfull to eate common bread with such how should it be lawfull to eate with them the bread of the Lord He answereth that it is a great reproach in deede if dogges and swine bee admitted to haue place among the children of God yea it is also much greater if the sacred bodie of Christ be prostituted vnto them And where the Churches are well ordred they doo not keepe in their bosome the notorious wicked nor admit all without difference to that holie banquet but the pastors are not alwaies diligent sometime they fauour more than they ought or bee more remisse And sometime they cannot but are letted from exercising that seueritie which they would Now when the Church ceaseth to doo her duetie herein it is not for euery priuate man saith he to separate himselfe euery godly man is indeede to keepe himselfe from the fellowship of sinne but it is one thing to eschewe the fellowship of sinne and another for hatred thereof to renounce the Communion of the Church Then hee answereth further that Saint Paul willeth euerie one to examine himselfe when hee commeth to eate of that bread and if it were a wicked thing to communicate with the vnworthie Paul would certainelie haue willed vs to looke about least there should bee some in the multitude by whose vncleannes we might be defiled These things he hath in the fourteenth and fifteenth sections in the sixteenth section hauing shewed that the chiefe ringleaders in such separation are led with pride he willeth the godlie to consider that in a great multitude there are manie which are truelie holie and innocent before the eyes of the Lord which are hid from their sight that of those which seeme diseased or infected there are manie which doo not please or flatter themselues in their vices but being eftsones awakened with an earnest feare of God labour to amend That they must not iudge of a man for one fact when the holiest men doo sometime fall most grieuouslie That the Ministrie of the word and the participation of the Sacraments haue more force to gather a Church than that by the fault of certaine wicked men that whole power may vanish or come to none effect Finallie let them consider that in esteeming a Church the iudgement of God is of more waight and certaintie than the iudgement of man In the eighteenth section hee setteth forth how the holie Prophets of God did not separate themselues in those horrible and lamentable desolations which they describe when most of the people and the Priestes themselues were openlie wicked Thus may wee see that Master Caluine condemning the Brownists so seuerelie by the Scriptures they must either reuoke Brownisme in this point that the bad pollute the good and therefore separation to be made which he termeth sacrilegious treacherie or else condemne him not onelie with the Church of Geneua which he taught but also all other Churches that imbrace his writings and acknowledge him for a noble instrument of God Furthermore let the Brownists shew any one assemblie at this day in the World in which there bee not open sinners admitted to the Lords table and which sinne in great sinnes as either in pride selfe loue ambition couetousnes idlenes hatred enuie contention backbiting lying and in such like They say all are polluted and fallen away from the couenant where any that openlie sinneth is admitted to the holie Communion How can they say then that they doo not condemne all Churches vnder heauen Finallie when in their writings they affirme that prescript forme of prayer imposed is Idolatrie a bondage breaking christian libertie a thing most detestable they doo so farre condemne all Churches in as much as there is no one which hath not prescript forme of Prayer imposed And the Brownist which hath published in Print a defence of the same alleageth the extreame curse against those that adde to Gods word Reuel 22. and saith they adde which make Lawes in the Church in matters of circumstance or things indifferent Which in deede all the Churches doo and therefore hee layeth that extreame curse vpon all the reformed Churches let no man therefore be so simple as to imagine that the Brownists doo condemne but the English Churches when their extreame seueritie in condemning reacheth ouer all Now to the third thing obiected wherein they may seeme to differ from the Donatists namely that the Donatists did holde that the Sacraments or the efficacie of them doth depend vpon the worthines of the minister but the Brownists are not of that minde I answere that in this great and ranck poynt of Donatisme I can find no difference at all betwéen them and the Brownists and let the wordes and meaning of both be scanned and it shal appeare manifestly that they hold the selfe same thing neither more nor lesse like euen brethren The Brownists affirme that we haue neither worde of God nor Sacraments in our Church But demaund of them doth the Sacrament or the efficacie thereof depend vpon the worthines of the minister They will aunswere it doth not but yet it can be no Sacrament of Christ vnles hee be a minister of Christ that doth deliuer it If it bee saide vnto them Iudas was a most wicked man and our Sauiour calleth him a diuell yet was he a minister of Christ for the time and the baptisme he administred as effectual as the baptisme of any other They will replie and say that was so because the sinne of Iudas was secret they were not polluted by his vncleannes because they did not know it But he that is an open sinner cannot be a minister of Christ and such as receiue the Sacrament at his hand knowing his wickednes cannot but be partakers of his sinne and polluted by the same This wil they say is
