sought in great Congregations 3. Put the case they had Voyce yet followes it not that they had voyce in the Examen and Iudging of the Pastors sufficiency since they had not the Iudgement or sufficiency themselves to Iudge thereof but only as I said before in the Examen of his life if they knew any thing that might hinder his Reception or in the acceptation into a particular Church or rejection from it which only belonged to the Congregation wherein he was to exercise his Office which they called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And therefore as Tilenus observes in his Dispute De Vocatione Ministrorum the Church of old times was wont to write in a Table or Placard in some publicke place the name of him who was destin'd to the Ministery or in case that could not commodiously be done they named him publickly in the Ecclesiastick Assembly to the end that if any man knew any thing which might hinder his Reception He might advertise the Church within such a time as Shee prescribed for that purpose And thus much we grant and this Text proves no more Our Brethren triumph much also of the Place Acts 15. where they pretend that in that famous Controversie betwixt Paul and Barnabas on the one part and some Pharisees on the other about the observation of the Ceremoniall Law and of Circumcision the People Iudged and had voyce as well as the Pastors and Elders both at Antioch and at Hierusalem which they prove 1. because v. 2. the Brethren determined to send Paul and Barnabas to Hierusalem unto the Apostles and Elders about that Question I answer 1. That the Text sayes not that the Brethren and People determined to send them but that they determined which probably were those of the Representative Church 2. Put the case that all the Church and every member thereof determined to send them yet could they not determine that but as they could viz. the Representative Church composed of Church-Officers by power of Iurisdiction in voycing and giving of Iudgement And the People by consenting to their just Iudgement explicitely or implicitely 3. It may be that the Church was divided into two Factions of equall force which made a great Schisme for the Text sayes v. 2. that Paul and Barnabas had no small dissention with the Pharisees and in such an extraordinary case the Consent of the people might well have been sought Howsoever the Text sayes it not 4. But howbeit it were so Extraordinary Cases are not to be drawn into consequence 5. Howbeit the People had determined yet did they it not in an Ecclesiasticall but in a Politicall way viz. in furnishing them their Charges and in that they might have Voyce or Power to consent or give suffrage in furnishing money which was accidentall to this Ecclesiasticall and Spirituall Power 6. To send Deputies or the parties to Hierusalem or to a Synod to debate the question is not a proper act of Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction but the Voycing and Pronouncing of Sentence in Ecclesiasticall Causes 2. They prove it from this Text because they were brought on their way by the Church E. What follows That every one of the People in the Church except Women Children Distracted men and Sinners had Voyce in this businesse A. 1. I deny the Consequence for how know they that there were no VVomen nor Youths that brought them on their way 2. How know they that all the Reall Church brought them on their way 3. To bring them on their way is not an Act of Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction but of Christian Charitie or of Civill Humanitie Neither belongeth it to every one that convoyes a Commissioner a part of his way to have a Decisive Voyce in that which his Commission containes Truly This is so ridiculous that I am ashamed to answer it or that the world should believe that so good and so learned men should be moved to make a Schisme in the Church of God for so frivolous Arguments 3. They prove it from the fourth verse because they were received of the Church and of the Apostles and Elders E. Every one in the Church had power of Voycing and of Jurisdiction except Women Children and Sinners A. 1. I deny the Consequence For he who receives a Commissioner or a party hath not evermore Power to heare his Commission much lesse to judge thereof as we see in State-Businesses 2. The Text sayes not that they were received by all the Reall Church excepting Women Children c. 3. Neither sayes the Text that they that received them received them immediatly in the Peoples name 4. Or that they were received by them in qualitie of Church-Commissioners from Antioch But rather in qualitie of Apostles by Apostles by whom God had done great wonders in the Conversion of the Gentiles as it may be concluded from the 3. and 4. verses For in declaring this they rejoyced 5. Neither was this Reception an Act of Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction and it seemes that those that were so received were not all the Commissioners but those only that had converted the Gentiles viz. Paul and Barnabas Ans I answer the Antecedent may be denied that the word Congregation or Church here signifies all the Members of the Reall Church as above we have clearly proved because our Brethren confess that it signifies not Women Children c. 2. Put the case it signifie all the Church or the whole Church yet can it not signifie it wholly Significat totam sed non totalis but every part according to the matter in hand The Epistle then was written by the whole Church but by their Representative Body as having power of Jurisdiction and by the rest as consenting directly or indirectly Ob. But in this Church is comprehended the Brethren who are distinguished from the Apostles and Elders E. they signifie the People A. 1. It may signifie the Evanglists the Prophets and those that had the Gift of Tongues c. 2. I grant it according to my former declaration only I deny that they had Power of Jurisdiction or a Decisive voyce in this Company 3. What if it be denyed that the word Brethren here signifieth every one of the promiscuous multitude and I should say that it signifies the Deacons or men of the better sort that had a Deliberative voyce 4. Our Brethren themselves deny that it signifies all Brethren as Children and Women who are accounted under the word Brethren 2. Ans I deny the Consequence of the Argument 1. Because the Letters were also written to children women young men and notorious Sinners and yet even according to our Brethrens confession they had not Power of Voycing or of Jurisdiction in this or in any other Ecclesiasticall cause 2. Because that all the Scriptures are written to every Christian yea that which toucheth the day of Judgement and yet never any one of them shall judge thereof but be judged thereby 3. Because howbeit their Letters or this Judgement was
Order of Colloques and of Provinciall Synods consisting of Pastors and Antients deputed by the particular Churches and of Nationall Synods consisting of Pastors and Ancients deputed by the Provinciall Synods And that there may be a proceding in these holy Assemblies from step to step according to the quality and merit of Businesses 24. The Colloques may be held once or twice a yeare or oftner if there be businesses that require it The Provinciall Synods ought to be held once at the least in a yeare As for the Nationall Synods we conceive it will be sufficient that yee hold them from two to two or from three yeares to three yeares 25. The Ecclesiastique Assembly now sitting may make Rules touching the matters which the Consistorieâ— and Colloques shall judge definitively of as also of those which shall afterwards be carried to the Provinciall Synods and from the Provinciall to the National As when there is a Question that touches either the Interdiction or Deposition of Pastors 26. In all these Colloques and Synods as well Provinciall as Nationall after the invocation of the Name of God the President the Assessor or Assessors and the Secretaries should be Elected by plurality of voyces and after the end and shutting up of the Assembly they are to submit themselves as well as all the rest of the Company to the Censure of their Brethren 27. Those that are consecrated to the Holy Ministery after they have given good and sufficient testimony of their lives and manners ought to be examined in the Provinciall Synods or at least in the Colloques who having judged them capable are to send them with letters of Recommendation to those Churches that demand them where after they have by some Exercises or Sermons given a proofe of their gifts and the dexterity they have individing a right the Word of God and received the approbation of the people they receive the Imposition of Hands by the Pastors that are deputed for that purpose 28. This is a very profitable order that all the Pastors of a Colloque Preach there in their turnes and that their Sermons be subject to the charitable Censure of their Brethren 29. For that after the breaking up of the Assemblies they that presided in them have no more power then they had before the Calling of them To the intent there may alwaies be some constant and set order betweene the Churches Before such time as the Assembly part it ought to enjoyne some one certaine Church to give and receive the Advise of all the rest of the Churches of the Colloque or of the Province and to give it power in case of necessity to convocate a Colloque or Provinciall Assembly Extraordinarily The Nationall Synod ought also to give it in charge to the Provinciall Synod commit the care to call the Nationall Synod that is next to be to the Provinciall Synod 30. We are of Opinion that by the meanes of such an order once setled you will be able to remedy all that is amisse For on the one side there will be no primacy nor dominion of some particular Churches over others and on the other side you shall by that meanes chase out of the House of God all disorder and confusion 31. If whilst we studied to be briefe we be found obscure any where in this Discourse we are all ready to explaine our meanings and to make it cleerely appeare how exceeding sensible we are of your Interests as also what great contentment we take in this Brotherly Communication of yours with us 32. We know not what may be the Reasons of these Gentlemen you call Independents and we doubt not but you have both in England and Scotland gallant witts that are able men enough to refute them neverthelesse if you please to acquaint us with them we to testifie in testimony of the uniformity of our Opinions shall receive the communications as a respect unto us and will endeavour the Answer thereunto with charity Now the God of Patience and Consolation grant you all to thinke one and the same thing according to Iesus Christ to the end that you may all with one tongue and mouth glorifie the God the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ Amen IT is true that considering that the pretended Independency that some would bring in in England is the way to open a wide gate to a most fearfull confusion and that by the means therof the Devil is so busie to pull down whatsoever yee build up in my nineteenth Article I said That for very great very important and most just reasons it was resolved upon to abolish and pull downe the Episcopacy but that there was lesse mischiefe and inconvenience to permit it after a due correction of the Excesses of it and an abolishment of its Tyranny then to bring into the Church of God such an horrible confusion as seem'd to be conched and vayled under the name of INDEPENDENCY I freely confesse unto you that I am yet of the very same Opinion notwithstanding your reasoning to the contrary I say then 1. that though such a Tolerance might give somewhat to many to apprehend and suspect yet the Evills that could possibly thence arive would be without comparison farre lesse then those that this unbridled Licensing of Independents might introduce among you Now of two Evills you would doe well to choose the lesser 2. I conceived not that there was so great danger in tolerating the Bishops provided that they were ranged within the order of other Pastours so as that they might not have dominion over them but only a certaine Presidency and Commission to watch over their Brethren and that this Commission were given them by the Colloque or the Synod of the Province and that those Assemblies had the power in themselves to deprive them of it and to substitute others in their Places 3. There are many things established in the Government of the Church which formally and expresly are not to be found in the Word of God 4. It hath pleased God to give this in charge to those that he hath called to the guidance and Government of his Flock His Will is that All things in his House be done in order and to edification 5. You your self use yee not to choose from amongst your Pastors some persons to preside in your Colloques and in your Synods Is this formally and expresly in the Word of God A Presidency for certain Moneths or for certain Yeares is it of it selfe more faulty or criminall then that of yours for certaine daies or certaine weekes 6. Consider if it please you that Parker and other learned men of your Nation that have written against the Hierarchy declare how that were the Bishops in England but as the Pastors in Germany and Suitzer-land which they usuall stiley Inspectors and Super-intendents they would never goe about to put them downe 7. Put the case this order were established amongst the Pastors it were not properly to establish an office
extreme confusion souvent advient que deux pasteurs d'une mesme Eglise s'entrequerellent divisent le troupeau en deux factions contraires En ce cas il faut par necessitè avoir recours a une compagnie puissance superieure que si l'Eglise nà qu'un Pasteur que ce Pasteur soit vitieux vive à 'une vie scandaleuse soit supporté par le Consistoire entier ou que le Consistoire soit divisé il n'y a point de remede a ce mal que par les Colloques Synodes ayants puissance de suspendre ou deposer un tel Pasteur n'y ayant qu'un Pasteur en ceste Eglise iceluy meritant d'estre depose qui est ce qui le deposera Les Anciens du Consistoire seuls prononceront ils contre luy sentence de deposition Que si quelcun du peuple est injustement suspendu de la Saincte Cene ou excommunié a qui aura il recours pour estre restabli a qui formera il ses plainctes si le Consistoire qui l'a injustement condamnè a une Authorité Independante irrefragable Que si une nouvelle Heresie s'espand que quelques Pasteurs Eglises en soyent infectées quel moyen d'obvier a un si grand mal que par un Synode qui puisse deposer les Pasteurs obstinés en leur erreur Insectants le troupeau sans le Synode de Dordrect l'Arminianisme sespandroit par tout le pays si chaque Consistoire eust esté absolu Independant il eust peu mespriser la decision du Synode en disant nous ne sommes subjects a aucun Synode avons une authorité absolue Independante L'es Synodes sont principalement occupès a ouyr les plainctes des Eglises particulieres a juger des appels si vous ostez cela aux Synodes ils nont plus rien a faire leur Convocation sera inutile Car aussi eu vain prononceroient ils des jugements dont l'Execution ne seroit en leur puissance Chasque Consistoireise gouvernezoit a sa fautasie comme si en un grand pays de chaque village on faisoit une Souverainetè Cela est vouloir introduire vn ordre qui depuis le temps des Apostres jusques a maintenant n'a jamais esté practiqué Il y a plusieurs petites Eglises Champestres dont le Consistoire est composè d'un Pasteur qui na pas beaucoup de capacité de quatre ou cinq paysans qui sont Ancicus de l'Eglise donner a on a une telle Eglise ou Consistoire une authoritè Independante ce Pasteur venant a mourir ees payisans auront ils le pouvoir d'èn choisir un autre ou de luy imposer les mains sont ls Juges suffisants de la capacitè d'un Ministre Que si a cause de l'affliction de l'Eglise il est besoin de celebrer un jeusue par toutes les Eglises du Royaume qui ordonnerace jusne qui assignera le jour S'il faut representer au Prince Souverain les plaintes de toutes les Eglises qui esce qui deputera qui est ce qui presentera les requestes de tout le corps des Eglises du Royaume Si pour quelques occasions survenues il est besoiug de changer quelque chose en la Discipline Ecclesiastique faire des nouveaux reglements qui obligent toutes les Eglises cela se pourra il faire par des Consistoires Independants nm subjects a aucun reglement general Bref faut tenir pour constant que la Dependance des Compagnies inferieures subjectes aux Superieures est le lien qui entretient l'Vnion de l'Eglise le quelestant couppê il ny auroit plus de correspondance on verroit une horrible confusion Nul ne peut estre Juge eu sa propre cause s'il y a de la contention entre deux Eglises Particulieres comme cela advient fort souvent pas une de ces Eglises ne peut estre Iuge faut avoir recours a quelque authorité superieure Ie ne veux croire que ces Independants ayent Intelligence avec les Adversaires que leur but soit soubs ombre de Reformation de nous jecter en vne confusion qui nous expose en risee a ceux qui nous sont contraires I'aime mieux croire qu'ils errent par faute d'experience de cognoissance de ce qui est possible ou profitable a l'Eglise de Dieu P. D. M. The Iudgement of a great Divine in France concerning Independency declared in a Letter directed to Master Buchanan A Friend of mine a vertuous man and fearing God has advertised me that certaine persons finde fault with the Order established in our Churches by the which the Consistories are subject unto Colloques and the Colloques unto Provinciall Synods and the Provinciall Synods unto Nationall Synods They would have every Consistory to have an absolute authority and not to depend upon any superiour Assembly My Friend askes me thereupon my judgement The thing is of such a nature and of such weight that I could not deny him his request I say then That those that make such Propositions ought not to be believed if men followed their advice there could nothing follow but a turning of the Church upside down and an utter confusion It fals out often that two Pastors of one and the same Church fall out amongst themselves and divide the flock into two contrary Factions in this case of necessity we must have recourse unto a Company and Power Superiour But if the Church have but one Pastor and he be a vicious man and of a scandalous life and be supported by the whole Consistory or that the Consistory be divided there is no remedie for this evil but by Colloques and Synods that have power to suspend and Depose such a Pastor There being but one Pastor in this Church and he deserving to be deposed who is he that shall depose him The Elders of the Consistorie alone Shall they pronounce Sentence of Deposition against him What if any one among the People be suspended from the holy Supper or excommunicated To whom shall he have his recourse to be received again into the Church And to whom shall he make his Complaint if the Consistorie which hath unjustly condemned him have an Independant and irrefragable Authority What if a new Heresic be sowen abroad and that certaine Pastors and Churches be infected with it what means is there to meet with such an evil but by a Synode that hath power to depose Pastors that are obstinate in their Error and infect the Flocks Had it not been for the Synod of Dordrecht Arminianisme had spread it self over the whole country If every Consistory had been Independant it had contemned the Decision of the Synod
