of this Church Fiftly I desired to be resolued Ibidem q. 22. whether all the errours of Barrowisme do not follow and may be concluded of M. Cartwrights and his consorts assertions and whether it bee a matter fit that these men should deale with that sort of sectaries and not rather be constrained publikely to recant their owne foule errors All these questions M. Cartwright answereth with silence Sixtly Ibidem q. 24. I mooued a question whether M. Cartwright and his consorts do not either flatly deny or call in question the principall points of her Maiesties supremacie and whether they take not from her power to ordeine rites and orders for the Church likewise authoritie to nominate Bishops to appoint Ecclesiasticall commissioners and to delegate learned men to heare the last appeale from Ecclesiastical courts to cal synodes and other authoritie giuen to the prince by the lawes of England and endeuoure to bring in forreine lawes and iurisdiction repugnant to the statute of the princes supremacie and prerogatiue and the lawes and liberties both of the Church of England and of her Maiesties subiects if M. Cartwright meant to haue satisfied the doubt concerning his opinion and conceit of her Maiesties supremacie as he goeth about it he ought to haue answered this question directly and particulerly not doing it who seeth not that he slideth away in cloudes of generalitie and priuate conceites of his owne fancy concerning this matter Seuenthly it was demaunded Answere to the petit q. 26. 29. whether by M. Cartwrights rules in those places where they are receiued the Church goods are not spoiled and the liuings of the ministery deuided and rewards of learning taken away and also whether if the same should here be receiued the like wrack would not be wrought and her Maiestie depriued of tenthes and subsidies and a great part of her reuenues and of many faithfull and loyall seruitors which by those lawes being made vnable to liue would also be made vnable to doe her seruice Hee hath nothing to answere that will make for him Eightly it was asked Ibidem qu. 30. whether M. Cartwright and his followers haue not in all places where they haue bene receiued made sectes and diuisions and hardened mens hearts and filled their minds with pride and humorous vanities to which he saith nothing Percase he knoweth it is no slander Ninthly Ibidem qu. 31. I demaunded whether it be not dangerous for this state that M. Cartwright and his partakers haue so much vrged this Church to imitate the examples of Geneua and Scotland considering the dangerous courses which they tooke and the hard effects that followed of them It cannot be denied and therefore M. Cartwright holdeth his peace 10. Ibidem qu. 33. The question was asked whether that the subuersion of the state of the Church which foloweth necessarily of M. Cartwrights disciplinarian deuises is not a great scandale and hinderance to the reformation of true Religion in other places It is most apparent and therefore M. Cartwright forbeareth to answere 11. Ibidem q. 34. It is demaunded whether M. Cartwright doe not as well subiect Princes to excommunication as Sanders or Allen or other Papistes and whether his doctrine is not as pernicious to princes authoritie as theirs It must needs be granted and therefore he passeth by and saith iust nothing 12. Answere to the petit qu. 49. A doubt is made whether M. Cartwright doth beleeue that subiects may rebel against such Kings as they accompt Papists or tyrants as some of that side haue taught and hee passeth by in a graue silence 13. Ibidem qu. 51. It is asked whether M. Cartwright and his felowes haue not assembled in synodes or rather conuenticles and there enacted decreed certeine rules orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and also subscribed them procured others to subscribe them and by all possible meanes gone about without authoritie to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her Maiestie and ancient gouernment of Christ his Church This is most true and therefore passed ouer in silence 14. Idemaunded also whether they haue not in their said orders Ibidem qu. 52. which they call holy discipline taken al authoritie in Church causes from the Christian magistrate and giuen it to their consistories and synodes in so much that the magistrate is not once mentioned in that platforme and further I would know how the sufferance of these proceedings may stand with the maiestie of a Prince and with gouernment Likewise it may be demanded of M. Cartwright how he that hath bound himselfe to this forme of discipline by his word subscription may be thought to allow of her Maiesties supreme gouernment which the lawes of this land doe giue vnto her In this case he is as silent as Harpocrates 15. Ibidem q. 53. I desired