Apostle saith that as liuely stones they were made a spirituall house yet he saith not that euery one among them was so and those that were he declareth from whence it came to wit Iesus Christ. In which matter if no further purity be ment by the author we do agree as also that euerie one hath his burthen his order being boūd to edifie one an other exhort reproue and comfort one an other louingly as being members of one bodie and faithfully as in Gods sight The neglect of these duties hath bred nourished continued this late pestilent schisme amongst vs. That the affecting of offices the wresting or neglecting of laws peruerting of truth are not incident to the church is newes too good to be true as shal appere euen by the selfe same places of scripture which here are set in the margent as good proofes of the authors follies whiles that they do so flatly gainesay that which they should iustifie For manie make merchandize of the word 2. Cor. 2. 17. And Diotrephes loueth to haue the preheminence 3. Iohn 9. then is there affecting of offices In the latter times some shall speake lies through hipocrisie and haue their consciences burned with an hot iron 1. Timoth. 4. 2. And some desiring to make a faire shew in the flesh constraine men to be circumcised Galat. 6. 12. then is there peruerting of trueth The Corinthians were negligent in proceeding against the incestuous person 1. Cor. 5. then is there neglecting of lawes VVhat shall we then say to this man who woulde make the world beleue that the scriptures do confirme that which they do so directly and plainely deny Let him pronounce the sentence vpon him selfe He saith The prophet that hath a dreame let him tell a dreame and he that hath Gods word let him speake Gods word faithfully Ier. 23. 28. and so say I for it is a vile abuse that is offered to God and man when a dreame or fancie is countenaunced with the scriptures which doe ouerthrow it What is the chaffe to the wheat Timothie durst not thus behaue himselfe in Gods house 1. timoth. 3. 15. Euerie member of the church say they ought to haue freedome to vtter his complaintes and griefes yea and not disturbing the peaceable order of the church by passing the boundes of his calling to reproue transgressions and errors this we grant of our owne accord not being vrged hereunto by any thing mentioned 1. Corinth 6. or 14. 30. which proue it not but that the estate of the visible church is such that euerie member hath alwaies this freedome we deny it Also we say that as there may be intrusion or climing vp an other way into the sheepefold through mens corruptions then by the election of those to whome election doth belong so woulde it be a horrible cōfusion if the election of offices were left in the hands of the people as in this platforme of discipline they doe teach vs but that the people should haue their interest in ordination also is more then grosse For proofe whereof I will not stand vppon those places of Paule 1. Tim. 5. 22. lay not thy hand rashlie on anie man and Tit 15. for this cause left I thee at Creete that thou mightest appoint Elders in euerie citie because that although they flatly gainesay the ordination of Elders by the people yet they seeme not sufficient vnto some to infringe the libertie of the people in election also because that Luke shewing howe Paule and Barnabas appointed Elders in the churches saith that they did it by consent And it is not to be thought saith Caluin that Paule did grant a greater liberty to Timothie and Titus then he tooke vnto himselfe for which purpose is also alleged Ciprian who would vt sacerdos plebe presente sub omnium oculis deligatur atque dignus atque idoneus publico iudicio cōprobetur that the priest when the people are present be chosen in the sight of all be approued to be sufficient meete by common consent Vnto all which I say that euen these authorities of Luke Caluin and Ciprian do flatly deny that election should be made by the people for Praeesse electioni debere alios pastores nequid vel per leuitatē vel per mala studia vel per tumultū à multitudine peccetur Other pastors ought to rule the election lest the multitude faile either through lightnes or by euill practises or tumult so that howsoeuer it be granted by these places cited that a wise people ought to haue their cōsent in election yet if they be tumultuous ill cōditioned or void of grauity as generally the cōmon sort are fautie in one of these then ought other pastors to rule yea and ouerrule thē Those churches also which by the iudgement of our author himselfe are most reformed who admit not any thing of weight to be don inscia vel inuita ecclesia yet whatsoeuer pertaineth to the state of the church they haue the same disposed by the cōmon counsel of the Elder ship so that election is in their power the people consenting vnto them And therfore not to presse the authority of Chrisostom writing about the yere of our lord 500. saith flatly that neither people nor Elders were to elect a bishop or a minister but the bishop only neither election much lesse ordination ought to be at any time in the hands of the multitude furder then in giuing cosent vnto the pastors nor at all to be regarded if they be such as before haue bin mentioned and therfore as these men are vaine in arrogating more then this so are they vaine in censuring the churche of Englande for that it leaueth not this election vnto the people whose ignorance is generally great for want of instruction whose heads are generally very tumultuous by the meanes of such as this our author is VVhy are not they a holie and free people Indeede when Corah and his companie had gathered them selues togither against Moses and Aaron they said Ye take too much vpon you seeing all the congregation is holie euerie one of them and the Lord is among them But I doubt I should iniurie Corah by comparing these men vnto him for he vnder the pretense of holinesse and freedome sought onely to be priuiledged from submission but these our men vnder the same vaile content not thēselues herewith but in their aspiring minds do seeke to bring not the gouernement of the church onely but of the weale publike also into their handes for obtaining where of they lay this platforme first that priuatmen are to erect and establish this gouernment of theirs and then it being erected that all matters both ciuill and ecclesiastical are to be ordered by the same The later of these two pointes wil be manifest hereafter in their description of an Elder who as they say must discerne betweene plea and plea c. And as touching the former point
