prophetically no doubt counselled Moses his Sonne in Law not to ware out himselfe with continuall attendance of the people from morning untill evening to enquire for them of God but that hee would provide able men out of all the people who might judge of all smaller matters themselves and bring the greater unto Moses who was to bee for the people to God-ward and bring the causes unto God Exod. 18. from verse 8. 13. to 22. And when Moses was to bee gathered to his people the Lord required him to lay his hands on Joshua in whom was the spirit that hee might bee enabled to goe in and out before the people and stand before the Priest who should aske counsell for them in all doubtfull matters Numb. 27. 13. 17. 18. 21. The Priests and Iudges being thus miraculously qualified God commanded the people in all streights and controversies of difficulty to have recourse unto them for sentence or direction according whereunto they were required to yeeld absolute obedience without gain-saying or murmuring lest they were put to death as those that did presumptuously Deut. 17. 8. to 13. and 19. 7. 2. ch. 19. 11. 1. Sam. 9. 9. 2. Sam 24. 11. 1 King 14. 3. 2. King 8. 8. with diverse others and well they did deserve it doubtlesse when they might see such infallible evidence in these Ministeres of the Lord that it was his divine pleasure it should be so and that for their advantage too The children of Israel therefore had recourse unto them upon all occasion and the Lord kept good correspondence with them not answering them by amphibologies doubtfull and delusive Oracles but by discovering to them his will his purposes and intentions about whatsoever they enquired of him 1. Sam 22. 13. 14. 15. Jer. 23. 37. Amos 3. 7. Judg. 1. 1. and 20. 18 So on the contrary when they tooke in hand an enterprise without asking his counsell and advice we may observe it did not thrive with them it proved otherwise than they desired as when Joshua made league with the Gibeonites Joshua 9. 14. And now not to send you againe to the Jewes though you will have much a doe to finde an other Nation to which you may apply your text of Deut. 17. 8. 9. in which the sentence spoken of must either bee fallible or infallible if fallible then it followes that God required the people to hearken and bee Subject unto such sentences as might bee sinfull such as they apprehended to be unjust and sinfull such as were in themselves absolutely sinfull for all these cases might possibly have hapned upon such a supposition which were blasphemy to imagine If the sentence bee to bee presumed infallible then questionlesse God might very justly require the people to bee subject to it and impose a law unalterable after the manner of the Meades and Persians that such as would not harken to it might bee condemned to dye as one that did presumptuously Doe but prevaile then with your Presbyters in cortesie to discover to us some gleanings of their Prophetick spirit or let us see what signes and wonders God is pleased to do by their mediation more then by other mens and then whosoever will not yeeld a proportionable honour and obedience to them for my part let Artaxarxes his decree be put in execution against him whether it be to imprisonment confiscation of goods banishment or death Ezra 7. 26. In the mean time if there bee any thing of Godlinesse or understanding of a man in you dispence with such as cannot make Idolls fall downe and worship them Pag. 30 sayes the Civil Magistrate is Subiect in a Spirituall way unto the Church and that the Church is subiect to the Civill Magistrate in a Civill way But what if these different Judicatiories will not bee subject to each other in their respective spher's What if the Civill Magistrate will not learne Gods will by the Ministers of the Church as AS sayes hee must Pag. 30. What if hee become Heretical Schismaticall â— must heâ— not bee proceeded against by the utmost of Church censures to wit excommunication And if hee bee not worthy to remaine in the Church must hee not by AS his doctrine bee turned out or cut off from the Civill State But some perhaps will be so Court affected as to say If the Magistrate will be so who can help it wâ—â— must suffer what we cannot remedie 'T is true we must but pag 166. you say that whatsoever the Ecclesiasticall Senate or Presbyterie is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the Church that the Civill Magistrate or Senate it bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the State since he is a nurse of the State and keeper of the two Tables and since whatsoever power the Civill Magistrates have is derived from the people Who sayes there is no remedie against a Magistrate thus offending Are not both Houses of Parliament are not millions of the people enough to do justice in such a case But what if the Civill Magistrate be without not of the Church can you not with Paul be contented that God should judge him 1 Cor. 5 13. If you say 't is now too late to make such a querie and that he was admitted into the Church by baptisme so long since will he not think you repent his Baptisme and coâ—â— such little thanks as promised submission for him unto the Church without his order and consent Nay will he not plead non-age you know there are many good lawes provided for relieving of the Pupillage in money matters Having then thus mâ—â—acled the Civil Magistrate whilst he was in swadling cloutes you say he must now be subject to the Church and that if he be once turn'd out of the Church he must likewise be turn'd out of the Civil State Is not this the Popish doctrin of lâ—â—â—ing Subjects from their obedience to Prince or Parliament Are we thus leap't out of the Popish frying-pan into the midst of Presbyterian firebrands But I dare say youâ—â—â— stagger deny the words beeing laid unto your charge the truth is I find by this discourse that you haue a trecherous memory which hath led you into such a company of unreconcileable contradictions far worse than many theeves and harlots but if your heart or understanding had been better than your memory this doctrin had never issued Turn then to pâ— 166 where you say that whatsoever the Presbytery may not tolerate in the Church the Civil Magistrate must not tolerate in the State then turn to p. 179 where you say that al power is Originally in the people which makes them the supremest Magistrate of al above both King Parliament as King Parliament are above other inferiour and subordinate Magistrates Now if you know how to spel put these together this Popish doctrin besides others will clearly arise from thence to wit that if Primes and Magistrates become Hereticks they may be excommunicated if excommunicated the
