remitted and whose soever sins ye retain they are retained As likewise to the Precept to Saint Iames Confess your sins one to another Which Texts have been alwayes interpreted by the Holy Fathers in the same sense The universal Practice likewise of the Iewish Synagogue conformable hereto adds a considerable weight to induce us to a perswasion that it is by Divine Institution For how can it be imagined that by any humane invention a Duty so burthensom to flesh and blood and to our Natural Pride could have been introduced generally into the Church without sparing the awfull Majesty of Kings and Modesty of Queens by an unarmed Ecclesiastical Power the Pope himself also owing such Submission to a simple Priest §. 79. The ground of the necessity of this Sacrament is because those who by Baptism having submitted themselves to the Churches Authority afterwards do violate the Laws of the Gospel ought to undergo the judgment of the same Church in the Tribunal of Penance where she exercises the Power given her of remitting and retaining sins Now such judgment is esteemed as given by Iesus Christ himself by whom and in whose place his Priests are appointed Iudges It is this invisible High Priest who after Confession Sorrow and Satisfaction interiourly absolves the Penitent whilst the Priest exercises the exteriour Ministery as a Subordinate Iudge without whose concurrence Sins shall not be remitted §. 80. As for Satisfactions imposed after Confessions they according to the Churches expression regard only Temporal Pains due to our Sins She does not teach that we can satisfie God for the guilt even of Venial Sins or for Eternal Pains Moreover she declares that these Satisfactions are accepted of God through the Merits of Christ and that they do no way obscure the benefit of Christs death For Christ by his death has so satisfied for our sins that it is Gods pleasure his satisfaction should not produce its full effects till it be by us particularly applyed in the use of his Sacraments and works worthy of Penance to which Works his Merits being linked and not otherwise our Satisfactions will be accepted by him through his pure Grace and Mercy The Lutherans who seem so only to rely on Christs Passion for the remission of their Sins doubt not yet to profess that a previous Faith is necessary thereto for such as are come to the age of discretion and Baptism for Infants The difference then between us is that they pretend to be justified by a Dead Faith and we by a Living Now therefore advise with your self whether you would forsake Gods Church rather then submit your self to a Duty without which that eminent Priviledge given by our Lord to his Ministers for the general good of his people of remitting Sins becomes vain and of no effect Prot. I will seriously think on this and now expect what you will say concerning the other Articles 9. Of Indulgences §. 81. Cath. I will if you think good in the next place treat of the Point touching Indulgences by reason of its affinity to the former Prot. I leave the Method to your own choice Cath. Concerning Indulgences then the Church hath thus delivered her sense Since the Power of giving Indulgences hath been bestowed on the Church by Iesus Christ and that She hath made use of this Power divinely left her from antient times the Holy Synod teaches and commends the use of Indulgences as very beneficial to all Christian people and approved by the Authority of other Holy Synods and that they ought to be retained in the Church And denounceth Anathema against those who assert that they are unprofitable or deny that there is a Power of giving them in the Church Notwithstanding the Synod admonishes that the granting of them be done with great moderation according to the ancient and approved Custome of the Church for fear least by two great a remisness Ecclesiastical Discipline be weakned Thus we are taught by the Church And certain it is that there is not any Point of Catholic Faith which taken simply according to the Churches own expression is more evident as to the Truth of it and less offensive as to the use then is this touching Indulgences Yet after all there is not any one Point so embroyled by Controvertists disputing for and against Inferences and Interpretations made by several Schoolmen which have occasioned most horrible Scandals by abuses committed in Practise This having been the first occasion of Luthers revolting and Schism §. 82. Now forasmuch as regards the proper necessary sence of this Canon those very Schoolmen who advance the virtue of Indulgences much beyond what will be allowed by many very learned Catholics yet do acknowledge that the Church by her Decision obliges us to believe as of Faith only this viz. That only such a Power of conferring Indulgences has been left by our Lord to his Church as from ancient times has been practised and approved by former Synods intending those that are usually cited to that purpose as the first of Nicea Can. 11. of Neocaesare Can. 3. of Laodicea Can. 1. and 2. the Fourth of Carthage Cap. 75. and of Agdes Can. 6. in all which Synods we only find this that it was always lawful and usual for Bishops to remit to their Penitents some part of those Canonical Penances which were inflicted for certain crimes in case the life and laudable conversation of the Penitent did seem to deserve so great a favour or if by such indulgence they thought requisite to encourage weaker Christians in times of Persecution to suffer for the Faith Hence appears that