used by anie Orthodox Minister since the Lord Bishops those Popish Ecclesiastical Magistrates were cashiered who were indeed neither Magistrates nor Ministers but like the Pope between both Pr. I confess the Elders formerly chosen some years since in my Parish have refused to act to my great grief But now lately I my self and the Church-wardens have nominated others and the Parish have assented to the choice and although the persons chosen will not take upon them the Office of the Eldership yet they have assented to joyne with me in debarring the scandalous and profane from the Lords Table which is a chief point of Reformation and I rejoice much in it Ph. How did you prevail to bring the business so far Pr. I had found some difficultie in it but that at last I gave the honest partie who best liked our proceedings good satisfaction and so the choice was verie free and unanimous none opposing Ph. How was that possible seeing all the people within your Parish liked not of your proceeding how came it to pass that none declared against it Pr. I do confess some few there are in my Parish whom I knew to be of contrarie judgement and some stick not to say our proceedings are Antichristian and have no foundation in the word of God but I took a course to have all such absent when the matter was debated and at the choice of those Assistants Ph. What course did you take I desire to know for I have heard you censured for that business Pr. First I conferred with the wealthiest best and most leading men in my Parish before I came to the choice some in private and some in companie with others at several meetings and gave them satisfaction and these I knew would draw the most of the common sort And for the rest whom I knew I could not convince I warned them publickly in the Church to absent themselves and by message privately I desired such as I thought would oppose to forbear to hinder us in that business And by this means and by telling the men who were to be chosen that they should only assist mee in keeping the scandalous and ignorant from the Communion and do nothing els they assented and I hope whll cheerfully joyne with me in that work Ph. Now do you think this is a sufficient Reformation Pr. It is a principal part thereof we must wait untill we can bring on the rest Ph. It seems there your pretended Elders are no Elders but assistant I am sorrie you have shewed your self so bold as to set up a new Office in your pretended Parish Church shew me where ever anie man pretending to be a Minister of Christ by himself or with two three or four more usurped that power over a thousand persons as you and your new fashion Elders if they be rul'd by you intend to do I confess in the Popish Congregations and lately here in England the same was practised The Bishop or his Chancellour with a Presbyter or Minister did excommunicate or debar from the Sacrament but in worst times no man could be suspended without a Presbyter joyning in that act And the Church-Wardens which are yet in request were assistants to the Priest as your new fashion Elders are and both alike keep Christ out of his Kingdom and so most suitable to your Parish Churches which are not fit for lawfull Elders no more then they are capeable of lawful Ministers Pr. I have erected no new Office but the same which the Scripture holds forth only their power is limited by mutual assent of them and the Minister And for the exercise of that power in keeping the scandalous and profane from the Sacrament it is included within and is part of their Office Mat. 18.17 where the Church signifieth the Ministers and Elders who are the representative Church for the rest it s answered before Ph. That question concerning the Church I will not enter into but leave it to the learned who have sufficiently discussed it But for my part I am confident no such construction can be made of that place for the Church alwaies signifieth the whole bodie Ministers and people or the members distinct from the Officers Pr. This question being one of the principles upon which all the Controversies between us and the Independents are founded I shall wholly wave you you have heard my opinion in publick to which I adhere and shall do untill I see better cause to alter my judgement Ph. Let that pass but what was the reason why you carried the business of chusing your pretended Elders so clandestinely and with such policie without hearing other mens opinions who were of contrarie judgment Pr. To tell you the truth I feared opposition and that the work may be hindered and therefore I desired to avoid all occasions and to carrie on the work as smoothly as I could and I am glad of it Ph. It s a sign you think your mettal is naught because you fear the Touch-stone The truth seeks no corners but in light shines more clearly Pr. The truth may have opposition and yet is the same still We fear not the touchstone but the sleights of men who most oppose those things which are best Ph. It