to knowe whether M. Cartwright haue not taught that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their holy discipline as they call it is neither increased nor diminished whether the prince be Christian or heathen and likewise if he do not thinke or haue not taught that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one and that a Christian king hath no more to doe with the Church gouernment then any pagan prince or Emperour hath but he will tell vs nothing 16. Ibidem q. 54. I asked M. Cartwright whether he his adherents haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent authoritie or allowance and likewise without her authoritie or knowledge haue not both made secret meetings and established diuers newe orders and broched newe opinions and all contrary to the doctrine faith and gouernment of this Church of England this string M. Cartwright dare not touch 17. Ibidem q. 55. I asked him whether hee was not presumptuous if no more in doing these things and whether he ought not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults Likewise it may bee here asked of him whether hauing both in Fenners booke and his replies and writings taught written and allowed diuers points of false-doctrine he is not to be brought to a publike recantation for satisfaction of those weake ones that hee hath offended will it please him yet to answere this question directly 18. Answere to the petit qu. 57. I demaunded whether M. Cartwright swore truely in the Starre-chamber when he affirmed on his oth that he neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery monarchie there ought to be certain magistrates like to the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to controll and depose the king and to proceed further against him seeing he called M. Fenners booke wherein these points are expresly set downe the principles and grounds of heauenly Canaan and doth not onely without all exception allow it but also highly commend it this is also a point which he dare
not answere directly and plainly 19. Ibidem qu. 58. I would also vnderstand whether M. Cartwright and his fellowes haue not confessed on their othes taken in the Starre-chamber that notwithstanding all that care that hath bene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers points and whether they did wisely to subscribe to such orders or dutifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused imperfect platforme of gouernment to the Parliament that it might be confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and last of all whether it were wisdome to dissolue a state already setled to embrace a gouernment wherupon the authors themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke euer will be and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice doth not he that holdeth his peace consent 20. Ibidem qu. 59. I desired to heare whether M. Cartwright and his companions do not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the Parliament for the receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernment commaunded by Gods word and therefore do vtterly disclaime by a most necessary implication her Maiestie to haue any preeminence and authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they do not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuil magistrate but yeeld all that power to their synodes classes and consistories It may also be further demaunded of him how this forme may be deemed perfect seeing they confesse they were not yet resolued vpon diuers points M. Cartwright answereth nothing 21. I demanded whether M. Cartwright did not vnderstand Answere to the petit qu. 60. that Copinger pretended an extraordinary calling which moued him to attempt matters that might proue very dangerous It might also haue bene demaunded of him whether albeit he would not be acquainted with the particulers of his lewd purposes yet he knew not that something was in hand for his and others deliuerance out of prison and for the aduancement of the consistoriall gouernment M. Cartwright standeth mute 22. Ibidem qu. 61. I doubted whether M. Cartwright mainteyning the excommunication of princes by the eldership and other points of Fenners booke doeth not mainteine doctrine as dangerous as Sanders Rosse and Allen that mainteine the excommunication of princes by the Pope and the Popes proceedings and yet M. Cartwright resolueth me not 23. Ibidem q. 75. I demaunded whether M. Cartwright did reueile to any magistrate the letters of Copinger or his strange deseignements but he deigneth not to satisfie any such demaund 24. Ibidem qu. 92. I asked whether M. Cartwrights answere to the Rhemish annotations vpon the new Testament cōtaine not diuers points of doctrine contrary to all the fathers to the faith of