saying We are not subject to any Synode We have an absolute and Independant Authority Synods are chiefly busied about hearing of the Complaints of particular Churches and to judge of Appellations If you deny that Power unto Synods they have no more to do and their Convocation shall be to no use for in vain should they pronounce Iudgements which were not in their power to put in Execution Every Consistory should governe it self after its own fancy as if in a great Country one should make of every Village a Soveraignty that were to introduce an Order which since the dayes of the Apostles was never practised untill this time There are many little Country Churches whereof the Consistory is composed of one Pastor who is of no deep understanding and of four or five Persons that are Elders of the Church shall we give to such a Church or Consistory an Independant Authority And that Pastor hapning to die these Persons shall they have power to choose another or give him Imposition of Hands Are they competent Judges of a Ministers sulficiency What if because of the Affliction of the Church it be necessary to Celebrate a Fast throughout all the Churches of the Kingdom who shall ordaine this Fast Who shall appoint the Day If the Complaints of all the Churches must be represented to the Soveraigne Prince who shall Depute Who shall present the Requests of the whole Body of the Churches of the Kingdom If for certain Emergent Occasions it be necessary to change something in the Discipline of the Church and to make new Ordinances to binde all the Churches can that be done by Independant Consistories not subject to any generall Rule Briefly we must hold constantly that the Dependence of Inferiour Companies being subject to Superious is the Band that entertains the Union of the Church which being cut asunder there should be no more Correspondence and we should see a horrible confusion No man can be Iudge in his own Cause If there be a strife betwixt two particular Churches as it fals out very often not one of these Churches can be Iudge They must addresse themselves to some superiour Authority I will not believe that these Independants have intelligence with the Adversaries and that their Aime is under colour of Reformation to cast us into a Confusion which might expose us to be laught at by those who are our Opposites I would rather believe that they erre for want of Experience and knowledge of that which is pessible and profitable for the Church of God Sentiment d'un grand Theologien de Hollande touchant l'Independence declarè en une Lettre addressée a Mr. Buchanan VN voyage que j'ay faict au nom de nostre Academie est cause du retardement de ma Responce a celle que vous m'aves faict la faveur de m'escrire Ie vous suis obligè des tesmoignages de vostre affection et vous prie de faire estat reciproquement de la mienne Ie ne vous seaures asses representer comme nous gemissons pour les confusions de vos Royaumes Ie souhaite avec passion que la Reformation de l'Eglise d'Escosse soit suivie de celle d'Angleterre et que vos Ordres aussi bien que vos Armées leur soient rendues salutaires ie ne hesite nullement ains crois que ceux qui veulent introduire l'Independ des Eglises introduiront l'Anarchie confusion et toutes sortes de licence a remplir les Chaires de Fanatiques vos Eglises de Schismes Ie ne doute point que nombre de personnes ne soient portées a ce parti de bon Zele ne croient bien faire Mais la consequence de ceste Indep ne se pouroit jamais suffisamment descouvrir qu'apres quelle auroit esté establie autant presque que vous auriez d'Eglises autant auriez vous dautel contre autels et l'un seroit pour Paul et l'autre pour Cephas le 3 pour Apollos Dieu vous garde de ces horribles confusions on veroit un beau mesnage si chaque Famille estoit Independ sans police et sans dependence d'un ordre public et que seroit ce del Eglise Iaurois mis la main a la plume pour en faire une dissertation estendue si je neusse estimé quil seroit plus a propos que ce jugement soit demandé a nostre faculte il auroit par a moyen plus de pards que procedent dun particulier Aoust 1. 1644. The Iudgement of a great Divine in Holland concerning Independency declared in a Letter directed to Master Buchanan Sir A Iourney that I was put upon by our University is the cause why I had not answered sooner those Letters you were pleased to write unto me I am much beholding to you for the testimony of your Affection and I pray you reciprocally to make account you have mine I cannot sufficiently represent unto you how much we take to heart the confusions of your Kingdom Learnestly wish that the Reformation of Scotland may be imitated by the Church of England and that your Church-Government as well as your Brotherly Assistance by Armes may be serviceable unto them I doubt nothing but firmely believe that they that would introduce Independency of Churches would bring in an Anarchie a confusion and all sorts of Licence to furnish all Pulpits with men of Fanatick Spirits as also your Churches with Schismes I make no question but many of them are carried to these opinions with a good meaning that they think therein they do wel But the dangerous consequence of such an Independence should it be established would discover more then we believe can ever sufficiently be discovered till it be established As many Altars should you then have erected one against another as you have Churches One Church would side it selfe with Paul another with Cephas a third with Apollos God preserve you from these horrid confusions you should see a sweet Oconomie if every particular family should once come to be Independant without any Policy or Dependance upon the publike and what then would become of the poor Church of God I should have been much larger in handling the point more accurately had I not thought it had been more expedient for you to have had the Iudgement of the Divines of this University jointly being that it would have carried more authority with it then possibly any thing can do that proceeds from a private man onely Quod foelix faustumque sit THe first period of this Book is a manifest untruth There is no such thing in all my Book as that my heart with discontent is rent in two pieces to hear the innocent bleatings of that wronged Lamb the Apologie So as I may here use your admirative Interrogation Is this the use men make of pressing Sermons Your following Injuries non sunt dignae irâ Caesaris I must be fain to beare with this Epidemicall Disease of you Independents and
in a Rhetoricall and Oratorious way endeavour in the most part of your Book to publish your great Sufferings and extraordinary Piety and so to move us all to compassion and ravish us all into admiration as if ye meant rather to perswade then to prove them Hee answereth that he cannot answer since here is no sence And wherefore I pray Because the Interrogatory point is put after these words or from us Truly As the word agree or differ may by a certain Figure in Grammar called Zeugma be understood to be joyned with all those words so is the point of Interrogation But it should bee at the end as it is in the Observations And whereas it is in the beginning in stead of a Comma it is either the Printers over-sight or mine But to say that this great learned Clerk could not perceive this wherein the most ignorant findeth no difficulty who can believe him It is a pretty evasion to elude my Question Whereas he saith that the Interrogation should have been after Anabaptists as if the Reformed Protestants who refute Brownists and Anabaptists should say we Brownists and Anabaptists it is but his foolery which yet we could easily endure if he answered the Question Which since he cannot do I take it for granted that in this they have not proceeded well or at least not so well as they might If I should serve my selfe of such poore advantages or shifts rather as easily I might up and down in his and C.C. Books I should answer nothing at all as this Gentleman does But good men know that when ever I doubt of sence in them what ever I do I deale ingenuously with them and consult with sundry to find out their meaning and when neither others nor I my selfe can find any sense in their writings I passe it over in silence not reproving that which I understand not or that cannot be understood But if others understood it it is a great shame for this great Divine to have been so dull 7. Consid A.S. Whether the Apol. Narr be published in the name of the Five Ministers or of all those also or a part of those whom they pretend to hold their Tenets If in the name of you Five only whether ye Five can arrogate a power unto your selves to maintain these Tenets as the constant opinion of all your Churches having no generall confession of their Faith thereabouts If in the name of all the rest we desire you would shew your Commission from all your Churches c. These Questions have much vexed M.S. and put him to his wits end he would not answer but turnes them over unto me and will have mee to answer To which therefore I doe answer 1. Quaestio questionem non solvit 2. I answer directly 1. that this Answer I have made to the Apologie I have done it of my selfe and have done it by Authority since I have a Licence granted by him that by Authority Licenceth Books 2. I write in defence of all the best Reformed Protestant Churches and specially of that of Scotland France and the Netherlands to whose Judgement and Authoritative power in Synods I acknowledge my Booke to be subject so I arrogate nothing but with due Dependence and subjection but the Five Ministers are as Independent as I am Dependent as imperious as I am subject and odedient to my Superiours If they will answer as I we shall no more contest They have gained me to them if I have not gained them to the Church of Christ Besides this These Questions cannot reasonably bee propounded to A.S. 1. for A.S. is no Sectary neither Independent Brownist Anabaptist Arminian c. condemned or rejected by the Church of England or any other well Reformed Church 2. He is no minister much lesse an Independent Minister 3. He is not a Suitor for a Toleration of any not tolerated or intolerable Religion as the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers 4. He has not written against the common Faith of Reformed Dependent Churches as they have 5. If he had done so he should judge himselfe bound to give Reason both of his Faith and answer all those who would ask for an account thereof 6. However you turne and returne the Interrogation yet are you bound to answer 1. M.S. takes upon him to answer but answereth not as we shall God willing heare His first answer is It is no arrogating for any Christian upon just occasion to make his Confession of faith But to what Question I pray answereth this I grant you this but answer you to my Question In whose name c. His second Answ The Confession of Faith in Doctrine that is in all the best Reformed Churches is theirs A.S. As wide as before the Question is not of the Confession of Faith but about the Apologie in whose name it is published c. 2. M.S. For one touching pure Discipline it was not found in Scotland whiles the Tyrannie of Bishops prevailed A.S. 1. Here he seemeth to acknowledge that being freed from Episcopall Tyrannie we have pure Discipline which I acknowledge to be true 2. If by pure Discipline he understands Presbyteriall Government wee had it when Bishops prevailed howbeit oppressed by Episcopacie 3. There is no Confession of Faith if it be taken strictly but of some points of Discipline in the Apologie but we cannot know of them in whose name I am not angry at their Confession of Faith as M.S. saith but sory for their Schismes and want of Charity neither is it true that I have opened other mens mouthes but God Efficiently and your Calumnies against the Church Occasionally have opened good mens mouthes against you Turdue sibi malum cacat and yee must be content to drink as ye have brewed for your selves 3. M.S. 3. The godly learned Fathers Tertullian Justin Martyr c. produced no Authority from men to Apologize for the truth The Scripture they Apologized for bore them out A.S. 1. It seemeth by this Answer that they Apologize only for Scripture and can produce no Christian Church that they Apologize for 2. Tertull. Justin Martyr and all the Fathers apologized in the name of all the true Christian Churches of their time and acknowledged themselves and their Apologies to be subject to the Judgement and Authoritative spirituall power of Synods and they were as Dependent upon them as ye are Independent 3. Howbeit their Apologies had no Authoritie of men yet were they able sure to tell from time to time in whose Names they did Apologize M.S. 4. The Parliament allowes the five Ministers more viz. to shew their Reasons therefore the less to shew their Opinion A.S. 1. This answereth not yet the Question 2. But the Parliament alloweth them not a particular clandestin Assemby separated from the Generall Assembly 3 It alloweth them not to print Apologies against all the best Reformed Protestant Churches when they are sitting in qualitie of Members of the Assembly and against the Opinion of the most part of the
of their opinions 5. Put the case it were so yet was it not so seasonable for them then to write as before M. S. Answereth 1. That many of these mists and not all 2 That they did but begin to scatter A. S. Iust but it was not so seasonable to write when any of them as when none of them begun to scatter or after as before they begun to scatter so to speake Morally that Apology was not seasonable since it was lesse seasonable then it would have been formerly M. S. Their motions were like the lowrings of an unconstant morning in which the mists ascend and anon descend and by and by ascend and turne into a Scottish mist that will wet an English man to the skin as our usuall Proverb is A. S. 1. This is but a Simile Quod nil probat 2. It is to be noted here how he noteth this Proverbiall jeer of a Scottish mist in a different sort of letter as conteyning some particular mystery and consequently worthy of the Readers particular observation 3. Yet I may say that the Independent mist is more able to drown all England Scotland and Ireland then a Scottish mist the outward part of an English mans cloathes and so will all true English and Christian hearts judge If any thing have befallen you since the change of the time of your Exile more imaginary then reall it was your owne fault in seducing the people in a clanculary way and in making of clandestine Assemblies and Conventicles which good Ministers could not endure seeing that nothing could content you unlesse that all should stoop under you Neither hath your Apology any waies diminished any ill but rather taken away the good opinion they had of you Afterwards M. S. accuseth not only the people but also Mr. Rutherford and Mr. Herle and sundry other Ministers A. S. his second reason is They who are called by the Parliament and admitted by the Assembly of Divines into the Assembly howsoever that calling was to finde them good and not to make them so are supposed by them to be innocent and not culpable and especially after that they have sate long in the Assembly of Divines with honour and good respect and consequently they are sufficiently vindicated from all false Accusations and have no need to Apologize for themselves that being farre away more sufficient to justifie them before the world then any Apology whatsoever that they can write for themselves But the Apologists were so called c. Ergo. This is the sense and forme by me intended of my Argument in the fourth Observation and not that that M. S. putteth upon it As for his instance of the Bishops against the first Proposition that they were called by the Parliament to the Assembly and yet they were not for all that supposed to be innocent or vindicated I Answer 1. That the Bishops were not admitted into the Assembly of Divines as they were 2. If they had been admitted and continued as long as they without reproach how can any doubt but that their sitting there should have served them for a sufficient justification and vindification of their honour in foro externo before men since it is not morally to be presumed that such a grave Senate will call or such a holy Assembly of such Learned and Reverend Divines will admit and retaine so long together any scandalous persons in their Assembly So this being testimonium alienum non proprium and publicum non privatum without all doubt it was sufficient to justifie them and more then any thing they can say in their owne behalfe since they cannot speake as Iudges but as Parties who are evermore justly suspected A. S. 3. Reason He or they who are sent by authority of Parliament into Scotland with the Parliaments Commissioners to treat of an extraordinary great Reformation of Religion in England and Ireland for the preservation of the Religion in Scotland in bringing them all to uniformity according to Gods Word and the Example of the best Reformed Churches and have ended the businesse with them are not morally to be presumed to be culpable but sufficiently freed from all filthy aspersions in matter of Religion that can have been laid upon them at least in foro externo wherein only they can be justified by men in this life for it is not Morally to be presumed that the Parliament would have imployed any but Orthodox men and good men in a matter of so high a concernment and consequently they needed not to Apologize for themselves or if they doe so it was unseasonably done But the Apologizers are such men If it be said only one of them was such a man Answ It is all one 1. For in matter of Religion they lye all under one and the same notion 2. At least that one needed not to Apologize as he did 4. Because being minded to make an Apology they should either not have made it at all being Members ' of the Assembly or have done it before their Admittance thereunto or after the Dissolving of the Assembly This had been a great deale more seasonable for it is not fit for a man to Apologize for himself in a cause wherein he sitteth as Iudge or when he sitteth as Iudge 5. We can finde no ordinary Example of such proceedings either in Scripture or Ecclesiasticall History 6. Because they did it in a season when the Church State stood in need of the Brotherly assistance of all the best reformed Churches and in that very nick of time they under-valued them all as not having the power of Piety as they themselves censured their Ecclesiasticall Discipline as not agreeable unto Gods Word and called them Calvinians whereof we have a sufficient proofe in a Letter sent to the Assembly from the Synod of Walachria wherein it complaineth much against this Booke because of the offence that the Reformed Churches received thereby 7. Because it was published against the Scots Discipline in that very nick of time most unseasonable when they were invited to come into England and when they came to hazard their lives for the Church and State of England and for the lives and states of these very men who in the meane while were writing against their Discipline QUEST 5. Whether the Quixqu ' Ecclesian Ministers should not have done better to have published their Opinions by way of Thoses or in some other Didactick way rather then by an Apologeticall Narration IMaintaine the Affirmative part 1. Because that of all other is the most accurate and easiest way to manifest cleerly their Opinions by both to the learned and ignorant 2. Because all other waies of teaching beget confusion for in them we cannot discerne that which is Substantiall from that which is Circumstantiall as we may see in Comedies Tragedies all sort of Verses long Speeches Prayers Dialogues c. 3. Because in this Apologeticall Narration it selfe many things are inserted which touch not the Businesse at all 4.