seems now you have your desire what proceedings have you made towards Reformation do your pretended Elders act according to your minde do you think they perform their dutie Pr. Yea truly I have much comfort in them and doubt not but we shall separate the precious from the vile and yesterday we made a verie hopeful beginning insomuch as they undertooke to do in joyning with me to keep the scandalous and profane from the Lords Table Ph. What course did you take to make that separation Pr. The Elders refer it to me to examine all those who were to communicate the week before they came to the Sacrament and accordingly I published my intention not to admit anie who did not come to the Church at the time appointed to be examined And manie of my Parish came and submitted themselves to be examined accordingly Ph. Your pretended Elders are verie confident it seems they see with your eyes and hear with your ears But I pray you what did you finde by examining those who came to you and concerning what did you examine them Pr. I questioned those whom I suspected to be ignorant about the grounds of Religion and touching the nature of the Sacraments and and for others whom I feared not I did not examine them at all although some of those came to me and others sent in their names and I entred them all in a Book as well such as appeared as those who sent in their names and did not appear Ph. But did you all this your self I mean examine the people judicially in order to their admission to or suspension from the Lords Table and that by the advice of your new Elders or assistants surely herein they made you an absolute Pope and sole Judge of
and put him up into the Pulpit not doubting of his calling to the Ministry And all these in order to the service of these mens pride and covetousness Pr. I perceive you finde fault almost with every thing although never so ancient and inoffensive What can you say against Mariage why it should not be accounted to belong to the Ministry having been so long used in the Church Ph. I answer that Marriage is a civill action and belongs to the Magistrate to see it orderly done and so was used under the Law and is so used at New-England and in other reformed Churches at this day Ruth 4.9 Lechfield newes c. pag. 39. It s true that in corruption of time when Antichrist prevailed above the civill power it was brought into the Church that the Priest might have an oare in every boat and no man marry but whom they permitted And by this meanes it was looked to that the Priests might not marry and those persons who did marry must have the Parish Priests Certificate or Licence least any grist should go by their mill Pr. This may be true and yet the thing not unlawfull for the Minister in the face of the Congregation to joyne the marryed couple and to give them some good exhortation fit for such a Solemnitie Ph. Why may not as much be done by a godly Magistrate being a civill action and common to all Nations But that is not all after the Marriage was annexed to the Ministeriall function the Church of Rome soone made it a Sacrament and the Ring must needs be added as the outward signe of love the invisible grace that as the Ring is endlesse the marryed couples love should be endlesse A worthie Sacrament and without doubt fit to be retained in the Church for the benefit of the Clergie both in respect of honor and profit the two maine things of all their designes Pr. But I pray you why may not burying the dead be a fit action for the Minister and a funerall Sermon requisite for them which are living Ph. For burying the dead It s also a civill work of Charitie for Christians to accompanie the corp's of their dead friends to the grave and to lay them there without more adoe and the dead also may burie their dead And what the Minister hath there to do more then another man I know not Pr. It s fit he should give some exhortation to the people and if he preach a Funerall Sermon it s done for the edification of the living and not for the dead and preaching is good in season and out of season Ph. I confess the word ought to be preached in season and out of season but some times and places are so unseasonable as no christian prudence will admit it convenient to preach as the times now are for a man to preach in Westminster-hall when Judges are sitting though Paul preached upon Mars-hill the Judges Court at Athens or to preach a Sermon in a common hall when a companie are at dinner where no man regards these times and places are too unseasonable there being convenient times and places for such religious actions And for your exhortation or funeral Sermon they are more inconvenient and unseasonable then at anie other time and place being more abused and the very original being naught 1. First we read of no such thing in the Scripture onely we finde godly men used to accompanie others to the grave and sometimes made lamentation for them 2. Secondly these funeral Sermons or rather Orations