this Church and all sound diuinitie and why if it bee otherwise he doth not subiect it to the censures of the learned and what saith hee nothing 25. Ibidem qu. 93. I desired to know whether M. Cartwright or some friend of his did not threaten excōmunication against a certeine marchant at Middlebourg if he would not desist pursuing a seruant of his that had wasted his goods and whether such courses bee allowable All or most of these questions M. Cartwright passeth ouer in silence and doeth not so much as touch them in his apologie how nigh soeuer they touch him Beside these questions diuers other matters were asked of of M. Cartwright in the Starre-chamber whereto he hath either answered nothing at all or nothing to purpose Being demaunded Interrog 2. how far forth he hath affirmed or alowed the Queenes authoritie Ecclesiasticall to bee restreined by the iniunctions vnder colour whereof diuers allow and sweare to the supremacie that otherwise cōdemne it M. Cartwright saith he is not bound to answere the secret of his opinion belike he feareth to disclose Being demaunded Interrog 3. whether he hath mainteined or allowed that the king being no pastor doctor nor elder is to be accompted among the Church gouernours and whether in a well ordered Church the prince may ordeine orders and ceremonies in the Church M. Cartwright saith hee is not bound to answere and being reexamined as the Iudges determined hee ought he persisted in his former obstinacie a plaine argument of his peruerse opinion concerning her Maiesties gouernment in causes Ecclesiasticall Being demaunded Interrog 4. whether he did acknowledge the Ecclesiastical gouernment established by her Maiestie to be lawful and allowable by Gods word M. Cartwright answered that he tooke not himselfe bound to answere and so persisted being reexamined ergo he thought it not lawfull Being demaunded Interrog 5. whether he would acknowledge the Sacraments to be duly and sincerely ministred as they be ordeined to be ministred by the booke of common prayer M. Cartwright answered that he was not bound to answere and reexamined still refused to yeeld any further answere doeth he then thinke them to be sincerely and duly administred in our Church Being demaunded whether hee thought those that fauourd not the discipline to be accompted Christian brethren in the same sence Interrog 6. and as properly as men of his opinion M. Cartwright refused to answere as to a matter impertinent behold I beseech you how he accompteth of vs that mislike his new disciplinarian deuises Being examined whether he thought the Church of England refusing the presbyteriall gouernment to be the true Church in as proper sence Interrog 7. as that Church that embraceth the same M. Cartwright according to his olde tune refused to answere and said he was not bound Being demaunded Interrog 22. how farre he hath affirmed that without breach of the peace of the church of England as it is now gouerned men might treat of alteratiō of lawes proceed to practise the new discipline he maketh a sleight vnsufficient answere Being demanded at how many classicall or synodical assemblies he had bene present Interrog 23. 24. and what was treated in them hee either staggreth or answereth not Being demanded Interrog 24. whether in their assemblies they had not treated and concluded diuers matters direct contrary to the Ecclesiasticall lawes as for example that vnpreaching ministers are no ministers that no obedience is to bee giuen to Archbishops or Bishops that their ordination was to be receiued onely as a ciuile ordinance M. Cartwright answereth that they were treated of but not concluded and prayeth not to be pressed to answer further viz. how farre these matters were liked of which argueth his dislike of Ecclesiasticall lawes and presumption in determining against them Being demaunded whether he had not treated Answere to the interrogat in Starre-chamber Interrog 27. or propounded certaine meanes of maintenance for Archbishops and Bishops deanes and other officers and ministers Ecclesiastical hauing
So you count the prince as a simple fellow and as a poore gardener among the magnificoes in your elderships You say he may haue a voyce call a counsell and appoint times to meete but he 1 2. lib. 2. p. 157. 