being presupposed I put this Conclusion All Persons in a Church or the whole Collective Body thereof have not Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction 1. They have not the power to exercise it 1. Because we read no such thing in Scripture viz. that ever God committed the Government of the Church to every idle Fellow that is a member thereof 2. Because it is contrary to the generall Ordinance of God 1 Tim. 3. that all Church-Officers be examined and tryed before their Admission And to the practise of the Old Testament in the religion of the Levites that served five yeares in their Apprenticeship 3. Because every particular member of the Church hath not the Ability to Iudge or Rule because of his ignorance and want of learning for every one in the Church cannot be learned for some there be that needs are spirituall some that be carnall some Babes in Christ some men some have need of milke some of meat 1 Cor. 3.1 2 3. 4. Because of their imprudence for some of the vulgar are somewhat precipitate and rash in the examination of matters others very slow in their judgement some in their speech and some in all which is not convenient in so grave matters in Iudging the Iudgements of the Lord. 5. Because some are vicious and culpable of the faults or crimes that are to be Iudged and condemned in others and therefore are not fit Iudges to Iudge them 6. Many in the Congregation may be friends Kinsmen or allyed with the party that is to be Iudged and so partiall wherefore some of the Congregation at the least in that case are to be excluded and by Consequence the simple Title of Christianity and profession thereof or to be a member of the Church gives not all christians this right but some other thing 7. If every one of the Church may Iudge or exercise Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction then women also whom Saint Paul commands to hold their peace in the Church 1 Cor. 14.34 and to be subject in obedience without Iurisdiction 8. All distracted men and babes should have power to Iudge and so those that are without Iudgment shold Iudge since they are members of the Church It may be answered that they admit not babes but those only that are in age and apparently regenerated Inst But then every member of the Church hath power to Iudge but men distracted are in age Ergo they have power to Iudge It may be answered that they understand that those only that are in age and have the use of reason should be admitted Inst 1. But when hath a man the use of Reason how shal they define that It is commonly defined by Philosophers and others the age of seven yeares which will make no very able Ecelesiasticall Senator here the Scripture is desicient they will admit nothing in Discipline but that which is commanded by Christ 2. What if a man in his old age begin to dote they may answer that then he is excluded because reason failes him Inst Then he must be declared not sitting which may breed division Jnst Item a man may be in age and yet little skilled in Divinity for to Iudge in matter of Heresie and be more vitious then when he was a childe And if a man be Iudged by babes children fooles and doting old men it is to be feared especially if the Iudged be rich that the Iudgement be the cause rather of division then concord so this Discipline being established all Schismes may break forth controversies and contentions They may answer that they establish these that are really or apparently in judgement of charity Saints as it may be collected from the Rom. c. 1.2 1 Cor. 1. Eph. 1. Phil. in the beginning of the chapters Reply But every particular man in every particular Congregation of the Visible Church whereof we only dispute is not nor can in speaking morally as falleth out ordinarily be a Saint 1. Because the Church is compared to a Ground whereof one part is by the way side the other stony another thorny another good To a Ground wherin growes Wheat and Tares To a Draw-Net receiving good and bad fishes Mat. 13. to a Society of wise and foolish Virgins Mat. 25. And to a House wherein there are Vessels to honour and dishonour There must be Offences or slanders saies Christ Math. 18.7 2. Howbeit they were all Saints yet should it not follow thereupon that they are all learned prudent judicious and endowed with other gifts to judge either in matters of Doctrine in Creating of Ministers and in Excommunicating of Hereticks or of Discipline which sometime requires some knowledge of the Civill law as in Cases of Matrimonie c. As for the Passages of St. Paul 1. I deny that he calls all the Members of the Church Saints Formally but the whole Body of the Church is so called or denominated because of the holinesse which is really or apparently inherent in some Members or parts thereof which denominates the whole Body as when a man is said to see because of the sight which is not inherent in all the parts of his Body but only in his Eye or wise for his wisdome which is inherent in his Soule alone 2. If it were otherwise the Apostle should have written untruths in these Texts for Rom. 16.17 18. he sayes Now I beseech you Brethren marke them which cause divisions and offences c. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly and 1 Cor. 5. It is known that the Incestuous man was not excommunicated Some of them were also Schismaticks saying that they were of Christ of Paul of Apolloes And what the Galathians were the whole Epistle testifies so that according to our Brethrens grounds there was no visible Church here and nothing could have been judged 3. It is not sanctification or holinesse of life but Politicall or Ecclesiasticall prudence that furnisheth their Abilities for 1. Sanctification is Gratia gratum faciens one sort of Grace or gift of the Spirit that renders us gracious or makes us acceptable to God But the facultie of Ruling and exercising of Jurisdiction in the Church is Gratia gratis data given gratiously only but makes us not gracious or acceptable to God as the Gift of Prophecie of Tongues Intepretation c. 2. The first is given us principally for our own benefit the other principally for other mens benefit and therfore 3. the first is for to save a man himself the second to save others when peradventure he may be damned himselfe as we see in Judas who had the grace of Prophecie whereby he saved others but damned himselfe and did preach salvation to others beleeving but damnation to himselfe unbeleeving 4. The first makes one a good Christian the other a good Citizen in the exteriour Societie of the Church alone yea 5. I may boldly say that a man may be a good Preacher or Prophet or Ruler in the Church and an ill Christian if hee preach
the truth and with edification or rule well and beleeve not which may bee done by a very wicked man Mat. 7.19 20 21 22 23. and another may be a good man but an ill Preacher Prophet or Ruler if he have sanctifying grace and have not so great abilities to preach or to rule as an other who perchance is an Atheist or if he be somewhat negligent in the exercise of his charge The Apostle sayes not that all that were in their Churches were Saints either really or appearingly but to all the Saints 4. It is probable also and some of them grant it that all the Members of the Church in those texts of Scripture are called Saints or holy 1. because of the holiness of the Covenant 2. Or holy because of the holy Confession 3. Or holy Profession 4. Or of the holy Sacraments of the holy Covenant wherunto they were partakers or finally because of their externall Vocation to salvation But all this makes them not learned prudent judicious nor furnishes them with other abilities which are needfull for the exercise of Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction 5. But put the case that we should grant them all this yet can they not escape thus saying that in so doing they admit not all those that are actually received in the Church as her Children and members to the exercise of Ecclesiastical Discipline but the lesser part for there are more ignorant then learned and ill men then good in the Church or at least that have not the gifts required therunto and so in rejecting they are forced to admit some Election and establish some representative Church by the admission of some and the exclusion of others so that in this point they differ not from us in not admitting a Representative Church but in admitting a greater and more Vast Representatative Church then we and the members thereof of lesse Abilities 6. Hence it follows that men have not right to exercise Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction in qualitie of Christians professing Christ since women and others have it not but in some other consideration which we desire to know viz. whether it be not for their Abilitie and so it is not to be found in all 7. This rejection of some yea of the greater part of the Church as women children old men ignorants Vitious men and others that have not the abilitie to judge as all unholy and prophane men and admission of others that are the lesser part as sanctified men in whom only consists the Church is capable to breed Divisions in their Church if the people have power to judge For accordingly they will judge in favour of themselves to be admitted and so procure a schisme and quarrell for the taking away whereof the Government accordingly is established let them take it into consideration how hard it is for any man yea for the most part of the Church to be declared ignorant imprudent young of an unripe judgement and doting c. and to the Church and see the lesse part which pretends to be the only Church declared apt and fit to their owne exclusion and what thereupon may ensue in a Democraticall Government upon such filthy and infamous aspersions in checking the greater part as prophane it may peradventure stirre up a bellum servile more dangerous to the Church then that amongst the Romans 8. The Doctrine that destroyes Gods holy Ordinance viz. the Distinction which he has put betwixt the Rulers of the Church and them that are ruled and are to obey cannot be admitted as our Brethren will confesse But the Doctrine that gives to every Member of the Church power and administration of Jurisdiction in ruling and governing the Church is such For God hath ordained some to rule and others to obey Rom. 12.8 1 Cor. 12. Eph. 4. 1 Thess 5.12 1 Tim. 5.17 Heb. 13.17 Obey them that rule over you and submit your selves unto them Now then if some be Rulers and others to obey we cannot all be Rulers as it appeares 1. Cor. 12.28 29. And God hath set some in the Church Apostles and Governments c. Are all Apostles c Where he sayes that one gift is not given to every Member of the Church Note that he speaks here of those gifts or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that are called gratia gratis data not for our own but for other mens use Ergo this order cannot be admitted 9. No confused Discipline or government of Gods Church can be ordained by God for God is not the God of Confusion 1. Cor. 14.33 But that wherein every one of the people hath Jurisdiction or juridicall power is a confused Discipline or government Ergo It cannot be ordained by God The Major will be granted since it is Gods word The Minor is evident For I put the case that in a Church composed of some 20000 persons there be some point of Doctrine to be decided what disorder and confusion should it not breed if every one of that huge multitude yea every illiterate and idle fellow should come and propound his idle thoughts By what wisdome of man could this many-headed beast be reduced to order It may be answered that they should be wise But we reply they are not nor can that be hoped or expected in this life nay doe any beleeve it either Donatists or Anabaptists and howbeit they were all wise to salvation yet followes it not that they should all be wise for Government and Examination of all Church Officers 10. The exercise of the Discipline of the Church is morally possible for God will not that his Church be governed by an order that is impossible But this Democraticall and Plebeian exercise of Discipline is not morally possible for if there were 20. or 30. points to be judged by such a huge multitude certainly they could not easily discusse and judge every point For if every one of 20000 should give his advise and peradventure be interrupted by some and then begin his discourse againe which ordinarily falls out amongst rude people when should the Examen and discussion of the businesse be ended Grant to every one of them but halfe an houre whereas I warrant you some should take halfe a day or halfe a yeare and say little to the purpose and yet make 〈…〉 of one businesse onely employing 12. hours a day counting the Lords day also should amount to two yeares and foure moneths or thereabouts so that here there is too much delay for a businesse should scarce ever be judged or ended what should become of all other businesse What if in this one question there should fall out 20. or 30. Incidents whereof every one should take up as much time as the principall Question which quicke witted men may easily procure when then should a Question be ended It may be answered that there may be some order taken for deliberating and consulting which may hinder this as at Rome where there were 1000. Senators and in Paris where at the Parliament there are 200. Senators
transgression of the Politicall Law of Moses c. yea it is probable that they were not abrogated at all by Christ among the people of the Iewes since they were Juris Naturalis quoad substantiam Politici quoadmodum for he came not to abrogate but to fulfill the Law And so hath all the Christian world hitherto understood this Passage whose Iudgements we cannot easily reject without some solid ground and so much the rather for that since Iesus Christ his time till some forty or fifty yeares agoe or thereabouts never any man of esteeme did ever dreame of such a Popular and confused Government if yee except Morellies And so is the word Ecclesia taken Deut 31.28 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Septuagint translates it gather unto me all the Elders of your Tribes and Officers and Deut. 23. v. 1 2 3. it is commanded that he that is hurt by Bursting or hath his privie members cut off that is a Bastard an Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the Congregation or Ecclesia even to the Tenth Generation Here Ecclesia or Congregation cannot signifie the Reall but the Representative Congregation For it had been unjust to exclude any man from the reall Church consequently from Gods Covenant that desired to be therein If it had been so they could not have received any Proselytes which is against Gods Law Exod. 23.48 where it is commanded to admit unto the Passeover all Strangers that would be circumcised so that which was said to the Elders of Israel that were the Representative Congregation Exod. 2.16 is said to have been said to the Sons of Israel that were the Reall Congregation Exod. 14. and the Text confirmes it for Moses had not charge to say that the Lord would bring up out of Affliction the Elders only but also the People 25. This Doctrine at once condemnes all the Martyrs and Councells and all their practise in Ecclesiasticall Government 26. Our Brethren holde that the absent part of the Church may give over or remit their power of Iudging to them that are present and that the lesser part are bound to acquiesce with the major part in voycing wherefore then may not all the People give over or remit their power of Iudging to a certaine number of the wisest such as the Representative Church is or acquiesce unto their Iudgements 27. To whom the Apostles in the first Constitution of the Church at their last Farewells committed the power of Iurisdiction and Ordination to those it is to be committed at this present But to Church-Officers or to the Representative Body of the Church alone did the Apostles in the first Constitution of the Church at their last Farewell committed the power of Iurisdiction Ordination c. Acts 20. 1 Pet. 5. Ergo. But our Brethren reply that we cannot shew any Place in all the holy Scriptures or prophane Authors where the word Church is taken in this signification viz. for the Representative Church or Congregation A. Whereunto we answer 1. That the stile of Scripture must not be sought in prophane Authors but in Scripture it selfe 2. Some give some Examples in prophane Authors 3. In Scripture our Adversaries will never finde any place wherein the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is taken for all the Reall Parochiall Church to the exclusion of children women all those that have not the use of Reason and that are notoriously vicious as it is taken by themselves 4. We on the other side to confirme the signification wherein it is taken by us viz. for the Representative Congregation present them with these places 1 Exod. 3. v. 14. Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel i. e. unto the representative Body of the children of Israel viz. the Elders of Israel gathered together as it is expounded v. 16.2 Exod. 12. In the institution of the Passeover v. 3. Speake yee unto all the Congregation of Israel i. e. the Elders which were the Representative Body of Israel as it is expounded v. 21. and Reason confirmes it for they could not in so short a time speake to all the Reall Congregation composed of so many thousands neither could they easily be gathered together into one place nor could it be done without apparent danger Item Numb 35.24 in speaking of Murther through ignorance the Revenger of the blood and the Cities of Refuge It is said that the Congregation shall Iudge between the slaine and the Revenger of Blood according to those Iudgements without doubt the Congregation here cannot signifie all the Reall but the Representative Congregation i. e. the Elders 1. Because so it is expounded Deut. 19.2 and Iosua 20.4 5 6. 2. because it was not for every one of the people or the Reall Congregation but belonged to the Elders that were the Representative Body thereof to Iudge of the Blood And Deut. 31.28 Gather unto me all the Elders of your Tribes and your Officers the 70. turne it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Now if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie to congregate By the Rules of Conjugata it followes that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies a Congregation that was congregated or gathered together from amongst the rest But the Ecclesia or Congregation that was here gathered together was not all the Reall but the Representative Congregation consisting of Elders c. as appeares by the Text Ergo. So it is said that Solomon assembled the Elders of Israel and all the Heads of the Tribes c. 1 Reg. 8.1 And that David assembled all the Princes c. 1 Chro. 28.1 so the word Congregation is taken for the Representative Body thereof 1 Chro. 13.1 2 3 4 for David could not speake to all the Congregation but to the Captaines and Chieftaines thereof as it appeares v. 1. and 4. 5. neither could they all goe with him Deutrinomy 23.1 2 3. It is commanded that neither he who is bursten or that hath his privie members cut off or that is a Bastard an Ammonite or a Moabite shall enter into the Congregation or in Ecclesia even to the tenth Generation here the word Ecclesia or Congregation must not signifie the Reall but the Representative Congregation for it should have been unjust and cruell to have excluded from the Church and consequently from the Covenant of God any of those that desired to be admitted thereunto 2. For then they could not have received any of those Nations for Proselytes to the tenth generation 3. Because this is repugnant to another Law of God Exod. 23.48 where it is commanded to admit unto the Passeover all Strangers circumcised 28. If every member of the Church should have power to Governe or a power of Iurisdiction in every Ecclesiasticall Cause Ergo of teaching also and of Deaconship for there is a parity of reason in both for there be some points of Controversie as hard to be Iudged as it would be to master a Sermon and it is much difficulter to rule then to exercise the charge of