were first used by the Heathen and then taken up by the Church of Rome who used at these Solemnities to praise the dead 3. Thirdly thence the Church of Rome came to pray for the dead and to this day defend it stifly And therefore as a learned man once said in a Sermon in my hearing we have left praying for the dead for the evill of it we may as well leave off praysing the dead by reason of the abuse of it 4. Fourthly now besides this the corruption of the times are such that the gift for the funerall Sermons so blindeth the eyes of the Ministers that generally they alwaies finde out one thing or other to commend the dead for although most prodigiously wicked as what man in his sickness or at some other time will not do or say some good for which the Minister presently in conceipt placeth the dead partie in Paradise to the woful hardning of the wicked many of their auditors in a course of sin when they hear as bad as themselves absolved by the Minister as a Saint departed and a faithfull brother according to the blinde charitie of our Service-Book And were it not that some profit comes to the Clergie by these funeral Orations they would as easily be laid aside as their prayer and exhortation at the grave for which they had nothing given unto them Pr. You seemed before to take exception to the Baptisme of Infants and truly you reason like an Independent who are for the most part Anabaptists Ph. I do not disallow of the Baptism of some Infants whom I conceive to have right to Baptisme but I do not allow of the Baptisme of all children indifferently nor of all such children whose Parents profess Christianitie Pr. The ancient Fathers testifie the Baptisme of Infants in the Church to be an Apostolicall Institution and to have been used from the Apostles times when whole housholds were baptized and no exception of children And there are many reasons and unanswerable arguments grounded upon Scripture both in the old and New Testament to warrant it And the verie Text it self is clear Acts 2.39 The promise is made to you and to your children c. And if the promise be made to them children they then have right to the signe or seal of the promise Ph. Touching what you alledg from the Fathers I confess I have not all those books in my custodie which I finde cited for this purpose but I have searched divers of them and if you please to examine them they make nothing for you All agree in this that Infants were baptized in the Primitive Church and Augustine affirmes it to be an Apostolicall Tradition August contr Donat. l. 4. ca. 23.24 Lib. 10. de gen ad liter ca. 23. Ciril in levi l. 4. But this doth not prove that the children of Heathens nor of all such who professed christianitie were baptized how wicked and lewd soever their parents were or whither of the Church or excommunicate And such as hold all ought to be baptized hold that children dying without Baptisme cannot be saved Cipri Epi ad fidum 137. And for your Arguments from Scripture you can thence conclude nothing But that the Infants of believers have been and may be baptized And if you observe where you finde whole Families baptized as the Jailor Acts 16.14.15.33 34. and Lydia's the Parents at least one of them were believers And touching that place in the
Acts which onely seemes so plain to you If I should admit the promise there mentioned to be that which you meane which may verie well be questioned it makes nothing to prove that for which its intended by the men of your opinion who will have all the children in their Parish if their parents come to Church to be baptized The next words clear it from such construction and give you a full answer The promise is made to you and to your children and to such as are a far off but the Apostle further addes even as manie as the Lord our God shall call so that by your construction this must be concluded Converts have right to the promise and so have their children c. You conceive the State hath done well in debarring the wicked and abominable from the Lords Table and if the Parents be separated or excommunicate so I account them who are debarred from that Sacrament how can their children have right to the other as being born of believing Parents Pr. We conceive we have sufficient warrant to baptize all Infants that are brought to us being offered in the Church to be baptized For although their immediate Parents were neither of them Beleivers yet some of their ancestors might be and we are bound in charitie to believe they were Believers for God sheweth mercy to thousands of generations of them that love him Ph. You are without doubt singular in your opinion and upon this ground all the children of Turks are to be baptized if offered in the Congregations because they proceed from Abraham by Hagar and all the Jews because they proceed from Sem yea and all the Gentiles because they proceed from Japheth and all the world because they proceed from Adam I never heard asserted untill of late nor