subjects are freed from their obedience to them and the people which having al power in themselves originally become the supremest Magistrate of al are bound to cut them off from the Civill State whether they be Kings or Parliaments But let us beware of such Infernal tenets according unto which there would be found no safety neither for Prince nor Parliament but each of them and everie body else all alike be forced to be of whatsoever religion shall by most voyces in a Consistorie or Synod be thought to be the true one which is too great a hazard or else be deemed to doe presumptuously and so loose their lives But ch. 3. you say if the Church be corrupt and the Church Officers negligent in their charge and will not reforme it the Civill Magistrate may command yea compell them to do it or if they will not he may extraordinarily do it himselfe Good now who shall here reach the Civil Magistrate whether the Church be corruptor no At what time the Church Officers be negligent in their charge not willing to reforme and when they oppresse any man with Ecclesiasticall censures If you say the Civil Magistrate himselfe may see it by bringing them to the rule of Gods word do you not contradict your selfe in page 30. and elsewhere saying the Civil Magistrate must learn Gods will by the Ministers who are Gods Ambassadours sent unto him is it possible to reconcile the Civil Magistrate unto the spirituall office-bearers in such a case as this nay is it ever possible for AS to make his atonement with this present Assembly for frustrating so many yeares endeavours as they are like to make of it in saying the Civil Magistrate hath power not to admit the true Church to reject it yea when it is received or approved and confirmed by his secular and Civil authority to reject it and exile it Ibid which yet is true enough but do you think the Synod would have taken soe great paines and our Scotch brethren have sacrificed so much of their own blood if even at best it should have been so hazardous whether ever their Presbyterian discipline should be received or no or when received rest in â—uch dayly danger to bee turned out againe with shame Is it not an eaâ—â—y matter for the Civil Magistrate to say these Presbyterian Churches are growne corrupt their way of government was never Apostolical and good they Tyrannize over their brethren insted of feeding them aiming at no Reformation soe much as to get themselves into the fattest Benifices and so banish them into America or some worse place Woe would it have beene for any Independent to have beene knowne to publish such Theologie such Heresie Page 47. You say How be it the Church compell men not by externall viâ—lâ—â—ce to subscribe contrary to their judgements yet the Civil Magistrate after sufficient conviction may compell you to subscribe or to be gon c. The Church you say compels not externally but the Civil Magistrate may But whence hath the Civil Magistrate this power in Church affaires or why may not the Church use the Civil externall armes in Church matters rather then the Civil Magistrate should eâ—terpose with his owne weapons in Church affaires Is it not all one think wee in the sight of God for Church-men Church Officers themselves to hang such a one whom they deeme a Heretick as to set a crosse a gallowes a marke upon him out of a tacit compact with the Civil Magistrate to hang him whensoever or wheresoever He should meet with him If a combination of any people should thus compasse the death of any man would they not all equally bee found guiltie shall a politick reservation of Popish Canon or Civil law to keepe the Clergie from the peoples odium thus delud all Christians to the end of the world may Church-men connive approve teach and applaud the Civil Magistrate in punishing whosoever they suppose to be Hereticks by imprisonment or death and not as innocently as Christianly bee executioners themselves Perhaps they will say they have no authority nor call to become executioners to banish imprison or put to death and yet they have as good a call as to approve it in the Civil Magistrate but this is not the poynt wee stand upon What if a Towne or Principality were giuen unto a company of Presbyterian Clergie-men I cannot think they will refuse it would they in such a case imprison banish or cause Hereticks to die in this their Principality If they say as the Pope in the same case as Pilate when he crucifide Iesus and Bishop Bâ—nner whilst he made so many Protestane Martyrs they may not wash their hands in the blood of Hereticks I reply neither in the blood of Civil delinquents by the selfe same principle of theirs If they referre such judicature and executing of Spirituall or Civil Offenders unto Laymen to be their deputies within this Principality of theirs I answere that this is but a Popish euaâ—ion and such blood being shed by their authority or approbation must be accounted for by them as if they themselves had sat upon the Bench passed sentence and beene executioners If Hereticks were punishable by death as murderers and Traitors I know no cause but that Clergie-men if neede were might as actually assist at execution of the one as of the other But if any man should expect my opinion of what these Presbyterian Clergie-men may doe upon