156. may neither iudge nor make orders but ought to confirme and execute the decrees of the coūsels And do not the Papists the like It is most apparant both in our owne countreymens writings as in 2 Devisib monar lib. 2. c. 3. Sanders and 3 Confut. ap p. 304. Harding and in 4 Bellar. de magistr others also If then the Papistes sure you haue no good cōceit of her Maiesties supremacie And this 5 In a certeine epistle concerning M. Cartur reply M. Whitaker and others haue noted before me lest you imagine me to be the author of this charge Fiftly being demaunded by me whether the disciplinarians whose leader and as it were oracle you are do not in effect deny the principall points of her Maiesties supremacie and take from her power to ordeine rites and orders for the Church and right to nominate Bishops and to appoint Ecclesiasticall commissioners and to delegate learned men to heare the last appeale from Ecclesiasticall courts likewise authoritie to call and gouerne synodes and other prerogatiues and rights giuen to the prince by the statutes and lawes of England and finally whether you doe not endeuour to bring in forreigne lawes iurisdiction repugnant to the statutes of supremacie and her Maiesties prerogatiue you answere nothing Which is nothing els but a plaine confession that you dare not directly and in plaine termes declare your opinion concerning the foresaid matters and doe indeede abridge her Maiestie of a great part of her royal authoritie Lastly when you were called vpon your othe in the Starre-chamber to answere to diuers points of her supremacie you shew your selfe to haue a peruerse opinion and therefore dare not answere directly Being 6 Interrog 3. demanded whether you haue not taught or allowed that the prince being neither pastour nor elder is to bee accompted among the gouernours of the Church or among those that are to be gouerned and also whether in a well ordered Church he may ordeine orders and ceremonies therein doe you not say for all answere that you are not bound to answere and do you not persist therein Now how can it be supposed that you allow the prince to be supreme gouernor that will not acknowledge him to be any gouernor of the Church at all or howe can it be said you allow the points of her Maiesties supremacie that will not confesse she hath power to make orders or to ordeine ceremonies for the Church True it is that you offer to sweare to the supremacie so likewise doeth Fecknam I doe here presently saith 1 Fecknam to Bishop Horne Fecknam offer my selfe to receiue a corporall othe vpon the Euangelistes that I doe verily thinke and am perswaded in my conscience that the Queenes highnesse is the onely supreme gouernour of this Realme and of all other her Maiesties dominions c. and that shee hath vnder God the souereintie and rule ouer all maner persons Ecclesiasticall and temporall And yet he doeth not beleeue the seuerall points of her Maiesties authoritie nor acknowledge them So likewise it may be you will acknowledge her Maiesties authoritie in generall termes and yet wil not acknowledge the seuerall points of her authoritie You doe also offer to sweare to the supremacie but you haue a peruerse interpretatiō by which you ouerthrow all the chiefe points of it in effect Your pretence is the interpretation of the iniunction which kinde of bad dealing and meaning you detected sufficiently in your answere to the 2. interrogatory in the Starre-chamber For being demaunded howe farre foorth you haue affirmed or allowed the Queenes authoritie Ecclesiasticall to berestreined by the iniunctions you say you are not bound to answere By which it appeareth that you thinke the iniunctions restreine her authoritie and that so farre as you dare not tell vs what you thinke Wherefore if in deede your opinion be sound cōcerning her Maiesties supremacie answere these matters directly and tell vs what she may do what she may not doe by the lawes of your discipline and whether you meane to holde your former opinions or renounce them For whatsoeuer you sweare your bookes and the Queenes authoritie giuen her by the lawes of this land cannot stand together M. Cartwright answere being charged to haue highly commended M. Fenners booke which 1 Fenneri Theolog Sac. lib. 5. p. 187. giueth authoritie to inferiour persons to restraine their souereigne as did the ephori in Sparta I 2 You vtterly mistake it take it M. Fenner giueth no such authoritie but onely where the lawes of the land doe establish such an authoritie as the ephori in 3 The ephori were of Sparta the city not Lacedemonia the countrey Lacedemonia had and if M. Fenner did yet how doth my epistle commendatorie set before his booke 4 Because you allowe it and commend it and set it out make me of his iudgement as if he that commendeth a booke iustifieth whatsoeuer is in the booke or as if notwithstanding M. Fenners 5 And more presumption made notorious by his extrauagant diuinity singular learning which for his age many I doubt not both at home and abroad do esteeme you allow it and disallow it to or can you deny that you commended his rules as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 coelestis I 6 CanCanaan might not or doe not differ from him in some things conteined in his booke besides hee himselfe confessing that by oth in the