do I think any Orthodox Divine will maintain it I confess I once heard something to that purpose from a Minister whom you know very confidently affirmed But afterwards he having to deal with the Anabaptists forsook that hold and stood onely upon that point to prove that some Infants had right to or might be baptized which he then and at other times proved by Doctor Featleys arguments against the Anabaptists Pr. How ever it may be with the children of Turks and other Infidels yet there is no doubt but the children of such as are members of the Church by outward profession although we see not the signes of grace and election in them have right to Baptism Ph. I account godless impenitent persons living in the bosome of the Church as Infidels and Heathens and the Apostles rule is so and in the language of the Scripture they are dogs and swine to whom holy things are not to be given nor the childrens bread to be cast to them Matth. 7.6 And their children where neither Parent can be judged a believer which no notorious wicked man or woman can be are pronounced unclean 1 Corinth 7.14 How ever God may shew mercie the Church ought to judge according to outward appearance and not to admit the wicked Parents to the one Sacrament nor their children to the other without reformation in the Parents or one of them But I pray you why was not the child baptized which was brought from another Parish to your Congregation to be baptized I understand the Minister refused to baptize it Pr. It s true but it was not refused upon your ground the Minister consulted with the heads of the Parish and upon debate of the matter they concluded it was not fit it should be baptized there least it might be chargeable to the Parish Ph. I am sorrie to hear this carnal resolution from such a Minister and so long taught a people It seems some Ministers and people dare transgress the Law of God if it be for advantage As the Pharisees taught upon pretence of their Corban the Box But how doth this agree with that tenet that all children of such as are members of the Church by outward profession which all are in that Parish where that Childe was born ought to be baptized Pr. If it be a fault let him or them answer for it who did it it may be they are able to give satisfaction therein But touching that which you said before that some are to be accounted unclean we cannot censure any as profane or unclean nor keep them from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper the Minister cannot do it of himself without the Elders Church-Officers joyn with him Although the Minister know the Communicants to be prodigiously wicked or ignorant and in all probabilitie eat and drink their own judgment or damnation he cannot keep them from the Sacrament Such must be suspended by the Church before the Minister can refuse to admit them and untill then their children ought not to be denied the Sacrament of Baptisme for the reason before alledged Ph. Touching admitting all to the Lords Supper upon that ground because the Minister cannot refuse them not being prohibited by the Church you mean the Presbyterie I answer the Minister is bound to forbear to administer the Sacrament to them whom he knowes eat and drink their own judgment for the reasons aforesaid Although you have not the power of the Church-censures in your hand The reason is clear because it is alwaies a sin to give holy things to dogs and to prophane Gods Ordinances But it s no sin to forbear to administer a Sacrament upon just occasion for a time The Jews were not reproved for omission of Circumcision in the Wilderness Joshua 5.5 and the Passeover upon just occasion might be deferred for a moneth Numb 9.9.10 And although I think it no sin to communicate with the wicked in the Ordinances where I am not a personal actor nor approver of their sin but a partaker Yet it s without doubt a sin to be an actor in such a case for the actor transgresseth the rule and causeth others to transgress Pr. It seems you stumble at mixt Congregations do you ever think to finde a Church on earth so clean as not to have wicked men in it The tares will grow in the field with the wheat untill the harvest which is the end of the world Ph. I confess your mixt Parochiall Congregations do so far make mee stumble that I much question whether they can be reputed true visible Churches of Christ And I hold that manie of them are not having not the essentials either the material nor formal causes of a Church in Gospel sense but are rather the Synagogues of Satan like Priests like people and the best are leprous and very unclean I know the Tares shall grow with the wheat Matth. 13.38 but if you mean by Tares profane wicked men they shall grow in the field that is in the world not in the Church the Tares which shall be in the Church untill the harvest are hypocrites profane men shall be cashiered or rather never admitted into the Churches of Christ But I cannot devise