only to pull in pieces the garment but even the Body of our Lord and his Spirituall Tabernacle and to take away from the Church the title of the Communion of Saints to divide that which God hath joyned together by his Holy Spirit the which being the spirit of peace inspires where ever it bloweth peace concord and brotherly and charitable communication and leades us to lend each other of us the hand to maintaine the whole together in a spirituall sympathy and a reciprocall ayding and assisting one of another 11. Besides that under the pretence of casting out Tyranny it is to introduce and bring in an Anarchie and confusion into the House of God and to open a wide gate to all sorts of disasters which are apparently unavoy dable if every particular Church shake off all manner of Yoake and refuse to give an account of its behaviour unto the assembly of his Brethren attributing unto itselfe an absolute power to doe whatsoever it selfe please without answering unto any therefore save to God only For if we open a gare to such a licentiousnesse the Socinians the Anabaptists and generally all sort of Hereticks Fanaticks and Enthusiastsshall quickly find the mean of seducing the people to possesse themselves of the Pulpits and so to make havock of the Churches of God 12. Moreover this pretended Independence ingageth them that maintaines it in a manifest contradiction for since they confesse that the Church of England is a Body they must necessarily avow that its parts ought to be united and tyed together which should be absolutely impossible should every Church be obliged to make a combination a part and to stand Independent upon another Church 13. From the very birth of the Christian Church unto this present there hath never been such a Government established as these men at this time propound on the contrary the mutual and reciprocall dependence of Churches and the uniting of them all together to a certaine Ecclesiasticall Order and Politie having been debated by a common deliberation hath been accepted voluntarily by all and hath ever been judged absolutely necessary 14. But to rest my selfe upon the Scripture alone we have it formally enjoyned without any exception to submit our selves one to another in the feare of God Eph. the 4. and to goe one before another Rom. 12. God would have every thing in his House decently and in order and as the spirit of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets so those that Prophesie ought to subject themselves one to the other remembring that God is not the God of confusion but of peace 1 Cor. 14. 15. The Apostle Saint Paul had beene called by our Lord Iesus Christ unto the Apostleship immediatly so as that he had neither received nor learnt any thing of any man and yeelded not in any thing to to those that would seeme something and acknowledged not that those that were in place had added any thing unto him notwithstanding he tooke not himselfe for an Independent but after that he had three yeares together Preached the Gospell and wrought divers miracles he disdaines not to goe to Ierusalem to visit Peter and to receive the right hand of fellowship And like wise he went up ten yeares after by Revelation to Ierusalem to conserte with the Apostles touching the Gospell to the end saith he least by any meanes I had not or should have run in vaine Gal. 2 In conclusion after that he had undergone a world of troubles and was become famous for many signes and miracles and had made the Gospel of Christ to flourish from Ierusalem unto Illyricum Rom. 1.17 he maketh no difficulty or scruple to submit himselfe unto the Counsell that the Church of Ierusalem gave him although he had never required any Counsell at their hands Acts 21. 16. Saint Peter that was the first in order in the Colledge of the Apostles beleeves not himselfe to be an Independent when he perceiveth that they were offended with his manage of the affaires he presents himselfe boldly to his Brethren as they were assembled in Ierusalem and gives them an account of what had passed by the meanes of his Ministery in the Calling of the Gentiles Act 11. And when he went not the right way to the truth of the Gospell he endured himself to be reprehended publickly by the Apostle Saint Paul Gal. 2. 17. The Church of Antioch was the first that was honoured with the Title of Christian and it had famous men immediatly inspired by the Holy Ghost Amongst others Saint Paul and Barnabas And yet notwithstanding when there hapned amongst them a Controversie of importance it presumed not to decide it of it selfe alone it presumed not to shew it selfe Independent but contrariwise it sent Paul and Barnabas with some others to Hierusalem where a Councell was called consisting of the Apostles and Elders And the Question that was first of all moved and debated at Antioch was examined and decided at Hierusalem to the glory of God and the edification of the Church Acts 15. 18. For very great important and just reasons it is decreed to abolish the Episcopacy but it were lesse mischiefe and inconvenience by farre to suffer it after that the Excesses of it were corrected and the Tyranny abolished then to bring in such an horrible confusion as is vailed under this name of Independency 19. God be thanked there is no need to come to that For if the Church of England will observe the order already happily established in ours and the Churches of Scotland if I mistake not it shall receive much profit and edification thereof and shall see the Gospell of Iesus Christ and of true Piety reigne and flourish more then ever in the midst of her people 20. In every particular Church there ought to be a Body made up of Pastors or of Pastors Ancients and Deacons that may meet in Consistory upon set and appointed daies to advise by common consent of the Affaires and the Government of the Church 21. If there be but one Pastor in these Consistories He presides there evermore But if there chance to be more they preside by turnes 22. In great Cities and Townes as in London where there are many Parishes every Parish may have its particular Consistory made up of Pastors Ancients and Deacons And yet notwithstanding to entertaine an holy Christain like and Brotherly union and concord such as ought to be among the Faithfull that are of the same Towne we are of Opinion that it would doe well that every weeke or Moneth at least a Generall Consistory should be held where the other Consistories should meete either in their Bodies or by their Deputies if their number be too great The Pastors of the several Parishes may preside by turnes or as it shall be agreed upon by a common choise And the businesses that shall be there propounded shall be there decided by plurality of voyces 23. Over and above this It will be needfull to establish the
sure at the rising of the Assembly to murmure at and condemne the Iudgements that were passed if either they were not to their good liking or that they found them not to be grounded upon such Reasons as themselves approved of 5. As to that that they permit any one whatsoever if he have the ability to Preach publickly in their Assemblies notwithstanding that he have not Orders This is one of the greatest Disorders that can possibly happen in the world This what is it other but to bring in all kinde of Fanatiques and Enthusiasts and to expose Christian Religion to be made a laughing-stock to the Enemies of Gods Truth And to make of the House of God which is an House of Order a Babell of Disorder and horrible Confusion It will serve them to little purpose to alleadge for themselves the Example of the Ancient Church in the Times of the Apostles for in those times all the faithfull had Extraordinary Graces as also the guift of Prophecie and yet for all that were those holy Prophets to stay till they were bidden to speake and untill such time as it was said to them as to St. Paul and Barnabas Men Brethren If you have any word of Exhortation speake on which was a kind of Vocation Now a daies when men have not such Infusions of Guifts but that they acquire the Sciences and abilities for Preaching by study and paines God powring forth his blessing upon their industry it were to mocke God and men to require that all men should Preach indifferently without any praevious Examen of their Guifts or the dexterity they have to divide the Word of God to Edification 6. As to that That many maintaine that every man ought to have liberty to make profession of whatsoever Religion himselfe thinkes best how bad soever it be provided that he attempt nothing against the State wherein he lives this is a Libertinisme not to be indured in the House of God and it is flatly against his Word For in the Old Testament it was not permitted to any to make profession of any other Religion save that which God himselfe had instituted And you know what God ordained against false Prophets that turne away the people from his service Deut. 13. As also in the New Testament how St. Paul wills us to take heed of such as make Divisions and raise scandalls against that Doctrin that we have learn't and that we turne away from them Rom. 16. And that if an Apostle or an Angell from Heaven preach another Gospell unto us then hath been preached that he be accursed Gal. 1. yea St. Iohn very sweetnesse and Charity it self will not at any hand that we receive into our houses no not that we so much as bid God speed to those that bring us not the Doctrin of the Gospell 7. As to that That they make no reckoning either of the Iudgement or Consent of other Reformed Churches but reject them as an humane Argument I see they have profited little in Saint Pauls Schoole whose Lesson is that we submit our selves one to another in the feare of God and that in giving honour we goe one before the other and that the spirits of the Prophets be subject to the Prophets God forbid we should ever place Gods Ordinances and the Ecclesiasticall Constitutions in the same ranke together Whatsoever God sayes should be unto us a Law inviolable But as for men we are to prove all things and to hold that which is good For as much as concernes the Foundation or Essence of Religion there is none but God alone that can ordain any thing in it But as to the Exteriour Order and Policy of the Church That wise Father of his Family is content to leave with us his Generall Word of direction That in his House all things be done decently and in order He leaves the particulars to the pious prudence of such as he hath called to the guidance and Government of his people It is their duty when they are met together in the name of the Lord to be earnest Suiters and Suppliants unto him that he will please to preside in the midst of them and put in their hearts to doe those things that shall be most expedient for his Glory and the Edification of his Children The Government of other Reformed Churches layes no absolute yoake upon us nor can it be propounded as any infallible Law But true it is it ought to be a Patterne and Example for our imitation if so be we finde no manifest repugnancies in it to the Word of God But if there be any that is resolved to be contentious hereabouts we have no such custome nor yet have the Churches of God 1 Cor. 2.16 We hold for certaine that there neither is nor ought to be any Office for teaching and governing the Church which should not have its foundation and ground in Gods Word And so the Office of Minister Pastor Bishop Ancient and Deacon are founded immediatly Formally and Expresly on the Word of God howsoever some there be that will needs have the Office of Ancients as it is now practised in the Reformed Churches to have no other ground at all in Scripture save onely by Analogy and as it is drawne thence by necessary Consequence as they speake which in conclusion is one and the same thing For that which is deduced by necessary Consequence from Scripture is every jot as much in Scripture as that what ever it is that is there in Expresse Termes All this is agreeable and conforme with 29. and 30. Articles of the Confession of Faith where it is said That our Lord hath established this Policy and Government in his Church viz. by Pastors Over-seers or Ancients and Deacons And that those that are true Pastors in what place soever they inhabit have the very same Authority and equall power under the Lord Iesus Christ the chiefe Pastor and Bishop of our soules Act. 6.4 Eph. 4.11 1 Tim. 3.1 Tit. 1.5 Matth. 20.26.18.2 2 Cor. 1.27 1 Pet. 5.3 Sentiment d'u grand Theologien de France Touchant l'Independence declarè en une Lettre addresseè a Mr. Buchanan VN mien amy homme vertueux craignant Dieu m'a adverti que quelques personnes trouvent mauvais l'ordre establi en nos Eglises par le quel les Consistoires sont subjects aux Colloques les Colloques aux Synodes Provinciaux les Provinciaux aux Nationaux Ils voudroient que chaque Consistoire eust une authoritè absolue qui ne dependist d'aucune assemblée superieure la dessus ce mien amy me demande quel est mou seutiment la chose est de telle nature de telle importance que je nay peu luy refuser ce qu'il requiert de moy Je dis donc que ceux qui font telles Propositions ne doivent estre creus si on suiuois leur advis il ne s'en pourroit ensuiure que le renversement de l'Eglise une
shall shew hereafter that ye are not Separatistae nominales but reales If the Church lie now gasping as you complain who I pray can be the cause of it but your selves that vex and torment her more then Papists Arminians Anabaptists Socinians and all other Sects and Heresies besides ever yet did P. 2. sect 4. Thou art a strange Divine that consultest Astrologues about the Horoscope of my Book But to that I say no more but what the Prophet saith Stand up with thine enchantments and with the multitude of thy sorceries if so be thou maiest prevaile Let now the Astrologers the Star-gazers the monethly Prognesticators stand up Jer. 10.12 I am not dismayed at the signe of the heaven for the Heathen are dismaid at them I tell thee with all thy Chaldeans and Sorcerers I feare you not all Christians feare not such Prophets God hath raised us up a Prophet like to Moyses whom we must heare and Moyses tels thee that they who doe these things that thou doest are an abomination to the Lord Deut. 18.10 11 12 13 14 15. After this sect 6. in the same pag. he giveth out his judgement upon the title of my Book but without the least judgement or reason at all P. 3. Sect. 1. He accuseth me to be too peremptorious in determining the question and so anticipating the judgement of the Assembly Answ 1. If I anticipate so I must tell him does he with the rest of the Sectaries of his Faction in determining the question for his party 2. particular mens Determinations cannot anticipate the judgement of the Assembly or take it out of their hands as most ignorantly hee pretends for particular mens private Determinations are evermore subject to publike Determination 3. Neither is it necessary that when ever Sects or Heresies creepe into the Church wee should presently all begin to suspend our judgements in things revealed in Gods word and already determined by the Church as this is as we shall God willing hereafter make appeare and so stand ever gaping after new Decisions I should doe my selfe wrong to answer the 2 Sect. Which conteineth only his unreasonable judgement against me who say nothing of Independents but what I prove by evident Reasons And the judgements of Protestant Churches abroad here printed will decide this Controversie But what he saith from the rest of the third page till page the 6. Sect 3. it shall be an swered in a particular question P. 4. Sect. 2. A.S. his Observations are like a man with a Pole-ax knocking a man on the head to kill a fly lighting on his heard Answ What this man meaneth by his Pole-axe I know not I strike at no mans head If I strike at any fly it must be some Wasp and then either a Hornet that stingeth to death the Horse of whose dung it is bred or a Wasp with which Tertullian not unfitly compareth Sectaries faciunt favos vespae faciunt Ecclesias Marcionite quid ni Donatista P. 6. Sect. 3. He propounds himselfe for a pattern to me in writing But hee must excuse me if I tell him plainly I hold him not worthy the imitating neither may I ever so much reverence any of his party as to quit my Christian liberty to refute their extravagancies where ever I meet with them especially when they appeare to be of so pernicious a consequence As for the title of Most revenend that I gave them I learn't it in part of themselves that they are reverend and since their reverence is independent what else could I take it for but most reverend that acknowledge no superiour Reverence Sect. 5. Howsoever of his liberality hee bestow the lie on me I must pray him permit me to return it home again for what I said before by his good leave I must say again it is most true that in your particular Opinions ye differ from all true reformed Churches at least so far forth as they are distinguished from Conventicles and Schismaticall Assemblies And as for your Reformed Churches in England viz. Independent from which ye differ not 1. they are invisible 2. they are Schismaticall 3. and erected without the Civill Magistrates consent and such Churches your selves hold unlawfull turbulent Schismaticall and punishable in N.E. And if in N.E. wherefore I pray not in old England also Sect. 6. And as for that his conjecture that I wil object some Manuscripts and Master Parkers letter from N.E. and another from Zeland it is his mistake for it was not my intention to dispute in a liminary Epistle only I say of Master Parker since he puts me upon this subject that if he were at his liberty in O.E. as he is in servitude under that oppression of N.E. he might happily say more then he will be allowed to say there P. 7. Sect. 1. It is also a great mistake in him to think that their Discipline can be abused to ill it cannot be abused but to good P. 8 Sect. 1. It is an abominable accusation and a black calumnie that hee layeth upon the Reformed Churches of Zeland viz. that there are in their letters many high passages seeming so prejudiciall to our worthy Magistracy that it justifieth that of the Apologie 2. for that letter speaketh not at all of the Magistrate or Magistracy of England 2. It speaketh only of their own wherof this little Independent Minister is too bold to thinke himselfe a competent Judge Neither will they depend of him howbeit he should a spire to be as Independent as Lucifer himself 3. They speak not of all their Magistrates but of some and especially of those who joyned with the Arminian Sect The Arminians crying up their authority in the Spirituall government of the Church and these unworthy Magistrates crying down the Doctrine 4. Because the Government of Holland and the Magistrates power there is not like to that of England the one being Monarchicall or rather mixt of Monarchicall Aristocraticall and Democraticall as it is commonly holden here and the other Aristocraticall or mixt of Aristocracy and Democracy and therefore the rules of the one Government cannot be well drawn in consequence for the other 5. This M.S. cognomento Calumniator in this matter should have done well and gone more honestly to work if he had cited those high passages so prejudiciall to our worthy Magistracy but he shewes himselfe more cunning then so to discover his calumny 6. As for his sententious conclusion of this point with Verbum sapienti sat est a man very well affectioned to the Zelanders in reading of it added in the margin of the Book sed non insipientis nedum decipientis It is as great pitty so good men should have harboured so ill and so unthankfull Guests P. 9. Sect. 3. He speaketh as if he were a Prophet sent to reforme all the Churches of the world so did Bur Jesu and bringeth us in I know not what a Master Davenport like another Salomon in the way of N.E. casting out his
direct Charity beleeve and Faith love the Sense desire and the Appetite feele It is utterly false that hereupon it followeth that the will is an unreasonable Faculty for howbeit it be not a reasonable directive yet it is a reasonable imperative Faculty And this I pray you most considerate Philosopher as you call your selfe to learn of me for however you inconsiderately judge that we take our Principles up upon trust yet could I have helped you with a dozen of Arguments more probable then that ridiculous one that ye have brought us P. 21. Sect. 8 He saith that I contradict my selfe in these following Propopositions viz. 1. The five Ministers Discourse is most learned 2. The five Ministers Discourse commeth very short weak and slender and no wayes satisfactory 3. The five Ministers discourse is errour 4. The five Ministers are most learned 5. The five Ministers are less learned then I am A Contradiction is between two propositions consisting of the same termes the one affirmative the other negative both singular or the one universall and the other particular If any such Propositions be found in my Book hee saith true and I will confesse it if not he is bound to acknowledge himselfe a lyer Now in all these five Propositions see whether there be any such thing yea or not As for the first which he imagineth to be contradictory to the next two 1. They are all affirmative 2. Never an one of them has the same Attribute 3. In the second he omitteth some words of mine viz. these to their Arguments 4. The third Proposition is not mine In the 4. and 5. Propositions which he calleth contradictory 1. They are both affirmative 2. The fifth is not mine but falsly attributed by him unto me So see courteous Reader whether he has more reason to say of me The man maketh nothing of Contradictions or I to say of him This man with the power of piety maketh nothing of falsifications and lying What he saith more to my Epistle it meriteth not an answer since it conteineth nothing else save only some stories of his Independent Gossips more fit a great deale to be told to old wives mislead by prejudices then to be read by men of judgement As concerning the 3. sect pag. 22. I repent not my selfe at all but thank my God that I have written against your Sect And I promise you God willing to continue all my life long so doing if he call me not to some other employment wherein I may glorifie him more Only here I pray thee Reader to observe this mans vanity and madnesse who thinking it but a small thing to offend me all along hitherto with his injurious Pen has run out of the links to pursue His Majestie because of the name which he hateth in my person and therefore that all the world may take notice of him how couragious he is he concludeth All that I have to say to A.S. here is only to sigh over this name S. in four men as fatall to this poore England and Scotland c. Well I will not say the rest for feare that if ever thou be exalted thou say not that I have been the cause in accusing thee Only I know not what Schooles of Magick thou hast frequented or curious Arts thou hast learned or what occult vertue thou conceivest to be in Names none but Magicians and they who are given to curious but unlawfull Sciences are of thy opinion My name I thank God is no shame to me I pray God thou be not a shame to thy Name and thy Profession both And so much for the justification of my Epistle consisting of halfe a sheet of paper in a very faire letter in the pretended refutation whereof what with language jeers injuries c. this man hath employed no lesse then 22. pages in quarto of a small Print if the cyphers mark well All which I have fully refuted with sundry Reasons howsoever I found none at all or very few in his writing in lesse then three leaves in 4o. as I beleeve Now let us see what he will say to my Observations Consideration 1. A.S. VVHether in any Ecclesiasticall or Politicall Assembly of the Christian world wherein things are carried by Plurality of voyces it be ordinary for any inconsiderable number of men to joyne in a particular combination among themselves and therin to take particular Resolutions and to publish them unto the world and so to anticipate upon the Resolutions of the whole Assembly Answ 1. M.S. We have heard of some Parliaments in Europe that the House of Peers is so constitute that if a Vote pass where som's Consciences amongst them cannot yeeld to they may modestly enter in the House their dissent from it Rep. A.S. But your five Ministers have not done so there was no Vote at all passed upon all the Articles that are debated in their Apologeticall Narration 2. And therefore neither entred they nor could they enter their Vote of dissent 3. If the House of Peers be so constitute it followeth not that the Assembly of Divines should be so constitute 4. The Apologists have not contented themselves with these Priviledges of the Peers or that are granted to any Parliament or Synod men viz. to enter modestly their dissent from it but they have gone further for before that ever things were Voted they published them to all the world 5. They did it not modestly but with great insolence insulting over all Protestant Churches as if they alone had the power of piety or as if they in their Churches had it in a higher degree then all other Christian Churches 6. When the Peers do so they doe it not as your Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers viz. by Conventicling themselves in secret and a part not imparting their designe to their Brethren and subscribing an Apologie together 7. If it was not to crosse the proceeding and Disputes of the Assembly wherefore I pray could it be 8. Neither could it be to tell the Kingdome de facto what they held and practised 1. For if it be so wherefore are they Petitioners in the last page of their Apology for a latitude and Toleration in Religion 2. Wherfore travaile they in all their Book to refute the Presbyterian Government received in the best Reformed Churches 3. If you Sir can procure of your five Ministers to sweare that what you say of them here is true you may be better beleeved then yet you are 4. And I pray you tell us if they have told you that they had no other draught in all their Apologie then what you declare here 5. If they affirme it in Conscience certainly their mind has not been like to their Book 6. If it be so what is the reason that they declared not themselves before that they were Members of the Assembly or before such time as these matters were debated there 7. I ask you whether in that Book they declare not what was their opinion and what they