Starre-chamber I haue disauowed the allowance of any such opinion which hee fathereth of M. Fenner let it be considered with 7 With a good minde to shew your contradictions and how hardly you are drawen to obedience what minde he so often rubbeth vpon this point and both for this and the former charge I leaue it to be considered with what 8 What ciuill honesty haue you to charge me with slandering you or vrge me to moue these matters Christian modestie M. Sutcliffe may now the 9 If you quiet not your selues you must heare it the fourth fifth time second and the third time mooue question and that in print of those things to our discredit which her Maiesties most honourable councell was pleased shoulde be 10 In lawe wee conuent you not in writing we may discourse vpon these things as oft as you pretend innocency no further proceeded in and that he is not 11 You doe not content your selues with it albeit neuer so light in respect of your faults contented with that imprisonment we endured which their honours are satisfied with Lastly my iudgement in sundry matters of the discipline 12 That is sufficient excepted wherein differing from sundry learned men in our church I
his aduersarie and am well acquainted with his folly wherein I leaue the man still rauing like those that cast stones into the aire and so proceed ¶ The preface And so harbouring still in thy brest the 1 He is altogether a stranger to this crooked generation comfortable guest of a good conscience as an asswagement of all the miseries and 2 Doeth he not plainly confesse himselfe to be a malcontent discontentments of this life cease not to pray in the 3 He saieth well in the spirite for voyces of prayer or prayses for her Maiestie or the state we seldome heare to proceed out of their mouthes spirite for the peace of Hierusalem and for her right excellent maiestie that hath bene so long Gods good instrument of that happy peace that as Iosua commaunded the Sunne to stand till he were auenged on his enemies so the Lord would commaund this 4 This sunne-shine the disciplinarians haue much obscured with the mistes of their turbu Ient stirres sunne-shine of our peace to stand and neuer to goe downe till all the 5 Then should M. Cartw. and I. Throk lie in the mire enemies of his church bee brought lowe to the dust and as that was the longest day that euer was so this hauing bene alreadie by the mercy of God the happiest may also prooue by the power of God to be 6 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the longest reigne that euer was That the date of her life may if it please the Lord end with the 7 Vae generationi huicà fermēto Tharisaorum Bornard in cant last date and dissolution of this earth to the 8 Diligamus non verbe lingua sed opere veritate 1. Ioan. 3. continuallblisse and renowne of this land to the terror and amazing of the wicked to the comfort and reioycing of the godly and to her owne euerlasting peace and happinesse in the life to come ¶ The answere Of all the guestes that come to the synoddicall meetings houses of these sectaries there is no greater stranger then this guest called Good conscience that he talketh of for neither in their publike writings against the church and chiefe gouernours thereof nor in their priuate negotiations and contracts doe they for any thing I can learne vse either good conscience or good dealing Other good fellowes there are that doe frequent their houses more often as pride disdaine malice enuie hatred detraction lying oppression follie furie and such like with which they are better acquainted but it is an easie matter to hide soule matters vnder faire wordes Wolues are disguised oft times in sheeps clothing and poyson is sometimes giuen in honie Impia sub dulci melle venena latent Take heed therefore of malcontents that cut mens throtes with their good conscience and doe not straight thinke that these men loue her matestie for that they make such glosing and flattering praiers it may be in ore mel in corde fel. All men honour the sunne in the midst of the firmament but when night commeth they fall on sleepe and forget all And of them wee may truely say That they flattered with their mouth dissembled with their tongue Psal 78. but their heart is not vpright for if these kind of men had truely loued her maiestie and from their heart prayed for her they would not haue prayed for her in spirit only as this man would haue his consortes to doe but expressed their affection in their words they would also in their prayers as other good subiects doe haue expressed and giuen to her her due stile they would not haue couertly and cunningly taken from her all power in ecclesiastical gouemment as they haue done not once so much as mentioning either her or her roiall authoritie in their booke of holy and synoddicall discipline to which M. Cartwright and many others subscribed they would not haue impugned her lawes and by right and wrong sought to haue altered her gouernment and to haue established new lawes and orders in this church they would not haue disgraced that blessed reformation which wee doe enioy by her meanes neither would 1 Gilby p. 66. 