the proffer of such a Principality I confesse the refusall thereof might seem a verie great degree of Evangelicall perfection and the excessive care and travel which is required to govern it though by a substitute are altogether inconsistent with the ministerie of the Gospel but to interpret the passing sentence and execution of death by such Deputies or their Officers to be so intirely the peculiar acts of such Deputies only as that the said Presbyterian Clergie-men from whom the jurisdiction is derived had not even as great a share therein as if they had beene present upon the bench is a meere Popish invention and delusion Our Saviour and his Apostles did neither tell the Magistrates that then were that it concerned them so much more to become Christians that they might compel their Subjects to be so too nor yet gave the Christians instructions or left upon record any such order or warrant that when ever the Magistrate did become Christian they might constraine the people to Christianity c. But in the same Pag. 74. you graunt these Spiritual Delinquents must be first sufficiently convinced alleadging that after a sufficient conviction it is morally and should be supposed that they know the truth or should know it or if they know it not that nothing can have blâ—dered them but their owne pertinaciousnes which cannot excuse but rather aggravates their â—in But what I pray or how much do you call sufficiently convinced How can any one do otherwise than yeeld unto whatsoever you have convinced him of
of Parliament a Civil law declaring heresie or any different from the State opinions such as for the present are in fashion to be censurable by the Civil power I answer not without all due respect unto the lawes and such as made them that if there be any distinction betwixt a Church State and a Civil State which all Christians â—itherto acknowledged the enacting Civil lawes to punish spiritual offences is not only a Soloecisme an improprietie in State but an incroaching on the Churches power a prophaning of the Keyes and injurious to the offender who by this meanes is punished both beyond the degree and nature of his offence But if you remember as I put you in mind of before pag. 1â—â— you say Whatsoever the Ecclesiastical Senate or Presbyterie is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the Church that the Civil Magistrate is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the State But if this bee true must not the Civil Magistrate joyne with the Ecclesiastial in judging of Heresie Schisme and all Church offences Or if forsooth your meaning be the Presbyterial Officials shall have the preheminence and passe their verdict first Are not the Civil Powers obliged to passe the like implicitly to do the same good justice whether it bee right or wrong or else set at large to give a different judgment and so ipsâ— factâ— condemne your doctrin as arrogant and Heretical Oh that you would but baâ—e us these impertinencies these inconsistencies how many fair sheetes of paper would it have saved from fowling But whereas you enthraule the Magistrate hereunto as Nursing-Fathers and Mothers you may as well engage your Nurse to knock all children on the head because they speake not so readily or plainly as your owne though sublimated extracted from Mercuries braine And yet this rule of yours needs not bee so stout to admit of no exceptions no qualifications since the off-spring of Fornication or adultrie are forward Imps and forwardnes a character of such Imps though otherwise undiscovered to the world But for the text in Esa. 4â— 23. which propheside that the Kingâ— of the Gentiles should become Nursing Fathers and their Queens Nursing Mothers unto the Church mean you by their fighting for it By their cruel persecuting or tormenting Christians 'T is clearly by submitting themselves unto the Churches spiritual yoake by whose example their subjects might bee encouraged to do the like of their owne free accord and Godly disposition without the least cullour of compulsion in that the Blessed spirit in the end of the same verse brings for a reason of these Kings and Queens administring to the Church That they shall not be ashamed that waite for him Now there would want a just capacity in them of being ashamed for waiting on the Church or on Christ the Head thereof if they were constrayned to wait Pag. 60. You say an Ecclesiastical judicatore is nothing else but a certain nâ—mber of men endowed with an authoritive power according to Gods word to judge of Church â—usinesses according to Gods glorie and the weak of the Church or in a word the representative Church of one Parish â—lâ—sse Province Nation or of all the world But where meet you with any such Chimera of an Ecclesiastical Indicatorie in all the word of God Where find you such an authoritive power as is by you insinuated Where find you that it would be either for Gods glorie or the Churches weale it should be so and last of all Where find you that a certain nomber of Ecclesiasticall men may be the Representative Church of the whole world Though you rack and torture the 15th and all other Acts of the Apostles by all the Ecclesiasticall judicatories and Authoritative Powers which you can muster up you will never bee able to get so much as a distinguishable Eccho from them to this purpose However please your owne imagination erect as many Consistorial Babels as you will hammer out what Decrees your selves think good and if you can with a good conscience tell us wee may do well if wee observe them But goe no farther since the Church of Jerusalem which you will I beleeve acknowledge your only President for Assemblies did noe more and yet there were present there Apostles inspired men whereas if there be any thing else in the very best of your Ecclesiasticall Judicatories as you call them besides such infirmities aâ— are common to you with any other nomber of your brethren 't is more than all the world beleeves and therefore