whatsoever beyond this we read in the Catholic Writers as thouching the remission of any pane due to Sin in the judgment of God or after death in Purgatory or touching certain clauses in the Bulls of some Popes or touching the Churches Treasure consisting of the Merit of Christ alone as some or of the Merits of Saints joyned to those of Christ as others conceive c. not any of these are necessary Points of Catholic Faith Thus in effect the Catholic Church requires no more to be assented to but what is taught and practised by every Congregation of Christians upon Earth All Sects even Fanatics and Quakers denounce Censures against Delinquents Must all those Censures alwayes have their full effect Is no mercy to be extended to humble contrite Penitents Shall no difference be made between Sinners converted and those that are remorsless This is contrary to humane Nature and the practise of all mankind Therefore surely you would not forsake the Catholic Church for allowing that which all Christians esteem necessary §. 83. Prot. If this were all that the Roman Church teaches concerning Indulgences they are much to blame who condemn her But the general Practise therein contradicts you Do we not see the virtue of Indulgences extended to the other world Do we not see in the tenor of promulgated Plenary Indulgences all Sinners promised
themselves from Her but submit patiently to her Censures which she should lay upon them If her Censures were just they would have no reason to complain If unjust God would reward them for their Patience and love of Peace §. 23. They were no sooner separated but they heaped on the Church all the most despightful reproaches and Calumnies they could invent and to heighten their Criminal Schism to the uttermost they formed New Societies which they called Churches and therein established New Pastors and a New Ecclesiastical Ministry the very Sin for which God commanded the Earth to swallow Core Dathan and Abiron Amongst the Gifts which our Lord when he led captivity captive received from his Father and bestowed on his Church the principal Gift mentioned by St. Paul was his constituting therein Apostles Pastors and Teachers to continue to the end of the world by a legitimate Succession There is not the least intimation given in Scripture or Tradition that this Succession should ever be interrupted Yet as if it had quite ceased and been annulled these Reformers without any Warrant usurp a Power to take all Authority out of the hands of those to whom our Saviour had given it and to bestow it according to their own pleasure thus making a total reversement of the whole frame of Gods Church as far as lyes in their Power through the whole World If Christ himself had thus without testifying his Authority by Miracles dealt with the Iewish Synagogue he would not have expected belief nor been able to answer that Question proposed to Him By what authority dost thou these things and who gave thee this Authority Luke 20. 2. Yet all this our late Reformers have done without ever pretending to one Miracle Into whatever place they come through the whole earth they as far as their Secular power extends degrade and chase away all Bishops Priests and Pastors professing the Catholic Religion they take Authority to defame them as false Pastors and true Wolves they denounce Anathemas against them they incite their Subjects to rebel defraud and persecute them as if God had given his iron Rod into the hands of these Gladiators and conferred on them the ends of the earth for their inheritance No man takes his Power of Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction but he that is called as was Aaron Heb. 5. 4. Who called these men to the Office of Preaching and governing Christians Who invested them with such Authority If we consult their own Stories we shall find the prime Ministers in the principal Cities of France constituted and consecrated by hands of the basest sort of Tradesmen There have not been nor even now are wanting among them several sensual Priests once they had a Bishop Apostates from the Catholic Church whom they might employ in the Office of Preaching and Praying in their Synagogues and by that means make a shew that some of their Ministers were indeed Clergymen who had an ordinary Vocation But such hatred they bear to all Ecclesiastical Order that even these shall not be admitted into the Presbytery without renouncing their former ordinary Vocation and receiving their Commission by a New imposition of hands of Lay-Ministers In a word I should weary both you and my self if I should enumerate all the enormities of your first Reformation If you have a mind you may receive sufficient information in a late Book written in French the Title whereof is in English Legitimate Prejudgments against Calvinists in which the learned Author demonstrates by several titles as by what appeared exteriourly in the life of the first Reformers by want of Mission by the evidence of their being guilty of Schism by their temerity most prodigious in their presumption to establish a New Ecclesiastical Ministry by the Spirit of calumny and injustice which generally actuates them by their peculiar most monstrous Doctrines taught by them by their ridiculously impossible way of instructing their Disciples in Christian verities c. By these Marks I say he shews that they do not deserve to be admitted to an examination of their Pretended Reform'd Religion being manifestly prejudged and self condemned §. 