sinne therefore they that vse it are no Church Haue ye said no more but that it is an hainous sinne Haue you forgotten all your former sayings of Idolatrie bondage breaking Christian libertie most detestable standing vnder Gods wrath I hold him no Anabaptist nor Donatist which from such spéeches concludeth no true Church For I neuer heard that the true Church doth stand vnder Gods wrath The next wordes are sore Abaddon is the father of such Prophets saith Maister Greenewood because I say the Brownists maintaine such a fréedome as that will haue nothing imposed by commaundement I pray ye tell me whether you be one of those which set out the brief summe of the profession And when I had written against it I would knowe if ye were one that made the defence or approoued the same Did yee not approoue of the answers that goe vnder the name of Henrie Barrow Imposed is put for an argument by it selfe in those writings and so noted with a figure Could the very word imposed be an argument by it selfe if any imposing by commaundement bee lawfull in Gods worship If the ciuill Magistrates haue power but to reuiew the lawes of Christ and to mooue men or stirre them vp to the more diligent keeping of the same may they then impose by commaundement And as you speake here of that which is not onely receiued but also by commaundement as though there were great waight in the words by commaundement I pray ye tell me then what force ye repose in the words imposed and by commaundement when ye oppose them against Christian freedome Tell me also whether yee denie not that any Canons and constitutions made in Synods in matters variable are to be imposed by commandement If they be what is the reason that you Brownists when yee crie out against Church gouernment as it is in England speake in generall against Canons And a little after in this your booke ye denie all power of making lawes in things indifferent terming it an adding to Gods word and alleaging against it the extreame curse of God I graunt the Churches power is limitted by the word in making such lawes and so is the power of Princes There hath béen much sayd alreadie touching the Lords Praier and other prescript formes in the Scriptures but yet here come in newe reasons if I may so call them which are voide of reason Houtos is the same that the Hebrew Coh after this manner I answere that this hath béen dealt in before where ye must vnsay somewhat againe or else the words of the Scripture now written are not the words of the Lord but the like Further because Christ saith when ye pray if he willed we should say ouer y e words then should we euer when we pray say them To this I answere that respecting the rules for matters when ye pray when is as much as to say whensoeuer ye pray because we may not depart from those matters conteined in the general petitions But if we respect withall the prescript forme of words there is a double consideration to be had for in them selues they bee most excellent perfect and full and so brieflie doo containe the whole summe and substance of all thinges which we ought to craue of God as that nothing is wanting But our mind is not able so largelie or vnto such depth at one instant to spread or extend it selfe in desire as to bee mindfull of euery particular therein conteined And also we are more mooued as seuerall matters of néede doo presse vs to craue them particularlie Hereupon it doth followe that as on the one part it were agreat iniurie and hindrance that any man should binde vs when any particular néede vrgeth to begge reliefe onelie in the generall forme which includeth many things and not suffer vs to expresse the very particulars and singulars so on the other part to binde vs alwaies in such sort to the seuerall particulars that we may not at all vse the generals is very absurd and a disgrace to those most excellent petitions For by this it must needes followe that I may not say Let thy Kingdome come or forgiue vs our trespasses as we forgiue them that trespas against vs vntill the Brownists disprooue this he is fully conuict For if I may vse one petition of the generall heads when I pray I may vse anie one if any one then all The next argument which is brought is to this effect that if we be cōmaunded to say those words then should we sin in vsing any other forme for those being in y e best forme we are bound alwaies to bring the best sacrifice we haue or els we are accursed This reason I haue fully answered in that which went before for I haue shewed in what respect it is the most excellent absolute forme the best and can by no meanes without great absurditie yea wicked impietie be reiected withall what is necessarie and fit for vs. Now for conclusion let the Reader iudge whether I haue more need to leaue of as he saith my popish dreames or he his spirituall fantasies I am farre from maintaining that our Sauiour or his Apostles did stint or bynde men vnto certaine wordes which of necessitie they must vse and none other but this is the thing which the Brownistes must ioyne issue in with me whether I may not pray saying let thy kingdome come or if I may so vse the prescript forme of wordes in one petition whether I may not in any and so in all And heere let the Reader obserue that Maister Greenewood crying out for freedome complayning of a tradition that bringeth our libertie into bondage hee doth him selfe take away freedome and woulde lay a bondage vpon men and vpon the Churches For it is to lay a yoake of bondage when men will restraine that which God hath left free to bee vsed as shal be most conuenient and profitable for edification as to follow a prescript forme or to reade praying Among the Iewes in the time of the Law God tied them to the Temple and vnto certaine set howers for the Euening and Morning sacrifice but in this we are set free in the Gospell For I may lawfullie goe to the Temple to heare the word and to be partaker of the Sacraments with the assemblie and I may lawfullie frequent other places where the publike worship is The Churches may appoint the same howres for there meetings that were vnder the law if it be conuenient and they may appoint other if it shal be more fitte hee that in these shall take away the freedome which is giuen to the Churches doth lay a yoake of bondage In like case prescript forme of prayer to vse praying being an helpe to the weake and a thing sanctified of God and left free to the Church as neede shall require he that denieth that free vse doth lay a yoake of bondage And so I charge Maister Greenewood here to doe In the next place