lambe and that worde of their testimonie they are more then conquerours brusing the head of the serpent yea thorough the power of his word they haue power to cast downe sathan like lightning to tread vpon serpents and scorpions to cast downe strong holdes and euerie thing that exalteth it selfe against God The gates of hell and all the principalities powers of the world shall not preuaile against it Brownist The muster maister hath viewed the world chosen his soldiers appointed the victuallers selected out the sergeants of the bands hath brought them to their captaine and they are readie to march on vnder his conduct in the face of their enemies bodily and ghostly to the confusion of sathan sinne hell and all VVhat wages he exspected for this his peece of seruice is best knowne vnto him selfe but what faithfulnes he hath vsed in his dealing it is apparant vnto all for in these three things his packing is notorious First that the victory of the church which she is assured of in and through the power of Christ is here restrained limited for our author doeth acknowledge it so farre only as it enioyeth this foresaid gouernement of Pastors Doctors Elders c. Secondly that the power of the word of God the ministerie thereof which is the sanctified meanes for sathans ouerthrow and the building vp of Christ his church is here granted no otherwise then this word is preached vnder this outward gouernement Lastly that the certainetie of victorie which is by faith is heere applied to the whole visible church as if all the members thereof were truly faithful By this his practise he woulde conclude that which as yet remaineth vnproued viz. that the necessitie of this gouernmēt is such that the enioyning of it is sufficient to make the church without spot or wrinckle and that where this is wanting there is no fight against fathan no strife against sinne no victorie no church apparant The testimonies of Scripture that should helpe him herein and are for the same cause noted in the margent do cut the throat of these his follies For thogh he telleth vs that this armie of Sainctes is martialled here on earth by these officers yet the holy ghost describeth the warrior and his traine to be the warriors which were in heauen Though this man saith that triumph is made by vertue of this gouernment yet the holy ghost saith it is in pacience and constancie of faith and obedience And in a word though he affirmeth that discipline is all in all yet the places noted by him speaking of the power of Christ in his sernants ouercomming satan doe not once mention anie outward gouernment much lesse this discipline here prescribed Brownist Further he hath giuen them the keies of the kingdome of heauen that whatsoeuer they binde on the earth by his word shall bee bound in heauen and whatsoeuer they loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen Now this power which Christ hath giuen vnto his Church and to euerie member of his church to keepe it in order he hath not lefte it to their discretions and lustes to bee vsed or neglected as they will but in his last will and testament he hath set downe both an order of proceeding and an end to which it is vsed Answere God hath in deede committed authoritie vnto his church of binding and loosing and hath also shewed an order of proceeding which assertions are to be collected out of these three places of Scriptures which are twice noted in the margent that the number of testimonies which they vsed might seeme greater then it is But here we haue to marke that Christ is said to haue giuen this power aforesaid to euery member of the church so that heere is no difference made betwene the people the gouernors or at the lest i◠he supposeth a difference to be betweene them he hath not set downe how farre the authoritie of the people is extended Againe if the people be granted so greate an interest in the matters of the church we must thinke that the officers themselues I meane the Deacons releeuers were not to be secluded which being graunted and seemeth here to be concluded not only women haue to dele in the censures of the Church but also the description of euerie office the Elder onely excepted hath ben vnperfect seeing no such matter hath beene mentioned in any of them Secondly we are to note that he saith that this order is not left to the descretion of the church for if his meaning bee that the censures of the church ought to bee vsed with all fidelitie wee doe not gainesaie him but if hee meane that when they are not duely executed there the church doeth cease to be the church apparant according to that doctrine which in another place they haue set downe then do they agree with the Anabaptists Donatists herein who being sufficientlie answered the one by Bullinger the other by Augustine I maruell that these men shoulde not be satisfied and contented to reuoke this error The summe of whose answers tend to this that the end of excommunication for the question is not of the officers but of the church censures in this place is that the partie punished might bee amended that the credite of the church might bee furthered that others be not offended and made worse and that the church might be preserued in peace Therefore edification and the welfare of the Church are especially to be regarded for better it were that wicked men should goe vnpunished if the punishing of them shoulde damnify the Church Againe the church of Corinth was the church of God when they neglected to proceede against the incestuous person Also the last supper of the Lord was rightly administred yet Iudas was not excommunicate the Prophets complained of the sinnes of the church in their times yet contemned they not the sacrifices sacraments and worship of God Christ and his Apostles blamed the Church for grosse corruptions yet was he circumcised therein c. By which reasons as by others by thē produced we are vrged to acknowledge that it may be the Church of God which doth not alwaies proceede against the wicked according to their deserts Thirdly we are to marke that hee ascribeth the keies of the kingdom of heauen to the officers before named whereas Christ committed this power not to the Elders for none were established but vnto the ministers of the word for in Peter they all are represented as by considering the places alleged out of Mathew and Iohn will plainly appeare Brownist And if the fault be priuate priuat holy louing admonition and reproofe with an inward desire and earnest care to win their brother but if he wil not heare thee yet to take two or three other brethren with him whome hee knoweth most meet to that purpose that by the mouth of two or three witnesses euerie worde