blame them not if they cannot run â—udwink'd with you into Limbo Purgatorie or Hell since the way to heaven is too straight for men of implicit faith blind zeale orignorant devotion which are the best fruites your Presbyterian Disciplin can produce to light upon And besides the manifold weighty exceptions which have been made already and may yet bee farther multiplide to prove that to bee no Synod or Ecclesiastical Judicatorie in Act. 15. Tell mee good Sir whether if they will make that a President the Assembly which sits now at Westminster may not according to the same grounds send their Synodal Decrees into Germany France Spaine Italie and other pretended Christian Countries as well as they of Jerusalem did into Syrio Cilicia who had noe Râ—presentatives in Jerusalem that we heare of at the making of those Decrees and by consequence any certain nomber of men who have but confidence â—nough and the Civil sword to fight for them else they will bee thought to say and do aâ— little to the purpose as their neighbours may take upon them to be an Ecclesiastical Judicature the Representative Church and so condemne the whole world into spirituall captivity because their phansies tell them it is for Gods glory and the Churches weale it should bee so But suppose that Antioch Syria and Cilicia were willing to receive and yeeld obedience unto the Decrees which were made by the Church of Jerusalem where there were present inspired Apostles must this needs oblige all other Churches now to do the same towards such as have no more infallibility than their brethren especially whether they will or no were not this to hang the Christian libertie of the whole Church Militant upon the arbitrary proceedings of some few perticular congregations only Good Sir consider of it To the exceptions which are justly alledged against the peremptorinesse of some Ecclesiastical Synods and Assemblies which think they may Parallel their own decisious with those of the Apostolical Church of Jerusalem Act. 15. which were infallibly certaine of the Holy Ghosts Assistance or else might possibly have erred and consequently seduced all Christians unto the end of the world which would bee blasphemy of the greatest magnitude to imagine You aske wherefore may not every perticular Minister say it seemeth good to the Holy Ghost and me To which I answer that your Ministers and you too may bee rash in saying so as you are in other matters Who can
A SHORT ANSWER To A. S. ALIAS ADAM STEWART'S Second part of his overgrown Duply to the two Brethren Together with Certaine difficult questions easily answered All which A. Stewart is desired to consider of without replying unlesse it be to purpose A. Steuart in his second part of his Duply to the two Brethren page 166. The Civill Magistrate cannot bee Orthodox and tollerate a new Sect hee meanes Independencie and may as well say Presbytery unles hee tollerate us to beleeve that hee is either corrupted by moneys or some other waye so to doe Proverb 12. 13. The wicked is snared by the trasgression of his lips but the iust shall come out of trouble Printed in the Yeare 1644. THREE OF A STEVART'S CONCLVSIONS with their PARALELLS which are added for better explanation of them their contradicting of themselves and their rebellious Doctrine CONCLUSION 1. Pag. 105. The Supreame Ecclesiasticall Judicature itselfe may fear that if they judge any thing amisse their judgements will not bee approved and put in execution in perticular Churches and in all probability they are like to bee crossed iust as much as Independents aske for by this ensuing Paralell PARALELL Particular Churches or Congregations may examin the iudgements of the supreme Ecclesiastical Iudicature and if they find them to bee amisse they may refuse to put them in execution they may crosse them CONCLVSION 2. Pag. 30. The Civil Magistrate is subject in a spirituall way unto the Church Hee must learne Gods will by the Ministers of the Church who are Gods Ambassadours sent to him Hee must bee subject unto Ecclesiasticall Censures CONCLVSION 3. Pag. 166. Whatsoever the Ecclesiasticall Senate or Presbiterie is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the Church That the Civil Magistrate is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the State Neither is the Civil Magistrate lesse bound to put it out of the State than the Presbyterie is to put it out of the Church Exquisite Poperie Pestilent Doctrine as appeares yet more clearely by this following Paralell PARALELL If the Presbytery shall think good to excommunicate King or Parliament the Civil Magistrate the people in whom the Soveraign power residâ—s originally pag. 167. is absolved from all obedience and bound to put them out of the Civil State A TAST OF A. STEVART'S EXTRAVAGANCIES and contradictions in the second part of his Duply to the two Brethren Page 13. The Civill Magistrate even as Christian has power not to admit the true Religion to reject it yea when it is receaved or approved and confirmed by his secular and Civill authority to reject it and exile it If the Church bee corrupt and Church Officers negligent in their charge and will not reforme it as the Magistrate thinks good hee may command yea compell them to do it When the Church is reformed hee may command them when they are negligent to bee diligent in their charge If hee conceave they oppres any man in their Ecclesiastical judgements and censures against the lawes of the Kingdome hee may desire them yea command them to reverse their judgements and in case they reforme them not againe command them yea compel them by his Civill power to give him satisfaction according to the lawes of the Kingdome if hee conceave they derogate not from the lawes of God which neither Popish nor Turkish Magistrates will acknowledge though their lawes bee never so contrary to the word of God Page 166. The Civill Magistrate if hee follow Gods word cannot grant a tolleration of Independent Churches without consent