were resolved to maintain 8. And whether it was the duty of those that were to be judged before that ever matters were propounded or debated in their Assembly to propound them and debate them themselves before the people before all the Water-men Mid-wives and children yea and the whole Kingdome Was there ever any such way taken in any Synod or Assembly in this world before this time M.S. But they declare themselves to close neerer with the Assembly were they all Presbytortans as we know the contrary then thousands ever thought they would A.S. This is but your fiction for if I should tell you some mens judgement mine own concerning you before the beginning of this Assembly I must say wee never thought that your Opinions could have been so absurd as we have fince found them in your Books we beleeved that ye were all to-gether conform with the rest of the Protestant Churches and that what ye did in separating your selves from Episcopall Government it was meerly out of necessity because of their persecution And I can assure you that this was the charitable construction that thousands of the Scots and French Protestants made of your proceedings 2. This your pretended Fact is grounded upon a Supposition contrary to your knowledge as you declare in your Parenthesis as we know the contrary and therefore is de ente possibili non de actuali M.S. they do profess themselves so unwedded to their former prastises that upon discovery of more light they are most willing to let it in A.S. This is the common tone of all Sectaries so did the Arminians say would to God that they and others of that Sect were so minded and thought not it rather derogatorie to the honour of so Independent Spirits to receive any light at all from others whose Spirits are subject to the Spirits of the Prophets But yee receive honour one from another c. But all this is not satisfactory to my Question in this Observation M.S. Seeing all he has said to be little or nothing to purpose and not answering to my Question he bringeth here his pretended Achilles his main answer The Assembly is not saith he to conclude things by pluralitie of Votes if you dare beleeve the Ordinance of parliament whose words are to confer and treat touching Doctrine Discipline c. and to deliver their Opinions and Advices as shall be most agreeable to the word of God And in case of difference of opinions among the said Divines they shall present the same together with the Reasons thereof to the Houses of Parliament This taketh away in his conceit pluralitie of voyces and doth more then allow so much as is done in the Apologeticall Narration A.S. I deny that the Assembly is not to conclude any thing by Plurality of Votes for they conclude by Plurality of Votes even those Opinions and Advices that they are to deliver to the Parliament and if it were not so they could not at all conclude their Opinions and Advices 1. And as for the Ordinance it commandeth one thing viz. to conferre c. but it forbiddeth not the other viz. to conclude things by Plurality of Votes 2. Howbeit it should forbid them in some manner to conclude some things by plurality of Votes yet should it not follow that it forbiddeth them absolutely and altogether 3. If any thing can be indirectly inferred of against concluding of things by pluraelity of voyces it is only this viz. That the Assembly in case of dissent amongst themselves shall conclude nothing before that they present it together with their Reasons to the Houses of Parliament and the reason is because howsoever the Church may conclude things by Ecclesiasticall authority yet cannot her Authority make it to be received in the Kingdome by Law and it is the Magistrates duty before that he establish it by Civill Authority and make it to passe as a Law that may oblige his Subjects in foro civili that he first informe himselfe throughly and know well upon what ground he passes it and this may be cleerly proved by the practice of the Primitive Church for howsoever there the Ministers of the Church concluded many things by their Canons without civill Authority in foro Ecclesiastico yet the Civill Magistrate afterwards after due information concluded the same things in foro civili as wee see through all the first 14. Titles of the first Book of the Code But out of this it cannot be inferred that after they have delivered their Advices to the Parliament they cannot conclude it if they have the power of a Synod 4. Yea I may say more that the Ministers of the Primitive Church in the first three hundred years after Christ exercised this Authority against the Civill Magistrates will in foro Ecclesiastice But praised be God our Ministers have no cause to doe so 5. Neither is it credible even according to the Independents their own Tenets that those they hold to be Lay-men only should by their lay-Authority build us up a Confession of Faith create and depose Ministers exercise the power of the Keyes in Censures and Excommunications c. Neither read we of any Prince or Civill Magistrate that ever usurped that power Neither remember I any that ever maintained it besides Sectaries 6. Yee your selves will not admit them to be ruling Elders how then admit ye them to bee Supreame Ecclesiasticall Judges in Ecclesiasticall and Spirituall matters viz. in matters of Doctrine c. Some will object but what if a Ministers Conscience cannot assent to that which the Assemby passes by plurality Votes in such a case may he not oppose himselfe to the rest Answ He may oppose himselfe in reasoning the businesse all along till it come to be concluded by Plurality of Votes but after that it is once concluded he must in foro externo according to Gods ordinary providence let it passe yea subscribe unto their Iudgements for in such a subscription he subscribes not that it is his particular judgement or according to his private Conscience but that it is the publick Iudgement of the Assembly 2. And if ye will oppose the whole Assembly because that it is against your particular judgement and Conscience so shall they all oppose you silly man and so nothing at all shall be concluded 3. Yea were it not as I say no Senate no Councell no Parliament no Ecclesiasticall or Politicall Assembly could ever conclude any thing for very hardly will ye finde any wherein some man doth not dissent from the rest And finally how ever one man in an Assembly dissenting from the rest might oppose the Iudgement before it be given or after the Iudgement for some scruple of Conscience which yet is not lawfull yet might he not at any hand doe it in writing of Apologies against their Iudgement much lesse before that they give out their Iudgement and for feare they judge otherwayes then he would have them judge 10. All this Answer is only against
private writings are more effectuall and sufficient to perswade the world of their innocent then the Declaration of the Parliament A.S. For me I believe and take it for certain that the publike Declaration of Parliament is more authentique then the particular writings of them that are accused yea the very Election and Admission to the Synod by the Parliament suffice to justifie the Members from any publike accusation whatsoever in matter of Doctrine and Discipline For sure so Wise and Religious a Parliament would never admit into a Synod called together for the Reformation of Religion any Heretique or Schismatique stained and deformed with Errour Notwithstanding M.S. brings Reasons for himselfe 1. For that the Parliament being indulgent chose Episcopall men To which I answer That the Bishops at that time were Morally Orthodox being not then accused or condemned by any publike Authority As to that he addes that there are some Members of the Synod ejected out of the Assembly and cast into prison I answer That this was for Delinquencies of theirs that happened after their Election But for that the Independents were not so handled they were held as Innocent men 2. M.S. sayes that two worthy Parliament men of a County may not know at first all the Faults in every Towne c. A.S. To this I answer that no more is there any necessity that they should know every particular man in a County But it suffices that they know two Ministers that are Religious and of good report and it should be very strange if they should not know such a number But besides this I shall answer more fully in a particular Question 5. Consideration whether this your Apol. Narration wherein ye blame all Protestant Churches as not having the power of godlinesse and the Profession thereof with difference from all carnall and formall Christians advanced and held forth amongst them as amongst you be seasonable when the Church of God in this Kingdome stands in need of their Brotherly Assistance and particularly of that of the Scots against whom it is commonly thought to be particularly intended who at this very time so unseasonable according to their duty hazard their lives and estates for Gods Church all this Kingdome and you also Here note that M.S. answereth not to this principall Question or interrogative Preposition viz. if this Apologeticall Narration be seasonable when the Church of God in this Kingdome stands in need of the Brotherly assistance of Protestant Churches but only biteth at the Syncategorema or adjacent terme thereof viz. not having the power of godlinesse so that his silence seemeth cleerly to grant the principall Question which we willingly accept of As for the Syncategorema it cannot receive the sense that hee puts upon it for the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers speak here of themselves as contra-distinguished or opposed to all other Reformed Churches both abroad and within this Island as appeareth by the beginning of the 2. Sect. p. 4. where they say Wee were not engaged by education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches And afterwards we could not but suppose that they could not see into all things about Worship and Government their intentions being most spent as also of our Reformers in England upon the Reformation in Doctrine And afterward And we had with many others observed that although the exercise of that Government had been accompanied with more peace yet the practicall part the power of godlinesse and the profession thereof with difference from carnall and formall Christians had not been advanced and held forth among them as in this our own Island as themselves have generally acknowledged Here they oppose themselves and those of their own profession to all other Reformed Churches whatsoever yea to the first Reformers here in this Island if England whereof they speak be in this Island It is likewise false The words of the Apologie are 1. That they and many others had but observed touching the non-advance of the power of godlinesse c. They are verbatim as I have set them down Neither cited I those words all and among you as the Quinqu-Ecclesian Ministers words since I put them in a different Character from theirs and yet the sense is most true as I have proved Neither said I that they say that other Churches had no power of godliness Neither by this phrase This our Island understand you or can they understand any Reformed Churches different in Government from themselves as this M.S. will perswade us unlesse he hold our Reformers of England to be out of this Island since they oppose themselves to all other Reformers and Reformed Churches both within and without this Island So if this speech be intended against all other Reformed Churches except their own it must be intended against that of Scotland unless ye deny good Sir that of Scotland to be a Reformed Church neither serveth it you a pin that they call them deare Brethren for that must either be by dissimulation or they conceive that men may be their deare Brethren without the force of Piety or they contradict themselves choose ye what please you Sir So this is not my ill eye as you say but your ill eye brought home to your own doore fie upon thee give glory to God and render thy selfe to truth for feare thou render thy selfe to worse It is likewise false that I said it is intended against Scotland only I said it is commonly thought to be particularly intended against the Scots which appeareth cleerly because sundry Independent Ministers and others travell to prove it by the confession of some Scots Ministers So judge I pray Christian Reader whether this man with this his power of piety or I whom he maketh so impious a Machivilian speak more like his Machiavilian I am assured what ever be thy power of Piety thou hast no practise of Piety here No truer is it that their Proposition is but Indefinite in a Contingent matter and therefore it may be construed of some Particulars only for as the rest of the Independents save ordinarily their absurd speeches with meere Possibilities so doth M.S. which here cannot hold for the Apologists say that they were not engaged by Education or any other wayes to any other of the Reformed Churches i.e. Nullo modo and Nulli Ecclesiae Reformatae so it is altogether Universall both in regard of the Subject or Matter and of the Manner and of such Churches they speake in all that Discourse in that Paragraph and it may appeare by this their proofe viz. as they themselves generally acknowledge 6. Consid Whether as it is observed by sundry men of learning and as ye have noted your selves ye should not have done better to have set down your Opinions by way of Theses and so manifested unto us wherein ye agree or disagree with us or from us the Brownists Anabaptists and those whom ye pretend to hold the same Tenets with you in Old and New England and the Netherlands then
Members thereof 4. The Parliament alloweth them not to shew their Reasons a part without imparting them first to the Assembly and that without their Consent 5. Much lesse to be Suitors for a Toleration or allowance of their Sect or if it allow them any such thing I would pray them to shew us an Ordinance for it 6. What reason that your extraordinary Sect should have more allowance then the rest of the Synod We pray you in the name of God to live as Brethren more humane as other mortall men and if ye can or dare to answer my Questions as I doe yours M.S. 5. A thousand good Christians were glad to heare how the Five Ministers dissented from the rigid Separation and closed with the best Reformed Churches A.S. Note here that M.S. saith not that the five Ministers dissented from all the Separatists but only from the rigid Separation 2. They close not with the best reformed Churches unless by the best Reformed Churches be meant the Independent Churches For he calls all our Churches in Scotland France the Netherlands and Switzerland Episcopall Churches our Presbyteries Idols that must be grinded 3. Hee and his Partie dissent not in effect from Separatists in point of Separation in generall for they separate themselves from our Discipline and Sacramentall Communion as well as they doe 4. All this answereth not my Questions I will not reply to his injuries against my Person for they touch not the Cause Neither envie I him in ill doing A.S. 8. Consid Whether ye desire a Toleration for you Five alone in your Religion or for all the rest Item If a Toleration in publick in erecting of Churches apart or to live quietly without troubling of the State As for the last appearingly yee may have it unsought but for the rest the Parliament is wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church of God and the State My Adversary finds these Questions so newhat too hot for his fingering and therefore takes it for a point of Prudence not to touch them for feare to be burnt Now then that he may not seeme to have said nothing he falls to quarrelling with me about the signification of the word Toleration and the Parliaments wisedome because I say It is wise enough c. which he calleth a Contradiction to what I say afterward M.S. Toleration saith learned Cappell is of things unlawfull A.S. Toleration or Toleratio in Latine has many significations 1. Sometimes it is taken for Patience and so it is an Act or integrant part of Fortitude as Thomas and the Schoole-men speak 2. Sometimes it signifieth a permission of things that we cannot mend Toleranda sunt quae emendari non possunt And so the Magistrate tolerateth sometimes many things against his Lawes when he cannot make men obey 3. Sometimes a permission of things indifferent that are not forbidden by Law 4. Tolerabilia Tributa in the Roman lawes are moderate Tributes Tolerabilia saith Calvin sunt quae vetus consuetudo comprobat Cal. in Lexico Juridico And we have in Tacitus tolerare vitam which is not a thing unlawfull So that Cappell if he say so appearingly he speaketh not of Toleration in the whole latitude of its signification for things indifferent may be tolerated Afterwards M.S. he sayes that he will not yeeld the one nor beg the other i. e. if I understand him yeeld that their Religion is unlawfull or beg a Toleration what then will he have an allowance and approbation will nothing content him unless we confesse that Independency is lawfull and consequently that Dependency upon Councells and Synods is unlawfull This is close home and so to content you the whole State and all the Protestant Churches needs nothing els but that without any further reason they come hither and cry peccavimus omnes The other quarrell is my pretended Contradiction in these two Propositions 1. The Parliament is wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church 2. The Civill Magistrate arrogates not to himselfe any directive power in matters of Religion 1. But tell me my good Trifler what Contradiction can there be here Is not a Contradiction an Opposition between two Propositions the one Affirmative the other Negative both singular or the one Universall the other Particular having both the same termes Now is there here the same termes viz. the same Attribute in both these Propositions are they both singular or the one Universall and the other Particular where are thy eyes where is thy judgement where is thy Logick 2. Howbeit the Parliament be wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church will it follow that the Parliament and every Civill Magistrate has a directive power whereby Intrinsecally they may rule and teach the Church which is that whereof I spake there 3. By the same reason any good Scholler who liveth a private life and knoweth what is convenient for the Church should have the like power 3. Learne they here that it is not simply wisdome or knowledge but Gods calling that can give any such power to any mortall man 4. What if the Civill Magistrate were a Papist or a Professed Atheist should his bare knowledge give him any directive power over the Church I cannot believe thee to be so absurd or wicked as to say it The rest of his Discourse here is his ordinary injuries and words of contempt against my person which I sleight and passe by as unworthy of an answer A.S. 9. Consid And because the whole draught of this Book tends evermore to a Toleration and consequently to some Separation 1. I would willingly know of you what Things are to be tolerated or not tolerated in Religion 2. Not in private persons but in Consociacions 3. And particularly when the whole Kingdome is joyned in one Religion 4. What sort of new Consociations of divers Religions it may in good Conscience tolerate and receive into it 5. Item upon what ground Churches may in good Conscience make separation from other Churches that desire union and communion with them 6. Whether they that aime at a Toleration and Separation be not rather bound to tolerate some small pretended Defects not approved by those from whom they desire to separate themselves and especially when they that are so desirous of Separation are not pressed to be Actors in any thing against their consciences then to separate themselves from a Church that testifieth a great desire to reforme the defects pretended to be in it 7. Whether it were not better for them that aime at Toleration and Separation to stay in the Church and to joyn all their endeavours with their Brethren to reforme Abuses then by their Separation to let the Church of God perish in Abuses 8. Whether they doe not better that stay in the Church to reforme it when it may be reformed then who quit it for feare to be deformed in it The Adversary to Elude these 8. Questions telleth us that they answer themselves and