24. Prot. But surely Sir you will not apply this to the Reformed Church of England and particularly that charge concerning the want of Lawful Pastors We have been far from making a breach in the Chain of Succession since if there be lawful Pastors in the Roman Church we have the like in the English in as much as we received our Ordinations from Rome Cath. For as much as concerns your Ordinations I will not here enter into any dispute neither indeed is it needful But this I may confidently say That since English Protestants have especially of late by many tokens shewed that they esteem Calvinists or Presbyterian Congregations to be true though not so perfect Members of Christs Church as themselves the English Church I may say justifies but however qualifies or excuses that horrible defect in them of want of Ordinations and lawful Mission and thereby involves her self in their guilt Again though it were true that the English Clergy have received their Ordinations from the Roman Catholic Church yet sure I am that Church never released them from their Canonical subjection to their Superiors particularly to their Patriarch and Supream Pastor of Gods Church She never gave them power to change the order of administring Sacraments to reverse Ordinances of Superior Councils to expel Catholic Bishops from their Sees meerly because they were Catholics In a word she never gave them authority to alter or rather destroy the whole Religion in a manner professed in England since they were first Christians If English Bishops have received their Character from Rome yet not Iurisdiction or if that also yet certain it is that the same Church which gave them Iurisdiction can also upon their demerits and exercising it contrary to her intention suspend the administration of it which suspension is no doubt implyed in her condemnation of all their Innovations To be brief the English Church challenging Ordination by lawful Succession is thereby obliged to acknowledg the Roman Church to be at least a true Member of the Catholic Church and consequently her self no such Member unless the Bishops here will confess themselves to be Anti-Catholic Bishops and yet most unreasonably pretend an Union with the Catholic Church §. 25. Prot. She does in deed acknowledg the Roman to be a Member but a corrupt Member of the Catholic Church Cath. Consider Sir I pray you that the Rule of Faith obligeth us to believe the Church of God to be Holy as well as Catholic Now if the Universal Church be Holy or uncorrupt then is every Member of it as far as in its Communion Holy and uncorrupt also Which Holiness does not regard the persons whether Governors or Subjects for in the first and best Church of all consisting of the Apostles and Disciples of our Lord only there was a Iudas and a Nicolas A Church is said
Discipline and Faith shall appear to be there also will be the Truth of Scriptures and Expositions and all Christian Traditions Si quid horum per orbem frequentat Ecclesia Amongst such things whatsoever is practised by the Church through the world to dispute whether she ought not to be imitated therein is a mark of most insolent madness Scire sufficit It is a sufficient Motive to reject from our Belief whatsoever we know to be contrary to the teaching of the Church Dicet aliquis si Divinis eloquiis It may be demanded how if both the Devil and his Disciples do make use of and apply Divine Scriptures Sentences and Promises of whom some are false Apostles others false Prophets and all of them Heretics What shall Catholic children of our Mother the Church do How shall they discern truth from falshood in interpreting Holy Scriptures Hereto we answer according as we have received from Holy and learned men before us that they must be very careful to interpret Scriptures according to the Traditions of the Universal Church and according to the Rules of Catholic Doctrine THE SECOND QUESTION BUT WHY ARE YOU A PROTESTANT §. 45 CAth. Sir Have you considered seriously on the Subject of our last Discourse Prot. Yes Cath. And have you found either in Scripture Tradition Councils or Holy Fathers any warrant to remain divided both in Doctrine and Discipline from all Churches antiently existent upon Earth and at the same time to profess notwithstanding a Belief of One Holy Catholic Church out of whose Communion there is no Salvation Prot. I freely accknowledge that I am not able to produce any considerable Quotations to confront yours Quotations I mean asserting the Authority of particular or new-erected Churches independent on others Cath. Then since it seems both Scripture Tradition Councils and Fathers have given their Testimonies against you Why are you still a Protestant §. 46. Prot. Sir I suppose you do believe I should be very glad to find out a Church to whose Authority I could think my self obliged entirely to submit mine own judgment and securely to commit my Soul to her guidance But hitherto not having been able to find such an one I must be content to stay where I am For as for the Roman Church to whose Communion alone you would invite me she appears to me so wholly depraved that I think a real Miracle would hardly draw me to joyn my self to her Communion Cath. I see Sir that you despairing to justifie your own Churches and to excuse them from Schism do seek to draw me to particular Disputes By which notwithstanding you can receive no benefit at all whatever the success of such Disputes shall be For still the unpardonable guilt of Schism will lie upon you However I will not refuse so far to comply with you Therefore tell me Wherein consists that depravation you speak of Prot. It consists in this that both her Doctrines and Discipline are framed as on purpose to comply with wordly interests and by consequence are opposed to the Spirit of Christianity Cath. How does that appear §. 