the corruptioÌ„ of their harts Thirdly that our ministery is antichristian a matter handled pag. 125. the scurrilitie in calling them hirelings mercenary preachers c. deserueth no answer the names of parson vicar c. doth not make a difference in the ministery but in their maintenance Fourthly we are subiect to the popish courtes as high commission c. wherunto I answer that al these courts haue their authority from her maiesty though some of theÌ„ more directly then the other In consideration wherof to call the lest antichristian is arrogant but to ioine theÌ„ all in one sentence to disswade her maiesties subiects froÌ„ yeelding obedience vnto any of theÌ„ it will be found an act of no good subiect yet for mine owne parte I purpose not to giue iudgement in the matter I leaue it to such as are acquainted with the law onely I will propound the case which is this The high court of Parlement hath agreed that the queene her hignes successors kings queenes of this realme shall haue full power by letters pattents vnder the great seale to name and authorise when as often and for so long time as her highnes her heires or successors shall thinke meete such person or persons as she or they shal thinke meet to execute vnder her c. all manner iurisdictions priuileges and preheminences in any wise concerning any spirituall iurisdiction within England and Ireland c. 1. Eliz. 1. Now her maiestie by the authoritie aforesaid hath graunted her letters pattentes vnder the great seale for the two courts of high commission and delegates And by the said authority first from the Parlement and then from her maiestie these two courtes doe stande and not by any other right or authoritie whatsoeuer yet these two courts of high commission and of delegates are here tearmed popishe and antichristian courts and the people are condemned to be antichristian which yeelde obedience vnto them This therefore is the case Whether it toucheth her maiesty or not that libels railing vpon and calling her highnes authority which is warranted by her broad seale popish antichristian c. Brownist These assemblies are not ruled by the old and new testament but by the canons iniunctions and decrees of those antichristian and popish courts therefore c. Ansvvere The Argument is this The true church is ruled by the old and new testament but the church of Englande is not c. Therefore c. If Christ hath in his last will set down a perfect gouernment for his church as they say he hath there is little vse of the olde Testament for direction of discipline vnder the Gospell But this Argument being in effect the same with the former needeth no other answere then it had Brownist These people stand not in for their Christian libertie but all of them remaine in bondage to these Aegyptian and Babylonishe yoakes yeelding obedience vnto these courts and their canons Therefore c. Ansvvere The Argument is this All and euerie of the true Church stand in and for their christian libertie to practise whatsoeuer God hath commanded them c. But in the church of England they stande not for their christian libertie Therefore c. Ansvvere We haue seene pag. 49. 50. that the priuate man doth passe the bondes of his calling in presuming to deale with publike reformation Againe it was sayde pag. 45. that in the visible church it doth not alwaies fall out that euerie member hath that freedom which is requisite in the performance of their christian dueties of his calling The proposition therefore is false As for the assumption in differing nothing from the three former it doth commend the greate facilitie of the author who in resoning in so smal varietie of matter is able to frame so greate a change of argumentes which yet being considered of doe appeare all one in effect Brownist These assemblies haue not the povver vvhich Christ hath giuen vnto his church vnto the vvorlds end al the povvers of earth and hell cannot take from them viz. to binde and loose and to reforme things that are amisse but are driuen to the Commissarie courtes Therefore c. Ansvvere The Argument is this The true church hath power to execute the censures of the church but the church of Englande hath not Therefore c. The proposition faileth for the true church is sometimes without outward gouernement whereof read pag. 25. and so consequently without the power which this man speaketh off for I know he will not restraine this power of binding and loosing though he might vnto the ministerie of the word whereof notwithstanding Christ speaketh Ioh. 20. 23. saying Whose sinnes soeuer ye remit they are remitted and whose sinnes ye retaine they are retained As for the assumption it is most vntrue for we haue not onely the power of Gods word which he hath giuen vnto his ministerie to bind and to loose therby but also the censures of the church in respect of outward gouernement I grant that euerie seuerall congregation hath not this power and I dare affirme that in no age it can be proued that euery seuerall congregation had this authoritie but euen in those churches which had an Eldership the same was not in euery assemblie but diuerse congregations were ordered by one senyorie therefore to say that because euerie priuate congregation hath not this power therefore it is not at all in the church is a childish kind of reasoning Brownist These assemblies cast out sathan by the power of sathan namely by these Imps of Antichrist the Bishops commissaries and priests Therfore they are not and for all their reasons seuerall and ioyned cannot be held in any Christian iudgement the true church of Christ. Answere In this last Argument is granted vnto vs that which before was denied viz. that our church hath power of casting out but it faileth in the manner for if they say true this power is not from Christ but from the imps of Antichrist c. vnto which accusation I answere the end wherefore men are cast out from amongst vs by the doctrine of our church should be that the offender by being depriued of the seales of the couenant might be brought vnto repentance Now for the ordering hereof the people are not in the weightie matters of the church to haue their voice pag. 47. c. And a presbyterie in euery congregation cannot be had pag. â—8 therfore neither election ordination excommunication nor other censures of the Church are to be committed to euerie particular congregation As for this vnchristian dealing in condemning for Antichristian whatsoeuer is not according to their humour it hath bene often answered Some defectes there are in our gouernment we challenge no perfection some corruption there is oftentimes in such as haue the ordering of it I defend not all But in this I would be resolued if wee by the power of Satan cast out Satan by what power do they cast out