of private or particular mens Iudgements The first binds and obliges them who are subject unto them the second cannot oblige any man to obedience and so I say 1. That in Questions already determined in Gods Word by his Church every man may determine as God and the Church have determined 1. Because God obliges us to determine our judgements according to the Determinations of his Word especially in things that are necessary to Salvation for the very publication of the Gospell obligeth us to assent 2. If every man determineth not according to Gods Word he sinneth 3. If particular men determine not their Iudgement according to Gods Word and because the thing beleeved is conforme to Gods Word it is not an Act of Divine Faith In these Determinations according to the Word I say that the Church Determination is publick 1. Because God hath endowed her with publick Authority to determine according to the Determination of his Word 2. Because she Iudges not by private authority as private men 3. Because Suspension from the Lords Table c. are not Acts of private but of publick Iudgement and authority This Authority of the Church is not Imperiall or Magisteriall but Ministeriall because the Ministers of the Church be nothing else but Gods Ministers or Servants and not Lords in the Church The Determinations and Iudgements of particular Persons are only particular and a Iudgement of Discretion 1. Because they proceed not from publick but from private and particular persons even when they proceed from a Minister 2. Because they have not publick authority to oblige Congregations but themselves alone 3. Their principall and intrinsecall ayme is not to be directions for others but for themselves and they doe not helpe to direct others in particular This M. S. objecteth that if A. S. determine it he anticipates upon the Assemblies Iudgement but that he must not doe so Answ I deny the Consequence 1. for the Assemblies Iudgement is publick and mine particular 2. It is already Iudged by the Church of this Kingdom that Presbyterian Discipline is not contrary to Gods Word for if it were it had never permitted it to be practised or approved in England as I have already shewed 2. To the Minor I answer That either by anticipating upon the Synods Iudgement he understandeth an anticipation by a publick Iudgement and that is impossible to me for my Iudgement is not publick but particular or by a particular Iudgement and then it is not properly an Anticipation or if he will needs have it to be so I answer that if I or any other Christian have learned any truth in Gods Word we are all bound to determine our particular Iudgements according to it Neither can the long Examination of businesses in Synods which proceedeth from Hereticks Sectaries and others their crafts malice or infirmities hinder us from determining the truths according to our particular Iudgements for if it could then whensoever any Heretick should start up and dogmatize against the first Articles of our Faith denying Gods Infinity Simplicity Perfection Eternity Immutability his Wisdome Decrees Power or Providence and his opinion were to be examined in a Synod we must begin to doubt and suspend our Iudgements as so many Pyrrhonians about all those points which already we beleeved by Faith and stand gaping for some new Determination of the Articles of our faith from Synods And so Synods should be most pernicious in making us to lose our Faith which before we had In a word we have received already the Determination and Resolution of the Independents questions in Gods Word in other Protestant Churches and the approbation of those Determinations here by the Church of England And the Discussion of them in the Synod is not to change Gods Ordinance but to give contentment unto weake Consciences if they can receive it Again If this Argument be strong I retort it against his Sect If the Quinque Ecclesian Ministers M. S. and C. C. determine these Questions as they doe in their printed Bookes here and Sermons also as we are credibly informed they also anticipate upon the Assemblies Iudgement But the First is true Ergo so must the Second also be Again Either this man with the rest of the Sectaries are minded to acquiesce to the Determination of the Synod or not If the first it is well it is more then I expect of them I pray God they deceive me if not what needeth he to sight so much for the Determination of the Synod which he is determined not to stand unto would not this seeme to be said in derifion of the Synod 2. Obj. A. S. In determining the Question taketh it out of the Assemblies hands Answ I deny the Consequence for it is in their hands by way of publick Authority publicke Iudgement and publicke Determination Now A. S. or any other particular Determination taketh not away the publick and Authoritative Determination Iudgement or Authority As for the stating of the Question this man will not permit me and consequently no particular man so much as to state it in particular and that for the same reason But if we may according to our particular Iudgement Determine it how much more may we state it since it can no waiess be Determined unlesse first it be stated Can the Synods stating and Determining the question free us of the obligation whereby we are bound to state it and Determine it according to Gods Word QUEST 4. Whether the Quinqu ' Ecclesian Ministers publish this their Apologeticall Narration seasonably yea or not against M. S. p. 24 25. c. that affirmes it I Maintaine the Negative part of the Question his Reasons are 1. Because before the publication thereof the Calumnies mistakes misapprehensions of their Opinions and many of those mists that were gathered about them or rather cast upon their Persons in their absence began by their presence againe and the blessing of God upon them in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for themselves and cause as the five Ministers say in their Apologeticall Narration M. S. p. 24. of his Booke Answereth 1. That that scattering of mists doth but relate to the people and onely to some of them viz. Those that professe or pretend the power of godlinesse as appeareth by the precedent period A. S. Reply 1. The precedent period hath no relation to this for it endeth with a full point 2. It is not the precedent period that should interpret the subsequent but rather the subsequent that should serve for interpretation to the precedent unlesse yee put the Explication before the Text. 3. Because it is said absolutely 4. They themselves beleeve now at this present that this relateth to others as yee may see p. 15. where they speak of those who incited the State not to allow them a peaceable practise of their Conscience and of some others who did write Bookes against them whom they accuse also of mis-apprehensions and mistakes
Because in all other Synods in our Times Divines proceeded evermore in a Didactick way 5. Because this their proceeding keepeth us in perpetuall perplexity so as we can never come to know their Opinions and what ever we can say we can never bring them to any Declaration of their Opinions but that they have ever-more some Evasions and complaints of great mistakes in us whereof if any such be they are the cause themselves the which sort of dealing is not worthy of the man of God but proper unto Hereticks and Schismaticks no waies desirous of the Truth but of strife and contention 6. Because in it there is much fraud in relating a part only of their story and Opinions and not the whole in hiding the black side of the Cloud yea it conteyneth some manifest untruths in their Relation and that even where God and man are called to witnesse All which a very learned and Godly Divine maketh appeare in his Anrapologia and offers to shew under the hands of the Independents yea and of some of the Quinqu ' Ecclesian Ministers themselves QUEST 6. Whether the Independents or Quinqu ' Ecclesian Ministers come neare to Anabaptists and Anabaptists to them C. C. and M. S. deny it By Anabaptists I understand not all sort of Anabaptists as those that be also Arminians and Socinians but those who differ from them only in delaying and reiterating of Baptisme as the word it selfe implyeth who are very many in number and make up the greatest Sect amongst them here in London and in other parts of England for this Proposition is Indefinite and in a contingent matter which is taken by Philosophers to be equipollent to a particular one and so I cut off the Objection of C.C. who bringeth me an instance from them who are Arminians and Socinians of whom I propound not the Question And the Question being stated I maintain the Affirmative part 1. because they differ only in this one point neither can any of these two Divines viz. M. S. or C. C. shew me any further difference 2. Because these Anabaptists themselves of whom I speake deny it not but avow it constantly 3. If it were otherwise the Independents would not so highly commend them for Holy men as they doe in their Sermons as I shall make it appeare by good and sufficient Witnesses Auditors of their Sermons to any man that desireth to be further informed or to whosoever will call it in question 4. Because however they were oftentimes desired to joyne with the Presbyterians to condemne them they would never doe it 5. M. S. in answering my sixt Consideration where I accuse them of that seemeth by his silence to cry guilty yea C. C. seemeth to acknowledge it p. 10. § 3. of his Booke when he saith That some London Anabaptists hold Universall Redemption and that with a doubting Adverb if information may be beleeved Ergo he supposeth that some of them here about London beleeve it not He Objecteth that some Anabaptists here doe question and scruple the lawfull Warre of the Parliament which the Independents doe not Answ This is not Questio juris but facti 2. Not of any point of Doctrine in generall but of this particular Warre which some here yea of the same Doctrine with you and us also scruple at 3. Because sundry Independents have scrupled at the Covenant from whence may be inferred that they scrupled at the lawfulnesse of this warre grounded upon the Covenant and neverthelesse yee owne them for yours 4. Because you say that some only scrupled But some neither scrupled at it nor beleeved the Universality of Redemption who are more in number and Authority Ergo At least this great number of Anabaptists differ very little from you since they differ from you in this only point And so I have done you no wrong Neither say I as you untruely will make the world beleeve that yee are Anabaptists but that yee come very neare up to them As for that Question which he propounds whether every one that scruples at the Baptizing of his Childe be to be Excommunicated out of a Presbyterian Church or to be accounted solely for that Opinion unregenerate and in state of Damnation Answ This Question is not to the purpose and yet to give some contentment to this Scruple if he can receive it I Answer 1. That here is Fallaciae plurium Interrogationum whereby he propounds many Questions as one to the end that giving but one Answer he may intangle me by his sophistications and therefore I answer to every one a part 1. To the first that the Anabaptists whose cause he pleadeth scruple not but define it as certaine 2. If after sufficient conviction and their scruple abundantly satisfied they remain pertinacious and will not be baptised amongst us it is no more a reall but a pretended scruple accompanied with a reall pertinacious breach of charity and a Schisme which meriteth the sentence of Excommunication To the 2. it is not to us to judge absolutely that he is not regenerate or that he shall be damned but well thus that the way wherein he is qua talis is not the way of Regeneration or of Salvation but of damnation according to the ordinary course of the Gospell so long as he continueth unpenitent and so contemneth the Church of God instructing him according to Gods Word And that if he be a visible subject or Citizen in Gods Church which is his Kingdom and City he must be subject unto the Lawes and Government thereof otherwise be gone to some other QUEST 7. Whether the whole Church and every member thereof hath the power of the Keyes or full Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction LEast as blind men we should quarrell one with another not knowing upon what grounds or wherefore it will not be amisse that we expound the termes of the Question then state it and afterwards we shall easily perceive what is the force of our Reasons and those of our Brethren and of the two which be the weightiest and beare downe the scale As for the termes As in all others so in this Question there be two 1. the Subject and that is the whole Church and every member thereof 2. the Predicate or Attribute and that is power of the Keyes or Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction As for the word Church or Ecclesia I take it 1. generally for any Assembly or company of men or Angels evocated or convocated together 2. More strictly for any Company of men any waies gathered together upon whatsoever occasion or for whatsoever end Act 19.39 3. for a holy company of men and Angels so it is taken by Divines and it may be defined a Company of Angels and men called out of their naturall estate by convenient meanes to supernaturall felicity The words Men and Angels expresse the materiall part of the Church viz. intellectuall Creatures which are only capable of calling and of supernaturall Glory whereunto they are called The words following declare the forme of
the Church By their naturall estate or condition I understand either their estate of integrity as that of the good Angels who continued in their Originall purity and of the wicked who afterwards apostatized and of Adam Eve before their fall or of corruption such as is that of all mankind after our first sin By the word called here must be understood the act of vacation by Gods word either internall speaking unto Angels or mens Consciences by the light of nature or supernaturall Inspirations 1 Cor. 1.9 1 Pet. 5.10 1 Thes 2.12 and 4.7 or externall such as is the vocall and written word of God or any other externall signe presented to our outward Senses by him as 1 Jo. 1.3 2 Thes 2.4 Heb. 1.1 And therefore the Elect before they be borne and called are not properly or actually but meerly potentially and vertually members of the Church 1. For how can he be a member of the Church who is not yet in Rerum natura 2. By the same reason the Church should have been actually before the Creation of the world and before she was created from all eternity for God elected his Church from all eternity 3. Men of age should be actually members of Christs Church without Faith for they have not actually Faith by Election but by their efficacious Vocation 4. And howsoever the Decree of Predestination or Election be requisite and be the first cause of the Church and of all the members thereof and it being put all the second Causes must needs be yet makes it not them to be when it is its self but in their own time and in due season when it is put in execution by some externall act of Gods Almighties power which can not be eternal as his Decree but temporal 5. Because Gods Church is an House a Family and a City which can not be built of stones that are not or composed of Domesticks and Citizens that are not in this world 6. A man cannot be the Brother of Christ and member of his church before he be regenerate or born againe how much lesse before he be generated or born unlesse ye will say that he may have his second birth or generation before he have the first Out of this naturall estate c. here is expressed Terminus a quo et ad quem from whence and whereunto the Church or the members thereof are called Terminus a quo or from whence is from the estate of Nature pure and incorrupt not incorruptible as was that of the Angels and of man before his Fall or of corrupt nature such as hath been that of mankinde since their Fal. Terminus ad quem or whereunto they are called or which can intend is Grace in this life and supernaturall Glory in that to come By supernaturall Glory must be understood supernaturall Beatitude or felicity which is the last aym their summum bonum or greatest good and perfection whereunto they tend or which they can intend And this in respect of entire and pure or immaculate Nature is absolutely called Beatitude or Felicity but in regard of corrupt Nature Salvation for it is not a man without sin as Christ or Angels that never sinned but Adam his posterity that are said to be saved from their sins and misery whereunto by sin they are subject Means are called convenient when they are fit to effect that which by them is intended such in respect of Angels was the Law of Nature printed in their Understanding answerable to their spirituall Nature some Supernatural Precepts also for they were bound to beleeve the Trinitie answerable in Adam before his Fall was the Law and such respect to the spirituall and corporall nature whereof he was compounded as the Morall Law and some supernaturall Precepts to beleeve the Trinity c. proportionate to the end and aym viz. supernaturall glory whereunto he should tend and which he should intend And in regard of all mankind since our Fall is the Covenant of Grace and the means to fulfill it as Faith Hope and Charity The Church in this vast and large signification contains 1. in it self the company of Angels 1. because the Scripture sayes so Heb. 12.22 23. 1 Pet. 1.12 2. because they are our Fellow-servants and our Brethren Apoc. 19.10 and 22.9 they belong to one society with us 3. because the Angels are our Con-disciples in studying the Gospel with us 1 Pet. 1.12 4. Because they are Subjects with us of one Celestiall Republike and Citizens of one Celestiall City 5. Because we aspire to the same Beatitude and Felicity with them viz. to the vision of Gods face and ardent Charity 6. Because in respect of our spirituall part and the Faculties thereof our Intellect and Will we are capable of the same union with God 7. Because Christ is head of the Angels as well as of Men Col. 2.19 Eph. 4.15.8 Because he is their Creator Conservator Mediator God gathered in one all things in Christ both which are in Heaven and which are in Earth and every thing in them Eph. 1.10.9 Because the Angels adore Christ Hebr. 1.6.10 Because all things yea the Angels are subject to Christ Hebr. 1.7 2. It contains men in Heaven and in Earth for the Church in Earth and in Heaven differ onely as a man travelling and one arrived to his Port or home All these that are or shall be saved those that are already born and to be born regenerate or to be regenerate howsoever they that are not yet born or regenerate be not actually members of the Church till they be born and regenerated This Church in regard of its materiall parts integrity and quantity may be distinguished 1. into the Catholike or universall and particular Church The Catholike Church is that which before we defined composed of all the Elect Angels and Men. 2. Again it is to be observed in passing of this Word Catholike Church that it is not a term of Scripture nor was any man called a Catholike in the Apostles time if we beleeve Pacianus epist 1. Ad Sempronianum neither in their time was the Christian Faith spread Catholikely or Universally through all the World and hence many Protestants infer that the Creed I mean that of the Apostles was not framed by them Neverthelesse we have some terms in Scripture equivalent unto it as that of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Heb 12.23 that signifies a generall Assembly Item the City of the living God the Heavenly Jerusalem ver 22. the Church of the first-born which are written in Heaven c. The Church then is called Vniversall 1. in respect of her Intrinsecall and Essentiall form viz. internall vertues viz. Faith Hope Charity and the Spirit of Christ which be all and the same in all the members thereof for howsoever the Church in respect of some Gifts otherwayes called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and by the Schoolmen gratia gratis data is distributed by Christ unto some of her members not so much for
their own as for other mens use and salvation to be a corpus heterogeneum dissimilare an Organicall Body composed of divers parts of different names and natures one from another and from the whole Body having different functions and operations as of prophecy government of Miracles c. as a man of his head legs and arms whereof the one is not of like nature or like name with an other or with the man for the leg is not the head nor a man as the Apostle declares neverthelesse in regard of her spirituall and saving gifts as Faith Hope Charity c. wherein consists her intrinsecall form conferred upon the Elect for their own use otherwayes called by Schoolmen gratia gratum faciens Grace that makes us acceptable to God it is totum homogeneum or similare a similary Body Composed of the like parts whereof every one hath the same name and nature one with another and with the whole Body for all the members of Christ have the like Faith inclining to the like Acts of Beleef the same Mysteries and a like Charity inclining to the like Acts of love to all men and especially to the Houshold of Faith So every particular Church is a Church one as another and as the universall Church I speak here of the redeemed Church for the Church of Angels and of men before their Fall be not parts homogeneall with the redeemed Church because of their dissimulary Covenant and intrinsecall formes and vertues Item the Church may be denominated universall in regard of her extrinsecall and accidentall forme consisting 1. in the externall profession of her intrinsecall Christian vertues by confession of her Faith Hope and exercise of Charity and holinesse of life 2. In her participation of the holy Sacraments according to Gods Word 3. In her extrinsecall sound Discipline and Government which should be in every Church Againe the Church may be universall in respect of some Circumstances viz. of time place persons and Ages 1. of time because the Christian Church from her first institution by Christ till the end of the world shall never decay 2. of place not positively as if it were in all places but negatively because it is not excluded from any place as that of the old Testament limited within the confines of the Holy Land but spread through all the world Psal 19.5 Mat. 26.13 Col. 1.6.3 of Persons of all Ages Sects and Conditions for no man is excluded from the Gospell neither Iew nor Greeke neither Servant nor Freeman neither Male nor Female Gal. 3.28 2. And it may be distinguished according to her materiall or integrant parts into the Church of Angels and of men But the Scripture has very little of that of the Angels so as we may let it passe 3. That of men may be distinguished according to the state and condition thereof into that which is Militant here on earth fighting against Sathan and Triumphant and victorious in Heaven reigning eternally with God 4. The Militant according to the state thereof and Covenant is distinguished into that which was before the Fall that after the Fall The Church before the Fall was composed of Adam and Eve alone and governed by the Law of Nature and some supernaturall Precepts and called to supernaturall felicity I say composed of Adam and Eve alone viz. actually for howsoever before the creation of Eve God or Christ was his head yet could he not be his Head as of a Church 1. For a Church is a company not of the Head and one member but of the Head and many members Rom. 12.5 Eph. 1.22 23.2 Because before the Creation of the Woman there was no symbolicall Law nor Sacraments of the Covenant ordained by God as the Tree of Life 3. Because the Church is a Family a City a Kingdome which cannot consist of one member Col. 1.13 Rom. 14.17 1 Tim. 3.15 Apo. 21.2 Matth. 13.11 Item a body composed of sundry members 1 Cor. 12. a flocke 1 Pet. 5.2 which is not composed of one sheep yea after the Creation of Eve it was not a perfect or compleat Church but in fieri tending to perfection by the propagation of mankind and perfected in its fieri when it was breeding for to a perfect Church is requisite a Ruler or Rulers and some to be ruled and not one alone 2. Because the Church is a Society like to that of a Kingdom or a City which can not consist of two persons only 3. Because howsoever three may compound a Colledge yet can they not make up an Ecclesiasticall or politicall Society 4. Because in a Church there must be power of Excommunication which cannot subsist in two for if the one should Excommunicate the other the Church should perish which is repugnant to the nature of Excommunication which is not given to the destruction but to the conservation of the Church 1 Cor. 5. 5. Because it was imperfect in its ayme in respect of man for it brought no man to felicity or glory 6. Because to every Reall Church correspond some Representative Church which is a sign of the Reall and not altogether the same but there could be no representative Church before the Fall correspondent to it different from it selfe because these were but two persons not differing from themselves notwithstanding it might have been represented by an Ambassadour but not by a Church The Militant Church after the fall is that which is redeemed by Christ called in him to the forgivenesse of their sins and eternall Glory 5. This in regard of time and state is either before Christ as that of the Old Testament wherein Christ was obscurely revealed or of the New since his comming wherein he is more cleerly revealed which for this cause is called the Christian Church partly because it is since Christ partly because Christ is more visibly revealed unto her partly because he in Person revealed himselfe and his Gospel for the Law was given by Moses but Grace was given by Iesus Christ Iohn 1. The particular Church is only a part of the Universall or totall Church And as the universall is universall 1. In regard of Time which comprehends all the Churches of all times 2. Of place which comprehends the Churches of all places or through all the world 3. Or of Persons which comprehends all forts of persons so the particular is either 1. in regard of time which only comprehends in its selfe the Churches of a certaine time as that of the Old Testament which was before the comming of Christ in the flesh and that of the New which is since his comming So we call the Church Primitive that which was before our times immediatly after Christ his comming and some time after 2. Or in regard of places as when we say that a Church is Nationall which is in one Kingdome or Republick Provinciall that is in one Province and Parochiall which is confined within the limits of one Parish 3. Or in regard of Persons which