88. 142. Motion with submiss p. 31. 32. 33. they haue resembled her to Ieroboam Ahab Iehoram Ahas Gedeon Nadab Saul Iehu and Asa in those points wherein they failed in their duties toward God neither would M. Cart. haue made her maiestie and all princes subiect to the eldership which is nothing els but for the supremacie of the Pope to bring in the supremacie of the eldership and as he 1 2. part 2. reply pag. 65. 92. saieth to make princes to licke the dust of their feete so that where we had wel hoped that we had bene deliuered from kissing the Popes feete they would make vs not onely to kisse the feete of a packe of base pezants and artizans but also to licke the dust vnder their feete Much I doe know they doe brag of their loialtie and good minds but giue me the heart and let them leaue their glorious wordes What seruice at any time haue they done her maiestie at home or abroad in armes or in peace in the church or common wealth nay rather where haue they not bene readie to 2 Martin was then published to make a mutinie at home when the Spaniards were on the coast to fight with vs abroad crosse those that haue bene readie to doe her seruice and to trouble the state at home as valiant men defended the same abroad they may do well therefore to haue a more principall regard of her maiestie and their dutie towards her hereafter not either to shut her out of their discipline as they haue done or els to preferre Th. Cartwr innocencie before her safetie as this wretched prefator hath done painting him out first in many strange colours and gilding as they say earthen pots in many golden words and not remembring her saue in the last clause and to no purpose Which fault to amend let vs desire God not onely to shield her from her open enemies but also to discouer all her dissembling friends and to gard her from their trecherous practises and lewd disgraces that she may bee no lesse victorious ouer her open foes then secured from her pretended friends But enough of this malicious and yet most worthlesse gracelesse preface Let vs now come to M. Cartwrights briefe which is the foundation of the prefators vaine brags that thing that gaue the title to this worke and with whom our principall purpose is to deale if it may so please his highnesse who scarce vouchsafeth to looke downe vpon me or to speake to me in his Treatise the words of his briefe I set downe truely and entierly least thereby hee might thinke to escape with some aduantage THE EXAMINATION OF M. Cartwrights Apologie M. Cartwright HIs 1 Great wordes small reason slanders are either in 2 Doe slanders consist in
According to the meaning of the statute I thinke he will not take the oath for then he should declare that the Queene hath power to establish and disanull Ecclesiasticall lawes to appoint Ecclesiasticall Iudges officers and commissioners to heare appeales or to appoint delegates to heare them when they are made from Ecclesiasticall courtes to nominate Bishops to receiue first fruits and tenthes of Ecclesiasticall liuings and such like rights priuiledges as the statutes of this land giue her but that he may not nor I thinke wil not do for that the lawes of their discipline deny it if so be he would I confesse he should satisfie me in this point but hee should vtterly ruinate the foundation of his aldermens consistoriall iurisdiction to whom they giue most of these things Yea I doubt whether others would be satisfied for as in religion it is a note of an hereticall disposition to doubt of the grounds of our faith so in policie it is a note of a disloyall person to doubt of the princes lawfull authoritie which the statutes giue her In which case seeing you were once albeit now you vtterly deny it I pray you let vs not haue you too much boast of your innocencie and that in such long Prefaces as that before your short briefe especially seeing heretofore you haue written and done many things to the praeiudice of her supremacie in Ecclesiasticall causes In the booke of your holy discipline wherein you hold that a perfect forme of Church gouernment such as is prescribed in Gods word is conteined you haue vtterly excluded the princes authoritie and debarred him from all gouernment for you haue not so much as mentioned him In one of the disciplinarian bookes of common prayer 1 This booke they sought to haue confirmed by act of Parliament and administration of Sacraments you leaue out the Christian magistrate in