in the Title of this their treatise which matters if we can finde therein we will acquite them from schisme and heresie but if the discourse be not answerable vnto the Title they must returne vnto vs or else wee must acknowledge them to be not as they pretend but as they are Brownist As there is but one God and father of all one Lord ouer all and one Spirite so is there but one truth one faith one saluation one Church called in one hope ioyned in one profession guided by one rule euen the word of the most high The answere In this first sentence which heere is sette dovvne wee are giuen to vnderstande what there is to bee hoped for in that which followeth both for the matter and also for the manner of handling the matter if wee do but regarde the ende and scope thereof being altogither false yet packed vp with euident truthes that the certaintie of these might free the other of suspition The manner of dealing is to pester the margent with a cloud of witnesses to smal purpose onely they make the ignorant beleeue that he which gain-saith this booke doth speake against the word of God But how vainly this is done it will appeare by the examination of the particulars Seeing the nature and gouernment of the church say they is like vnto the Lord thereof it must be granted that as God is euer one and the same so is his church which professeth one truth holdeth one faith and is guided by that order which God hath reuealed in his word Our answere is that we do acknowledge one God the father sonne holy ghost his truth our faith and the meanes of our saluation to be vnchangeable we confesse likewise one catholike church which is the communion of saints which iointly and seuerally do confesse that saluation is obtained in and through Iesus Christ alone This church comprehendeth in it both angels and men the one sort continuing in the other sort restored vnto that estate wherein they stand and all obtaining this sentence of being perfitly righteous in and thorough the head of that church whereof they are members euen Iesus Christ our Lord. This is the church which they say must be guided by one rule euen the word of the most high Now we desire to know in what sence the word of the most high is taken for if they meane thereby the prouidence of God in which sence it is sometimes taken as Deut. 8. 3. Heb. 1. 3. we do agree in this clause also But the places quoted in the margent do shew that it is meant of the reuealed will of God contained in his word For Deut. 6. 25. Moses telleth the Israelites that the obseruing of all the commandements of the Lord their God wil be their righteousnes Paul Rom. 10. 8. saith that the worde of God was in their mouth in their hart euen the word of faith which vvas preached Againe 2. Tim. 3. 15. hee sheweth Timothie that the scriptures are able to make him wise vnto saluation thorough the faith that is in Christ Iesus Christ in the eight Chapter of Iohn and the one and fiftith verse affirmeth that if a man keepe his vvorde he shall neuer see death Lastly Iohn saith 1. Iohn 2. 3. By this vve knovv that vve know him if we keepe his commandements It is euident that these places do speake of the word of God which is giuen vnto vs to be our guide in this life for the gathering togither of the saints during their abode in this world but when life ceaseth the vse of this word of God doth cease in the Church of God as appeareth in the first to the Corinthians the thirteenth chapter and eight verse Colossians the first chapter and the three and twentith verse c. Therefore to say that the whole church that is both angels in heauen the faithfull departed out of this life and the godly remaining vpon the earth are all alike gouerned by this rule doth bewray either a foule ignorance or a foolish rashnesse VVhich rash ignorance if in this one matter it had shewed it selfe onely it had bene more tollerable then it can be when it alledgeth manie scriptures to prooue the truth so vnseasonablie as here it doth about the vnitie of the Godhead c. For the two first places the first chapter of Genisis and the first verse the twentith Chapter of Exodus and the third verse do mention God in regard of his soueraigntie ouer all things but they speake of him as the inheritour of mount Sion his Church wherefore that of saint Paul in the first to Timothie the second chapter and fourth verse might haue bene sufficient both for the proofe of this and also that there is but one truth one faith c Vnto the knowledge whereof it is the will of God that men should come and be saued By the way obserue that this place of Paul doth crosse that negatiue of theirs We denie say they that you are able to iustifie that faith which they beget their reason is because our worshipping of God is not ioyned with their discipline for we hold that faith which Paul approueth As for the testimonie which Paul giueth of Epaphroditus that he is his brother companion in labor and fellow souldier It is a weake proofe of that whereunto it is referred so is that of the Iewes saying that they haue all one father euen God which Christ denyeth vnto them in the verse next following These things are spoken not to call that into question which in it selfe is true but to shew what discretion hath bene vsed in the choise and alledging these scriptures But we will go forward Brownist This Church as it is vniuersally vnderstood containeth in it all the elect of God that haue ben are or shall be The answere Most certaine it is that the inuisible Church of God extendeth it selfe vnto all the beloued of God that haue bene are or shall be men and Angells beeing complete in him who is the head of all principalities and powers to wit Iesus Christ. VVe do agree herein yet it hath his warrant such as it is for it is here proued by the couenant made with Abraham Gen. 17. and by the vision of Iohn Reuel 7. 9. VVhich places do not proue the matter in as much as they speake of the restoring and preseruation of man onely and not of the whole bodie of the church The other three places alledged are lesse to purpose Peter 1. Pet. 1. 2. writeth vnto the church which was scattered ouer the face of the earth so that he speaketh not of the vniuersall church of God but of that which was in his age Paul saith 1. Cor. 10. 3. that the fathers did eate one spirituall meat But they were not the vniuersall church of God he speaketh only of those that were before him Christ prayeth for his Apostles Ioh. 17. 20. and not for them