47. Prot. It appears more than sufficiently in this that as the late learned Arcbishop of Spalato observes all those Points of your Belief and Practice which we condemn and for which we separate from your Church are such as manifestly have a strong influence on the satisfying either her Ambition or Covetousness Cath. Which are the Points which you suppose to comply with Ambition Prot. These which here follow 1. Your Churches assuming the Title of Catholic to her self alone with exclusion of all other Churches 2. The Popes assumed Universal Authority 3. His pretended Infallibility in determining Controversies 4. His usurped Temporal Authority 5. A Power to be acknowledged as given to Priests by consecrating the outward Symbols to make the glorified Body of our Saviour present on the Alter 6. The Offering it in Sacrifice to the Father 7. The exposing of it to mens Adoration 8. The Obligation imposed on all sinners to discover their most secret sins to Priests in Confession and to submit to satisfactions enjoyned by them 9. A proud esteem of attaining to Iustification and Salvation by your own Merits Thus your Clergy not content to invent Doctrines proper to procure their own Exaltation would instill Pride into the people also §. 48. Cath. For what Doctrines do you accuse the Roman Church of Covetousness Prot. Of this latter sort are the Romane Doctrines 1. Touching Prayer for the dead and Purgatory out of the torments whereof Souls are to be redeemed by Masses Alms c. 2. The gaining of Heaven by mony given for Indulgences 3. The Invocation of Saints 4. The worshipping of their Images and Relicks To which Pilgrimages are ordained with costly Offerings c. §. 49. Cath. This Observation made by the infamous Apostate you named if rightly considered truly seems to argue a guilt somewhere yet not in the Church but much rather in those who seperated from her For it strongly argues that since to oppose her they made choice only of those Points which regarded the Honour Authority and Wealth of the Clergy the true Motives inducing them to rebel against the Church were not any zeal for Truth or care for their Souls for they acknowledg her Orthodox as to all Points of Doctrine approved by former Heretics That therefore which stirred up their rage against her was Envy Hatred of Obedience and a thirst unquenchable to rob her of the Treasure and Possessions conferred on her by the Piety of their Holy Progenitours Now Sir tell me sincerely If you were to establish a Church would you take for your pattern that Schismatical King Ieroboam who chose Priests from the dreggs of the People or God himself who instituted a splendid Clergy Prot. It cannot indeed be denied but that contemptible needy and depending Directours of Souls will but very meanly discharge so high an Office as Christ has committed to them having made them Spiritual Iudges of Mankind and stiled them the Light of the world and the Salt of the Earth §. 50. Cath. If the first Reformers had been of your Judgment they would first have reformed in themselves their inordinate Passions But Sir if you please let us leave the judgment of mens secret intentions to Almighty God to whom alone they are open and transparent However this may with full assurance be asserted That if Sacriledge and freedom from Ecclesiastical Iurisdiction were not the only prime Motives they were and will be the prime Effects of your multiplied Reformations §. 51. Prot. I am well content to desist from enquiring into the secret thoughts of persons on either side And therefore I will henceforth consider the forementioned Points in debate between us absolutely and in themselves And so doing you must give me leave to say That this also may with full assurance be asserted that whatever Motives the Roman Church may have to
the Roman Empire to bring together so vast an Assembly from all Regions and yet Unity essential to the Church being always to be preserved which cannot be done without a supereminent Goverment always existent hence it is come to pass that the supream Bishop and Successor of the Prince of the Apostles has even from the beginning been acknowledged this supereminent Governor through all the whole Church to take care that the common established Laws former Definitions and Decisions of the Church be every where observed and professed to prevent any innovations in Doctrine and also to end Controversies among Catholics if any arise at least by silencing contentious Disputes till a General Council may further consider them by which all Schisms are prevented and also Heresies that is any Doctrines that are declared by this supream Pastor contrary to former Church-definitions perpetually crushed and lastly to judg in causis majoribus when quarrels arise among Patriarks Metropolitans c. Thus stands the case and now I appeal to your own Conscience whether you can imagine any other Expedient for preserving a general Peace and Unity in Gods Church And whether if you were appointed and also enabled to frame such a Church as was necessarily to continue always One Body Reason it self would not dictate the same Order to you Experience shews that all Divisions both in the West and East are to be ascribed to mens renouncing Obedience to this Common Governor §. 