Maries daies when a Popish Priest was your Predecessor who had his autoritie from the Bishop who was a Papist and held of the Pope I could tell you their names if need were And neither that Priest or any of his Successors ever since have had any other calling or Ordination but from the Bishops as long as they were standing Pr. If this were true touching Succession yet you cannot denie but that we have the word and Sacraments and a companie of faithful Christians communicating in those Ordinances under a faithfull Pastor are a visible Church of Christ Ph. Touching the Word and Sacraments I have alreadie given you an answr and indeed the Papists and almost all Hereticks pretend as you do and have the word amongst them and their Ministers or Priests have as orderly a Calling and Ordination as yours have and yet this makes them not the true visible Churches of Christ as all you do acknowledg Pr. I do not conceive that the Papists have either the Word or Sacraments amongst them for that the word is so corrupted by their false Glosses and Translations that it s made a leaden rule to be bowed everie way to serve their own turn for upholding their superstitions and their service is in Latine which the common people understand not And for the Sacrament of Baptisme it hath so manie additions that the Nature of it is destroied And for their Ministerie they are professed Papists and adversaries to Christ in all his Offices Ph. I do confess their Ministers are no Ministers of Christ but lims of Antichrist in respect of their Callings yet I do not condemn them all as Reprobates no more then I do Pope Gregorie the great Thomas a Kempis Ferus Stella and other their Preachers whom I think to have been godly and devout men in their times And for corrupting the Scriptures if putting false Glosses upon them make Gods word cease to be Gods word then are you Formalists deeply guiltie for the vulgar Translation is abominably corrupt and yet you allowed it and manie of you used it translated in the late Service-Book And all that you alledge for your succession of Ministerie and visible Churches your Classes Councels and Synods their autoritie over other Churches compelling others by the Temporall Power to believe and worship God as they see best is in effect grounded upon or agreeing with the corrupt Glosses and notes of the Rhemists upon the New Testament and other popish Authors and thence fetched by the late Formalists to defend themselves against the Puretans And for the Latine Service it is much like our Organ Anthems both edifying alike and the one as tollerable as the other See the old Protestant and New Formalist Pa. 36.37 Aud concerning the Papists addition of Cream Salt Spittle c. to the Sacrament of Baptisme I confess the addition wicked and abominable and yet no worse haply nor so bad as the Cross which you received and used for that serves to blesse or rather conjure all the rest and is honored with Divine honour and an holie daie appointed for it And yet I must tell you that with one consent you allow of this Sacrament administred by the Papists who do not administer it but with these additions to be a true Sacrament And you hold that those who were baptized by Papists are not to be rebaptized Pr. For my part I have cast off these corruptions and am constant to those principles tending to Reformation which others my Reverend Brethren of the Clergie have approved of and I am now about to set up the Government of Christ in my Parish Ph. I fully understand your designe you and your fellowes intend the old but not the oldest way of pretended Reformation wherein you shuffle and cut as fast as Hocus Pocus and your proceedings are so ridiculous that everie indifferent capacitie hath light enough through your figleaves to see your nakedness Pr. Wherein are we guiltie of such shufling or why are we so ridiculous Ph. In your proceedings for upholding your Parishes you pretend one thing viz. Reformation but your end and designe is to avoid the danger of loosing your Livings in case the Parishes should be dissolved Pr. I know nothing we do for which we can be justly censured we continue our preaching and do endeavour to settle Presbyterian Government according to Gods word Ph. For your preaching I earnestly desire you may sincerely applie your selves to it for that probably may do some good but for your other fetches and devices they savour more of Politicks then Religion squared by Gods word Pr. What Policie can there be in setling the Presbyterian Government with the Classes and Synods we settle nothing but what we are willing likewise to submit unto and to be judged by as well as the people Ph. Let the Government be what it will so your Livings and estates may be secured it s no great matter if the Parlament please but to declare that all your Parishes are visible Churches that you may hold them intire and the people be inforced to pay you all your Tithes Oblations obventions Mortuaries and other dues you will be satisfied