although in one of their writings which they haue dispersed they haue made this protestatiō We purpose not to medle with the reformation of the state otherwise then by our prayers vnto God yet as forgetting them selues immediately after in the same discourse they affirme that Christ hath left but one forme of gouernement in his last will and Testament vnto his church which he hath sealed with his bloud and therefore not left it arbitrable at the plesures of princes or policies of times to be done or vndone but made it by a double right inuiolable both by his vvord and his Testamēt so that the church of God can neither be gouerned by any other lawes or gouernement neither ought it to be without this for God holdeth them all in the state of enemies which haue not his sonne to raigne ouer them Now then the faithfull are cōmāded to gather togither in Christs name with promise of directiō protection authoritie not only to establish his lawes ordinances amōg thē but faithfully to gouern his church therby for the kingdom of God cōsisteth not in word but in power Now this assembly of the faithfull before they be planted established in this order cōsisteth hitherto but of priuate persons none as yet being called vnto office function Therefore we may well conclude that God cōmādeth his faithful seruants being as yet priuat men togither to build his church according to the true patterne of Christs Testament thus farre they But here is no word of God to proue any of these assertions we read of Asa Iehosaphat Iehoiada the priest Hezekia Iosia others some of them pulling downe the abominations of Iuda others setting vp the priests Leuits in their places in the house of God disposing thē as in the feere of God semed good in their eies but in the whole book of God is not to be found either precept or exāple to warrant a priuat man in purging much lesse in erecting the church of God Who then required these things at the hands of these men will they tell vs of extraordinary procedings in matters of extremity Let them shew herein some extraordinary testimony from God to warrant vs in regarding them otherwise here is in trusion For howsoeuer Zerubbabel Iehosuah Ezra Nehemia did daily pray for the restoring of the people out of captiuity were most willing ready to go before thē to bring them to Ierusalem yet vntill they had authority cōmitted to thē so to do by the kings of Persia Cirus Darius others they neuer durst attēpt the matter and yet we may truly say that these were no common persons Iehosua being the high priest Zerubbabel a chief mā of the people Ezra a scribe of the law Nehemia a great man yea in the court of Artashast but they al knew ful wel that Moses Aaron the prince and the priest must ioine together in all such actions Likewise in this church they haue holie lavves as limites and boundes vvhich it is lavvfull at no hand to transgresse they haue lavves to direct them in the choise of euerie officer vvhat kiude of them the Lord vvill haue Brownist This tautologie of the holy lawes of the church it is not so vnwisely iterated repeated but it is as foolishly also and fondly proued For Christ Matth. 5. 17. saying that he came not to destroy the lavve and the prophets but to fulfill them and Paul 1. Tim. 1. 18. giuing a commandement to Timothie which commandement is expressed what it is in the third fourth and fift verses of the same chapter doe not once speke of the churches lawes for outward direction as may appeare euidently to euery one that hath but a meane iudgement in the scriptures Ansvver Their pastor must be apt to teach no yong scholler able to diuide the word aright holding fast the faithfull word according to doctrine that he may be able also to exhort rebuke improue with wholesome doctrine and to conuince them that say against it he must be a man that loueth goodnes he must be wise righteoue holy temperate he must be of life vnreproueable as Gods steward he must be generally wel reported of and one that ruleth his owne householde vnder obedience with all honestie he must be modest humble meeke gentle and louing he must be a man of great patience compassion labour and diligence he must alwaies be carefull and watchfull ouer the flocke wherof the Lord hath made him ouerseer with all willingnes and cheerefulnes not holding his office in respect of persons but doing his duetie to euerie soule as he will answere before the chiefe shepheard c. Ansvvere In this descriptiō of the pastors office as the author hath set down some things therein required so hath he lefte other matters pertaining by his own doctrine thereunto altogether vntouched for whereas he telleth vs of an Eldershippe wherein the pastor is the chiefe here is nothing mentioned of this matter as if the ecclesiasticall censure remained as peculiar vnto the Elders Againe forasmuch as he requireth in a pastor that hee exhort rebuke and conuince the gayne-sayers of wholesome doctrine hee doth confirme herein that which hath ben said concerning the Doctor for either this functiō is not in the publik place of Gods worship or else it doeth intrude into the pastorall charge so these offices would not be seuered and diuerse Thirdly seeing modestie humilitie meeknes c. are necessarie in a Pastor Doctor Elder aud all we seee howe vnfitte these men are to beare anie office in the Church of God considering how farre they are from modestie meeknes or ciuill honestie when they call the ministerie of England traitors to Christ the Popes bastardes wicked guides Antichrists c. VVhen the booke of common praier is tearmed a peece of swines flesh and the people of Englande generally are accounted persecutors of the church of God no Christians Lastly we may obserue that some of these testimonies of Scripture in the margent are not so fit as might bee to proue the office of a pastor For Nu. 12. 3. doth speake of the meeknes of Moses but his was not a pastorall charge Esa. 50. 4. setteth foorth the Prophets diligence Zach. 7. 11. complaineth of the peoples obstinacie but what are these to proue the office of a pastor The place that is quoted 1. Tim. 2. 20. because it is somewhat after the end of the chapter it shall be answered when that verse is found Brownist Their Doctor or teacher must bee a man apt to teach able to diuide the word of God aright and to deliuer sound and wholsome doctrine frō the same still bulding vpon the same grounde worke he must be mightie in the Scriptures able to conuince the gainsaiers and carefully to deliuer his doctrine pure sound and plaine not vvith curiositie or affection but so that it may