another there is some mention made of him but it is in the ende of the booke and after all the officers of the Church described Thirdly in direct termes you say that the Christian magistrate can no more be an officer of the Church 2 2. reply p. 420. then the pastors can bee magistrates how then can he be supreme gouernor of the Church that is no gouernor at all 3 2. repl 2. parl p. 147. as you say You hold also that a Christian magistrate hath no more authoritie in the Church then a heathen prince which is sufficient to exclude him out of the Church gouernment Finally you do subiect him to the excommunication of your elderships and place the magistrate among those that are to obey and the elders among commanders Fourthly you wil not deny but that the Papists deny her Maiesties supremacie in causes Ecclesiasticall how then can it be said that you hold a good opinion of it when you in your books do giue her no more authoritie then they and abridge the same as farre as they doe 4 2. repl p. 48. Doe you not deny that the prince ought to be called the head of particuler and visible Churches within his dominions Do you not likewise 5 Ibidem p. 157. 167. take from him authoritie to determine of Church causes and 6 1. reply p. 192. power to ordeine lawes and ceremonies It cannot be denied your wordes are plaine all which you borow from the Papists They subiect the prince to the Pope you to your elderships neither can you shew any other difference betwixt your selfes and them For where you say first that you doe not exempt your ministers frō the punishment of the ciuil magistrate as the Papists doe their Priestes you erre in both for both would you claime immunitie for your ministers and they do not simply exempt their priestes but in certeine cases The authors of the 7 Admonition 2. p. 65. admonition would haue themselues and their companions by act of Parliament exempted from the authoritie of Iustices and from their enditings and finings In your 8 Lib. 2. reply you would haue the authoritie of the ciuill magistrate to descend from Christ as God and not as mediator whereof it followeth that Christian princes haue no rule ouer their subiects as Christians but onely as men 1 De visib monarch lib. 2. c. 3. as Saunders also holdeth all of you deny that any appeale is to be admitted from the determination of the synode to the prince How then are not the synodes exempt from princes iurisdiction when the prince hath no authoritie ouer them yea and in Suffolke certeine of this sect in a supplication to the Lords of her Maiesties counsell affirme that it was a hard course and tending to the discredit of the ministery that their ministers should be presented before the Iudges and endited arraigned and condemned Contrarywise 2 Against the apologie of the Church p. 306. Harding saith that good Kings may put Bishops and priestes in minde of their duties and bridle both their riot and arrogancie And in 3 Ibidem p. 303. another place that a prince may make lawes for the obseruation of both tables and punish the transgressors Feckenam 4 To bishop Horne offereth to sweare that her Maiestie hath vnder God the soueraintie and rule ouer all persons within her dominions whether they bee Ecclesiasticall or temporall Fatemur personas Episcoporum qui in toto orbe fuerunt saith 5 De visib monarch lib. 2. c. 3. Sanders Romano Imperatori esse subiectos And for ciuil causes it is their common opinion that 6 Harding reioynd f. 379. priests may be conuented before ciuil Iudges and for Ecclesiastical causes certeine 7 Act. of Parliament anno 1584. acts 2. ministers of Scotland refused to answere before the king Secondly you say that the Papists will haue the prince to execute whatsoeuer they conclude be it good or bad which you will not For you graunt the prince authoritie to set order where there is no lawfull ministery and to stay vnlawfull decrees of lawfull ministers As if the 8 Hard. confus apol p. 304. 317. Papists did not grant as much or as if Papists held that the princes were to execute wicked decrees Againe it is euident that you would haue all men to stand to the 9 Admonit determination of your synodes And albeit your synodes doe decree bad things yet you wil not giue princes authoritie to iudge them How then can they stay them will you giue them extraordinary authoritie that is your meaning But how shall wee know when they worke by ordinary when by extraordinary authoritie Beside that you deny this extraordinary authoritie as long as there is a lawfull ministery And albeit your doings be vnlawfull yet you will not be stayed by the prince Thirdly you 10 2. p. 164. affirme that you do not vtterly seclude the prince from your Churchassemblies for oftentimes a simple man and as the prouerbe saith a gardner hath spoken to purpose