and wait for further Reformation when it may stand with your honour and profit And upon that condition you will submit to the present Government of the Common-wealth But if your interest in these things be interrupted or in danger you know no other way to secure them but by setling this Government And this is the mark at which you shoot take but a view of those places your own Parish for one where the Elders are chosen do they serve for anie thing but Cyphers or do you and they act anie thing towards Reformation but meerly to this end and purpose Pr. I do confess if the Churches were equall or independent so there were Government as well in Church as Common-wealth and other things in order it might be well And where the Elders are chosen if Reformation go not on it is because the Elders refuse to act or joyne with the Minister Ph. I confess I know some nominated for Elders who make scruple to joyne with you in your business haply because they have found out your deceit which is meerly to make a shew of Reformation but your chief end is the securing your Livings Pr. That is not the cause of their refusal it is because the Parlament doth not arme them with power to execute their Offices and compell obedience to their injunctions as is fit for Ecclesiastical Magistrates Ph. If your proceedings were of God you would not need the secular Power to compel to obedience such as are within the Church and for those which are without you have nothing to do with them The censures of the Church are Gods Ordinance for that end and are most effectual But for that compulsive power you speak of it savours of the Tyrannie of Antichrist and so doth your title of Ecclesiastical Magistrate which title I have not heard
how its possible these Parochiall Congregations can be purged without disbanding there are so few who are fit to be Church-members and so many of the wicked Pr. Although we have not the Discipline set up to sweep and cleanse the Church yet we endeavor to put a difference between the precious and the vile and to give everie one their portion and to order things in the best manner we can both for the Ministerie and people Ph. It s true you have the Image or rather counterfeit of some such thing as putting a difference in he Popish Vestries But I pray you what garments have you to keep there that the Vestrie must needs be upheld the Whoores smock with the Cope Rochet Tippet and other trumperie are gone And I know not any of Baals Priests here who now use such vestments that there is any need of a Vestrie to put them in or that so manie men need be trusted with them Pr. That meeting which you scoffe at is no such Vestrie it s only a place for the heads of the Parish to meet in to consult about the affairs and Orders of the Church and for setling and chusing the Minister when there is need and providing maintenance for him Ph. It seems then that those Vestrie-men who are there to consult are more worthie then the rest who are without and may not intermeddle with these things about which they consult These do very well resemble the conclave of Cardinals at Rome advising about the chusing deposing and ordering the affairs of the Pope and his Church But I pray you by what Law of God have these your Vestrie men autoritie to elect and put out the Minister and to prescribe rules and Lawes for the residue of the people I protest against all their Orders and agreements how just soever they may seeme as not daring to submit to such an usurped power being contrarie to Christian libertie in which the Apostle Paul commands the Galatians and in them all Christians to stand fast and to maintain the same as being purchased by Christ himself Gal. 5.1 compared with chap. 3.1 3. chap. 4.10 Pr. I confess this Vestrie is not a right Presbyterie nor claim they any such power by colour of any divine Law But yet for order and conveniencie I think they ought to be tolerated untill the time of reformation But Sir what doth this concern you It becomes you to be a hearer and a learner rather then a Teacher having no calling thereunto Ph. It concerns me and every Christian as a member of the Church if your Church be a true Church to elect our own Minister and not to have him thrust upon us either without or against our wills or consents as the manner now is And he that comes in otherwise then by the suffrage of the people enters not by the door but comes in as a Thief and a Robber and hath no lawful calling Calvin Instit l. 4. ca. 3. Sect. 15. Act. 14.23 Pr. For our calling to the Ministerie we doubt not of it nor ever questioned it being confident its warrantable Those who ordained us being Bishops and lawfull Presbyters or at least they stood in the place of such and acts don by them are valid Sacraments administred by Papists and other hereticks are right Sacraments so they be duly administred for the matter although joyned with their corruptions And I hold it unlawfull for any man to take upon him the Office or