edifie the most simple approuing it to euerie mans conscience he must be of life vnreproueable one that can gouerne his owne household he must be of manners sober temperate modest gentle and louing c. Answere In this description of a doctor here is nothing differing from that which hath bin in the description of a pastor For as there no mētion was made of any ecclesiastical iurisdiction so here it is also passed ouer in silence as if he had neuer said that the pastor and doctor were gouerning officers And as there he requireth of a pastor the diuiding of the worde of God aright and the approuing of it to euerie mans conscience so doth he heere require the same in a doctor and both alike in the iudgement of our author are to execute their office without any difference either of the place or of the matter or of the manner of dealing then the which what can be more fond if he speaketh the truth in saying that these offices are limited seuered and diuers And lastlie as in the description of a pastor the scriptures were abused so in this of a doctor they are not friendly handled For these-places 1. Tim. 3. Tit. 1. 2. Tim. 2. 15. haue bene alleaged before for the pastor who being an ouerseer of Christs flocke hath not bene denied the vse of the Scriptures to decypher out his calling but in bringing the same in again for a Doctor it appeareth that the store is now spent wherof there was no spare in the beginning of this Treatise Also these 1. Cor. 1. 17. 2. 4. doe shew what Paul did in his Apostleship but the office of a Doctor is a distinct matter from the office of an Apostle therefore altogether impertinent vnto this matter are these testimonies vsed by the author Their Elders must be of wisdome and iudgement endued with the spirite of God able to discerne betweene cause and cause betweene plea and plea and accordingly to preuent and redresse euils alwaies vigilant and intending to see the statutes ordinances and lawes of God kept in the church that not only by the people in obedience but to see the officers do their duties These men must be of life likewise vnreproueable gouerning their own families orderly they must be also of maners sober gentle modest louing temperate c. Ansvvere The third sorte of gouerning officers in the Church are by our author called Elders concerning which name howsoeuer Caluine reporteth that in churches of former times some had this title giuen vnto them who onely were conuersant in the censure of the church yet is it generally in the Scriptures ascribed vnto them that laboured in the worde and sacraments as appeareth Tit. 1. 5. Act. 14. 12. 20. 17. in other places And therupon Caluin saith Quod Episcopos presbyteros pastores ministros promiscue vocaui qui ecclesias regunt idfeciex scripturae vsu quae vocabulaista cōfundit In that I haue without making difference named Bishops and Elders and Pastors and Ministers I haue done it according to the practise of the Scripture which confoundeth these wordes And Ierome sayth Veteribus eos omnino fuisse presbyteros quos Episcopos VVith those of ancient times the same men were Elders which were Bishops Therfore it is not so directly from the word of God as in the title of this booke is promised but from the practise of some churches that he hath taken this name Elder to giue it vnto those which beare office without anie further dealing in the ministerie of the word As the name Elder in this place is not vsuall in the word so the office of an Elder as it is here described hath neither warrant of the worde nor yet of any church whether ancient or of latter daies I graunt that certain churches haue made choice of men which shoulde deale onely in the censures of the church whom they haue called Presbyteros Elders But the most that they haue euer required in such an Elder was that he should be sound in faith in life vnreproueable able to discerne of the dealings of euerie calling in the church careful to see rightly into the same and readie to ioyne in correcting with ecclesiastical censure those that are vndutifull beeing helpfull vnto the rest But that it shoulde belong vnto them to discerne betweene cause and cause betweene plea and plea c. It is a plaine pulling of the svvorde out of the magistrates hand They meane no such matter they saie for they graunt the magistrate his authoritie ouer the persons though not ouer the causes of men This it is whereas her Maiesty hath appointed Iudges in the land to end causes decide controuersies to giue sentence vpon malefactors and shirifes to see the execution of that vvhich the Iudges haue determined the seat of iudgement must be brought into the consistorie of these Elders and the office of the Shirife must be onely lefte in the hande of the magistrate to see the decrees of these auncients put in execution Now tell mee if these men do not goe beyond Corah his companie as before vvas said yet I will leaue the further consideration of these matters vnto those whom they doe concerne onely let vs see vvhat warrants they haue out of the worde of God for the largenesse of this their commission Num. 11. 24. maketh mention of three score and tenne men which were chosen by the appointment of God to bee assistants vnto Moses but these were temporall magistrates and not ecclesiasticall Againe it sayth not that Moses was discharged and the authoritie of iudging betweene plea and plea remayned in the power of these men onely As like to purpose is Act. 15. where there is neither anie such authoritie mentioned as aforesayd nor yet such an office as an vnministering Elder spoken of For the worde Elders in that place doeth signifie those that labour in vvord and doctrine as hath beene noted before As touching that of Paul 1. Tim. 5. 17. An Elder is worthie of double honour especially such as labour in the worde and doctrine From whence is collected that there were some Elders which did not labour in the word and doctrine I answere that there was a time as before was saide when such Elders were in the church but when they had their beginning how long they cōtinued how far their office extēded The author hath neither in this place nor els where shewed At the first they were not as by that hath bene shewed may appeare Afterward it should seeme that some such were appointed for the secret meetings of the faithful whiles they were vnder persecution but when the church increased and was dispersed into nations as now it is in England we reade not that such were continued in the Church nay the contrarie is flatly testified For as Ierome sayeth Idem est Presbyter qui est Episcopus antequam diaboli instinctu