63. Prot. Truly Sir I cannot but acknowledg that to preserve Order and Peace in so vast a Body as the Church is there must of necessity be a Government and if Government then Subordination and consequently an established Supream Governor And now methinks reflecting upon Ecclesiastical History I see clearly that such an orderly Government was settled in the Church by the Apostles themselves For if as some among us pretend the same Apostles had intended no Supereminence of Bishops above Presbyters and no degrees of authority among Bishops it could not possibly have happened that a few unarmed Bishops not assisted by Secular Power should so immediately after the Apostles have subdued such a world of Presbiters formerly supposed their equals to their Iurisdiction and no marks be left in any antient Writers to shew that those Presbyters resisted or so much as complained against such an usurpation and tyranny And the like may be said touching the Subordination of simple Bishops to Metropolitans Primate Patriarks and of all these to the Supream Pastor Though probably those Titles came into the Church in posteriour ages Therefore upon due consideration I cannot deny but my aversion to such and so qualified an Authority of the Bishop of Rome as you say is moderated by the Churches Decision is very much abated Cath. Since therefore you now see a way how to avoid danger from this to you formerly Rock of offence I may I suppose proceed to the following Points of Controversie touching the Holy Eucharist c. §. 64. 3. Of the Popes Temporal Authority and Iurisdiction Prot. No Sir You go too fast For though I am perswaded that our first Reformers with all their Rhetoric should not have drawn me with them out of the Church upon this Motive of opposing such an Authority in the Pope as has been acknowledged by General Councils and the ordinary Exercise of it to be regulated by approved Canons since I suppose such Authority regards only Ecclesiastical Affairs But your Church will not be contented with this for she will extend it also to Temporal matters even to the disposing of Kingdoms deposing of Princes absolving Subjects from their natural Allegiance expresly commanded in Holy Scripture c. Cath. Where do you find that our Church invests the Pope with such an Authority Prot. I cannot distinctly tell you that but of this I am assured that the Pope challenges it and as by Divine Right Cath. How do you ground such an assurance you will not surely esteem this to be an irrefragrable Proof thereof because some of his Predecessors have challenged it when as for above a thousand years before them not any precedent Pope ever pretended to it But let it be supposed that the present Pope did now challenge it Will you not live in a Community in which the Governor challenges more then you will grant to be his due Prot. No truly especially if that Authority to which he pretended endangers the ruine of Kingdoms or the utter banishment of Peace every where For such an Authority I am sure was never established on earth by our Saviour who is the Prince of Peace And that which makes me assured hereof is this because if Christ had had such an intention of dissolving the Frame of all Civil Government through the world he would have left in Scripture or Tradition most express proofs of such his will in a matter of that infinite importance whereas the quite contrary rather appears Cath. You say well But will you run out of the Church in case a Pope should chance to challenge more then his due when perhaps no obligation lies upon you to submit to such Authority challenged by him or to acknowledg the justice of it Prot. Dare you disacknowledg this Authority §. 65. Cath. What I acknowledg or disacknowledg is not material But to rectify your mistake I will sincerely acquaint you with the whole matter as it stands at this day and thence you may collect what must be required from you in case you are a Catholic Prot. You will much oblige me therein Cath. Then it cannot be denyed that besides that Temporal Power indeed belonging to the Pope within his own Dominions of which he is now the Temporal Soveraign several Popes in former times have both Challenged and actually exercised an unlimitted Temporal Iurisdiction over other Kingdoms and Empires Which Iurisdiction if it hath not been expresly acknowledged as just yet it hath been sometimes submitted to by Kings either obnoxious and unable to resist or desirous to make use of it for their own advantage against Enemies or Rebels Several examples hereof remain in our Records particularly during the Raigns of King Iohn and Henry the third But generally Princes when freed from such exigences have resolutely and stoutly resisted such pretentions of the Roman Court. If we now descend to latter times and cast our view on the present state of Christendom we shall find Kings and states so far from admitting such an exorbitant forrain Iurisdiction to be exercised or acknowledged within their Dominions that not any of them will permit Rescripts Bulls or Mandats from Rome though regarding even Ecclesiastical affairs unless touching private inferior persons to be published and much less executed within their states till examined and approved in their respective Councils Nay more then this even the Canons of Reformation prescribed by the General Council of Trent as far as they are suspected to entrench upon the Temporal Power of Princes have always been refused to