function of a Minister without a lawfull calling And I finde that in those ancient Canons called the Canons of the Apostles it is ordained that one Bishop may ordain a Presbyter Ph. This is a poor and insufficient calling if a Bishop had any autoritie to ordain a Minister or to judge of his gifts in order to his admission to a Church which I denie and the same is a point of Poperie yet that thereupon the Churches suffrage or assent should be by the Bishop conferred upon the Minister is against all sense and reason much more against Religion which ought to be squared by the word as the Rule Mar. de vulson de libert de le Eglises Gallicane Pag. 148. ca. 9. And for your Canons of which you speak none regard them but the more ignorant sort of Papists they being known to be of a later date then the Apostles and are credited as much as Lucianus scoffes Tobits and Judiths stories or Jeffery Munmouth his tales And those Canons were coyned just at his time some four hundred years since by some of Jeffery's Religion But can you shew no more then this for your calling then give over railing against others who have not the same and yet it may be a better calling then you have Pr. Why what do our Ministers of the Church of England want or what is requisite to a lawfull Calling to the Ministerie Ph. Besides abilities of gifts and inward graces every Minister ought to have a more due ordination and this is to be performed by the Church or Congregation for the better effecting whereof they may take the advice of the learned who are able to make tryal of his gifts and of his abilitie and aptness to teach And then the same is perfected by the free election or suffrage of the people who are Church-members And in these things the Scripture is plain shew how you have such a calling Pr. For the first I had thought I had given you satisfaction alreadie when I told you we were ordained by Bishops who had abilitie to judge of the Ministers gifts and were or stood in the place of true Presbyters And for that which you call Election or the Suffrage or assent of the people although it have no place with us regarding everie circumstance in the formalitie of it yet we have that which is equivalent to it Ph. I pray you what is that Pr. We at the least some of us have the consent of the Parish or at least the most of them either before or after our admission and if not we are presented by the Patron of the Church who is instead of all the Congregation being their representative in as much as he was intrusted by them all to chuse for them all in regard of their weakness and to avoid confusion in the election and his act in presenting is the act of all the people as the Acts of Parlament being made by those who are chosen by the people are the Acts of the people And the people are bounden as well by the Acts of the one as of the other yet if any man except against the person presented he bath his liberty to do it Ph. O most profound divinitie or rather notable poperie By the same Rule and upon the same ground the Pope collated to many Churches in England and the Bishops had the oversight of all the Churches in their Diocesses some peculiars excepted and put in and put out at their pleasures and this must be allowed for the people
surrendred or rather yeilded up by compulsion into the hands of these wolves pretending to be Shepherds all their right and power But alas this grew through corruption of time when Antichrist was come to his height then he and his Prelates inthralled the Churches and wrested from the poor people that right which the Gospel gave unto them and which continued for the first three hundred years after Christ as is confessed by the Papists and Protestants Fullers holy state li. 2. ca. 12. pa. 87. Acts 1.23 6.5 Calvin Institâ—l 4. ca. 19. Sect. 31. 14. Se. 31. Cath Divine An. Caudrey Case Prefa sect 8. Magd Cent. 2. ca. 7. cent 3. c. 7 Cipr. epist l. 1. epist 4. epist 3. l. 1.3 epist 11. But these Wolves made void the Law of God by their Traditions and the slavish Ministerie of England are unwilling to come out of this Babylonish servitude but with Issachar because he sees rest is good or rather his Benefice fat he croucheth down under the burthen But see the use and equitie of it in our dayes it may be at the first this power of presentation was given to a good man or rather he took it because he founded or endowed the Church but by revolution of times it comes by descent or purchase to an Atheist a Papist a Symonist or some wretch not fit to be trusted with the life and death of a dog much less with the soules of men And by this means the souls of men according to that Prophecie become the merchandize of Rome for who seeth them not set to sale almost by every Patron yea and their bodies too Rev. 18.13 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for according to the number of the people and the profit of their bodily labours is the Advowson sold for more or less And I know no other