it of necessitie seeing men are excommunicate and deposed for not obseruing it or as some verie ignorantlie vse to say if it be a thing indifferent why is it not left indifferent for men to vse or not to vse I answere that which is a thing indifferent God commaundeth it shall be done when it is conuenient and for edification and therefore when the Church doth appoynt or ordeine it rightly he that breaketh it wilfullie breaketh the commandement of God And so on the other side when it falleth out not to be conuenient and the Church dooth alter it hee that will now obserue it with a resisting minde doth like wise offend against the rule of Gods word I neuer doubted but that by neâ—essary consequence it is to be drawen from the doctrine of the scriptures that prayer is to be made before and after the word preached but I speake of a commaundement in expresse wordes therefore the places are cited here by the Brownist to no purpose And all the rest of his words that follow are either in matters wherin we agree or such as he collectetth from his owne ignorance and which are answered before The next argument is Read prayers were deuised by Antichrist and maintaine superstition and Idole ministerie c. Here the Brownist if he would at all speak to the purpose shoulde prooue that the very reading a prayer when one prayeth is the deuise of Antichrist maintaineth superstitioÌ„ an Idole ministrie But he flieth dealeth about the matter of leiturgies saying he hath heard the Pope woulde haue approoued ours if it might be receiued in his name If master Greenwoods newes from Rome were true which hee heard the matter were not great for the Pope will approoue the Lords prayer the commaundements and articles of the faith but he wil expound them as it pleaseth him The Pope also to wind in himself wil approoue in shew many things which he misliketh so they be not directly against his crowne and dignitie And it is to be considered that the controuersies betweene vs and the Papists are not about the matters which we are to begge in prayer There is no likelyhood that the Pope made such offer because he knoweth we holde in the substance and grounds of the faith that which quite ouerthroweth him but if he did men may see by these things which I haue noted that master Greenwood doth but shift and trifle He confesseth leiturgies were before Antichrist and yet saith he was the deuiser See the grauitie of this man he is sore afraide that hee should here againe be said to condemne all Churches because they haue read prayer and therfore he saith his arguments are falsely wrested Answere your selfe then and tell vs what ye holde them which receiue the deuise of Antichrist Why crie yee not out of the marke of the beast It is a pitifull thing to see in what a case the Brownist is For he wil not coÌ„demne the Churches and yet after he hath set foorth what leiturgie is and affirmed that the new Testament is Christs leiturgie he alleageth that they be accursed that adde thereto and holdeth prescript forme of prayer an adding Let him now be asked is the curse layd vpon the true Churches he will say no. Then prescript forme is either no adding to Christs Testament or else they be vnder the curse that vse it He saith leiturgies are another gospel Then all Churches haue receiued another gosepl The wordes that follow haue bin answered before Where I sayd there would sundrie inconueniences growe for want of prescript forme of publike prayer After he hath set downe that Christ is a perfect law giuer and that the word of God is sufficient he tearmeth it blasphemie to say there would be inconueniences without leiturgies then all the Churches committe blasphemie whether doe ye yet condemne them or not This is from his grosenes which doth not se that Christs Testament is perfect and yet there are things commaunded in generall rules which are variable as I haue before shewed for circumstances of time place persons sitting kneeling c. He saith there can be no particular lawes made without breaking the lawe of God as though the Church were not to see what in these is fit and conuenient vpon euerie occasion and time and for that time to establish the same But euerie man to doe as he shall like or shal take the generall rule of order and decencie for men will not agree this is from rules of order to drawe confusion Now this great deuine saith I haue made a faire hande in affirming leiturgies to be but a matter of order or conueniencie for edification Seeing as hee saith it is all the worship we haue this commeth from him that hath the beautie of Sion as he boasteth which the inchaunters of Egipt cannot iudge of This commeth from him that with his fellowes hath the cloude betweene them and vs and the pillar of fire before them as he speaketh in the next wordes Because I say the prescript forme and the reading are but for order he concludeth that I confesse the prayer is but a matter of order or conueniencie ye say I haue made a faire hand But I tell ye master Greenwood if ye should goe into the Schooles and reason so in earnest the young boyes would be readie to hisse ye foorth as a non proficiens and howe faire hand should you make then they will not beleeue ye haue it from your pillar of fire but out of that dark cloud of your ignorance which is betweene your selfe and the light of the trueth Now wheras I said y e Church hath power to ordain according to the word of God to appoint such orders in matters of circumstance about publike prayer preaching of the worde and administring of the Sacraments as shall most fitly serue for edification and then these orders being established by publike authoritie the discipline and censures of the Church are to driue men to the obseruation of the same that stubbornely break them Here the poore Brownist layeth open himselfe againe to be as blinde as a beetle he will needes haue it to be papisticall mudde and that I am in an Apostacie Because there can as he saith no other lawes be made in matters of circumstance than Christ himselfe hath made that to ordaine lawes in the Church is to plead for vnwritten verities and to make the law of God vnsufficieÌ„t It is an adding to the word of God which is execrable pride All the Popes trinkets might bee brought in by the same ground This is the foundation of Poperie and Anabaptistrie to giue libertie to make lawes in the worship of God And by your iudgement which would haue men driuen to obserue them our Sauiour Christ was an Anabaptisticall Schismatike that would not himselfe nor his disciples obey the traditions of the Elders Thus speaketh this Brownist But what beastlie ignorance doth he bewray and that in sundrie poynts and with what