But they permit not every man to discourse as was ordained by the old fashion of Rome whereby every one of the Senators had power to tell out his opinion by word of mouth Senatoribus quibusque in Senatu sententiā dicere jus esto Aulus Gellius lib. 3. cap. 8. Neither to give their voice in writing because of the weaknesse of their memories and to avoid all dispute and contention which falls out in discourse which they call deliberare ex libello ex pugillaribus but holding their peace and assenting to two three or foure of the wisest who discusse it in the beginning which the Romans called per Discessionem and therefore they were called Agipedes by Lucilius because they went on foot towards one of them whose Judgement they followed The French call it opiner en Bonnet because in assenting they only take off their Bonnet Sometimes they say nothing but Idem or Et moy or de mesme or as the old Romans did by little stones writing on them C.A. or N. to signifie Condemned Absolved or Nonliquet I know not such almost as the French use in some Cases and in some places Par Balotes Buletins en l'Election des Officiers Beneficiers by Bills or Tickets in the Election of Officers and Incumbents or beneficed men So did the Areopagites and now the Venetians or per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or the stretching out of their hand as the Athenians did and sometimes the Romans A. 1. I approve the Answer in not permitting all to speak for many of them cānot speak to the purpose nor by writing for many of them cānot write at all If the third way be used then you must choose a certain number to speak whose voyces must be followed and 1. that is no lesse to tie them to an implicite Faith then a Consistorie does 2. It is to diminish their power in speaking for their tongues are their own 3. It is to contemne them and judge that some have more authority then others 4. What if some of the people be of an other judgement then any of the rest how shall they discover it The Suffrages cannot be given by little stones or Ballots for Writing cannot be used because many of the people cannot write and yet all this would take up much time and if there should fall in many incidents there should never be an end No more that external Signe in stretching out the hand or touching the Bonnet for so great a multitude should breed confusion and besides that howbeit it might be usefull in a Simple Affirmation or Negation yet in a great diversity of judgements it cannot hold 11. Besides this the Discipline of the Church may be exercised in all times yea in times of Persecution as in the Primative Church But this Democraticall sort of Discipline cannot be exercised in all times and specially in time of Persecution which is most ordinary to the Militant Church for if all the People should so meet together it could not be without great danger under an Antichristian Prince and principally in consulting about her own conservation her Counsell might easily be discovered and the Church of God betrayed by some mens wickednesse and others folly and imprudence whereas 10. or 12. or 50. of the most wise and prudent may easily meet together without any eminent danger 12. If a Congregation were great as of 20000. or 30000. there could not be found a commodious Place to containe them and this I say by experience for being at one of their Conferences there were so many that we were like to be smothered And there happened such a confusion such partiality and jangling by reason of the pretended equality that we could reap no profit thereby 13. Againe I pray Is it fit that for all particular businesses peradventure some of them very idle and of small importance that such a great Congregation should be gathered together and taken away from their Callings or that every particular fault should be made known to every particular man in the Congregation Should all the particularities or circumstances of most wicked and vile crimes be examined discussed and voyced by so many of the people what should that be but to teach them most execrable sinnes whereof they had never heard before for it is certain that many sins are learned in hearing them God forbid that in the Christian Church wherein any Uncleannesse should not be once named Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth Eph. 4.29 Let not uncleannesse be once named amongst you Eph. 5.4 Neither filthinesse ver 4. Children in their tender age should heare of such odious Sinnes from which their very nature abhorres And that young people before they know well what is vertue should heare all sort of vice That were worse then the Jesuits Auricular Confession and abominable Cases of Conscience In reading or hearing whereof the Conscience is either offended or infected It may be answered that it is not needfull to admit them in these Assemblies Reply But the Assembly say they is open to all to the end that all may learne how to exercise the power of Ecclesiasticall government If it be open to all how shall they be kept out If to the end all may learne how shall they obtain this end if they be kept out It may yet be answered that there is no lesse publication of odious Sinnes in white sheets at the Pillar of Repentance in Scotland A. That paine is only inflicted on some sins 2. Neither are the particularities or circumstances of the sins declared which should be scandalous 3. Only the pain is published in generall but the particularities that may give offence are concealed 14. In no Societie neither in the Government of a Familie nor of Schooles or Academies nor in Kingdoms or Armies is it permitted to every man promiscuously without distinction to judge and vote but only to the Overseers in their Societies Wherefore then should that be permitted yea ordained in the Church of God which is Gods house Christs Schoole Shall there be no place for foolish and impertinent fellowes to judge in but only in Gods house and Kingdome the holy City and his Kingdome For what inconvenience and Absurdities presses the one the same followes on the other This Argument so proposed ab Exemplo must hold because of the paritie of Reason in both It may be proposed in Forme of Syllogisme thus There is no Societie ruled by Law wherein every man exercises the power of Judge The Church of God is a Societie ruled by Law E. In the Church of God every man cannot exercise the power of Judge The Minor will be granted The Major may be proved by Induction for so is it not in Academies Armies Republicks Kingdomes c. E. It may be excepted that it is not so in the Church But it is unreasonable after a perfect Induction and Enumeration of all other Societies that you should except only against that which is in
a Deacon But the Consequence is false as is granted by all neither can every one of the People assist and give their voyce touching every Almes that must be given to the Poore yea it were very dangerous that every Poore man should Iudge for then all the Poore should Iudge one for another and hunt after the Deaconship that they might keep the purse or give their advise upon every point of Doctrine taught or to be taught nor should they then need to learne at the Sermons And before the Pastor should teach the People they must consult whether his Doctrine be sound or not As in governing we consult whether this or that is to be done censured or not censured 29. If every man hath power to rule we need no Ruling Elders for every member of the Church is a Ruling Elder since he may exercise Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction as the Ruling Elders doe But they hold the Consequent to be false Ergo. They may answer that Elders are needfull to debate things before they be propounded to the People But that is only the duty of a Committee and lesse then to Iudge and he who may have a deliberative and decisive voyce may debate the matter yea the matter being debated by the Elders may be debated again amongst the People so that their Debate should besuperfluous 30. Here to confirme this we may bring in all those passages of Scriptur which our Brethren bring against it as Christs Command Mat. 18. c. 1 Cor. 5. and 2 Cor. 2. They only have Iurisdiction and power of Excommunication in Christs Church whom St. Paul in those passages commands to cast out from amongst them and to admit the Incestuous person But not every one of the promiscuous multitude but those only that are of the Representative Body of the Church those only whom St. Paul commanded to cast out from amongst them and to admit the Incestious person Er. The first Proposition is granted by our Brethren the second is certain for that which is in the Text cannot appertaine to every one of the people This is written to all the Church of Corinth which was very great and consequently could not meete together as it is commanded verse 4. neither could every one of them deliver him to Sathan as it is commanded 5. neither can it be shewed from the Text that this is only said to growen men that have the use of Reason that doate not to the exclusion onely of Children of those that doate that want altogether or in part the use of Reason and of women Neither could every one comfort him forgive him c. as it is commanded 2 Cor. 2.7 and 15. Chapter For further proofe hereof we shall by and by bring the rest of the passages that they alleadge for evidence against them CAP. 2. Where the Independants Opinions are refuted THey object 1. some Passages of Scripture to prove that the Exercise of Iurisdiction belongeth to all the People promiscuously as Mat. 18.17 Tell the Chnrch all i. e. the People Acts 1. where the People did choose Matthias to the Apostleship Acts 6. where Deacons are chosen by the people Acts 14.23 where Priests or Elders are said to be chosen of the People i.e. by the Peoples suffrages signified by the stretching out of their hands Acts 15. in the difference about the Observation of the Ceremoniall Law 1 Cor. 5. and 2. Cor. 2. where the Incestuous person is excommunicated by the People and admitted againe to the Communion by the same People To all these I answer in order and 1. To that of Mat. 18.17 Tel the Church Ergo all the People I deny this Consequence for our Brethren themselves at least one great or the greatest part of them denies that we should delate every Offender to all the People as 1 to women 2. to children 3. To distracted Persons howsoever they be members of the Church 2. Neither can they produce any Passage of Scripture where the word Church is taken in this signification viz. for the collective Body of the Church to the exclusion of the greatest part therof viz. all women children distracted persons and vicious men or notorious sinners But of this we have said enough before To the second Passage Act. 1.15.1 Put the case that the word Disciples signifie the promiscuous multitude yet 2. I answer that it is not there said that every one of them gave their voyce but only that Peter stood up in the midst of the Disciples the number whereof was about 120.3 If every one of them voyced Ergo the women and Mary who are named v. 14. voyced also which is contrary to St. Pauls command that women are to keep silence in the Church 4. Only therefore those did voyce that had power to voyce viz. Church-Officers and not every one of the promiscuous multitude for the Reasons already alleadged And it may be confirmed 5. because it was not in the Peoples power to choose or not to choose an Apostle for he shewes from Psal 9. that another man must take his Bishopricke v. 20. Item he binds them in another point that some must be chosen of those men which had accompanied with the Apostles all the time that the Lord Iesus went in and out among them beginning from the Baptisme of Iohn unto the day he was taken up from amongst them Obj. But wherefore then sayes Peter v. 22. One must be ordained Answ To shew them that necessitate Praecepti of Gods command or rather to accomplish this Prophesie Psal 9. some man must be put in Iudas his place but hence it followes not that he was to be chosen by the People Obj. But wherefore then sayes the Text that the People appointed two viz. Barnabas and Matthias Answ The Text saies not that the People but that they viz. the Apostles and other Church-Officers peradventure they that accompanied with them at the time that the Lord Iesus went in and out amongst them 2. Besides this it is not for us to answer all these Questions or wherefore the Holy Ghost speakes so or so It suffices us to beleeve that which is spoken These things are written and said to the end that we should beleeve them It is our Brethrens part to prove from the Text that which they say otherwise we neither can nor will beleeve them 6. To give them more satisfaction and to answer sundry other Questions that may be proposed we distinguish in the Creation of a Minister two things 1. His Vocation to the Charge 2. His Admission unto the actuall Exercise thereof The 1. containes 1. the examen of his Life 2. the examen of his Doctrine 3. the act of Ordination or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 As for the first of these three it may be done by the Pastors and Ruling Elders by power of Iurisdiction and by the People by way of Accusation in declaring to the Assembly of Pastors and other Church-Officers what impediments they finde if so be that the Person that
is to be created Pastor be of a vicious and scandalous life The second belongs not to every one of the People but only to Church-Officers who are presumed capable to judge of Doctrine and of his ability for the Ministery Now whether this belongs to Pastors alone or to the Ruling Elders also I will not dispute only they say that they only can examine his Doctrine that have the capacity to judge of it To these two may be referred the voycing of his probitie and capacity for his Doctrine which belongs to the Pastors and Elders or to the Representative Church for howsoever the People may assist at the Action to accuse the person that is to be received of ill life or false doctrine or of ignorance yet for the Reasons above proposed they are not to be accepted in voycing either of his life or Doctrine but that belonging to the Pastors alone 1 Tim. 3.15 and chap. 5. v. 11 22. The third viz. the right of Ordination or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 seemes only to belong to the Pastors neither doe our Brethren deny it and it may be proved from 1. Tim. 3.14 Tit. 1.5 As for the Admission or Acceptation of a Minister into a particular Church it belongs to the people or to the whole Congregation for as a Husband is not to be urged upon a woman against her will but it being not Concubitus consensus qui facit matrimonium no more is a Pastor upon a particular Church and howsoever he may goe to the Pulpit and preach among them yet unlesse they consent he is not their Minister Now to apply this to the present Passage I say that the examen of life and Doctrine in this Election of Matthias belonged to the Apostles and other Church Officers whereunto might be admitted such of the People as had the capacity so did the Deliberative and the Decisive voycing as likewise the power of Ordination belonged to the Church-Officers alone And yet the People were there 1. to propound if they knew any impediment against his Vocation 2. to know that he was chosen 3. to admit him as a Minister of the Universall Militant Church upon Earth and in this they might voyce 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. by giving their consent in stretching out their hands Neither can they or any man living draw any more from this Text But note here that the Vocation of a Minister Essentially and Formally consists in the Decisive voycing and in his Ordination The examen of his life and Doctrine are only Antecedents and the Admission of the people only Consequents of the Vocation and so Accidentally it belongs to the People but Essentially to Church-Officers only But what if the Congregation will not admit the Minister that is ordained A. I answer 1. That the Representative Church should not ordaine a Minister till they be assured of some Flock or Congregation that will admit him for their Minister 2. That if after they have promised to admit him they admit him not they doe wrong to the Church He is their true Pastor and they are to be commanded to admit him even as a woman that hath lawfully consented to marriage by her contracting of her selfe to such a man 3. If they will not obey neverthelesse he is a Minister yea their Minister and hath power to teach though he cannot exercise it for want of a Flock But it concernes the Church to provide him of some Flock 7. Others answer that the People may have a hand in the Election of their Church-Officers in Ecclesia constituenda such as this was but not in constituta The Passage which our Brethren bring out of Acts 6.2 3. and 5 6. prove not That every one of the people had power of Iurisdiction and of the voycing in the Election of the seven Deacons to the exclusion of children yong men men of weak Iudgement notorious Sinners and women for the Text hath no such thing in it 2. It may be doubted whether the multitude of the Disciples v. 2 3. signifie the promiscuous multitude or the multitude of the seventy Disciples chosen by Christ 3. But suppose it signifie generally Christs Disciples and not precisely those seventy yet it is not said that they created or ordained the Elders 4. The contrary may be concluded from the v. 4 5. Then the Twelve called the multitude of the Disciples unto them and said Looke yee among you seven men of honest report full of the Holy Ghost and wisedome whom we may appoint over this Businesse where yee see that the Apostles appointed their Deacons and not the People only the People sought out those seven men as knowing better what kind of men were among them then the Apostles And they presented them to the Apostles to be examined in their lives and Doctrine before the Church-Officers and to be ordained by them So that the Apostles 1. ordained the Office 2. commanded the People to seeke out honest Men. 3. examined them 4. and appointed or ordained them The people only had the power to inquire of their lives and to admit or approve them by their consent and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v. 5. After that They were ordained by the Church-Officers that were present in the whole Action and had seen all things passed without partiality as I have above declared 5. If the People had had any voyce here which cannot be collected out of this Text yet it should only follow that they had this power in Ecclesiâ constituendâ but not in constitutâ i. e. in the first Institution of Churches or Church-Officers but not in a Church already established and furnished with all her ordinary Church-Officers say others The Place Acts 14. verse 22. whereon they insist so much hath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and when they had ordained them Elders in every Church Here they conceive that the word signifies to create Ministers by Suffrages of the People who had voyce in the creating of Elders A. To this some answer and that very probably that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hath three divers significations 1. that it signifies the same that the latin word suffragari or porrectis manibus suffiagia ferre to give their approbation by lifting up or stretching out their Hands 2. to choose in any fashion whatsomever Acts 10. verse 41.3 for the imposition of Hands commonly called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and so it is taken in some of the Fathers Writings so they say that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 here may be taken either in the second or third signification and that it cannot be proved from the Text that it is taken in the first But they take that for granted which they are not able to prove 2. Put the case it signifie here to ordaine by the Consent of the Peopte yet followes it not that this Consent of the People was a Voyce because it was not asked of every man a part neither hath the Text that nor can it be