of the Church if hee judge it is not corrupted as if the Church being corrupted the Magistrate may bee corrupt too and tolerate what hee will Page 47. How be it The Church compel not to subscribe yet the Civill Magistrate after sufficient conviction may compell to subscribe or to begon Pag. 179. What power hath the King or Parliament to intrude and force upon the Kingdome new religions or a tolleration of all Sects the Parliament assume no such power unto it selfe A short Answer to A. S. alias Adam Stewarts second part of his overgrown Duply to the two Brethren SIr Had you concealed your selfe under the two first letters of your name all the A. S'es in Towne and Country would never have beene able to cleare themselves for what you make but words of however I may not adde a tittle in commendation of you for Preamble to this Pamphlet as you tell us and is no more then requisite to justifie your own Epistle is ordinary with writers in dedication of their bookes least I bee put to a more shamefull recantation then A. S. was and that for nothing but what charitie as himselfe confesses induced him to acknowledge in behalfe of the Apologists Give mee leave then to observe first that pag. 21. 23. you say Idolatry is a sin against the second Commandment Juris naturalis perpetui insinuating that the power and duty of punishing both Idolatrie and Heresie is such also If so then it obliges all Nations of the world and consequently supposes them capable to judge of all manner of Idolatrie and Heresie which we see to bee notoriously false and that besides the confounding Ecclesiasticall with Civil power whilest one State punishes this or that for Heresie it cannot possibly bee otherwise since they are not onely different but diametrically opposite in profession but that another must canonize it for a sacred truth secondly if States and Powers must punish Hereticks they are bound to punish those for such onely who in their owne judgements are such and if you will engage States in punishing of Hereticks and they punish onely such as they find themselves obliged to punish in their own consciences and understandings How can you according to your doctrine blame them for punishing Gods dearest children instead of Hereticks since they tooke them to bee Hereticks and thought they had done God and you good service to punish them If wee may not suffer Hereticks to live amongst us then is the Parliament to blame for suffering German French Spanish and Portugal Papists or Dutch Brownists and Anabaptists to live here amonst us though as Marchants onely for a time since their marchandizing gives them greater advantage of working people to their opinions by the respective civil conveniences and benefits which they bring both to the whole Nation in generall and to some in particular nay the very Ambassadours of what States or Potentates soever of different religions ought not to bee permitted to reside Ledgers amongst us under any pretence if this doctrine bee Evangelicall So likewise may not wee under pretext of marchandize live in Turkish Popish Lutheran or other Countreys differing from us in religion travel into such parts for fashion sake as is usuall nor keepe Ambassadours there nor bee by forrain States permitted to remain amongst them if we would or on any termes joine with such in wedlock Man may by no meanes dispence herewith if the command
How can you bee infallibly assured that a man â—s sufficiently convinced if he himselfe denyes it How know you which is Gods â—â—oure for convincing of a man May not you likewise possibly interpret a dulnesse of apprehension in him or your owne want of truly and well informing him to bee his obstinate wilfull rejecting of the truth Are there not above 24 degrees of capacity and understanding between some men and shall such whom God and Nature have made more dull or lesse ingenious in judging of Presbyterian Discipline or Doctrin be condemned to banishment or death for these defects of Nature beleeving or discoursing about matters of beleefe or but opinion only Such you say the Civil Magistrate may compel to subscribe against their conscience or to bee gon But who gives the Civil Magistrate this authoritie Or how comes hee to know or understand them to bee Hereticks The Presbyterian Clergie-men I hope will be no more informers than executioners I am sure in most of such as are aleadged to bee Christian Countryes the Informer is counted more infamous than the Executioner because the one does all the busines for the most part in darknesse and under board whereas the other exposes his actions to the publick view But why may not Church Officers themselves as well hang or cut the throat of such a Heretick whom they have prepared and designed for the shambles of the Civil Magistrats execution by their excommunicating of him If the putting him to death were just they need not use any Machivillian Stratagem to prevent the peoples censuring them of cruelty or make so nice to â—owle their fingers with the blood of such as they put to death deservedly The Levites when Moses required them everie man to kill his Son his brother companion and his neighbour were not so scrupulous Exod. 32 27. 28. 29. And why may not the Civil Magistrate as well excommunicate as banish or otherwise punish any Hereticks Doe not all punishments inflicted for spiritual offences equally become spiritual Or is it not necessary they should be spiritual to work a Spiritual effect doubtlesse they bee or ought to be so and if hanging of a spiritual offender bee as lawfull as excommunicating of him surely both the Civil Magistrate and the Presbyterian Church Officers may execute him both alike Please then to satisfie me concerning these three Queries 1. By what authoritie does the Civil Magistrate punish a Heretick 2. What is it he punishes him for 3. And Thirdly Vpon what â—â—â—all and inditement If the few perticular warrants upon special occasion for punishing some certain Idolaters expressy poynted it in the old Testament obliged all Magistrates then and ever since to do the like you must condemne the greatest part of Godly Magistrates for omitting it and if you wil haâ—â— extraordinary 〈◊〉 to â—â—gage thâ—â— there unto upon all ordinary 〈◊〉 you must inâ—er that 〈◊〉 the People of the land who have entered into the laâ—e solemne League and Covenant are bound with one accord to assault cut the throats of al the Papists they should meet withall without any farther proces or impeachment just as the Israelites served Mattan Bâ—als priest after that jehoida had made a covenant between the Lord the King and the people 2. King 11. 