may bee confirmed And if hee refuse to heare them then to declare the matter vnto the church which ought seuerelie and sharplie to reprehend grauelie to admonish and louinglie to perswade the partie offending shewing him the hainousnesse of his offence and the danger of his obstinacie and the feareful iudgements of the Lord. If this preuaile not to drawe him to repentance then are they in the name of the Lord Iesus with the whole congregation reuerentlie in praier to proceed to excommunication casting him out of their congregation and fellowship that is out of the couenant and protection of the Lorde for his disobedience and obstinacie and committing him to sathan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirite may be saued in the daie of the Lorde Iesus if such be his goodwill and pleasure Further they are to warne the whole congregation and all other faithfull to hold him as a heathen and a publican and to abstaine them selues from his societie as not to eate or drinke with him c. vnlesse it be such as of necessitie must needs as his wife his children and family yet these if they be members of the church are not to ioyne with him in anie spirituall exercise All this notwithstanding the church is not to holde him as an enemie but to admonish and pray for him as a brother prouing if at any time the Lord will giue him repentance for this power is not giuen them to the destruction of anie but to the edification and preseruation of all If the offence bee publike the partie is publikely to be reproued and admonished if he then repent not to proceede to excommunication Vt supra The repentance of the partie must bee proportionable to the offence viz. if the offence be publike publike if priuate priuate humbled submissiue sorrowfull vnfeined giuing glorie to the Lord. There must great care be had of admonitions that they be not captious or curious finding fault where none is neither yet in bitternesse or reproch for they were to destroy and not to saue our brother but they must be carefully done with prayer going before they must be seasoned with truth grauitie loue peace Moreouer in this church is an especiall care had by euerie member thereof of offences the strong ought not to offend the weake nor the weake to iudge the strong but all graces here are giuen to the seruice and edification of ech other in loue and long suffring Answere I thought it conuenient to ioyne al this togither being but one matter viz. the proceeding of the church and of euerie member thereof Concerning the which I say with them that God hath not onely giuen a charge to euerie member of the church to looke vnto his steppes that he refraine from offending his fellow members least thorough his owne default the church be prouoked to proceed against him but also hath prescribed vnto the Church her order of proceeding which order I grant to be here set downe in part namely so long as the conuersations of men are in question but in matters of faith these rules will faile for although it be the nature of man to erre in his errors we may not depriue him of admonitions yet if his error do proue an heresie after once or twice admonitiō at the vtmost he is to be reiected For a simple error may be healed but peruersnesse is incurable and the manner of his reiection is not in a bare forsaking of him but in restraining him least that by his false doctrine the simple sort be seduced I speake not now of the Magistrates authoritie who was commanded by the Lord to cut off the false prophet but I speake of the ecclesiasticall power which hath his warāt for the suppressing of such the order of whose proceeding is first admonition then excommunication afterwards to make the magistrate acquainted both with this euill and with his duety in proceeding against it for I will not vrge that of master Bullinger who seemeth to go farther in asking this question viz. if the church had onely authoritie to flie from and not to chastice an heretike how came it to passe that the Apostle Paul by the power of God depriued Elimas of his sight bicause he did stubbernly maintaine falshood and withstand the truth But this point of discipline hath in wisedome bene passed ouer least that our author shuld therin haue blamed both our teachers and our Magistrates for their to much lenitie in this schisme and heresie Now as touching the florish that is made with a great shew of scriptures in the margent it is more then childish not in regard of applying them though one or two of them might be amended but in respect of the vaine alledging of one scripture often as Matth. 18. 15. 16. Leuiticus 19. 17. 18. Prou. 10. 12. c. but he would haue vs to thinke that he is read in the scriptures and therefore busieth himselfe with iterating so manie quotations Brownist In this church is the truth purely taught surely kept here is the couenant of the sacraments and promises the graces the glorie the presence the worship of God Into this Temple entreth no vncleane thing neither whatsoeuer worketh abhominations or lies but they which are written in the Lambes booke of life But without this church shal be dogges and enchanters and whoremongers and murtherers and Idolaters and whosoeuer loueth and maketh lies Answere Here we haue described vnto vs the state wherein this visible church doth stand both in regard of the conenant betweene God and it and also in respect of the sanctimonie thereof in the sight of men As for the former of these it is to be granted but howsoeuer the promises are made vnto the church and the worship approoued of God is kept and retained therein yet may it fall out that some one member thereof may haue no interest in the promises as Matth. 22. 13. nor yet be a true worshipper of God as Eccles. 4. 17 And although the church hath this dignitie giuen vnto it thorow an especiall grace yet some one man who is not of the visible church may be partaker of the promises and a true worshipper of God as Naaman the Syrian and Iob in the land of Hus the visible church then being among the people of Israel As touching the other matter viz. that this church apparant is commended vnto vs both for the puritie thereof in it selfe and also for the vncleannesse of all those which are not members of the same It is a palpable grosnes to conceiue a sottish follie to publish such a dreame For are al they cleane which enter into the visible church these men themselues haue confessed the contrarie Are all the members of the visible church written in the lambs booke of life who