way in all the world how the bodies and souls of men can be made the merchandize of Rome but by this means nor is the Prophecie any other way fulfilled for if it should be meant of selling slaves that properly belongs to the Turks Pr. But I told you although some Patrons prove Latrons and sell the Presentations the people may except against the partie presented if he be not a worthie man and if they do not it s their own fault Ph. You had need to have more skill in Divinitie then you have in the Law Alas this Libertie is but a meer gullerie and cousenage of the people If any one refuse to admit or do keep out the partie presented And a quare impedit or such Writ be brought to trie the right Gods Law never comes into question but only who hath the best title to present by the Law of the Land which is Popish in that point as in manie others the Lord of heaven amend it and lookes only upon the presentation as a temporal right without judging the matter as appertaining to Religion therefore I pray you speak no more of this matter for the more you stir in in it the more it stinks But shew me some better evidence of your calling Pr. I will shew you sufficient Wee have abilities and gifts fit for the Ministerie being apt to teach and able to divide the word of truth aright And our Ministerie is sealed by the conversion of soules and however our outward calling in a nicetie may be defective yet we have the inward which is most effectuall and therefore there is no cause of separation Ph. For your calling I account it not right for what you formerly alledged And for that you last said its no proofe that your calling to the Ministerie is lawful for a private man may be abundantly gifted yea and convert souls as common experience sheweth and yet have no calling to the Ministerie And this I dare farther add and know by mine own observation that God doth not bless the Ministers labours who have received the mark of the Beast by their conformities and subscriptions as he doth the labours of other faithful men And the reason is because they stood not in Gods wayes for if they had they should have turned the people from their iniquities But for want of a faithful Ministerie it hath pleased God to blesse the endeavours of godly Parents and religious governours of families and private Christians who with Joshua serve the Lord to the conversion of many more souls then are turned unto God by these mens Ministery how learned and Orthodox soever So that where a man can hardly finde any converted by the Ministery of these men he may finde the footsteps of Religion and godlinesse derived from religious Parents and Families for the continuance of the Church from generation to generation even to admiration And your old conformitie and Subscription which you are constrained to defend by Popish arguments when you have to deal against the Brownists and Independents are a great blemish to the Ministery Pr. We subscribed to nothing which was unlawfull although many things were inconvenient Ph. Thanks bee to God that we be rid of the Hierarchy of Arch-bishops Diocesan Bishops Arch-Deacons Deans and the rest of that rabble the Books of Common-prayer Homilies consecration of Priests and Deacons with the spiritual Courts Licenses Dispensations Commutations of Pennance Consecration of daies to Saints and some to wicked men and Idols as the Crosse and the Rhoode daies observed by some forbidding of meats and marriage at some times with their Canons and Ceremonies Crosses Surplices worship of the breaden God and many other popish trinkets All which the most ingenious amongst your selves have condemned as not capable of purgation but fit to be abolished else I could easily prove the whole body of them which are contained in your Subscription most of them being injoyned and set forth in the Rubrick and the rest comprehended in your Oath and Canonicall obedience to be reliques of Antichrist invented by that man of sin and his vassals and are at the best humane presumptions brought into the Church without warrant of the Word Vid. Preface to the Common-prayer Book or teaching Ceremonies which Christ onely ought to appoint who is the Teacher of his Church and serve for nothing else but to mis-leade the simple and to offend the weak and tend onely to conformity with Rome And therefore altogether unlawfull But cheifly the Cross which in Baptism is made the sign and Seal of the whole work of Sanctification is the worst of all Popish Ceremonies and the greatest Idol in the Romish Church except the Virgin Marie for that blesseth all the rest and therefore is the greater as Bellarmine teacheth Bellar. Contr. de sacra Confer l. 2. c. 13. pa. 371. These things you know better then I do yet I name them thus briefly that you may consider of them and not wilfully hudwink your conscience and imprison or withhold the truth in unrighteousness but that you may come to the sight of that your sin and as you have publikely offended you may