17. 18. Secondly For what cause does the Civil Magistrate punish this Church Offender were it for Civil delinquency then is he no longer a meer heretick a bare Church offender the Church would have no jurisdiction to punish him for such Civil delinquency But that you may see it was for spiritual for Church offences for which he is unjustly banished imprisoned or put to deaâ—h it wil appear upon the third Query or Inquiry that the Civil Magistâ—ate proceeds against him after an implicit manner by passing sentence by putting him to death upon the Church triall and inditement only or else arraignes him the second time for the selfe same offence a double injurie and injustice which besides being spiritual the Civil Magistrate has no cognizance is no competent Judge thereof nor can take upon himselfe any such authority without confounding the Ecclesiasticall Judicature with the Civil But I must trouble your patience a little longer with an other touch upon this string this whipcord which you graunt the Magistrate to scourge your Brethren withal in confidence your selves for this benevolence shall scape scotfree and passe for white boyes whatever offences you commit this no doubt wil expiate them all and make attonement for them though they be never so many You say the Civil Magistrate may compel men of different opinions to subscribe or to be gon nay you say the Civil Magistrate may command and compel a corrupted Church and negligent Church Officers into a Reformation and that even when they are Reformed hee may command and compel them by his Civil power to give satisfaction and reverse such Ecclesiasticall censures and judgements as the Civil Magistrate shall apprehend to bee oppressing unto any man or contrary to the Civil lawes Tell me is this power which you present the Civil Magistrate withall in spirituall matters a lesser lesse spiritual or efficacious power than what you reserve as peculiar to the Church If it bee lesse the Civil Magistrate surely is much beholding to you that you are so bountifull to him of such scrapps that you will set him â— work as the Egyptian Task-master did the Israelites Exo. 5. 18. with such leavings and shredds of discipline and yet expect hee should doe that for you which all your broad sides and batteries of Decrees Ordnance and Canons of Excommunication c. could not effect And why I pray may not the Church her selfe make use of small shot as well as greater But if you meane really side publica and this power which you attribute to the Civil Magistrate concerning Spiritual Offenders and offences be greater more Spiritual and efficacious to win and gain men unto true piety and Godlinesse by fining banishing imprisonment or death Can you not give him in the vantage Can you not let him have the lesser of Excommunication and other Ceremonious in comparison of Civil Coercive Censures Briefly then if this power which you give the Civil Magistrate about the Church bee a toy or trifle bate it him and let not so many thousand Indâ—pendents your Brethren be longer scandalized thereat But if you insist still to make it of so great concernment and necessity teaching the people that the Civil Magistrate must likewise bee a terrour to spiritual offenders assure your selfe that both Magistrate and People will likely ere long see the injustice and absurdity of having two Magistrates to punish one offender for one fault which also may disagree may possibly contradict each other in their sentences resolving through the corrupted principles which you instil that the Civil Magistrate has power and understanding sufficient to discipline and govern both Church and State But perhaps you 'l say there is an Act
safely betake himself to that wherein he apprehends more evidence of the two and though it prove the wrong yet God may accept of his indeavours and good intension who did not blame Isaack for thus blessing Jacob through an errour who yet since he had suspition of him by his voice might have satisfyde himselfe concerning him had he but felt the other parts of his body which were not counterfetted Paul likewise although he was a great blasphemer and Persecuter 1. Tim. 1. 13. Act. 26. 9. 10. 11. Yet he said of himselfe that hee had lived in all good conscience before God untill that day Act. 23. 1. It is a very smale thing that I should bee judged of mans judgement I judge not my selfe for I know nothing by my selfe 1. Cor. 4. 3. 4. and Rom. 14. 6. It is said Hee that regardeth a day regardeth it to the Lord and hee that regardeth not the day unto the Lord he doth not regard it Hee that eateth eateth to the Lord for he giveth God thanks and hee that eateth not to the Lord he eateth not and giveth God thanks From all which way he gathered that a good meaning and intention is greatly excusable before God though it were in an erroneous way of fearing him For all which respects the Presbyterians do not only show themselves injurious in distip â—â—ing and ruling over their brethren over whom they have no power being Freemen Free-Christians equall to themselves but sacriledgious to Gods bountifulnesse and long suffering who like the Scribes Pharises Hypocrites lay heavie burthens upon others but they themselves will not put a finger to Luk. 11. 46. who streighten if not quite dam up the way to heaven not suffering others to enter nor yet goe in themselves Math. 23. 