not supreame head of the church neither hath authoritie to make lawes ecclesiastical in the church they must acknowledge a dissent of iudgment amongst themselues or else confesse that there was a time when they were of another opinion but now they haue learned to be more wise yet the caueat that is giuen hath a secret meaning viz. a granting of the latter part of this article that her maiestie hath no authoritie to make anie lawes ecclesiasticall But this being so closely couered I minde not to see it I conceiue the best namely that as they yeelde more to her maiestie then of former times they haue done so will they in time grant her that right which is due vnto her roiall authoritie Of the ninth article they saie that the lavves ecclesiasticall vvherevvith our assemblies are guided are not deriued from the booke of God but culled out from that great Antichrists canons orders deuillish pollicies c. that they are the execrable wares of Antichrist statuts of Omry not to be receiued or obeied of anie that loue the Lord Iesus This article then is maintained by these men and not vniustly imputed to them But as touching this grieuous accusation we are here also to call to minde that the lawes of God are onely perfect the decrees and statutes of men though holy yet haue their wants In regard wherof I doe acknowledge a want of perfection but the deformitie of these laws doth seeme greater partly by the meanes of such as shoulde dispose them more vprightly and partly by reason of others who haue a malitious eie in beholding and an enuious tongue in reproching them Vnto the tenth article they answere that they neither looke for the reformation of Babel our false Church for so they tearme it nor take vpon them to intermeddle with the magistrates swoord but all that will bee saued must forsake the false church and by repentance come vnder Christs obedience to serue God aright in his true church c. Neither may they neglect the seruice of GOD nor the practise of any parte thereof c. Though the Prince shoulde inhibite c. So that they affirme that of their owne authority they are not only to separate themselues from vs but also to prctaise the discipline which they haue fansied though her maiestie shoulde inhibite the one or commaunde the other so that this article is not wrongfully fathered vpon them But before this article be granted vnto them as a true position they must not onelie conuince our church as out of the which there ought to be a departure but also they must proue that a priuate man may attempt reformation in the church contrarie to that which hath bene spoken To the eleuenth article they saie first that the presbyterie may not excommunicate any person by their sole power seeing Christ hath giuen this power to the whole church This is made more plaine in an other place where one of them saith that the least member of the church that is a communicant hath as much interest in all the censures of the church as the pastor Secondly they affirme that the prince if he will be a member of the church must be subiect to the censure in the church The which two positions being considered it shall be needlesse to open what these men would haue but of the authoritie of a priuat man hath ben spoken sufficiently heretofore To the twelfth they answer roundly in this sort as for your religion church sacramentes c. vve haue before shevved the forgerie of them vnto the vvhich former articles I referre the reader Euen so do I for I purpose not palinodiam canâ—re onely I say that amongst these twelue articles there is not one wherewith they are abused or vniustly charged and therefore are their exclamations before mentioned vaine There are in the ende of the foresaid pamphlet other twelue articles not vnlike to the former which they tearme slanderous articles also forged against them as if they did not hold them which are these 1 THey hold that the Lords praier or anie set praier is blasphemie and they neuer vse anie praier for the Queene as supreame head vnder Christ of the church of England 2 That all set praiers or stinted praies or read seruice are but meere babling in Gods sight and plaine Idolatrie 3 They teach there is no head or supreame gouernor of the church of Christ and that the Queene hath none authoritie in the church to make lavves ecclesiasticall 4 They teach that a laie man may beget faith and that vve haue no need of publike administration 5 They condemne all comming to Church al preaching all institution of Sacraments and saie that all the ministers vvere sent by God in his anger to deceiue the people 6 They affirme that the people must reforme the church and not tarie for the magistrate and that the Primitiue church sued not to courts and parliaments nor vvaited vpon princes pleasures but vve make Christ to attend vppoÌ„ princes to be subiect to their lavvs gouernment 7 That the booke of common praier is a pregnant Idol full of abhominations a peece of svvines flesh and abhomination to the Lord. 8 They saie it is a greater sinne to go to the church to publik praiers then for a maÌ„ to lie vvith his fathers vvife 9 Those that vvil not refrain from our churches preaching or seruice they giue vnto the deuil excoÌ„municat 10 They hold it not lavvfull to baptise children among vs they neuer haue anie sacrament among them 11 They refuse to take an oath to be examined 12 They vvill not marrie amongst vs in our churches but resort to the Fleet to other places to bee married by one Greenwood and Barrow All which whether these men are vniustly blamed with them or do hold them as firme as they do the former Articles I leaue vnto the consideration of all men Their iudgemeÌ„t coÌ„cerning the two first articles hath bene set downe alredie for they do little differ from those two positions set downe in the former place Likewise concerning the third article we haue had their minde in the eight article so that it shall be needlesse either to shew again that those are by their desert imputed vnto them or that in maintaining theÌ„ their warrants be of smal force And the fourth article is so far from being an vngodly calumniation against theÌ„ y t they hold it not only a possible thing for a priuate man to beget faith but also lawfull for him to preach the word interpret the scriptures in publike assemblies Wherin a question might be moued what is the differeÌ„ce betwene him y t is Leitourgos a minister of Christ in their publike functioÌ„ euery priuate man in the congregation both hauing equall authoritie as well in preaching as in the censures of the church Also what these priuate men are to be esteemed in preaching whether ministers or no ministers vnto the people whom