written to all Yet was it not written to all in the same fashion but to every one according to his Vocation as the Kings Edicts viz. To some meerly to be obeyed by them To others that have Jurisdiction as to inferiour Judicatories to obey them and to cause them to be obeyed by others Ob. They prove it from this Chapter v. 3. because S. Paul and Barnabas being come back from Jerusalem to Antioch they gathered the multitude and delivered the Epistle written from the Apostles c. A. I answer 1. That the text sayes not that they delivered the Epistle to the Multitude but when they had gathered the Multitude they delivered the Epist Ob. But it is said v. 31. when the Multitude had read the Epistle they rejoyced A. I answer it is not said that the Multitude had read the Epistle but that the Apostles delivered it which when they had read This they may signifie some other then the Multitude 1. Because it is not the custome in any Assembly that all the Multitude read Epistles 2. Neither is it possible without very great confusion Ob. But how could the People then rejoyce for the consolation A. 1. Because the Letter was read in their presence by the Church-Officers A. 2. But put the case that the Letter was read by the People it could not be till after it had been read in the Representative Church or by the Elders and after that it had been published A. 3. Howbeit it had been received and read by the People or to the People yet was not that an Act of Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction but of obedience of an inferiour Ecclesiasticall Judicatorie to a Superiour A. 4. It might have been read to all the People yea to Children and women that were to obey And yet it follows not presently that they had Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction A. 5. It might have been read to all or by all Tanque subjecto Denominationis Et ut quod But not tanquam subjecto ut quo as when the whole Kingdome is that which is named rich or potent howbeit their Riches and Power be not in every man but in a few So a man is said to be judged by the Kingdome who is only judged by the Kings Counsell or by the Parliament or Representative Kingdome and neverthelesse what the Parliament does is said to be done by the Reall Kingdome or it may belong to the whole Body but not wholly but to every part according to the exigence thereof Ob. They say that 1 Cor. 5. and 2 Cor. 2. The Apostle commands all the People to Excommunicate the incestuous man when they were gathered together and after his repentance to receive him to the peace of the Church againe A. We deny that the Apostle gives any such Power to the People or promiscuous multitude by that passage but only to Church-Officers that represents the Church Inst But they prove it on this manner They among whom the Fornicator was that were puffed up when they should have sorrowed and from out of the midst of whom he was to be put who had done that thing Item They who had to purge out the old leaven that were not to company with Fornicators Covetous men Drunkards c. received Power to judge and to Excommunicate that incestuous man But the Fornicator was not amongst the Elders alone neither were they alone puffed up c. E. He was not to be judged by them alone but by the Church with them though governed by them A. 1. This Argument failes mightily in forme 1. Because it containes two or three Conclusions viz. 1. He was not to be judged by them alone 2. Hee was to be judged by the Church with them 3. He was to be judged by the Church governed by them 2. This Syllogisme is either Categoricall and so failes because of the Assumption Negative in the first Figure or Conditionall because of the Major Relative and so it failes because it destroyes the Antecedent in the Assumption A. 2. It failes in Matter For the first Proposition being taken Universally is false because the Fornicator was among Women and Youths c. who were puffed up c. and yet our Brethren grant that they had not power to Voyce or to Excommunicate 2. Because 2. Cor. 2. v. 6. This punishment is said to be inflicted by many and not by all for many are opposite to all as ye may see in Arist. 1. Top. c. 1. sect 7. 3. Because in the Text there is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Beza observes which is more then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as others observes it is only the greater part in number as in that passage of Arist 1 Top. 1. sect 7. but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as those that are greater in dignitie which are but few viz. the Church-Officers that rule the Church as Beza observes upon this place A. 3. That howbeit this be said and written to them all Yet is it not said to them all alwayes but according as they were capable to obey Now some were capable to obey by Judiciall Power as the Representative Church in Excommunicating him and so binding themselves and others by Authority to quit his company Others only as private Persons or Christians in obeying the Sentence of the Representative Church And so this was said and commanded to private Christians But they Reply As it was not enjoyn'd the Levites and Elders alone in Israel to purge out of their Houses the materiall Leaven but it belonged to the People also so is it in the Spirituall Leaven A. This we grant that it was the duty of every Israelite by obedience as he was a Private person to put away the Materiall Leaven out of his own house And so it is every private Christians duty to put away the Spirituall Leaven But neither among the Israelites had every private or particular man a publick Authority and Jurisdiction to put it away out of his own and all other Houses nor among Christians to put away Spirituall Leaven Every particular man in his own house may command but not in another mans without publick Authority They bring another Text. 1. Tim. 5.20 Those who sin rebuke publikely that others also may feare But what inferre ye from hence E. Every one of the People have Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction to rebuke publickly A. Wee deny the Consequence 1. For this is said to Timothy who was a Pastor and an Evangelist and not to every one of the People 2. Because every one of the People hath not the gift to robuke publikely at least pertinently or 3. If some of them meddle with this charge I thinke they will deserve more to be rebuked themselves then he who is rebuked by them 4. If this belong to every one of the People E. That which is said Cap. 4. v. 11. These things command and teach v. 12. Let no man despise thy youth v. 14. Neglect not the
gift that is in thee which was given thee by Prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery Item That which is said c. 5. v. 21.22 About laying on of hands and drinking of wine But all this should be ridiculous and superfluous The truth is that here as in other Epistles many Duties are commanded but not all to all but some to Publick persons as to Pastours to Church-Rulers Some to particular Persons And others are common to all And this here is commanded to Timothy a Pastour and in his name to all other Pastours as the same common Dutie of them all After Scripture they bring Reason but against both Scripture and Reason 1. VVhat concerneth all ought to be done by the consent of all But the Government of the Church concernes all E. A. If by the word Consent bee here meant Formall and Actuall explicit Consent it is false 1. Because our Brethren crave not the consent of VVomen and young Men and yet the Preaching of Gods word the Administration of the Sacraments and the Government of the Church concernes them all 2. Because scarsly is it possible or at least it falls rarely out that every one whom every Act of Ecclesiasticall Government concernes consents thereunto for Voyces and suffrages sometimes are divided yea among our Brethren in their voycing So that this is against themselves 3. In our Churches it is done by the consent of all either Formall or Virtuall since our Ecclesisticall Discipline and Government is established by all and our Church Rulers have the Power to rule according to Gods word by consent of the People so far forth as they actually consent thereunto or contradict it not 4. Either they understand here the generall Forme of Government and the power of Jurisdiction or the exercise thereof in actuall judging or the execution thereof after the matter is judged which they will to be done with the consent of all The first is established by God without our consent as they avow The second we deny it for in the Politicall Government the Judges doe Voyce and judge without the consent of all whom it concerneth As for the third if it concerne all particularly as Excommunication then it is published and if none contradict the Judgement they are thought to consent at least interpretativè since they contradict it not or if any man dissent his Reasons are to be heard which if they be just the proceeding is to be hindred if not he is to rest contented according to Gods word And if after sufficient satisfaction he acquiesces not he is to be punished according to the quality of his Fault Ob. If your Ecclesiasticall Senate judge alone as the Representative Church as ye call it then must it judge according to the Judgement of the People or Reall Church otherwise it shall no more represent the People or the whole Congregation then an Assent represents a Dissent or Black represents White But that can it not unlesse it know the Judgement of the People which cannot be known but by their Voycing and hearing of them E. R. I answer 1. to the Major it must be conforme to their actuall Judgement formall I deny it for the reason here alleadged to their vertuall Judgement I grant it for they professe actually that they will follow Gods word wherein vertually is conteined and they may be deduce if they will that the Representative Church judges not according to their erronious formall and actuall judgement and so the Assumption is false R. 2. To their actuall Judgement whatsoever it be I deny it To that whereby they will judge truly according to Gods word I grant it and then the Assumption is false R. 3. To all their Judgement I deny the Major for it is impossible to follow the Judgement contradictory of divers Persons or those of one man which actually and formally or virtually may be contradictory to themselves R. 4. I answer the Representative Church must judge according to the actuall Judgement of the Reall Church or People it is false For what if the People be infected with Heresie Shall the Ministers and Rulers of the Church in that case become Hereticks or judge in favour of Hereticks according to the Judgement Such as it should be according to Gods word it is true for the Representative Church is not so called as if it represented the Churches Judgement such as it is but such as it should be according to Gods word that rules them both yea if that should represent this actuall Judgement it should doe more then 20. divers Judgements which oftentimes are to be found amongst the People upon one subject And so we deny the Assumption of the Syllogisme To the confirmation thereof I answer that it should no more represent their actuall Judgement I grant it but it should represent their Potentiall Judgement such as they are bound to have howsoever their actuall Judgements be contradictory Ob. But what if the Judgement of your Ecclesiasticall Senate or Representative Church be wrong and that of the Reall Church sound A. That Case is extraordinary in respect of the order established in Gods Church for when it is said Tell it unto the Church and if hee heare not the Church c. It is supposed that the Church will judge the judgements of the Lord or according to his Law neither hath Shee any other order from God but in that extraordinarie Case supposed I answer that neither the People nor any particular man is bound to obey the Representative Church but every one hath power of God to contest lawfully the Judgement of the Representative Church and Shee is bound to admit them in their contestations and to heare them according to the Scripture and to amend their Judgement And if all the Church or the greater part of the Reall Church or Congregation oppose it selfe to their Judgement it cannot stand nor be put in execution yea I dare say that the Representative Church shewing her selfe pertinacious in her errour after sufficient conviction or refusing to heare her conviction is really Schismaticall or Hereticall according to the matter contested in Gods account And howsoever particular men cannot right themselves but are bound to suffer injustice so long as they stay in such Churches since they are not Ecclesiasticall Judges or to retire themselves out of the societie of such Oppressors to the end they may more easily defend themselves neverthelesse the Collective Body of the Reall Church or the greater part thereof if it have the Abilitie is bound to refute them to make them ashamed yea to contemne their Judgement and by all lawfull meanes oppresse such Oppressors And this is the Doctrine of our first Reformers oppressed by the Roman Antichristianisme against Papists which holds also in Reformed Churches For it is all one to me to find Antichristian Tyranny at Rome or at Edinburgh London Paris or Amsterdam It is not the place but Antichristian Tyranny or Doctrine that makes an Antichrist And to be quit with them here I aske againe what if the Judgement of the Consistorie be right and that of the People which ordinarily falls out wrong or if the Judgement of the greater part of the People be wrong and that of the lesser part right what then is to be done or followed Here they shall find themselves in no lesse straights then they think to draw us unto Ob. They say it is a thing never heard nor seene in any Kingdome of the world or in any Ecclesiasticall Judicatorie before Calvin and Beza that all the People should be secretly as it were in a Chamber of Meditation judged out of all mens presence by six or ten Ecclesiasticall Persons A. They that say so have not seen nor heard much of that which passes in the Christian world it is a thing very ordinary to see some civill Causes in civill Judicatories Pleaded with the doors shut by the consent of the Parties yea sometimes by the will of the Judges 2. And I would pray them to go no farther to tell me if every man hath libertie to enter in at the Parliament here at home They cannot deny but that the door is kept close and that ordinarily only the Members of the House have entry 3. And neverthelesse if the Parties desire to plead their Causes in the presence of so many as may enter I doubt not but the Reformed Church will grant it them yea there is an Act of the French Discipline to that purpose commanding that the Parties desiring their Causes to be discussed openly the doores cast open it should be granted Yea wee maintain that in such Cases when parties complaine of such secret Ecclesiasticall oppression the Church is bound by law and Conscience to proceed publickly and to justifie to the world her Proceedings otherwise shee is no wayes to be believed And this Argument I had willingly passed over if it had not been urged against me and that I had beene prayed to answer it by some of our Brethren that thought it so strong that it could not be answered But to answer ad hominem may not such faults fall out amongst them that object this Argument as we have Examples of it Our Question is not so much what is done as what should be done How to establish a Law against Abuses in the Churches and not How men abuse their owne Authoritie FINIS
comprehends a certaine number of persons of one or divers places Here it is to be observed 1. That the Church may be denominated universall or particular either absolutely or respectively in relation to another bigger or lesse so Absolutely the universall Church comprehends in its selfe all the Churches of all times of all places of all forts of Persons Angels and men of all Estates or conditions and Covenants As that in the Covenant of integrity naturall or supernaturall as of Angels and men before their Fall and that in the state of sin under the Covenant of Grace and in the state of Glory And according to this consideration the Church of the Angels is one particular Church That of Mankind another The Triumphant and Militant two others and in a word all the parts thereof may be called particular Churches Respectively the Church of Mankind is an universall Church in respect of its parts as of that before and after the Fall the Triumphant and Militant so the Church after the Fall is universall in respect of that of the Old and New Testament which be its parts and the Christian in respect of its parts in Heaven and on Earth of the Primitive and that of subsequent times that which is in all the world in respect of its parts in divers Kingdomes Provinces c. But that which is most to the purpose in this our Discourse is the Catholick Christian Church here upon earth 6. Againe the Militant Church whether she be considered according to her universality and totality or particularity in her severall parts and Assemblies in respect of her internall and externall forme is either visible or invisible The invisible Church is that which cannot be seene but only is beleeved by Faith The visible is that which we see or behold where it is to be observed 1. That the word visible is not to be taken here strictly for the object of the sight alone or the word see or behold for the act thereof but in a more full signification for that which any waies is perceptible by the eye or any externall or internall Sense or by naturall Reason such as are the confession and profession of Christian vertues the exercise of their externall Acts whereof some be apprehended by the sight and Eye as the acts of Charity some by the hearing and Eare as the confession of Faith some by feeling as the assistance and attendance upon the Sicke some by the internall Senses some by Act of Reason only and the reason of this is because the word visible must signifie all that which is denyed by invisible now invisible signifies a negation of all that can be apprehended by any Sense or Act of Reason Ergo the word visible must signifie that which can be apprehended by any Sense or Act of Reason so that it belong to the Externall Form of the Church which represents the internall Forme thereof 2. Besides that it is here to be observed that the visible Church of it self is evermore visible and conspicuous but by Accident becomes sometimes invisible latent obscure and unseene and that 1. either because of the persecution Shee suffers by her enemies when Shee hides her selfe in the Wildernesse or 2. by reason of her slitting from one place to another as when Shee went from Hierusalem to Pella or 3. because of the weaknesse of the sight of the Seer as in Eli 1 King 9. verse 4. for want of sight as to those to whom as the Gospel so the Church professing the Gospell is hid and invisible 2 Cor. 2 3 4. 3. Finally It is not to be omitted that this is not a Division of the Churchinto two Species or two integrant parts or any waies into parts really but Accidentally distinguished For a Church altogether one in the same time and place and according to the same parts may be howsoever according to divers considerations and Formes which be the grounds of divers considerations it may be Visible and Invisible as the Church of Geneva which is visible in respect of her externall forme viz. Confession of the true Christian Faith the profession thereof and other christian vertues Item in respect of her Discipline c. And the same Church in respect of her internall Forme viz. Faith Hope Charity the Spirit of Christ c which be spirituall qualities altogether invisible in the sense before declared is altogether invisible 7. The Militant Church both in her totality and partiality may be divided into two integrant parts viz. into the Over-seers that preach teach rule c. and the Flock which is over-seene And they be the two principall parts concurring to its integrity without the which it cannot be a totall or whole visible Church and therefore a Church without Oversseers is not a whole visible Church I say a whole or totall Church for without Pastors it may be a totum essentiale i.e. essentially a Church for Pastors are not absolutely necessary for the essence but for the integrity of a Church Item I say without Over-seers 1. All Over-seers for it may be that a Church may subsist without Pastors alone or Doctoss alone or Rulers or Elders alone or Deacons alone but not without all 8. The Militant visible Church whether it be conceived in its universality and totality or in its particularity in severall Congregations is either Reall or Representative The Reall Militant Church is any visible Church here upon Earth composed of all its reall Professors of the Gospel The Representative Church is an Assembly of certaine Persons or Church-Officers in an Ecclesiasticall Iudicatory chosen out of the whole Body of the Reall Church to represent it as it is such be the Sessions or Consistories the Synods Provinciall and Nationall As for the Reall visible Church some thinke that it is very probable that it is never altogether without Iustifying Faith but it is probable that where there be very small Congregations of seven or eight persons they may be all without Faith and especially where the Church is corrupt or where the Members are all vicious and dissolute Their conjecture will hold more probable in great Congregations in Provinciall and Nationall Churches But in a Representative Church composed of very few Church-Officers it is very probable that sometimes they may all be without Faith howsoever they represent a Church of Reall Beleevers for to represent Reall Beleevers it is not absolutely necessary that they that are to represent them be Beleevers or have the same essentiall and internall Forme with those whom they represent but that they have the externall confession and profession of their Faith whereby they represent them nor represent they their Faith but their profession of faith So the Image of Caesar represents really Caesar without any humane nature such as is in Caesar and so may men without Faith represent them that have Faith By the word Church we must understand the Militant Christian particular and reall Church consisting of one Congregation These