13. Good now let us fast or feast let us observe Holy-dayes or not and so for other matters according as Gods spirit shall guide us thereunto and not the Spirit of a Presbyterie unlesse wee could see more in it than in our own Pag. 105. You say The supreame Church Iudicatorie may feare that if they judge any thing amisse their judgments will not be approved and put in Execution with perticular Churches and in all human probability they are like to be crossed Pray demur a little and consider whether in these few lines you have not utterly demolished that mighty but imaginary Babel of unlimmited authoritative Jurisdiction which you had raised unto your Classical Presbyteries or Superlative Ecclesiastical Assemblies Doe you not here of your own accord acknowledge that in some cases i. e. If they judge any thing amisse the Supreme Church Judioature it selfe may feare â—er judgements will not be approved and put in execution so much as in perticular congregations yea and that in all humane probability they are like to be crossed Since then you graunt your Synods and highest Church Assemblies may judge amisse and that in such cases perticular Churches may refuse to yeeld obedience will it not follow by undenyable consequence that such perticular Churches must have Power to examin and even judge the judgements of such Assemblies according to their owne reasons and understandings And that whatsoever shall appeare to bee decreed or ordered amisse by such Ecclesiastical Assemblies according to the light of their own reason and understanding which God has given them and not to be submitted unto with a good conscience ought and must not be put in execution by perticular congregations This is your owne doctrin sometimes though unawares For even on the top of the next page 109. where you bring M. S. enquiring what should be done in case an Oecumenical or General Counsel erre you say you wil returne him answer when hee tells you what must bee done in case the Parliament should erre or if the great Sanedrin of the Old Testament or the Councel of Jerusalem had erred and yet you might remember to have objected thrice in this frivolous discourse of yours upon the like occasion that Quaestio non solvit quâ—stionem But do you not perceive a little spirit of perversenes in your selfe that you can thus prevaricate thus play at fast and loose Did you not just now confesse oh the power of truth That if the very supreme Church Judicature should judge amisse shee may feare her judgement will not be approved and put in execution by perticular congregations And doe you so soone boggle at the same Querie afterwards Will not this smal pittance of ingenuity reconcile you how fierce soever unto the Independents Either then recant this and such other passages or stand to them and burn that confused volumne of Sophistical distinctions and meere contradictions Pag. 170. 171. You say the example of the Protestants in France suing for a toleration of their Religion serves nothing towards the obtaining the like for Independents in England But why pray so Magisteriall and peremptory Have not the Independents fought for the Parliament against the Cavaleers Did they not refuse to joyn with the Cavaliers in fighting against the Scots Your Presbyterian Disciplin had scarce been setled in Scotland by Civil and Ecclesiastical authority which you so much boast of in page 160. if Independents had not done that for you which you were not able to do for your selves And doe you thus require them Was there not the same reason for the Scots some few yeares since to have submitted themselves unto the English service-booke then adored by such an English uniformity and sent yea attempted to bee imposed upon them by the Ecclesiastical authority of England as that the English and Irish two numerous and renowned Nations must now be subjugated by fire and sword unto a Scotch Directory Surely if there be a God in Heaven or any conscientiousnesse on earth it will never bee or never long endure nescis quid serus vesper trabat you say the Protestants of France were compelled to idolatry and to bee actors in the damnation of their owne soules against the light of their consciences And what if it be said the Presbyterians professe and practise the same against the Independents against all that differ from them barely in opinion All the principles which concerne coercive Discipline in about or for the Church are common both to Papists and Presbyterians Insted of arguments and reason Will you not say 't is false foolish fond idle ignorant childish currish contradictorie impertinent non sence nothing but wind and words of Goodwin page 169. c. How long will this Great Goliah of the Presbyterians thus boast himselfe How long will the braying of this fowle mouth'd AS disquiet the people of God Pack up your pedlâ—rs budget of such absurd distinctions abominable contradictions unsufferable tautalogies to say no worse and be gon even anywhere that we may be quit of you speake or write to instruction or edifying hereafter or else hold your peace for shame of God and men But do you not know that it shall be more tolerable for Sodom
controvesie it may bee said in behalfe of Independents that unlesse differing and erroneous opinions bee tolerated the most orthodox and rectified are equally Subject to bee persecuted On the other side Presbyterians say that the permitting differing opinions in a State is to open a flood-gate to all manner of Heresies and Schysmes What if wee did suppose these to bee the two Great Rocks of offence which in some sense were no otherwise than Scylla and Charibdis one of which you could not avoide without adhering unto the other Does it not remaine then that wee should consider which of them is accompained with the greatest inconveniences The latter presupposes a possibilitie of entrance unto all Heresies the former concludes a certainty of with-holding a great measure of Truth and even a possibility of keeping out the whole Truth Now this truth is like God himself even verie God himselfe invallewable we may not hazard the least attom the smalest proportion thereof for al other possibilities or impossibilities whatsoever What Shall we put our selves into such a condition that if we be in an errour it shall be impossible for us to get out of it againe unlesse the whole Civil State the men of war the world doe see it as clearely as our selves That if as yet wee have but some degrees of truth and knowledge it shall be impossible for us to attain to greater That though we were in possession of the true Religion wee should bee liable to have it taken from us by everie sharper Civil sword than our owne This is your Doctrin page 13. where you say the Civil Mgistrate though Christian has power to admit Christian Religion or when admitted to exile it afterwards but God keepe such Presbyterian Principles from farther taking root in England But if King and Parliament may not force a new religion or Sect suppose Presbyterian upon the Kingdome much lesse can the Synod which neither has nor yet pretends as is alleadged to use the materiall sword And if for matters of religion all power originally is in Christ as you sometimes acknowledge page 179. How can King Parliament or Synod wrest it from him Nay what thinke you Is it not secondarily in the people as well as Civil power which you affirme in the same page And so doubtlesse is spiritual power unlesse you will make God to have provided mankind better of a safegard or libertie to defend their bodies than their soules If then the spirituall power be so inherently in the people next under Christ as that they cannot so well renounce and part from it in many respects by what they may of Civil how can it be thought by any one that the King Parliament or Synod though never so much importun'd by a thousand such AS ses should goe about to settle a Nâ—w Presbyterian Scotch Government with an intention to force a conformity of the whole Kingdome three quarters whereof cannot as yet be thought to submit unto it willingly or for conscience sake Page 180. and elsewhere you advise the Independents to quit their fat Benefices but Presbyterian know how to quit the leane Benefices without your counsel And where doe you find the Independents in such fat Benefices What if you cannot find one of them in a fat Benefice Will you not say good cause why because the Presbyterians would quickly heave them out and get themselves â—n If they find any fatter than an other and bee so liquorish If they regard neither flock nor the Great shepheard of the flock Christ Jesus but with Esaâ—h or Judas prefer 30. pence or a fat Benefice before them both let them at least carry it more cauâ—eloâ—sly and not â—â—â— skipping so from one fat Benefice or Lecture unto a fatter that all the world cry shame of them I need not name them they are knowne to everie bodie but themselves But prithee A. S tell mee do'st thou not intend this as a pious plot and Master-peece of thine to accuse the Independents of fat Benefices that they may bee provok'd to vindicate themselves by discovering who they were amongst the Presbyterian Rabbies that solicited so actively and dextrously obtaining such an Ordnance for Tithes as all the subtle inventionâ— of Antichristian Bishops could never get the like Who they were that had more than a finger in helping sundrie Ministers out of their Livings partly for not paying the twentyeth part and other taxes and so soone as Presbyterians had filld all Benefices and Lectures to move that Ministers might then bee totally freed from all manner of â—essmentâ— and is it not fitting it should bee so think you That they should set and keepe the Kingdome on â— fire in â— desparate bloody Civil warre and yet bee totally exempted from contributing towards quenching towards obtaining of a blessed peace I know these Heathenish Jewish Popish notions of Tythes Offerings and 〈…〉 ons were long since abominated and abolished amongst our Scottish Brethren And A. S. does well in not flattering the English Presbyterians therein lest Independents should be farther scandaliz'd at him who it is well knowne are not guilty of such Siâ—oniâ— they 〈…〉 bargaine of the Ministerie of the Gospel as if it were an unholy thing or themselves like so many Coblers or Shoe-makers to prostitute their labours to them that proffer most they compel noe man to buy of them whether they will or no much lesse at what price they themselves will what God requires to be given for nothing Esa. 55. 1. 2 They force no man to pay for that he never had as Presbyterians doe such as cannot with a good conscience communicate with them in their ordinances as if a Taylâ—r or Hatter should wrench your money from you though you lik'd not would not have his wares his service who will may see the Bloody Tenet and Iohn Baptist concerning tythes more largely Pag. 181. You say the power of the Ministerie or Ecclesiastical power is able and sufficient to beat down all fin spiritually But pray tell me can fin be sin politically and not be fin spiritually Now if Ecclesiasticall power can beat down sin spiritually as you acknowledge Will it not follow that fin so beaten down spiritually ceases to bee sin at all either spiritually or politically and consequently no neede of Civil power to punish it But to be briefe as the Title promised for me Our Saviour bids us do as we would be done to that is Love our Neighbours as our selves on which commandment hangs the Law and Prophets Math. 7. 12. and 22. 39. 40. and Paul tels us that Love is the fulfilling of the whole Law Rom. 13 10. Nay our Saviour would not have us dare to aske forgivenesse of our heavenly Father otherwise than as we forgive our Brethren Math. 6. 12. 14. 15. Now amongst all sorts of transgressours there is no one offendeth so highly so undoubtedly against this law of loving his neighbour as himselfe or doing as hee would bee done to as he that